Bitcoin Forum

In this thread XMR baghodlers (read: all current investors) are invited to have free discourse without worrying about being censored for displaying opinions that don't correlate with the pro-monero hivemind or including facepalm gifs



Deleted post verbatim:



If only there was a CN coin which didn't have poorly thought out emission curve from inception...

Oh wait there was! and not only did the emission curve not have to be retroactively adjusted, *completely* violating the social contract, it also synced from scratch 20x faster (12 minutes vs 4 hours) had 3x smaller blockchain, with the ability to trim well into the future, a intuitive native GUI (no endless promises), native aliases, improvements to anonymity set, arguably better PoW and generally was not praised as the second coming of jesus by a bunch of individuals making their first foray into altcoin pumping after becoming bored of BTC's stagnation. They must of thought it would be like penny stocks

Now we have a small group of assorted bagholders- many of whom attempted to conjure up fanatical levels of support with their orchestrated pump on monero, a unseen level of hubris on these forums all led by a pied piper playing an irreistible tune of $$ :

https://i.imgur.com/1olJtbO.png
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http://barnapkinmemoirs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/picard-facepalm.jpg


XMR holders have now had the briefest of splashes with cold water, becoming bagholders for just a couple of months max has already shocked them to the core. Back to reality realising they actually are facing a btc denominated loss now in their experiments,  (not like anyone told them they will likely be bagholders at least temporarily or pointed out the catastrophic flaws with XMR's structure) the biggest holders try their hands at controlling monetary policy

of course this comes AFTER already securing their privileged positions when emission was steeper- they finally come to understand the inflation given the current climate is not tolerable, as many had already said Build your coin on a solid foundation from day one, don't stick bandaids on i.

Nevertheless the prospect of enduring a cold winter at malla with no electricity is not an attractive one. So now is the time to get that rouge lipstick out and start applying it all around this grotesque hambeast they are stuck with.

As to the theory Aminorex and co sold off, I don't beleive that for a second. He is firm in his belief that XMR has  "already solidified it's position as the number 2 coin next to BTC", "it's natural successor" "the only contender for global dark market liquidity niche".

The price is low, so that's prime opportunity for him and his SVP contacts at two sigma, along with his network of prop desk traders across the world, to scoop up tons of cheap coins  (Monero price is not cheap even now, but it will not stay this cheap for long ™ as some would say)

He even was advocating quitting his job if he didn't get paid in XMR, I'm sure he wouldn't sell, he would probably just take a few shots of whiskey and some amphetamine- whip out his black book and start making some phone cools to bigwigs. We would shortly be back on the road to da moon because this is only a temporary pitstop back on earth, us monero supporters all know that monero is the only worthwile alt who's success is inevtiable, right guys?
...guys?


XMR has a chance of success if you leave it the way it is. You will NEVER hear the end of the instamine accusations if you change the core parameters at this stage. You can never market it as a truly fair or legitimate option. Do not let shortsighted fears take over now when they never factored in to your buy-in's before you realised it wasn't going to be plain sailing. You need to ride the storm out and demonstrate you are confident in your decisions because the confidence was shining through before.

I'm finally about to start cutting my losses on XMR now, I'll attempt to recoup on other projects.

So long and thanks for all the buy in tips.
https://i.imgur.com/0GzRzwK.png

If it means we're not gonna have babbys that can't do anything but troll every single time they've shat their diapers .. I'm okay with that.

Most of it was just you crying about Risto not buying a different CN coin.

How do you expect anyone to comment on that?

Most of it sounds like bait.

Besides, I thought nobody cared about Monero?

Why you still trollin?

He was wrong, who cares? People are wrong all the time, you're posting this like it's some massive revelation.

if Mark Karpeles comes on the forum and says he has created a brand new exchange running would you like to deposit some funds?.
 
What is your answer?

your answer is no only because you have been educate. You now realise not to go near anything he touches- It's like touching a hot flame, getting burned and realising it's not a smart idea.

The same story with the lies spouted by rpietila, wolong, blackhand etc. These pumpers with insane claims need to be exposed.

It's not about being wrong, it's about being purposefully deceptive time and time again. About educating people not to get suckered in by pump masters who will always promise you the world and pull the rug out from underneath you...

A futile effort, in my opinion. People will always be sucked in by pump masters because people, by their very nature, are stupid. They want to believe, and if someone comes along and makes some lofty promises, they will believe. Time and time again. It's been happening since time immemorial, and will continue until we no longer are, or fundamentally change what we are.

So rpietila = mark karpeles?

You never cease to make me laugh.

rpietila and wolong are fucking blips on the map standing next to karpeles.

Karpeles ran an exchange, people handed him money. People lost 850,000 bitcoins.

Are you saying that you handed rpietila money?

It doesn't seem like it. The price is either at or well below his buy in price.

No your money went to someone else.

Someone was buying at .01. I watched the buys. I don't know if it was Risto, but they were buying in 50 btc chunks all the way up.

You think risto's the only whale in the sea? Such a small viewpoint.

It's sad.

We never even got a rug. Maybe a ball of yarn at best.

850,000 bitcoins total lost with gox.

How many Monero got lost on monero? None.

Nobody walked away with your money, or stole it without your knowledge.

Nobody stole shit from you.

If you bought something and it's worth less than before, welcome to fucking life. Have you seen the resale value on flatscreens these days? What's the resale value on cars? Or even the resale value on computer games?

The thing is, when you buy any of those three, it has a permanently depreciating resale value. It's 100% likely that that tv or car or game will be worth even less than what it was worth this year.

The same cannot be said about this currency. Nobody knows if it'll be worth 1000x or .0001x it's value right now. You knew that going into this. You can even come here and tell me it won't be worth any more next year than next. You don't fucking know and well fucking see.

If you didn't know any of this going into this, seriously consider learning a little bit about all of this.

You just wanna bitch and moan because you can't wait until there's actual people here to do some real adopting, or you're mad because someone bought something else and you feel they shouldn't have.

You're really just bitching that there's not enough people interested in alternative cryptocurrencies. So go fix it.

Nobody has lost 850000 Monero at all, so please tell me where he took them from you?

Or, maybe you're just trollin.

Real people don't act this way, so you're easy to point out.

You've got a grudge, and are trying to make it look like there's thousands of people angry with pitchforks. That's a lie, because nobody cares about Monero or Risto in the real world. It's just you. Probably, you're mad because you think someone stole your protocol.

To which I'd say again, nobody stole anything at all. We picked up more interest than you, because you guys were pieces of shit and weren't forthcoming with us, lied to us, and all-around over-elusive. That all would have been just fine if you could actually prove that you didn't premine 82% of the currency, but you can't. We were the community you were supposed to have, but you fucked up and your supporters took over.

Maybe not, maybe you're just a bored dude that likes to get people riled up. Maybe you're paid. Maybe you've got nothing at all to do with cryptocurrencies and are paid to do your job.

You see, we've heard it all before. Nobody cares anymore, besides like ten to twenty people.

The only thing that's clear: This isn't how people would act in the situation you're trying to present to us. You're a liar and a cheat, and are the only one here that is both of those things.

I've noticed you go out of your way to ignore me, time and time again, by the way.

"You will NEVER hear the end of the instamine accusations if you change the core parameters at this stage. You can never market it as a truly fair or legitimate option."

100% agree with this.

ehm. i don't usually respond to troll posts, but it's saturday, so why not?

i still have all my xmr.

i have stated before i'll sell all mine if there's some crazy dramatic change to the emissions curve. that's still the way i feel. i am in support of fixing subsidy at 0.1 XMR when we reach it, to cause small amounts of inflation that help secure the chain, but that's it.

in the future, 2-3 years from now, if people want to come back and tell me that xmr was a premine, that they never had a chance to get in on it when it was cheap, direct them to this post and what the chart looked like at this time. xmr was here to buy, it was cheap, the tech is in the CN paper, we implemented the first database for CN core (not a page file), we published the first paper on a number of privacy issues, and i'm working hard to ensure a roll out of new privacy features in the near future. we've battled off several serious attacks and drama, and we've done it on our own dime. we never had a premine, we never had an instamine, we never had a tax.

i personally never sat around pumping the coin, etc etc etc. the tech behind it is good, so i always had faith. we reimplemented the ring sig algo and studied it intensely and couldn't break it. ecdh is trivially secure. the bitcoin core devs spoke favourably of the ring signature technology in the their sidechains paper.

gui for the node is really an afterthought, which was why we never shoved one out quickly. look at how many bitcoin-qts are left running these days; everyone uses a safer reimplementation of the bitcoin wallet or a webwallet because running a full node using 250 GB of bandwidth a month is silly for the end user. rest assured we're working on better solutions.

there's going to be a lot of stuff happening in the near future. dev is rolling along. if you wanna dump your coins now, go for it.

I was wrong. 

I bought 4 jars of my favorite peanut butter on sale at less than half price.  I put the bag on the hood of my car while I got my keys out.  Much to my dismay one of the jars rolled out of the bag, down the hood and when it hit the pavement it broke.  As it's not all about me I cleaned up all the broken glass.  That was over 3 Moneros worth of peanut butter.  Yes I buy good peanut butter.

I don't get all the fuzz. How can the (very normal) inflation curve of XMR be considered a major, major problem. Only because price has been grinding lower and lower and some whales showing their love by asking for a reduced inflation rate?

This tech is brand new. There is no real world adoption yet with devs honing the code on a continuing basis. Awareness is growing but the market, together with the entire altcoin market, is grinding lower.

Look, the inflating curve was known from the start. If your early adopter investment disappoints,  sell and leave or just hold and go with the program. A negative development of a few people's investment should never be a reason to fork. The current price is just what the market dictates. The loss of the early adopter is gain of the new investor. There is no 'right' price for XMR other than the market price.

The issue could be price development. Well, start contributing to things that benefit development then. Only this will bring XMR further. Just limiting coin issue only because a whale perceives it beneficial for its investment will do more damage than good. I think the devs and community understand this perfectly well.

TacoTime, what do you consider "some crazy dramatic change to the emissions curve."?

Why do I always get hungry when I see your name?

edit:  Thank you

Whee. Let's untroll a troll's thread :)

Anyway, quoted for truth, future reference, and general agreement. I've been on record before in the usual Monero threads that I am in support of a carefully chosen & community supported emission adjustment of XMR to overall more resemble that of BTC, but even if we disagree on this exact point, your post (and similar ones by the other devs) are the reason why I'm staying in this little experiment with a non-trivial position, downtrend or not.

Keep up the good work, is what I'm saying here.

suddenly slowing emission to 1/2 or 1/4. in 10 years i bet we'll have people sitting around saying bitcoin was a horrendous instamine, etc, etc. which it is as well. monero just has a faster timescale. there was a time when you could get xmr and btc cheaply, relative to what it is now. it's preprogrammed to be that way. ours is pretty fair too. at this point, cryptocurrencies aren't that new, everyone in tech knows about them, and the onus is on them to read the CN whitepaper and understand what's going on.

I'm worried about the security of the network, considering only 14% will be left to emit 4 years from now. It just seems unnecessarily fast to me.

in 4 years there's going to be ethereum 8.0, IBM adept (ethereum fork), many other innovations we can't predict, and 293,294 Bitcoin sidechains with myriad features. perhaps a faster distribution curve will be the one thing that ends up saving xmr, because it in theory, with adoption, will cause a more rapid increase in price than these major competing currencies.

my point is, it'll succeed or it won't in the next 4 years, and it's not going to matter what the emission is at that point.

I'm skeptical of most of the arguments being made for a change, but this is pretty flawed logic. The emission could very much matter to whether or not it succeeds in the next four years. Yes the 4+ year emissions will likely happen after most of the success or failure of this coin does, but that doesn't mean they can't have an effect on that success or failure. It isn't as if the low emissions in 4 years are unknown or invisible. People see what is coming and may decide to go elsewhere if it looks like it is going to be unsound.

That said, I still don't see a good argument for this curve or that curve, other than not letting rewards go to zero. But other than that, I'm unconvinced that one person's preferred curve is better than another's.  If we agree that too fast and too slow are both bad, then it follows that without actually knowing what is best, any speed up or slow down could be harmful.

This would be empirically validated in Bitcoin by now (supposed to last until 2100+, only 5 years old, 60% mined out). Yet most new entrants into cryptocurrency stick with Bitcoin. The ones who bother with alts are mostly within two camps (1) the overwhelming majority who feel they "missed out" and are just shooting in the dark hoping to strike gold and (2) those who see scope for technological niches, a small minority.

Who are the ones who see BTC is 60% mined out and choose something else because of that? Are you sure they're not actually a subset of (1), i.e. they choose an alt because they're hoping for higher upside and not because they are bothered by BTC's fast emission? This latter group doesn't actually care about emission on some logical/moral level; they're just speculators who operate at a farther point in the risk-reward curve.

To respond to baghodler:

Yes, everyone talks about how they're going to hold for 2+ years when times are good. They promptly starts panicking on a downtrend and come up with various rationalizations for various schemes. It will pass; churn in the markets is a good thing.

If you talk to non-crypto people about Bitcoin many describe it as a Ponzi scheme (which is their imprecise way of saying that if feels like early adopters are getting rich from later adopters) and feel they are too late to be an early adopter, or at least ask if it is too late. I started hearing that question for the first time last year and continue to hear it this year.

Also, when I mentioned people looking at it and thinking it is going to be unsound, that wasn't just early adopter status vs late adopter status but also whether the network is going to be secure. (I think that was the specific point to which I replied.) Bitcoin has a few decades at least before the rewards dwindle to nearly nothing, which is far enough away to ignore or at least not be too concerned about. Monero's much faster curve makes that prospect far more immediate.

EDIT: Also, let me add one point. We were talking about 4 years, and Monero won't by 60% mined in 4 years, it will be approximately 90% mined (16.5m/18.4m). At 60% Bitcoin has a level of maturity and scale today that makes it (somewhat) compelling and Monero is unlikely to achieve in one year (when we approximately hit 60%).

A sudden change in the emission rate say 1/2 or 1/4 from one block to the next would break the social contract of a smooth emission curve in Monero so I would be opposed to that. One the other a gradual change in the emission rate over say a 90 day period would not and I would support it. The critical difference is that in the latter case the market is given the proper time to adjust, while in the former case it is not. I made my argument here: https://forum.monero.cc/19/voting/90/d-v-round-2-xmr-emission-and-related-issues?page=&noscroll=1#post-385 (https://forum.monero.cc/19/voting/90/d-v-round-2-xmr-emission-and-related-issues?page=&noscroll=1#post-385)

http://barnapkinmemoirs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/picard-facepalm.jpg



FIXED

The rollercoaster of crypto drama is famous for the mania of its highs and depression of its lows.  Monero is not an exception.   8)

These are all excellent points!  Please note this latest round of inflation curve drama is solely the result of the self-appointed MEW and its wannabe King Whale, who is well known for personifying the mania of crypto's irrationally exuberant highs and its correspondingly depressive lows.

What do you mean by self-appointed MEW? It is a group of XMR holders and supporters who each contributed XMR to the group (half of which goes directly to the Dev's).

I do agree the drama about the emission schedule seems to have followed from the price decline, which has happened during a general crypto bear market. Everyone needs to remember that post hoc ergo propter hoc is a logical fallacy. There is no evidence that the 'fast' emission schedule has caused the price decline since September (even as the emission rate falls).

I don't believe it is necessary but, if the emission rate were to be reduced, I think ArticMine's suggestion of gradually increasing the block time would probably be the best way.

As for bagholder, I have been buying more XMR in every month since June, and I am sanguine about holding.
Q

Had to google "sanguine"! :D

I know what/who the MEW is/are and how it was formed.

By "self-appointed" I  mean its presumed authority to proclaim what is best for Monero.

The real MEW is the free market, inclusive of all participants regardless of paying membership dues.

The free market understands correlation does not imply causation, and it's pathetic that the Official MEW doesn't.  Also pathetic is their belief that goofing around speculating about ideal emission rates is real work equivalent to actual coding on important milestones like the GUI, DB, etc.

The MEW was supposed to accomplish great things for the XMR economy, but the price has tanked since it was created.

Having convinced others to hold bags of now-devalued XMR, they really need to look busy and seem effective at this point.  Hence their insistence that Somebody Do Something^TM!

You are straw manning.

It is explicitly stated that that MEW has the authority to proclaim only the opinion of the organization. I know this because I insisted that the scope of this authority be made explicit when the group was formed. If some greater authority were claimed, I would not have joined.


Well no. The (real) MEW is an organization and if you don't join you aren't a participant in that organization. That doesn't disqualify you from stating an opinion of course.


The MEW has not expressed any opinion yet. The matter was simply brought up for discussion. No vote has been taken as yet.


PHEPH dude.

I'm "straw manning?"  Oh rly?


How could you possibly miss the palpable self-aggrandizement in the above quote?

I trust you sent a PM to RP in which you scolded him for indulging in ad hom attacks by accusing me of 1) not having a stake and 2) shorting XMR, despite all indications to the contrary... 

/yah right; as if   :D

Realize, this is the new monero-free-for-all thread...

Oh goody, the last one was a lot of funz!   ;D

What else did you guys expect of Monero, most PoW cryptos are inflationary.

Whatever coin is able to curb inflation sooner than others, especially in a bear market we're in now which is to go on another 12 months (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=852011.0), can ensure the demand stays equal to or above supply, providing support to the price.

The other PoW coins will keep sinking, and by next November many that had prospects in 2014 will be forgotten.

Out of all PoW coins the only one that curbs its inflation rate sooner than others is Dogecoin (in 2 months to be exact), but don't believe me, check the inflation figures.

I could understand if you guys started to invest in Monero 7-8 months ago when the bear market hadn't been confirmed yet, and optimism was high, but how can anyone still not see what's coming is truely beyond my understanding.

I know cryptos are hard to predict, but when the trend is confirmed, your common sense should prevail or you risk losing your shirt.

Yeah, the 'Bitcoin is deflationary' meme that's been around since the start has really bugged me and I think it's mislead a lot of people.

Bitcoin's money supply is inflationary. Bitcoin is price deflationary if and only if demand outstrips supply. Nothing about those two true statements imply that Bitcoin is inherently a deflationary currency.

People talk about distribution as if it's the most important thing. Personally I think people just want to know that the money that they buy is not going to lose value. Whether that's the rationally correct move in the long run I don' t know, but show people a pretty chart and some math showing that demand is increasing and money supply is not and I bet the vast majority of people couldn't care less if a few people hold the majority of the money supply. They'll just rationalize it by coming to the conclusion that since the money itself is price deflationary, it wouldn't be rational for big holders to divest anything more than the bare minimum they need to to support themselves. Similar to how it's not rational for an organization like Ghash to double spend, or attack the network in someway.

From the start I thought the Monero emission was insane. Especially when considering that to reach even the short term prices that some of the true believers were talking about you would be looking at close to six figures USD of XMR being mined daily. Even Bitcoin can't support it's relatively low inflation(to XMR, 10% is still huge) most of the time.

Monero could end up getting some big adoption, but I don't see any point in actually buying some until there's clearly enough demand to outstrip the massive amount of supply being produced. But it's also a chicken and egg thing, people want an anonymous currency, but they also want one that's going to hold value and have what they perceive as the best economic arrangement. XMR has like 3-4 years until this could actually happen from what I can tell. During that time a competitor could easily swoop in and capture the market. Another CN coin, or even one with inferior tech. It just has to be 'good enough'. If I see real Monero adoption I'll be the first one in line to buy some, the optimal strategy from my point of view is to put your money towards high demand, low to zero inflationary instruments until the time is right.

Inflation sucks, the only problem that needs to be solved is incentivizing people to secure the network. Both in PoW and PoS. Hard problem to solve, no one really knows if transaction fees is ever going to be sufficient. If they are then if some non-inflationary currency ends up getting some adoption it's going to look like a pretty attractive investment.

Thank you!
Very analytical and smart writing.
I couldn't more agree with you in every point you made.

Distribution is the most important thing, because Metcalfe's law.  Bitcoin and XMR are still in their distribution phases, but BTC has a 5 year head start and first mover advantage.  BTC benefited from 'near death experiences' as they fed its antifragility adversity to transmute into strength.  Enough people expect XMR ontogeny to recapitulate its BTC phylogeny sufficient for it to enjoy a Top 10 (minable) coin market cap, even at this early beta point of development.


Securing the network is only one problem, the other key issue is building services which facilitate that secure network providing value.

All of us hloding cheap early distribution phase XMR/BTC have incentive to flesh out those platforms, in order to increase the price of our stacks.

Experiments with faster and slower Cryptonote emission are being conducted by Darknote and Boolberry; we clearly see the market prefers XMR's middle path.

The market's preference of XMR as a whole tells us nothing of the success of an emission strategy. By that logic we should abandon crypto altogether, as the market clearly prefers fiat.