Bitcoin Forum

Receiving Dwolla (when it comes) from MTGOX and trusted sellers should be safe.  It is unlikely that MTGOX will reverse the transaction. 

Dealing with unknown Dwolla buyers can be a different story.  Exchange after exchange has lost money due to Dwolla fraud.  Now that most exchanges are not accepting Dwolla deposits the fraudsters need new targets.  By stealing details of a bank account and linking it to Dwolla the fraudster can get away with a bunch of payments before they get reversed.  This message is not directed at anyone specific or any specific buyers or sellers. 

Buyers who have been around for 90 days using Dwolla should be a pretty safe bet. 

I assume this Dwolla thing works with direct debit?

In Poland, when a company wants to make a direct debit from a person's bank account, the person has to sign a paper form authorizing that specific company to make direct debits from his bank account and submit that form to the bank itself. And even then, well, a bank account owner can reverse a direct debit within 30 days, even if he authorized that company, and that is not fraud. He simply has to pay the bill to the company in a different way. Direct debit is only ever used for utility bills payment, nobody ever uses it for anything else.

What is used for other things, is well... a bank transfer (through something you call an ACH I think) its always initiated by the sending party - and that can't be ever reversed. All banks implement two-factor one-time-code authentication (usually through SMS) for sending an bank transfer through the ACH. Sniffing your web login/password is not enough, one would have to steal your mobile phone at the same time. So fraud is practically non-existent, maybe once a year in the whole country someone manages to trick a clueless used to send him the one-time codes, and then it makes nationwide news if this happens. Even then banks do not reverse the charges, as its the sending bank account owner's fault for not protecting his codes.

Don't you have something like this in the US?

In the US, almost everything using money in your bank account online is done with ACH. You enter in bank account info with a payment processor, they deposit a tiny sum of money in your bank account, then you give the payment processor the exact amount which was deposited and the bank account then becomes tethered to the payment processor account. At that point, withdrawals from the bank account are not necessarily initiated by the owner, as they are done by the payment processor, which often only require login information (or, for Dwolla, login info + a 4-digit PIN code) for such a transaction to be initiated.

It's slow, insecure, reversible (yes, ACH transactions ARE reversible as Dwolla well knows now, though you have to talk to someone at your bank and sign an affidavit), and obsolete, which is why Paypal is so popular -- it lets people use the very flawed credit/debit card system instead of using the awful ACH scheme. The financial systems in the US are junk.

Can individuals, from common individual accounts at the most popular banks in the US initiate an ACH transfer as the sending party?

Not the other side withdrawing money from your account, but you send a fixed sum to them (without giving them authorization to withdraw any more)?

And not through a "wire" costing over 10$, but a cheap/free ACH?

Is that commonly possible?

Or such functions are only in corporations accounts, and not individuals?

Most banks give you the option of Bill Pay to an individual, which either means they mail a physical check to them for you.  It is also possible to send money to someone by e-mail, where they then log in and enter their account information to receive the money.  There is also a way to setup transfers to other people's accounts if you know their account details (the least secure method, because the sender has to know your account and routing number, but from everything I've seen are only able to send money not withdraw)

I have seen some or all of these features at the few different bank accounts I have here in the US, and I'm pretty sure they all use ACH, which as I understand it is just a check, in electronic form.

Most of these things have a 2-5 day clearing window, unless you are moving money within the same bank, some of them make that instant.

dwolla put the 30 days verification period for money transfer to a merchant but this will not apply for private individuals so yes if someone will send you money to buy btc using dwolla you should first check if he or she has the 30 days verification pass.

anyway i'm glad to hear that dwolla its a target for scammers that means dwolla gain popularity. I remember the days when paypal was launched so the same story here. I trust dwolla will find a way to deal with all this but i don't think is so much fuzz. every company that offers money transfer has issues with such problems

What is this with US people saying that giving the sender your bank account and routing number is "unsafe"?

In Europe people often post their account number on their websites, its not considered any more "unsafe" then posting your phone number, and on auctions the account number is often posted in the listing description.

The only risks of giving out your account number (in Europe), are:

* if you get sued and lose, but don't pay - the debt collector will be able to find out in which bank you have an account in and order the bank to pay your debt from the account

* someone might spam your account with thousands of 0.01 transfers, LOL :) so your account history online will take a long time to load.

Are there other risks in the US with giving out your account number?

Fraudsters can make a fraudulent check against your account.  They can connect a Dwolla account to your checking account.  (this is harder now of course, they need to get online access to your bank statement)

Well my posting count is pretty lackluster but I have been here a few months. Let me just take this opportunity to say I fucking hate waiting 30 days just to be able to send my money to mt. gox. Thanks a lot you thieves, wherever you are.