Bitcoin Forum

If you have 1000 BTC and you want to deposit it and get some % but you need good guarantee that this BTC will return to you.

I can provide such deposit with 100% guarantee... How? BTC will never leave your wallet... Watch this...

!!!IMPORTANT!!! You neither change your BTC into USD nor send anything to me during deal.

Let's say today's price is 5 BTC/USD.

You have 1000 BTC. You want to loan it for 5% per year for 6 months ( Yield will be 25 BTC )

Your 1000 BTC = 5000 USD today. We make an agreement that you lend me this 5000USD for 6 months.

I transfer 25 BTC into escrow for somebody well known on forum.

After 6 months passed we look at the price. If the price is lower, let's say 4.5 BTC, your initial 1000 BTC will cost 4500 USD.

Difference goes to me = (5000 USD - 4500 USD) / (4.5 BTC/USD) = 111.11 BTC.

If price is above 5 BTC/USD, I don't owe you anything because you did NOT convert BTC into USD when "lending" to me.

And, of course, you get 25 BTC (yeild) for this bond from escrow.


If you are interested - write here how much BTC you want to lend and for what %

I'll be your escrow. :D

How do we know this isn't a Ponzi, or possibly a Scam or that you will use it for drugs or hookers ?
You know how careful people are around here......

Read again where it says !!!IMPORTANT!!!

Did you read the post???

He's not asking for any BTC to be sent to him until he wins the bet.

Unless he was conspiring with the escrow, I don't see how he could scam.

So at the end if you were right, will have to send you 111.11 btc?

Nope. It's gotta be a Ponzi.
there has to be a reason why he doesn't want the money sent to him.....
Maybe he wants to break into our wallets.

Nope, it's a Ponzi. It's gotta be a Ponzi.....

So, in that case, I can lend up to 1,000 BTC but I will require 7% interest WEEKLY (Pirate Rates) in order to make this Ponzi worth my time.

If price will be lower, yes... lender will need to compensate

Facepalm



In other words you want to lend me money for 364% per year.... Let me think about it....

I can see why so many people have chosen to ignore you.

I suggest you to go to the gambling section, because it`s actually is.
And yeah, your rates should be like pirates one)
Are you taking deposits from everyone?

I give you possibility for 100% secure loan... what else do you want?

Why, Yes, you are correct. I love being ignored.

What in hell is a sub-100 post user doing creeping around in the Lending section anyways ? WHO are YOU looking to Scam ?
Are you here for a loan as well ? Do YOU have a fool-proof plan for massive gains and just need a few hundred BTC to get IT off the ground ?

So I don't need to send my money into escrow?
I can use my money to make profit from other sources as long as at the end I give you your part if that's the case?

Also do you require proof that I do have the coins?

For you to gamble with your own money. This is hardly a 'Loan' ....as is what is done in this forum.
Take your proposition to the Gambling Section.

Why would anyone loan 1,000 BTC for a 25 BTC return ?...LMAO

Well,i want more BTC`not less, your idea sounds fun, but it would be reasonable only in some cases)

Ok... write here how much % do you want and how much BTC can you lend and for how much time...

Example

5% | 1000 BTC | 6 month

I would say that I have much less than a 100 posts, and people have trusted me 85coins(120max). So I dont see any relationship.But your couple of posts are just showing that you are not trying to understand at all.

Well, i dont like gambling)
But currently i`m interested in small(about 50 btc) loans for a month with 25% MRP
300% a year|50BTC|1 Month

So I dont think that you will be interested in me). But pls reply about all conditions of such loan.

I'm looking for something like

<10%| x 000 BTC | >= 6 months

First of all, write strictly all conditions. And your topic sound disturbing in case of BTC cost. Like you know or control something,that we dont). I just cant get, is it in good way(price up) or in bad way(price down).
Plus i doubt that some one will be interested, because this is really gambling, for BTC your interest is too low and to long term, because price of BTC might change dramatically over time.

Look, I understand when you read this and don't have financial knowledge it's kind of strange..

Of course I will need some guarantees from you that your BTC will stay intact during loan time...
Of course I will need to specify what "price" is when contract is over... I think something of average USD price among 3 top exchanges for free currencies (USD, EUR, GBP)

When we have multi signature transactions everything will be much easier.

If you have tons of BTC that you plan to use in 5 years, why don't you get some % meanwhile...

+ you must understand global effect of such transactions on Bitcoin economy... in short - it will drive BTC price up...

Thats why I cant get is it good or bad)
But any way i`m not the person you are interested in, so wish you good luck.

He's essentially offering a CFD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_for_difference). It's a valid derivative, and only gambling insofar as much investing on exchanges is gambling.

CFD... yes.. you are correct

Ooops. Stats background showing.

It's good. Think of it like insurance, which is also a kind of gambling.

It's not kind of clean CFD because BTC is never converted into USD.
I can not take long position

I was thinking it looked like that was a request for someone to write (sell) a BTC PUT option (European style):
 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Put_option

The variation though is that instead of exercising the option at the end you instead settle with the PUT writer for the difference between the strike price and spot price at expiration.

Using your example, the PUT option you are looking to buy would look like this:

Contact (Asset): 1 BTC
Quantity: 1,000 contracts (of size 1 BTC per contact)
Expiration: 6 months,
Strike price: $5
Premium: .025 BTC (per contract)

You are describing the need for a guarantee fro the PUT writer that the "BTCs will stay intact".  Even with 2 of 3 (M of N), that is putting the PUT writer's bitcoins in escrow under control of a third party.

What happens though if the price drops more than 50%?   So let's say the exchange rate ends up $2.25.  Thus the settlement is ($5,000 - $2,250) / ($2.25 BTC/USD) = 1,222.22 BC.   The call writer owes you 1,222 BTC but there are only 1,000 BTC escrowed.

I thought about it too... this is trade off for not having centralized exchange and using only multi signature...

I would never take this deal. I stand to lose the full 1k BTC (and actually even more because it will approach infinity) and only stand to gain 2.5%. If I am that sure Bitcoin will rise in value I'll buy them leveraged ...

I will offer this deal as well btw. I think Bitcoin is more likely to rise than fall but for a 2.5% premium and an infinite amount of gain I'll take the negative bet as well. I only have to be right a really low amount of the time.

Ok, let's me ask you, will you lend your BTC to me for 10% per year? Now it sounds nice... is not it? But it is actually the same

See you had me until the '100%' secure loan part.

Who is the escrow? That is the most important part of this equation.

Multi signature between me, you and Gavin Andersen. Is it ok?

Sure, Gavin loans you the 1000 BTC, I'll escrow it, and deliver to you if needed.

I charge 1% as an escrow fee. :)

If you give me 4% per week I will lend you 500 BTC... Do you want?

Oh now you did it. They'll be coming out in droves for that one.

Ok I can see some heat around this... I think I will build the site for this - where people buy/sell loans

Hi Andrew,

as was written above, you are looking for a put option on BTC/fiat rate.

I was in need of a similar instrument to insure BTC fiat equivalent for a given time (i.e. the BTC will buy me at least the same in the fiat world in two months as they buy me today), see the related thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81643.0).

I suggest you to ask user brendio (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=21936) directly, he made me a very fair offer for that. It turned out I didn't need the insurance since the final transaction is to be carried out in fiat anyhow. Therefore I'm not advocating for him based on experience - just saying that his offer was very good.

HHhmmm...



...shoe on the other foot...



How about YOU lend me 1,000 BTC for 10% per Year ?
I will secure it as well....or does that rate offer only apply when YOU want to borrow and not lend ?

It's amazing how people change so quickly, to complete different sides, even on the same equation.

I can lend you 100 BTC right now? do you want?

You behave like a kid, this attitude will not get you very far

Can I have it for 10% per year ?

Yes. I will loan you 100 BTC for one year on conditions stated in this thread.

Just convince me it will be 100% secure loan

Unfortunately I can't do that because I am poor and untrustworthy.

I will pass and let you lend it to another member of the community who isn't going to waste it like I might do.

Thanks just the same.
bitlane.

I lock up 100 BTC in multisignature escrow. You lock up 10 BTC in multisignature escrow. Strike price will be 5.11 USD per BTC

Andrew,

That's not really fair to yourself here. Almost anybody would take that deal here.

Funny, I just thought, it isn't fair when people will only pay 10% per year. What has BTC done? :))

Being poor is temporary being untrustworthy is kind of for life

Come on guys, so will you lend me 100 BTC? Yes or no? :)

Anyone who has dealt with me on this forum knows that I can not be trusted.

You kind of putting the last nail in your coffin?

I just want you to remind, that in case of DEPOSIT, you dont have to pay a single satoshi more, and you should get your funds + interest.
But in your case, you may not only loose your btc(you will have them less when time come) but even dont have enough btc to payback. That`s the tricky place.
So at the end it,after all conditions are fulfilled, you wont have  more BTC for 100% shure. So what makes you better than others? But others rates are much higher.

Again, lend me 100 BTC now, deposit it... call it as you want... I promise to pay you back 110 BTC in one year from now...

I will lock 110 BTC in escrow for you.

That is another talk, but what makes you better than other? Everyone says that the will pay back 100%, i havent seen a single person who said that I might not return you your money.
For other side, MMM\Casino say clearly that you might not get your money back, but the interest is so high that people might not even care.

I will lock 110 BTC in escrow for you NOW, before you give me 100.

))) What is your profit of it? Just not letting me use BTC for this time to increase rates?
In that case people would love to do so,but i still would like to remind you that escrow is not 100% safe, especially in a long terms, because person can get missing,pc corrupt, etc.
We live in real life, there is no 100% sure.
In case of one sort terms\high rates this is acceptable, but in long term you`ll have to use some certified organization, which is none, all btc storages get btc stolen in a while)

I just wanted you to get it... 100 BTC now is not 100BTC in one year from now...

Of course I'm not going to lock 110 BTC just to get 100 BTC...

:)

Now I'm serious, read my first post again... If you want to earn guaranteed % on your BTC - write me up

Andrew,

If I get to add the address that the accepted escrow uses to my assets and the escrow doesn't not move the coins from that address (if he/she does a penalty will be applied.), I will accept the 100 BTC escrowed account from an accepted escrow (Gavin is acceptable).  And in one years time from the deposit of the 100 BTC, I will pay you 10 BTC.

Those coins shall not be moved from that address for the entirety of the year though. If at anytime those coins move from that address, a penalty shall be paid to me in the sum of 2 BTC.


Let's have some people scratching their heads.

I don't get it ... in plain English - you want to lend money or borrow?

I do understand that time changes valuably of money,thats why people get interest ) .
I just want to point you at 2 facts: 1. You cant provide 100% now in long terms. Delayed transaction would make sense, but it still is not implemented + there would be a chance that quantum computer will ruin all the system.
2. With your system there`s still a chance that depositor can not only loose all his money, but even be in a debt to you. If price will drop from 5 to 2.5 then he would have to pay you 2375 dollars. That is the risk). So thing about your preposition at least to eliminate this risk.

Well technically borrow, but I will not have access to spend the funds. The 'accepted' escrow will just hold them for a year. If the funds do not move for the year, I will pay you 10 BTC. If they do, you will pay me 2 BTC.

Isn't that fair?

Edit: However, the funds are considered mine. I just can't spend them.

Give me a minute to put official contract, meanwhile start looking for arbiter who will be co-signing multi signature transaction with us in case we will need somebody

Ok, well as you suggested in your post Gavin will be the escrow. An arbiter could be nanotube, if problems arise. OK.

Something like this? Edit it before we "sign it"...

I don't think Gavin will want to be involved into this.... let's ask around who can be trusted by both of us.



Do we have lawyers around?

Andrew, this is just a stupid SCAM.
You are just trying to show people how smart you are....pathetic.
I can't believe that someone is going to fall for this eventually.
Oh well, since you now have me on 'Ignore', it's not like you will see this post anyways,

Almost there...

Now tell me -  why do you think it is scam?

You missed some things... The 'accepted' escrow can't move the funds. The funds must stay in that address for the entire year.
Edit: and if they are moved: there is a 2 BTC penalty payed to me.

Just a sec... let me see if I can find an escrow that would be willing to hold the BTC for a year.

Look, I don't want our escrow agent guy to run away with my 100 BTC. I need an option to block escrow agent from moving funds, unless or you or me agree with his actions. Therefore I suggest multi signature transaction.



How about hashking, senbonzakura, Meni Rosenfeld ?

Just a sec... And the funds are considered Mine for the year. Just a sec...


Hash King isn't online right now, however, I will accept you depositing 100 BTC with Hash King that I can't access but are considered mine. I will at the end of the year pay you your 10 BTC and Hash King can return the 100 BTC to your control and you can pay any negative difference to me.

1st of all - don't be in rush, take your time... it is ok if you need some time to think it over.


No. Technically 100 BTC belong to me. However, this 100BTC will be used to pay the difference, if any.


No. You pay 10 BTC the moment we sign the contract because I don't know what 10 BTC will be worth one year from now.


PS. I PMed Gavin, maybe he will agree to help us

Ok, I will pay you 10 BTC upon the signed contract. The 100 BTC will be deposited with HashKing, you can use that 100 BTC to pay the difference. BUT, I shall earn any interest off of Hash Kings holding of the 100 BTC if any.

Look, I don't feel safe transferring 100 BTC to some nickname hashking (he even did not put his real name)...

Let me talk to Bitcoin core developers, mining pool operators - somebody who have reputation and can not afford to lose it...

What do you think about Tycho - he is deepbit owner?

Hey, You chose him as an option: How about hashking, senbonzakura, Meni Rosenfeld ?

But Ok, never mind.

So if BTC goes down to $2.50 USD....who pays who ? and how much ? (at the 1 year point?) ?


If BTC goes up to $10.00 USD....who pays who ? and how much ? (at the 1 year point?) ?

I send 100 BTC to him.


If price will be above 5.11 - I take my 100 BTC.

I sent some messages  - will see who will show up...

Let's continue tomorrow - it's 2 a.m here...

At 2% per week from HK, I wouldn't care by then. If I get paid anything from the difference at the end of the year, it would just be icing on the cake.

My other method of locking the BTC into an address and a penalty to be paid if moved, is like a CD except I could only use the CD value to leverage and not spend (however in that case, I would pay the 10 btc at the end, not up front).

In either case, I need to have some value to the 100 BTC.

I don't get it...OBVIOUSLY the price is going to increase with block reward halving.

This is all win for you (10 BTC today) and NO gain for the other guy.

Like I said, you are trying to prove how smart you are, that is all. It's a complete WASTE of 10 BTC for the other party involved.

Now I know why you have so much ignores :)

Exactly and I welcome MORE Ignores if the opportunity arises.

Face it, you wouldn't be offering to do this....this 'favor' for someone if you didn't already know that you are getting the better end of the deal while masking the rest in bullshit....and trying to make it look 'clever'.

Good luck with your 'money making' schemes.

I have doubts you will achieve this...

For example, Gavin accepts to be escrow... I transfer him money and this money he must return one year from now...

I don't know what "leverage" is for you but I doubt it can be applied if he will have the slightest doubt about this money not being returned.

And why is Gavin going to want to mess with this?  I'm sure he has more pressing things to do with his time and resources.

I'll toss my hat in the ring to be the escrow of a multisig transaction. If I understand them correctly, if after the term is complete, you both agree on where the funds should go, you can both sign the transaction and the escrow doesn't need to do a thing. Otherwise the escrow decides for one of the parties and signs their transaction. There is no way the escrow can run off with the funds without colluding with one of the parties.

Ok, I agree that brendio will be co-signatory for 2-of-3 transaction... BTC_Bear, what about you?

I need to try doing multi signature transaction ... it's still beta version

Well the 'Leverage' is actually against you. Under the terms, of a locked in 100 BTC to an address that doesn't move and to an 'accepted' escrow, lets look at the last few days. BTC went up 10%, since I won't pay the 10 in this scenario until the end of contract. It would be wise for you to come to an agreement to take back the 100 BTC to take the 10% profit, pay me the 2 BTC penalty, and still profit 8%.
Another method of using the 'CD' is I have a savings put a side in cold storage. I could keep that at the same level, take out 100 BTC, invest 100 BTC, etc... BUT the key to this method is that the BTC stays in an address in the blockchain and doesn't move so it can be referenced. If it moves, you pay a penalty (2 BTC) for early withdrawal. And I pay the 10 BTC at the end not up front.
Rather than make this foolish gamble.

The escrow really has the power here. Without assurances, he would just deposit with another and collect interest. Bredio is himself a lender, he would make interest. If he agrees that the interest he earns from 'holding' the BTC will go to me, then I will do the same as with Hash King.

Or you could just trust me, give me 90 BTC, and I'll pay you back 110 BTC in a year minus any negative difference.

But what I really want to show for anyone that takes you up on this, it that the money being held in escrow 'for a year' will probably be used to make money by whomever holds it and that needs to be added into your calculations.

Not to mention, Escrows usually deal in fairly short term deals, having them pay attention for a year is asking a little from them. They should charge a fee.

Multi-sigs have not been fully worked out and into the 'official' client, there would be a risk, possibly more to the escrow.

Or another way of stating your proposal: Just give me 90 BTC ( take the 10 BTC upfront ) and at the end of a 'YEAR', I'll give you 110 BTC minus any negative difference. I'll make any interest off of the amount, plus if at the end I'll get any negative difference to boost my interest earnings to date.


You seem to be trying to trick(maybe not intentionally) people with a Contract for Difference. There is nothing wrong with a Contract for Difference and you trying to use one, just let everybody know 'all' that will probably be done with the BTC.

May I suggest you just skip the 100 BTC escrow and just ask for an agreement and collect the 10 BTC upfront. Why make a CFD harder than it needs to be. The key would be to build up enough trust and reputation so that people will believe you will follow through on a contract and if you don't you have something to loose (i.e. Trust and Reputation )

Oh, because the idea here is to collect the difference in the value of BTC under a CFD, you could just deal in the traditional fiat and avoid the intermediary security. It would save some effort and expense. e.g. ( $50 upfront, $500 to pay the negative difference at the end of a year )
This method has merit to avoid any mention of BTC in transfers and their underlying reasons for the transfer. i.e. No need to mention Bitcoin in PP transfers, dwolla, etc....


BTW: Why not ask for 2000 Escrowed for the year? That way the Escrow can open a Pirate account and get 7%/week. After he gets his initial payment to you plus a little extra he can re-secure the funds and smile for the 'YEAR'.


Something tells me you know this already though.

FRB is alive an well in Bitcoins although this time it is unregulated and free market driven.

wait wait wait.... too many letters.... can you put YOUR terms in compact contract-like form and I will evaluate it.

PS. Kudos goes to piuk, as he can arrange multi signature transactions soon inside https://blockchain.info/wallet

Almost all of my proposals will include me getting the interest off of the 100 BTC for the year from the 'accepted' escrow. The others would introduce a shared risk between us that brings it closer to a 50/50 bet. As in, I would structure the 100 BTC to be escrowed so it couldn't earn any interest from the escrow agent. I would pay you the 10 BTC upfront, BUT an early withdrawal would require you to pay a 12 BTC penalty OR I'll pay you 10 BTC at the end and an early withdrawal will cost you 2 BTC. This structure puts a lot of work on the Escrow agent for a 'Year'. If he can't use the BTC to earn something he would want to have a fee, I would assume, the fee would be for you to pay.

This is a lot of work for an all involved. It would be easier if you built up enough trust and reputation to just do the deal without escrow.

I'm leery of Multi-Sig transactions. I understand why they were introduced but the unintended consequences will, imo, out weigh the benefits. BTC will be held ransom, it will increase the attrition rate of BTC, and it introduces a level of complexity that many won't want to deal with. It is hard enough to get people to understand bitcoins without adding a "but, if, and when" to a transaction.

A little calculations of a conservative nature:

      Escrowed:         100 BTC
%/year at 2%:         104 BTC
# Wks til B/E:          5 Weeks to get back my 10 BTC

So after 5 Weeks of me earning interest, I wouldn't really care what happens everything else is icing.

Escrowed:  100 BTC (Structured so No Interest can be earned)
       PV $: 5 USD (example)
       FV $: 6 USD (20 % increase in the value of 100 BTC being held in escrow)
  Penalty:  2 BTC (It would behoove you to agree to break the deal and cash out the 100 BTC)
       FV$: 4 USD ( Hurting you as to the contract, but time is on my side )

Really as structured, the only way that is a possible benefit for you is BTC to decrease but with in the PV$ of the 10 BTC or less. Of course, you could not want to cancel the deal on an increase and that would hurt both of us (but you more).

BUT as far as me giving you 10 BTC and crossing my fingers for a "YEAR", no thanks...

CDF's do have a place in BTC though, so the attempted use of them is interesting. The pricing of them will have to be closely calculated.

BTC_Bear, I'm really lost with what you trying to convey here...


As I can see, you are not interested in this deal so let's stay friends....

If you have other offer, please let me know, BUT make it in plain English without any abbreviations, because I don't know all of them

PV = Present Value
FV = Future Value
B/E = Break Even
USD = US Dollar
BTC = Bitcoin

US = United States

OK.

If btc price goes down we get 1025 btc back and you get some from value difference.

If btc price goes up we get 1025 btc bad and you have to pay some due to value difference.

How in earth are you going to earn anything if we hold btc in escrow?

Edit: Ah, you are not asking for a loan, you are asking for a CFD. Forget my questions :)

Edit2: I still don't get it. Since first post says 100% guaranteed, we get 1025 btc back no matter what happens?

Nope, only if price of btc goes up, if down you will own him some.

Another side will agree having 1000 BTC in x month from now...

( (1000BTC now) USD - ( 1000 BTC in x month from now) USD) / ( BTC price in future)

Theymos kindly agreed. Now I need to find counterparty

This is then equivalent to a futures contract, right? Parties agree at making a transaction in 6 months at 5.11usd/btc.

25 btc is way too low, good luck finding your counterpart.