Bitcoin Forum

i'm sorry if i'm hitting some nerves here because i know its a sensitive subject.  what are the disadvantages of POS and why is POW so important? POW is a fun game, but is all this expensive POW really necessary to keep a functional & secure coin? 

i just found this

The thing about PoS is that, while it is an interesting concept, it just isn't secure/fair enough. A PoW block provides security in that you know an amount of energy has been expended in generating it. A PoS block only shows that somebody has coins.
Fairness is a little more subjective, but still a major point. To incentivize "staking," there's usually an amount of "interest" (for lack of a better word) rewarded to the block finder. Now imagine that applied to Bitcoin, and how you would explain it to people:

Where do new coins come from?
People who already have coins. They generate new coins at no cost. People who have the most coins will generate the most new coins.
Isn't that exactly how things already work with fiat, but with 'coins' instead of money?
You're very insightful, rhetorical device.

what happy to BTC :(

The mining farmers are the first geniuses to figure out how to outcompete other miners. To the victor go the spoils. This is a celebration of capitalism!

POS =  single entity of millionaire who has amassed more than 51% would be more centralized and worse than a pow coin and everyone else saw their investment at the mercy of this millionaire

PoS coupons minted at mining, non-transferable, with wide distribution... could be the answer to the huge energy sink of PoW mining.

Like Auroracoin? Epic fail.

Actually my preferences tend to lean toward pow. But currently as what is happening right now giant farms with heavy equipment are in total control which means average joe like myself don't even have a chance at all. I still believe cpu mining where one cpu translates to one vote... just to ensure the coins are fairly distributed

This was just discussed to death here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=770591.0

No need for a new thread. Read that and than continue the conversation if needed.

Seems like various DPoS and PoS investors are spamming our forum lately.

Whoever said life is fair? All freedom and justice must be fought for. Grow a pair and figure out how to compete or go play kiddie games. Bitcoin is for the Big Boys now. Hehe, just kidding. The Big Boys haven't even started playing yet. If you want to play in the minor league you still need the chops. All you need is to live in a cold climate with cheap electricity and you can still compete. If you are like me and prefer to sit on tropical beaches and enjoy fruity drinks, then perhaps trading may be your game. For the rest of the slobs like I was once, my proof of work was a job that bought me bitcoins that I held because I believe in the principles it stands for and not as a get rich easy scheme. If you like your job and believe in something, your quality of life is already way ahead of most people. That is something worth fighting for.

what prevent the rich buying thousand of cpu and mining with it ?

POW was great in the beginning when anyone could mine with a CPU. POW has now been consolidated to directing your hashing power towards one of a handful of mining pools. These few pools now can control the network if they collude. What the incentive is may be less known and more damaging if they do, but nonetheless, the network can be controlled buy an elite few.

POS has the same problems as anyone with enough funds can buy their way into controlling the blocks.

DPOS has a similar problem as POS as you use your stake to "vote" block signers into position. I think, but could be wrong that DPOS doesn't allow you to use your stake to vote for a majority of signers. You would have to have multiple large stake holders colluding to overrun the system. Please correct if I am wrong.

I have 4 cpus at home and i can start mining. The rich slob down the road buys 1000 cpus and also mine. So in this scenario, i don't spend additional hardware and i still can get a chance. The cpu my kids use it for homework. One for gaming and another obsolete unit use for office works. Another unit just goes unused.

Turn the other way even though i can afford, i'm not going to get special rig just to mine.

So u see the difference?

Actually, I was thinking more like the BRO coin that's been announced.

And yeah and just look at the state of btc progress right now. If the distribution model at least get reached out to more people, it will be different. Tell me why u need faucets and tipping?

yes.... the rich dont buy they already have datacenter and yu dont have a chance

So explain how exactly you think there will be wide distribution.

The PoS coupons called Bergstake, will be distributed in the ICO and followed by a lengthy period of PoW cpu mining before the PoS kicks in.  In the interest of full disclosure, I am associated with the BRO coin.  I'd love to hear your opinion on the model cbeast.  Perhaps I can give you more info in a pm. Don't want to derail this thread with what may be construed as a pitch.  ;D

You are not derailing the thread. In fact I love it when people think they can reinvent the wheel. So you claim that you have a CPU mined coin.   We've already seen claims like this where they release a cpu source code, but they secretly have a GPU code to gain an early advantage. CPU miners will think that the coin is just very popular. That combined with the ICO will give the creators a guaranteed majority stake. Even early Bitcoin GPU and ASIC developers mined a lot of bitcoins this way and made a lot of money, but at least they didn't gain a permanent majority.

yo, its just a CryptoNote clone.. so its as CPU mined at CryptoNote is.

his point is about Proof-of-Bergstake. which is innovative and new.. and fixes Nxt and peercoin issues.  BRO

 ;) ;) ;)

CryptoNote is GPU mined, (http://cryptomining-blog.com/tag/cryptonote-gpu-miner/) but anyway I can already see holes in the Proof of  I-was-an-early-adopter-because-I-had-a-GPU-miner scheme. The fact that stake comes from proof that you were a miner is just as fallible as pure stakeholders. It has many other weaknesses, but I'll wait until it's fleshed out more so I don't keep getting "oh, we already fixed that so it will be in the next version."

your on

Need something to secure the network and payment system.

PoS works similar to how the fed print money, I don't see why anyone want to go back to the old system.

it works for non-currency only blockchains .. like DACS

When you consider that 3600 new bitcoins are being generated every day, the market cap hasn't gone down as much as you think when averaged over the last 8 months since Gox collapsed.

When you say that you need 10k BTC to retire, what do you intend to do with them, dump them? I'm curious why you think you need X amount.

I have 6 old computers.  I can use them all to mine bitcoin and not ever get a bitcoin.  It basically is a complete waste of money and electricity to try to mine with anything that is not specialized hardware (asics). 

Now with PoS, anybody's old computer can support the network.  Even a Ras Pi an be a node. 

PoW = Spend a lot of money on computers and electricity to get coins through at a 98% predictable rate as you join a good and big pool.

PoS = Spend money directly on coins and buy them at a 100% predictable rate and not waste money on computers and electricity.

Both have block chains. 

PoW usually just have a blockchain and little esle.  Sometimes 2nd party platforms can piggyback on PoW
 
PoS has a ton of options and services in addition to the traditional blockchain

The problem with PoS is that if you buy a lot of coins then you could attack the network without anyone knowing, sell the coins plus your ill gotten gains and the scam coin will be damaged once it is realized that an attack took place. With PoW you need to invest in machines that mine so if you attack the network you can sell your ill gotten gains but the future earnings potential from your machine will be greatly reduced so you would have an incentive to not attack the network

I have heard this said before and a lot of people talk about it in theory, but I wondering has the theory ever been put to the test. 

I know for a fact many PoW coins have been taken over and destroyed by a malicious actor, but I have still yet to hear about a single PoS coin being harmed in the way described.  And this is in a world where sooooooo many fake PoS coins are released just for pumps.  Can anybody confirm a real world example of a PoS that was actually "51%" attacked by a person that bought a bunch of coins and then used them to attack the network?  If so, I would definitely like to read more about it. 

Read the statements carefully again. It changing to pow - cpu mine. That would provide some advantage to an average joe. With current scenario, cpu don't even stand the slightest chance at all. Not even single bit. Everybody knows about that.

There is too much focus on comparing the cost to 51% attack PoW coins vs the cost 51% attack to a PoS coin. There are many attack vectors to consider from bugs in code (heartbleed), DDoS, Sybil attack, NAS attack, Timewarp attack, Addition Attack, Modification Attack, Race attack, Vector76 attack, Brute force attack, ect....

There may not be any examples of 51% attacks directly on a PoS currency as those are relatively new examples with large initial stakeholders who have strong vested interests in not attacking their own assets but there are plenty of examples of other attacks and weaknesses that any user and investor should be concerned with.

An example - NXT was attacked before it was even launched. The creators of Nxt botched what could have been viewed as a fair initial launch by changing the dates and not waiting till there was a greater distribution list before closing the IPO. This will forever taint the public and investors perception of nxt and is a social attack on the integrity of the currency.

As far as BTSX is concerned, there are many weaknesses within DPoS , one of them I have yet to mention, but is being carried out as we speak right now by Invictus and many of the early investors against their own currency. BTSX shareholders like to promote certain qualities of BTSX/BitUSD but behind closed doors there are negotiations happening as we speak between Invictus and some large banks.

I am not suggesting that Bitcoin is impervious either, in fact I'm suggesting that all crypto-currencies are extremely fragile from internal and external attacks. I am merely suggesting that the way in which PoS/ DPoS promoters talk about security is very naive when they insinuate that they are so much more secure than Bitcoin.

PoW coins are slowing going out of fashion it seems.

All the new coins are PoS based and some are doing quite well.

You will never read about that scenario happening, because no one is dumb enough to buy 51% stake in an eco-system, then proceed to destroy their own stake and wealth. It's like burning your own money. Well if you do, then the rest of stakeholders would thank you for it, you just made their stake 100% more valuable by destroying your own stake, because the attacking stake will soon be blocked by community consensus and rendered unusable forever.

On the other hand, with the PoW mining farms, nearly nothing can be done to stop them from attacking any PoW network that they can overwelm with their hardware, as you already seen in the death of many PoW altcoins.

This naturally makes sense, PoW alts can't properly secure themselves anymore because of either Scrypt Asics, botnets, or simply not having the hashing power of Bitcoin. I expect many PoW alts to start failing and continue decreasing in market share because of this. Look how litecoin just recently lost number 2 in market cap -- http://coinmarketcap.com/

The exception to this are coins that depend upon the security of bitcoin blockchain like coloredcoins , counter-party, mastercoin, and namecoin.

There's nothing to stop a well funded and determined attacker to attack Bitcoin's PoW network in the same fashion, it's still only cost 10% of Bitcoin marketcap to attack. That's extremely cheap compared to buying 51% stake in a PoS eco-system.

PoS bag holders sound like communist party politicians. They say that working is at an end if you will join their party. They then proceed to violently assault the business leadership  (PoW miners) in the community and use intimidation to scam their property. I prefer an honest days work for an honest days pay.Thanks, but no thanks Mr. Chairman.

What if the stakeholders attacked their own currency unintentionally by falsely believing their actions would benefit their currency? Is this not a real possibility that is unfolding itself right now with Bitshares which may happen as soon as 1Q 2015 with a very real marketing plan that is being negotiated with certain banks?

Or are you going to insist that PoS/DPoS is immune?

Not sure what you mean, you'll need to talk in more detail how is this an attack on their own currency, how do you know with certainty that something is a false benefit, while stakeholders believe otherwise?

Are you unaware that many large BTSX/PTS stakeholders, and Invictus developers are currently right now negotiating a marketing affiliate plan with banks which will be likely funded either with another direct or indirect method of devaluation of everyone's stake ?

Again you have to give me more detail, links maybe? I'm not aware of any plans to devalue stakes.

Why do you need the evidence, DPoS is immune to attacks, right? I'm surprised you are unaware, aren't you a delegate? It is happening soon as well, as early as 1Q 2015!
I would rather have you reflect and think critically about security rather than handing you the details on a silver plate. Some self reflection about security is just what you need
and if I hand over the links I fear you will just rationalize them.

I am not spreading FUD either and if you are willing to wager a friendly BTC I can provide the evidence for you to back up my statements.

This is probably not true (LOL) however it is a good point that the large stakeholders could potentially all be the same person (or group of people working together) who can potentially attack the network for free.

If it does not cost anything to mine then it does not cost anything to attack the network

No, they would sell the stake and THEN attack it.  that's the issue.  the attacker acts as if they still had that stake and it was the point in time just prior to selling.  and there's very little cost to do it unlike pow hashing.  that's the infamous NaS problem.

How do you sell 51% stake in an eco-system, and then attack it? I don't see how that is even possible. The selling alone would take months, and would alert the community already. Your theory is a imagined scenario, that can not be done in reality, that's why it has never happened in reality.

So far you have presented me zero proof of your claim, so I would just have to take it as a rumor then. Your argument is therefore invalid, because you have created yet another imagined scenario that doesn't exist in reality. I know you have a vivid imagination from prior discussion.

doesn't need to be 51%.  plus I can sell coins/shares and simply publish my private keys afterward.  now anyone has those keys at that point in time.  

What's the point of publishing the key afterwards? the stake is already gone, you can't attack with non-existent stake.

Ha. I clicked on this going "I'm sure Kokojie will be right on this", and bam there it is.. haha derp

An argument from ignorance? It's a shame that you are unaware of something so big and important with BTSX, being that you are a delegate and all.

I already sent the evidence to BTCmoons and willing to send it to any other known member that requests it that isn't a BTSX advocate. The reason I simply don't paste the evidence here is I want you to think critically about security in general and don't want to derail this thread and make make it about focusing of criticizing Bitshares as I have nothing against that project personally.

It is also to make a point how something important may happen within a DPoS coin without a portion of the delegates even being aware. How does that happen?

sure you can.  I guess you don't understand the NaS attack.  That's the essense of it. 
longest-chain-wins is the mechanism for distributed consensus.  time stamping isn't used
because consensus would be lost, and nodes have no way of "looking back in time". 

Pos - all new coins they say are Pos based. :) Better be sure than end up crying.

I really don't understand as of now, why PoW will have to fail. And on the other hand, I don't understand how PoS is inherently more unsafe than PoW! Is there a really simple, concise explanation of those things???

In all IPOs, you should assume the worst case - 51% stake in a PoS exist at start, so extremely cheap

Proof of Work, It says it all right there. A proof that fair work has been done. If you dig a ditch you can proof the work has been done but you will have a hard time exchanging it, Bitcoin takes care of this. If you used a shovel or a digger is irrelevant its a matter what is the best economic choice.  
Miners purpose is to mine and thats it just like a gold miner is mining to sell to have a functional business and just keeps a small amount for the lean times. A miner invest in machinery and a lot of other thins and not in gold/bitcoin, another investor will do that.
Bitcoin is a commodity, it is modern Gold the currency aspect of it is just a added bonus just like gold is legal tender (depending on jurisdiction). Money is not something you buy like a ripple cost nothing to produce and millions are given to the banks for free, and you can buy some, lol. That system sound familiar. Why would anyone pay for something which cost nothing to produce, is not scarce as it can be copied endlessly and it does not matter when its started.
Increase the market cap by 100B with the push of a button from $ 40 000  000 to $ 140 000 000 is literately worse scam than the the FED. Zero transparency, corporate centralized at least 92%  of available still to be sold at any price which is dreamed up. Oh yeh give it to me baby a dream come true.

1. even when Bitcoin coin supply is zero, PoW is still needed in order to secure the network, therefore PoW has nothing to do with cost of producing Bitcoin. Bitcoin is not gold, PoW miners are not real miners. Real mining is required to extract gold, PoW mining is NOT required to produce Bitcoin, a PoS mining network could do the same thing, with nearly zero cost.

2. PoW's work is useless and meaningless work, there's no value in it. PoW extracts value from the Bitcoin eco-system, because Bitcoin eco-system is where the value is at, not the PoW network.

3. PoS can secure the network better than PoW, it's a proven concept as many PoW altcoins fall victim to 51% attack, and PoS altcoin are all secure and not attacked.

4. PoS re-invest in the community and eco-system, PoW extracts value out of the eco-system, and into the pockets of the mining interest group (miners/pools/hardware vendor/electric company). This is again a proven concept, as PoS eco-systems are rising to the top of coinmarketcap.

Satoshi is smart and a visionary, but he is not God, he can not foresee everything and solve all problems, otherwise we'd already have Bitcoin core 1.0 five years ago.

Do you really consider PoS networks more secure than PoW?

even when you can attack the network at zero cost with PoS?

I dont know if post is troll or not


I see now from your other posts you simply dont know understand how PoS works.. it is ok, when the attack happens and your coins are worthless maybe you will change opinion :)

Go attack one and show me then? Until you could show me how you could attack one in reality, the fact is still many PoW network has been attacked to death, and ZERO PoS network has been successfully attacked.

I think just the contrary, when Bitcoin PoW is attacked, and your Bitcoins are worthless, maybe you will change opinion. Because PoW network are PROVEN to be easily attacked, it's just a matter of time, that a well funded and determined attacker will attack Bitcoin PoW network.

On the other hand, no PoS network has been successfully attacked in reality, so I will believe it when I see it.

Even without any attack, if there's no inflow of capital, Bitcoin's price will go toward zero due to the PoW expense. Basically constant inflow of capital is required, to support the Bitcoin price.

Have you figured out the devaluation plan on BTSX yet, or do you want me to IM you the link?

Sure, pm me the info if you can't post it.

Just ignore him. I don't know or care why he suddenly forked from Bitcoin. He ignores your points and stuffs you with strawmen or slaps you with red herrings. Whatever the reason, he spends way too much time in the Bitcoin forum talking about altcoins. PoW is work. You hit the nail on the head. He is basically saying that the value of work diminishes after the work is done (an old prostitute adage), which is true, but that's why we put value on it immediately and pay for it. PoS gets paid by debt which is a zero sum game. That's the subtle difference. If a miner doesn't work he doesn't get paid and vice versa. Successful miners work more efficiently than non. PoS would only if a government backs it with compounded debt.

Maybe it is a purchased account by someone trying to pump PoS shitcoins?

I agree, that PoS does not give the "miners" anything of value in exchange for their "stakes" as almost everyone essentially gets the same reward.

I would say that people who advocate for PoW are people who are willing to work for their money/earnings while PoS supporters advocate for the government to provide welfare to them in exchange for nothing

Some rigorous research into POS, which includes some findings relating to the so called "Nothing at Stake problem" has been published >>> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=897488.0

You can play with the models used to get the findings yourself. There is still some questions to answer (which will be done in subsequent papers) but the authors found "it's nearly impossible to attack a proof-of-stake currency with '1% stake even' as stated by Buterin".


Please comment in the thread >>> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=897488.0 to hopefully get a good quality discussion going for the benefit of the crypto scene, let's leave tribalism at the door.

I have not bought POS COIN.So some advice to me please.
What Pos COIN  do you most reccomend the best?

Bitcoin and Proof of Work. Bitcoin is based on a POW (Proof of Work) system where the probability of mining a block is dependent on how much work is done by the miner. A proof-of-stake (POS) systems varies in that a person can “mine” depending on how many coins they hold.