Bitcoin Forum

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I am reminding you guys some relevant facts:

1) Paypal is accepting bitcoins
2) Bill Gates declared to be a bitcoin fanboy, very interested in its technology. (So bad he can't own it! Ha)
3) A bitcoin ETFs will be launched soon in Wall Street.
4) SecondMarket is a bitcoin trust with over 70Millions in investments.
5) Pantera Capital has been dealing in bitcoins since the beginning.
6) Even if you don't like it, companies offering user friendly insured wallets popped up in our ecosystem such as Xapo and Circle. Both have substantial investments behind and their products are quite impressive.
7) Assholes such as Butterfly Labs and MtGox are gone. Amateur time is over.

Any other reason comes to mind?
I think these are already quite plenty.

Mathematical certainty of bitcoin's future dominance comes to mind.

Bitcoin has serious flaws.  The blockchain size and the block time.   Other coins are going to rise up, each having mathematical certainty.  Other reasons?

There are better protocols than TCP/IP and IPv4.
And yet we are still using them. Ask yourself why, and you might understand why such "flaws" might actually be irrelevant.

network effect

It's not easy to upgrade from IPv4 to IPv6.  It's not easy AT ALL to move from TCP/IP to another protocol.

Very easy to move from bitcoin to futurexxxcoin.  It's a simple program on a machine that you can delete.  Install another.

Precisely

@Vod, you clearly still don't get it. Your answer is ironically self-defeating, it proves my point.

It's ecosystem is at the progress of becoming mature. Bitcoin startups attract many venture capitals to invest specific projects to offer useful application in our daily lifes. Such coinbase,bitpay as bitcoin payment processor are providing accepting bitcoin payment solution for merchants. Circle provides bitcoin bank service for global customers.

No it's not.  Those are just words you use to try and make your point.   ;)

I wasn't expecting to get this from vod, but like it or not what he said is partially right.

As of:


We can't predict the future. Be careful of what prediction you make.

I'm not dissing bitcoin - I still hold a considerable amount.

I'm just pointing out what I consider the substantial flaws.  


Agreed 100%  :)

yeah! there's a reason big companies are adopting it, despite the price plunge

No, Vod.
The reason that TCP/IP is not easily replaceable is exactly whats gonna happen with bitcoins adoption.
The key word being adoption and its network effect.

If bitcoins are widely adopted as a standard, it will be as hard to replace as TCP/IP.
Bitcoins have a very big advantage over the altcoins, which is the headstart and the support from industry giants already.

TCP/IP might have been easy to replace in the Arpanet, not so much now.
Replacing bitcoins will be harder and harder, and we will adapt around its flaws, as long as there isn't a fatal bug discovered that destroys the confidence of its design... Or a new disruptive technology arises. But even in that case, the new disruptive technology will have a very hard time convincih old users to switch over. And the harder it will be the later they come to market.

I am surprised that I had to spell it out.

Companies don't care about the price. Exchanges and tools like bitpay allow them to instantly convert bitcoins to FIAT. To me, they don't even accept bitcoin as a payment even if they do. Essentially it's the exchanger that accepts the bitcoin as a payment through the fees and the company that cooperates with them gets to hold onto fiat.

Itis the first cryptocurrency. 
Nearly all crypto exchanges are using bitcoin as a medium of exchange.

Why are you surprised?  The vast majority of people here are not network engineers.

Nothing I said requires an engineering degree to be understood.
Replace the TCP/IP example with vhs and betamax.
Cassette vs. DAT.
Mp3 vs. Flac.

Also don't forget that the flaw of the blockchain size can be solved and there are already alternatives to the core wallet. So home users don't even need to deal with downloading a file of 20Gb. As of transaction times, there are ways to secure even zero confirmation transactions. TCP/IP which you mentioned are not flawless, and not fully flexible. But the internet flexes around it's flaws perfectly creating a fully functional environment. To me bitcoin has the potential to do this as well.

I'm a network engineer as of 2006 - which means I understand what you are saying -  but I don't have an engineering degree. 

All the means is I can understand bullshit.  Bitcoin suffers from a long block time (10m) and a large block chain (20gb). 

Please tell me how I am mistaken using you non-engineering degree words.  :)

So how is that any different than using a bank?  If you use an alternative, you are not in control of your coins.

No such thing as certainty. God plays dice with the universe.

I edited my previous post.
If you fail to understand that, well let me tell you that you might fail to understand that this is not an engineering problem. It is about market adoption, that's where your engineering obsession is failing you.

In any case, I think I made this point quite clear and everybody else got it except you, Vod.

Is English your second language?
Either that or you are purposefully trolling by using red herring fallacies like crazy.
By alternatives to the core wallets, he doesn't mean online wallets. You do realize there are other wallets such as armory or electrum?

Sorry, you added the bold part after I had replied.

Anyone can replace their VHS with BETAMAX with interfering with VHS users.
Anyone can replace their cassette tape with DAT without interfering with cassette users.  
Anyone can replace their MP3 files without interfering with those who still use Flac.

Now...

You cannot replace TCP/IP with another protocol without interfering with other who use TCP/IP.
In order for your protocol to work, you will need to displace everyone else and convince them to use your protocol.

Hope this helps.

Nope, I am an English major.

Sorry that you have decided to insult to win your case - I won't be contributing further.  :(

 

You clearly have no idea of what you are talking about.

Ok.  :)  I'll take this as the win.  Thanks.  :)

Personally i would say the flaws about tx time is too obvious. Until we solve that over the counter world wide adoption is nit going to happen. I'm talking bout the average joe on the street trying to buy something by swiping their phone, get the goods and then exit the store immediately.

Bitcoin is still top by virtue because they are the first and because of that have a huge head start compared to other coins. But dont be so sure if they will remain top for years down the road. I'm still holding onto my coins because things are picking up after paypal announcement and but don't bet this will remain. if there is an alt that provides far superior technology i don't mind putting what i have into it

What vod said has a point. Sometimes we are a believer who so strong focus on something until that level even any weakness we will just decide to brush it aside. Any bad thing pointed out is seen as a challenge and met with fierce aggression and labeled as trolling. I can name a number of members who also fit into this.

Seriously in order for a coin to progess we must be willing to admit and cohesively agree to address this issue. Until then it will just be it is until the day it flops

From now on it will be all about timing.
Network effect is everything. The superior technology will have to arrive before bitcoins achieves major adoption.
And we will have to see if systems like circle or Xapo will actually help towards bypassing the tx speed for the end consumer.

i agree with that and i would have 100 more reasons to be bullish  ;)

but its interesting to see how "quiet" it is since the price dropped. its like in paradise:

http://heilpraktiker-dressler.de/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Mann-in-H%C3%A4ngematte-10057893_s.jpg

Fortunatelly determining how secure are different zero confirmations can be done in software. Right now you have check all the info and see how risky the particular zero confirmation is

the white-collar boys have no alternative to put their funds in - so they pick the one which are most talked about

aka: that surely must be the best bet ehh?

Decentralized currency needs public ledger, so you can compress or whatever but you need big storage the bigger the currency use is.

Anyone knows what s ETA on ETF fund?

no. could be 6-20 months.

bitcoin is here to stay. maybe not for everday payment but for many other things
- transfering value very fast and cheap to anybody around the world
- secure store of value which is accessible everywhere on the world

these two points are enough to make the decision to buy bitcoins

I agree with VOD here.

However, if we are comparing credit cards (not designed for digital/internet use) with bitcoin.
Even with BTC flaws, it blows credit cards out of the water.

Just wait until every available credit card number has been leaked, hacked and compromised and consumers have to spend at least one day a month reversing all of the fraudulent charges from their accounts.  

Bitcoin is an extremely easy sell because early adopters got it where it is today.
When merchants and consumers are fed up with what is, they can start dabbling in what comes next - and we've delivered a new way of doing things.

After that, comes innovation - and like VOD said, there will be better tech - because it will be demanded.

I would suggest not being an activist for Bitcoin - but for whatever spawns in its wake.

My prediction (even though it doesn't matter much) is that Bitcoin will endure.  But it will serve a higher institutional use.  Something above the consumer infrastructure.
Something else that is faster and more nimble will compete with Visa/Mastercard.

That's another great point. Bitcoin provides a fully automated network that can replace time consuming procedures you have to go through for using a credit card. Let alone that it's more secure if used correctly.

Agreed. Market manipulation right now, plain and simple... The manipulators make bag holders and want you to sell so they can scoop up all the cheap coins and then drive the price back up. Rinse and repeat. Smart money is buying right now, not selling...

Every time this happens we get the parrots squawking about how Bitcoin is dead and about how many problems it has. Ignore them.

Considering how the newbies are freaking out, I think there's no need for manipulation besides the known market forces (eg.: merchants still have to convert their btc, relatively small number of users, uncertain regulations, etc).

Anyone who believed in the potential of this system welcomes the downtrend in my opinion. Personally, I've been buying in smaller amounts from $450 in  ~$50 decrements and plan to do this even if we go below 200 (or for that matter to 0).

For the ones who are uncertain I would advise to sell (all/some) as they clearly ignored the warnings about volatility or bought too many.

Is anyone know why BTC is so low ATM, only 308$ on BTC-E? sorry because some days i didn't access to the crypto world.

I allready lost alot the 150$ worth I bought last week @ 455.79 CAD is now worth 112.18 CAD (was 140) completly screwed me over this drop I really really hope it goes back up... atleast make it worth 130.. sucks so bad

Start using those BTC to accumulate more BTC.
If/When the price goes back up, you'll have more.
 ;D

I think I am screwed.. never ment to have the btc this long.. Spent all the money I had/have on it :(

i see that you are a "Legendary" member but maybe you missed something here? there are already solutions for that and there will be more ways to deal with that.  ::)
these 2 points are the easiest problems.

It is actually ridiculous to hear such a contradicting guy.

I am not so sure about market manipulation. The life cycle of the value of something like bitcoin is something that economists have likely never seen before as it is essentially the first of it's kind.

I think what we are seeing now is people selling via merchants who would not have otherwise sold. This is resulting in the miners having more of an incentive to sell because their costs are denominated in dollars (electricity).

I think the above will also result in more merchants start to accept bitcoin which will lead to more short term price declines. However over the long term it will lead to more people adapting bitcoin and using it on a regular basis which will cause long term price increases.

And now is the prime time of adaption, companies will buy in due to low prices and expect to make ROI in the future. I'm expecting the boom any day now :)

For broad acception a low price is advantageous, or does anybody out here is buying grocery using gold bars?

Even seen two long term forum users shying back from a bet over 0.1 BTC since the wager would have to be over some several weeks and nobody would know the value of the wager. This uncertainity was enough to step down from doing so.

We are now below 300 USD

Maybe one day I will have a chance to buy 10K coins and get into top 100 ;D ;D

It's still very easy to move from bitcoin to any alt-coin, try it and see the difference ;)

jeje +1 man, btw about whats teh reason to hold it, this is so simply, because ppl who want to hold it beleive on it... and i mean that they think that BTC will grow up soon or later.

Cheaper coins, wider will adoption go. More people will buy BTC.  Perfect for all.  If bitcoin would be 1 million dollars, then only Bill Gates would be able to afford it. Adoption would totally stop then.

It depends on how people receive such news.
For bitcoiners it may look cheaper bitcoins.
For the laymen it looks like market failure.

going from bitcoin to a scamcoin you will open up yourself to potentially lose money from an attack on the network and will almost certainly lose money from value depreciation of your scamcoin.

When you go from IPv4 to IPv6 you are gaining more features and will have more security

If every one just simply buy and hold the coin for a couple of years and then spend them slowly, it will guarantee a price appreciation long term wise. This is just simple math, as sound as bitcoin's protocol

True, but similar trends have happened in the past, so might not always mean cheap coins for the bitcoiners. A lot of the laymen argue and do not understand the high price of the coin.

The problem here is not how hard it is to switch.
But if it will be worth to switch. That is what network effect is about.

Yes, you can switch over to laserdisc.
But how many people did switch from vhs to laserdisc?
Very few, why? Because they couldn't really find many titles to watch, why? Because not many people was adopting it.

The network effect of bitcoins will have the same effect.
You might be able to exchange it to litecoins or dogecoin, but if there aren't stores that accept it and there are no people who wants it, nobody will be exchanging it to that currency.

On the other hand, if another currency becomes popular (let's say dogecoin), regardless of how inferior it is technically, if it becomes extremely popular commercially, it will become dominant.
The only thing that matters is the network effect, its adoption rate.

The moment to compete against bitcoins is right now.
If there isn't a challenging altcoin in the following years, it will be really hard, even impossible, to take bitcoin down.
There are two aspects that fuels the network effect: a new conformity and a cognitive inertia.

What's the network effect of USD?  Think any crypto can overcome that?

The network effect of USD is shrinking and slowly being replaced by bilateral currency agreement with China RMB.

Not at all. Tons of people outside of the US are using the USD as a store of value because its relatively stable compared to whatever their country has.

Yes even China, Brazil. India Russia and South Africa. But what wil happen when suddenly all of them dump it?

That same happening presently known Bitcoin. ;)

Mathematical? uhm...so you can easily prove it!

This is interesting. Let me contribute to this line of thought as I may know IP&all a little bit:
- most service providers today can offer you IPv6 service alongside your IPv4 service and these can work along side fine.
- you won't get more security with IPv6, possibly even less than IPv4 as for IPv6 there is no standard for NAT/PAT, which gives you 99% of security in IPv4 due to fact it hides your devices from the Internet.
- there are some new features that you do get from IPv6 but nothing spectacular, well autoIP is really nice.
- biggest change is that w. V6 you have 128 bit addresses which means every device can have Internet wide IP address, but...
- ... apart from your Win/Lin/Mac PC almost none of your other devices supports V6.

- most big companies have IPv6 servers on web, but not all.

So you see network effect or not, switching to V6 solves no immediate pain and is therefore unlikely to happen.

In contrast VHS solved a big problem that LaserDisc had as you could record/copy tapes and consumers liked that.

So to the point: Bitcoin has great features, however one thing that is cannot do with it is taking it to the supermarket and instantly pay for groceries. (which is what you can do with most credit/debit cards) Don't look at network effect features of Bitcoin vs. AltCoins. Bitcoin ultimately competes with other payment systems which have enormous network effect, so to bread through Bitcoin must have a KillerApp.

I also don't think positioning Bitcoin "above" consumer level will do any good. Bitcoin must be good for consumer level transactions and only then will it have a chance to compete.

Down trend has not broken. Don't fight the tape.

They probably will not dump the dollar anytime soon. The reason for this is because there is no viable alternative to the dollar, also many of these countries do not have a stable economy and would experience large swings in prices if they abandoned the dollar.

the above reasons, I think it is appropriate to have to withstand sell bitcoin now, at this particular time bitcoin prices are likely to go down, you should hold to sell bitcoin, you must wait until the bitcoin prices rise again ... :)

ehm...coff coff.

nothing?

GE coins are a perfectly viable alternative: the empire would merely need to swap-out those states' USD for GEC.

Having a good night sleep is better than holding something that can explode anytime.

I don't think that GE coins are a real altcoin. GE has no reason to make their own crypto currency as running one would cost them money when they can simply issue stock to use as currency

Patient will pay off big time for those who believe in bitcoin.

Nahh its not about that. The problem with Bitcoin is the average joe still doesn't see a reason to get their heads (and fiat) around it and use it. Why? simple, they dont need to. Everything they need can be done with fiat. So basically what we need is the powers that be bitchslaping us all a bit more until people realize keeping all of your money in your bank is suicidal. Once they realize this, who are they going to trust, some random new coin or the most solid coin? there.

Until when?

Down trend has ended. Buy while you still can.

See this (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=776426.msg8751393#msg8751393). ::)

If you held before then you dont have anything to buy with.

Wow, I didn't think you were serious. I guess people are always coming up with ways to try to make a few bitcoin with a new altcoin

(Why does no one believe the GE to be a real thing? [Haven't they heard of "grass-roots" politics‽ ???])

It is a knock off of General Electric. People will assume that the company GE made the coin even though it was made by someone very different from GE.

There, "GE" is short for "Great Empire" (as in, Great Empire of Earth).

Until the next bitcoin boom

How many user here holding since January and still around?

me

Will the price rise to 10K in 2015  ???

I think that OP is right that Bitcoin has a lot going for it.

I especially like that weak or sloppy business are burning up.

VOD is right though. As far as a tech goes, it's pretty awesome but has a few serious issues to be examined.

Between 10K to 100K
Depends on how many industries it disrupts.

Me too!
And I buyed @ 1000  :-[

100K  :o
Unbelievable
It's 100x ROI

Today's prices is 1000x return for many of us who have been since the beginning.
If prices jumps to 10K USD would be 10000x or higher.

lol, January is not that far back. You wil find many here if you will ask how many hold from 2012.

It is really not realistic to expect the price of bitcoin to continue to rise as it has in recent years. We are already starting to see the 'law of large numbers' take effect in restricting how far up the price of bitcoin can rise. I do think the price of bitcoin will rise in the future however I do not think we will see the huge increases that we have seen in the past

I guess it will take a lot longer for price increases to happen.

Unless we have a china syndrome version 2, when India starts adopting bitcoins.

HODL BUT CODL!

K not ever selling my coins anyways  :) hold them tight.

codl?

Hodling hard until it reach $10,000...

And what will you do if that never happen?

Will you sell if the price keep falling?

If 99% of BTC are being held by people who believe BTC to be worth $1,000 or even more, and 1% are being traded back and forth between a minority of the population at $300-$400 each, what is the real value of BTC?

I don't think majority of the people believe price to be $1000, if not the price will already be close to that..

It doesn't matter if a majority of people believe the fair price should be $1000. What matters is will they act on their belief and spend fiat to buy bitcoins because they think it is undervalued?

Beliefs and opinions are irrelevant against the forces of the market.
I might think that gravity sucks, but that doesn't change the fact that I am stuck on Earth.
The same with the market, it is irrelevant if your belief is that it is worthless if there are millions of dollars being poured to the bitcoin ecosystem. The market will react regardless of your or anyone's beliefs.

Yours is a labor theory of value (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value).

Wtf

Extrinsic valuation does not, necessarily, prove so hailed of intrinsic sacrifice therefor.

HODLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!

Main reason to hodl is that in 2016 there will be the halving and price will increase up a lot.

Like from $50 to $100?

like you, I can not know price of bitcoin in the next future which will be. but, i can suggest you that there is an high possibility that price will increase.

Again, wtf^2

"People don't care about what you 'give up,' but about what they stand to gain."

WTF^3

That "there are millions of dollars being poured to the bitcoin ecosystem" does not mean that it is suddenly, because of that, more valuable to consumers.

There are only 21 million of them, so hold...

And this is why Bitcoin adoption is doomed...

And when do you think will that happen?

Next Year