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Other => Politics & Society => Topic started by: Bitware on June 04, 2012, 09:42:06 AM



Title: stopping the war on coal
Post by: Bitware on June 04, 2012, 09:42:06 AM
new legislation .. this link will send an email to legislators supporting congressional bill that would overturn the EPS's UMACT rule, effectively killing the war on coal.

http://action.americancommitment.org/6675/vote-yes-on-sj-res-37-to-stop-epas-war-on-coal/


Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: bluefirecorp on June 04, 2012, 11:45:46 AM
Coal is almost as dirty as oil.
The only difference is that coal is found in abundance in North America, as opposed to oil, which is found in abundance in the middle east.
Coal, like oil, is non-renewable. That means it is a limited resource.

Did you know, there are alternatives to coal for power generation?


"The cost, according to EPA’s own estimate, is $10 billion per year.  A more realistic analysis from the national Economic Research Associates found compliance costs of $21 billion per year, with 183,000 lost jobs per year."

That figure doesn't make sense? How are you losing jobs when you are installing stuff? I mean, you have to have engineers to plan the placement of the 'retrofits'. Where do the job loses come from?


Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: cbeast on June 04, 2012, 12:42:11 PM
I don't care if energy costs quadruple if that's what it takes to break our addiction to carbon fuel. Cold turkey is sometimes the only cure.


Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: Bitware on June 05, 2012, 12:35:18 AM
What you need to know is that this has nothing to do with health and safety of Americans. Its about taxing us into poverty and losing our land and ability to survive and thrive because we cant afford the costs.

Coal has been clean energy since the Clean Air Act forced them to curb their emissions. The smoke you see from stacks is mostly steam form the emiisions hydro cleaning process.

The EPA is legislating mercury emissions. What few know is that they put mercury in our vaccines and mercury emissions in coal emissions is very low comparatively to other sources, some natural.

What few know is that the govenrment is giving waivers to their buddies in public/private partnerships just like they did with healthcare and other treasonous legislation. Most notably in the military industrial complex.

I would be happy to  pay quadruple energy costs, but the real costs we will be paying is jumping from $16 per megawatt to between $136 and $397 per megawatt. These are not estimates, but actual prices suppliers have contracted for 2015-2018, with the costs being passed on to the consumer (you and me). In other words, an 850% to 2480% increase in electricity costs to the general public depending on geographic location and provider.

If you have a $160 per month electric bill today, in 2015-2018 your electric bill will be between $1360.00 and $3970.00 PER MONTH.

Again, this is not estimate or forward looking statements, BUT THE ACTUAL REAL MARKET COSTS TO THE ELECTRICITY BUYER.

The price for everything we buy, use, and need to survive will increase the same as well.

Food, water, clothing, transportation, medical, housing, services, internet access, online services, even bitcoin generation. And everything else.

http://energycommerce.house.gov/news/PRArticle.aspx?NewsID=9534
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-05-18/business/chi-electric-rates-going-up-in-2015-20120518_1_electric-rates-electric-grid-capacity-payments
http://www.electricitypolicy.com/news/4372-pjm%E2%80%99s-capacity-auction-apt-to-boost-generator-profits-and-customer-prices-by-2015
http://www.citizensutilityboard.org/news20120517_ChiTrib_CapacityAndCoal.html
http://generationhub.com/2012/05/21/gop-says-pjm-auction-shows-result-of-obama-war-on
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/05/22/obamas-war-on-coal-hits-your-electric-bill/print#ixzz1vdALNXOI

please contact your legislators today to support legislation killing the EPA's UMACT coal requirements: http://action.americancommitment.org/6675/vote-yes-on-sj-res-37-to-stop-epas-war-on-coal/

and educate everyone you talk to.. please.


Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: cbeast on June 05, 2012, 12:45:15 AM
Green energy is about the same cost as carbon. When carbon taxes raise the costs of carbon energy by 4x, then green energy will be 4x cheaper. If you choose to use carbo energy, then you are forcing yourself into poverty. Save me the conspiracy theories. Show me how the taxes affect wind, water, nuclear, and solar power.


Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: benjamindees on June 05, 2012, 03:57:21 AM
Unfortunately, like many things the president says, I agree with him that coal prices should "necessarily skyrocket."  Unfortunately also, like many of the things the president says, I have yet to see any evidence that this has actually happened or is likely to happen in the future.


Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: justusranvier on June 05, 2012, 04:03:26 AM
Green energy is about the same cost as carbon. When carbon taxes raise the costs of carbon energy by 4x, then green energy will be 4x cheaper. If you choose to use carbo energy, then you are forcing yourself into poverty. Save me the conspiracy theories. Show me how the taxes affect wind, water, nuclear, and solar power.
Why didn't it work in Spain?


Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: FirstAscent on June 05, 2012, 04:14:26 AM
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3941


Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: Bitware on June 05, 2012, 07:39:20 AM
Green energy is about the same cost as carbon. When carbon taxes raise the costs of carbon energy by 4x, then green energy will be 4x cheaper. If you choose to use carbo energy, then you are forcing yourself into poverty. Save me the conspiracy theories. Show me how the taxes affect wind, water, nuclear, and solar power.

Post sources for your information please.

The electricity consumer has absolutely no choice between carbon based electricity and non-carbon based electricity.



Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: Bitware on June 05, 2012, 07:44:44 AM
Unfortunately also, like many of the things the president says, I have yet to see any evidence that this has actually happened or is likely to happen in the future.

Did you read the government links I posted.

It has already happened.

The EPA Utility MACT ... the electric providers already did their future contracts for the the rates based on the new EPA guidelines and dates I posted.

All done without congressional oversight or voting.

What happening is that we are trying to undo it.

It is cap and trade forced into law circumventing the legislature.


Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: hashman on June 05, 2012, 08:11:49 AM
I don't care if energy costs quadruple if that's what it takes to break our addiction to carbon fuel. Cold turkey is sometimes the only cure.


What?  Energy more expensive?  But I want to bring 2 tons of steel with me everywhere i go 100 miles a day and send a million watts of light into the night just because my parents did.  How do you expect us to pay for continued destruction of our most valuable resources?  You expect us to start living healthier and more fulfilling lives?  Sacrilege. 





Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: RodeoX on June 05, 2012, 02:09:58 PM
I don't care if energy costs quadruple if that's what it takes to break our addiction to carbon fuel. Cold turkey is sometimes the only cure.
+1


Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: bluefirecorp on June 05, 2012, 10:41:29 PM
Green energy is about the same cost as carbon. When carbon taxes raise the costs of carbon energy by 4x, then green energy will be 4x cheaper. If you choose to use carbo energy, then you are forcing yourself into poverty. Save me the conspiracy theories. Show me how the taxes affect wind, water, nuclear, and solar power.

Post sources for your information please.

The electricity consumer has absolutely no choice between carbon based electricity and non-carbon based electricity.



What? You can go online and buy solar panels. Sure, it's about 1.50 per watt or so, and payback time isn't for years, but DAMN.. might as well.


Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: benjamindees on June 06, 2012, 01:41:16 AM
If you have a $160 per month electric bill today, in 2015-2018 your electric bill will be between $1360.00 and $3970.00 PER MONTH.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-05-18/business/chi-electric-rates-going-up-in-2015-20120518_1_electric-rates-electric-grid-capacity-payments

Look, now you're just making things up.  I read a few of your articles, and they don't say this at all.  Instead, they say:

Quote
Your electric rates are going up but not until 2015.

That year, electric bills are set to be about $130 a year more than now

Most of the figures quoted are almost completely meaningless, wholesale costs for "demand" electricity that are going up in order to accommodate more variable renewable energy.  It has very little to do with end-user costs.


Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: cbeast on June 06, 2012, 02:22:47 AM
Green energy is about the same cost as carbon. When carbon taxes raise the costs of carbon energy by 4x, then green energy will be 4x cheaper. If you choose to use carbo energy, then you are forcing yourself into poverty. Save me the conspiracy theories. Show me how the taxes affect wind, water, nuclear, and solar power.

Post sources for your information please.

The electricity consumer has absolutely no choice between carbon based electricity and non-carbon based electricity.



What? You can go online and buy solar panels. Sure, it's about 1.50 per watt or so, and payback time isn't for years, but DAMN.. might as well.

Green power companies use much more efficient power sources than consumers. But you can ask any German about using solar cells when there are incentives for private homes to install them.


Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: bluefirecorp on June 06, 2012, 03:00:55 AM
Green energy is about the same cost as carbon. When carbon taxes raise the costs of carbon energy by 4x, then green energy will be 4x cheaper. If you choose to use carbo energy, then you are forcing yourself into poverty. Save me the conspiracy theories. Show me how the taxes affect wind, water, nuclear, and solar power.

Post sources for your information please.

The electricity consumer has absolutely no choice between carbon based electricity and non-carbon based electricity.



What? You can go online and buy solar panels. Sure, it's about 1.50 per watt or so, and payback time isn't for years, but DAMN.. might as well.

Green power companies use much more efficient power sources than consumers. But you can ask any German about using solar cells when there are incentives for private homes to install them.

Incentives in America too. Nice tax credits for 'em. Just a lot of paperwork, which people don't like.


Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: Bitware on June 06, 2012, 06:28:15 AM
Look, now you're just making things up.  I read a few of your articles, and they don't say this at all.

Please do the math.

Current cost for electricity based on coal fired hydro-electric is $16 per megawatt. I can attest this is accurate by my electric bill.

The real new costs that has already been agreed to contracted and signed is between $136 and $397 per megawatt.

That is indeed a 850% to 2480% increase.

Perhaps you should re-read the congressional site figures again.

No amount of pie-in-the-sky forward looking supposition, conjecture, and partisan rhetoric is going to change those figures.


Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: Bitware on June 06, 2012, 06:32:44 AM
Incentives in America too. Nice tax credits for 'em. Just a lot of paperwork, which people don't like.

The problem is few can afford to lay out $20,000 to $50,000 for enough kW of alternative energy generating products to defray the new high costs of electric and to run their homes, regardless of the current "incentives".

Go do some pricing for whole house solar solutions. I have.



Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: Bitware on June 06, 2012, 06:37:37 AM
What? You can go online and buy solar panels. Sure, it's about 1.50 per watt or so, and payback time isn't for years, but DAMN.. might as well.

Yes you can buy panels but you must have them professionally installed by an electrician certified in solar technology and you need permits. No electrician companies are around that will install 3rd party products. You must buy from them. Its a racket.

All I could afford is 2 kW of panels grid tied, and this included "incentives". It cost me $4.50 a watt installed plus $3000 for the GT inverter. And barely makes a dent in the electric bill. There is a difference but its very small.


Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: benjamindees on June 07, 2012, 04:48:48 AM
Current cost for electricity based on coal fired hydro-electric is $16 per megawatt. I can attest this is accurate by my electric bill.

Do you even know what a megawatt is?


Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: Bitware on June 07, 2012, 06:01:53 AM
Current cost for electricity based on coal fired hydro-electric is $16 per megawatt. I can attest this is accurate by my electric bill.

Do you even know what a megawatt is?

its a unit of elecricity/power equaling one million watts or 1000 kilowatts, etc.

if you wish to know more on how this relates to real world electricity usage and billing, please visit: http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/cost.html and http://www.tipsandtricks-hq.com/the-differences-between-power-watts-and-energy-kilowatts-hour-kwh-393

Now, there is quite a disparity between what providers pay for electricity and the end costs to the consumer. The wages for electric company employees, taxes, infrastructure and support costs (and much more) makes up the disparity.



Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: benjamindees on June 07, 2012, 07:06:36 AM
but the real costs we will be paying is jumping from $16 per megawatt to between $136 and $397 per megawatt.

Now, there is quite a disparity between what providers pay for electricity and the end costs to the consumer.

So, do you think this disparity accounts for the fact that you've read some articles you don't understand and have mistaken Watts for Watt-hours?


Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: Bitware on June 07, 2012, 09:04:02 AM
but the real costs we will be paying is jumping from $16 per megawatt to between $136 and $397 per megawatt.

Now, there is quite a disparity between what providers pay for electricity and the end costs to the consumer.

So, do you think this disparity accounts for the fact that you've read some articles you don't understand and have mistaken Watts for Watt-hours?

The disparity was explained to you.

Here is what you are either not understanding... or intentionally trying to confuse so others may not grasp its full effect and meaning:

The actual cost providers pay for electricity is going up between 850% and 2480%.

These price increases are a direct result of the war on coal.

These price increases are not estimates. They are already agreed to and contracted. These increases WILL HAPPEN unless we take measures to stop them.

These costs will be passed on the electricity consumer.

This means every electricity consumers bills will rise between 850% and 2480%.


... unless we contact our legislators and undo this financial rape only meant to decrease our wealth and ability to survive and thrive.

do it today before its to late: http://action.americancommitment.org/6675/vote-yes-on-sj-res-37-to-stop-epas-war-on-coal/


Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: benjamindees on June 07, 2012, 10:34:05 AM
Okay, you're trolling.  No one is this stupid.


Title: Re: stopping the war on coal
Post by: Kettenmonster on June 07, 2012, 11:05:36 AM
How dare you, to expect him to tell apart the difference in MW and MWh whilst power plants provide him with energy.  ;D