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Bitcoin => Bitcoin Discussion => Topic started by: Yankee (BitInstant) on June 06, 2012, 06:22:20 PM



Title: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Yankee (BitInstant) on June 06, 2012, 06:22:20 PM
Hey all,

In continuation with this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=78171.0

Many of us are heading to Vienna tomorrow to learn more about The BitcoinCard bitcoincard.org

We will blogging about it every day, giving you pictures, news, videos, and updates of the trip and our workshop.

A good team of people are going including Amir (Intersango), Gavin (Bitcoin), Erik Voorhees (Bitinstant), Roger Ver (Bitinstant), Nejc (Bitstamp) and more!

Here we go!!!

Wednesday June 6th Blog Post:  BitcoinCard : Vienna : The next evolution of Bitcoin (http://blog.bitinstant.com/blog/2012/6/6/bitcoincard-vienna-the-next-evolution-of-bitcoin.html)

Friday June 8th Blog Post:  BitcoinCard in Vienna Day 1: Coffee, missing ATM's, and some testing! (Pictures) (http://blog.bitinstant.com/blog/2012/6/8/bitcoincard-in-vienna-day-1-coffee-missing-atms-and-some-tes.html)





Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: FreeMoney on June 06, 2012, 06:29:32 PM
Quote
All we need to do is to try to live while using each others' services directly, without the participation of outside agents such as the dollar, and everything will be smooth sailing.

Right on.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: MoonShadow on June 06, 2012, 06:33:48 PM
I'll be waiting with baited breath!


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: austonst on June 06, 2012, 06:41:07 PM
I'll be waiting with baited breath!

Sally, having swallowed cheese,
Directs down holes the scented breeze,
Enticing thus with baited breath
Nice mice to an untimely death.

I'm looking forward to the info!


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: cbeast on June 06, 2012, 06:44:42 PM
I hope we can get a booth with these at the next 99% rally.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: MoonShadow on June 06, 2012, 06:46:42 PM
I hope we can get a booth with these at the next 99% rally.

Set one up and you will have one.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: World on June 06, 2012, 06:55:12 PM
It would be a nice surprise to see bitcoincard in the next issue of Bitcoin Magazine  :o


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: apetersson on June 06, 2012, 07:29:01 PM
I'm already very exited and looking forward to meeting everyone there :)


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: wareen on June 06, 2012, 08:06:18 PM
Quote from: Yankee (BitInstant)
But seriously, would you turn down a chance to reinvent the future of technology with a bunch of Europeans who barely speak your language? Like I said 'Why the hell not!'

Indeed!

We from the Austrian Bitcoin community are happy to get the chance to meet you all and talk about the potential of this great piece of technology. It'll be a very interesting event for sure (despite the strange language of us Europeans ;))


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: rjk on June 06, 2012, 08:08:48 PM
It would be a nice surprise to see bitcoincard in the next issue of Bitcoin Magazine  :o
Fat chance, apparently MNW is developing a competitor to it that he doesn't want anyone to know about, so he probably wouldn't allow such an article to be included.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Xenland on June 06, 2012, 08:26:53 PM
It would be a nice surprise to see bitcoincard in the next issue of Bitcoin Magazine  :o
Fat chance, apparently MNW is developing a competitor to it that he doesn't want anyone to know about, so he probably wouldn't allow such an article to be included.
My thoughts exactly...  8)


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: hazek on June 07, 2012, 02:27:15 AM
Man I wish I learned about this sooner, I live just 200km away from Vienna  :-\


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Kris on June 08, 2012, 10:30:25 AM
I am currently talking with Nejc and it seems interesting. If I can manage getting the plane tickets I might attend as well.

Regards

Kris

WalletBit(tm)
https://walletbit.com

EDIT:

My passport is expired. Sorry.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Matthew N. Wright on June 08, 2012, 10:47:06 AM
It would be a nice surprise to see bitcoincard in the next issue of Bitcoin Magazine  :o
Fat chance, apparently MNW is developing a competitor to it that he doesn't want anyone to know about, so he probably wouldn't allow such an article to be included.

My role at Bitcoin Magazine isn't to exclude legitimate stories of innovation in Bitcoin. It's to include legitimate news. When bitcoincard is proven to be more than just an over-hyped self-contradicting pipe dream website, I would be more than happy to write an entire piece on it for the print issue. The same goes for MintChip (which will probably end up as a colossal  failure but I hope -that- succeeds as well as it serves a purpose).

If the Ellet ever gets an article, it'll be because it's been proven, not because I have some kind of special interest in it. Your horridly inaccurate underestimation of our journalistic integrity is quite sickening. I want the same thing you want-- less bullshit and vaporware and more movement. Yet instead of bothering to build something or participate in a movement, you prefer to poke fun at me and all my personal advances in the Bitcoin economy. Classy.

Open your eyes to the facts: why don't these bitcoincard guys stick to what they say instead of completely contradicting themselves in their uberhype videos? "Doesn't rely on infrastructure"? What do you call requiring everyone in the world to hold a gateway repeater to the benefit of their neighbors? What do you call a USB dongle? Give me a break. I hope this is all clarified in this trip (that's why they're going afterall), but I'm not holding my breath because we've already found the solution and don't need to wait on anyone else.

As a community, we're all waiting to see what Erik and Charlie gather on their trip to Vienna, but I can't say I personally have much faith in any of this being more than fishing for investors for a product that markets itself as a privacy invasive DOA piece of hardware that requires a major rebuilding of a communications infrastructure just so you can be force fed ads.



Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: lonelyminer (Peter Šurda) on June 08, 2012, 10:56:40 AM
Where is the workshop, when is it and is it open for public?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Raoul Duke on June 08, 2012, 11:18:35 AM
I am currently talking with Nejc and it seems interesting. If I can manage getting the plane tickets I might attend as well.

Regards

Kris

WalletBit(tm)
https://walletbit.com

EDIT:

My passport is expired. Sorry.

Since when do you need a passport to travel inside the EU? lol
Aren't Denmark and Austria member states? ;)


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Kris on June 08, 2012, 11:24:48 AM
I am currently talking with Nejc and it seems interesting. If I can manage getting the plane tickets I might attend as well.

Regards

Kris

WalletBit(tm)
https://walletbit.com

EDIT:

My passport is expired. Sorry.

Since when do you need a passport to travel inside the EU? lol
Aren't Denmark and Austria member states? ;)

Yeah I know lame right, but I did some searching and you apparently need it none the less.

Extra information, you need fingerprint in your passport now as well...

Open borders in my BIIP.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Sukrim on June 08, 2012, 12:17:12 PM
You need to carry one (and it needs to be valid...) but you might not need to show it during your whole trip, depending on if you go by car/plane/train...

I'm doubtful about the fingerprint stuff, you might need to give fingerprints to get a passport, but Austria doesn't reject you, if your passport is not biometric (at least if you're from Denmark).


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: genjix on June 08, 2012, 12:51:54 PM
If anyone wants a place to stay, I have an extra bed and a sofa for people to crash on. Also lots of floor space.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: rjk on June 08, 2012, 01:09:45 PM
It would be a nice surprise to see bitcoincard in the next issue of Bitcoin Magazine  :o
Fat chance, apparently MNW is developing a competitor to it that he doesn't want anyone to know about, so he probably wouldn't allow such an article to be included.

My role at Bitcoin Magazine isn't to exclude legitimate stories of innovation in Bitcoin. It's to include legitimate news. When bitcoincard is proven to be more than just an over-hyped self-contradicting pipe dream website, I would be more than happy to write an entire piece on it for the print issue. The same goes for MintChip (which will probably end up as a colossal  failure but I hope -that- succeeds as well as it serves a purpose).

If the Ellet ever gets an article, it'll be because it's been proven, not because I have some kind of special interest in it. Your horridly inaccurate underestimation of our journalistic integrity is quite sickening. I want the same thing you want-- less bullshit and vaporware and more movement. Yet instead of bothering to build something or participate in a movement, you prefer to poke fun at me and all my personal advances in the Bitcoin economy. Classy.

Open your eyes to the facts: why don't these bitcoincard guys stick to what they say instead of completely contradicting themselves in their uberhype videos? "Doesn't rely on infrastructure"? What do you call requiring everyone in the world to hold a gateway repeater to the benefit of their neighbors? What do you call a USB dongle? Give me a break. I hope this is all clarified in this trip (that's why they're going afterall), but I'm not holding my breath because we've already found the solution and don't need to wait on anyone else.

As a community, we're all waiting to see what Erik and Charlie gather on their trip to Vienna, but I can't say I personally have much faith in any of this being more than fishing for investors for a product that markets itself as a privacy invasive DOA piece of hardware that requires a major rebuilding of a communications infrastructure just so you can be force fed ads.


Number one reason why you need an "Announcements" account and a "trolling account". Also your view is being jaded because you are competition, so I think we shall just sit back and see what happens. Furthermore, that statement was from before you actually made the "Ellet" announcement and gave more than just superficial details about it, so gimme a break.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Pieter Wuille on June 08, 2012, 02:37:04 PM
I was in Vienna 3 days ago. If only I had known about this...


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Serith on June 08, 2012, 03:44:00 PM
It would be a nice surprise to see bitcoincard in the next issue of Bitcoin Magazine  :o
Fat chance, apparently MNW is developing a competitor to it that he doesn't want anyone to know about, so he probably wouldn't allow such an article to be included.

My role at Bitcoin Magazine isn't to exclude legitimate stories of innovation in Bitcoin. It's to include legitimate news. When bitcoincard is proven to be more than just an over-hyped self-contradicting pipe dream website, I would be more than happy to write an entire piece on it for the print issue. The same goes for MintChip (which will probably end up as a colossal  failure but I hope -that- succeeds as well as it serves a purpose).

If the Ellet ever gets an article, it'll be because it's been proven, not because I have some kind of special interest in it. Your horridly inaccurate underestimation of our journalistic integrity is quite sickening. I want the same thing you want-- less bullshit and vaporware and more movement. Yet instead of bothering to build something or participate in a movement, you prefer to poke fun at me and all my personal advances in the Bitcoin economy. Classy.

Open your eyes to the facts: why don't these bitcoincard guys stick to what they say instead of completely contradicting themselves in their uberhype videos? "Doesn't rely on infrastructure"? What do you call requiring everyone in the world to hold a gateway repeater to the benefit of their neighbors? What do you call a USB dongle? Give me a break. I hope this is all clarified in this trip (that's why they're going afterall), but I'm not holding my breath because we've already found the solution and don't need to wait on anyone else.

As a community, we're all waiting to see what Erik and Charlie gather on their trip to Vienna, but I can't say I personally have much faith in any of this being more than fishing for investors for a product that markets itself as a privacy invasive DOA piece of hardware that requires a major rebuilding of a communications infrastructure just so you can be force fed ads.

I think you should have this discussion in it's dedicated thread: [ANN] Coming next week-- the world's first handheld Bitcoin device, the Ellet! (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=85931.0). I came here to read details about bitcoincard and form opinion, and from another thread we already know your point of view, so I don't think there is a need to reiterate it.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: MemoryDealers on June 08, 2012, 03:53:37 PM
I'm heading to the airport for Vienna in about 2 hours.
I will tweet about any exciting developments that come from the meetings.

You can follow me at  https://twitter.com/#!/rogerkver (https://twitter.com/#!/rogerkver)


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: MoonShadow on June 09, 2012, 12:23:09 AM
That was hours ago.  Couldn't tweet from the airport?  Did TSA lock you up?  Anal probe your laptop?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Yankee (BitInstant) on June 09, 2012, 12:33:52 AM
New blog post:

BitcoinCard in Vienna Day 1: Coffee, missing ATM's, and some testing! (Pictures)

http://blog.bitinstant.com/blog/2012/6/8/bitcoincard-in-vienna-day-1-coffee-missing-atms-and-some-tes.html


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: MoonShadow on June 09, 2012, 01:11:41 AM
New blog post:

BitcoinCard in Vienna Day 1: Coffee, missing ATM's, and some testing! (Pictures)

http://blog.bitinstant.com/blog/2012/6/8/bitcoincard-in-vienna-day-1-coffee-missing-atms-and-some-tes.html

Alright, that's already enough.  I want to put an order in for at least 10 of the first run.  And a gateway device that I can plug into my router.  I'll put it on my roof and cover my entire neighborhood.  Then I'll take them to the farmers' market that occurs every Saturday across the street from my house and see what I can do with them.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: MoonShadow on June 09, 2012, 01:12:33 AM

why do they have letter tags on them? 


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: REF on June 09, 2012, 01:27:17 AM
Ill take 6 and 2 gateway devices too! I love that its the size of a credit card!In the picture with 4 of them laying on the desk they look huge that picture was taken at a weird angle.

why do they have letter tags on them? 
good catch it looks like that. perhaps for testing and identifying which card they used?

It looks like a slighly different card. notice the numbers missing underneath the screen.
from the products page on their website
http://bitcoincard.org/upload/bitcoincard_demo_1024.jpg
from today, it no longer says bitcoincard.org across the top either. (image is huge so I linked to it)
http://blog.bitinstant.com/storage/Photo%20Jun%2008%204%2046%2044%20PM.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1339201784462 (http://blog.bitinstant.com/storage/Photo%20Jun%2008%204%2046%2044%20PM.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1339201784462)


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: FreeMoney on June 09, 2012, 02:01:02 AM
Quote
Tomorrow we head back for more discussion and testing. I'm also meeting up with Frank from VirWox.com and may even get to fly a small plane!

Will it also be the size of a CC?

Thanks for the update!


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: cbeast on June 09, 2012, 02:14:30 AM
New blog post:

BitcoinCard in Vienna Day 1: Coffee, missing ATM's, and some testing! (Pictures)

http://blog.bitinstant.com/blog/2012/6/8/bitcoincard-in-vienna-day-1-coffee-missing-atms-and-some-tes.html

Alright, that's already enough.  I want to put an order in for at least 10 of the first run.  And a gateway device that I can plug into my router.  I'll put it on my roof and cover my entire neighborhood.  Then I'll take them to the farmers' market that occurs every Saturday across the street from my house and see what I can do with them.
Dude, if these and Matthew's devices do what they say they do we need to set up camp on Wall Street and show those pissant Occupiers how it is done.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: MoonShadow on June 09, 2012, 02:26:03 AM
New blog post:

BitcoinCard in Vienna Day 1: Coffee, missing ATM's, and some testing! (Pictures)

http://blog.bitinstant.com/blog/2012/6/8/bitcoincard-in-vienna-day-1-coffee-missing-atms-and-some-tes.html

Alright, that's already enough.  I want to put an order in for at least 10 of the first run.  And a gateway device that I can plug into my router.  I'll put it on my roof and cover my entire neighborhood.  Then I'll take them to the farmers' market that occurs every Saturday across the street from my house and see what I can do with them.
Dude, if these and Matthew's devices do what they say they do we need to set up camp on Wall Street and show those pissant Occupiers how it is done.

Go for it.  I don't live anywhere near Wall Street.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: unclescrooge on June 09, 2012, 10:03:30 AM
That looks awesome.

So what's next?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: cbeast on June 09, 2012, 10:29:19 AM
New blog post:

BitcoinCard in Vienna Day 1: Coffee, missing ATM's, and some testing! (Pictures)

http://blog.bitinstant.com/blog/2012/6/8/bitcoincard-in-vienna-day-1-coffee-missing-atms-and-some-tes.html

Alright, that's already enough.  I want to put an order in for at least 10 of the first run.  And a gateway device that I can plug into my router.  I'll put it on my roof and cover my entire neighborhood.  Then I'll take them to the farmers' market that occurs every Saturday across the street from my house and see what I can do with them.
Dude, if these and Matthew's devices do what they say they do we need to set up camp on Wall Street and show those pissant Occupiers how it is done.

Go for it.  I don't live anywhere near Wall Street.
Yeah, I don't either. And I can't believe I asked you to go camping.  ::)
I am rethinking this concept. Since these are communication devices, there is no reason protests can't coordinate from anywhere. Protests can be combined with flash swap meets, and attract vendors that will be interested in Bitcoin. All I'm really trying to convey is that it's time to go PUBLIC and take a stand on Bitcoin for Main Street.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: cbeast on June 10, 2012, 02:15:58 PM
This thing is so revolutionary, it needs a whole new way to carry it around. It needs to be worn openly, but still be accessible. Maybe pinned onto a pocket or lapel. Maybe dangling from a lanyard or blinged out on a gold chain. Maybe like a pocket watch. It's just to cool to carry in your pocket unless you want to hide it.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: MoonShadow on June 10, 2012, 05:10:43 PM
I want details.  Come on guys, give us an update.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: wareen on June 10, 2012, 05:37:56 PM
Not that much news yet - we saw some demos and had some interesting discussions about various technical, organizational and financial aspects. Tomorrow will be the last day of the workshop, Roger arrived yesterday and Gavin already left today. I expect a rather intense final session tomorrow and I'm sure Charlie and Erik will report their impressions.

This workshop was just the beginning and collaboration with the great guys from bitcoincard will surely continue!


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: crazy_rabbit on June 10, 2012, 05:48:13 PM
Looks awesome, and of course- I want one. (Or many!)

Still begs the question as to why it's better then having it already in the smart-phones people already own. I think it will be hard to get people to both adopt a new currency AND carry a new wallet around.

But it looks nothing short of awesome. :-)


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Deafboy on June 10, 2012, 05:59:50 PM
If I knew about this event sooner, I could took a BUS to go to Vienna ! It's less than hour away...  :(


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: matonis on June 11, 2012, 12:14:42 PM
Looks awesome, and of course- I want one. (Or many!)

Still begs the question as to why it's better then having it already in the smart-phones people already own. I think it will be hard to get people to both adopt a new currency AND carry a new wallet around.

But it looks nothing short of awesome. :-)


Bitcoin apps for existing smartphones can still be used. But this claims to offer bitcoin connectivity without a mobile carrier and without local electricity, both of which could be considered single points of failure under a repressive regime.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Matthew N. Wright on June 11, 2012, 12:29:18 PM
Looks awesome, and of course- I want one. (Or many!)

Still begs the question as to why it's better then having it already in the smart-phones people already own. I think it will be hard to get people to both adopt a new currency AND carry a new wallet around.

But it looks nothing short of awesome. :-)


Bitcoin apps for existing smartphones can still be used. But this claims to offer bitcoin connectivity without a mobile carrier and without local electricity, both of which could be considered single points of failure under a repressive regime.

This is a good point of focus for the Bitcoincard's claims as having a solar panel for electricity and an ad-hoc network consisting of other individuals with the card would at least on it's face sound like a good solution.

This issue that needs to be discussed however is that although we would all love such a device (myself included!) it's straight from a fairytale. Anyone in the electronics industry can tell you that the e-ink screen, radio transmitter/receiver and other functions of the device cannot be run by such a small solar panel, in fact, it would need a battery the size of the whole card just to run an hour more than likely.

Also, the network they present does in fact require infrastructure that doesn't exist but could also be controlled by a repressive regime (they can detect signals quite easily and locate them wherever they may be if they really wanted to).

I don't think in 2012 the question is "do we want something decentralized?". The answer to that question is an obvious "Yes". The real question is, "Who actually believes this technology actually works and this isn't just a fishing expedition for investors into a technology that doesn't do what it claims to do yet?".

I realize we're waiting on Charlie, Erik and others to return with more information, but any professional in the electronics field will tell you that the technology they claim doesn't exist yet and won't for another 20 years perhaps. If it were so easy, why wouldn't your iphone just have a solar panel on the back of it? Why would anyone be using GSM/CDMA in the first place?

Ask the correct questions people. A few photos of a shell doth a new technology maketh not.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: DublinBrian on June 11, 2012, 12:58:02 PM
Anyone in the electronics industry can tell you that the e-ink screen, radio transmitter/receiver and other functions of the device cannot be run by such a small solar panel, in fact, it would need a battery the size of the whole card just to run an hour more than likely.
Im not sure thats true. RFID chips can transmit, without any battery at all, by harvesting power from a coil.This card will have no problem running and transmitting transactions.

The limitation will be range. Users will need to be within a few metres of each other for these cards to make connections.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: matonis on June 11, 2012, 01:11:02 PM

Not sure if you are serious? 

Lets add the caveat of

Quote
Bitcoin apps for existing smartphones can still be used. But this claims to offer bitcoin connectivity without a mobile carrier and without local electricity, but requiring a gateway access that needs local electricity and local internet connectivity, both of which could be considered single points of failure under a repressive regime.

Unless the goal is for people under repressive regimes to cross the closed borders to open regimes and sync their devices with the blockchain via a gateway and then return to the repressive regimes. :)


Well, partially serious. It's all relative, I suppose. Imagine a scenario where only a few gateway computers with Internet connectivity do exist inside of the Nation-State but not necessarily available to the masses. A wireless mesh (or ad hoc) network is not new technology and it operates on an unregulated part of the bandwidth spectrum. In this scenario, reliance is not placed on the mobile telecom provider which has been a target previously in the countries that have wanted to quell social networking. Eliminating, or reducing, points of failure should be the goal.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: MoonShadow on June 11, 2012, 01:20:34 PM

This issue that needs to be discussed however is that although we would all love such a device (myself included!) it's straight from a fairytale. Anyone in the electronics industry can tell you that the e-ink screen, radio transmitter/receiver and other functions of the device cannot be run by such a small solar panel, in fact, it would need a battery the size of the whole card just to run an hour more than likely.


Come on, Matt; you know that's bullshit.  I have an android phone that has an 800mhz processor and a battery the size of this card, and it can standby for three days.  This card has something on the order of an 8 or 16 mhz processor, I'd wager.  E-ink doesn't take much.  My Kindle 3 has an ARM processor of around 650 Mhz and 256 meg or ram (an order of magnitude greater than this card requires for primary functions) and it makes three weeks on standby.  Six months on a charge is, of course, an unrealistic claim.  But one hour?  Seriously?

Quote
Also, the network they present does in fact require infrastructure that doesn't exist but could also be controlled by a repressive regime (they can detect signals quite easily and locate them wherever they may be if they really wanted to).

This is a fair critique.  However, the creators didn't make any claims that it could be used against repressive regimes.

Quote

I don't think in 2012 the question is "do we want something decentralized?". The answer to that question is an obvious "Yes". The real question is, "Who actually believes this technology actually works and this isn't just a fishing expedition for investors into a technology that doesn't do what it claims to do yet?".

I realize we're waiting on Charlie, Erik and others to return with more information, but any professional in the electronics field will tell you that the technology they claim doesn't exist yet and won't for another 20 years perhaps. If it were so easy, why wouldn't your iphone just have a solar panel on the back of it? Why would anyone be using GSM/CDMA in the first place?

Ask the correct questions people. A few photos of a shell doth a new technology maketh not.

Whether this device actually exists or not, or does what it claims or not, it certainly is presently possible for devices to mesh network quite effectively right now.  The Serval Project attempts to do exactly that with existing wifi hardware on smartphones, although wifi sucks for this purpose.  If smartphones started being made with a 'sensor' style network transceiver, such as Zigbee (good) or Dash7 (better) than we would see all kinds of apps that took advantage of local peerage connections.  An app similar to 'NearMe' would likely become available immediately and p2p texting would become a high-schoolers' main method of communication during school hours.  One reason that manufacturers don't include such network hardware is that carriers see such capabilities as a threat to their business model, particularly their texting and data business model, and rightly so.  There is no way that mesh networking is ever going to be able to handle voice or major data traffic, due to contraints of physics, but small bits of data (such as those apps that are regularly 'checking in' or even a twitter watching app) or apps that trade larger chunks of data but between people in a physical area (like bitcoin) are ideal for sensor networks.  Another reason that cell manufacturers don't make these now is because consumers don't really demand them.  Like yourself, there aren't many that understand their value if one has to have a data plan anyway, which one most certainly would for many years at least.  Not necessarily for bitcoin or local texting, but taken as a whole whatever reductions that moving each of these functions, even completely, off of the dataplan would be a relatively insignificant reduction on the data usage.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Matthew N. Wright on June 11, 2012, 01:26:50 PM
Whether this device actually exists or not, or does what it claims or not, it certainly is presently possible for devices to mesh network quite effectively right now.  The Serval Project attempts to do exactly that with existing wifi hardware on smartphones, although wifi sucks for this purpose.  If smartphones started being made with a 'sensor' style network transceiver, such as Zigbee (good) or Dash7 (better) than we would see all kinds of apps that took advantage of local peerage connections.  An app similar to 'NearMe' would likely become available immediately and p2p texting would become a high-schoolers' main method of communication during school hours.  One reason that manufacturers don't include such network hardware is that carriers see such capabilities as a threat to their business model, particularly their texting and data business model, and rightly so.  There is no way that mesh networking is ever going to be able to handle voice or major data traffic, due to contraints of physics, but small bits of data (such as those apps that are regularly 'checking in' or even a twitter watching app) or apps that trade larger chunks of data but between people in a physical area (like bitcoin) are ideal for sensor networks.  Another reason that cell manufacturers don't make these now is because consumers don't really demand them.  Like yourself, there aren't many that understand their value if one has to have a data plan anyway, which one most certainly would for many years at least.  Not necessarily for bitcoin or local texting, but taken as a whole whatever reductions that moving each of these functions, even completely, off of the dataplan would be a relatively insignificant reduction on the data usage.

I'm absolutely ecstatic about the possibility of things working off of a close-proximity network. I don't however think that it will work for Bitcoin the way they're intending. Can't wait to see what can be come up with in the future!


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: cbeast on June 11, 2012, 01:30:31 PM
I'm absolutely ecstatic about the possibility of things working off of a close-proximity network. I don't however think that it will work for Bitcoin the way they're intending. Can't wait to see what can be come up with in the future!
It's good to be skeptical. I hope to be reading about this in your magazine one day when I buy it at the bookstore.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: MoonShadow on June 11, 2012, 01:31:06 PM

Not sure if you are serious? 

Lets add the caveat of

Quote
Bitcoin apps for existing smartphones can still be used. But this claims to offer bitcoin connectivity without a mobile carrier and without local electricity, but requiring a gateway access that needs local electricity and local internet connectivity, both of which could be considered single points of failure under a repressive regime.

Unless the goal is for people under repressive regimes to cross the closed borders to open regimes and sync their devices with the blockchain via a gateway and then return to the repressive regimes. :)


Well, partially serious. It's all relative, I suppose. Imagine a scenario where only a few gateway computers with Internet connectivity do exist inside of the Nation-State but not necessarily available to the masses. A wireless mesh (or ad hoc) network is not new technology and it operates on an unregulated part of the bandwidth spectrum. In this scenario, reliance is not placed on the mobile telecom provider which has been a target previously in the countries that have wanted to quell social networking. Eliminating, or reducing, points of failure should be the goal.

Or, in this case; imagine if a repressive regime began hunting for gateway transceivers.  How long would it take before agencies in other nations began setting up high quality, highly directional gear just across their borders to function as a gateway to those who live near the border?  If a few ham radio geeks can get a standard wifi card to connect over 100 miles with an antenna made from a soup can, much more is possible with mesh protocols that are deliberately designed for distance over bandwidth.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Bigpiggy01 on June 11, 2012, 03:20:11 PM
Or, in this case; imagine if a repressive regime began hunting for gateway transceivers.  How long would it take before agencies in other nations began setting up high quality, highly directional gear just across their borders to function as a gateway to those who live near the border?  If a few ham radio geeks can get a standard wifi card to connect over 100 miles with an antenna made from a soup can, much more is possible with mesh protocols that are deliberately designed for distance over bandwidth.

The essence of this is one of the greatest possibilities of bitcoin tech in general. The value of this type of service to people in a lot of places simply can not be over estimated.

I'm absolutely ecstatic about the possibility of things working off of a close-proximity network. I don't however think that it will work for Bitcoin the way they're intending. Can't wait to see what can be come up with in the future!

How exactly will a physical wallet that transacts over a local network not work for bitcoin? Where's the difference between sticking a wad of bills in your wallet/pocket then going off shopping or loading up your wallet?

The fact that it doesn't work over traditional networking protocols would be much more of a strength than a weakness in terms of security.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Matthew N. Wright on June 11, 2012, 03:26:15 PM
The fact that it doesn't work over traditional networking protocols would be much more of a strength than a weakness in terms of security.

I can see how you might think a door that has no keyhole can be good for security but you're forgetting about accessibility.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: rjk on June 11, 2012, 03:47:40 PM
The fact that it doesn't work over traditional networking protocols would be much more of a strength than a weakness in terms of security.

I can see how you might think a door that has no keyhole can be good for security but you're forgetting about accessibility.
It has a keyhole, it's just a different one that you aren't used to or comfortable with. "Try it, you might like it"


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Bigpiggy01 on June 11, 2012, 04:16:40 PM
The fact that it doesn't work over traditional networking protocols would be much more of a strength than a weakness in terms of security.

I can see how you might think a door that has no keyhole can be good for security but you're forgetting about accessibility.

http://i.imgur.com/yvkSq.jpg?1

As to accessibility I don't see how this is different to handing a guy a wad of cash you took out of your safe at home.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Yankee (BitInstant) on June 11, 2012, 04:19:48 PM
The fact that it doesn't work over traditional networking protocols would be much more of a strength than a weakness in terms of security.

I can see how you might think a door that has no keyhole can be good for security but you're forgetting about accessibility.
It has a keyhole, it's just a different one that you aren't used to or comfortable with. "Try it, you might like it"

We've been walking around town testing it and it truly is revolutionary.

Alot of the technical aspects we all had to sign a non-confidentiality however Erik (who is a MUCH better writer than I am has been preparing a blog post)

I can tell you that ALL of your problems have been thought about and addressed. There is alot of money behind this project, in the double digit millions.

Feel free to pick my brain about it, Ill answer what I can


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: hazek on June 11, 2012, 04:28:49 PM
With that much money behind it I assume it's not meant for Bitcoin use exclusively, or?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: istar on June 11, 2012, 04:31:45 PM
Is not the Bitcoin card perfect for countries like Africa...

Oh and one critique. The looks dont work for it. It looks a bit too much like a toy with all those colors.  
I know what I´m talking about. Colors are good for useability. But look at the mobilephones.
People can use them anyway. There is no need for all those colors.
 
Dont underestimate the bad impact of boring design and the good impact of good looking design, it is the most common developer misstake. I have worked with some of the worlds top coders and they just dont understand the impact of design.
They make the misstake of thinking, I dont care so I really dont think anyone else cares. But its quite the opposite.
They are in a tiny minority.

People judge things by their appearance.  If it looks good, it must be good and it gives the owner status.
If it looks ugly, you dont want to flash it around.

Make one in Black and gold. People low to flash their gold VISA cards.





 



Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: REF on June 11, 2012, 04:36:53 PM
If a vendor/store had a USB gateway wouldnt that be enough to process POS transactions? Wouldnt the mesh network be needed to send coins to someone on the other side of town? And if each of you are next to USB gateways, again would it not matter if there was a mesh network?

Is not the Bitcoin card perfect for countries like Africa...

Oh and one critique. The looks dont work for it. It looks a bit too much like a toy with all those colors.  
I know what I´m talking about. Colors are good for useability. But look at the mobilephones.
People can use them anyway. There is no need for all those colors.
 
Dont underestimate the bad impact of boring design and the good impact of good looking design, it is the most common developer misstake. I have worked with some of the worlds top coders and they just dont understand the impact of design.
They make the misstake of thinking, I dont care so I really dont think anyone else cares. But its quite the opposite.
They are in a tiny minority.

People judge things by their appearance.  If it looks good, it must be good and it gives the owner status.
If it looks ugly, you dont want to flash it around.

Make one in Black and gold. People low to flash their gold VISA cards.

personally I like the design of the card they have been showing but I completely agree people judge things by their appearance black/gold/silver option in the future would be great.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: rjk on June 11, 2012, 04:37:19 PM
Charlie, could you give us some tx IDs of some of your test transactions with them?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: minimalB on June 11, 2012, 04:41:34 PM
What happens if gateway (active node) is not available? Can you still make offline TX from card to card in proximity?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: cbeast on June 11, 2012, 04:44:27 PM
I bet Gavin got one or two of the prototypes and is digging into it as we speak. I hope we get a status report soon.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: phatsphere on June 11, 2012, 04:46:37 PM
The looks dont work for it. It looks a bit too much like a toy with all those colors.  
This is just a technological prototype for preview.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Matthew N. Wright on June 11, 2012, 04:56:28 PM
Alot of the technical aspects we all had to sign a non-confidentiality however Erik (who is a MUCH better writer than I am has been preparing a blog post)

Is that the opposite of a non-disclosure agreement?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: proudhon on June 11, 2012, 05:07:24 PM
Alot of the technical aspects we all had to sign a non-confidentiality however Erik (who is a MUCH better writer than I am has been preparing a blog post)

Is that the opposite of a non-disclosure agreement?


Yes, full details to follow soon!


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: evoorhees on June 11, 2012, 05:07:44 PM
Alot of the technical aspects we all had to sign a non-confidentiality however Erik (who is a MUCH better writer than I am has been preparing a blog post)

Is that the opposite of a non-disclosure agreement?


LOL yes Matt you got Charlie there ;)  It was indeed a non-disclosure agreement that we signed. We are basically allowed to talk about functionality, appearance, pricing etc, but not about some of the technical specs of the internal components (many of which were developed in house by their team). Since I can't understand tech specs anyway (beyond my expertise) I wouldn't be able to divulge that info regardless :)


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: minorman on June 11, 2012, 05:08:20 PM
Watching this!
I think this kind of technology is going to shut up many of the naysayers. Oh look, my Bitcoin gadget is also a mesh-net device. So cool.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: evoorhees on June 11, 2012, 05:10:42 PM
Anyone in the electronics industry can tell you that the e-ink screen, radio transmitter/receiver and other functions of the device cannot be run by such a small solar panel, in fact, it would need a battery the size of the whole card just to run an hour more than likely.

On this point Matthew you are incorrect 100%. The device IS ONLY SOLAR POWERED. It doesn't/can't plug into anything. Yet, has a screen and transmitter and provides all the functionality discussed. I asked them how long it could go without any sunlight and the answer was "several months". In fact it is so power-efficient that the retail version (production model) can enable it to power itself from occasional bending (bending the device back and forth to charge it) or even from pushing the buttons during normal usage.

Power is not a problem with these.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Matthew N. Wright on June 11, 2012, 05:11:26 PM
Alot of the technical aspects we all had to sign a non-confidentiality however Erik (who is a MUCH better writer than I am has been preparing a blog post)

Is that the opposite of a non-disclosure agreement?


LOL yes Matt you got Charlie there ;)  It was indeed a non-disclosure agreement that we signed. We are basically allowed to talk about functionality, appearance, pricing etc, but not about some of the technical specs of the internal components (many of which were developed in house by their team). Since I can't understand tech specs anyway (beyond my expertise) I wouldn't be able to divulge that info regardless :)

Does that NDA cover explaining how anything works? If you say that it can fly but someone asks "how", is that something under the NDA? The video on Vimeo that they "drifted" into the public is heavily cropped and does not give a clear indication of any actual activity. So the first question is this:

1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: evoorhees on June 11, 2012, 05:16:33 PM

1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


Yes I saw it do this with my own eyes. Though the screen on these prototypes is not backlit so if you were in darkness you couldn't see the screen.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Matthew N. Wright on June 11, 2012, 05:20:20 PM

1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


Yes I saw it do this with my own eyes. Though the screen on these prototypes is not backlit so if you were in darkness you couldn't see the screen.

2) How many transmissions can you make before the battery runs out and does it require a full recharging if you actually use it all day?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Yankee (BitInstant) on June 11, 2012, 05:21:34 PM
Charlie, could you give us some tx IDs of some of your test transactions with them?

Ah! I'm an idiot for not getting that! I'm meeting them later for dinner so will get a few of the tx's.

There's a pic on my blog of us testing: http://blog.bitinstant.com/blog/2012/6/8/bitcoincard-in-vienna-day-1-coffee-missing-atms-and-some-tes.html

With that much money behind it I assume it's not meant for Bitcoin use exclusively, or?

Interesting thought. So, they've been developing this for about 5 years, before Bitcoin was around.

The purpose of the card, was for an anonymous messaging system that worked on a mesh network.

For the past 2 years, they've redone their whole plan to exclusively do this for Bitcoin. The device still does messaging.

Intersagno, Bitstamp, Bitcoin Austria, Gavin, Erik, Roger, myself and many others have been tinkering and discussing with these guys the past 3 days.

They want to rely heavily on your and our input on this, and we're planning a test rollout by Q1 2013 of a few thousand pieces.

Alot of the technical aspects we all had to sign a non-confidentiality however Erik (who is a MUCH better writer than I am has been preparing a blog post)

Is that the opposite of a non-disclosure agreement?


LOL yes Matt you got Charlie there ;)  It was indeed a non-disclosure agreement that we signed. We are basically allowed to talk about functionality, appearance, pricing etc, but not about some of the technical specs of the internal components (many of which were developed in house by their team). Since I can't understand tech specs anyway (beyond my expertise) I wouldn't be able to divulge that info regardless :)

Does that NDA cover explaining how anything works? If you say that it can fly but someone asks "how", is that something under the NDA? The video on Vimeo that they "drifted" into the public is heavily cropped and does not give a clear indication of any actual activity. So the first question is this:

1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


The NDA covers explaining the hardware and software technicalities. The device can run 1 month on 1 full solar charge.

1) YES. As I've states above, I'll get the TX ID's when I go back to the office. I think Amir and Nejc are still there though.


1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


Yes I saw it do this with my own eyes. Though the screen on these prototypes is not backlit so if you were in darkness you couldn't see the screen.

2) How many transmissions can you make before the battery runs out and does it require a full recharging if you actually use it all day?


The device has a 100-200 meter range outdoors and 50-100 indoors. Two devices can speak to each other, and once any device is comes in 200 meter range of a dongle that's connected to the internet (a standalone USB key that can be inserted into any computer) it automatically confirms the transaction and inserts it into the blockchain.

-Charlie


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Matthew N. Wright on June 11, 2012, 05:25:15 PM
They want to rely heavily on your and our input on this, and we're planning a test rollout by Q1 2013 of a few thousand pieces.

You say "we". Are you affiliated in any way through investment, equity ownership, sales, distribution, marketing, development or any aspect of business with the Bitcoincard and/or their developers?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: cypherdoc on June 11, 2012, 05:27:23 PM
Is not the Bitcoin card perfect for countries like Africa...

Oh and one critique. The looks dont work for it. It looks a bit too much like a toy with all those colors.  
I know what I´m talking about. Colors are good for useability. But look at the mobilephones.
People can use them anyway. There is no need for all those colors.
 
Dont underestimate the bad impact of boring design and the good impact of good looking design, it is the most common developer misstake. I have worked with some of the worlds top coders and they just dont understand the impact of design.
They make the misstake of thinking, I dont care so I really dont think anyone else cares. But its quite the opposite.
They are in a tiny minority.

People judge things by their appearance.  If it looks good, it must be good and it gives the owner status.
If it looks ugly, you dont want to flash it around.

Make one in Black and gold. People low to flash their gold VISA cards.





 



i agree with this.  i don't like all the colors.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: cypherdoc on June 11, 2012, 05:31:54 PM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright link=topic=85832.msg955389#msg955389
1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


have you done this with the Ellet?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Matthew N. Wright on June 11, 2012, 05:32:50 PM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright link=topic=85832.msg955389#msg955389
1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


have you done this with the Ellet?

Yes of course. Why are you talking about the Ellet in this thread? There is a thread for discussions about the Ellet already,.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: rjk on June 11, 2012, 05:34:52 PM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright link=topic=85832.msg955389#msg955389
1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


have you done this with the Ellet?

Yes of course. Why are you talking about the Ellet in this thread? There is a thread for discussions about the Ellet already,.
Because you are discussing the bitcoincard in the Ellet thread?

Seriously Matt, you sound scared shitless. If you don't want to come across that way, I suggest you keep silent.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Matthew N. Wright on June 11, 2012, 05:36:52 PM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright link=topic=85832.msg955389#msg955389
1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


have you done this with the Ellet?

Yes of course. Why are you talking about the Ellet in this thread? There is a thread for discussions about the Ellet already,.
Because you are discussing the bitcoincard in the Ellet thread?

Seriously Matt, you sound scared shitless. If you don't want to come across that way, I suggest you keep silent.

Please stop posting off-topic.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: rjk on June 11, 2012, 05:37:17 PM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright link=topic=85832.msg955389#msg955389
1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


have you done this with the Ellet?

Yes of course. Why are you talking about the Ellet in this thread? There is a thread for discussions about the Ellet already,.
Because you are discussing the bitcoincard in the Ellet thread?

Seriously Matt, you sound scared shitless. If you don't want to come across that way, I suggest you keep silent.

Please stop posting off-topic.
NO U


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: punningclan on June 11, 2012, 05:39:05 PM
It would be a nice surprise to see bitcoincard in the next issue of Bitcoin Magazine  :o
Fat chance, apparently MNW is developing a competitor to it that he doesn't want anyone to know about, so he probably wouldn't allow such an article to be included.

My role at Bitcoin Magazine isn't to exclude legitimate stories of innovation in Bitcoin. It's to include legitimate news. When bitcoincard is proven to be more than just an over-hyped self-contradicting pipe dream website, I would be more than happy to write an entire piece on it for the print issue. The same goes for MintChip (which will probably end up as a colossal  failure but I hope -that- succeeds as well as it serves a purpose).

If the Ellet ever gets an article, it'll be because it's been proven, not because I have some kind of special interest in it. Your horridly inaccurate underestimation of our journalistic integrity is quite sickening. I want the same thing you want-- less bullshit and vaporware and more movement. Yet instead of bothering to build something or participate in a movement, you prefer to poke fun at me and all my personal advances in the Bitcoin economy. Classy.

Open your eyes to the facts: why don't these bitcoincard guys stick to what they say instead of completely contradicting themselves in their uberhype videos? "Doesn't rely on infrastructure"? What do you call requiring everyone in the world to hold a gateway repeater to the benefit of their neighbors? What do you call a USB dongle? Give me a break. I hope this is all clarified in this trip (that's why they're going afterall), but I'm not holding my breath because we've already found the solution and don't need to wait on anyone else.

As a community, we're all waiting to see what Erik and Charlie gather on their trip to Vienna, but I can't say I personally have much faith in any of this being more than fishing for investors for a product that markets itself as a privacy invasive DOA piece of hardware that requires a major rebuilding of a communications infrastructure just so you can be force fed ads.



Since it's using Bitcoin they probably have the whole privacy thing sown up without much problem, they'll be able to design it to track everything except your identity. I admit that to say they need no infrastructure is a bit hyperbolic (although true with just p2p) however if they work with normal wifi and if they are cheap or free I'm sure they'll catch on quickly and spread like wildfire!


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: cypherdoc on June 11, 2012, 05:43:30 PM
Quote from: Matthew N. Wright link=topic=85832.msg955389#msg955389
1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


have you done this with the Ellet?

Yes of course. Why are you talking about the Ellet in this thread? There is a thread for discussions about the Ellet already,.
Because you are discussing the bitcoincard in the Ellet thread?

Seriously Matt, you sound scared shitless. If you don't want to come across that way, I suggest you keep silent.

Please stop posting off-topic.
NO U

the free market can be brutal.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Yankee (BitInstant) on June 11, 2012, 05:46:20 PM
They want to rely heavily on your and our input on this, and we're planning a test rollout by Q1 2013 of a few thousand pieces.

You say "we". Are you affiliated in any way through investment, equity ownership, sales, distribution, marketing, development or any aspect of business with the Bitcoincard and/or their developers?


Not at the moment, no.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: evoorhees on June 11, 2012, 05:47:34 PM

1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


Yes I saw it do this with my own eyes. Though the screen on these prototypes is not backlit so if you were in darkness you couldn't see the screen.

2) How many transmissions can you make before the battery runs out and does it require a full recharging if you actually use it all day?


Probably thousands of transmissions, and you never "recharge" it. It maintains power through normal use. As mentioned, it cannot be plugged into anything. There are physically no ports on the device. None of this makes sense until you realize the device uses almost zero electricity to operate. Think of a digital watch which runs for many months on a tiny battery, with technology that is many years old.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: REF on June 11, 2012, 05:49:36 PM
Can someone clear up these scenarios for me?

If a vendor/store had a USB gateway wouldnt that be enough to process POS transactions?

If there is no mesh and you send coins to your friends across town would he receive the coins if you were both next to a USB gateway?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: cypherdoc on June 11, 2012, 05:49:45 PM

1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


Yes I saw it do this with my own eyes. Though the screen on these prototypes is not backlit so if you were in darkness you couldn't see the screen.

2) How many transmissions can you make before the battery runs out and does it require a full recharging if you actually use it all day?


Probably thousands of transmissions, and you never "recharge" it. It maintains power through normal use. As mentioned, it cannot be plugged into anything. There are physically no ports on the device. None of this makes sense until you realize the device uses almost zero electricity to operate. Think of a digital watch which runs for many months on a tiny battery, with technology that is many years old.

this doesn't make sense to me.  how can it "maintain power thru normal use"?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: rjk on June 11, 2012, 05:54:30 PM
this doesn't make sense to me.  how can it "maintain power thru normal use"?
I've heard of low power technologies that generate a small amount of energy when flexed, does it use something like this?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: wareen on June 11, 2012, 05:59:06 PM
this doesn't make sense to me.  how can it "maintain power thru normal use"?
Normal use: you take it out and make transactions, the solar panel catches some light and uses it to maintain the power level of the card.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: cypherdoc on June 11, 2012, 06:00:47 PM
this doesn't make sense to me.  how can it "maintain power thru normal use"?
Normal use: you take it out and make transactions, the solar panel catches some light and uses it to maintain the power level of the card.

does it have to be sunlight or will fluorescent or ambient light charge it?

flexing sounds like it has the potential to damage the card as well.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Yankee (BitInstant) on June 11, 2012, 06:04:50 PM
Can someone clear up these scenarios for me?

If a vendor/store had a USB gateway wouldnt that be enough to process POS transactions?

If there is no mesh and you send coins to your friends across town would he receive the coins if you were both next to a USB gateway?

Yes, thats all a merchant/vendor needs is a POS gateway to make it work.

Cards can talk to each other without a POS, and POS can talk to cards as well. They all talk to each other!

The POS would act as a 'mess teleporter' so your scenario is exactly right.

this doesn't make sense to me.  how can it "maintain power thru normal use"?
I've heard of low power technologies that generate a small amount of energy when flexed, does it use something like this?

Like I said earlier, one full solar charge is enough for 1 month of daily use.

It has the same power usage as my Citibank OTP device which I only replace the battery once a year but can generate 3-4 OTP's a day.

this doesn't make sense to me.  how can it "maintain power thru normal use"?
Normal use: you take it out and make transactions, the solar panel catches some light and uses it to maintain the power level of the card.

does it have to be sunlight or will fluorescent or ambient light charge it?

flexing sounds like it has the potential to damage the card as well.

I'm not sure about this, will ask.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: rjk on June 11, 2012, 06:10:40 PM
this doesn't make sense to me.  how can it "maintain power thru normal use"?
I've heard of low power technologies that generate a small amount of energy when flexed, does it use something like this?

Like I said earlier, one full solar charge is enough for 1 month of daily use.

It has the same power usage as my Citibank OTP device which I only replace the battery once a year but can generate 3-4 OTP's a day.
The reason I mentioned that was because of this:

Anyone in the electronics industry can tell you that the e-ink screen, radio transmitter/receiver and other functions of the device cannot be run by such a small solar panel, in fact, it would need a battery the size of the whole card just to run an hour more than likely.

On this point Matthew you are incorrect 100%. The device IS ONLY SOLAR POWERED. It doesn't/can't plug into anything. Yet, has a screen and transmitter and provides all the functionality discussed. I asked them how long it could go without any sunlight and the answer was "several months". In fact it is so power-efficient that the retail version (production model) can enable it to power itself from occasional bending (bending the device back and forth to charge it) or even from pushing the buttons during normal usage.

Power is not a problem with these.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: minorman on June 11, 2012, 06:14:17 PM
I want one!  ;D

One question: Why does the charge-life depend on how many times it is used/day? If it is constantly relaying transactions in a meshnet I don't see how the thing will hold charge for a month if it is acting to relay information in a meshnet?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Yankee (BitInstant) on June 11, 2012, 06:23:57 PM
this doesn't make sense to me.  how can it "maintain power thru normal use"?
I've heard of low power technologies that generate a small amount of energy when flexed, does it use something like this?

Like I said earlier, one full solar charge is enough for 1 month of daily use.

It has the same power usage as my Citibank OTP device which I only replace the battery once a year but can generate 3-4 OTP's a day.
The reason I mentioned that was because of this:

Anyone in the electronics industry can tell you that the e-ink screen, radio transmitter/receiver and other functions of the device cannot be run by such a small solar panel, in fact, it would need a battery the size of the whole card just to run an hour more than likely.

On this point Matthew you are incorrect 100%. The device IS ONLY SOLAR POWERED. It doesn't/can't plug into anything. Yet, has a screen and transmitter and provides all the functionality discussed. I asked them how long it could go without any sunlight and the answer was "several months". In fact it is so power-efficient that the retail version (production model) can enable it to power itself from occasional bending (bending the device back and forth to charge it) or even from pushing the buttons during normal usage.

Power is not a problem with these.

The power-bending model we have not seen, it's something they spoke about possibly doing in the future.

I think Erik may have misheard on this one (Unless I did, because Im unsure as well)

The fact as I understand it is, the device has a battery that is always charging in sun light. However, it can run for 1 full month on 1 full charge.

I want one!  ;D

One question: Why does the charge-life depend on how many times it is used/day? If it is constantly relaying transactions in a meshnet I don't see how the thing will hold charge for a month if it is acting to relay information in a meshnet?

I don't think thats how it works.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Xenland on June 11, 2012, 06:29:44 PM
Forgive me if this was answered but: How do i take my private keys off your device(or put them on?) when I'm done with it? or do I get provided with a select amount of Addresses that I have to be forced to send Bitcoins to my own "privately" owned address?

I ask because if i can't remove or add my private keys I can't trust the device with my Bitcoins.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Gavin Andresen on June 11, 2012, 06:39:03 PM
I bet Gavin got one or two of the prototypes and is digging into it as we speak. I hope we get a status report soon.
No, I don't have a prototype.

The hardware is real and very cool, but they've got a lot of work to do on software and user interface and manufacturing process and marketing and distribution and.... .  Expect the design to change before you can actually buy one. And like all really innovative projects (and to quote the MythBusters) "Failure is always an option."

Answering detailed questions about exactly how it works right now would be a waste of time, because I think before it ships most of the answers will be different. The meeting in Vienna was for bitcoincard to get early feedback on whether or not they're headed in a good direction.

RE: why would you want a bitcoincard versus just using your cellphone:  I personally think you'll want both; I'm trying to convince them that the bitcoincard could be a perfect "second device" for multisignature transactions. Cell phone viruses and trojans and malware will be the next big wave of security vulnerabilities.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: proudhon on June 11, 2012, 06:40:01 PM
this doesn't make sense to me.  how can it "maintain power thru normal use"?
I've heard of low power technologies that generate a small amount of energy when flexed, does it use something like this?

Like I said earlier, one full solar charge is enough for 1 month of daily use.

It has the same power usage as my Citibank OTP device which I only replace the battery once a year but can generate 3-4 OTP's a day.
The reason I mentioned that was because of this:

Anyone in the electronics industry can tell you that the e-ink screen, radio transmitter/receiver and other functions of the device cannot be run by such a small solar panel, in fact, it would need a battery the size of the whole card just to run an hour more than likely.

On this point Matthew you are incorrect 100%. The device IS ONLY SOLAR POWERED. It doesn't/can't plug into anything. Yet, has a screen and transmitter and provides all the functionality discussed. I asked them how long it could go without any sunlight and the answer was "several months". In fact it is so power-efficient that the retail version (production model) can enable it to power itself from occasional bending (bending the device back and forth to charge it) or even from pushing the buttons during normal usage.

Power is not a problem with these.

The power-bending model we have not seen, it's something they spoke about possibly doing in the future.

I think Erik may have misheard on this one (Unless I did, because Im unsure as well)

The fact as I understand it is, the device has a battery that is always charging in sun light. However, it can run for 1 full month on 1 full charge.

I want one!  ;D

One question: Why does the charge-life depend on how many times it is used/day? If it is constantly relaying transactions in a meshnet I don't see how the thing will hold charge for a month if it is acting to relay information in a meshnet?

I don't think thats how it works.

I'm sure I've read of technologies in development and possibly in production which produce energy from some physical force on an object (e.g. bending, rubbing, pressing, etc.)  I'll try and dig up some of the articles.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Raoul Duke on June 11, 2012, 06:41:10 PM

RE: why would you want a bitcoincard versus just using your cellphone:  I personally think you'll want both; I'm trying to convince them that the bitcoincard could be a perfect "second device" for multisignature transactions. Cell phone viruses and trojans and malware will be the next big wave of security vulnerabilities.


Now, this would make me buy one.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Nejc Kodric (BitStamp.net) on June 11, 2012, 06:43:20 PM
I loved the bitcoin card, it fits perfectly to my wallet ;)

Best regards,
Nejc Kodrič
www.Bitstamp.net


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: proudhon on June 11, 2012, 06:43:57 PM

RE: why would you want a bitcoincard versus just using your cellphone:  I personally think you'll want both; I'm trying to convince them that the bitcoincard could be a perfect "second device" for multisignature transactions. Cell phone viruses and trojans and malware will be the next big wave of security vulnerabilities.


Now, this would make me buy one.

Yes, I'd be all over that.  Something small enough to keep in my wallet, so that it's typically on my person that I can use for multisig with my phone or, say, an untrusted computer or something.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Elwar on June 11, 2012, 07:03:39 PM
I can tell you that ALL of your problems have been thought about and addressed.

Can it take a bullet?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: punningclan on June 11, 2012, 07:10:59 PM
From the site it sounds like giving them away free to your friends or handing them out as incentives instead of calculators, pens, and paper weights is going to be a big possibility and certainly much easier for folks not willing or able to delve into the intricacies of installing the client. Most importantly they are promoting these cards to businesses so the combination of complete anonymity and perfect customer tracking just has to be a panacea for them. Additionally with the wireless mesh, swiper, no more swiping!    


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: interlagos on June 11, 2012, 07:12:28 PM
RE: why would you want a bitcoincard versus just using your cellphone:  I personally think you'll want both; I'm trying to convince them that the bitcoincard could be a perfect "second device" for multisignature transactions. Cell phone viruses and trojans and malware will be the next big wave of security vulnerabilities.
Now, this would make me buy one.
Yes, I'd be all over that.  Something small enough to keep in my wallet, so that it's typically on my person that I can use for multisig with my phone or, say, an untrusted computer or something.
I don't think it would be simple to implement.
As I understood the radio technology used in the card is different from wireless technologies used in phones so they won't be able to communicate.

Also the card can only store two Bitcoin addresses and two private keys at the moment.
So either it would need to share one of those for multisig or drop this functionality all together.

Edit: it seems that I confused the limit of two inputs and two outputs per transaction with the limit on private keys. More info is here: http://bitcoincard.org/product.php


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: cbeast on June 11, 2012, 07:34:08 PM
It sounds like it uses Texas Instruments ULP.  :D


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: World on June 11, 2012, 07:46:38 PM
In the future will everything be open source exclusive for bitcoin network?
Will have customers and merchants the ability to customize a design?
Can the USB dongle work on all cross-platform ?
thx


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: EhVedadoOAnonimato on June 11, 2012, 08:02:43 PM
There is alot of money behind this project, in the double digit millions.

 :o

It's quite amazing that they've decided, as a first use case for they're product, to make it a bitcoin transmitting device.
Rich entrepreneurs are starting to see the potential of bitcoin.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: cypherdoc on June 11, 2012, 08:03:39 PM
There is alot of money behind this project, in the double digit millions.

 :o

It's quite amazing that they've decided, as a first use case for they're product, to make it a bitcoin transmitting device.
Rich entrepreneurs are starting to see the potential of bitcoin.

Charlie, i hope you're not exaggerating this.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: hazek on June 11, 2012, 08:05:00 PM
From what I've heard I believe he isn't, but I don't know if I can say more.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: EhVedadoOAnonimato on June 11, 2012, 08:06:07 PM
In the future will everything be open source exclusive for bitcoin network?
Can the USB dongle work on all cross-platform ?

If they're asking for NDAs, I don't believe it's going to be open source. But it would be interesting, for them and for their customers, if they make at least the protocol open, so that different implementations can talk with it.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Jan on June 11, 2012, 09:36:44 PM
All in all this sounds pretty amazing!
Alex Squared, as Charlie calls them, should join our forum so we can pick their brains directly  ;D


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: cbeast on June 11, 2012, 09:46:22 PM
I've been emailing with with Mr. Ioscko. I don't think you're going to get much from them, but I have a feeling they will have some big things planned soon.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: 2112 on June 11, 2012, 09:56:43 PM
The device can run 1 month on 1 full solar charge.
The device has a 100-200 meter range outdoors and 50-100 indoors.
Oh, the warm smell of the claims of extrardinary radio performance. It is almost as seductive as the warm smell of colitas.

For the people interested in other claims of extraordiary radio performance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_minimum-shift_keying
http://www.vmsk.org/
http://www.ka9q.net/vmsk/

Too bad all the good links about Pixelon are gone from the Internet.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: cbeast on June 11, 2012, 10:00:28 PM
The device can run 1 month on 1 full solar charge.
The device has a 100-200 meter range outdoors and 50-100 indoors.
Oh, the warm smell of the claims of extrardinary radio performance. It is almost as seductive as the warm smell of colitas.

For the people interested in other claims of extraordiary radio performance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_minimum-shift_keying
http://www.vmsk.org/
http://www.ka9q.net/vmsk/

Too bad all the good links about Pixelon are gone from the Internet.
The protocol is very noise resistant and very low bandwidth.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Bitcoin Oz on June 11, 2012, 11:33:49 PM
If I can use it to txt my kids at school and send them lunch money at the same time that would be awesome  :D


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: sethsethseth on June 11, 2012, 11:37:22 PM
The website doesn't say much about the business model.  Who do they want to market this to, and how will it be marketed?  The features of this product are fantastic.  I am just having trouble figuring out which groups of people benefit the most from it.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Bitcoin Oz on June 11, 2012, 11:49:55 PM
The website doesn't say much about the business model.  Who do they want to market this to, and how will it be marketed?  The features of this product are fantastic.  I am just having trouble figuring out which groups of people benefit the most from it.

What could go wrong with a crazy russian oligarch funding a bitcoin device ?



Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Bitcoin Oz on June 11, 2012, 11:53:17 PM
Hopefully the Ellet and the bitcoincard can communicate...now that would be an interesting market dynamic...


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: apetersson on June 12, 2012, 12:04:45 AM
What could go wrong with a crazy russian oligarch funding a bitcoin device ?
The way I understand it, is he is really fed up with Banks and Central Banks behaving badly. He is realizing Fiat currencies purchasing power is going to 0. He wants to spur Bitcoin adoption by bringing Bitcoin to retail. Plus he had this great hardware device developed for a long time which fits the Bitcoin usecase very well.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Bitcoin Oz on June 12, 2012, 12:09:54 AM
What could go wrong with a crazy russian oligarch funding a bitcoin device ?
The way I understand it, is he is really fed up with Banks and Central Banks behaving badly. He is realizing Fiat currencies purchasing power is going to 0. He wants to spur Bitcoin adoption by bringing Bitcoin to retail. Plus he had this great hardware device developed for a long time which fits the Bitcoin usecase very well.

The bitcoincard and the ellet is like watching the space race all over again  :D


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: LightRider on June 12, 2012, 01:38:17 AM
What could go wrong with a crazy russian oligarch funding a bitcoin device ?
The way I understand it, is he is really fed up with Banks and Central Banks behaving badly. He is realizing Fiat currencies purchasing power is going to 0. He wants to spur Bitcoin adoption by bringing Bitcoin to retail. Plus he had this great hardware device developed for a long time which fits the Bitcoin usecase very well.

The bitcoincard and the ellet is like watching the space race all over again  :D

I think exploring meatspace this soon is kind of jumping the gun. Bitcoin is a digital currency, and wants to live in the digital world. I don't think we have a digital ecosystem robust enough to support it in real world transactions just yet. I'm glad that the work is at least being started, but there is still a lot of work to be done on the protocol, the clients, security and usecase exploration.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: MoonShadow on June 12, 2012, 02:24:43 AM
If I can use it to txt my kids at school and send them lunch money at the same time that would be awesome  :D

Amen, brother.  I had decided long ago that a meshable device for texting is worth much just for that.  Give them to my daughter and her friends, and let them go at it.  100meters is kinda poor for the purpose, though.  Definately not a Dash7 device.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: sethsethseth on June 12, 2012, 02:40:40 AM
The website doesn't say much about the business model.  Who do they want to market this to, and how will it be marketed?  The features of this product are fantastic.  I am just having trouble figuring out which groups of people benefit the most from it.

What could go wrong with a crazy russian oligarch funding a bitcoin device ?



Is Alex² really Russian, or is that entirely a joke?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: cbeast on June 12, 2012, 02:58:29 AM
What could go wrong with a crazy russian oligarch funding a bitcoin device ?
The way I understand it, is he is really fed up with Banks and Central Banks behaving badly. He is realizing Fiat currencies purchasing power is going to 0. He wants to spur Bitcoin adoption by bringing Bitcoin to retail. Plus he had this great hardware device developed for a long time which fits the Bitcoin usecase very well.

The bitcoincard and the ellet is like watching the space race all over again  :D

I think exploring meatspace this soon is kind of jumping the gun. Bitcoin is a digital currency, and wants to live in the digital world. I don't think we have a digital ecosystem robust enough to support it in real world transactions just yet. I'm glad that the work is at least being started, but there is still a lot of work to be done on the protocol, the clients, security and usecase exploration.
I agree, we still haven't really developed smartphone apps enough to really show what Bitcoin can do. Web and smartphone apps should be the main priority for awhile. Bitcoincard is awesome, but maybe too soon to bring to market.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: MoonShadow on June 12, 2012, 03:06:01 AM
What could go wrong with a crazy russian oligarch funding a bitcoin device ?
The way I understand it, is he is really fed up with Banks and Central Banks behaving badly. He is realizing Fiat currencies purchasing power is going to 0. He wants to spur Bitcoin adoption by bringing Bitcoin to retail. Plus he had this great hardware device developed for a long time which fits the Bitcoin usecase very well.

The bitcoincard and the ellet is like watching the space race all over again  :D

I think exploring meatspace this soon is kind of jumping the gun. Bitcoin is a digital currency, and wants to live in the digital world. I don't think we have a digital ecosystem robust enough to support it in real world transactions just yet. I'm glad that the work is at least being started, but there is still a lot of work to be done on the protocol, the clients, security and usecase exploration.
I agree, we still haven't really developed smartphone apps enough to really show what Bitcoin can do. Web and smartphone apps should be the main priority for awhile. Bitcoincard is awesome, but maybe too soon to bring to market.

Those can be your priorities.  Let others focus on their priorities.  I have a lot of personal reasons to want a secure offline bitcoin device, and I have a lot of personal reasons to want a meshable & service free practial means of near-space texting.  Again, 100 meters isn't enough, but imagine if I had a dozen of these devices & gave each of them to people that I was traveling to a concert with.  Or a ball game.  Just the ability to send a text to my kids headed to the conessions stand "cancel the chips, I want a hot dog" or "cancel the entire order, halftime is over, get back" or using the location features, after one child telss me that his sister's purse was snatched, I could potentially track it up to a point.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: galambo on June 12, 2012, 03:19:19 AM
The device can run 1 month on 1 full solar charge.
The device has a 100-200 meter range outdoors and 50-100 indoors.
Oh, the warm smell of the claims of extrardinary radio performance. It is almost as seductive as the warm smell of colitas.

For the people interested in other claims of extraordiary radio performance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_minimum-shift_keying
http://www.vmsk.org/
http://www.ka9q.net/vmsk/

Too bad all the good links about Pixelon are gone from the Internet.

Perhaps its something like IEEE 802.15.4. And running 1 month with the radio/display/etc off. If you see pictures of the actual device its a lot simpler than presented in the video.

http://blog.bitinstant.com/storage/Photo%20Jun%2008%204%2046%2044%20PM.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1339201784462


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: REF on June 12, 2012, 03:44:22 AM
If I can use it to txt my kids at school and send them lunch money at the same time that would be awesome  :D

Amen, brother.  I had decided long ago that a meshable device for texting is worth much just for that.  Give them to my daughter and her friends, and let them go at it.  100meters is kinda poor for the purpose, though.  Definately not a Dash7 device.
I wonder how good they weather. I work a mile from where I live I wonder if I could tap them to trees to reach from my office to my house. Making a mesh around my house would be great & cool to experiment with.

I could see kids in schools using the texting feature 6-10 kids would be enough to create a mesh in the entire building.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: MoonShadow on June 12, 2012, 04:08:12 AM

I could see kids in schools using the texting feature 6-10 kids would be enough to create a mesh in the entire building.

Not unless it's a small school, and the kids are evenly spaced and don't move.  Something closer to 30 would be required to maintain a mesh network for any school that I've attended, with a radio radius of 100 meters.  Wifi can get 100 meters in open air space, but 2.45 Ghz is a crappy frequency choice for a mesh.  Without changing the protocol or peak-power, just switching to 433 Mhz would double the effective range due to the lower background noise level & reduced sensitivity to attenuation by hydrogen containing mass.  Wifi doesn't use 433mhz mostly because the band is too narrow for such wideband tech.

I wish, at least, I knew what frequency this device used.  That would tell me much about how well I could extend ranges.  A single dongle may only have a radius of 100 meters, but three of them using 120 degree wide panel antennas on a pole can cover 2-3 times that radius under ideal conditions.  2.45 Ghz would not be an ideal condition, however. 


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: MoonShadow on June 12, 2012, 04:11:55 AM
I wonder how good they weather. I work a mile from where I live I wonder if I could tap them to trees to reach from my office to my house. Making a mesh around my house would be great & cool to experiment with.

Considering that they use only a solar cell for power, just put one into a ziplock bag and tape it down to the top of objects that pedestrians cannot see above.  Like the roof of a bus shelter, or the top of a vending machine.  If they are cheap enough, it doesn't much matter if someone eventually finds them.  By the time your's go bad or are stolen, either the mesh network would be self-sustaining or it likely will never be.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Bitcoin Oz on June 12, 2012, 04:16:05 AM
I wonder how good they weather. I work a mile from where I live I wonder if I could tap them to trees to reach from my office to my house. Making a mesh around my house would be great & cool to experiment with.

Considering that they use only a solar cell for power, just put one into a ziplock bag and tape it down to the top of objects that pedestrians cannot see above.  Like the roof of a bus shelter, or the top of a vending machine.  If they are cheap enough, it doesn't much matter if someone eventually finds them.  By the time your's go bad or are stolen, either the mesh network would be self-sustaining or it likely will never be.

That is what I would do. Leave a trail of them on the way to school so that the message gets relayed.

If they are cheap enough I would leave them all over town....


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: rjk on June 12, 2012, 04:32:25 AM
On a bus, nice. This takes RFC 1149 to a whole new level. ;D


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: MoonShadow on June 12, 2012, 04:47:13 AM
On a bus, nice. This takes RFC 1149 to a whole new level. ;D

Heh.

Dash7 would still be a better wireless protocol, even on a bus or a bird.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: teflone on June 12, 2012, 05:12:55 AM
Will the bus still explode if it drops under 50 mph and is not in range of a gateway ?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Bitcoin Oz on June 12, 2012, 05:50:08 AM
Will the bus still explode if it drops under 50 mph and is not in range of a gateway ?

Only if Keeanu Reeves is driving it.

http://www.lazypalace.com/img/fun/keanu-reeves-photoshopped/keanu-reeves-photoshopped33.jpg

Pic Related  :D


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: genjix on June 12, 2012, 07:17:24 AM
This is the guy making it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6974216.stm

Also: I saw bitcoincard, and the device is legit. It has only minor kinks that are easy to work out.

I'll avoid posting more as they're quite sensitive to exposing their secrets right now, but the device is really cool. I'm hopeful for it.

First off:
- It's tiny. Credit card sized and < 1 mm thick
- Low cost (cheap device)
- Low power (runs off solar)
- Theoretically it should be secure, but I need to know more of their setup first to be sure their implementation is secure. I'm guessing there may be a couple of vectors they haven't thought of yet, but with proper help they should resolve this.

For merchants, it's trivial and safe to allow Bitcoin payments from these. They also look pretty nifty.

I can imagine one day, Intersango giving away a basket of these for free branded with our logo (or something). They are really cheap and simple devices.

I'm not questioning the tech tbh, but more whether people would prefer this over mobile phones (a social problem) despite improved security. Phones can do way more than this device so I'm not sure.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: proudhon on June 12, 2012, 02:36:05 PM
I'm not questioning the tech tbh, but more whether people would prefer this over mobile phones (a social problem) despite improved security. Phones can do way more than this device so I'm not sure.

My understanding is that the argument for this sort of device over a phone is that it has the potential to be independent of traditional communication infrastructure, which, assuming the P2P infrastructure it uses is secure, would eliminate at least that attack vector.  I love that idea, however, I think there are two related criticisms to be made.  (1) Network independence depends on widespread enough adoption and it's hard to believe that level of adoption is achievable even over the next few years.  (2) It seems that to overcome (1) they'll use hubs that are connected to the world's standard communication infrastructure, and, therefore, possibly invalidate the security benefit, at least initially.  Though, perhaps I'm misunderstanding how these hubs will work, and maybe they don't plug into the existing infrastructure but simply act as higher power signals for the P2P network.  Admittedly I haven't read all the documentation they've provided, so if I've got something wrong let me know.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Elwar on June 14, 2012, 05:34:45 PM
The video says that it can send text and pictures.

The screen does not appear to be set up for pictures of any significance, and...how would you get the picture?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: MoonShadow on June 14, 2012, 05:37:31 PM
The video says that it can send text and pictures.

The screen does not appear to be set up for pictures of any significance, and...how would you get the picture?

I think that the video was mostly a generic promo developed for the card before they settled on using as a bitcoin device.  I doubt, seriously, that it will ever be able to send actual images even though the mesh protocol might support sharing of arbitrary data objects.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: proudhon on June 14, 2012, 05:49:32 PM
The video says that it can send text and pictures.

The screen does not appear to be set up for pictures of any significance, and...how would you get the picture?

From the video it looked like the types of pictures you could send would be little low res images like you'd see on a TI-83, for example.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Elwar on June 14, 2012, 06:30:59 PM
The video says that it can send text and pictures.

The screen does not appear to be set up for pictures of any significance, and...how would you get the picture?

From the video it looked like the types of pictures you could send would be little low res images like you'd see on a TI-83, for example.


You mean like on my Casio when I would type 07734 then turn it upside down?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: World on June 14, 2012, 09:18:24 PM
When and where you place a pre-order one of that card? Thx


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: minimalB on June 14, 2012, 10:50:13 PM
Alot of the technical aspects we all had to sign a non-confidentiality however Erik (who is a MUCH better writer than I am has been preparing a blog post)

Is this blog post online somewhere?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Xenland on June 14, 2012, 10:52:23 PM
Any one hear of a disclosed price?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Yankee (BitInstant) on June 14, 2012, 10:54:46 PM
Alot of the technical aspects we all had to sign a non-confidentiality however Erik (who is a MUCH better writer than I am has been preparing a blog post)

Is this blog post online somewhere?

Working on it


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: molecular on June 16, 2012, 03:46:46 PM
It would be a nice surprise to see bitcoincard in the next issue of Bitcoin Magazine  :o
Fat chance, apparently MNW is developing a competitor to it that he doesn't want anyone to know about, so he probably wouldn't allow such an article to be included.

My role at Bitcoin Magazine isn't to exclude legitimate stories of innovation in Bitcoin. It's to include legitimate news.

yesyes, Matthew, very honorable, but: what about including a bitcoincard in the magazine?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: molecular on June 16, 2012, 04:09:52 PM
i agree with this.  i don't like all the colors.

I used to have similar taste. Then I went to south Korea...


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Mushroomized on June 16, 2012, 04:10:42 PM
This are very cool, and I am pretty excited. Do you think they would melt if I superglued tons upside down around the neighborhood on top of tall things? I live near hershey park, I could hide some there too on top of the large chocolate bar statues


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: molecular on June 16, 2012, 04:41:26 PM
It's been asked before but I'm not sure it's been answered: will I be able to put my own keys on it?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on June 16, 2012, 10:06:29 PM
Quote
I'm not questioning the tech tbh, but more whether people would prefer this over mobile phones (a social problem) despite improved security. Phones can do way more than this device so I'm not sure.

I think fungibility will come into it ... money transfer with a phone will not be very private and difficult for the average user to make it so (particularly with the aggressive, predatory data-miners like google listening in). From what I can see using money on these cards can easily be as good as cash, electronic cash.

Also seems like a 'hardware wallet' concept like this can be secure enough to extend to a "savings card" and a "spending card" .... wouldn't want to leave more than a hundred btc on a phone.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: bitlizard on June 16, 2012, 10:16:20 PM
when can I get my hands on on of these? how much are they gonna cost? (approx.)



Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: molecular on June 16, 2012, 10:20:22 PM
when can I get my hands on on of these? how much are they gonna cost? (approx.)



i'm hoping for: next year, nada (as in: free (of cost) for the consumer)

this could be big... kudos to these guys for what they've achieved already (which seems very impressive) and even more kudos if they manage to pull it through!


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: World on June 17, 2012, 01:38:31 AM
nice ,it looks like someone already used,can't wait to get one
52 gateways7,140 bitcoiners ("A")44,461 local reach ("B")
source http://bitcoincard.org/earth/ (http://bitcoincard.org/earth/)


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: MoonShadow on June 17, 2012, 02:02:40 AM
nice ,it looks like someone already used,can't wait to get one
52 gateways7,140 bitcoiners ("A")44,461 local reach ("B")
source http://bitcoincard.org/earth/ (http://bitcoincard.org/earth/)

I think that you misunderstood the intent of that particular webapp.  That isn't there to annouce who actually has a bitcoincard or gateway already, but who would be willing to do so and their estimate of how many potential bitcoincard users could pass that person's personal gateway each week.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: arepo on June 18, 2012, 07:09:17 PM
I'll be waiting with baited breath!

Sally, having swallowed cheese,
Directs down holes the scented breeze,
Enticing thus with baited breath
Nice mice to an untimely death.

I'm looking forward to the info!

+1,000,000


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: anu on June 19, 2012, 09:20:35 AM
Is not the Bitcoin card perfect for countries like Africa...

It may work nicely for other countries, such as Asia and Europe, too  ;D

Seriously, I had the same thought. If this card live up to it's promise, it should work in most parts of Africa with very little additional infrastructure.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: hashman on June 19, 2012, 12:04:48 PM
I'm not questioning the tech tbh, but more whether people would prefer this over mobile phones (a social problem) despite improved security. Phones can do way more than this device so I'm not sure.

My understanding is that the argument for this sort of device over a phone is that it has the potential to be independent of traditional communication infrastructure, which, assuming the P2P infrastructure it uses is secure, would eliminate at least that attack vector.  I love that idea, however, I think there are two related criticisms to be made.  (1) Network independence depends on widespread enough adoption and it's hard to believe that level of adoption is achievable even over the next few years.  (2) It seems that to overcome (1) they'll use hubs that are connected to the world's standard communication infrastructure, and, therefore, possibly invalidate the security benefit, at least initially.  Though, perhaps I'm misunderstanding how these hubs will work, and maybe they don't plug into the existing infrastructure but simply act as higher power signals for the P2P network.  Admittedly I haven't read all the documentation they've provided, so if I've got something wrong let me know.

hopefully we can run a virtual card on our phones / laptops to help the mesh grow


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: molecular on June 19, 2012, 01:56:51 PM
I'm not questioning the tech tbh, but more whether people would prefer this over mobile phones (a social problem) despite improved security. Phones can do way more than this device so I'm not sure.

My understanding is that the argument for this sort of device over a phone is that it has the potential to be independent of traditional communication infrastructure, which, assuming the P2P infrastructure it uses is secure, would eliminate at least that attack vector.  I love that idea, however, I think there are two related criticisms to be made.  (1) Network independence depends on widespread enough adoption and it's hard to believe that level of adoption is achievable even over the next few years.  (2) It seems that to overcome (1) they'll use hubs that are connected to the world's standard communication infrastructure, and, therefore, possibly invalidate the security benefit, at least initially.  Though, perhaps I'm misunderstanding how these hubs will work, and maybe they don't plug into the existing infrastructure but simply act as higher power signals for the P2P network.  Admittedly I haven't read all the documentation they've provided, so if I've got something wrong let me know.

hopefully we can run a virtual card on our phones / laptops to help the mesh grow

+1

also: a phone has many more attack vectors than a card like that, even if it'd use traditional network infrastructure. You don't just install loads of apps on it or use it to surf porn (although that'd be kind of classy with the e-ink display *goes make monochrome-small-display-optimized porn site*)


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: unclescrooge on June 20, 2012, 05:35:57 PM
I read the blog report of bitinstant guys: http://blog.bitinstant.com/blog/2012/6/19/our-discovery-in-vienna-the-bitcoin-card.html (http://blog.bitinstant.com/blog/2012/6/19/our-discovery-in-vienna-the-bitcoin-card.html)

This is truly something big. If it takes off (and considering the future of the economies worldwide I think it will, then it can literally change our societies.

I mean bitcoin could be use everywhere with a smart card and an usb dongle as payment processor! This will change everything!


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: molecular on June 20, 2012, 10:45:59 PM
Long gone the days when one could impress people with an American Express Gold Card.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: World on June 20, 2012, 11:58:54 PM
I mean bitcoin could be use everywhere with a smart card and an usb dongle as payment processor!
exactly and customers doesn't need a dongle  ;D like PayPal,Square,iZettle,Swiffpay,Intuit Payanywhere,Gopayment,Salesvu etc...


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: cbeast on June 21, 2012, 04:41:08 AM
I don't know how easy to use this will be. I hope you don't have to type out long addresses on that weird keyboard.

I remember when the Sprint card came out. I think I connected to every BBS in the country at 2400 baud. Even at the discount rate, I still racked up huge phone bills. Just the novelty of this card will cause people to spend money if it is convenient.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: anu on June 21, 2012, 06:50:08 AM
I don't know how easy to use this will be. I hope you don't have to type out long addresses on that weird keyboard.


I think we can trust them to come up with a reasonable solution for this, because that'd be a no go. Curious what it will be in the absence of a scanner / camera and NFC.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Matthew N. Wright on June 21, 2012, 06:56:19 AM
I don't know how easy to use this will be. I hope you don't have to type out long addresses on that weird keyboard.


I think we can trust them to come up with a reasonable solution for this, because that'd be a no go. Curious what it will be in the absence of a scanner / camera and NFC.

Bingo.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: molecular on June 21, 2012, 07:44:29 AM
I don't know how easy to use this will be. I hope you don't have to type out long addresses on that weird keyboard.


I think we can trust them to come up with a reasonable solution for this, because that'd be a no go. Curious what it will be in the absence of a scanner / camera and NFC.

Bingo.

quote from bitinstants blog-post (http://blog.bitinstant.com/blog/2012/6/19/our-discovery-in-vienna-the-bitcoin-card.html)

Quote from: bitinstant
In order to pay someone with the card, you press the “Pay” button and a small list of nearby devices appears. Each device has a unique alias/name. You scroll down to the device you wish to pay, select it, enter the amount to pay, and submit. Thus, you do not need to enter any ugly BTC addresses in daily use.

If you wish to pay out to a normal BTC address, you will be able to enter it on the card (but obviously this is tedious). It is likely that the solution will be a linked ewallet-type account paired to your device. If you wish to send to a normal BTC address, you’d use the ewallet via the web on a computer or mobile phone.



Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: anu on June 21, 2012, 08:01:01 AM

Quote from: bitinstant
In order to pay someone with the card, you press the “Pay” button and a small list of nearby devices appears. Each device has a unique alias/name. You scroll down to the device you wish to pay, select it, enter the amount to pay, and submit. Thus, you do not need to enter any ugly BTC addresses in daily use.

If you wish to pay out to a normal BTC address, you will be able to enter it on the card (but obviously this is tedious). It is likely that the solution will be a linked ewallet-type account paired to your device. If you wish to send to a normal BTC address, you’d use the ewallet via the web on a computer or mobile phone.

Ooops, missed that. Going back to school to learn how to read properly ...

Thanks for the slap.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: molecular on June 21, 2012, 08:22:34 AM
In the future will everything be open source exclusive for bitcoin network?
Can the USB dongle work on all cross-platform ?

If they're asking for NDAs, I don't believe it's going to be open source. But it would be interesting, for them and for their customers, if they make at least the protocol open, so that different implementations can talk with it.

I'm pretty sure it will be closed-down pretty tightly. They've invested heavily and want to make some money.

This doesn't need to be a showstopper, but I'd like to hear some specifics on their "openness policies".


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: anu on June 21, 2012, 08:45:53 AM
I'm pretty sure it will be closed-down pretty tightly. They've invested heavily and want to make some money.

This is a piece of infrastructure. Infrastructure must create opportunities to be successful. If it has the potential to do so, but is locked down so can't, the Bitcoincard will go the way of so many other cool technologies. Like BeOS.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Mageant on June 21, 2012, 09:03:29 AM
The bitcoincard needs to have a method to easily send bitcoin to someone who is not part of the bitcoincard-system, otherwise it will be hard for it to become successful IMHO.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: LightRider on June 21, 2012, 09:27:59 AM
I think one of the distinctions between this and the ellet is that the bitcoincard promotes a bitcoin community, while the ellet tries to engage and maintain the status quo. Obviously the ellet will likely be more successful as a device if it delivers on its promise, but bitcoincard would more than likely engender a more philosophically like minded market/ecosystem. In any case, I still doubt that meatspace is the right place for bitcoin right now, but it is always exciting to see these developments.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Matthew N. Wright on June 21, 2012, 09:39:40 AM
I think one of the distinctions between this and the ellet is that the bitcoincard promotes a bitcoin community, while the ellet tries to engage and maintain the status quo. Obviously the ellet will likely be more successful as a device if it delivers on its promise, but bitcoincard would more than likely engender a more philosophically like minded market/ecosystem. In any case, I still doubt that meatspace is the right place for bitcoin right now, but it is always exciting to see these developments.

I agree wholeheartedly in everything you said, although I think you have a very immature idea of what "statis quo" even means. By your definition I wonder if you think Bitcoin Magazine "tries to maintain the status quo" by making it more available to people in Barnes & Noble, which doesn't accept bitcoin.  ::)


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: LightRider on June 21, 2012, 09:48:31 AM
I think one of the distinctions between this and the ellet is that the bitcoincard promotes a bitcoin community, while the ellet tries to engage and maintain the status quo. Obviously the ellet will likely be more successful as a device if it delivers on its promise, but bitcoincard would more than likely engender a more philosophically like minded market/ecosystem. In any case, I still doubt that meatspace is the right place for bitcoin right now, but it is always exciting to see these developments.

I agree wholeheartedly in everything you said, although I think you have a very immature idea of what "statis quo" even means. By your definition I wonder if you think Bitcoin Magazine "tries to maintain the status quo" by making it more available to people in Barnes & Noble, which doesn't accept bitcoin.  ::)

Obviously, using old media, via traditional printing and distribution to large establishment chain stores is in a way maintaining the status quo. (Actually, ironically, I also find it quite anachronistic!) As an idealist, it is not something I agree with entirely, but realistically and practically I understand it and cannot really criticize it. The world will not change in an instant, and I do appreciate any change that in the long run helps to make society better for everyone. I am glad that you and the rest of the bitcoin community are engaging in this shift, and any criticism I levy is not against any one person or product, but the underlying assumptions of the way the world works right now. We are all victims of culture, and it is ultimately inescapable. Hopefully more people begin to understand that, and push the boundaries of what they think is possible.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Matthew N. Wright on June 21, 2012, 10:49:53 AM
I think one of the distinctions between this and the ellet is that the bitcoincard promotes a bitcoin community, while the ellet tries to engage and maintain the status quo. Obviously the ellet will likely be more successful as a device if it delivers on its promise, but bitcoincard would more than likely engender a more philosophically like minded market/ecosystem. In any case, I still doubt that meatspace is the right place for bitcoin right now, but it is always exciting to see these developments.

I agree wholeheartedly in everything you said, although I think you have a very immature idea of what "statis quo" even means. By your definition I wonder if you think Bitcoin Magazine "tries to maintain the status quo" by making it more available to people in Barnes & Noble, which doesn't accept bitcoin.  ::)

Obviously, using old media, via traditional printing and distribution to large establishment chain stores is in a way maintaining the status quo. (Actually, ironically, I also find it quite anachronistic!) As an idealist, it is not something I agree with entirely, but realistically and practically I understand it and cannot really criticize it. The world will not change in an instant, and I do appreciate any change that in the long run helps to make society better for everyone. I am glad that you and the rest of the bitcoin community are engaging in this shift, and any criticism I levy is not against any one person or product, but the underlying assumptions of the way the world works right now. We are all victims of culture, and it is ultimately inescapable. Hopefully more people begin to understand that, and push the boundaries of what they think is possible.

Well spoken!


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: molecular on June 21, 2012, 08:11:03 PM
I'm pretty sure it will be closed-down pretty tightly. They've invested heavily and want to make some money.

This is a piece of infrastructure. Infrastructure must create opportunities to be successful. If it has the potential to do so, but is locked down so can't, the Bitcoincard will go the way of so many other cool technologies. Like BeOS.

Then why is OpenBeOS (aka haiku) not taking off?

Maybe it's time to put my BeBox on bitmit?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: anu on June 22, 2012, 07:58:37 AM
Then why is OpenBeOS (aka haiku) not taking off?

Maybe it's time to put my BeBox on bitmit?

I didn't even know it exists until a minute ago. Thanks for pointing me. But it doesn't look ready yet. Not being ready seems a pretty good reason for not taking off, even if its open, don't you think?

Lastly, i didn't say it must be all OpenSource. It must only allow independent vendors to extend it and build upon. Be violated that. The only vendors who AFAIK got away with closing their stuff extremely tight are IBM with their mainframes and Apple with their iPhone. But these are huge companies with almost infinite cash reserves. And even IBM was almost killed by that attitude during the PC revolution.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: Jan on June 23, 2012, 02:45:16 AM
I'm pretty sure it will be closed-down pretty tightly. They've invested heavily and want to make some money.

This is a piece of infrastructure. Infrastructure must create opportunities to be successful. If it has the potential to do so, but is locked down so can't, the Bitcoincard will go the way of so many other cool technologies. Like BeOS.
Oh boy, I haven't heard BeOS mentioned for quite some time. I still remember back in the nineties when they wisited my university. They were ahead of their time and I think too small to pofilerate. IMO bitcoin is still small but right on time.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: MoonShadow on June 23, 2012, 05:37:56 AM
I'm pretty sure it will be closed-down pretty tightly. They've invested heavily and want to make some money.

This is a piece of infrastructure. Infrastructure must create opportunities to be successful. If it has the potential to do so, but is locked down so can't, the Bitcoincard will go the way of so many other cool technologies. Like BeOS.
Oh boy, I haven't heard BeOS mentioned for quite some time. I still remember back in the nineties when they wisited my university. They were ahead of their time and I think too small to pofilerate. IMO bitcoin is still small but right on time.

I remember trying it back in the 90's, after I'd already tried cutting my own Gentoo/Gnu linux on my own machine running BlackboxWM.  Sorry, but I was watching Stargate SG-1 torrents on a 486-66 with that, and BeOS just didn't seem to stack up.  Nothing ever did.  To this day there are people I meet who doubt that I've compiled my own Gentoo, much less played AVI files on a 66 mhz machine with 64 meg of ram.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: molecular on June 23, 2012, 07:47:56 AM
I'm pretty sure it will be closed-down pretty tightly. They've invested heavily and want to make some money.

This is a piece of infrastructure. Infrastructure must create opportunities to be successful. If it has the potential to do so, but is locked down so can't, the Bitcoincard will go the way of so many other cool technologies. Like BeOS.
Oh boy, I haven't heard BeOS mentioned for quite some time. I still remember back in the nineties when they wisited my university. They were ahead of their time and I think too small to pofilerate. IMO bitcoin is still small but right on time.

I remember trying it back in the 90's, after I'd already tried cutting my own Gentoo/Gnu linux on my own machine running BlackboxWM.  Sorry, but I was watching Stargate SG-1 torrents on a 486-66 with that, and BeOS just didn't seem to stack up.  Nothing ever did.  To this day there are people I meet who doubt that I've compiled my own Gentoo, much less played AVI files on a 66 mhz machine with 64 meg of ram.

BeOS had a problem initially after being ported to x86 (it was powerpc architecture initially until Apple disallowed clone makers) with it's MediaKit: it had to byte-swap the raw image data (twice?) because of the endianess on x86 being different than the MeditKits native pixel-format which was derived from the powerpc platform (big endian vs. little endian)


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: anu on June 23, 2012, 08:47:42 AM
Oh boy, I haven't heard BeOS mentioned for quite some time. I still remember back in the nineties when they wisited my university. They were ahead of their time and I think too small to pofilerate. IMO bitcoin is still small but right on time.

The real difference is that Bitcoin is creating opportunity. Investing in a Bitcoin business has a good feeling because you are the master of your house, not Gavin.

Be Inc, otoh, tried to keep maximum control, as is Apple's culture. You had a feeling like Gassee got you at your balls - not a good feeling. This is really what broke their neck. This is also what broke the neck of the Blackberry. And this will eventually be the death of iOS. Just try to release a Bitcoin client on iOS (http://www.bitpak.com/) and you know what I mean. There are reasons Android is with 59% way ahead of iOS (23%), even though iOS is undoubtedly better. And the reason is not only price.

For the Bitcoincard it's the same issue. It may be cool, but if as a developer you feel like under the command and at the mercy of Alex^2, this is bound to fail.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: cbeast on June 23, 2012, 11:16:31 AM
Oh boy, I haven't heard BeOS mentioned for quite some time. I still remember back in the nineties when they wisited my university. They were ahead of their time and I think too small to pofilerate. IMO bitcoin is still small but right on time.

The real difference is that Bitcoin is creating opportunity. Investing in a Bitcoin business has a good feeling because you are the master of your house, not Gavin.

Be Inc, otoh, tried to keep maximum control, as is Apple's culture. You had a feeling like Gassee got you at your balls - not a good feeling. This is really what broke their neck. This is also what broke the neck of the Blackberry. And this will eventually be the death of iOS. Just try to release a Bitcoin client on iOS (http://www.bitpak.com/) and you know what I mean. There are reasons Android is with 59% way ahead of iOS (23%), even though iOS is undoubtedly better. And the reason is not only price.

For the Bitcoincard it's the same issue. It may be cool, but if as a developer you feel like under the command and at the mercy of Alex^2, this is bound to fail.
Apple will flame out as fast as it rose. It is only as big as it is not because of its user base, but because it appeals to a generation that enjoys their vanity. All it will take is the next shiny thing to take their attention away. Meanwhile real innovation is being worked on in basements of folks like Alex^2.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: unclescrooge on June 23, 2012, 11:17:28 AM
Oh boy, I haven't heard BeOS mentioned for quite some time. I still remember back in the nineties when they wisited my university. They were ahead of their time and I think too small to pofilerate. IMO bitcoin is still small but right on time.

The real difference is that Bitcoin is creating opportunity. Investing in a Bitcoin business has a good feeling because you are the master of your house, not Gavin.

Be Inc, otoh, tried to keep maximum control, as is Apple's culture. You had a feeling like Gassee got you at your balls - not a good feeling. This is really what broke their neck. This is also what broke the neck of the Blackberry. And this will eventually be the death of iOS. Just try to release a Bitcoin client on iOS (http://www.bitpak.com/) and you know what I mean. There are reasons Android is with 59% way ahead of iOS (23%), even though iOS is undoubtedly better. And the reason is not only price.

For the Bitcoincard it's the same issue. It may be cool, but if as a developer you feel like under the command and at the mercy of Alex^2, this is bound to fail.
Apple will flame out as fast as it rose. It is only as big as it is not because of its user base, but because it appeals to a generation that enjoys their vanity. All it will take is the next shiny thing to take their attention away. Meanwhile real innovation is being worked on in basements of folks like Alex^2.
+1


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: crazy_rabbit on June 23, 2012, 03:59:54 PM
I'm pretty sure it will be closed-down pretty tightly. They've invested heavily and want to make some money.

This is a piece of infrastructure. Infrastructure must create opportunities to be successful. If it has the potential to do so, but is locked down so can't, the Bitcoincard will go the way of so many other cool technologies. Like BeOS.
Oh boy, I haven't heard BeOS mentioned for quite some time. I still remember back in the nineties when they wisited my university. They were ahead of their time and I think too small to pofilerate. IMO bitcoin is still small but right on time.
I remember trying it back in the 90's, after I'd already tried cutting my own Gentoo/Gnu linux on my own machine running BlackboxWM.  Sorry, but I was watching Stargate SG-1 torrents on a 486-66 with that, and BeOS just didn't seem to stack up.  Nothing ever did.  To this day there are people I meet who doubt that I've compiled my own Gentoo, much less played AVI files on a 66 mhz machine with 64 meg of ram.

They probably don't believe you because the Bittorent protocol was invented in 2001, so watching SG-1 torrents on a 486 machine in the 1990's would require time-travel.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: MoonShadow on June 23, 2012, 04:45:48 PM
I'm pretty sure it will be closed-down pretty tightly. They've invested heavily and want to make some money.

This is a piece of infrastructure. Infrastructure must create opportunities to be successful. If it has the potential to do so, but is locked down so can't, the Bitcoincard will go the way of so many other cool technologies. Like BeOS.
Oh boy, I haven't heard BeOS mentioned for quite some time. I still remember back in the nineties when they wisited my university. They were ahead of their time and I think too small to pofilerate. IMO bitcoin is still small but right on time.
I remember trying it back in the 90's, after I'd already tried cutting my own Gentoo/Gnu linux on my own machine running BlackboxWM.  Sorry, but I was watching Stargate SG-1 torrents on a 486-66 with that, and BeOS just didn't seem to stack up.  Nothing ever did.  To this day there are people I meet who doubt that I've compiled my own Gentoo, much less played AVI files on a 66 mhz machine with 64 meg of ram.

They probably don't believe you because the Bittorent protocol was invented in 2001, so watching SG-1 torrents on a 486 machine in the 1990's would require time-travel.


Ah, no.  The bittorrent protocol was invented in 2001, and the SG-1 series ran until 2007.  The 486-66 was old at the time, but it was all that I had until about 2003, when my sister gave me her P166, which was a huge improvement in both sync & framerate.  And I was oversimplifying also.  Running video files on the 66 required me to drop out of X-windows completely and run the video directly on the framebuffer svga driver, which didn't allow for pausing, fast-forwarding or rewinding.  It was either play from the beginning or kill it.  Even restarting a killed process didn't work right.  So when I upgraded to the 166 w/128 megs (IIRC) I was then able to run the videos in X on BlackboxWM.  So, technically, I was disingenuous; as I couldn't really run a video in BlackboxWM until the 166.  I did try BeOS in the late 90's, but it wasn't watching videos that was the killer, it was simply that I had old hardware and linux worked while BeOS (and any modern version of Windows) simply didn't in any functional manner.

These days I'm not so poor, so I'm doing this on a late model iMac because I can afford the extra costs in avoiding MicroSoft products.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: anu on June 23, 2012, 05:06:33 PM
These days I'm not so poor, so I'm doing this on a late model iMac because I can afford the extra costs in avoiding MicroSoft products.

You must have misunderstood something about the reasons to avoid MS products, else why would you jump from the frying pan into the fire?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: MoonShadow on June 23, 2012, 06:05:37 PM
These days I'm not so poor, so I'm doing this on a late model iMac because I can afford the extra costs in avoiding MicroSoft products.

You must have misunderstood something about the reasons to avoid MS products, else why would you jump from the frying pan into the fire?

You are making assumptions about my reasons for disliking MicroSoft products, and I'm still not sure what they are.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: anu on June 23, 2012, 06:23:28 PM
You are making assumptions about my reasons for disliking MicroSoft products, and I'm still not sure what they are.

If even you are not sure what your reasons are, then may I suggest you figure them out?  ;D


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: finkleshnorts on July 21, 2012, 05:28:53 AM
Sorry to dig this up...

How would double spending be prevented on a mesh network like this, if a little mesh cluster didn't have access to a dongle node?


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: MoonShadow on July 21, 2012, 05:36:49 AM
Sorry to dig this up...

How would double spending be prevented on a mesh network like this, if a little mesh cluster didn't have access to a dongle node?

If you could set up a small computer to communicate using the bitcoincard's own network protocol, there would actually be nothing to prevent you from trying to double spend to a disconnected bitcoincard user.  However, it's unlikely (not impossible) that a regular vendor would be willing to accept bitcoincard transactions sans a live Internet.


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: World on July 27, 2012, 01:32:54 PM
Can anyone introduce or send BitcoinCard to Kim Dotcom?
from @KimDotcom Is Meshnet the solution? http://vimeo.com/45819231
http://twitter.com/KimDotcom/status/228480841800642560 (http://twitter.com/KimDotcom/status/228480841800642560)


Title: Re: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on July 27, 2012, 10:41:06 PM
Can anyone introduce or send BitcoinCard to Kim Dotcom?
from @KimDotcom Is Meshnet the solution? http://vimeo.com/45819231
http://twitter.com/KimDotcom/status/228480841800642560 (http://twitter.com/KimDotcom/status/228480841800642560)

The last I heard the terms of his bail conditions prohibits him from accessing the Internet ... which is strange because he is Twittering (maybe using his wife's account?).