Bitcoin Forum

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UPDATE:  As of 6/10 it seems MtGox has recognized how unsustainable its position was and backed down.  The money was finally deposited and was converted to BTC and withdrawn with no further verification and it seems this has happened for others in this situation as well.  Let's hope this is the start of a more responsive and customer-respecting MtGox.
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Hello,

I just signed up to pass on a warning.

I'm a rather new BitCoin user who wanted to play around at SealsWithClubs (BTC poker).  In order to get some Bitcoins I set up Dwolla and MtGox accounts.  Over two months I made a handful of transactions of $100 from my bank->Dwolla->MtGox->BTC.

Everything worked smoothly up until a few days ago when I went to transfer another $100 into MtGox via Dwolla.  I waited and waited, but MtGox never posted the USD that was received from Dwolla into my MtGox account.  I went to MtGox support and they said they would not honor the deposit without further action by me since sometime after I initiated that transaction MtGox updated their terms to require all Dwolla deposits to go through an identity verification process.

I am fully verified by Dwolla to the point they have my SS# -- but I have no particular interest in providing MtGox with any further identifying information.  If that had been a standing requirement at the time of my transfer in, I simply wouldn't have transferred.  As such, I asked MtGox to kindly return the money that was in limbo to my Dwolla account since they would not post it to their system.

MtGox refuses to return the money to Dwolla, but continues to refuse to post it internally.  Meanwhile, Dwolla itself refuses to allow disputes on transactions that involve virtual currency...

...hence, MtGox has effectively stolen $100 from me by 'disappearing' it forever.

Given the rather small amount at stake, I can get on with my life, but I wanted to post a fair warning for anyone else.  Other deposit methods may not face the same problem at MtGox, but I would recommend caution dealing with any company which prefers to steal $100 on a pretense than simply return it to where it came from.

I've not seen where they've delayed incoming Dwolla transfers by more than a few hours.

So you are saying you did this transfer from Dwolla to Mt. Gox occurred prior to to May 25th and it was not immediately credited, and then now when you inquire they are imposing the new terms that went into place beginning May 25th?

 - https://mtgox.com/press_release_20120518.html

Now that is a shame, I tought MtGox was a good exchange site... :(

The same thing has happened to me and it was for $100 from the credit thing dwolla has now.
Heres some of the conversations Ive had with them:


Thank you for your email. Yes, Mt.Gox is correct, due to the nature of this business it is required that they verify their users before the funds can be transferred. Due to the fact that the funds are out of our system, there is nothing we can do to reverse or cancel the payment, I would recommend following the required steps to verify your account with the third party involved.

Thank you,
Dwolla Support



JUN 03, 2012  | 
Original message

I have tried to reverse the payment, Im pretty positive changing policies like this is against the law. I was not notified by dwolla or mtgox that my transactions would be frozen until I provide information I do not have to give. Im not sure if just mtgox is at fault or dwolla as well.(which mtgox claims)
Here is the email mt gox sent to me.

thanks, me

mt.gox support,
Hello,

Unfortunately we cannot reverse any deposits until users account has been verified. We understand this may be quite frustrating from our users point of view but we would appreciate if you could go through our AML process. Once we confirm that your account has been verified, funds will be credited into your Mt.Gox account balance.

Thanks,

MtGox.com Team

t.gox support, Jun 04
We did notify our users 2 weeks prior through our news feed page and also on couple of bitcoin talk forums. If you would like, soon as AML

has been approved and funds has been credited into your account we will be able to delete your account information.

Thanks,

MtGox.com Team


Me, Jun 03 :
I'm not sending any scanned documents because frankly I do not trust you with them. You have demonstrated incompetence in securing customer data in the past. Now I feel as though you are extorting me for information. . If you do not want to do business with unverified accounts don't let them make accounts or deposit.
Changing user agreements/polices without notification and an agreement from me is in fact illegal.


mt.gox support, Jun 03
Hello,

Unfortunately we cannot reverse any deposits until users account has been verified. We understand this may be quite frustrating from our users point of view but we would appreciate if you could go through our AML process. Once we confirm that your account has been verified, funds will be credited into your Mt.Gox account balance.

Thanks,

MtGox.com Team


 Jun 02
Username: Me

I need to cancel a deposit I made from dwolla.
It was 100 usd.

thanks me

I transferred money from Dwolla to MTGox on the 27th. Dwolla shows it cleared today but the funds haven't been added to my MTGox account. I have both accounts as verified so I don't know what the fuck is going on. I opened a ticket with MTGox 2 hours ago, still waiting on "assignment to help desk operator"

edit: 3 hours, still waiting for assignment to help desk operator. unbelievable.
edit 2: ok, did as the helpful gent below me recommended, and my account is now verified. going to close both my dwolla and mtgox accounts and just go through bitinstant -> coinapult now on. thanks dude.

Ok, for that, you used as the source of funds not your Dwolla balance, but a transfer from your bank.  So it hasn't been a week or whatever that Mt. Gox has had your money, they don't get the funds until Dwolla clears it (which you said just happened today).

So now, you are aware that for Mt. Gox to credit your Mt. Gox account with those funds that you will have to provide them with a photo id (in color).  Until you do so, those funds from Dwolla will sit in limbo.  Here's the next step to get your funds credited:
 - https://mtgox.com/forms/verification

MtGox needs a government issued photo id and a recent utility bill to verify the account. How expensive can it be to get a utility bill from you friend/neighbhor..stranger?, and buy a fake driver's license (for US residents/citizens)? It's not like they are going to call and verify. Most likely they just need an official looking utility bill where details can be photoshoped in ;))))

That's a darn good way to get your funds frozen for good.

Correct me if im wrong but even if they have your info, they still arent able to trace what you do with your coins.

They know which account withdrew which bitcoins.   So if they have your ID then they can tie identity to the bitcoins you've withdrwan.  From there, those bitcoins are traceable as that is tne nature of bitcoin transactions.   Mt. Gox does assist law enforcement in investigations.   So if your coins went somewhere and the authorities went backward through the transactions they'ld know they came from Mt. Gox, and Mt. Gox would know which account they were withdrawn from, and if they have your ID, they would know it was you.

That being said, if I were to withdraw and transact in a manner that maintains privacy before I spend, then it becomes much harder to trace.  That's why there's not been any bitcoin heists where the perpetrator has been caught, for instance, as they know how to transact anonymously.   Yet at the same time, Goat was able to trace his 400 BTC payment with the help of the bitcoin community (where there was no attempt to transact anonymously):
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=82600.msg918402#msg918402

The difference is,Goat sent them "incorrectly" so to speak,not that someone hacked his account & stole them...........in case of the latter,your screwed............like me :'(

I'm sorry I should have clarified the problem.

My problem is that MtGox will not reverse the transaction to Dwolla.  If they don't want to do business with me that's perfectly acceptable and their right, but to hold $100 dollars in some black hole unless I provide them with further information -- and to refuse to simply return the money to Dwolla where it came from, that is unacceptable.

The fact that a company would take that stance is proof enough that they can't be trusted with personal information.  Honest companies don't act in that way.

They posted and communicated their Dwolla AML (need photo id to use Dwolla) policy.  Ya, it sucks, sorry you weren't aware of it.  In addition, the Mt. Gox terms of service say they can require ID at any time for any reason. 

But they aren't going too change because there is a lot of whining on the BitcoinTalk forum.

There are several other exchanges which can be used nearly as easily as Mt. Gox.   Next time you want to send funds to an exchange, don't make the same mistake, ok?

So they are entitled to keep the $100?  What would you describe that as?  Profit?  They certainly provided no service.  I agree that any exchange, MtGox or the alternatives, are free to create whatever policies they like, however stealing user money under a pretense is deplorable.  If stating that fact sounds like 'whining' to you than I would question your neutrality in the matter.

Use Bitfloor. They have ACH withdrawals and some decent deposit methods.

At least you're only out $100... I'm out $10,000.

They are asking for a photo ID so that you can confirm that you truly are the individual who owns the Dwolla account.

You are refusing to give that to them, with the excuse that you can't trust them with that very valuable piece of information.

Fine.   But that was their policy for Dwolla since May 25th.  And when you signed up with Mt. Gox you agreed to the terms of service, which say:


I''m sorry that Mt. Gox is doing a shitty thing (requiring photo ID for all accounts that use Dwolla).  But whining (yes, after the first time, it now is considered whining) here on the forum isn't going to get you your $100 back.  Sending in your photo ID will get you your $100 back.  If you choose to not send in your photo id, you are free to do so, just that doing so will cause you to not get your $100 back.  It will eventually (years ?) be turned over to the authorities in Japan as abandoned property.

What a joker you are.  So if I am the person who owns the account, then they will reverse the transaction?

But if I was not the person who owned the Dwolla account, but rather if I transferred the money from someone else's Dwolla account... then they will keep it and not return it?

Get over yourself, they should reverse the transaction immediately.

Hey Stephen,  my balls are a little dry over here.....

Dont know what stevens deal is, he either getting a kickback or just likes sounding like a pompous idiot.

Anyways, I have the same prob my funda are in limbo and for them to not be able to reverse the transaction to the verified dwolla account makes no sense unless they are trying to collect.
I read that some of mtgoxs accounts were frozen and maybe thats why their doing these things in order to make money.
One guy said they delayed a wireless transfer for 3 days for no reason at all.
Sounds pretty stupid to me their gonna turn over the money to authorities,   (Steven...dumbass)
I figure they think people who are using the coins in a illegal manner wont verify and they get to pocket the money.
Like the the sound minded people here are saying (not stevens dumbass) any trusted establishment would not work this way.

i had problems with getting MtGox verified.  for some reason, they just had to have my photo ID on my drivers license, as well as the DL #. 

you can get your DL # changed, depending on your state laws.  for texas, you have to file a police report, then go to the DPS office

UPDATE!!!!!!!

Out the blue mtgox deposited my funds into my account, no verification.

Seems im able to use the funds to trade n what not.

Not out of the woods yet, hopefully im able to withdrawal them.

 ill let yall know.

Yes and lets all reflect on how stupid and unhelpful steven is. where is he? lol

Suck my balls Steven

Glad you got access to your funds.

Great to hear.

So do you plan to deposit Dwolla at Mt. Gox (without having your Mt. Gox account verified) again in the future?

The best I can tell, this is more likely a one-time pass for people whose deposits crossed paths with a new policy.  I wouldn't plan on trading with MtGox - especially using Dwolla - without making sure they are completely satisfied with your identity.

Of course not.  As stated in my original post - if that policy had been advertised at the time of my last deposit I wouldn't have made it.  Thanks to the folks on this thread for the suggestions on alternate exchanges.

That's a funny definition of arbitrage there.

Sorry steven for the insults, but I feel you owe us something for your negativity.

I for one will not be using mtgox anymore, can we be real here? some Americans know the dollar is going to shit and do not want our hard earn money to go down with it. Our government degrades  this country daily.
billions of fraud in our tax refund system, some lady was givin 2.1 million on a prepaid card. Our gov. wants us poor and wants us to completely depend on them.

BTW im not insinuating anything, but can I get a hell yeah

Total newb here... I still have like $5 at mtgox and .3BTC.... they can have it. After reading about the horror stories of people trying to get money out of mtgox I started searching around for another exchange. I created an account over at bitfloor to test everything out. On June 11th I sold 2BTC. Around 7:30pm I requested a $10 withdrawal. It was pending/hitting my bank account the next morning (june 12th). No Joke.

I'm gonna try out the cash deposit option they have soon. I'll report back.

I hope Bitfloor succeeds....

Just my .02BTC

Flame away....

It's getting *so* bad, I mean, one of the attractions--I thought--of using bitcoins, was so we could have a bit of anonymity...instead, now, it takes more id to get btc than it does real cash.  And I have total sympathy for poster...once you start down their 'verification' rabbit hole, it's gets truly spooky, as people don't seem to understand: they often don't *accept* your uploaded pictures, but don't really tell you that, so you end up in a sort of limbo with your own money.

This very thing started happening to me, so I did try to upload some pictures of driver's license, voter reg, all stuff I'd be frightened to get publicized...and after I uploaded???  Well...nothing happened to be honest...did they accept them, did they refuse them...are they 'thinking' about it?   I don't know...do you?   

See, MtGox holds all the cards, even when you try to do what they want...and then, worse nightmare, I figure, what the hell, I'll just go thru bitinstant to mtgox, I'm tired of this...and then I initiate that, u know, dwolla>bitinstant>mtgox ...ready to do just about anything to get my $500 out of dwolla--where it's useless--and in to somewhere I can get btc...

But then, in the middle of btc transaction, all of a sudden up pops a screen saying I'm not verified enough with--get this--*Dwolla!*--who I"have been using since, well since TradeHill days...and so I do the same thing on Dwolla, uplolad these pictures of vital docs...and they say, well, it'll be two business days...or something like that....

Well, here I am, a couple days later, no progress, but worse yet, how *unprofessional* all this is, and how rude these different places are with us...I mean, sure they have their defenders, and on good days, I've defended them too, but honestly, btc, the buying and selling of it, has become such a seller's market, and they treat us all as if we were gangster ripoff artists, rather than simply people who actually bought into the notion of a new currency not subject to all the repressive rules and regulations the 'old' currency was...but the party's over...I'll just take my lumps, put my dwolla money back in US currency, and be done with this madness...too bad, too sad, was a good idea when it started, but just progressively got worse and worse in its realization....

To MtGox's credit they're still here.

All of this stuff should make it pretty easy for the free market to develop viable competition, but nevertheless that has not happened for whatever reason(s).  Starting a Bitcoin exchange has to be risky business - not so much in terms of actual risk, but just that it's such new territory that the risk is unknowable in advance, and it certainly doesn't help that much of MtGox's former competition has simply shut down.  So I have to hand it to MtGox for still being the leading Bitcoin exchange.

That doesn't mean that the way MtGox does business is ideal, but it also doesn't mean that MtGox's way of doing business is any intrinisic property of Bitcoin.  It just means they have balls big enough to be willing to be a lightning rod for whatever fight comes Bitcoin's way.

Scary Stuff.