Bitcoin Forum

.. which we all know are Ponzis, which we all know are scams.

<<< Bitcoin HYIP >>> BTCBackers - We back your BTC with interest! <<< Bitcoin HYIP >>>

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=824055

I used to think this guy was a reputable member of the community but nope. He is trying to fleece noobs with this "legal scam."

Its absolute bullshit, just like every single "investment program" that promises fixed returns.

There is a 100% probability that this will end as a scam, as 100% of all Ponzis that have ever taken place ended as a scam.

ALL HYIPs are Ponzis, but not all Ponzis are HYIPs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-yield_investment_program

So, if you are also a criminal, by all means, feel free to question my character instead of my reasoning and evidence.

I agree it is a ponzi, but it's in the gambling section.  Player beware I guess.   :-\

A Ponzi scheme is not the same thing as gambling.

Its not a matter of opinion; they are two distinct categories of activity, hence the need for different words and definitions. It doesn't matter what this site categorizes it as. Some truths exist outside of what the forum believes.

A gambling site tells you that you have this or that odds.. maybe you do, maybe you don't.

A Ponzi site tells you you will _always_ receive _consistent_ returns, which is a flat out lie, because at a point unknown to customers the scheme ends, rendering the schemer a liar.

Ergo, by nature of the business, everyone who runs a Ponzi is a liar and is not to be trusted. Its a shitty, dishonest way of doing business.

Now, a gambling program like PonziDoge... That IS gambling, because it has set rules that can be understood by all the participants and it never fails to operate by those rules.

Ponzis that present themselves as anything other than Ponzis... aren't gambling, they're financial crimes.

I have left him negative trust for running a ponzi.

I will direct him to this thread to post a response.

You can't do that unless he has scammed. This is what makes ponzi schemes and other mass frauds so difficult to catch and persecute. You can only call them scammers AFTER they have scammed. Right now, there is no proof that Niothor is scamming.

However, the way he deleted my posts leads me to question the credibility of his claims.

IMO he is scamming by running a ponzi.

I'm not an idiot that waits until you empty my wallet before I change my password. 

Thank you, Vod.

I think Niothor's kind of behavior really shouldn't be tolerated, and even though we can't do anything to make it stop, we can at least try to warn others about people who engage in fraudulent activity.


How's this for proof:

Niothor admits he is running a HYIP. All HYIPs are Ponzis. A Ponzi is a scam. Therefore, Niothor is scamming.

I'm pretty sure that's proof in the pure scientific definition of the term.

Your statement All HYIPs are Ponzis is questionable.

Mmm... Not really:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-yield_investment_program

Niothor has contributed a lot to this community, and I hate to leave negative trust to someone like that.   :-\

if he closes down his ponzi and settles all balances, I will be happy to remove the negative trust.

Hopefully it hasn't got too large and he IS able to settle all balances.

Why anyone would want to mar their trust rating after being full time members like that is beyond me

He sent me a PM, but I'm not going to reply, as I'd prefer all communication be public. I have pointed him to this thread.

From what I saw you didn't respond with the thread link. Your reference led to my thread link for BTCBackers.
If I closed the site, I would have to wait until all revenue is generated (because how would I be able to cover the larger 360% BEFORE the 90 days are up?)

It really is Vods call, I personally think I have this all mapped out, I really hoped for success for the site...but if not, I'll be happy to close up the thread and disable everything on the site and pay out everything once they become due to be paid.

Sorry if I have caused any distruption in the community, I genuinly thought it was a good idea to open a HYIP to help expedite the growth of my plans.

What do you guys suggest instead of a HYIP? Looks like a securities thread or a long term loan is the only option, but without collateral, obviously not possible.

I sent you a PM pointing you to this thread, before you PMed me.


I don't buy into HYIPs.  If you really were able to make that money, why pay the outrageous rates you offer?  Give a flat percentage and keep the rest - or don't even borrow money at all!  Right now it is very obvious you are using the promise of high rates to get new deposits.  Why do you need the constant influx of cash if you make such high profits?

I'd like to see you close the HYIP and pay everyone what you owe them.  For those 90 day durations, simply convert them to daily and pay them out.



Luckily, you have a chance to recover from your error.  I'll be happy to remove the trust once everyone has been paid back.  Hopefully, if you managed your coins well, you no longer need deposits to make money!  :)

What do I suggest instead of a HYIP?  Borrow your seed money if you need to, then reinvest your profits and don't take on new debt.

390% return after 90days  is1560% yearly  return  lol

I hoped the btc community  aren't stupid/greedy enough to send any coins but history has shown that they are so they deserve to get some lessons in economics imo
1560% a year is unsustainable, anyone who says different is lying

If anyone had a way to make such returns they would use their own capital and get exponentially rich in a short time without borrowing anything from anyone......

Perfect summation of why I think HYIPs are scams.  :)

This is just another form of gambling. It is fun if you do not put up more than you can afford to lose.

Personally, I put about $40 into it. Maybe I make a few bucks, maybe I don't. Take it for what it is.

But I am gambling on niothor to deliver. Kind of like gambling on your favorite horse in the Belmont Stakes.

Place your bets, sip some good scotch and have fun. Don't make this your primary source of income.

Wrong
MINUS investment which is 100% = 290% x 4 = 1160% return after a year
Seriously, get your math straight before posting.

Actually, his math is right.   :-\

Assuming the person who is investing also re-invests the interest he makes...

ALSO including the maximum investment of 5BTC
You can't double, triple, infinite your money. There are equillibreams where the profit becomes harder to make as with any venture.
It's easy to turn 0.001 to .002, a 100% gain
But 100BTC to 200BTC? It's the same gain, but much harder to achieve. This is the flaw in everyones point who says you can do "the same thing over and over again"... Which most fail to see.

I will close the program if I'm required to close it, it's my last resort. Like I said I really do think I have this all mapped out, and I look forward to bringing something unique (and legitimate for a change) to the community. Hopefully you can make an exception vod, if not, I understand.

I am really confused here, niothor, either you are using depositors' money to make a trading profit and pay divvy with, or you are using it to pay older depositors. If it's the former, fine, good luck. If it's the latter, then you are a ponzi operator and a thief.
You don't sound like a stupid person, you know the difference between the two, which is it?

I've explained multiple times how the site works on the site, on the thread etc...but I'll explain again.
Investors money are placed STRAIGHT into revenue sources. My main source of revenue is mining altcoins, and trading them out for bitcoins. Preferrably, new or promising altcoins. That's basically a brief explanation, obviously not the full rundown, but it answers your question.

so  your site is not a ponzi scheme .. is this your affermation ?

I don't see anything wrong with opening an honest investment venture where you try to raise capital.

Its just mathematically impossible to sustain consistently high returns on investment for any considerable period of time, for any considerable amount of money. I know fixed returns is the selling point but if you could really generate income this quickly, you wouldn't need to make such big promises and could probably still be quite successful with fewer capital funds.


The most famous person who offered returns this steady and delivered (only a mild 12% per annum compared to your astounding... what percentage is it when a $100 investment turns into $23,134 in 1 year?) was Bernie Madoff. They caught him because his numbers were so on-the-dot every month / year that the chances of them being genuine were astronomically remote.

The "investor" darksun22 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=123486;sa=showPosts;start=20) appears to be an account bought by Niothor or his partner on around September 5th, for the purposes of trying to run scams. The accounts previous owner sold his Warcraft account through this forum so its likely he also sold this one. This is exactly why account selling should be banned from the forum.

Then there's this gem:


Yeah, I don't think everyone knows this.

Niothor, you're not being upfront about your intentions at all, now are you?

I'm sure you are trying to expedite the growth of your plans - we all have plans - but you're you're just trying to reel in suckers and noobs through false advertisement, which would be a crime if this were real-world money (it actually is a crime, its just not as easy to enforce).

I don't think there's anything left to be said, other than yes, you should obviously take down your thread.

He also deleted the first thread [old (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=823080)] (because of my reply), just to make a moderated topic (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=824055.0) after that, Classic scammer. I replied there also, but he keeps deleting my post. So hereby, my original but obviously deleted post:





Sure. I will just also leave my explanation here so people can decide it for themselves. Since you promised me to not delete if it's not in big red letters, ill put it in normal text.

To reply to your explanation:
1) You are not limiting the amount, you are just limiting the amount per deposit. I could easily make multiple 5 btc deposits.
2) STILL if you can make THAT much money, you wouldn't seek for investments on a bitcoin forum. If I could make $462,688 from a $2,000 investment I could have huge investments myself.
3) If you want to limit the amount anyway, why the hell do you need investments?
4) etc. etc. you just don't make sense. Hope people are not stupid enough to fall for it.




OBVIOUS PONZI IS OBVIOUS - DO NOT LOSE MONEY IN AN IDIOTIC SCAM LIKE THIS. TY

Let's calculate:

390% Plan - 90 Day Duration

So let's invest $2000 for a year:

2000*3.90 = 7800 after 90 days
7800*3.90 = 30420 after 180 days
30420*3.90 = 118638 after 270 days
118638*3.90 = 462688 after 360 days

Half a million dollar (well $462,688) after 1 year with a $2,000 investment? LOL!

If they had a magic formula to make THAT much money, they wouldn't sell it to you!


Site looks good? Just a $16 template - http://themeforest.net/item/gaea-responsive-environmental-html5-template/8490746 (preview (http://preview.imithemes.com/gaea/)) - I could make this in 1 hour (!)

Hero Member? Probably a sold account.

Yes this is my affermation.

NLNico and nutildah JUST did not read my post about the MAX INVESTMENTS and the initial investments...
Especially NLNico you just showed your blatant stupidity by posting what you just posted. Seriously, you can't read?

As for darksun22, I did a bank transfer exchange with him and asked if he'll test the site out, after previous successful trades he said yes. How is that an indication of scam?

I do appreciate you closing the program niothor, and I'm sure the other active people on this thread will appreciate it too.

I can't make an exception, because I don't know why you don't use your own money to make the profits, and why you are paying out ridiculous sums you don't need to.   :-\

Thank you for understanding.

It is not about the max investment.

It's about the incredible/unsustainable high return that you claim to be able to make. With a return that high, you could easily make your own money into very high amounts. No reason at all to get any investments. That is what I am showing you with basic maths. It's not about max investments.

No problem
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=824055.0

I'm closing the site, and for the next 5 days i'll be working out a fair repayment plan for those who invested. This way everyone will receive fair amounts of interest and also their full investment back. I'll also throw in some bonuses for the hold.

That'll be my final comment (unless I am urgently pulled to reply again).

I'll have to go and update the site now.

"That is actually good news." Hope you can put your own money into one of these 390% plans and you will be still rich in no time.

You still don't understand, do you?

My calculated returns are what you are advertising, don't blame me for being unable to back up your own bullshit :D

Your making so much money daily  that you could pay it to yourself every morning and reinvest it every night and loans would not be necessary

Why not post up the total deposits you have taken to date and your name and address if you are not running a scam.....

Mining worthless alt Coins to trade for valuable btc  "amongst other things"  lol

Is that the best you could come   up with?? You really are a rocket scientist :)

I thought you made your last post already.

The fact is this: deposit limits are meaningless because you could just split up a large deposit into a bunch of smaller ones and send them from different addresses.

You claim to easily make 5 bitcoins into 19.5 bitcoins (+ site profits!) in only 90 days. So if you put your own money into that, you will earn very nicely and get rich soon?

Sure you cannot make 500 into 2k coins etc because of that annoying maximum limit. But still I think you will be a very rich man with your magic formula.

Guys, the whole "If Niothor can promise such a high return rate, why doesn't he put in his own money for such returns?" has been around long and is used in cases of legitimate banking, for example: "If banks can yield such a generous profit, why don't they just use their own money to get rich?". It just projects a misunderstanding of how investment schemes work. You need to look at it this way, if you can buy something for a low price, say, a PSP battery, and a Pandora's battery sells for more than the original PSP battery, you could buy about a hundred PSP batteries and turn them all into Pandoras. However, there will be a limit to how many you can buy, and the market will adjust accordingly. So I can take a loan that will give me enough to buy a thousand batteries. I know it's a poor analogy, but it's the only one that came to my mind because I had a PSP when I was twelve.

Niothor already said he's running a HYIP. A HYIP is by definition a Ponzi. A Ponzi is by definition a scam. There's nothing more to know, except why are you so intent on defending him?

I'm not defending him, In fact, I'm not taking any sides at all.

Legitimate banking pays back a few cents  on the dollar yearly

A ponzi offering hundreds or even thousands of % a year cannot be  compared to legitimate banking

I hope  you are just trolling and you don't believe there's a  legitimate way to make profits  in those ranges

Too late.

Has anyone checked to see if niothor is a bought account?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=119718 - To me, it's looks like this account was mainly for the primedice signature campaign. Once that ended, he started buying BTC and then started this site. Could have started a ponzi after the lost income from primedice. I know a couple members here had many alts running this campaign and it's only a matter of time before they are used to scam now that there are no other good paying campaigns.

Probably wrong but everyone should watch out from members who were running the primedice campaign.

Whole-heartedly agree. I can't take anything Primedice sig wearers have to say seriously anyway.

nope, still the same old me since when i first joined here. i stopped with the campaign because they stopped offering it to hero members. i then bought capital for BTCBackers, not long after the campaign closed and after the development of the site.

If you want some verification, more than welcome to request it

First link on Google when searching hyip is wiki and it says: HYIP is a type of Ponzi scheme. Anyone putting money in something would at least do this search, no?  ;)

I went through his posts. He used to post nearly everyday on Russian and Ukrane threads. After PrimeDice campaign ended, account went silent for two weeks and then suddenly returned to buy bitcoin from several members, to gain trust perhaps? and no more posts on his home country, no more arrogant flare. Then this HYIP debacle.

A bought account is extremely likely.

Niothor has still neither closed his HYIP website nor removed his signature directing people there. I encourage everyone to leave him negative trust to warn others of the fact that they are likely dealing with a bought account which shouldn't be trusted.

I would give him at least a week, it's certainly not easy

Give him a week to do what? Pay everyone back with promised profits? Or run away with the money?

To pay back the promised profits. It's not easy for one person to manage

yes it is hard, since most pf the longer term investments are in long term mining contracts

in the meantime i am trying to buy coins, but cant find any buyers to suite my needs

Why are you still advertising a scam in your signature?

You've been caught. Your opinion here is worth less than nothing now.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=119718 - Hasn't been online for around a week. Did he run with the funds or pay people back?

This is my guess.   :-\

Where are you niothor ?


The next time I suggest to the users that want to enroll in a sig. campaign , only if  it's  present an escrow or if they will pay you weekly.


Damn, scammed by a hero member ,something went wrong.

Nothing went "wrong".  His ponzi was undetected until the damage was done.

The people will the power to negative trust (like me) have to be informed before we can do anything.   :-\  As soon as I was made aware I acted on it.  There was no scam after that point.

If only someone had warned participants that he would likely end up not paying for their advertising.

From the HYIP thread:

I think it is safe to say that negative trust would not have stopped people from foolishly investing and advertising.

Hero member accounts can be bought or hacked. After the primedice sig campaign went down, I'm sure there was a lot of buying and selling these type of hero accounts.

Why did people trust him with their BTC in the first place? If you check his trust, you'll see it was all recent and he probably sent first or used escrow.

Well in this case I think the negative trust ended the ponzi in it's tracks.  People will always be fools (religion) - all we can do is point them in the right direction.

Yeah , I checked his trust  and I've seen  he has "gained"  4 trust feedback in only 2-3 days.

- 1° from darksun22 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=123486)  maybe his alt-account
- 2° from blg425 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=242254) -I don't know if it is another alt account , but his last active day is the nine of october.
- 3°-4°  from a two members active here in the forum , but we don't have any proof of this transactions.

I think he gave up when he got the negative trust. IIRC the person who was running the cryptominer ponzi/scam got negative trust relatively early on and it didn't stop people from investing with them to the tune of ~70 BTC when they ran away.

Offtopic - re: religion - the thing about religion is that people will follow it without proof of a higher power (usually god), but they rather have faith (believe) in what the religion teaches/practices.

It isn't really a religion I think it's more a dollar auction like thing when finally you make more and more bids no longer for profit, but for keeping the whole thing alive for a while and hoping that you can win the auction and decrease your losses.

For example I took part in his signature champaign and kept his ad until the end of the agreed time. I have had increasingly bad feelings about the payment, but sometimes difficult to admit that I've made a bet on the wrong horse, and wasted weeks of time. So hope and cognitive dissonance together drove me into quite irrational decisions :). Actually this was a pretty good lesson for me.

Where the hell did THAT come from??? Stay on topic dude. That's like, an unbearable topic jump

Did you read the post he quoted?

In any case, looks like Niothor has pulled a scam.  I'm glad I was able to stop it before he stole coins from more people.   :-\

I think he genuinely thought he could run it properly, and then messed up. How much did he gain? 1 BTC? He could have sold his account for that.

Obvious scam was obvious

If you do the mathematics you will come to the only possible conclusion

Nobody can make guaranteed  returns of 1560% a year, its the most obvious ponzi since pirates
But it probably won't be the last because people are Gullible and greedy

Sadly niothor was a sold account :/ it was purchased by Moreia and sold it to someone else before it got negative trust 

Can someone please leave this Moreia a negative trust. Everything this guy does screams red flags. He tried scamming with an account he bought, he sent phishing links to everyone, takes growing loans which seem unfounded, etc.