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Economy => Service Discussion => Topic started by: Puppet on November 30, 2014, 12:39:32 PM



Title: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on November 30, 2014, 12:39:32 PM
(this is a self-moderated thread to avoid being spammed. Every post that contains a referral link to any cloudmining site will be deleted, for reasons explained below).

Cloudmining 101

Everyone here is focused on ROI, hardly anyone seems to care if these companies are legit. The majority of cloudmining websites dont do any mining whatsoever. They pay out old customers via coinmixers from revenue that comes from recruiting new ones. This is the common definition of a ponzi scheme. No surprise, to keep the game going they usually heavily emphasize referrals and signature campaigns to make you do their dirty PR work.

Now why would you care if these companies are mining or not? All that matters is they pay out, right?
Wrong.


If the company (or more aptly: scammer) isnt mining, then its impossible on average for the investors to profit. Early investors might, but only at the expense of later ones and only if the ponzi can survive long enough.  If no mining is going on, then there is nothing to generate those profits. So dont be fooled by low prices or high payouts. Ponzi miners will drop prices as low they need to keep the game going until one day they vanish.

And dont think because its been running for 10 months, that it has to be legit either. Unlike traditional ponzi's, mining ponzi's dont risk a bank run. You cant get your money out if you begin worrying, so they can run a fairly long time.

Take PBmining,  they have been around since the beginning of 2014 and havent failed to pay so far. Does that prove its not a ponzi? Hardly. Based on their own stats, in the past month they sold ~1.5  PH worth of contracts. Good for around ~2200 BTC. During that same month they paid around 1600 BTC in dividends. A net profit of  ~600 BTC or nearly a 1/4 of a million dollar. Just for running a website. So the fact they are still paying out doesnt prove they are legit, its actually far more likely they are still paying out because it maximizes their profits ( update: pbmning meanwhile collapsed: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=887871  qed.).

Of course that cant last. At some point the new sales will slow while the owed dividends keep going up. Once the latter becomes bigger than the former, guess what the anonymous operator will do? The same thing lunamine, coinsoncloud, pirate, bitcoin-trader and countless other (mining) ponzi's before did.

http://i.istockimg.com/file_thumbview_approve/49263522/3/stock-illustration-49263522-poof-cartoon-exclamation.jpg

Be smart. Think before you invest. Dont trust *anyone* with a referral link in his signature.

Criteria to help you spot a cloud mining scam/ponzi.

1) No public mining address / no user selectable pool.
A cloud mining company that wont let you direct the hashrate to your pool of choosing and cant prove its actually mining bitcoins itself, is very likely a scam. There is no reason to hide mining address or not sign blocks. None.

2) No endorsement from any asic vendor
Asic vendors will gladly make a simple post to show the company in question is a significant customer of theirs. Its free advertisement for them and it helps their customer grow their business, so there is absolutely no reason they wouldnt. If a (cloud) mining company cant get any asic vendor to post such endorsement, you should assume they dont have any hardware to mine with.

3) No relevant pictures of their hardware and datacenter
There is no reason not to provide such pictures, except of course, if there is nothing to take pictures off. Mind you: pictures can be faked. Picture dont prove current ownership. So like all criteria listed here, by themselves they are by far insufficient proof.

4) Open ended IPO / fractional reverse mining risk
Unless the cloud mining is operated by the asic vendor himself, you can not sell an unlimited amount of hashrate. Hardware takes (usually a long) time to order, arrive and deploy. Any company that doesnt limit sales or make public how much hashrate they sold vs what they have (provably) deployed should be considered  suspicious.

5) Referral programs and social networking
Referral programs, especially ones that pay almost 10%, are a huge red flag. The mining market is cut throat with razor thin margins. No real company can afford to pay 10% referrals on below market cloudmining prices. Referral programs almost always serve only to feed the ponzi and provide financial incentive to posters to lie about the true nature of the company. Never trust anyone with a referral link in their sig.

6) Anonymous operators
If the operators are hiding behind whoisguard, provide no provable identity and especially when, like in some cloudmining cases, they use demonstrably false ID or company registration information, you have to be nuts to trust them with your money.

7) No exit strategy
If you cant sell your position, you cant get your money out. Thats the ideal case for a ponzi and allows it to run for a  long time.

8 ) Bonus point for "guaranteed profit"
So far, Ive only seen bitcoinmaker.ch do this. If anyone guarantees you a bitcoin denominated profit, and especially a 30+% one, you can be sure its a ponzi, all the other criteria become unimportant. There is no such thing as certain profit when it comes to mining, no one knows how the network will evolve, or what btc exchange rate will do. If anyone could somehow be certain of making a 30% profit, they wouldnt need your money (and they wouldnt give the profit to you).

Application of these criteria to some cloudmining companies

Feel free to post corrections or additions.

Ponzi's that have already collapsed as predicted:

Code:
PBmining.com          1+2+3+4+5+6+7      => 7/7 = Ponzi
Lunaminer.com         1+2+3+4+5+6+7      => 7/7 = Ponzi
coinsoncloud.eu       1+2+3+4+5+6+7      => 7/7 = Ponzi
Cryptomine.io         1+2+3+4+5+6+7      => 7/7 = Ponzi
hashie.co ("gen1")    1+2+3+4+5+6        => 6/7 = Ponzi
bitcoinlabmining.com  1+2+3+4+5+6+7      => 7/7 = Ponzi
ltcgear               1+3+4+5+6          => 5/7 = (very) suspicious
hashprofit.com        1+2+3+4+5          => 5/7 = (very) suspicious
minethatcloud.com     1+2+3+4+5+6+7      => 7/7 = Ponzi
CoIntellect.com       1+2+5+6+7          => 5/7 = (very) suspicious
terabox.me            1+2+3*+4+5+6+7*    => 6/7 = Ponzi (pictures are not convincing to me for now, exit strategy involves  60+ days stall tactic)
chabatmining.com      1+2+3+5+6+7        => 6/7 = Ponzi
Ecrypto.co.in         1+2+3+4+6+7        => 6/7 = Ponzi (+ confirmed scam, they are no partners of cex.io)
GenerateBTC.com       1+2+3+4+5+6+7      => 7/7 = Ponz

Likely Ponzi scams that have yet to collapse:
Code:
cloudminr.io          1+2+3+4+5+6+7      => 7/7 = Ponzi
cloudmining.website   1+2+3+4+5+6+7      => 7/7 = Ponzi
Skycoinlab.com        1+2+3+4+5+6+7      => 7/7 = Ponzi (+ organized by serial ponzi scammer: ?topic=583177.msg10298730)
btcslice.com          1+2+3+4+5+6+7      => 7/7 = Ponzi (+ pays out in reversible paypal ?)
grmining.com          1+2+3+4+5+6+7      => 7/7 = Ponzi
bitcoinmaker.ch       1+2+3+4+6+7+8      => 7/7 = Ponzi
eobot.com             1+2+3+5+6+7        => 6/7 = Ponzi (+ possible malware/wallet stealing software)
hashwar.co            1+2+3+4+6+7        => 6/7 = Ponzi
bitrush.com           1+2+3+4+6+7        => 6/7 = Ponzi
Code:
nexusmining.com       1+2*+3+4+5+7       => 6/7 = Ponzi (Guy from Spondoolies says im wrong, but I cant score what I havent seen and he seems to confirm they have no hardware)
minerslab.com         1+2+3+4+6+7        => 6/7 = Ponzi (+ selling hardware that doesnt exist + using purchased "legendary" account)
bitcoincloudservices  1+2+4+5+6*+7       => 6/7 = Ponzi (+ founded by known scammer  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=860400.msg9638868#msg9638868)
scrypt.cc             1+2+3+4+5+6        => 6/7 = Ponzi (preliminary assessment)
Kryptologika          1+2+3+4+*          => */7 = Ponzi -> passthrough of AMhash which is defunct. Currently operating as fractional reserve/ponzi.
hashcoins.com         ~1+2+3+4+7         => 5/7 = (very) suspicious (user selectable pool requires fee, dc pictures show no miners, linkedin profile doctored, hardware sales very dubious,..)
Zeushash              1+2+3+4+5          => 5/7 = (very) suspicious

Rest:
Code:
Cryptsy MN            1+2+3+4            => 4/7 = Possibly/partially legit ( + no details on fee structure)
cloudmining.sg        1+2+4+7            => 4/7 = Possibly/partially legit
genesis-mining        1+4+7              => 3/7 = Probably legit (risk of fractional reserve mining)
Megamine.com          1+4                => 2/7 = Probably legit
Bit-x.com             1+4                => 2/7 = Probably legit (preliminary assessment, partnership confirmed by Bitfury)
pow88.com             1+2                => 2/7 = Probably legit (preliminary assessment)
KNCcloud              7                  => 1/7 = Legit (but as hardware vendor, they broke their promise not to selfmine with more than 5% of customers hashrate )
Hashnest (umisoo)                        => 0/7 = Legit

Obsolete or suspended:
Code:
AMhash                                   => 0/7 = Legit (if you buy directly) / divs momentarily (?) suspended
Cex.io                4                  => 1/7 = Legit
Cryptx PETAmine                          => 0/7 = Legit
GAWminers             1+4+5+~7           => 4/7*= Possibly/partially legit based on criteria set forth. Based on wider context: more suspicious than a nun squatting in a cucumber field


Proving a ponzi

A ponzi is defined by the absence of a mechanism to generate revenue or profits (in this case: mining hardware). Proving something is a ponzi would therefore require proving a negative. You can not prove a negative, so in theory its possible any of the companies I labeled as "ponzi" are in fact mining. But thats like saying in theory its possible unicorns do exist or that its possible that Nigerian Prince who emailed you yesterday, really inherited a $500M gold mine concession and wants to share it with you. You can not prove thats not true either, but to most sensible people the complete absence of evidence is a very compelling reason to dismiss the claim, and thus certainly reason enough not to invest there.

Success rate so far

Recently imploded cloudmining scams that where  rated as (very) suspicous or ponzi: 14/14 (100% hit rate)
Companies that were rated as probably/legitimate yet substantially failed to honor their contracts: 1*/7 (86 % hit rate)
(*) Amhash which may yet resume payments, though I wouldnt bet on it

Overall hit rate: 95%

Want to help out ?

You can help out by reporting new ponzi's and preparing the assessment.

You can tip me on this address: 15YNTMoAzTCve64rveEka75qCeJMZpmDCx
Anything I receive there will be used to further this cause, like doing signature campaigns to raise awareness.

Here is the current signature campaign thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=888864
Feel free to join, you'd be helping a good cause and you might win 0.1BTC

Disclaimer

being legit does not equal being a good investment. By and large, cloud mining has not been profitable historically, and I dont expect it  will.  I do not recommend you invest in (cloud) mining at all, but if you do, at least invest in a company that will actually contribute to securing the blockchain and is not extremely likely to just steal your money.

Also, being rated as legit here doesnt guarantee you anything. All it shows is that said company has provided reasonable evidence it is a real company and your investment is backed by actual hashrate. It doesnt guarantee they wont scam you, and it certainly doesnt imply anything about profitability.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: yvv on November 30, 2014, 01:50:59 PM
Quote
hashprofit.com          1+3+4+~6+7     (looking in to it, feedback welcome)

Looks like the most suspicious among all to me. But I got the most of BTC from them through promo sales (50% discounts!) and refferals. They gave me three times more Khs for free than I bought from them on sale. Two weeks ago, I removed all referrals links from my signature on all forums which I use, but I still continue to receive free Khs from hashprofit referrals.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: monbux on November 30, 2014, 02:56:48 PM
@Puppet,
So apparently we can check and verify our hashing power on hashie.co for AMhash on its website...
http://amhash.com/hashie/index.php

More reliable in terms of AMhash? o.O


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: Puppet on November 30, 2014, 03:15:09 PM
I edited the OP to make clear that hashie's entry is about what they call "gen 1". Thats hashrate they have been selling since inception, and still sell,for which there is no shred of evidence, and no endorsement from anyone. In fact, its quite remarkable how hashie tout the provability of AM1 and remain utterly silent on the question of provability of their own hashrate. Unless you accept their logic that because they charge maintenance fees, it has to be legit (Im not kidding (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=860400.msg9695045#msg9695045)).

AMhash have stated they will back the contracts sold through hashie, so your main concern there is AMhash's credibility. Although you should wonder what happens when you place an order through Hashie and they dont pass it on. I sure would ask that question to Amhash before placing an order.




Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: wonko on December 01, 2014, 07:24:36 AM
hashie is endorsed by ASICMINER, they sell AMHASH shares at hashie and it's linked from their website


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: Puppet on December 01, 2014, 07:26:38 AM
hashie is endorsed by ASICMINER, they sell AMHASH shares at hashie and it's linked from their website

Please reread the post above yours carefully. Then if you can find any endorsement of any kind for their "Generation 1", please do link.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: bitpop on December 01, 2014, 08:38:53 AM
All of them are scams. What's so hard about hodling Bitcoin? Any time you give someone your Bitcoin, you just begin begging for it back.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: Puppet on December 01, 2014, 08:45:02 AM
All of them are scams. What's so hard about hodling Bitcoin? Any time you give someone your Bitcoin, you just begin begging for it back.

They may all be bad investments, that doesnt mean they are all the same. Unlike you I do see a big difference between an anonymous scammer who's sole intent is to steal your coins the moment his ponzi implodes and a real, identifiable company thats selling provable hashrate that may or may not yield a profit, depending solely on future difficulty. Read the disclaimer too.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: bitpop on December 01, 2014, 09:22:31 AM
All of them are scams. What's so hard about hodling Bitcoin? Any time you give someone your Bitcoin, you just begin begging for it back.

They may all be bad investments, that doesnt mean they are all the same. Unlike you I do see a big difference between an anonymous scammer who's sole intent is to steal your coins the moment his ponzi implodes and a real, identifiable company thats selling provable hashrate that may or may not yield a profit, depending solely on future difficulty. Read the disclaimer too.

I do believe they are all exits for the creator. For example, petamine has cash in hand from the ipo on havelock. They have no incentive to maintain mining and that's where customers become the sheep. The mining has 0 profit. The remaining pumpers trade the actual "stock". The actual mining has no value. They even spread lies it would switch to p2pool to increase the stock price.

I don't think you are trying to mislead anyone but you haven't understood how deep these scams go. Or where the incentives and exits are. Cex.io mining shares were way above market value, what they could mine, because the shares were being pumped and dumped. The actually mining wasn't even taken into account.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: Puppet on December 01, 2014, 09:39:53 AM
I do believe they are all exits for the creator.

As is any for-profit company. But we dont call them scams unless they fail to comply with their contractual obligations. The purpose of this list is to help determine how (un)likely it is an operator will honor the contracts its selling, not to determine how (un)profitable those contracts may be, either for the seller or buyer.

Quote
For example, petamine has cash in hand from the ipo on havelock. They have no incentive to maintain mining and that's where customers become the sheep. The mining has 0 profit. The remaining pumpers trade the actual "stock". The actual mining has no value. They even spread lies it would switch to p2pool to increase the stock price.

I don't think you are trying to mislead anyone but you haven't understood how deep these scams go. Or where the incentives and exits are.

No offense, but if you actually followed the petamine thread, you must have noticed I was one of the only people there that actually understood what was going on and quite accurately predicted what was going to happen. So dont tell me that I "dont understand".

Peta was a hugely overpriced IPO, but you can not blame the issuer for market demand. You are also mistaken in your assumption the p2pool switch rumor was to boost price; the operator holds no shares in peta, he has no incentive to boost the price post IPO. Its silly investors who thought that rumor was somehow going to boost the price, in reality switching to P2Pool would have been a really stupid decision, shareholders should be grateful he did not.





Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: Osiris on December 02, 2014, 07:52:27 PM
Hi,

Thanks for putting this up.  I am considering investing in cloud mining and this list is helpful.  I'm surprised about Zeus.  Aren't they a vendor also?  If so do they qualify for a 2?  Are AMHash legit.  They don't look it?  What evidence is there that are legit?

Thanks


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: Puppet on December 02, 2014, 08:05:27 PM
Thanks for putting this up.  I am considering investing in cloud mining and this list is helpful.  I'm surprised about Zeus.  Aren't they a vendor also?  If so do they qualify for a 2? 

The list is mostly targeting bitcoin (sha), as I dont really follow the altcoin scene. Zeusminer does sell scrypt machines. but I have not seen any compelling evidence for the SHA mining contracts they sell. If there is any, please link it.

Quote
Are AMHash legit.  They don't look it?  What evidence is there that are legit?

AMhash is a cooperation between asicminer (AM) and RockMiner. Both are well known, especially AM, which is one of the first companies to produce bitcoin asics. There is no real doubt AMhash is "real", in the sense that they have the hashrate. Not only do have the endorsements, photo's, most importantly we have public mining addresses for them. The big problem IMO with AMhash is the reseller, which currently only is hashie which is at best shady.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: Puppet on December 02, 2014, 10:10:36 PM
As I can see here u have listed GAWminer and Genesis-Mining as Probably Legit. Maybe, according to your criteria, they are. But, I'd request to u to check the following threads to get informed about the actual picture.


i. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=809563.0
ii. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=875487.0
iii. http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMining/comments/2enhh4/genesisminingcom_is_a_dishonestly_run_business/

I suggest you read the entire line about GAW.  in case you cant scroll horizontally its rated "4/7*= Possibly/partially legit based on criteria set forth. Based on wider context: more suspicious than a nun squatting in a cucumber field".

As for genesis mining; I only see an accusation of shilling or sock puppetry. That sort of behavior wouldnt surprise me one bit from any company on my list. I make no attempt to judge company ethics, the disclaimer defines legit as " All it shows is that said company has provided reasonable evidence it is a real company and your investment is backed by actual hashrate." If you have evidence that undermines that claim for genesis mining, or my rating for it,  Id love to see it.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: yvv on December 02, 2014, 10:52:51 PM

AMhash is a cooperation between asicminer (AM) and RockMiner. Both are well known, especially AM, which is one of the first companies to produce bitcoin asics. There is no real doubt AMhash is "real", in the sense that they have the hashrate. Not only do have the endorsements, photo's, most importantly we have public mining addresses for them. The big problem IMO with AMhash is the reseller, which currently only is hashie which is at best shady.

The other reseller is havelockinvestments.com


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: Puppet on December 02, 2014, 10:56:24 PM

The other reseller is havelockinvestments.com


havelock is a secondary market, there are no IPO's there right now for amhash, and non planned that I know off. Not that havelock is beyond scrutiny


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: bitgeek on December 03, 2014, 02:46:37 AM
As I can see here u have listed GAWminer and Genesis-Mining as Probably Legit. Maybe, according to your criteria, they are. But, I'd request to u to check the following threads to get informed about the actual picture.


i. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=809563.0
ii. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=875487.0
iii. http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMining/comments/2enhh4/genesisminingcom_is_a_dishonestly_run_business/

Next time read the threads before repeating FUD. Don't just link them because you saw the word "scam" in the topic. This is one of the posts from the first link you posted:

you sold 5 mh/s of Zen for $90 but wanted to post them for $900 ?  so you leave GAW CEO negative feedback for it ?  lol  you should thank them.  you came out way ahead.  the zen are selling for $10-12 each now.  

i never thoroughly read your post till now.  i thought you sold a larger lot size.  seems to me like your moaning and groaning over nothing.  put on your big pants.  there are folks that actually did have mistake sales where they sold 900 zens for $18 total.  IMO you should give negative feedback when it is deserved.  seems to me like you jumped the gun.  

my .02

http://s29.postimg.org/gmjz33obn/Dawson_Creek.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/gmjz33obn/)
I am not sure why the OP is even still on default trust (especially after two long standing very reputable members were removed from default trust for much less of a questionable feedback). The OP is clearly trying to scam GAW by trying to get them to pay him an over market price of the hashlets he was "selling"


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: dodziu on December 03, 2014, 07:22:58 AM

chabatmining.com

1+2+3+5+6+7 Ponzi


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: Puppet on December 03, 2014, 07:34:11 AM
Checked and added


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: randy8777 on December 03, 2014, 02:33:46 PM
i am interested in mining as newbie and this thread is easy to understand.
mining at this point is not wise? or is it better to wait for later moment when price is higher.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: bitpop on December 03, 2014, 02:38:22 PM
i am interested in mining as newbie and this thread is easy to understand.
mining at this point is not wise? or is it better to wait for later moment when price is higher.

What's so hard about buying bitcoin? The fact you don't have to beg someone for it back?


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: yvv on December 03, 2014, 03:10:27 PM
i am interested in mining as newbie and this thread is easy to understand.
mining at this point is not wise? or is it better to wait for later moment when price is higher.

Mining is always wise, since bitcoin and other crypto coins can't work without mining. It is just unprofitable from time to time.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: cakir on December 03, 2014, 10:18:23 PM
Hi I want to ask something.

You're saying Amhash is legit but when I want to buy some hash from amhash, it redirects me to hashie.co which is marked as ponzi.

So, is hashie.co legit or ponzi?


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: yvv on December 03, 2014, 10:30:44 PM
Hi I want to ask something.

You're saying Amhash is legit but when I want to buy some hash from amhash, it redirects me to hashie.co which is marked as ponzi.

So, is hashie.co legit or ponzi?

Hashie is not ponzi. They were selling real hash power from amhash, but suspended it until December 10. It is just a crappy service imo.

You can buy amhash shares from hevelock starting from December 10. They announced IPO for 1Phs.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: Puppet on December 03, 2014, 10:58:46 PM
Hi I want to ask something.

You're saying Amhash is legit but when I want to buy some hash from amhash, it redirects me to hashie.co which is marked as ponzi.

So, is hashie.co legit or ponzi?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=878387.msg9698863#msg9698863


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: Luzifer on December 03, 2014, 11:33:54 PM
are there more legit firms ? i have already invested in cointellect (iam newbie). but they are still paying daily without any problems.



Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: Wintermute on December 04, 2014, 09:26:33 AM
Very useful compilation of cloud mining sites. Thank you!

Just for your information: Genesis Mining scrypt is out of stock for about two weeks now.

https://www.genesis-mining.com/pricing

disclosure: I am mining with them (and they seem to be legit)



Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: bitpop on December 04, 2014, 07:00:29 PM
CoIntellect.com is not PONZI or scam.I make every day 20 euros for them.Money can take and I take every day.Do not have to use their software mining.
For them I have earned over 3000 euros.

If you want to join please use my reff.link:

https://cointellect.com/?code=virus

Pretty sure that's just a virus you have to download


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: blubberli on December 04, 2014, 07:07:20 PM
deleted, as original post was deleted.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: Puppet on December 05, 2014, 07:57:02 AM
Please dont quote referral link spam.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: bitpop on December 05, 2014, 06:03:20 PM
Please dont quote referral link spam.

Done feel free to delete this confirmation


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: davles on December 05, 2014, 06:58:52 PM
If you feel that the virus does not have to use.Do not lie you know you are when you do not know.

Thanks admin idiot to delete my post.Ban me because only lie in this forum...


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: Puppet on December 05, 2014, 08:37:47 PM
If you feel that the virus does not have to use.Do not lie you know you are when you do not know.

Thanks admin idiot to delete my post.Ban me because only lie in this forum...

Im not an admin, this is a self moderated thread and the rules are in the first line of the first post "Every post that contains a referral link to any cloudmining site will be deleted".
Thats why yours got deleted.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: pawel7777 on December 06, 2014, 11:32:32 AM
So apparently cloudminer.io posted fake photos of the "team":

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=832448.msg9750877#msg9750877 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=832448.msg9750877#msg9750877)

Followed by some bullshit explanation as expected.

Left their sig camp due to that.

But what bothers me is they have registered UK business (one owner Eric Rosby), so if it started with intention of creating a ponzi, that would probably mean they either 'hijacked' some unrelated company's details (not very likely), or just provided fake personal details of owner/director (more likely, as I don't think Companies House has strong verification process).


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: bitpop on December 06, 2014, 11:42:34 AM

jmordica's Mining Statement: http://youtu.be/ZY284WtOd9A

That video was two and a half minutes I'll never get back. Two guys jawboning over a videolink, smiling at each other and smirking while they seemingly watch a guy's ass in a darkened datacentre... whatever this clip purports to prove has obviously remained elusive ???  >:(

A complete waste of time. If this video is any reflection on the calibre of the participants involved then the only thing I'd say is, "Seek alternatives".



 :(






Haha the ass was extra funny

Remember that neobee guy cam back to make fun of the victims

Just remember that neobee was a scam all along and he came back to laugh at everyone who believed him

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2dbn57/whats_mark_karpeles_doing_today_whats_danny/cjnziyl


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: Puppet on December 06, 2014, 12:14:14 PM
But what bothers me is they have registered UK business (one owner Eric Rosby), so if it started with intention of creating a ponzi, that would probably mean they either 'hijacked' some unrelated company's details (not very likely), or just provided fake personal details of owner/director (more likely, as I don't think Companies House has strong verification process).

Its the latter. Apparently it costs  £15 to register a company in the UK, and doesnt require any sort of ID. All you need is an address, and all these scams use mail forwarding companies for that. In the case of cryptomine, the address they post belongs to http://www.londonpresence.com/


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: pawel7777 on December 06, 2014, 12:51:00 PM
But what bothers me is they have registered UK business (one owner Eric Rosby), so if it started with intention of creating a ponzi, that would probably mean they either 'hijacked' some unrelated company's details (not very likely), or just provided fake personal details of owner/director (more likely, as I don't think Companies House has strong verification process).

Its the latter. Apparently it costs  £15 to register a company in the UK, and doesnt require any sort of ID. All you need is an address, and all these scams use mail forwarding companies for that. In the case of cryptomine, the address they post belongs to http://www.londonpresence.com/

True. But if I remember correctly CH would also require national insurance number for UK residents (I may be wrong on this one tho), so I imagine they do some basic name/address/NIN cross-match.

Let's give "Eric" some time to prove his identity, if he fails - we should report it:

http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/infoAndGuide/reportingFraud.shtml (http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/infoAndGuide/reportingFraud.shtml)


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: pawel7777 on December 07, 2014, 07:08:48 PM
Puppet, will you be assessing Bit-x.com? They core business is exchange, but they also offer cloudmining, so pretty similar to CEX.io.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: Puppet on December 08, 2014, 08:45:55 AM
What do you know about them? Glancing over their website, I can find some credentials that appear to check out, but only concern their trading business. I find pretty much nothing about their mining operation beyond a bitfury logo. Is there more?


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: Puppet on December 08, 2014, 08:59:34 AM
Cloudmining sites seem so Ponzi to me, is there any company who shared out some 'real mining' photos to prove that they're really doing this business?

Have you bothered to even read the OP, or are you just spamming your signature?


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: eneloop on December 08, 2014, 12:56:27 PM
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=883613.0
I would say 1+2+3+4+5+6+7


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: pawel7777 on December 08, 2014, 08:24:43 PM
What do you know about them? Glancing over their website, I can find some credentials that appear to check out, but only concern their trading business. I find pretty much nothing about their mining operation beyond a bitfury logo. Is there more?

I don't know much about them. Thought you may know some more. I asked them in their announcement post to provide some more info:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=874312.msg9779503#msg9779503 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=874312.msg9779503#msg9779503)


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: Puppet on December 09, 2014, 08:01:01 AM
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=883613.0
I would say 1+2+3+4+5+6+7

thx, added. I was inclined to give them half a point for referrals (at 1% thats not a huge red flag), but when I see "Days Online: 3 | Last update: Dec 9, 2014 | Started: Dec 6, 2014" its almost as if they dont mind you know its a ponzi, by touting you can still get in early.

Let me know if something changes.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: Wintermute on December 09, 2014, 10:37:41 AM
It is like this for about three weeks now (not to talk about X11 which is "available soon" since about three months)

http://i.imgur.com/WasFWIM.png?1


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: bitpop on December 09, 2014, 11:04:37 AM
Can you add Pyramining


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: Puppet on December 09, 2014, 11:10:22 AM
It is like this for about three weeks now (not to talk about X11 which is "available soon" since about three months)

Not sure what you are trying to say.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: Puppet on December 09, 2014, 11:28:21 AM
Can you add Pyramining

Anything I should know? The website is particularly light on details, the thread incredibly long...


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: bitpop on December 09, 2014, 11:42:29 AM
Can you add Pyramining

Anything I should know? The website is particularly light on details, the thread incredibly long...

Not really, it an oldie, it has pyramid right in its name, people still invested including myself back in like 2011. It was more honest because it actually told you it was a pyramid scheme and surprisingly actually did a little mining. I got 10% back. As much of a pyramid scam it was, it was honest in a way.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: bitcoinmind on December 09, 2014, 05:32:33 PM
In the list i see five services that are "legit". Are you sure? What if in a few days or weeks, one run with money?


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: Puppet on December 09, 2014, 06:32:03 PM
In the list i see five services that are "legit". Are you sure? What if in a few days or weeks, one run with money?

Then I point to the disclaimer which I put up there for a reason.

That said, Im willing to take bets the ones I labeled 'legit" will not vanish in the next days or weeks or 6 months. Im equally willing to make escrowed bets that the 7/7 ponzi's will run with the money within the next ~6-9 months. So yeah, Ill put my money where my mouth is.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: Puppet on December 09, 2014, 10:10:34 PM
And pbmining imploded:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=887871

3 down, at least 10 to go. Who's next?


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: tmfp on December 09, 2014, 10:30:55 PM
And pbmining imploded:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=887871

3 down, at least 10 to go. Who's next?

LOL, not quite flat lining yet but definitely not looking too healthy.

Anyway, as 'Eric Rosby' said, the Superheroes are on the case.
 :D
Quake in your boots, ponzi scum...

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you
 
SUPERPUPPET





 


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: armedmilitia on December 10, 2014, 07:57:21 AM
Quick correction here, because it's irrationally bugging me: Your entry for GAWMiner should be GAWMiners, plural. That's what they call themselves, anyway.  ;)


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: Puppet on December 10, 2014, 08:44:08 AM
fixed :)


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: raskul on December 10, 2014, 02:23:39 PM
you seen this one Puppet?

https://www.nexusmining.com

thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=888378.msg9795500#msg9795500

historically:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=320965.msg3436265#msg3436265

linked to:

http://nexusminer.com
purporting to be able to offer 500TH/s machines

 ::)



Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: Puppet on December 10, 2014, 02:34:09 PM
you seen this one Puppet?

https://www.nexusmining.com


I had not. *sigh* these scams really are a dime a dozen. One down and three new ones pop up. Do you know if anyone verified the listed address?


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: raskul on December 10, 2014, 02:35:40 PM
you seen this one Puppet?

https://www.nexusmining.com


I had not. *sigh* these scams really are a dime a dozen. One down and three new ones pop up. Do you know if anyone verified the listed address?

nope, i was going to look into it but it's my 40th birthday and i keep getting annoying visitors.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: Puppet on December 10, 2014, 02:37:32 PM
nope, i was going to look into it but it's my 40th birthday and i keep getting annoying visitors.

Ha! Happy birthday young man :)


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: bitcoinmind on December 10, 2014, 02:59:43 PM
it seems that your thread can be worthless .. It looks like soon all services will become scams..


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: sunny1 on December 10, 2014, 03:40:12 PM
it seems that your thread can be worthless .. It looks like soon all services will become scams..

Nonsense! Some are legitimate businesses and that includes AM Hash, but even Zeus and Genesis among some others.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: bitpop on December 10, 2014, 03:58:01 PM
it seems that your thread can be worthless .. It looks like soon all services will become scams..

Nonsense! Some are legitimate businesses and that includes AM Hash, but even Zeus and Genesis among some others.


It takes one click to oversell and instant ponzi


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: raskul on December 10, 2014, 04:05:44 PM
we should have a competition... how many ponzi's can you find in a day


https://www.skycoinlab.com


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: Tigggger on December 10, 2014, 04:16:47 PM
At the rate these are springing up could be a full time job maintaining this list.

I suggest starting with the basis that any new ones are 1+2+3+4+5+6+7 = Ponzi, and send the site owners a message pointing to this thread and encourage them to provide the proof needed to ensure they don't remain marked that way, let them do the bulk of the work to prove they are legit.



Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: Puppet on December 10, 2014, 04:54:50 PM
At the rate these are springing up could be a full time job maintaining this list.

I suggest starting with the basis that any new ones are 1+2+3+4+5+6+7 = Ponzi, and send the site owners a message pointing to this thread and encourage them to provide the proof needed to ensure they don't remain marked that way, let them do the bulk of the work to prove they are legit.

I was pretty much doing that already, but I dont think its fair to label anyone as a ponzi if I havent even checked them out, or given them an opportunity to give or highlight evidence that may be public. So as of now, and with the above linked (scam, bet on it), I just ask the questions I use as criteria and give the operator a chance to reply before defaulting their score to 7/7.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: Puppet on December 10, 2014, 04:59:10 PM
It takes one click to oversell and instant ponzi

True, but a real company with real people and real assets would then be taking a real risk, financially and potentially even facing jail time. Its possible of course, see MtGox, but its not equally likely to happen as with these anonymous copy/paste scams. I hope Im not implying any of these companies is somehow 100% trustworthy, no company or person ever is. You could one day run away with an escrow,  but that doesnt mean you are as likely to scam someone as, say, Dank,


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 10, 2014, 09:29:14 PM
I started a signature campaign to promote this thread and push back a tiny little bit against the ponzi's:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=888864


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jokerboy on December 11, 2014, 12:06:37 AM
What do you think about https://hashprofit.com ? Is it legit ?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 11, 2014, 12:11:19 AM
You find them under the list with the others that I havent yet formally rated. Looks suspicious (probably 4 or 5 points), but Id need to investigate further


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jokerboy on December 11, 2014, 12:13:58 AM
You find them under the list with the others that I havent yet formally rated. Looks suspicious (probably 4 or 5 points), but Id need to investigate further
I saw that but I just think maybe you had a decision so far.  Thanks


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: raskul on December 11, 2014, 07:09:48 AM
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=444495.msg4885241#msg4885241

www.scrypt.cc

looks like another ponzi winding down


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: onyxxerl on December 11, 2014, 08:24:01 AM
kNCloud?
Google even doesnot find it........and this should be legal?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 11, 2014, 08:30:45 AM
typo. Its knccloud
https://www.knccloud.com/

Ill fix it.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cypher21 on December 11, 2014, 09:00:34 AM
Hi puppet.
First thx for your list.

But i have an idea to made your list clearly.  Can you pls made 2 list: one with the services that payout and another list of services which already collapsed. I think we have a better view in the lists. And i probably think that in the future the list of the collapsed services grow...


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: johny08 on December 11, 2014, 09:54:11 AM
There is hashfast cloud Mining starting 20 december and i am already in since 10 days.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: raskul on December 11, 2014, 09:59:58 AM
There is hashfast cloud Mining starting 20 december and i am already in since 10 days.

do you have a link for this?


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: Wintermute on December 11, 2014, 10:51:54 AM
It is like this for about three weeks now (not to talk about X11 which is "available soon" since about three months)

Not sure what you are trying to say.

I was referring to point number (4) of the list:

"4) Open ended IPO
Unless the cloud mining is operated by the asic vendor himself, you can not sell an unlimited amount of hashrate. Hardware takes (usually a long) time to order, arrive and deploy. Any company that doesnt limit sales or make public how much hashrate they sold vs what they have (provably) deployed should be considered extremely suspicious. "

Just wanted to point out that they did not sell scrypt for 3-4 weeks. FWIW. Maybe I did not understand the point (4) though.

Thanks for the list!


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 11, 2014, 10:58:43 AM
Ok. Yeah I should rephrase that parameter. Basically if I am unable to compare sold hashrate with provably deployed hashrate, or in some other way can have confidence they are not doing "fractional reserve mining"  I count that as a point.
Just stating they are out of hashrate from time to time isnt nearly good enough in that regard.

As illustration, I know bitfury/ cex.io  has an enormous amount of real hashrate, no one doubts that. But they also sold an enormous amount via cex.io and partners. I cant compare them, or even distinguish miners that just use ghash.io pool from their own machines,   so that gave them a point.

OTOH, KNC, we know they have a huge datacenter and its pretty much impossible they sold more than a fraction of that via knccloud. Hence, no points there.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: bitpop on December 11, 2014, 12:31:54 PM
Knc may have the hash but they'll scam you six ways from Sunday before you get paid


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 11, 2014, 12:35:09 PM
Knc may have the hash but they'll scam you six ways from Sunday before you get paid

Ive seen no evidence of that, if you are talking about their cloudmining. Got a link for me?

KnC is hated/distrusted and deservedly so for the stunts they pulled off selling hardware. I added a remark reflecting that, but I cant score their cloudmining offering any different than I did based on what I know about it. Doesnt mean I think you should mine there (or anywhere).


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: shadowmoon on December 11, 2014, 12:45:24 PM
All of them are scams. What's so hard about hodling Bitcoin? Any time you give someone your Bitcoin, you just begin begging for it back.

ya this is the truth
numerous of cloud mining websites today
but turning scam within a month


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: johny08 on December 11, 2014, 02:46:37 PM
There is hashfast cloud Mining starting 20 december and i am already in since 10 days.

do you have a link for this?

cloud.hashcoins.com

Pools selection and instant payments. So I am in 20 % ghash.io, 40% btcguild, 40% eligius.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 11, 2014, 03:28:22 PM
hashcoin != hashfast

Hashcoin is a fairly shady company that sold/sells some 2 chip miners based on hashfast chip and makes promises (and sells) some larger miners with specs that cant be real (Ill believe 1TH/S and 0.6J/GH from a hashfast GN chip when I see it). Id be very wary of their cloudmining offering.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: raskul on December 11, 2014, 03:35:45 PM
hashcoin != hashfast

Hashcoin is a fairly shady company that sold/sells some 2 chip miners based on hashfast chip and makes promises (and sells) some larger miners with specs that cant be real (Ill believe 1TH/S and 0.6J/GH from a hashfast GN chip when I see it). Id be very wary of their cloudmining offering.

+1 the website says you can change pools (and they charge extra for this service)
I just received an SP31 from SP-Tech and it's pulling 0.53w/GH - this is tech which a full year more advanced than the golden nonce.

i agree, the entire hashcoin thing reads like a stinking scam.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 11, 2014, 04:07:29 PM
added hashcoin, didnt know their service was up for sale already. Some red flags I encountered:
- as mentioned above, user selectable pool requires undisclosed fee and its not even clear you can direct your entire hashrate
- No internal pool info or blockchain evidence that Ive seen
- pictures show generic datacenter but no miners whatsoever
- linkedin profile CEO suspicious, endorsements from coworker (who is listed as CEO in other company), company profile shows only 1 employee..
Ive also seen some of those profile pics before, but cant remember where.
- Unclear what asic supplier they use. If hashfast, lack of endorsement might be understandable, but where are they going to keep sourcing chips?

Its not a clearcut 100% scam, but the above should be enough to avoid it until they provide more compelling evidence.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: activebiz on December 11, 2014, 06:58:31 PM
this is a great guide to help people make the right decision when joining a mining contract. it also help highlight reputable companies.
thanks a lot


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on December 12, 2014, 03:36:24 AM
Question about Genesis-Mining. You gave them a 1+4+7, can you point out where a Bitcoin hardware vendor vouched for them to satisfy #2?
Their pricing seems more reasonable, but unless I'm misunderstanding it seems like they're offering a lifetime contract with all fees included for $0.77/GH/s. That raises all kinds of red flags regardless of having a couple pictures of hashing boxes.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 12, 2014, 07:33:03 AM
Question about Genesis-Mining. You gave them a 1+4+7, can you point out where a Bitcoin hardware vendor vouched for them to satisfy #2?
Their pricing seems more reasonable, but unless I'm misunderstanding it seems like they're offering a lifetime contract with all fees included for $0.77/GH/s. That raises all kinds of red flags regardless of having a couple pictures of hashing boxes.

I dont remember, and wonder if I messed up. I removed them from the list while Im reviewing this, thx for pointing out!

edit: Marco reminded me where I saw it, its on their homepage, testimonials from spondoolies en zeus.
Granted, they could easily be faked, so I asked for a confirmation from the other party, but I would expect we'd have heard from Guy by now if that was faked.

Other points are being discussed.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment)
Post by: bitcoinmind on December 12, 2014, 04:12:40 PM
it seems that your thread can be worthless .. It looks like soon all services will become scams..

Nonsense! Some are legitimate businesses and that includes AM Hash, but even Zeus and Genesis among some others.


It takes one click to oversell and instant ponzi

exactly what I was thinking .. of course nobody would want, but remember what happened to Mt. Gox ..


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on December 13, 2014, 03:18:39 PM
Why hashie gen1 is a scam ? Can you please explain?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: UKBC on December 13, 2014, 03:27:30 PM
Very interesting read and I have learned something from your post. To flip the coin the other way, you have shown what is a Ponzi scheme but could you not list companies in your eyes that is not a Ponzi scheme. I can't see any thread here on good mining companies as I would love to read. So if there is a link you or anyone can provide for me to help me invest my money wisely then please could you or others guide me in the right direction please ?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on December 13, 2014, 03:35:53 PM
The problem is that you cannot tell the difference between ponzi and legit business. You can starrt a legit business, show your hashrate and have your miners and at some stage you stop re-buying hashing power from the suppliers and go fractional mining only. Thus you will be partially ponzi partially legit.
The only thing I like is that those fake ponzi schemes are collapsing now in front of our eyes because of flat difficulty. And since they are not able to get new customers to continue their operation they just go belly up as PBmining did.

There is no chance to positively verify a legit mining operation, that's the paradox.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: UKBC on December 13, 2014, 03:41:29 PM
13sny all that being said you must be mining with a company somewhere. What would your advice be. Do I try and mine from home and use too much electricity and burn my Mac to a cinder. Is there any alternatives for me to invest my money in to? I'm new to this forum. Not to Bitcoin and I did used to mine with a friend from his house but the profit was bearly breaking even.

I'm happy to be advised but if you mine, who do you mine with ? Even if you post me to some threads on this site. There is a lot of information on this forum and really don't know where to start to be honest.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: darkangel11 on December 13, 2014, 03:50:10 PM
There is no chance to positively verify a legit mining operation, that's the paradox.

Yes, there is!
If you show your mining address anyone can calculate how many coins you mined and how many you paid out to your clients. As long as the coins keep moving from the mining address to their clients, while the money the clients paid for shares go to a separate address, everything is fine.




Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Mabsark on December 13, 2014, 03:56:35 PM
Very interesting read and I have learned something from your post. To flip the coin the other way, you have shown what is a Ponzi scheme but could you not list companies in your eyes that is not a Ponzi scheme. I can't see any thread here on good mining companies as I would love to read. So if there is a link you or anyone can provide for me to help me invest my money wisely then please could you or others guide me in the right direction please ?

Look at the bottom of Puppet's list and you'll see the legit services:

Cex.io
KNCcloud
Cryptx PETAmine
AMhash
Hashnest(*after merge)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: UKBC on December 13, 2014, 04:00:04 PM
Think you might have me a it wrong. Mining address ? My website is www.solesolutions-reflexology.co.uk I meant my patients pay me Bitcoin to my Bitcoin address. Bottom of my website shows I accept Bitcoin. But I do it by mobile phone when I see my clients.

I want to know how to get out the cloud mining trap of being scammed as I have cloud mining revenue ready to re invest but looking at other options. But so much information on this site It does make me rather confused. I just wNted to know if there was a half reputable site for mining. I would like to start GPU on my Mac but information here is rather short in respect to that.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 13, 2014, 04:01:46 PM
The problem is that you cannot tell the difference between ponzi and legit business. You can starrt a legit business, show your hashrate and have your miners and at some stage you stop re-buying hashing power from the suppliers and go fractional mining only. Thus you will be partially ponzi partially legit.
The only thing I like is that those fake ponzi schemes are collapsing now in front of our eyes because of flat difficulty. And since they are not able to get new customers to continue their operation they just go belly up as PBmining did.

There is no chance to positively verify a legit mining operation, that's the paradox.

This has already been discussed a few times. Any company can go rogue, or there could be other reasons why its no longer able to fullfill its contracts (bankruptcy, fire, meteor impact, whatever). But what few companies do is provide adequate evidence that they:

- do physically own the hashrate they are selling
- can be held accountable if they no longer fulfill their contract

And there is a HUGE difference between companies that can do that, and one's that dont even try.



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: raskul on December 13, 2014, 04:02:06 PM
Ewwww nobody gets to touch my feet.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: UKBC on December 13, 2014, 04:04:44 PM
Thank you Mabsark, I did not see that Cheers :-)

One question why are some people on this forum rude. One chap on another thread said I am a newbie fake account. I did not understand why he said this to me. I grew up on trusting people until they do something wrong to you. I know a bit old fashioned and I get walked all over sometimes but some people on this site need better manners with posting to other people.

I guess a lot of people are cautious of new people on this site, to that I am starting to understand why since I have noticed a lot of trolls and fake people. Seriously some people on this site should hold back before being so forthcoming :-)

Thanks again for your help :-)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on December 13, 2014, 04:06:00 PM
There is no chance to positively verify a legit mining operation, that's the paradox.

Yes, there is!
If you show your mining address anyone can calculate how many coins you mined and how many you paid out to your clients. As long as the coins keep moving from the mining address to their clients, while the money the clients paid for shares go to a separate address, everything is fine.


Even if you have a public mining address you would have to be mining with your own miners on a pool. What if you use a hosted service elsewhere and bitcoins are being distributed among other participants and then redistributed to the shareholders minus the costs of maintenance? You would need to know not only the number of users but also the amount of shares each of them has. It cannot be solved that easily as you think.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: UKBC on December 13, 2014, 04:06:35 PM
I'm learning a lot from you Puppet.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on December 13, 2014, 04:30:30 PM
The problem is that you cannot tell the difference between ponzi and legit business. You can starrt a legit business, show your hashrate and have your miners and at some stage you stop re-buying hashing power from the suppliers and go fractional mining only. Thus you will be partially ponzi partially legit.
The only thing I like is that those fake ponzi schemes are collapsing now in front of our eyes because of flat difficulty. And since they are not able to get new customers to continue their operation they just go belly up as PBmining did.

There is no chance to positively verify a legit mining operation, that's the paradox.

This has already been discussed a few times. Any company can go rogue, or there could be other reasons why its no longer able to fullfill its contracts (bankruptcy, fire, meteor impact, whatever). But what few companies do is provide adequate evidence that they:

- do physically own the hashrate they are selling
- can be held accountable if they no longer fulfill their contract

And there is a HUGE difference between companies that can do that, and one's that dont even try.


I do agree there is.

However:
-physical ownership is a kind of wrong argument. It excludes platforms using hosted services from another locations. CEX for example claims they host all over the world. You cannot say they physically own the hashrate. They just technically own the hashrate. So I believe there are many legit businesses hosting with third parties in some distant locations and they do not physically own the equipment as you put it.
-setting up a limited company solves this problem to the degree of the sum fixed in the funding contract (or extended further in the future if a company raises more capital). So technically I can set up an Ltd with $1,000 capital and my liabilities will be limited to this amount. Everything is correct according to law but to me it does not give the credibility.

I think it is a very valuable thread.

To sum up... I am responsible for kryptologika operations. We have been checked and challenged before and nobody was able to prove we are a scam. On the other hand we are reluctant to disclose the details of our hashrate, where we mine, and/or any relevant data that is required here. This is our company secret. Since we use physical silver we can only show you the pictures of the coins ;)
I have offered Puppet an exclusive offer to provide him with undeniable proof we are mining and we posses the hashrate if he keeps it confidential.  He declined so the things have to remain as they are.




Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 13, 2014, 05:47:35 PM
However:
-physical ownership is a kind of wrong argument. It excludes platforms using hosted services from another locations. CEX for example claims they host all over the world. You cannot say they physically own the hashrate.

I dont know how cex.io is structured exactly, but AFAIK its at least partially owned by bitfury. Bitfury most certainly does posses a shitload of physical mining assets. And this is important, because you claim to rent your hashrate somewhere else. THat means;

1) you have no control over it
2) you add a layer of uncertainty on top of a third party provider that we arent even allowed to know and therefore can not judge.

Even if you're not lying, we can not know if you thought eg pbmining was a legitimate venture, and you could have bought hashrate there. Or you might be buying at GAWminers.

Moreover, we would have to know what kind of deal you have exactly. For instance, are you renting for 1 month? 1 year?  5 years ?

Just are essentially just saying 'trust me", and that is not going to cut it.

Quote
-setting up a limited company solves this problem to the degree of the sum fixed in the funding contract (or extended further in the future if a company raises more capital). So technically I can set up an Ltd with $1,000 capital and my liabilities will be limited to this amount. Everything is correct according to law but to me it does not give the credibility.

No your liabilities are not limited to $1000 if you perpetuate fraud.

As Ive said this a few times, its of course possible some honest companies are being labeled as ponzi by me now, just like its possible there some real Nigerian princes willing to do business with you. But considering the label is because of their lack of disclosure, Im completely fine with that, and certainly prefer it over attributing a legitimate label to a company that turns out to be a ponzi.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Alns on December 13, 2014, 05:51:30 PM
Thanks, cool list.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: armedmilitia on December 13, 2014, 06:39:55 PM
From the looks of the list you're only showing SHA256 cloud mining companies. No "love" for the scrypt crowd? I heard zeusminer/zeushash stopped payouts for their contracts...  ;)

EDIT: Looks like zeus does SHA256 too... Huh. Might want to check them out, they're pretty popular.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 13, 2014, 06:42:35 PM
From the looks of the list you're only showing SHA256 cloud mining companies. No "love" for the scrypt crowd?

exactly. I dont follow alt coins at all, sorry. But you can apply the same criteria yourself. IN fact I strongly encourage everyone to do their own due diligence, dont just take my word for it.

Quote
I heard zeusminer stopped payouts for their contracts...  ;)

Link?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: armedmilitia on December 13, 2014, 06:46:50 PM
Quote
Link?

No proof, this is what I saw:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=892061.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=892061.0)

Link to their official site:
https://zeushash.com/ (https://zeushash.com/)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 13, 2014, 07:23:09 PM
No proof, this is what I saw:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=892061.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=892061.0)

Interesting. Ill keep on eye on it, but for now one or two users reporting 1 day delay, its a bit early to pronounce a collapse.
edit: well its more than 1-2 users clearly, but lets not yet rule out a technical issue.

Quote
Link to their official site:
https://zeushash.com/ (https://zeushash.com/)

I know who they are, they are rated on my list:
Zeushash              1+2+3+4+5          => 5/7 = (very) suspicious


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: armedmilitia on December 13, 2014, 07:43:22 PM
I know who they are, they are rated on my list:
Zeushash              1+2+3+4+5          => 5/7 = (very) suspicious

Whoops, must have missed that! In my defense, that list is getting pretty long. Maybe we should start a wiki?  :D



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: darkangel11 on December 13, 2014, 08:13:46 PM
There is no chance to positively verify a legit mining operation, that's the paradox.

Yes, there is!
If you show your mining address anyone can calculate how many coins you mined and how many you paid out to your clients. As long as the coins keep moving from the mining address to their clients, while the money the clients paid for shares go to a separate address, everything is fine.


Even if you have a public mining address you would have to be mining with your own miners on a pool. What if you use a hosted service elsewhere and bitcoins are being distributed among other participants and then redistributed to the shareholders minus the costs of maintenance? You would need to know not only the number of users but also the amount of shares each of them has. It cannot be solved that easily as you think.

In such case it wouldn't be their mining address. A mining address is a place where you place fresh coins not redistrubuted ones.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on December 13, 2014, 08:25:54 PM
There is no chance to positively verify a legit mining operation, that's the paradox.

Yes, there is!
If you show your mining address anyone can calculate how many coins you mined and how many you paid out to your clients. As long as the coins keep moving from the mining address to their clients, while the money the clients paid for shares go to a separate address, everything is fine.


Even if you have a public mining address you would have to be mining with your own miners on a pool. What if you use a hosted service elsewhere and bitcoins are being distributed among other participants and then redistributed to the shareholders minus the costs of maintenance? You would need to know not only the number of users but also the amount of shares each of them has. It cannot be solved that easily as you think.

In such case it wouldn't be their mining address. A mining address is a place where you place fresh coins not redistrubuted ones.

Exactly. And to do this you would need to have such control over your miners that you could mine to your address and probably pool directly which is not always the case. Some operations may be using hosted miners by a third party and get their profits distributed from the 'second hand'. Moreover mining operations need liquidity, they buy and sell hashing power outside their platform. This is just normal practice so you may see dodgy things under the address. Therefore I think proper verification is not that straight forward ;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 13, 2014, 08:27:47 PM
Exactly. And to do this you would need to have such control over your miners that you could mine to your address and probably pool directly which is not always the case.

Thats the point isnt it; if you dont control the miners, then who does?
Your answer: "we cant say". It might as well be santaclaus then.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on December 13, 2014, 08:58:43 PM
Exactly. And to do this you would need to have such control over your miners that you could mine to your address and probably pool directly which is not always the case.

Thats the point isnt it; if you dont control the miners, then who does?
Your answer: "we cant say". It might as well be santaclaus then.

Well.... we basically do not care. We use hosted miners and we do not care where they mine. Perhaps we will change that as indeed it is a good argument for the sake of the credibility if it is questioned.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: creuz on December 13, 2014, 10:25:11 PM
Your answer: "we cant say". It might as well be santaclaus then.

SantaClaus Mining
Lifetime contract
Best mining hardware from secret Nazi research center.
Our miners were sent to dark side of the moon (minus 153 °C) by cheapest Russian launchers.

So only for bitcointalk members, here is our limited offer :

10 TH for only 1 BTC.
Hourly payout.
+1800% a year profit.

For 24h only. Hurry Up !


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on December 13, 2014, 10:31:25 PM
looks legit! ;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: creuz on December 13, 2014, 10:40:10 PM
looks legit! ;)

To reward our 10 first customers :

If you buy more than 100 TH we offer you...

One day on a paradise island all expenses paid with one of the best friends of Justin Bieber ! Fantastic.



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: tmfp on December 13, 2014, 10:43:04 PM
Your answer: "we cant say". It might as well be santaclaus then.

SantaClaus Mining
Lifetime contract
Best mining hardware from secret Nazi research center.
Our miners were sent to dark side of the moon (minus 153 °C) by cheapest Russian launchers.

So only for bitcointalk members, here is our limited offer :

10 TH for only 1 BTC.
Hourly payout.
+1800% a year profit.

For 24h only. Hurry Up !


I vouch for SantaClaus Mining as very dependable and honest operation. I invested 8 satoshis last Christmas in special invitation and have been paid regular every twelve minutes, now ROI'd 64 times and have 300 PH/s and my own hydropower plant.
DO NOT LISTEN TO FUD from sick making so called scambusters who are all investors in GRINCH Mining cowboy ponzi scheme competition.

I BELIEVE IN FATHER CHRISTMAS.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 13, 2014, 10:49:34 PM
Several operators so far have offered to,  and/or sent me 'privileged' information.
When asked, I will respect confidentiality but I  refuse to sign NDA's and I want to be clear that I base my assessments solely on publicly available information.

There is a very good reason for that, I want everyone to be able to  (and do)  their own due diligence and I dont want anyone to feel they have to trust me or my assessment of whatever 'secret' information I might be given. Whatever Im told or given in confidence will  therefore not change any rating.

If you think thats unfair, just make it public so everyone can scrutinize it. If you think that doing so might hurt your business model, then there is probably something wrong with your business model.



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: creuz on December 13, 2014, 11:11:31 PM
Several operators so far have offered to,  and/or sent me 'privileged' information.
When asked, I will respect confidentiality but I  refuse to sign NDA's and I want to be clear that I base my assessments solely on publicly available information.

There is a very good reason for that, I want everyone to be able to  (and do)  their own due diligence and I dont want anyone to feel they have to trust me or my assessment of whatever 'secret' information I might be given. Whatever Im told or given in confidence will  therefore not change any rating.

If you think thats unfair, just make it public so everyone can scrutinize it. If you think that doing so might hurt your business model, then there is probably something wrong with your business model.



OK, we have nothing to hide.

Our control center
http://cf.ydcdn.net/1.0.1.26/images/computer/_WARROOM.GIF

Client support staff daily briefing :
http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/wwno/files/styles/medium/public/201411/IMG_0109.JPG

Our datacenter (can't show more, its a critical part of our business) :
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/moon-colony.jpg

Inside :
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ0h3WN9VScLZq8x-2FW1ix_vof0v43mHiEuOBGOQInK5gRA7EM1g



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: creuz on December 13, 2014, 11:44:02 PM
CheapCheap Mining

Our miners don't use electricity so lowest fees. Actually we only employ real humans who manually compute hashes. Only young calculus genius from best third world universities work for us.

Our miners are hackproof.

We are able to switch to most profitable algorithm at anytime.

Our ecological footprint is very low. The datacenter is protected by north korean military commandos.

You can pay with dollar, food, or technological secret.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on December 14, 2014, 12:26:25 AM
Several operators so far have offered to,  and/or sent me 'privileged' information.
When asked, I will respect confidentiality but I  refuse to sign NDA's and I want to be clear that I base my assessments solely on publicly available information.

There is a very good reason for that, I want everyone to be able to  (and do)  their own due diligence and I dont want anyone to feel they have to trust me or my assessment of whatever 'secret' information I might be given. Whatever Im told or given in confidence will  therefore not change any rating.

If you think thats unfair, just make it public so everyone can scrutinize it. If you think that doing so might hurt your business model, then there is probably something wrong with your business model.
Actually there is nothing wrong with our business model. We just do not want to disclose it for the reasons I explained to you in private as we just do not have any interest in it. I did not ask you to judge our business model but to confirm if we are mining/possess the hashing power and do not do fractional mining. If you were in this business you would understand that given recent drop in diff dynamics that has occured almost two months ago and subsequent drop in diff would make it very difficult for fractional mining business to survive. We have even reduced our maintenance fees by 25% on 01 Dec and we plan to reduce them further.
It seems that you did not want to look on the evidence I was ready to disclose and that's the end of it. Please accept that not all legit businesses like ours will do as you please.


I think the DC above is from Space 1999 ;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 14, 2014, 11:10:07 AM
Ive been getting several requests for a tip jar. I didnt want to do this to avoid the impression I'm doing this for personal gain.
But since the ponzi pushers turned that argument around by saying it proves Im shilling for whatever company complies with my criteria, I might as well post an address.

15YNTMoAzTCve64rveEka75qCeJMZpmDCx

Anything I receive on that address will be used to further this cause, like doing signature campaigns to raise awareness.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on December 14, 2014, 11:26:23 AM
Thanks Puppet ;)

Why hashie Gen1 is ponzi? I have asked that question before but I did not get the answer.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: pawel7777 on December 14, 2014, 12:28:48 PM
Ive been getting several requests for a tip jar. I didnt want to do this to avoid the impression I'm doing this for personal gain.
But since the ponzi pushers turned that argument around by saying it proves Im shilling for whatever company complies with my criteria, I might as well post an address.

15YNTMoAzTCve64rveEka75qCeJMZpmDCx

Anything I receive on that address will be used to further this cause, like doing signature campaigns to raise awareness.


That's a good idea. Sent you a small one. Keep up the good work!


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Muhammed Zakir on December 14, 2014, 03:07:08 PM
Quote
hashprofit.com          1+3+4+~6+7     (looking in to it, feedback welcome)

Looks like the most suspicious among all to me. But I got the most of BTC from them through promo sales (50% discounts!) and refferals. They gave me three times more Khs for free than I bought from them on sale. Two weeks ago, I removed all referrals links from my signature on all forums which I use, but I still continue to receive free Khs from hashprofit referrals.

You may want to remove 7 from it as you can sell hashpower in Hashprofit. :)

   ~~MZ~~


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: julian071 on December 14, 2014, 08:20:23 PM
Interesting talk on cloud mining by Marco Streng, ceo of Genesis Mining:

http://bravenewcoin.com/news/marco-streng-at-bitcoin-south-bitcoin-mining-and-the-future/


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: UKBC on December 14, 2014, 11:39:52 PM
Very interesting :-)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: xhomerx10 on December 15, 2014, 06:42:45 AM
Has anyone done business with KnightsofTheSatoshi cloud mining?
The thread isn't very active:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=552480.0


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Glucose on December 15, 2014, 07:29:23 PM
Great post. It's good to see people taking some actions against theses ponzi scam that contribute to ruin bitcoin reputation...

I had a little ghs @ PB mining. I wish I read your post earlier :D
Second part of my investment is @ Genesis Mining.


I add your signature in my profile :)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 15, 2014, 07:34:17 PM
I add your signature in my profile :)

Congrats, you're now the proud owner of 10TH worth of Masters Cub cloudy mining :p.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Glucose on December 15, 2014, 07:39:24 PM
I add your signature in my profile :)

Congrats, you're now the proud owner of 10TH worth of Masters Cub cloudy mining :p.

Ahaha :D Thx. I hope it will 100% reinvest very well ^^


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 15, 2014, 07:44:36 PM
Has anyone done business with KnightsofTheSatoshi cloud mining?
The thread isn't very active:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=552480.0

AT first glance it looks like it might have been legit, but obsolete with that pricing.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: suman66 on December 16, 2014, 10:00:24 AM
hashprofit.com Need review about this site friends


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Muhammed Zakir on December 16, 2014, 05:44:28 PM
hashprofit.com Need review about this site friends

Their support is very fast. I am goint to hit ROI very soon becausr of the low price. But like PBMINING they might ran away. Invest at your own risk and don't invest more than you can loose. :)

@Puppet : I didn't understand about this 10 TH. Can you please elaborate? Thanks! :)

   ~~MZ~~


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cloverme on December 16, 2014, 07:21:08 PM
Quote
Link?

No proof, this is what I saw:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=892061.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=892061.0)

Link to their official site:
https://zeushash.com/ (https://zeushash.com/)

Zeus is still paying out... There seems to be a campaign war breaking out between Gaw and Zeus. I think some of the supporters are starting to spread some disinformation.  Hard to tell though with all the cross posting.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Rjb82 on December 16, 2014, 08:07:33 PM
Thanks Puppet ;)

Why hashie Gen1 is ponzi? I have asked that question before but I did not get the answer.

i'd be curious to know this also. So one part of the site is probably a ponzi, but the latest part isnt... doesnt really make sense.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on December 16, 2014, 08:13:28 PM
Seems that another drop in diff is underway. Hard days for ponzi schemes, higher yield for decent  mining companies ;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 16, 2014, 08:17:38 PM
Questions about hashie are (hopefully) answered here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=878387.msg9698863#msg9698863

To understand the 10TH, have a look here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=888864

Regarding hashprofit, is there something that applies to my criteria that is not visible on the site (without account) ?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jaybow on December 16, 2014, 09:34:13 PM
And the next one pops up...

My guess it's a ponzi, what do you think?

www.bitrush.com


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: raskul on December 16, 2014, 09:41:33 PM
And the next one pops up...

My guess it's a ponzi, what do you think?

www.bitrush.com


do I need to click it to find out?
 :D


ponzi.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 16, 2014, 09:52:50 PM
They seem trustworthy to me. It says so on their website, so it must be true:

Why trust us?
Bitrush provides the most reliable way to mine bitcoins from anywhere in the world. Through years of experience in financial markets and data mining, we have created the ideal way to mine bitcoin.

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Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jaybow on December 16, 2014, 10:09:00 PM
And the next one pops up...

My guess it's a ponzi, what do you think?

www.bitrush.com


do I need to click it to find out?
 :D


ponzi.

Sorry, didn't want you to have to click. Just curious what you think. I'm trying to learn from you guys, and training my gut feelings...

Sooooo....

Let's add them to the list!


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 16, 2014, 10:09:44 PM
already added


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jaybow on December 16, 2014, 10:31:52 PM
already added

Thanks! Hope this thread will stop some people throwing money at these scams...


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: TheIZS on December 16, 2014, 10:52:21 PM
So Puppet I have to ask how you can keep GAW in the "legit" category while listing Bitcoincloudservices as a definite Ponzi?
BCS doesn't even try to hold any BTC they pay directly into any wallet I specify.
I like the idea, BUT your promotion of one site that at the moment is sooooooooo clearly shady as shady gets, I really can't seriously consider the information your presenting as even starting to be valid. How about Hashie? Is it for real or not? 

More currency on your list before I can take this seriously.

Great idea but poor execution. 


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: raskul on December 16, 2014, 10:56:43 PM
GAW are mining, whether you like it or not.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on December 16, 2014, 10:59:25 PM
Questions about hashie are (hopefully) answered here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=878387.msg9698863#msg9698863

To understand the 10TH, have a look here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=888864

Regarding hashprofit, is there something that applies to my criteria that is not visible on the site (without account) ?

I think it is a conspiracy theory in relation to this hashie/amhash/asicminer thing. but this gen1 I agree they may do or were doing fractional mining however I cannot see how this may pay them out now given dropping diff. perhaps they have transferred the incentives from fractional some 2 months ago and invested into the real hardware with amhash. then stopped/suspended selling gen1. or do they still sell it?

edit: they do. It is more expensive than amhash and has higher maintenance fees. This confirms it is fractional mining.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 16, 2014, 10:59:40 PM
So Puppet I have to ask how you can keep GAW in the "legit" category

It isnt. And keep in mind IM only judging the cloudmining, not their paycoin/cashtaker/whatever nonsense. It does score less points because it has some provable hashrate, antminer endorsement and we know who they are. Which is more than you can say of:

Quote
while listing Bitcoincloudservices as a definite Ponzi?

Because it is, according to the criteria Im using. Which one's of those do you think, do not apply?

Quote
BCS doesn't even try to hold any BTC they pay directly into any wallet I specify.

You mean they do not hold the BTC you paid for the contract? Or you mean they pay out a fraction of that on a regular basis, just like every ponzi until it no longer does?

Quote
I like the idea, BUT your promotion of one site that at the moment is sooooooooo clearly shady as shady gets

Which one would that be?

Quote
How about Hashie? Is it for real or not?  

Its been discussed about a dozen times now, just read.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: TheIZS on December 16, 2014, 11:16:10 PM
Sorry man you need to reassess the criteria if those are the results.

I was referring to GAW, they have never proven their hash power. That is the issue they most consistently dodge.

I have already made more than I put in at BCS.
The payout does the one thing that says it is actual mining, it fluctuates.

Again I really like the idea, but you're giving gold stars to shady operators, and black eyes to companies who are actually
holding up their end of the contract they sold.

I think your criteria needs to be looked at more closely, or you're applying them too loosely. 


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cloverme on December 16, 2014, 11:22:54 PM
GAW are mining, whether you like it or not.

Agreed, I was highly skeptical of GAW about 2 months ago, but I've seen enough from them to know they are mining in some way/shape/form.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 16, 2014, 11:24:35 PM
Sorry man you need to reassess the criteria if those are the results.

Im a man of science, I dont change my criteria to achieve some preconceived conclusion, I go where the evidence leads me.

Quote
I was referring to GAW, they have never proven their hash power. That is the issue they most consistently dodge.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=827552.msg9378239#msg9378239
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/gawminers-hashlet-sells-bitcoin-sales-per-day-overstock/

They could be doing fractional reserve mining for sure, but they have a non trivial amount of hashpower.

Quote
I have already made more than I put in at BCS.
The payout does the one thing that says it is actual mining, it fluctuates.

Making a profit proves nothing, early pbmining (/pirate/bttrader/etc/) investors also made profits. All that proves is that the ponzi is relatively successful. I could tell you that by looking at this too:

https://blockchain.info/charts/received-per-day?address=1BTCPayb5AdF8fSsR7oews2PpuVpRtamk6

As for the fluctuating payouts; how is that convincing evidence? Show me the transactions and the block generation they originate from, and I might believe they do any mining at all.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: bitgeek on December 17, 2014, 02:04:17 AM
@Puppet

A honest answer, I wish in the future GAW can disprove some of the points given them in this thread.

@TheIZS

Drop it hater, anyone can check your posts and see you made this account to attack GAW, you're not posting anything besides accusations.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 17, 2014, 10:39:14 AM
Hashprofit seems more and more reliable? Movies on their website with pictures of there farm and it was a sponsor of a great bitcoin conference in russia. Someone been their and saw something of them? Speaked with someone?

Sponsorship is not and will never be a criterion. Just remember BT Trader sponsored all kinds of bitcoin events as well.

The video's on their site do count as something, its just that the only segment that shows any relevant capacity lasts about half a second, and the text reads 'Total power is near 350-400 MHs". Meanwhile the stats on their site show over 5000 MHs.

Oh, and I had to delete your post, no (ponzi) mining referral links allowed in this thread.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: avw1982 on December 17, 2014, 10:43:22 AM
Hashprofit seems more and more reliable? Movies on their website with pictures of there farm and it was a sponsor of a great bitcoin conference in russia. Someone been their and saw something of them? Speaked with someone?

Sponsorship is not and will never be a criterion. Just remember BT Trader sponsored all kinds of bitcoin events as well.

The video's on their site do count as something, its just that the only segment that shows any relevant capacity lasts about half a second, and the text reads 'Total power is near 350-400 MHs". Meanwhile the stats on their site show over 5000 MHs.

Oh, and I had to delete your post, no (ponzi) mining referral links allowed in this thread.

Ok i have deleted cointellect. Just read some about them. Is HP allowed?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Grinder on December 17, 2014, 12:40:53 PM
Just looked at the video on the Hashprofit site, and I think the part that's supposed to show a large hall of miners looks like a badly manipulated image that has been filmed. Except for the first couple of rows all the cables in each level hangs exactly the same way, the curly vertical cable curls in the exact same way, and the rows don't line up in a way that seems natural.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 17, 2014, 12:49:15 PM

You mean this part ?

http://i.imgur.com/ksBqU8b.png

Its not a photo, you can clearly see the fans spinning and the camera position changes. If its fake, its pretty well done.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Grinder on December 17, 2014, 01:02:33 PM
Its not a photo, you can clearly see the fans spinning and the camera position changes. If its fake, its pretty well done.
Only the first couple of vertical rows (not sure what it's called in English) have fans. Pause it just before the video of the room ends and look at the rest. It's not very hard to make a video that joins a video and a picture like this if you have the right software.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 17, 2014, 01:10:23 PM
Nah, what you see I think is just the border of the transition effect. You can see the same thing around the 12 second mark.
Im not saying it couldnt have been doctored, but it looks fairly convincing to me. Just not all that impressive, I dont think there could be more than 100 GPU's in that video, so likely less than 100MH. Compared to the 5200+ they claim to own.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Grinder on December 17, 2014, 01:30:22 PM
Nah, what you see I think is just the border of the transition effect.
You have to pause it just before the transition begins. The two first vertical racks of miners look completely individual in their setup (cables, how the miners are arranged and pretty much everything else), but from the third they look completely identical.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Grinder on December 17, 2014, 01:52:05 PM
I have pointed out some of the things that repeat here:

https://i.imgur.com/KmSXJkh.png


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: devthedev on December 17, 2014, 02:24:28 PM
Its not a photo, you can clearly see the fans spinning and the camera position changes. If its fake, its pretty well done.
Only the first couple of vertical rows (not sure what it's called in English) have fans. Pause it just before the video of the room ends and look at the rest. It's not very hard to make a video that joins a video and a picture like this if you have the right software.

Yeah, I've been a motion designer for about two years, needless to say that shot's not legit.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: avw1982 on December 17, 2014, 02:29:53 PM
There is a russian topic: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=674096.20. Some russians here who can translate what they are telling.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ChrisCh on December 17, 2014, 03:03:08 PM
https://cointellect.com/download/advanced what do you think about that?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: avw1982 on December 17, 2014, 03:15:46 PM
https://cointellect.com/download/advanced what do you think about that?

CoIntellect.com       1+2+3+4+5+6+7++    => 7/7 = Ponzi (+ requiring likely malware/wallet stealing software)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 17, 2014, 03:34:09 PM
I have pointed out some of the things that repeat here:

https://i.imgur.com/KmSXJkh.png

You're right, that does look fishy.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: avw1982 on December 17, 2014, 03:45:44 PM
I have pointed out some of the things that repeat here:

https://i.imgur.com/KmSXJkh.png

You're right, that does look fishy.

It's a animated impression. We should ask for real pictures.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cyberpinoy on December 17, 2014, 03:53:50 PM
Just so you know Eobot is not a ponzi scam as per your system, they actually took buying GHS off the market a couple of months ago for 3 or 4 weeks because they did not have the equipment to meet the purchases from its members. So for 3 or 4 weeks maybe even 5 (I know it was a while) we were not able to buy any GHS cloud.

Please tell me of all these predictions how many of them are you actually a real member of for more than 3 months at a time. You say CEX is not a scam, but to real people a scam is anything that is decieptful in thier actions of what they provide. CEX is an absolute scam, they lie and fiddle numbers, they do not give the proper values of your mining equipment, they payout less than 50 % of what you mine and their fees on thier cloud is just a calculated scam.

So tell me sir, of all of these sites you claim are Ponzi scams how many fo them are you actually a true enlisted member of and have actually put in BTC to truly test your system?

A system based upon opinion and guess work is no system to trust. Alth your list could be usefull precautions, what about the sites like Eobot who have fallen in your scam section that are not. Do you not worry about slander charges sir?

Because from what I read I gathered altho a site may be a scam, they all are! BUT if you get in early, you can, and will make your money back and then some until they fold under. So basically (to me) what you are saying is to assume they are all scams and just get in early to make your ROI.

It's a animated impression. We should ask for real pictures.

Anyone with Photoshop experience can see this image however they were able to use it in a video, it totally shopped. You can see the angle of the racks exactly same crooked angles all the way down thru, the same exact machines in the same exact position on every rack and the things he pointed out by circling them. Its amazing how far people will go to get their scam done. I mean what is it they are thinking , ok lets spend 150 BTC to conjure up this scam and when we get 160 we can close it down. I mean seriously what kind of criminals do we have today that are so criminal to put this much work into a scam, why not just take the time and do it for real? You know?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 17, 2014, 04:00:49 PM
Just so you know Eobot is not a ponzi scam as per your system, they actually took buying GHS off the market a couple of months ago for 3 or 4 weeks because they did not have the equipment to meet the purchases from its members. So for 3 or 4 weeks maybe even 5 (I know it was a while) we were not able to buy any GHS cloud.

So? Its a classic trick, just about every ponzi in history did it, including pbmining, pirate, madoff,..

Quote
Please tell me of all these predictions how many of them are you actually a real member of for more than 3 months at a time.


Me, real member? If you meant to ask if I invested in any of these companies: absolutely not.

Quote
ou say CEX is not a scam, but to real people a scam is anything that is decieptful in thier actions of what they provide. CEX is an absolute scam, they lie and fiddle numbers, they do not give the proper values of your mining equipment, they payout less than 50 % of what you mine and their fees on thier cloud is just a calculated scam.

If you have evidence of cex.io not living up to its contractual obligations, by all means post it. But since you are the guy who claims to be able to make a huge profit mining with 1J/GH dragon miners and $0.38/KWH, Im not going to take your word for it without checking the numbers myself.

Quote
So tell me sir, of all of these sites you claim are Ponzi scams how many fo them are you actually a true enlisted member of and have actually put in BTC to truly test your system?

Ive never invested a satoshi in cloudmining, and dont expect I ever will.

Quote
Do you not worry about slander charges sir?

Nope.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cyberpinoy on December 17, 2014, 04:14:19 PM
Abiding by bullshit policy they wrote purposely to mislead its members is a SCAM DAAAH. they meet their contracts so people like you will say "bal bla bla if you can show me where they have not met their contractual BLA BLA BLA" I can show you where they are making more than their miners, I can show you where buying thier cloud causes you to lose BTC rather than gain it, I can show you where their reported hashrates of your machines are more than 10% difference usually expected, I can show you where they are paying us only 50% of our work. That SIR is a scam company!!!! ANd FYI your contractual agreement is bullshit they base their contractual agreement on a base of X amount of dollars per GHS for maintenance fees yet charge us per share submitted, there is your discrepancy, . If they only charge X amount of dollars per GHS why do i get charged on every lock I mine, should not the Fees be taken at the beginning of every month before they are accrued to be more fair? then at the end of the month the amount of BTC you have left over is your profit after the fees? And to be honest if I wanted to take the time I could disprove their what is it 10 cents per GHS, that is a flat our lie, i get charged well over 10 cents per GHS in fees every month. its more like 10 cents per GHS per block solved

Assumptions made on opinion and not experience are not very valuable, they are just another opinion. and that is it. What new people need are real experiences, people who are members and have been either screwed or have good experiences, ROI is all that is important, at this stage of the game no one is a forever, so as long as people can at least make their money back and make a profit that is what we are stuck with. Until a good person like me who is honest and wants a business that will progress and be here for a while opens a real cloud mining site, or maybe even you (alktho I dont like your opinion it does not make you a dishonest business man) if people like us who are honest and want to progress forward with the help of others and grow as a team, until we make a real site, all we have are hopes of getting an ROI as fast as possible and keep flipping it.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 17, 2014, 04:40:06 PM
I can show you where they are making more than their miners,

So you are accusing them of making a profit? Is by your definition Amazon a "scam company" because they charge more than it costs them?

Quote
I cna show you where buying thie cloud causes you to lose BTC rather than gain it, I can show you where their reported hashrates of your machines are more than 10% + or _ minus,

Im pretty sure you cant, and that you are unable to distinguish between pool luck and hashrate variation.

Quote
I can show you where they are payng us onlky 50% of our work. That SIR is a scam company!!!!

Again, I strongly suspect you dont understand pool luck, but prove me wrong.

Quote
ANd FYI your contractual agreement is bullshit they base their contractual agreement on a base of X amount of dollars per GHS for maintenance fees yet charge us per share submitted, there is your discrepancy,  If they only charge X amount of dollars per GHS why do i get charged on every lock I mine, should not the Fees be taken at the beginning of every month before they are accrued to be more fair?

No, because you can sell your contract at any time, why would it be fair to have to pay fees for the entire month on the first day of that month? Moreover, throughout the month the price of bitcoin can vary pretty wildly.. If BTC exchange rate doubled in the course of a month, Im sure you would accuse them of scamming if they charged you based on the exchange rate of the beginning of the month. So if cex.io does that calculation every block, I have no problems with that as long as the average works out. If it does not, then prove it.

Quote
then at the end of the month the amount of BTC you have left over is your profit after the fees? And to be honest if I wanted to take the time I could disprove their what is it 10 cents per GHS, that is a flat our lie, i get charged well over 10 cents per GHS in fees every month. its more like 10 cents per GHS per block solved

Stop ranting and show us the numbers. Cex.io has many thousands of users and a profitable business model that doesnt require skimming or scamming. If what you say is true, Im fairly certain Id have seen the evidence from someone able to do basic arithmetic.

Thing is, like many you seem mad at cex.io because you didnt make a profit. and/or their prices are absurd The same goes for cryptx users. In both cases I went out of my way to show people those prices were insane and predicted what would happen, but also in both cases these companies to my knowledge have provided exactly what they promised, which is more than will be said from the majority of companies on my list.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Skatter on December 17, 2014, 06:54:53 PM
awesome thread to be honest.
at the end of the day "do your Own research"


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: guillermemo on December 17, 2014, 07:48:23 PM
Awesome,
I've invested on bitcoincloudservices.com & ltcgear.com
By now, all im hoping is just to not get screwed at 100% of my investment.
But As an investor. We all have to know that you would never invest what you can't afford to lose...


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Shogen on December 17, 2014, 07:55:25 PM
awesome thread to be honest.
at the end of the day "do your Own research"

Or at least, you could check others' research like this thread before buying a contract to reduce your chance of getting scammed.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on December 17, 2014, 08:12:32 PM
Well... looks better than NCSI ! Nice to start a day with this thread. Good job with hashprofit ;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: s3v3nh4cks on December 17, 2014, 08:18:17 PM
@puppet Personally, I would ask you to re-evaluate GAW/Zenminer I personally have ROI'd 3 times from them, withdrew my initial investment, and expect to see a Profit of more than 20k when Paycoin hits the major markets/Paybase. How is this Questionable?? or not legit?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 17, 2014, 08:29:45 PM
@puppet Personally, I would ask you to re-evaluate GAW/Zenminer I personally have ROI'd 3 times from them, withdrew my initial investment, and expect to see a Profit of more than 2-k when Paycoin hits the major markets/Paybase. How is this Questionable?? or not legit?

Firstly and for the umpth time, early investor profit ≠ proof  of legitimacy. If it where, Pirate and Madoff wouldnt be in jail.

Secondly, Ive defined my criteria based on my experience here, then I applied them as best as I could and without prejudice. If I misapplied any, point it out, Im human I can make mistakes. But if not, accept the outcome. BTW, if anything, the outcome for GAW is pretty favorable because Im only looking at their cloudmining contracts. If I looked at the bigger picture, it has ponzi and delusion written all over it. Here is a good summary written by eigntycylinders: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=857670.msg9868670#msg9868670








Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cyberpinoy on December 17, 2014, 08:32:47 PM
I can show you where they are making more than their miners,

So you are accusing them of making a profit? Is by your definition Amazon a "scam company" because they charge more than it costs them?

Quote
I cna show you where buying thie cloud causes you to lose BTC rather than gain it, I can show you where their reported hashrates of your machines are more than 10% + or _ minus,

Im pretty sure you cant, and that you are unable to distinguish between pool luck and hashrate variation.

Quote
I can show you where they are payng us onlky 50% of our work. That SIR is a scam company!!!!

Again, I strongly suspect you dont understand pool luck, but prove me wrong.

Quote
ANd FYI your contractual agreement is bullshit they base their contractual agreement on a base of X amount of dollars per GHS for maintenance fees yet charge us per share submitted, there is your discrepancy,  If they only charge X amount of dollars per GHS why do i get charged on every lock I mine, should not the Fees be taken at the beginning of every month before they are accrued to be more fair?

No, because you can sell your contract at any time, why would it be fair to have to pay fees for the entire month on the first day of that month? Moreover, throughout the month the price of bitcoin can vary pretty wildly.. If BTC exchange rate doubled in the course of a month, Im sure you would accuse them of scamming if they charged you based on the exchange rate of the beginning of the month. So if cex.io does that calculation every block, I have no problems with that as long as the average works out. If it does not, then prove it.

Quote
then at the end of the month the amount of BTC you have left over is your profit after the fees? And to be honest if I wanted to take the time I could disprove their what is it 10 cents per GHS, that is a flat our lie, i get charged well over 10 cents per GHS in fees every month. its more like 10 cents per GHS per block solved

Stop ranting and show us the numbers. Cex.io has many thousands of users and a profitable business model that doesnt require skimming or scamming. If what you say is true, Im fairly certain Id have seen the evidence from someone able to do basic arithmetic.

Thing is, like many you seem mad at cex.io because you didnt make a profit. and/or their prices are absurd The same goes for cryptx users. In both cases I went out of my way to show people those prices were insane and predicted what would happen, but also in both cases these companies to my knowledge have provided exactly what they promised, which is more than will be said from the majority of companies on my list.


No by miners I was talking about the people who pay them for cloud and the ones who point their machines there, So what is your excuse for them reporting sometimes 20 to 50 percent of the rates of the machines pointed at their pool, what can you pull out of your ass to protect them about that? let em guess Variance or wait maybe pool luck, or I bet its my machines ahuh anything but CEX of course.

Ye i actually can prove this part and here is your proof. of how you buy Cloud mining and lose money on cex.io this is pulled directly from my account there.

2014-12-13 11:22:30   -0.00010634 BTC   -0.00007886    MAINTENANCE   -   Shares 216576 , Cost: -0.00010634
2014-12-13 11:22:30    0.00005109 BTC   0.00002748    MINING   -   Block #334075, Reward: 0.00005109

2014-12-13 07:09:50   -0.00007693 BTC   -0.00010046    MAINTENANCE   -   Shares 156672 , Cost: -0.00007693
2014-12-13 07:09:50    0.00005014 BTC   -0.00002353    MINING   -   Block #334049, Reward: 0.00005014

2014-12-13 05:20:47   -0.00011816 BTC   -0.00007367    MAINTENANCE   -   Shares 240640 , Cost: -0.00011816
2014-12-13 05:20:47    0.00004888 BTC   0.00004449    MINING   -   Block #334038, Reward: 0.00004888

2014-12-13 02:36:42   -0.00006185 BTC   -0.00000439    MAINTENANCE   -   Shares 125952 , Cost: -0.00006185
2014-12-13 02:36:42    0.00004143 BTC   0.00005746    MINING   -   Block #334031, Reward: 0.00004143

This is just a few blocks do you need more how about different sized hashrates o their cloud. how much do you need. do you see the rewards are lower than the fees. THIS IS NOT EVER POSSIBLE UNLESS YOUR RIPPING PEOPLE OFF some of them have fees that are doube and truiple what the reward was OMG SCAM!!!


I understand pool luck I am not stupid, You have your head sofar up CEX.ios ass you cant see the truth if it smacked you i the lips, thats not my problem its yours.

Ok seriously did you even mention about something being fair HOW STUPID ARE YOU, what is fair about pointing 20THS at their pool and them showing we have only 3 THS pointed there for 19 hours? What is fair about them having a server problem and wasting our electricity but not reimbursing us for their problems that they got paid for. What is fair about paying them X amount of BTC for cloud mining then having fees larger than the rewards. What is fair about solving blocks then not paying out on thsoe blocks until we make suh a huge fuss they have no choice, what is fair about hiding blocks that we solve?  Please tell me anything that is fair about CEX.io that is not outlandishly a fabrication in your mind that is so far up their ass?
the proof you desire is everywhere you choose not to believe it. I am not the only one complaining, and others are noticing their bullshit too they dropped 10 PHS this past month in hardware miners pointing their machines at them.

Your problem is, like a lot of wannabe know it alls in the bitcoin industry, you have no equipment, you do not run true tests, you have a lot to say and a huge opinion backed up  by nothing, no real work involved, no real machines you test with, no real accounts just your opinion.

You are a waste of our time, and a waste of space, Sorry to be blunt but you sir piss me off.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cloverme on December 17, 2014, 08:42:47 PM
@puppet Personally, I would ask you to re-evaluate GAW/Zenminer I personally have ROI'd 3 times from them, withdrew my initial investment, and expect to see a Profit of more than 2-k when Paycoin hits the major markets/Paybase. How is this Questionable?? or not legit?

Firstly and for the umpth time, early investor profit ≠ proof  of legitimacy. If it where, Pirate and Madoff wouldnt be in jail.

Secondly, Ive defined my criteria based on my experience here, then I applied them as best as I could and without prejudice. If I misapplied any, point it out, Im human I can make mistakes. But if not, accept the outcome. BTW, if anything, the outcome for GAW is pretty favorable because Im only looking at their cloudmining contracts. If I looked at the bigger picture, it has ponzi and delusion written all over it. Here is a good summary written by eigntycylinders: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=857670.msg9868670#msg9868670

He did have a very good article on GAW, but I like your rating system because you're assigning a value on a risk scale. As with everything else, there's a lot of supposition and conjecture in all the threads with accusations and what not and no one is sure what to believe. Your rating system cuts to the chase, so I think it's the closest thing to provide a reasonable assessment of the providers.  If the providers don't agree with your rating, they can either provide the proof publicly in the areas you cite as risk and let the investors decide what to believe or not to believe.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 17, 2014, 09:08:15 PM
Ye i actually can prove this part and here is your proof. of how you buy Cloud mining and lose money on cex.io this is pulled directly from my account there.

2014-12-13 11:22:30   -0.00010634 BTC   -0.00007886    MAINTENANCE   -   Shares 216576 , Cost: -0.00010634
2014-12-13 11:22:30    0.00005109 BTC   0.00002748    MINING   -   Block #334075, Reward: 0.00005109

2014-12-13 07:09:50   -0.00007693 BTC   -0.00010046    MAINTENANCE   -   Shares 156672 , Cost: -0.00007693
2014-12-13 07:09:50    0.00005014 BTC   -0.00002353    MINING   -   Block #334049, Reward: 0.00005014

2014-12-13 05:20:47   -0.00011816 BTC   -0.00007367    MAINTENANCE   -   Shares 240640 , Cost: -0.00011816
2014-12-13 05:20:47    0.00004888 BTC   0.00004449    MINING   -   Block #334038, Reward: 0.00004888

2014-12-13 02:36:42   -0.00006185 BTC   -0.00000439    MAINTENANCE   -   Shares 125952 , Cost: -0.00006185
2014-12-13 02:36:42    0.00004143 BTC   0.00005746    MINING   -   Block #334031, Reward: 0.00004143

This is just a few blocks do you need more how about different sized hashrates o their cloud. how much do you need. do you see the rewards are lower than the fees. THIS IS NOT EVER POSSIBLE UNLESS YOUR RIPPING PEOPLE OFF some of them have fees that are doube and truiple what the reward was OMG SCAM!!!

Dude.. do you see the "shares" count? Thats how long it took the pool to find the block. To use a highly technical term: "luck".
cex.io fees are defined in dollars and per GH per month. From the above its clear those fees are calculated per block on each block. If a block took twice as long as average, you'd expect to pay twice as many on fees. If a block takes half the average time, you'd expect to see half the average fee. Reward remains the same (ignoring variations in transaction fees), and therefore long unlucky blocks will yield a negative return, short, lucky blocks will yield a positive return. This is completely normal.

What could indicate fraud is if the average length is statistically (very) unlikely. But its not according to the man who should know:
http://organofcorti.blogspot.be/2014/12/december-7th-2014-weekly-bitcoin_10.html
http://organofcorti.blogspot.be/2014/12/december-14th-2014-bitcoin-mining-pool.html

An unlucky week, but a CDF of 88% is completely within the expected range. Or do you think slush (72%) and bitminter (78%) and eligius (77%) are also scamming and even more than cex ?

Here is the thing: if organofcorti tells me cex.io numbers dont add up, I wont hesitate for a second to change my view, but when someone who doesnt understand the first thing about this, hasnt even realized his dragon miners are costing him a fortune because you cant do a long division, if someone like that makes gratuitous  claims, I will gladly ignore that.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ChrisCh on December 17, 2014, 09:10:16 PM
i wanted to point out something from inside cointellect update news

"Equipment Update

 

For those unaware, we placed an order with the high efficiency miner manufacturer Zeus back in September. This order is still on track for delivery during December. As such, we would suggest waiting until mid-December before making any large contract or hardware purchases. We expect to have plenty of units in stock."


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: s3v3nh4cks on December 17, 2014, 09:27:09 PM
@puppet Personally, I would ask you to re-evaluate GAW/Zenminer I personally have ROI'd 3 times from them, withdrew my initial investment, and expect to see a Profit of more than 2-k when Paycoin hits the major markets/Paybase. How is this Questionable?? or not legit?

Firstly and for the umpth time, early investor profit ≠ proof  of legitimacy. If it where, Pirate and Madoff wouldnt be in jail.

Secondly, Ive defined my criteria based on my experience here, then I applied them as best as I could and without prejudice. If I misapplied any, point it out, Im human I can make mistakes. But if not, accept the outcome. BTW, if anything, the outcome for GAW is pretty favorable because Im only looking at their cloudmining contracts. If I looked at the bigger picture, it has ponzi and delusion written all over it. Here is a good summary written by eigntycylinders: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=857670.msg9868670#msg9868670








You seem to be getting offended, I just ask that you re-evaluate.  I am not a Fan Boi for just GAW, I invest with the intentions of making long term profits. What do you consider Early investors? I was not there from the beginning, just within past 3 months, so I missed out on the Extremely Profitable deals, and yet I am still very happy. I am more looking for profits based on the Paycoin PoS factor as it is long term.

Thanks, and again I am not saying your info is not accurate, just my 2 cents


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Ghai on December 17, 2014, 09:51:52 PM
Cointellect has a pool : stratum+tcp://66.55.92.73:8000. You don't have to use the miner they offer on their site, but you can point your own miner on it. They have a live-feed published of one of their datacenters a few days ago: http://dc.cointellect.com/

I can't tell you if it's all real or fake, I don't understand their business model (it's way better than any other cloudhashing company), but I know quite a lot of people that are actually making profit there.

I was wondering if you really try to talk with people of these companies on phone and try to get the information you need or that you only decide if it's a ponzi or not based on what you see on their sites or rumors you heard.

Btw Genesis Mining might be legit, but is absolutely not profitable.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 17, 2014, 10:15:50 PM
Cointellect has a pool : stratum+tcp://66.55.92.73:8000. You don't have to use the miner they offer on their site, but you can point your own miner on it. They have a live-feed published of one of their datacenters a few days ago: http://dc.cointellect.com/

That live feed is actually neat (Im not being cynical). Just a shame I cant tell if those are file servers in those cabinets or miners.
At least they have some hardware apparently. Are there no pictures?

The pool IP doesnt tell me anything though. Id need pool stats and block signatures.

Quote
I was wondering if you really try to talk with people of these companies on phone and try to get the information you need or that you only decide if it's a ponzi or not based on what you see on their sites or rumors you heard.

I dont call them, I usually do reach out to them via the forum, but as Ive explained a few times, I base myself solely on publicly available information for the very reason I want everyone to be able to double check my findings and do their own due dilligence. IOW, I shouldnt have to call them to get answers to these questions. But if there is something I missed, Im more than happy to adjust the ratings. Not sure yet if what you provided warrants that just yet.

Quote
Btw Genesis Mining might be legit, but is absolutely not profitable.

I deliberately ignore profitability questions.  A scam can easily appear as profitable as the scammer wants it to appear, thats not something that should be balanced against the fact they are a scam and may not pay a penny after x weeks. So I only try to ascertain how likely it is a given company will comply with its contract, not how (un)profitable those contracts might be.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 18, 2014, 09:15:39 AM
Added bit-x.com (thanks to mabsark for pointing it out) which have been confirmed by bitfury as being their (only) reseller - for just 1PH:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=896350.0

Not sure what that implies for cex.io

Upgraded cointellect rating based on livestream and stats in contract manager.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: marcotheminer on December 18, 2014, 09:52:49 AM
Added bit-x.com (thanks to mabsark for pointing it out) which have been confirmed by bitfury as being their (only) reseller - for just 1PH:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=896350.0

Not sure what that implies for cex.io

Upgraded cointellect rating based on livestream and stats in contract manager.

Why do they have the number 4 alongside their name? They state that have a maximum of 1PH at the moment no?

Curious as to why it would mean anything to cex.io?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: syncsam on December 18, 2014, 09:53:44 AM
Great thread puppet, I think more people need to read this, and your rating system is fair and makes a lot of sense

I bought into pbmining before I realised it was a ponzi, but luckily I was an early bird so I made a little profit, but if I had seen this, there is no way i would have bought anything.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 18, 2014, 09:55:22 AM
Why do they have the number 4 alongside their name? They state that have a maximum of 1PH at the moment no?

Yes, but at this time, I cant see or verify how much of those 1PH they sold, so they could be doing fractional reserve mining without anyone noticing.

Quote
Curious as to why it would mean anything to cex.io?

cex.io used to be where bitfury sold their hashrate, or so I thought.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Ghai on December 18, 2014, 10:40:37 AM
Cointellect has a pool : stratum+tcp://66.55.92.73:8000. You don't have to use the miner they offer on their site, but you can point your own miner on it. They have a live-feed published of one of their datacenters a few days ago: http://dc.cointellect.com/

That live feed is actually neat (Im not being cynical). Just a shame I cant tell if those are file servers in those cabinets or miners.
At least they have some hardware apparently. Are there no pictures?

The pool IP doesnt tell me anything though. Id need pool stats and block signatures.

Quote
I was wondering if you really try to talk with people of these companies on phone and try to get the information you need or that you only decide if it's a ponzi or not based on what you see on their sites or rumors you heard.

I dont call them, I usually do reach out to them via the forum, but as Ive explained a few times, I base myself solely on publicly available information for the very reason I want everyone to be able to double check my findings and do their own due dilligence. IOW, I shouldnt have to call them to get answers to these questions. But if there is something I missed, Im more than happy to adjust the ratings. Not sure yet if what you provided warrants that just yet.

Quote
Btw Genesis Mining might be legit, but is absolutely not profitable.

I deliberately ignore profitability questions.  A scam can easily appear as profitable as the scammer wants it to appear, thats not something that should be balanced against the fact they are a scam and may not pay a penny after x weeks. So I only try to ascertain how likely it is a given company will comply with its contract, not how (un)profitable those contracts might be.

There are a few more pictures on their sites, also by night, but I don't think they give a much clearer image anyway. About profitablity, the most obvious scam imo, is the scam that promises you a x or y amount, but when you buy a contract does not pay the amounts promised. One of the worst examples I have seen is https://cloudhashing.com/.

Ponzi's are harder to prove, also because a company (any company) can go broke at any time for numerous reasons. I think sometimes the bitcoin community is a bit too focused on calling companies ponzi's. Of course transparency is much needed, but also not easy to come by on the internet. Any picture can be fake, you can't visit companies because they are on the other side of the world, cryptocurrency are quite anonymous. All reasons why it is hard to determine if you are dealing with a legit company or not. In my opinion the best way to invest in cloudhashing is always to try with small amounts of money, see if they keep promises and if the payouts don't lower too fast and reinvest after you get break-even. Always spread your risks and never invest more than you can afford to lose. Even if they are ponzi's you can still earn money that way.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Grinder on December 18, 2014, 10:48:14 AM
Puppet: you say that the intention is to let other people verify your findings, but I find that's very hard to do. There are no links to the documentation you use, so I can't verify it. For instance when I look up hashprofit.com they are behind Whoisguard, but you have not given them a 6. I suggest changing the format so that you show all numbers, but use red when you think they fail a test and a link to documentation (for instance an external web page or a message in this thread which you control and can update) if they don't. It might useful to put a link to documentation which explains why they fail a test too, sometimes.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 18, 2014, 10:53:13 AM
There are a few more pictures on their sites, also by night, but I don't think they give a much clearer image anyway. About profitablity, the most obvious scam imo, is the scam that promises you a x or y amount, but when you buy a contract does not pay the amounts promised. One of the worst examples I have seen is https://cloudhashing.com/.

I dont know what happened with cloudhashing specifically, so Im not going to comment on it, but any company that complies to my list if criteria, even if it breaks its contract, it can be held accountable. Which is more than can be said of the majority of anonymous scams listed.

Quote
Ponzi's are harder to prove, also because a company (any company) can go broke at any time for numerous reasons. I think sometimes the bitcoin community is a bit too focused on calling companies ponzi's. Of course transparency is much needed, but also not easy to come by on the internet. Any picture can be fake, you can't visit companies because they are on the other side of the world, cryptocurrency are quite anonymous. All reasons why it is hard to determine if you are dealing with a legit company or not. In my opinion the best way to invest in cloudhashing is always to try with small amounts of money, see if they keep promises and if the payouts don't lower too fast and reinvest after you get break-even. Always spread your risks and never invest more than you can afford to lose. Even if they are ponzi's you can still earn money that way.

I wholeheartedly disagree. First of all, investing in a ponzi makes you complicit in the scam, as your goal of making a profit depends on luring in new victims that will not profit. Thats not how I would want to earn a satoshi. It also funds and enables the scam, while the chances of profiting are actually extremely slim. Very few ponzi's will live long enough.

Secondly, "testing" a cloudmining service doesnt tell you anything. Every well executed scam will pay perfectly. Until the day they pull the plug.

Lastly, spreading risk only ensures you will lose money because there are far more scams than there are legitimate services.

IN short, your strategy of spreading and testing and not asking too many questions is exactly what ponzi scammers want you to do. If instead of that, people demanded credible proof before sending them a satoshi, these scams would quickly be a thing of the past.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 18, 2014, 10:58:36 AM
Puppet: you say that the intention is to let other people verify your findings, but I find that's very hard to do. There are no links to the documentation you use, so I can't verify it. For instance when I look up hashprofit.com they are behind Whoisguard, but you have not given them a 6. I suggest changing the format so that you show all numbers, but use red when you think they fail a test and a link to documentation (for instance an external web page or a message in this thread which you control and can update) if they don't. It might useful to put a link to documentation which explains why they fail a test too, sometimes.

Fair point; this started as a brief expose and quickly grew in to something thats becoming hard to maintain. I often dont remember myself why I gave a certain score, but I guess there is an upside to that, it allows or forces me or anyone to reexamine the data, which may not be a bad thing.

As for hashprofit, there is an address and matching phone number on their site:
https://hashprofit.com/en/contact/

I admit thats not exactly overwhelming evidence, which is also why the added text reads "address/identity is unconfirmed", but at least it allows anyone in cyprus to go there and verify if they exist. Ive not heard anyone try that and report there is nothing there, so I can only assume its a valid address until proven otherwise.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Grinder on December 18, 2014, 11:16:46 AM
As for hashprofit, there is an address and matching phone number on their site:
https://hashprofit.com/en/contact/
According to Google Maps there is no street with that name in the area they say it should be. There is one in an area called Mesa Geitonia 2-3 kilometers to the west, but as it stands the address seems invalid.

Edit: After searching for the street without "Avenue" Google finds it. Google street view does not seem to be available.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: krunox123 on December 18, 2014, 11:40:37 AM
Can you review Bit-x too?
https://bit-x.com/


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Ghai on December 18, 2014, 12:44:58 PM
There are a few more pictures on their sites, also by night, but I don't think they give a much clearer image anyway. About profitablity, the most obvious scam imo, is the scam that promises you a x or y amount, but when you buy a contract does not pay the amounts promised. One of the worst examples I have seen is https://cloudhashing.com/.

I dont know what happened with cloudhashing specifically, so Im not going to comment on it, but any company that complies to my list if criteria, even if it breaks its contract, it can be held accountable. Which is more than can be said of the majority of anonymous scams listed.

Quote
Ponzi's are harder to prove, also because a company (any company) can go broke at any time for numerous reasons. I think sometimes the bitcoin community is a bit too focused on calling companies ponzi's. Of course transparency is much needed, but also not easy to come by on the internet. Any picture can be fake, you can't visit companies because they are on the other side of the world, cryptocurrency are quite anonymous. All reasons why it is hard to determine if you are dealing with a legit company or not. In my opinion the best way to invest in cloudhashing is always to try with small amounts of money, see if they keep promises and if the payouts don't lower too fast and reinvest after you get break-even. Always spread your risks and never invest more than you can afford to lose. Even if they are ponzi's you can still earn money that way.

I wholeheartedly disagree. First of all, investing in a ponzi makes you complicit in the scam, as your goal of making a profit depends on luring in new victims that will not profit. Thats not how I would want to earn a satoshi. It also funds and enables the scam, while the chances of profiting are actually extremely slim. Very few ponzi's will live long enough.

Secondly, "testing" a cloudmining service doesnt tell you anything. Every well executed scam will pay perfectly. Until the day they pull the plug.

Lastly, spreading risk only ensures you will lose money because there are far more scams than there are legitimate services.

IN short, your strategy of spreading and testing and not asking too many questions is exactly what ponzi scammers want you to do. If instead of that, people demanded credible proof before sending them a satoshi, these scams would quickly be a thing of the past.

The problem though is that you have no hard evidence they are ponzi's, nor have I. A few signs are not enough. For example there are very trustworthy companies that also use referrals to advertise, most companies have secrets to protect their ideas from competitors, pictures say absolutely nothing, bad reviews can be written by competitors. 

I just treat like my normal investments, research, test and spread. Btw I do ask a lot of questions usually and I try to phone them even if they have no phonenumber published (a helpdesk is the least a company should have), I ask other people how their experiences are and read a lot . If you don't take a risk in investing, you will certainly gain nothing. The higher the risk, the more you can earn usually. That's just how investing works. Since I am already investing in many various companies over 15 years, I can tell you my profits are really not so bad and yes sometimes, you encounter some bad luck, that is why spreading is essential.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 18, 2014, 12:54:45 PM
The problem though is that you have no hard evidence they are ponzi's, nor have I.

Thats because its impossible to prove a negative. One can not prove that there is NO hardware, just like one can not prove there is no teapot orbiting the sun or that unicorns do not exist. Its trivially easy to prove the positive if its real though, so the burden of proof lays with the claimant, in this case, the cloudmining service that claims to have the hashrate they are selling.

Quote
A few signs are not enough.


I agree :). But in the other sense than you meant it. If cloudmining services offer less proof of their legitimacy than there is proof for unicorns, Id rather stake my money on the existence of unicorns.

Quote
If you don't take a risk in investing, you will certainly gain nothing.

Bitcoin by itself is already risky and potentially lucrative enough. Trying to invest bitcoins makes as little sense to me as trying to invest gold.
FWIW, Ive been around bitcoin for a fair bit longer than you appear to be; in all my time, I have seen ONE bitcoin denominated investment that overall returned substantially more BTC to its investors than it collected (AM). Well maybe two if you count satoshidice, even if that was hardly substantial. . And thats out of 100's if not 1000's of iPO's and investment vehicles and scams of all kind. Good luck spreading your risk in this minefield.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: eneloop on December 18, 2014, 01:09:31 PM
How is cointellect able to offer cc payments? (For the smaller contracts only.) Is it easy as that to get a cc processor?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: dezoel on December 18, 2014, 01:29:23 PM
please review ltcgear.com it is legit or not?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 18, 2014, 06:38:57 PM
ltcgear and bit-x are both listed. Common guys, the list is getting long, but not so long you cant find those.

In other news, looks like cloudmining.website is running on its last legs. It stopped automatic payments and enabled 100% reinvestment for everyone without even asking:

We have launched the settings page. Now you can hold your payment and re-invest automatically. Both these features have been turned on for all existing customers as well as new customers. If you want to turn them off, you can do that immediately from the settings page. Re-investment will take place everyday starting from coming Monday.

Thats pretty desperate.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Cablez on December 18, 2014, 07:11:11 PM
In other news, looks like cloudmining.website is running on its last legs. It stopped automatic payments and enabled 100% reinvestment for everyone without even asking:

We have launched the settings page. Now you can hold your payment and re-invest automatically. Both these features have been turned on for all existing customers as well as new customers. If you want to turn them off, you can do that immediately from the settings page. Re-investment will take place everyday starting from coming Monday.

Thats pretty desperate.


Haha.........classic.  They never learn.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: bitcoinmind on December 18, 2014, 08:41:10 PM
In other news, looks like cloudmining.website is running on its last legs. It stopped automatic payments and enabled 100% reinvestment for everyone without even asking:

We have launched the settings page. Now you can hold your payment and re-invest automatically. Both these features have been turned on for all existing customers as well as new customers. If you want to turn them off, you can do that immediately from the settings page. Re-investment will take place everyday starting from coming Monday.

Thats pretty desperate.


Haha.........classic.  They never learn.

What that mean? Because they put there some settings this mean that they will go bankrupt?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: sickfancy on December 18, 2014, 09:06:06 PM
"ltcgear               1+3+4+5+6          => 5/7 = (very) suspicious (info welcome) "

Who's the asic vendor that endorsed ltcgear?


This is a good informative thread.



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 18, 2014, 10:45:56 PM
"ltcgear               1+3+4+5+6          => 5/7 = (very) suspicious (info welcome) "

Who's the asic vendor that endorsed ltcgear?

I assume they endorse themselves, since they sell hardware too.




Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 18, 2014, 10:48:09 PM
What that mean? Because they put there some settings this mean that they will go bankrupt?

They wont, their customers will.
A ponzi only works as long as more money flows in than flows out. Now think what those "some settings" happen to achieve and why they were activated...

*tick* *tock* *tick* *tock*


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Zeta0S on December 19, 2014, 12:19:43 AM
Hello guys  :)

I just got 2 terrahash sinds two weeks whit pbmining, is it any good?
How do i get a payout request there?

I am new in the mining bizzz


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: syncsam on December 19, 2014, 03:24:47 AM
Hello guys  :)

I just got 2 terrahash sinds two weeks whit pbmining, is it any good?
How do i get a payout request there?

I am new in the mining bizzz

I can't tell if you are being serious or not

If you are being serious check out this thread
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=887871.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=887871.0)

or the last 20 pages of this one
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=418183.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=418183.0)

Or page 1 of this thread or search pbmining on BCT and look at the numerous thread stating pbmining is a scam

but I'm assuming you not being serious


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Zeta0S on December 19, 2014, 03:38:44 AM
Hello guys  :)

I just got 2 terrahash sinds two weeks whit pbmining, is it any good?
How do i get a payout request there?

I am new in the mining bizzz

I can't tell if you are being serious or not

If you are being serious check out this thread
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=887871.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=887871.0)

or the last 20 pages of this one
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=418183.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=418183.0)

Or page 1 of this thread or search pbmining on BCT and look at the numerous thread stating pbmining is a scam

but I'm assuming you not being serious

No i am not.
Telling people from the last two and halve months PBMining ain`t good, its even on my cloudmining page.
Got the 101 warning on there to. There is no cloudminer out there making huge roi`s.

Only the Referral guys making real money  ;)



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: syncsam on December 19, 2014, 04:03:38 AM
 ;D


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: avw1982 on December 19, 2014, 09:12:12 AM
Finally got some real pictures of HashProfit: https://forum.btcsec.com/index.php?/topic/8524-hashprofit-maining-dlia-vsekh-200-khs-na-7-dnei-besplatno/?p=179951 :D

Are pictures from there start, so back then it wasn't that big.

Lets find out where they're mining.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 19, 2014, 09:31:24 AM
Finally got some real pictures of HashProfit: https://forum.btcsec.com/index.php?/topic/8524-hashprofit-maining-dlia-vsekh-200-khs-na-7-dnei-besplatno/?p=179951 :D

Are pictures from there start, so back then it wasn't that big.

Lets find out where they're mining.

Good find. But I count 100 GPU's there. Am I right saying thats typically good for ~100MH ? Thing is, closest cached version of the website I can find is from september, 2 months later, and there they claim to own ~1400 MH:
http://web.archive.org/web/20140912014413/https://hashprofit.com/

Today its 5300 MH.

Id really need to see something more substantial tthan 100 GPU to grant them a point for this.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: julian071 on December 19, 2014, 09:32:15 AM
ltcgear and bit-x are both listed. Common guys, the list is getting long, but not so long you cant find those.

In other news, looks like cloudmining.website is running on its last legs. It stopped automatic payments and enabled 100% reinvestment for everyone without even asking:

We have launched the settings page. Now you can hold your payment and re-invest automatically. Both these features have been turned on for all existing customers as well as new customers. If you want to turn them off, you can do that immediately from the settings page. Re-investment will take place everyday starting from coming Monday.

Thats pretty desperate.

Ah man, the poor people who invested there.... The cynical ones among you will say everyone who invested there is just gullible and greedy and they got what they deserved, but I disagree. People are just trying to make a buck, which is not at all implausible in the Wild West that crypto-land is. But I do hope that people lean something.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 19, 2014, 09:38:01 AM
Ah man, the poor people who invested there.... The cynical ones among you will say everyone who invested there is just gullible and greedy and they got what they deserved, but I disagree. People are just trying to make a buck, which is not at all implausible in the Wild West that crypto-land is.

Its implausible to me, that someone would be investing on a site that provides absolutely zero evidence of anything, not even competence,  and actually believe its anything other than a ponzi scam. And if the money was sent based on the assumption it was a ponzi, as I assume most investors did, then you're right that I have zero sympathy for them. In fact I consider them complicit for trying to steal bitcoins from later investors.



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: eneloop on December 19, 2014, 11:34:45 AM
I would say, that there are enough idiots standing up every morning to drive a successful ponzi scam.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: xhomerx10 on December 19, 2014, 02:52:24 PM
I would say, that there are enough idiots standing up every morning to drive a successful ponzi scam.

 These so-called Ponzis really weren't Ponzis until difficulty stagnated.  When difficulty was increasing exponentially, they could easily have paid out even without the benefit of new money - think about it; they have next to zero expenses and their payout is dependent only on difficulty and hashrate.  They could easily undercut real mining companies. The fly in the ointment is the stagnation of difficulty otherwise they would be thriving.  (Barring the exposure by Puppet of course)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: yvv on December 19, 2014, 04:08:24 PM
Finally got some real pictures of HashProfit: https://forum.btcsec.com/index.php?/topic/8524-hashprofit-maining-dlia-vsekh-200-khs-na-7-dnei-besplatno/?p=179951 :D

Are pictures from there start, so back then it wasn't that big.

Lets find out where they're mining.

I don't think that they are mining. I think they launder money from different busyness through cloud mining. Scrypt mining is not profitable today, but they are giving away A LOT of btc. It is definitely not a ponzi, guy just need to make their income clean.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 19, 2014, 04:12:00 PM
they could easily have paid out even without the benefit of new money - think about it; they have next to zero expenses and their payout is dependent only on difficulty and hashrate.

They could, but why on earth would they, given that most of them are anonymous ? You're assuming a "benevolent scammer" who will keep paying out according to the contract even though he is well past his peak profitability.  I think thats a rare breed.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: sickfancy on December 19, 2014, 05:16:17 PM
"ltcgear               1+3+4+5+6          => 5/7 = (very) suspicious (info welcome) "

Who's the asic vendor that endorsed ltcgear?

I assume they endorse themselves, since they sell hardware too.




Thank you.  That doesn't instill confidence.  Wtf did I get myself into!


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jaybow on December 19, 2014, 06:27:28 PM
Howdy,

Found another one - btcslice

Lifetime hash contracts, and no maintenance! Guess that's a 1+2+3+4+5+6+7 :)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: xhomerx10 on December 19, 2014, 06:51:14 PM
they could easily have paid out even without the benefit of new money - think about it; they have next to zero expenses and their payout is dependent only on difficulty and hashrate.

They could, but why on earth would they, given that most of them are anonymous ? You're assuming a "benevolent scammer" who will keep paying out according to the contract even though he is well past his peak profitability.  I think thats a rare breed.

 No I'm not really even saying scammer let alone benevolent!  What I'm saying is they were operating using a business model that would have paid out but nobody was ever going to ROI when diff was screaming up.  Nobody!  In much the same way as people never expected house prices to decline which cause the huge problem in the US when people couldn't pay their inflated mortgages.  They also had the major flaw of extremely long term contracts with no maintenance fees...


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: marcotheminer on December 19, 2014, 06:54:37 PM
Why do they have the number 4 alongside their name? They state that have a maximum of 1PH at the moment no?

Yes, but at this time, I cant see or verify how much of those 1PH they sold, so they could be doing fractional reserve mining without anyone noticing.

Quote
Curious as to why it would mean anything to cex.io?

cex.io used to be where bitfury sold their hashrate, or so I thought.


Alright, thanks for the reply.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 19, 2014, 07:06:33 PM
Howdy,

Found another one - btcslice

Lifetime hash contracts, and no maintenance! Guess that's a 1+2+3+4+5+6+7 :)

That one might warrant an "8" as well; it seems they dont even pay out in bitcoin, but in $  :o

http://www.btcslice.com/forum.php?topic=19

I assume via paypal?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Digiconomist on December 19, 2014, 10:24:44 PM
One thing I missed in criteria in the OP (it might have been said already, didn't have the time yet to read the rest) is plausiblity check on the promised (and delivered) returns. I've done some cloudmining (product) reviews in which I mainly focus on the returns, and based on that I dare to draw even stronger conclusions than the OP did (for two companies).

CoIntellect and ltcgear are both listed as "(very) suspicious". For these two, their product offers are truly absurd.

For LTCGear (full review (http://digiconomist.net/review-ltcgear)) I determined that they offer the equivalent of at least 30% ROI per month (take a moment to consider how fast you'll be a millionaire if that holds), and for Cointellect (full review (http://digiconomist.net/product-review-cointellect-cloud-mining)) I even found that they promise (and deliver) more mining income than mathematically possible.

And of course this makes sense for a Ponzi scheme. After all, it is required to attract not only new users, but also keep drop-off rates low and reinvestment rates high. In order to achieve that, the outlook needs to be better than anything else. Hence excessive returns should be one of the criteria. Certainly not the only one by the way, I limit myself to this because I'm reviewing products - not exposing scams (well I end up doing that for some, but that's not the goal). :)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ChrisCh on December 19, 2014, 11:03:41 PM
for cointellect i believe they are using the hash power for something else, it can explain profitability. their payback is indeed very good to be true, however they are paying for the last 3 months.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Zeta0S on December 20, 2014, 12:04:45 AM
We got this from Zeushash today.

Due to the surging of Litecoin minining difficulty, the daily payout of MHS
fails to cover the maintenance fee today. According to the term of MHS
contract, "the payout allocation will be terminated in case the daily mining
return is lower than the maintenance fee for 10 days in a row".

We are sorry to inform you when this continues for 10 consecutive days, we'll
have to terminate your MHS contracts. We are now on day four..
We didn't expect this happening so soon but we have no other choice.


I am happy i only have referrals there  :o :( :-X


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 20, 2014, 08:25:48 AM
One thing I missed in criteria in the OP (it might have been said already, didn't have the time yet to read the rest) is plausiblity check on the promised (and delivered) returns.

Ive deliberately ignored profitability for a few reasons already explained, but also because it doesnt really tell you much about if a service is a scam or not. A ponzi can arbitrarily set perceived profitability. Setting it for low profitability will make for a slow, longer lasting ponzi, setting it high will make it collapse faster, but its not even obvious to me which will earn the scammer most. So I dont want high prices to become a false indicator of legitimacy, nor penalize a legitimate service for having highly competitive price, nor give ammo to those that accuse legitimate mining services of being scams just because the contracts are no longer able to pay dividends.

That said, nice job on the website. I generally ignore all cloudmining "review" sites because they are simply a vehicle to push referrals. Its nice to see one that actually tries to tell the truth.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 20, 2014, 09:14:38 AM
We got this from Zeushash today.

Due to the surging of Litecoin minining difficulty, the daily payout of MHS
fails to cover the maintenance fee today. According to the term of MHS
contract, "the payout allocation will be terminated in case the daily mining
return is lower than the maintenance fee for 10 days in a row".

We are sorry to inform you when this continues for 10 consecutive days, we'll
have to terminate your MHS contracts. We are now on day four..
We didn't expect this happening so soon but we have no other choice.


A quick look at their fees and litecoin difficulty suggests what they say is entirely plausible.
Or I should say, was, because difficulty seems to been dropping again, so there might be some more weeks of payouts to come.

This however, is in no way evidence of a scam, but it does serve as an illustration of why mining in general is usually a bad idea: any apparent or excess profitability will quickly be gobbled up by extra deployments, causing difficulty to rise to the point where revenue and costs are in balance and cloud mining contracts become worthless. Unless you have a significant competitive edge (low costs), mining can appear to be profitable, but it will almost never end up being profitable. Its been like that since the very first asic, but people still get fooled by the short term %'s.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Digiconomist on December 20, 2014, 11:26:30 AM
One thing I missed in criteria in the OP (it might have been said already, didn't have the time yet to read the rest) is plausiblity check on the promised (and delivered) returns.

Ive deliberately ignored profitability for a few reasons already explained, but also because it doesnt really tell you much about if a service is a scam or not. A ponzi can arbitrarily set perceived profitability. Setting it for low profitability will make for a slow, longer lasting ponzi, setting it high will make it collapse faster, but its not even obvious to me which will earn the scammer most. So I dont want high prices to become a false indicator of legitimacy, nor penalize a legitimate service for having highly competitive price, nor give ammo to those that accuse legitimate mining services of being scams just because the contracts are no longer able to pay dividends.

That said, nice job on the website. I generally ignore all cloudmining "review" sites because they are simply a vehicle to push referrals. Its nice to see one that actually tries to tell the truth.

Well, it is one the main characteristics (http://www.sec.gov/answers/ponzi.htm) of Ponzi to offer high returns with little to no risk. The SEC lists the following items with regard to returns:

  • High investment returns with little or no risk. Every investment carries some degree of risk, and investments yielding higher returns typically involve more risk. Be highly suspicious of any "guaranteed" investment opportunity.
  • Overly consistent returns. Investment values tend to go up and down over time, especially those offering potentially high returns. Be suspect of an investment that continues to generate regular, positive returns regardless of overall market conditions.

And if you think about a Cloud Mining contract, then your only real risk is credit risk. Hence getting over 100%+ per annum makes zero sense. That´s because it is similar to a swap contract, which has zero NPV at inception, but with the credit risk being off balance due to the upfront payments. In other words, your primary source of income depends on the likeliness of default of the company involved.

But most genuine cloud mining companies cannot offer the required discount. That´s because they have the operational costs which are not relevant to the fair value of the contract. If you do include that, then the customer always has a superior investment strategy buying directly from an exchange and would never buy the contract. In other words, they would really need to stress their own position to offer any discount at all. Thus if it is genuine then you´ll typically pay too much.

From what I´ve seen so far, there is nothing in between a poor product and an unrealistic (Ponzi) product. I suppose that because most companies do not know how to accurately value their own product in the first place. I've contacted several of them, but not a single one includes expectations in the pricing of the product. You can fix the price, but not the hashrate, so how can you properly value your swap-like product if you do not have an opinion on expected future cash flows?? Fortunately for them, their customers cannot do this assessment either. But this is also what causes the huge gaps between a "normal" and a "ponzi" product. A genuine business intuitively sets the discount too low, while a ponzi schemer does not care and offers an arbitrarily large one.

Nevertheless, it is still only an indicator as scammers might choose to simply offer a competitive rate (meaning: still a rather poor product) in a market that is not properly understood. So overall, I can agree to leaving it out to a certain extend, although I do think that it is a pretty strong indicator in the current environment (perhaps just more difficult to understand).

Having written all this, I would like to end with a compliment for how this assessment has been set up. In the end, it's not like the final verdict for the concerned cloud mining companies is miles apart. So at the very least, the criteria already used seem quite good. :)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 20, 2014, 12:07:55 PM
And if you think about a Cloud Mining contract, then your only real risk is credit risk.

Nope. The real risk (assuming its not a scam) is future difficulty and btc exchange rate (operating costs are in still paid in fiat)

Quote
Hence getting over 100%+ per annum makes zero sense.

But you cant know what future profits will be like. You make assumptions on exchange rate and future difficulty and those assumptions tend to be overly optimistic. If they predict a significant profit, that very same prediction will lead to increased deployment of hashrate which will invalidate your prediction. In a sense, its a self defeating prophecy. To some extend the opposite is also true, if even the most efficient mining operation can no longer break even on its running costs, then difficulty will adjust until it does, because less efficient miners will unplug.

In short: long term profitability of mining is just marginally above zero for those with the most efficient hardware and the lowest operating costs. No need for math or estimates, its just how this market works. Its a zero sum game after all.



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Digiconomist on December 20, 2014, 01:41:18 PM
Nope. The real risk (assuming its not a scam) is future difficulty and btc exchange rate (operating costs are in still paid in fiat)
What I meant was that other risks do not justify a higher offered ROI. Exchange rate is a risk but not relevant to the pricing of the product due to the law of one price (spot-future parity). That leaves future difficulty (expected mining income) as the only factor that determines the price, which must result in zero expected ROI at inception for similar reasons. Buying 250 LTC (expected) for 300 LTC is obviously a bad deal, while the other way around is bad business (plus it would create an arbitrage opportunity). So the price must equal the expected coins mined with the contract, so that the NPV equals zero (or at least head in that direction).

Only cloud mining contracts demand upfront payments (that shifts the credit risk to the customer), so that justifies a discount (ROI greater than zero at inception). This is why cloud mining is a shady business in general, because a discount means that the company is getting a bad deal. So even legit cloud mining companies are either exploiting their customers, or running a very poor business.. :)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Digiconomist on December 20, 2014, 05:04:46 PM
Nope. The real risk (assuming its not a scam) is future difficulty and btc exchange rate (operating costs are in still paid in fiat)
What I meant was that other risks do not justify a higher offered ROI. Exchange rate is a risk but not relevant to the pricing of the product due to the law of one price (spot-future parity). That leaves future difficulty (expected mining income) as the only factor that determines the price, which must result in zero expected ROI at inception for similar reasons. Buying 250 LTC (expected) for 300 LTC is obviously a bad deal, while the other way around is bad business (plus it would create an arbitrage opportunity). So the price must equal the expected coins mined with the contract, so that the NPV equals zero (or at least head in that direction).

Only cloud mining contracts demand upfront payments (that shifts the credit risk to the customer), so that justifies a discount (ROI greater than zero at inception). This is why cloud mining is a shady business in general, because a discount means that the company is getting a bad deal. So even legit cloud mining companies are either exploiting their customers, or running a very poor business.. :)

It's a very interesting comment but cloudmining companies get money upfront, they can use this money to buy new hardware. If they were not open to customers and were just mining for themselves they would not be able to grow as much.

Cloudmining companies can take a fee to conduct the business which means they have a very low risk and can earn a lot without cheating.
From a customer perspective any additional return beyond the credit risk compensation is risk free. That's where you head towards what the SEC advices to watch out for: High investment returns with little or no risk. If it's legit, credit risk would actually be expected to be negligible (they're just building their farm right, it's not risky business by nature) and it makes a high ROI (at inception) even more unlikely; it shouldn't last (it leaves an arbitrage opportunity).

Of course, I'm being very theoretical. I do not believe in market efficiency at that level (even more because the companies set the prices and not the market). Just trying to point out why at least 100%+ ROI p.a. at inception is a strong sign of trouble (and it's often not limited to that), while in theory it should be closer to zero than anything else. Important: this does not rule out a return over the lifetime of the contract; that can still be the case if prices go up and/or difficulty develops slower than anticipated (emphasis on the latter otherwise you are better off buying the currency), the main question is: are you paying a realistic price for a contract that allows you to speculate on that :)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ShadeysLadyDrea on December 20, 2014, 09:37:17 PM

Application of these criteria to some cloudmining companies

Feel free to post corrections or additions.


I was just noticing ZoomHash is not yet on this list. Haven't checked it out yet, so not sure if its legit or not....


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jyap on December 20, 2014, 11:15:15 PM
Thank you for putting this together.  I'll publicize it.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 21, 2014, 08:46:56 AM
I was just noticing ZoomHash is not yet on this list. Haven't checked it out yet, so not sure if its legit or not....

AFAICT, they are no longer selling cloudmining.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 21, 2014, 09:02:43 AM
What I meant was that other risks do not justify a higher offered ROI. Exchange rate is a risk but not relevant to the pricing of the product due to the law of one price (spot-future parity).

Thats incorrect. You're ignoring maintenance fees which are function of exchange rate since electricity, hosting and usually hardware is still priced in fiat. Maintenance fees currently take up 50-90+% of the payouts on most legitimate contracts, so this is pretty darn crucial. If BTC falls below $200, all these contracts become worthless. If BTC goes ballistic, even cex.io contracts might make you a nice profit. AT least until difficulty catches up.

Quote
That leaves future difficulty (expected mining income) as the only factor that determines the price, which must result in zero expected ROI at inception for similar reasons. Buying 250 LTC (expected) for 300 LTC is obviously a bad deal, while the other way around is bad business (plus it would create an arbitrage opportunity). So the price must equal the expected coins mined with the contract, so that the NPV equals zero (or at least head in that direction).

Again, you're assuming to know how much a contract will pay out. If you do not know what difficulty will be like 6 months from now and what the exchange rate will be, how do you know what the expected payout will be ?

You see cloudmining as a loan from the investor to the miner, I see it as the miner selling off a huge risk to the highest bidder.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Digiconomist on December 21, 2014, 01:26:11 PM
What I meant was that other risks do not justify a higher offered ROI. Exchange rate is a risk but not relevant to the pricing of the product due to the law of one price (spot-future parity).

Thats incorrect. You're ignoring maintenance fees which are function of exchange rate since electricity, hosting and usually hardware is still priced in fiat. Maintenance fees currently take up 50-90+% of the payouts on most legitimate contracts, so this is pretty darn crucial. If BTC falls below $200, all these contracts become worthless. If BTC goes ballistic, even cex.io contracts might make you a nice profit. AT least until difficulty catches up.

Quote
That leaves future difficulty (expected mining income) as the only factor that determines the price, which must result in zero expected ROI at inception for similar reasons. Buying 250 LTC (expected) for 300 LTC is obviously a bad deal, while the other way around is bad business (plus it would create an arbitrage opportunity). So the price must equal the expected coins mined with the contract, so that the NPV equals zero (or at least head in that direction).

Again, you're assuming to know how much a contract will pay out. If you do not know what difficulty will be like 6 months from now and what the exchange rate will be, how do you know what the expected payout will be ?

You see cloudmining as a loan from the investor to the miner, I see it as the miner selling off a huge risk to the highest bidder.
I see a cloudmining contract as a financial swap contract, although with a small twist due to the mismatch in cash flows. If you're swapping flows then you're also swapping risks, so I don't think we see it very differently?

I do not intend to pretend that I can perfectly value these contracts. In my methodology I take a very pessimistic scenario so that I'm sure that my expection would be below the mean expectation if there was a free market. If I'm still left with a huge ROI at inception after that then I know something is wrong, because a swap traded at the mean expectation has zero NPV. In all other cases, I just want to inform people of the possible scenarios of the product they are buying, because cloud mining companies sadly do not provide this level of transparency.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: dicefun on December 22, 2014, 01:08:27 AM
just want to subscribe to this topic
it seems very useful


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: DiCE1904 on December 22, 2014, 01:11:54 AM
just want to subscribe to this topic
it seems very useful

Same. Thanks for this thread Puppet


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: raskul on December 22, 2014, 09:12:00 PM
found another one

https://www.bitcoinmaker.ch/

advertising on google, so you can bet your bottom dollar they already have victims.

but it's OK.. they have pix of their mining farm...

https://www.bitcoinmaker.ch/images/Datacenter.jpg

 ::)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 22, 2014, 09:51:15 PM
found another one

They are hardly even pretending to do any mining, just using it as a  convenient excuse for a very transparent ponzi. I mean, guaranteed profit? Riiight. Interestingly, the company address and domain name registration at first glance appear plausible. No idea how easy or hard it is to set up a fake swiss company, but might be worth shooting an email to swiss authorities.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: chatoshi on December 22, 2014, 11:33:11 PM
He is fully registered in the commercial register of canton Ticino, Switzerland.
Sole proprietorship Identification number CHE-282.741.339

www.zefix.ch

It's easy to be registered in Switzerland but very risky to startup this kind of business without limited liabilities. In the the other hand it would be a great advantage for potential creditors in case of bankruptcy.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: raskul on December 22, 2014, 11:34:21 PM
He is fully registered in the commercial register of canton Ticino, Switzerland.
Sole proprietorship Identification number CHE-282.741.339

www.zefix.ch


and never seen on bitcointalk.

i wonder what he's afraid of  ::)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: chatoshi on December 22, 2014, 11:49:08 PM
He is fully registered in the commercial register of canton Ticino, Switzerland.
Sole proprietorship Identification number CHE-282.741.339

www.zefix.ch


and never seen on bitcointalk.

i wonder what he's afraid of  ::)

of course it could be a scam, but in this case it will be harder for him to flee his commitments. It's the only thing I want to say.

Don't be paranoid please !  :D


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Pug on December 23, 2014, 05:51:56 AM
-


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 23, 2014, 09:56:43 AM
Added bitcoinmaker.ch  and introduced  "guaranteed profit" bonus point that automatically leads to a ponzi classification.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jaybow on December 23, 2014, 11:41:17 PM
Guys,

I'm having my doubts about megamine. Why is it scored so well in the list?

AFAIK, they're pretending to be mining in Facebooks datacenter or something, or in another datacenter in the neighborhood.
Company is unregistered, with address the same as the postal address of the datacenter they pretend they're using.
http://www.hydro66.com/#details (http://www.hydro66.com/#details)

I couldn't find an endorsement by some vendor...


Would like to hear why you score it otherwise?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on December 24, 2014, 12:05:08 AM
I wouldn't necessarily say that a promise of guaranteed profit is a foolproof indication of a ponzi. There could be actual mining operations that promise guaranteed profits but are just lying and hoping things work out.

Kind of like BFL offering Monarch delivery times starting November-December 2013, and then not taping out until November. It's not that they didn't make they ASIC, they just lied a lot about how they were going about it.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cloverme on December 24, 2014, 05:01:44 AM
I wouldn't necessarily say that a promise of guaranteed profit is a foolproof indication of a ponzi. There could be actual mining operations that promise guaranteed profits but are just lying and hoping things work out.

Kind of like BFL offering Monarch delivery times starting November-December 2013, and then not taping out until November. It's not that they didn't make they ASIC, they just lied a lot about how they were going about it.

I tend to agree with you, but I understand Puppet's point as well. It's a valid point as a risk assessment by making a dubious claim and warning potential buyers about it. Throwing guaranteed out there in the context of a mining investment is probably about the same as saying you'll get a guaranteed return from the stock market. However, it doesn't necessarily make them a ponzi by stating that, just probably less trustworthy I suppose.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 24, 2014, 08:19:29 AM
Guys,

I'm having my doubts about megamine. Why is it scored so well in the list?

AFAIK, they're pretending to be mining in Facebooks datacenter or something, or in another datacenter in the neighborhood.
Company is unregistered, with address the same as the postal address of the datacenter they pretend they're using.
http://www.hydro66.com/#details (http://www.hydro66.com/#details)

I couldn't find an endorsement by some vendor...


Would like to hear why you score it otherwise?


The dc and the cloudmining are the same people. They use a building right next to KNC. I granted them the endorsement point because of that and the pictures which I think prove beyond reasonable doubt they are a huge KNC customer. Moreover,  since KNC dont post here anymore, I kinda understand they are not gonna get an endorsement post. Some further discussion here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=860400.msg9580202#msg9580202



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 24, 2014, 08:23:14 AM
I wouldn't necessarily say that a promise of guaranteed profit is a foolproof indication of a ponzi. There could be actual mining operations that promise guaranteed profits but are just lying and hoping things work out.

Thats like saying the ponzi's are hoping difficulty will go up fast enough to make things work out. Keep in mind bitcoinmaker dont even sell you a certain hashrate, they explicitly sell you a profit margin and claim to adapt the hashrate to achieve that.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Grinder on December 24, 2014, 10:43:12 AM
Thats like saying the ponzi's are hoping difficulty will go up fast enough to make things work out. Keep in mind bitcoinmaker dont even sell you a certain hashrate, they explicitly sell you a profit margin and claim to adapt the hashrate to achieve that.

Don't forget that it can be a scam even if it's not a ponzi. If they are anonymous they can have real miners and sell the mining power very cheaply, even letting their customers point the miners to different pools. After a while they can just stop giving the mining power or profit margin they have promised to their customers and keep both their money and the miners. It wouldn't be a ponzi, but still a scam.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 24, 2014, 10:52:40 AM
Don't forget that it can be a scam even if it's not a ponzi. If they are anonymous they can have real miners and sell the mining power very cheaply, even letting their customers point the miners to different pools. After a while they can just stop giving the mining power or profit margin they have promised to their customers and keep both their money and the miners. It wouldn't be a ponzi, but still a scam.

True, which is why point 6 is so important, but sometimes difficult to verify.  I do think its going to be tricky to operate a large verifiable mining farm and maintain anonymity after running off with customers money though.

But here is the thing; I think I can guarantee that quite a few of these services will turn out to be scams, and thats what Im focused on. But no one can guarantee the safety of any cloudmining investment. After all,  there are other risks too, even a legitimate offer could be struck by disaster (fire, theft, legal problems,  whatever).  I think my position is clear that you are better off not investing in any of them, but if you have to, at least pick one that isnt guaranteed to be a scam. Just dont think that guarantees its not a scam.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on December 24, 2014, 02:47:09 PM
I wouldn't necessarily say that a promise of guaranteed profit is a foolproof indication of a ponzi. There could be actual mining operations that promise guaranteed profits but are just lying and hoping things work out.

Thats like saying the ponzi's are hoping difficulty will go up fast enough to make things work out. Keep in mind bitcoinmaker dont even sell you a certain hashrate, they explicitly sell you a profit margin and claim to adapt the hashrate to achieve that.

Yeah, bitcoinmaker is almost certainly a scam. My point is more general about the criteria though; tomorrow AMHash could get tired of disappointing sales and start pushing optimistic scenarios and guaranteeing profit. That wouldn't really make them a ponzi since they aren't paying out old money with new, but it would still be a massive red flag. IMO guaranteed profit should be another point (maybe worth double points), but it's not a homerun for it being a ponzi in and of itself.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 24, 2014, 03:06:42 PM
Yeah, bitcoinmaker is almost certainly a scam. My point is more general about the criteria though; tomorrow AMHash could get tired of disappointing sales and start pushing optimistic scenarios and guaranteeing profit. That wouldn't really make them a ponzi since they aren't paying out old money with new, but it would still be a massive red flag. IMO guaranteed profit should be another point (maybe worth double points), but it's not a homerun for it being a ponzi in and of itself.

If AMhash started guaranteeing profits, they would have become a scam.
You object to the name Ponzi, and perhaps you are right and it should just be called a scam, but consider where the money would come from to pay out the partial 'profits' while the difficulty/exchange rate ratio isnt as profitable as they promised. They can only instantly break their promise, or delay it by turning ponzi. Frankly, the distinction is semantics to me, you're getting screwed either way.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on December 24, 2014, 03:17:48 PM
Yeah, bitcoinmaker is almost certainly a scam. My point is more general about the criteria though; tomorrow AMHash could get tired of disappointing sales and start pushing optimistic scenarios and guaranteeing profit. That wouldn't really make them a ponzi since they aren't paying out old money with new, but it would still be a massive red flag. IMO guaranteed profit should be another point (maybe worth double points), but it's not a homerun for it being a ponzi in and of itself.

If AMhash started guaranteeing profits, they would have become a scam.
You object to the name Ponzi, and perhaps you are right and it should just be called a scam, but consider where the money would come from to pay out the partial 'profits' while the difficulty/exchange rate ratio isnt as profitable as they promised. They can only instantly break their promise, or delay it by turning ponzi. Frankly, the distinction is semantics to me, you're getting screwed either way.

LOL... You're probably getting screwed by AMHash anyway, they're just being honest about it right now and hoping you still line up lube in hand regardless.

It is a bit pedantic I'll agree, but I am a bit of a pedant and given how vociferously the referral link spammers are with their denials it's always nice to be accurate.

On another note, I've been running with displaying signatures disabled for awhile now, and every once in awhile I'll take a guess at a page in one of the ponzi threads on who has referral/sig campaign crap in their signature and who doesn't. Other than some old members who should know better, it's amazing how accurate it is once you turn them back on to see if you're right.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 24, 2014, 03:48:12 PM
ok, so lets be pedantic :).

Am I correct assuming that we agree that bitcoinmaker is not just a scam, but specifically a ponzi type scam (either that, or a vehicle for Ingvar Kamprad to spread his wealth around).

If so, would it change anything if they were actually mining with 1 antminer ?
If not, what about  10? 100?

If not, then how is it different from the situation where amhash would be selling a fixed mining profit of x% per year ?

BTW, if you disable sigs, are you able to have one yourself?




Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on December 24, 2014, 04:42:02 PM
ok, so lets be pedantic :).

Am I correct assuming that we agree that bitcoinmaker is not just a scam, but specifically a ponzi type scam (either that, or a vehicle for Ingvar Kamprad to spread his wealth around).

If so, would it change anything if they were actually mining with 1 antminer ?
If not, what about  10? 100?

If not, then how is it different from the situation where amhash would be selling a fixed mining profit of x% per year ?

BTW, if you disable sigs, are you able to have one yourself?

Whether or not they are mining has no real impact on whether or not it is a ponzi. Boyko obviously had some mining power at one point (rented or not, who knows) and that is a ponzi.
The hallmark of a ponzi is that the returns are not based on actual revenue, and are paid with investor money. I'm not sure exactly where you'd draw the line on a fractional reserve mining operation; as much as I hate to say it, it probably boils down to intent. A proper company would limit the offering to actually available hardware (covered by your unlimited IPO point), but if someone like Bitmain, KnC or Bitfury didn't do that and had a huge sales rush that put them past their actual capacity it wouldn't make them a ponzi.
A permanent fraction mining operation is a more complex beast and you'd have to judge them on a case by case basis. There exists the edge case where a real mine could be slightly fractional, but still pay out real revenue because their maintenance fees are much higher than their actual costs. They're still subjecting themselves (and their customers) to exchange rate risk, but I'm not sure I'd fully qualify that as a ponzi.

Also note, I'm not saying that AMHash would offer a fixed mining profit per year and actually pay it out. I'm just saying that they could advertise "guaranteed profit" with no real backing, and if it works out, great. If it doesn't, tough shit for you. Not a ponzi, just scammy false advertising.

On the signature, no idea. I don't have one. :P


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 24, 2014, 08:26:20 PM
Also note, I'm not saying that AMHash would offer a fixed mining profit per year and actually pay it out. I'm just saying that they could advertise "guaranteed profit" with no real backing, and if it works out, great. If it doesn't, tough shit for you. Not a ponzi, just scammy false advertising.

Consider the following contracts:
- you get mining revenue of x GH minus Y fees and we guarantee that as a result you will break even or make Z% ROI (if not tough luck)
- you get z% ROI (thanks to our pixie dust fairy tale miner pool)

Seems to me you would consider the first just false advertising, although if the profit is guaranteed, Id say its a contractual obligation and I dont see a fundamental difference with the latter. in both cases, there is no mechanism to generate the promised profits.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on December 24, 2014, 08:41:17 PM
Also note, I'm not saying that AMHash would offer a fixed mining profit per year and actually pay it out. I'm just saying that they could advertise "guaranteed profit" with no real backing, and if it works out, great. If it doesn't, tough shit for you. Not a ponzi, just scammy false advertising.

Consider the following contracts:
- you get mining revenue of x GH minus Y fees and we guarantee that as a result you will break even or make Z% ROI (if not tough luck)
- you get z% ROI (thanks to our pixie dust fairy tale miner pool)

Seems to me you would consider the first just false advertising, although if the profit is guaranteed, Id say its a contractual obligation and I dont see a fundamental difference with the latter. in both cases, there is no mechanism to generate the promised profits.

True, but there was no mechanism for BFL to ship Monarchs in Nov-Dec with a November tapeout or for HashCoins to ship a 5 chip 4.5TH/s 2800W HashFast miner in an ATX case either, and it doesn't make them ponzis. It just makes them scams for promising something they can't deliver.

It is pedantic as most of the cloudmining scams will be ponzis, but it's possible for a Cloudmining outfit to be a scam or scammy without being a ponzi. In the theoretical AM case, if their contract remains the same as it is now but they plaster a simple mining calculator up on the main page that indexes everything to the current difficulty, or has a increasing BTC/USD factor, etc. and they then plaster big banners on the site that say "150 Day Break Even! 100% profit, guaranteed!" it doesn't make them a ponzi. You could argue (possibly successfully) that the front page claims supersede the boring long legalese contract that has no profit guarantee mentioned, or that they've violated their contract if they do claim it there but then break the terms of the contract, but that's a different kind of scam.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 25, 2014, 10:00:37 AM
True, but there was no mechanism for BFL to ship Monarchs in Nov-Dec with a November tapeout or for HashCoins to ship a 5 chip 4.5TH/s 2800W HashFast miner in an ATX case either, and it doesn't make them ponzis. It just makes them scams for promising something they can't deliver.

But they werent promising dividends which would have to be paid from customer's investments.

Quote
It is pedantic as most of the cloudmining scams will be ponzis, but it's possible for a Cloudmining outfit to be a scam or scammy without being a ponzi. In the theoretical AM case, if their contract remains the same as it is now but they plaster a simple mining calculator up on the main page that indexes everything to the current difficulty, or has a increasing BTC/USD factor, etc. and they then plaster big banners on the site that say "150 Day Break Even! 100% profit, guaranteed!" it doesn't make them a ponzi. You could argue (possibly successfully) that the front page claims supersede the boring long legalese contract that has no profit guarantee mentioned, or that they've violated their contract if they do claim it there but then break the terms of the contract, but that's a different kind of scam.

A banner advertising may or may not alter their contractual obligations, Im taking no position on that issue,  but that doesnt change the essence that if they sell a contract that makes these profit promises, that ponzi is an appropriate term. So it may or may not apply to the theoretical AM case, but it certainly applies to bitcoinmaker and will apply to any cloudmining company that explicitly sells a guaranteed profit contract.

Anyway, filed a complaint with swiss authorities regarding bitcoinmaker.ch, lets see if they do something.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: eneloop on December 25, 2014, 03:39:01 PM
Here is another one: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=895814.0
I would say 1 to 7 minus 5 (not sure about referral, nothing to read about in OP).


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 26, 2014, 09:39:06 AM
Here is another one: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=895814.0
I would say 1 to 7 minus 5 (not sure about referral, nothing to read about in OP).

Thanks, added it, including the '5', referrals are there if you sign up.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: bitcoinmind on December 26, 2014, 11:20:30 AM
HashProfit get many new customers .. They gain confidence, and here "very suspicious". Any news about this service?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 26, 2014, 11:26:35 AM
If its a ponzi as I suspect, there wont be any 'news' for as long as enough new customers sign up.  Its only when not enough new customers sign up or not enough old customers reinvest,  that you will be getting the news that payouts are delayed/too low/they were hacked/website gone/whatever. But until that day  (which can be any day) you would expect ponzi's to pay on schedule with no reported problems.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: bitcoinmind on December 26, 2014, 11:35:34 AM
If its a ponzi as I suspect, there wont be any 'news' for as long as enough new customers sign up.  Its only when not enough new customers sign up or not enough old customers reinvest,  that you will be getting the news that payouts are delayed/too low/they were hacked/website gone/whatever. But until that day  (which can be any day) you would expect ponzi's to pay on schedule with no reported problems.

Hopefully they show some proofs of legit. I try to buy a bit to test it. With an awareness of the risks. We will see..  :)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Warren Buffet on December 26, 2014, 03:44:30 PM
Found the identity of the person behind cryptomine.io => https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=832448.msg9949681#msg9949681


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: bitcoinmind on December 26, 2014, 04:33:26 PM
If its a ponzi as I suspect, there wont be any 'news' for as long as enough new customers sign up.  Its only when not enough new customers sign up or not enough old customers reinvest,  that you will be getting the news that payouts are delayed/too low/they were hacked/website gone/whatever. But until that day  (which can be any day) you would expect ponzi's to pay on schedule with no reported problems.

Hopefully they show some proofs of legit. I try to buy a bit to test it. With an awareness of the risks. We will see..  :)

just about.. :)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=905567.0


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 26, 2014, 04:50:42 PM
Found the identity of the person behind cryptomine.io => https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=832448.msg9949681#msg9949681

Is that based just on the pics found on cryptonzi.io ?
If so, it could certainly be useful, and there is a good chance you are correct, but Id be careful not to jump to conclusions. 

That said, this is the same guy:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/vasicekwork

Endorsed by a Nigerian 'CYBERPRENEUR' for his web marketing skills :p.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cloverme on December 26, 2014, 06:09:15 PM
Found the identity of the person behind cryptomine.io => https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=832448.msg9949681#msg9949681

Be careful with your doxxing efforts, while I'm sure you're intentions are well meant; you could have the wrong people and causing all sorts of problems for individuals who haven't done anything wrong.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: skuser on December 27, 2014, 07:58:36 PM
Ltcgear.com can be now reclassified as collapsing ponzi. First there were missing payments last week https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=23938.0
(including owner's request not to post amounts 'in order to protect their accounts' but more probably to hide the size of operation. Before people started removing numbers well over 200 BTC owed was posted) then transfering shares between accounts has been disabled and the site owner came with classical 'site hacked' story (this time called 'unauthorised modifications to database') with plans to switch weekly payments to payment on demand and other fairytales.See his website http://ltcgear.com/

As the site owner is very creative as next step I expect claim that database can't be recovered but he will offer some ultra high discount for people to buy new 'shares' to recover from losses and they will buy like crazy again ;)



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 27, 2014, 09:11:36 PM
Interesting. But we will need a few more collapses to trigger an avalanche of people waking up and stop feeding those ponzi's, which will cause even more collapses. Cant happen soon enough, and in particular I hope a few young ponzi's collapse before even day 1 investors came close to profiting. From collapses of older ponzi's like pbmining and presumably ltcgear, I fear many will learn the wrong lesson, namely that you have to get in early.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 27, 2014, 10:39:18 PM
Hashprofit may be on the brink too. 75% discounts seems rather desperate, their own scamcoin plunged towards nothingness, and now claims of being hacked:
https://hashprofit.com/en/news/vnimanie-na-servis-hp-vedetsya-khorosho-skoordinir/


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: bigadam0101 on December 27, 2014, 10:47:26 PM
Hashprofit may be on the brink too. 75% discounts seems rather desperate, their own scamcoin plunged towards nothingness, and now claims of being hacked:
https://hashprofit.com/en/news/vnimanie-na-servis-hp-vedetsya-khorosho-skoordinir/

Let's wait till monday:

Hash Profit official:

"24.12.2014 14:18
29th of December 2014 Hash Profit company will make a presentation of new ASIC datacenters which are located outside the Russian Federation and that's why they can be shown to our clients and partners with ease.

Presentation of GPU datacenters located in Rissia wasn't take place due to security reasons and for to hashrate demand would be equabe and our service could support high yields levels of newly embedded hashrate.

There are less than 200 000 Kh/s of GPU SmartMining hashrate available. We want to congratulate all of our users for successful cooperative work of development and popularization of HP service in 2014.

We're announcing our plans on 2015 year!

Increase our users' number to 500 000 in 1st quarter of 2015.
Become one of the TOP-10 biggest mining companies in the world.
Increase ProfitCoin market cap to $5 000 000
We're sure that together we can achieve everything, because we did "impossible" through 2014: from a unknown group of miners we grew to became a company which takes 2nd place in Russia counting all the main measures (BTC-E exchange service is taking the 1st place).

ProfitCoin exchange rate was changed today and right now is 1 PFC = 11 Kh/s. You can buy or exchange ProfitCoin very easy on a C-Cex exchange service.

Dozens of lead cryptocurrency companies desire to work with us.

We're constantly carry on negotiations and develop new tools which will be shortly available to all cryptocurrency community. The main profit will gain our partners and clients, of course.

Our main benefit from now on is not just high effective mining but the fact we've gathered and unite a huge amount of people (more than 200 000) who look further and who holds the future in their hands.

We'd like to inform our users that right now our service is constantly being tried to hack and compromise and we're experiencing massive DDoS-attacks (distributed denial of service) due to our high popularity. We're tracing dozens of attempts to penetrate daily. Our users getting emails from malefactors more often with "free bonuses" and "interesting offers". Be aware and careful - all of our promos and bonuses announced in "News" section of the site. Malefactors often redirects users to a visual fake copy of our site to try and steal your login and password. Always check the spelling of site's address (URL) and secure connection presence via the HTTPS.

It's highly recommended to use two factor authentication feature on our site and other precautions that can lower the chance of your account personal info to be stolen."


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 27, 2014, 10:51:33 PM
That post is actually another reason I think they are on the brink of collapse. Maybe they will 'surprise' me, by doing what I predicted earlier:

Sounds like they may have used some of their  ponzi profits to buy some hardware to launder their profits and give another boost to their ponzi
Not so different as hashie did. Sell non existent Gen 1, use coins to buy AMhash and pretend to be trustworthy. Use misplaced trust to sell Gen 2 aka firecrackers.

Either that, or the end is really close.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=905567.msg9952743#msg9952743

But that was before 75% discounts, before their scam coin collapsed and before they claimed attacks on the payout system and whatever.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: bigadam0101 on December 27, 2014, 10:55:32 PM
That post is actually another reason I think they are on the brink of collapse. Maybe they will 'surprise' me, by doing what I predicted earlier:

Sounds like they may have used some of their  ponzi profits to buy some hardware to launder their profits and give another boost to their ponzi
Not so different as hashie did. Sell non existent Gen 1, use coins to buy AMhash and pretend to be trustworthy. Use misplaced trust to sell Gen 2 aka firecrackers.

Either that, or the end is really close.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=905567.msg9952743#msg9952743

But that was before their scam coin collapsed and they claimed attacks on the payout system and whatever.

Try to think now in your way but from other side.. Why Hash Profit was attacked all day by DDoS? It looks like someone is affraid of them.. Or you gonna say thats "gang war"?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 27, 2014, 10:58:01 PM
So randomly turning your website on and off to provide cover for delayed payouts is now considered a proof of legitimacy?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: david123 on December 27, 2014, 11:12:26 PM
No. 7 now applies to ltcgear. After the recent server migration, it's not possible any more to transfer shares,
so no way to sell a position except for disclosing the login credentials.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: bigadam0101 on December 27, 2014, 11:15:48 PM
So randomly turning your website on and off to provide cover for delayed payouts is now considered a proof of legitimacy?


you can always surprise me :) respect!


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: crazyearner on December 28, 2014, 01:03:27 AM
Quote
hashprofit.com          1+3+4+~6+7     (looking in to it, feedback welcome)

Looks like the most suspicious among all to me. But I got the most of BTC from them through promo sales (50% discounts!) and refferals. They gave me three times more Khs for free than I bought from them on sale. Two weeks ago, I removed all referrals links from my signature on all forums which I use, but I still continue to receive free Khs from hashprofit referrals.

hashprofit seems ponzi enough wit the amount of people on it and the amount of discounts they continue to provide with no real info on what their actually doing other than collecting BTC. I don't quite understand how their Hash rate compared to real hashing they provide more of a higher payout. Am not bothered about this because it is paying. But the question needs to be asked how long it going to continue to make payments for tho.

Image from
Bitcoin Conference St.Petersburg

http://puu.sh/dLVjS.png

Makes you wonder how their actually making anything to actually pay customers if using GPUS but then again theris a fair few coins to mine with GPU


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: bigadam0101 on December 28, 2014, 01:23:41 AM
It looks like part of the mine. Am I right? ::)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: crazyearner on December 28, 2014, 01:31:09 AM
It looks like part of the mine. Am I right? ::)

It was shown at one of the conferences that where done and hash profit where their in person sowing one of their mining rigs. How on earth their making such profits with stuff like this is beyond me but its paying its all I know.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: bigadam0101 on December 28, 2014, 01:44:15 AM
It looks like part of the mine. Am I right? ::)

It was shown at one of the conferences that where done and hash profit where their in person sowing one of their mining rigs. How on earth their making such profits with stuff like this is beyond me but its paying its all I know.

Yes, i've understand first post.. i'm just looking for words to comment this.. but it's better if i just cross my fingers..  ;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: maronk on December 28, 2014, 06:45:01 AM
Interesting to join in this thread, very helpful for beginners such as me to know where to invest in cloudmining regardless of whether or not it lengit  ;D . This thread should get support from those who have long struggled in the world Bitcoin  ;) regardless of the purpose to reduce the number of victims because of their ignorance (because they tempted the high profits obtained in the shortest time according to the perverse argument of the provider CloudMining) but directs to think carefully before entering into it.


read it from the beginning is not something boring for a useful information  ;D ;D ;D ;)




Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: Puppet on December 28, 2014, 09:03:38 AM
Makes you wonder how their actually making anything to actually pay customers if using GPUS but then again theris a fair few coins to mine with GPU

For scrypt based altcoins, the difference between GPU and asic isnt nearly as big as for SHA. Im no expert in altcoin mining, but afaik, GPU's will be cheaper per MH  while efficiency is only 'a bit' worse (factors, not orders of magnitude). So if you have really really cheap electricity, it could make sense.

Here is the problem though: they claim to mine with 7970's, which would yield ~700Kh each. They have sold over 6000MH. Thats ~8500 of such GPU's. SO seeing 60 in a picture doesnt exactly convince me. In the early days of bitcoin mining, many of us had larger private farms.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: bigadam0101 on December 28, 2014, 10:40:18 AM
Makes you wonder how their actually making anything to actually pay customers if using GPUS but then again theris a fair few coins to mine with GPU

For scrypt based altcoins, the difference between GPU and asic isnt nearly as big as for SHA. Im no expert in altcoin mining, but afaik, GPU's will be cheaper per MH  while efficiency is only 'a bit' worse (factors, not orders of magnitude). So if you have really really cheap electricity, it could make sense.

Here is the problem though: they claim to mine with 7970's, which would yield ~700Kh each. They have sold over 6000MH. Thats ~8500 of such GPU's. SO seeing 60 in a picture doesnt exactly convince me. In the early days of bitcoin mining, many of us had larger private farms.

It's just a presentation. How much they have, probably we never see.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: Puppet on December 28, 2014, 11:01:21 AM
It's just a presentation. How much they have, probably we never see.

And why not? Because they dont own a smartphone with camera or because they dont have it?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: blackice2013 on December 28, 2014, 11:02:37 AM
^^


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 28, 2014, 11:04:40 AM
What do you know, hashie suddenly doesnt look too healthy either. Problems with payouts and operator is posting encoded message that contains lyrics with "Conceal, don't feel, don't let them know
Well, now they know!'.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on December 28, 2014, 11:07:04 AM
It would be really disappointing. After all they are/were ASCIMiner partners. Either way it is a gross mismanagement to treat their customers that way.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 28, 2014, 11:09:14 AM
Ive always said AM(hash) made a huge error of judgment letting hashie resell their product. Amhash admitted they dont even know the identity of the operator. All they did was give credibility to a scam, a scam that even competed with them.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: freakingcat on December 28, 2014, 11:16:54 AM
I saw that you put Zeus under possible a ponzi...I live in Hong Kong and have been to Shenzhen a few times to meet Terry, the CEO of Zeus. I have seen the mining farms with my own eyes. He is definitely not a ponzi scheme.

@freakingcat


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 28, 2014, 11:19:14 AM
I saw that you put Zeus under possible a ponzi...I live in Hong Kong and have been to Shenzhen a few times to meet Terry, the CEO of Zeus. I have seen the mining farms with my own eyes. He is definitely not a ponzi scheme.

@freakingcat

If you had made some convincing pictures or video's and posted those I might grant them that point. I can only judge what I can check, not eye witness reports of people with (no offense) no credibility here.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: simiane on December 28, 2014, 02:23:26 PM
I purchased hardware from Zeus, it broke (in warranty), and they have completely ignored countless emails, forum posts and pms.
It may not be a Ponzi, but Terry is definitely a scam artist.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Lordas on December 28, 2014, 03:11:56 PM
Ponzi schemes developed, and should be added number 8
Hashprofit now asking money for sending them a message (0.03 BTC!). And if you see there are no connection between message and payment.
You just pay and... message goes somewhere or maybe not... Don't be fooled.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: bigadam0101 on December 28, 2014, 03:16:51 PM
Ponzi schemes developed, and should be added number 8
Hashprofit now asking money for sending them a message (0.03 BTC!). And if you see there are no connection between message and payment.
You just pay and... message goes somewhere or maybe not... Don't be fooled.

yep, It doesn't look good:

"Our service was under the most severe attack ever. Due to most specialists' holidays we've decided for a reliable safety of users' funds to suspend site's work until the first Monday of 2015 (5th of January). Everybody will return to standard work then and we'll continue our work in a usual way. Please be calm. Thank you for understanding.

To keep contact with our users and to separate priority mail from spam, we've developed mail accepting via BTC payments. For guaranteed processing of your message you'll have to pay small amount through an interface below.

We've successfully deflected serious threats and attacks on our service earlier and we're sure that together we can do this even in a situation this hard."


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on December 28, 2014, 03:29:06 PM
Ponzi schemes developed, and should be added number 8
Hashprofit now asking money for sending them a message (0.03 BTC!). And if you see there are no connection between message and payment.
You just pay and... message goes somewhere or maybe not... Don't be fooled.

yep, It doesn't look good:

"Our service was under the most severe attack ever. Due to most specialists' holidays we've decided for a reliable safety of users' funds to suspend site's work until the first Monday of 2015 (5th of January). Everybody will return to standard work then and we'll continue our work in a usual way. Please be calm. Thank you for understanding.

To keep contact with our users and to separate priority mail from spam, we've developed mail accepting via BTC payments. For guaranteed processing of your message you'll have to pay small amount through an interface below.

We've successfully deflected serious threats and attacks on our service earlier and we're sure that together we can do this even in a situation this hard."


Where did you get this from?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: blackice2013 on December 28, 2014, 03:36:21 PM
Thats from HashProfit

http://www.hashprofit.com/en/

Another SCAM!


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: bigadam0101 on December 28, 2014, 04:20:59 PM
Thats from HashProfit

http://www.hashprofit.com/en/

Another SCAM!


Yep. You cann't open from https but from http: you can see official statement.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cloverme on December 28, 2014, 05:10:10 PM
Ponzi schemes developed, and should be added number 8
Hashprofit now asking money for sending them a message (0.03 BTC!). And if you see there are no connection between message and payment.
You just pay and... message goes somewhere or maybe not... Don't be fooled.

Wow, that's a new one.. Charging to send an email... I just saw that. Hahahah man, that takes the cake. 

It looks like hashie.co has imploded as well.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 28, 2014, 05:25:08 PM
Wow, that's a new one.. Charging to send an email... I just saw that. Hahahah man, that takes the cake. 

Its not new. The idea of using btc (or namecoins) as digital stamps for messaging services to prevent spam has been around since almost the beginning.
$10 is a bit excessive though :).

Quote
It looks like hashie.co has imploded as well.

Yeah, imagine my surprise  ::)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: julian071 on December 28, 2014, 06:42:28 PM
OMG what a terrible mess with all these ponzi's collapsing. Thanks again Puppet for all your effort in warming people. I'm sure things would be even worse if you hadn't.

And I share your concern that it would've been better if these ponzi's collapsed much earlier. I've read trhough some of the threads of these collapsing ponzi's, and actually see some people make the comment that they don't really care that it collapses, as long as they have more then a ROI. Terrible.

It sure is a lot of drama. Good material for a book or documentary.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: yvv on December 28, 2014, 10:26:32 PM
Thats from HashProfit

http://www.hashprofit.com/en/

Another SCAM!


WHAHAHA! Another shit scam!

Check out hashie.co Enjoy the music :)

http://imgur.com/VBuZeDs


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: skynex66 on December 28, 2014, 10:32:59 PM
Ponzi schemes developed, and should be added number 8
Hashprofit now asking money for sending them a message (0.03 BTC!). And if you see there are no connection between message and payment.
You just pay and... message goes somewhere or maybe not... Don't be fooled.

Wow, that's a new one.. Charging to send an email... I just saw that. Hahahah man, that takes the cake.  

It looks like hashie.co has imploded as well.

what's up with hashie.co and the morse code message?

"hashie.co/scs"
"cake the cake is a lie"


it the ARG address the cake ?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: yvv on December 29, 2014, 12:37:57 AM
@Puppet

Dude, I give +5 to you. Very nice analysis, and I am happy I did not bet against your predictions. These scam mining shits are crashing at amazing rate! Good experience for those, who try everything on their skin, instead of making an intelligent decision. Sorry for those, who invested their retirement savings into these scams :)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: flame1012 on December 29, 2014, 12:38:52 AM
HashProfit.com was so obviously scam.
Each time I went to their site, there was a warning that their stock was almost sold out, and the nex day they just came out with millions of new stock :)
And they had unbelievable deductions like 55%, 65% and I even got an email providing a 75% OFF coupon :)

LTCgear Chris, is my favorite scammer. You can't buy anything cheap from him, you gotta shoot a grand to join the club :)
He even didn't care about paying someone to set up a good looking and well functioning website with automatic payment script.
ROI went down to 2 weeks sometimes :) and his "bye bye referal system, I can't pay the ponzi anymore" coupon was %49 :)
When I warned people, they called me a jerk at the forum.

BTW GAW is scam too.
 Some of their hashlets stopped paying.
I had 1 ZenHashlet (10mhs scrypt), It was paying about 5000 sats daily and
it started paying only 1 sat daily right after hashpoint conversion to XPY and XPY release.
That is definetly scam.

GAW and LTCgear has fellow cult members, I won't feel sorry for them at all.

You have Hashnest as a legit company on your list, but I have to warn you about their customer support.
It sucks and they never care to interact with their customers.
You should add a customer care evaluation in this scam measurement.

You don't get your payments at hashnest, you got no one to complain or ask for help there.
Go check their talk and see the unanswered "I didn't get paid" treads.

Be also careful about legit companies, if BTC price keeps going down and difficulty up, they might unintentionally turn into loss as well.



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cyberpinoy on December 29, 2014, 12:47:11 AM
Ponzi schemes developed, and should be added number 8
Hashprofit now asking money for sending them a message (0.03 BTC!). And if you see there are no connection between message and payment.
You just pay and... message goes somewhere or maybe not... Don't be fooled.

yep, It doesn't look good:

"Our service was under the most severe attack ever. Due to most specialists' holidays we've decided for a reliable safety of users' funds to suspend site's work until the first Monday of 2015 (5th of January). Everybody will return to standard work then and we'll continue our work in a usual way. Please be calm. Thank you for understanding.

To keep contact with our users and to separate priority mail from spam, we've developed mail accepting via BTC payments. For guaranteed processing of your message you'll have to pay small amount through an interface below.

We've successfully deflected serious threats and attacks on our service earlier and we're sure that together we can do this even in a situation this hard."


I am certainly no fan of Puppet, however, did anyone notice anythig really funny or contradicting about thier message? So they say thier people who can handle the DDOS attack are on holiday until january 5th. However they just so happened to have a person hanging around who could completely recode their index.html page as well as code a second page using Java script, MySql and PHP that will accept payments in order for you to recieve satisfactory customer service from any complaints you may have.

I pray to god no one was stupid enough to send thier BTC and file a formal message with these idiots.

The person who spent 9+ hours re-coding their site could have very easily and quickly ended the DDOS attack. it takes a lot less intelligence to stop a DDOS attack than it does to rewrite and completely re-code an Index.html with a button to a second page that also accepts payments and code that whole page.

Thank god I already got my ROI from these guys :) Good luck tho those of you who put a massive amount of BTC with these scammers, you should have checked their WHOIS which is completely whois guarded. and the registrar is enom and the phone number they ahd displayed was for Enom abuse not to anyone involved in HAshprofit.

Puppet do you use anything from whois in your predictions?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cyberpinoy on December 29, 2014, 01:11:45 AM
Ye i actually can prove this part and here is your proof. of how you buy Cloud mining and lose money on cex.io this is pulled directly from my account there.

2014-12-13 11:22:30   -0.00010634 BTC   -0.00007886    MAINTENANCE   -   Shares 216576 , Cost: -0.00010634
2014-12-13 11:22:30    0.00005109 BTC   0.00002748    MINING   -   Block #334075, Reward: 0.00005109

2014-12-13 07:09:50   -0.00007693 BTC   -0.00010046    MAINTENANCE   -   Shares 156672 , Cost: -0.00007693
2014-12-13 07:09:50    0.00005014 BTC   -0.00002353    MINING   -   Block #334049, Reward: 0.00005014

2014-12-13 05:20:47   -0.00011816 BTC   -0.00007367    MAINTENANCE   -   Shares 240640 , Cost: -0.00011816
2014-12-13 05:20:47    0.00004888 BTC   0.00004449    MINING   -   Block #334038, Reward: 0.00004888

2014-12-13 02:36:42   -0.00006185 BTC   -0.00000439    MAINTENANCE   -   Shares 125952 , Cost: -0.00006185
2014-12-13 02:36:42    0.00004143 BTC   0.00005746    MINING   -   Block #334031, Reward: 0.00004143

This is just a few blocks do you need more how about different sized hashrates o their cloud. how much do you need. do you see the rewards are lower than the fees. THIS IS NOT EVER POSSIBLE UNLESS YOUR RIPPING PEOPLE OFF some of them have fees that are doube and truiple what the reward was OMG SCAM!!!

Dude.. do you see the "shares" count? Thats how long it took the pool to find the block. To use a highly technical term: "luck".
cex.io fees are defined in dollars and per GH per month. From the above its clear those fees are calculated per block on each block. If a block took twice as long as average, you'd expect to pay twice as many on fees. If a block takes half the average time, you'd expect to see half the average fee. Reward remains the same (ignoring variations in transaction fees), and therefore long unlucky blocks will yield a negative return, short, lucky blocks will yield a positive return. This is completely normal.

What could indicate fraud is if the average length is statistically (very) unlikely. But its not according to the man who should know:
http://organofcorti.blogspot.be/2014/12/december-7th-2014-weekly-bitcoin_10.html
http://organofcorti.blogspot.be/2014/12/december-14th-2014-bitcoin-mining-pool.html

An unlucky week, but a CDF of 88% is completely within the expected range. Or do you think slush (72%) and bitminter (78%) and eligius (77%) are also scamming and even more than cex ?

Here is the thing: if organofcorti tells me cex.io numbers dont add up, I wont hesitate for a second to change my view, but when someone who doesnt understand the first thing about this, hasnt even realized his dragon miners are costing him a fortune because you cant do a long division, if someone like that makes gratuitous  claims, I will gladly ignore that.


I am so sorry I should have read your reply.

And this is why YOU should not be making assumptions or predictions based solely on opinion. The "shares" that you see there are NOT how long it took the "Pool" to solve the block, the "Shares" you see in that example are MY cloud shares that were submitted by ME. Please PLEASE tell me you were not so stupid to think that a bitcoin block today si only 216576 Shares You said and I quote

"Dude.. do you see the "shares" count? Thats how long it took the pool to find the block."

this is why your view on CEX.io is messed up, you dont even know what you are reading.

Again pay attention CEX fees may be defined in USD but they are charged in shares submitted which is way more than the 10cents per GHS per month they claim. Hell in those 4 blocks right there I already have 11 cents USD in fees ADD IT UP that was only for 4 of the 40 blocks (average) per day they solve. They say 10 cents per GHS per month heck they are charging almost 3 cents per block and roughly 11 dollars a day and on long blocks like 6 hours or more you are paying the whole 10 cents per ghash in that 1 block solved. so from the math we see here we can estimate 50 GHS of cloud mining will cost you 363 USD a month in fees. that is $7.26 USD per month per GHS.

you should expect to recieve 2/3 of the reward the machines bring in and pay 1/3 in fees roughly.

You need to do some better research on these guys bro and start understanding what you are reading. I recommend you get an account and study it, cause the shit your basing your opinion on is waaaay offf from whats really going on in there.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: PeaMine on December 29, 2014, 03:05:33 AM
I was very excited and eager to get into cloud mining, but after reading this thread I'm full of dread.
Is there a cloud mining service you'd recommend that can accept credit cards?
Hashnest looks profitable but only accepts bitcoin which I'm very low on these days.
AMHash is sold out it seems, but they also look good.
Genesis Mining takes cards, but from their fees and pricing looks like it would be a bad deal compared to the rest.
KnC may be a good choice, but not sure if they take cards or not.
Any recommendations?



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: elrugrim on December 29, 2014, 03:38:01 AM
Thank you for working on this.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: inBitweTrust on December 29, 2014, 04:54:37 AM
yep , Hashie.co was another scam....

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=822446.1400


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Muhammed Zakir on December 29, 2014, 08:07:21 AM
I was very excited and eager to get into cloud mining, but after reading this thread I'm full of dread.
Is there a cloud mining service you'd recommend that can accept credit cards?
Hashnest looks profitable but only accepts bitcoin which I'm very low on these days.
AMHash is sold out it seems, but they also look good.
Genesis Mining takes cards, but from their fees and pricing looks like it would be a bad deal compared to the rest.
KnC may be a good choice, but not sure if they take cards or not.
Any recommendations?


I think ZeusHash is pretty good - accepts credit cards/bank transfers and knC Cloud accepts USD bank transfer.

   ~~MZ~~


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: mmmaybe on December 29, 2014, 09:20:21 AM
Thanks for an important thread, I'll be following and contributing where I can :)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: julian071 on December 29, 2014, 10:19:36 AM
I was very excited and eager to get into cloud mining, but after reading this thread I'm full of dread.
Is there a cloud mining service you'd recommend that can accept credit cards?
Hashnest looks profitable but only accepts bitcoin which I'm very low on these days.
AMHash is sold out it seems, but they also look good.
Genesis Mining takes cards, but from their fees and pricing looks like it would be a bad deal compared to the rest.
KnC may be a good choice, but not sure if they take cards or not.
Any recommendations?


I think ZeusHash is pretty good - accepts credit cards/bank transfers and knC Cloud accepts USD bank transfer.

   ~~MZ~~

Zeushash is totally inprofitable tho. I have some hashing there because I ordered a replacement IC-board for my miner that never materialised, and (stupidly) opted to convert that to cloudmining when they officialy cancelled it. The fees are so high that I consider that money lost, even though it is in SHA256. Luckily it was a relatively small amount, however it would have been spent much better giving it to some charity.

ATM the fees at Genesis are about 30%. As Puppet has pointed out many times, if difficulty rises a lot you will stop making money on your contract with the fees being what they are. But at the moment it's profitable, about 0,27 BTC / TH / month. Check the thread for Genesis-mining for updates on their profitability.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 29, 2014, 10:55:58 AM

And this is why YOU should not be making assumptions or predictions based solely on opinion
.

I dont. All my criteria are explicitly stated and applied as objectively as I can. Its not a matter of 'opinion', either the evidence is there, or its not.

Quote
The "shares" that you see there are NOT how long it took the "Pool" to solve the block, the "Shares" you see in that example are MY cloud shares that were submitted by ME. Please PLEASE tell me you were not so stupid to think that a bitcoin block today si only 216576 Shares You said and I quote

A block can be found after any arbitrary number of accepted shares, it all depends on network difficulty, the difficulty setting of the pool and :drumroll: LUCK.
What you still fail to understand is that your # submitted shares will correlate linearly with the  # shares the pool needed to find the block, assuming roughly constant hashrate. So what I said is still completely ttrue, and if you are going to insult me after the nonsense you have been posting, I suggest you start your own thread where you provide proof that organofcorti and me have no idea what we're talking about.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: EBK1000 on December 29, 2014, 11:04:07 AM
I like this thread, thank you Puppet

Zeushash has stopped Mh/S Scrypt as the fees are more than the earnings as they are using Gridseeds etc. everyone that had Scrypt at Zeushash has lost their investment, me included


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: EBK1000 on December 29, 2014, 11:07:32 AM
I am interested in contributing to this thread as I have tried multiple cloud services over the last few months. I will write some short reviews and post it here...


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 29, 2014, 12:28:16 PM
I am interested in contributing to this thread as I have tried multiple cloud services over the last few months. I will write some short reviews and post it here...

Please dont. Im not interesting in hearing how well ponzi's work prior to their collapse. Its meaningless.
Unless you discovered some evidence of scamming, keep you "experience" to yourself.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: bitode on December 29, 2014, 01:43:31 PM
Quote
2. No endorsement from any asic vendor

You claim that Zeushash has no endorsement from asic vendor, but they owned by Zeus miner and they are a asic miner vendor. Zeus miner's website has a direct link to Zeushash on top navigation in their website: https://zeusminer.com/

Also Cointellect uses Zeus miners as their very first pictures from their datacenter shows:

https://www.facebook.com/cointellectturkiye/photos/pb.334666763367284.-2207520000.1419858547./355357207964906/?type=3&theater

Additionally they also mentioned that they are using LKETC and Zeus in their news which was published on 18th of September: https://cointellect.com/news/view/?id=14

Even http://dc.cointellect.com broadcasts from LKETC's datacenter as they broadcasts their servers which hosts A1 hosted contracts.

So I think number 2 should be dropped for Cointellect and Zeushash.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: EBK1000 on December 29, 2014, 02:32:13 PM
It's amazing how fucking grumpy everyone is here, I will surely not share any knowledge of any scams if I find them


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: raskul on December 29, 2014, 02:41:38 PM
It's amazing how fucking grumpy everyone is here, I will surely not share any knowledge of any scams if I find them

you already said that you have invested in more than one. which means you wouldn't be able to tell a ponzi if it came along and bit you on your backside.
there aren't many which are actually genuine and i'd reckon that at least one of those that you have invested is a pure ponzi.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 29, 2014, 03:45:20 PM
Quote
2. No endorsement from any asic vendor

You claim that Zeushash has no endorsement from asic vendor, but they owned by Zeus miner and they are a asic miner vendor. Zeus miner's website has a direct link to Zeushash on top navigation in their website: https://zeusminer.com/

Zeusminer isnt a manufacturer of sha256 hardware, afaict its (allegedly) a reseller.

Quote
Also Cointellect uses Zeus miners as their very first pictures from their datacenter shows:

See above.
Besides, Ive already granted them the point "3" for pictures/video of their installation, but it wasnt based on the ones you linked.

Quote
Additionally they also mentioned that they are using LKETC and Zeus in their news which was published on 18th of September: https://cointellect.com/news/view/?id=14

Even http://dc.cointellect.com broadcasts from LKETC's datacenter as they broadcasts their servers which hosts A1 hosted contracts.

Claiming to use some particular hardware doesnt score you any points in my rating. Having the manufacturer endorse you as a large customer, does.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: eneloop on December 29, 2014, 03:48:06 PM
Quote
[...] you should have checked their WHOIS which is completely whois guarded. and the registrar is enom and the phone number they ahd displayed was for Enom abuse not to anyone involved in HAshprofit.

Puppet do you use anything from whois in your predictions?
It's in #6, but I agree to handle whois guarded services more critical. I don't see any reason to publish business information on one side but use some kind of whois guard on the other. I would even go a step further and tag all of them as scammers because only whois gives an official relationship from a website to a company.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 29, 2014, 03:55:15 PM
Quote
[...] you should have checked their WHOIS which is completely whois guarded. and the registrar is enom and the phone number they ahd displayed was for Enom abuse not to anyone involved in HAshprofit.

Puppet do you use anything from whois in your predictions?
It's in #6, but I agree to handle whois guarded services more critical. I don't see any reason to publish business information on one side but use some kind of whois guard on the other. I would even go a step further and tag all of them as scammers because only whois gives an official relationship from a website to a company.

Yeah, its tricky. In general, if a verifiable business address is posted (that doesnt belong to a 'vrtiual presence' provider) and as long as no one reports the address is fake/abandoned/empty, I tend to grant that point, sometimes reluctantly like for hashprofit,  regardless of whois. After all, whois info can be faked just as well, whoisguard is turned on by default by some hosting companies. So by itself its not a smoking gun, but its an element I take in to consideration when judging point #6.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cyberpinoy on December 29, 2014, 08:25:52 PM

And this is why YOU should not be making assumptions or predictions based solely on opinion
.

I dont. All my criteria are explicitly stated and applied as objectively as I can. Its not a matter of 'opinion', either the evidence is there, or its not.

Quote
The "shares" that you see there are NOT how long it took the "Pool" to solve the block, the "Shares" you see in that example are MY cloud shares that were submitted by ME. Please PLEASE tell me you were not so stupid to think that a bitcoin block today si only 216576 Shares You said and I quote

A block can be found after any arbitrary number of accepted shares, it all depends on network difficulty, the difficulty setting of the pool and :drumroll: LUCK.
What you still fail to understand is that your # submitted shares will correlate linearly with the  # shares the pool needed to find the block, assuming roughly constant hashrate. So what I said is still completely ttrue, and if you are going to insult me after the nonsense you have been posting, I suggest you start your own thread where you provide proof that organofcorti and me have no idea what we're talking about.

You really need to study Ghash a LOT better.

The number of shares you see can correlate any way you want to rationalize it but the truth is those are the shares I was charged a maintenance fee on. I was not charged a flat rate per ghs per month as they state in their contractual agreement. those examples show you i submitted X number of shares and my maintenance fees are determined by the amount of shares my cloud put in. If this were not true would not each and every block mined have the same EXACT same cost in maintenance fees? If it was a flat rate charge per GHS per month, like they say, then each block should have the same exact fee right?

To be honest it would be hard to be fair and charge the same amount for each block because you dont know how many blocks could be solved i a month and they would still end up charging more than the flat rate they say they charge. I am not sure how they could do it to make it fair and reasonable, but what they are doing now is a flat faced lie and contradiction to their own agreement.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 29, 2014, 08:39:08 PM
FFS.. No. Of course not. Its not rocket science. You pay $x per month flat fee. A month is a unit of time. Actual fees are then appropriated per block.  So if a block takes 2x longer to mine than average, you would expect to pay 2x more in fees on that block, because it took twice as long. and vice versa, a block thats found in half the average time will only cost you half as much in fees. Because the fees you pay per time unit, not per block. I already explained this to you several times and this is my last reply to you. Your inability to do math and comprehend simple concepts doesnt make cex.io a scam. Please take this elsewhere.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: julian071 on December 29, 2014, 11:00:07 PM
There's still the discussion wether the ponzi's that collapsed in recent days were doing fractional reserve mining or no mining at all. First clue is that their demise most probably did not make a big dent in the global hashrate.
https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fbitcoinwisdom.com%2Fassets%2Fdifficulty%2Fbitcoin-hash_rate-all.png%3F1419880503&t=547&c=RMwUk32mVxElxg


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on December 29, 2014, 11:34:49 PM
I told you so, we have an avalanche of collapsed ponzis ;) btw if they were really mining the miners would be not affected and working as usual.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jaybow on December 29, 2014, 11:57:53 PM
I like this thread, thank you Puppet

Zeushash has stopped Mh/S Scrypt as the fees are more than the earnings as they are using Gridseeds etc. everyone that had Scrypt at Zeushash has lost their investment, me included

Where is that news that Zeus stopped MH/s Scrypt? I can still see the possibility to buy MH/s on their website, both as such and in 'TwinHash'?



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: julian071 on December 30, 2014, 12:07:02 AM
I told you so, we have an avalanche of collapsed ponzis ;) btw if they were really mining the miners would be not affected and working as usual.

Aw, 'mining the miners' is a very poignant metaphore :/


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BombaUcigasa on December 30, 2014, 12:19:28 AM
There's still the discussion wether the ponzi's that collapsed in recent days were doing fractional reserve mining or no mining at all. First clue is that their demise most probably did not make a big dent in the global hashrate.
That's because the hashrate was fake.

Worst thing so far, they will not all explode before Bitcoin resumes expansion and your sites will still be filled with shitty scammy adverts for cloud hashing.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on December 30, 2014, 12:59:53 AM
I told you so, we have an avalanche of collapsed ponzis ;) btw if they were really mining the hardware would be not affected and working as usual.

Aw, 'mining the miners' is a very poignant metaphore :/
I meant the hardware ;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: julian071 on December 30, 2014, 01:24:14 AM
I told you so, we have an avalanche of collapsed ponzis ;) btw if they were really mining the hardware would be not affected and working as usual.

Aw, 'mining the miners' is a very poignant metaphore :/
I meant the hardware ;)

Hehe well still well put!


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on December 30, 2014, 01:26:30 AM
I told you so, we have an avalanche of collapsed ponzis ;) btw if they were really mining the hardware they were using would be not affected and working as usual.

Aw, 'mining the miners' is a very poignant metaphore :/
I meant the hardware ;)

Hehe well still wel put!
I have improved it again ;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jedi108 on December 30, 2014, 02:57:13 AM
Thank you for this post.

Please, add to this https://www.cryptsy.com cloud mining too

Quote
Consolidated Mining Specifications

140 Th/s Total Mining Power
No term - continues until it no longer produces
1.0 Unit = 1.167 Gh/s
Total Shares Available: 120,000
Daily Mining Payouts Directly To Your Cryptsy Balance

About MN - https://www.cryptsy.com/currencies/view/260
Market MN/BTC - https://www.cryptsy.com/markets/view/MN_BTC


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: KingTylerVVS on December 30, 2014, 04:55:39 AM
case and point - do not buy cloud mining. Period. Ever. Just save your bitcoins, buy physical miners if you like, and WORK for your money. Create real value for society. Cannot get something for nothing, do not let ANYONE convince you to part with your money.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 30, 2014, 08:44:50 AM
Thank you for this post.

Please, add to this https://www.cryptsy.com cloud mining too

Quote
Consolidated Mining Specifications

140 Th/s Total Mining Power
No term - continues until it no longer produces
1.0 Unit = 1.167 Gh/s
Total Shares Available: 120,000
Daily Mining Payouts Directly To Your Cryptsy Balance

About MN - https://www.cryptsy.com/currencies/view/260
Market MN/BTC - https://www.cryptsy.com/markets/view/MN_BTC



Thanks, didnt know about that one. At first glance only 1+2+3 seem to apply.  Anything else I should know?



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: virtapayseller666 on December 30, 2014, 10:02:51 AM
read this about why site down  http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2qpao3/hashprofit_is_down_ddos_attack_or_scam/

https://hashprofit.com/ RIP Site down

new Scam


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Muhammed Zakir on December 30, 2014, 10:10:01 AM
read this about why site down  http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2qpao3/hashprofit_is_down_ddos_attack_or_scam/

https://hashprofit.com/ RIP Site down

new Scam

Site is still up but they changed HTTPS to HTTP. ::)

   ~~MZ~~


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: etnak on December 30, 2014, 12:48:21 PM
Another ponzi site that went down this week is coins-miners.com


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on December 30, 2014, 12:56:49 PM
They are dropping like flies;) Next!


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: whitewhidow on December 30, 2014, 01:27:31 PM
puppet. you have anything invested somewhere?  if so, where ?

im ssoooooo tired of this scamming bs ..


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: inBitweTrust on December 30, 2014, 01:30:55 PM
puppet. you have anything invested somewhere?  if so, where ?

im ssoooooo tired of this scamming bs ..

You are better off refusing to participate in cloud mining, buying BTC directly, and pressuring ASIC manufactures to lower prices and behave more responsibly.

Here are ways you should store your bitcoins :

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=858604.0


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 30, 2014, 01:32:47 PM
puppet. you have anything invested somewhere?  if so, where ?

I sure have.
I own a non trivial amount of bitcoins, most of which in a cold wallet.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Dilemma on December 30, 2014, 01:35:21 PM
Another ponzi site that went down this week is coins-miners.com
it is not a new
they didnt pay for last two weeks
they are scammer..


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: whitewhidow on December 30, 2014, 01:37:16 PM
im thinking of just buying the hw myself...   as i got access to "free" (nothing in life is free) electricity..

just not 100% sure if its even worth the effort of gathering funds ..


many lessons learned regarding cloud mining. thses last days ..

and atleast i know i wont turn into a freaking puzzle at some point. hashie. sorry. i sneezed


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BTCXE on December 30, 2014, 01:42:04 PM

hashcoin.com         ~1+2+3+4+7          => 5/7 = (very) suspicious (user selectable pool requires fee, dc pictures show no miners, linkedin profile doctored, hardware sales very dubious,..)


I would ask you to reconsider Hashcoins - i'm sure they would be glad to hold a Skype call with you to show the office, miners and answer any queries or suspicions you may have


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: raskul on December 30, 2014, 01:43:48 PM

hashcoin.com         ~1+2+3+4+7          => 5/7 = (very) suspicious (user selectable pool requires fee, dc pictures show no miners, linkedin profile doctored, hardware sales very dubious,..)


I would ask you to reconsider Hashcoins - i'm sure they would be glad to hold a Skype call with you to show the office, miners and answer any queries or suspicions you may have

This should be publicly visible.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: inBitweTrust on December 30, 2014, 01:45:15 PM

hashcoin.com         ~1+2+3+4+7          => 5/7 = (very) suspicious (user selectable pool requires fee, dc pictures show no miners, linkedin profile doctored, hardware sales very dubious,..)


I would ask you to reconsider Hashcoins - i'm sure they would be glad to hold a Skype call with you to show the office, miners and answer any queries or suspicions you may have

Any company is free to address the community concerns directly with the public and we will update our reporting shortly after. There is no need for private Skype calls, they should just be more transparent and post the information on their website or here directly.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 30, 2014, 02:28:07 PM
I would ask you to reconsider Hashcoins - i'm sure they would be glad to hold a Skype call with you to show the office, miners and answer any queries or suspicions you may have

I just did reconsider, and, actually changed their entry. It should be hashcoins.com not hashcoin :)
As for the actual score, Im pleased to see so many others are getting the hang of it. Indeed, I dont want private skype calls, I want public evidence that everyone can scrutinize. If they can show it to me on skype, surely they can upload it to youtube?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BTCXE on December 30, 2014, 02:55:56 PM
I would ask you to reconsider Hashcoins - i'm sure they would be glad to hold a Skype call with you to show the office, miners and answer any queries or suspicions you may have

I just did reconsider, and, actually changed their entry. It should be hashcoins.com not hashcoin :)
As for the actual score, Im pleased to see so many others are getting the hang of it. Indeed, I dont want private skype calls, I want public evidence that everyone can scrutinize. If they can show it to me on skype, surely they can upload it to youtube?


absolutely fair point.

the only thing you can accuse them is being content poor, but their channel already shows demonstrates mining equipment, test and also how their developed control panel works.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC062LHKu8m84CZwCHNbGE0w

I was just referring in terms of cloud-mining in particular. Would you want to see the all the miners at work ?

I dont have any affiliation with Hashcoins, aside from my ex-classmate working for them and me doing some business with them in the past. However, they are a full-scale company and provide a full range of mining services from hardware orders to remote hosting to cloudmining


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: inBitweTrust on December 30, 2014, 03:18:15 PM
I was just referring in terms of cloud-mining in particular. Would you want to see the all the miners at work ?

hashcoins.com         ~1+2+3+4+7          => 5/7 = (very) suspicious (user selectable pool requires fee, dc pictures show no miners, linkedin profile doctored, hardware sales very dubious,..)


2 miners doesn't cut it, any kid in their mothers basement can have that. To remove number 3 above they need to have a least a few pictures of the datacenter with rows of miners or a video walk through of showing their complete capacity.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BTCXE on December 30, 2014, 03:42:15 PM
I was just referring in terms of cloud-mining in particular. Would you want to see the all the miners at work ?

hashcoins.com         ~1+2+3+4+7          => 5/7 = (very) suspicious (user selectable pool requires fee, dc pictures show no miners, linkedin profile doctored, hardware sales very dubious,..)


2 miners doesn't cut it, any kid in their mothers basement can have that. To remove number 3 above they need to have a least a few pictures of the datacenter with rows of miners or a video walk through of showing their complete capacity.

Considered. Valid point. Will pass on to relevant channels.
You have to understand though that any kid in their mothers basement would not create a business, brand, website in 2 languages, an office and write their own control panel and send order to at least ten customers who already received thei gear and posted about it here.

In your defence though, I think HashCoins management should welcome all skepticism and work to resolving it in a professional manner rather than stooping to the low level of trolling and arguing on boards.

Hence, I urge:

1) the community to express its concerns in a direct, non-accusational way
2) the HashCoins team to address those with proof demanded by the community (and put even more emphasis on developing trust)
and
3) the moderators to keep a lid on it and ensure that dialogue goes in a polite and efficient manner



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: inBitweTrust on December 30, 2014, 04:06:29 PM
You have to understand though that any kid in their mothers basement would not create a business, brand, website in 2 languages, an office and write their own control panel and send order to at least ten customers who already received thei gear and posted about it here.

Disagree. This has been done before and isn't hard to pull off. If anything Puppet and the rest of us should be stricter and add more tests of solvency.


Hence, I urge:
1) the community to express its concerns in a direct, non-accusational way
2) the HashCoins team to address those with proof demanded by the community (and put even more emphasis on developing trust)
and
3) the moderators to keep a lid on it and ensure that dialogue goes in a polite and efficient manner

Yes, except for that last part, there is no need for censorship. At this stage in the game with the amount of scandals, any company that comes forward that isn't immediately transparent is an insult to our community and deserves the criticism it gets. If they cannot handle healthy criticism professionally they are showing their immaturity and one should be careful.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BTCXE on December 30, 2014, 04:16:39 PM
You have to understand though that any kid in their mothers basement would not create a business, brand, website in 2 languages, an office and write their own control panel and send order to at least ten customers who already received thei gear and posted about it here.

Disagree. This has been done before and isn't hard to pull off. If anything Puppet and the rest of us should be stricter and add more tests of solvency.


Hence, I urge:
1) the community to express its concerns in a direct, non-accusational way
2) the HashCoins team to address those with proof demanded by the community (and put even more emphasis on developing trust)
and
3) the moderators to keep a lid on it and ensure that dialogue goes in a polite and efficient manner

Yes, except for that last part, there is no need for censorship. At this stage in the game with the amount of scandals, any company that comes forward that isn't immediately transparent is an insult to our community and deserves the criticism it gets. If they cannot handle healthy criticism professionally they are showing their immaturity and one should be careful.

Thanks, im glad we agreed, and no I wasn't talking about censorship, I was just talking about a clear format of discussion with respect on both sides of the argument (Reddit-style AMA's come to mind)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Grinder on December 30, 2014, 05:29:55 PM
the only thing you can accuse them is being content poor, but their channel already shows demonstrates mining equipment, test and also how their developed control panel works.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC062LHKu8m84CZwCHNbGE0w
Why do you think they made a video of a manipulated image which gives the impression that they have much more mining equipment than they really do? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=878387.msg9867087#msg9867087

They are scammers, and it's a ponzi. There's no point in being polite about it.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on December 30, 2014, 05:42:39 PM
the only thing you can accuse them is being content poor, but their channel already shows demonstrates mining equipment, test and also how their developed control panel works.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC062LHKu8m84CZwCHNbGE0w
Why do you think they made a video of a manipulated image which gives the impression that they have much more mining equipment than they really do? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=878387.msg9867087#msg9867087

They are scammers, and it's a ponzi. There's no point in being polite about it.
Hashprofit and Hashcoins are different companies.

Hashcoins is a reseller and system integrator of mining hardware who by all accounts has made and sold products. They posted up some impossible stats on a new miner (that no one has seen) and when questioned it posted a doctored cgminer screenshot. I would assume that is why Puppet has listed their hardware sales as questionable.

They also have a cloud mining operation, but have no provided any proof they have a significant amount of hardware to back it up.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BTCXE on December 30, 2014, 08:47:29 PM
the only thing you can accuse them is being content poor, but their channel already shows demonstrates mining equipment, test and also how their developed control panel works.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC062LHKu8m84CZwCHNbGE0w
Why do you think they made a video of a manipulated image which gives the impression that they have much more mining equipment than they really do? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=878387.msg9867087#msg9867087

They are scammers, and it's a ponzi. There's no point in being polite about it.
Hashprofit and Hashcoins are different companies.

Hashcoins is a reseller and system integrator of mining hardware who by all accounts has made and sold products. They posted up some impossible stats on a new miner (that no one has seen) and when questioned it posted a doctored cgminer screenshot. I would assume that is why Puppet has listed their hardware sales as questionable.

They also have a cloud mining operation, but have no provided any proof they have a significant amount of hardware to back it up.

thank you for clearing it up before i would have lost it due to Grinder's ignorance. As i said, I will speak to the guys at HC and will persuade them to put more effort into delivering content that will prove just how serious a business they are.

In the meantime, keep constructive questions coming and keep unbased accusations quiet

and PS. ask the guys who received their orders about the gear. All these accusations yet NOT ONE person has ended up out of pocket


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Grinder on December 30, 2014, 10:10:15 PM
Sorry about the confusion. I'll grant you that the price seems expensive enough that there's a chance they are legitimate. The drawback of that is that the rise in difficulty will most likely make it a losing investment.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BTCXE on December 30, 2014, 10:14:17 PM
Sorry about the confusion. I'll grant you that the price seems expensive enough that there's a chance they are legitimate. The drawback of that is that the rise in difficulty will most likely make it a losing investment.
no problem, just understand that is TOTALLY different from "Its a ponzi scheme, run away". Rising difficulty and dropping BTC price will make mining a losing investment for EVERYONE


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on December 30, 2014, 10:20:45 PM
"Its a ponzi scheme, run away".

And yet thats exactly how you should treat any cloudmining service for as long as they have not proven their legitimacy.
There is no risk in avoiding a company that later turns out to be legit. The same cant be said from the opposite.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BTCXE on December 31, 2014, 12:29:25 AM
"Its a ponzi scheme, run away".

And yet thats exactly how you should treat any cloudmining service for as long as they have not proven their legitimacy.
There is no risk in avoiding a company that later turns out to be legit. The same cant be said from the opposite.

Sorry, didnt see your profile read "scambuster", just thought you were belligerent for the hell of it.

This industry needs people like yourself to separate the fresh eggs from the rot, so credit to you for your forceful vigilance. In any case, HC will be launching cloudservice & all supporting materials / content soon enough.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: KingTylerVVS on December 31, 2014, 01:35:54 AM
great, I just lost my last .110 btc on c-cex. Their wallet now in "maintenance mode" just as I deposited. I think I am done with bitcoin after this. ALL scammers. Nothing but scammers, every fucking exchange and cloud mining company. They all deserve to die.

I earn 20¢ an hour... TWENTY FUCKING PENNIES AN HOUR.

I cannot and will not even try anymore to get a job. There are no jobs left in America. The economy is dead.

And im getting robbed by millionaires. Time to turn into a vigilante.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: whitewhidow on December 31, 2014, 10:19:19 AM
great, I just lost my last .110 btc on c-cex. Their wallet now in "maintenance mode" just as I deposited. I think I am done with bitcoin after this. ALL scammers. Nothing but scammers, every fucking exchange and cloud mining company. They all deserve to die.

I earn 20¢ an hour... TWENTY FUCKING PENNIES AN HOUR.

I cannot and will not even try anymore to get a job. There are no jobs left in America. The economy is dead.

And im getting robbed by millionaires. Time to turn into a vigilante.


im not from the US.   but seriously. no more jobs?  hahaha


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: KingTylerVVS on December 31, 2014, 04:14:28 PM
great, I just lost my last .110 btc on c-cex. Their wallet now in "maintenance mode" just as I deposited. I think I am done with bitcoin after this. ALL scammers. Nothing but scammers, every fucking exchange and cloud mining company. They all deserve to die.

I earn 20¢ an hour... TWENTY FUCKING PENNIES AN HOUR.

I cannot and will not even try anymore to get a job. There are no jobs left in America. The economy is dead.

And im getting robbed by millionaires. Time to turn into a vigilante.


im not from the US.   but seriously. no more jobs?  hahaha



Look what our own military has planned for us: http://www.deagel.com/country/forecast.aspx (http://www.deagel.com/country/forecast.aspx) they will kill about 240 million americans in the next 10 years. Our true employment ratio right now? 60% unemployment. USA is quickly being turned into a 3rd world country by the rich and powerful elite. Look up the georgia guidestones. They took out the wealth of the middle class, now they are setting up concentration camps for us all and it's going to be a blood bath. DO RESEARCH - USA is one of the worst countries in the world to live in right now save for a few others. High chance of being unemployed and just waiting for an impending doom. Fuck the new world order


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: whitewhidow on December 31, 2014, 04:18:05 PM
great, I just lost my last .110 btc on c-cex. Their wallet now in "maintenance mode" just as I deposited. I think I am done with bitcoin after this. ALL scammers. Nothing but scammers, every fucking exchange and cloud mining company. They all deserve to die.

I earn 20¢ an hour... TWENTY FUCKING PENNIES AN HOUR.

I cannot and will not even try anymore to get a job. There are no jobs left in America. The economy is dead.

And im getting robbed by millionaires. Time to turn into a vigilante.


im not from the US.   but seriously. no more jobs?  hahaha



Look what our own military has planned for us: http://www.deagel.com/country/forecast.aspx (http://www.deagel.com/country/forecast.aspx) they will kill about 240 million americans in the next 10 years. Our true employment ratio right now? 60% unemployment. USA is quickly being turned into a 3rd world country by the rich and powerful elite. Look up the georgia guidestones. They took out the wealth of the middle class, now they are setting up concentration camps for us all and it's going to be a blood bath. DO RESEARCH - USA is one of the worst countries in the world to live in right now save for a few others. High chance of being unemployed and just waiting for an impending doom. Fuck the new world order


Im sure that all true what you say, but comon, if you WANT to get a job, there is SOMETHING to do, it might be a shitty job, and it might suck, but really there is SOMETHING to do for more then 20 pennies per hour ...   im sure theres alot of SHITTY jobs that are not getting filled, that actually pay pretty good aswell, or atleast more then 20cents per hour ..

EDIT, i removed the question mark on the end of this, lets not make this thread about something else ..


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on December 31, 2014, 05:32:19 PM
Im sure that all true what you say, but comon, if you WANT to get a job, there is SOMETHING to do, it might be a shitty job, and it might suck, but really there is SOMETHING to do for more then 20 pennies per hour ...   im sure theres alot of SHITTY jobs that are not getting filled, that actually pay pretty good aswell, or atleast more then 20cents per hour ..

EDIT, i removed the question mark on the end of this, lets not make this thread about something else ..
Just stop responding to him. This is a guy who believes in 10 years the US GDP will be under $1T and all but 70 million people will be gone because someone on the internet said so. Quoting him makes everyone else's ignore function work less efficiently.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: bilabonic on December 31, 2014, 06:22:57 PM
JUst had a message of a mate you states that -

http://pbmining.com/

is still paying out with no problems ??


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ltcgearscammed on December 31, 2014, 06:30:54 PM
Hello everyone!

Being scammed feels horrible and I hate myself for being fooled by some assholes. That's why I want to find them. All I want right now is to find them at any cost. I even willing to give a small reward in btc, if someone finds a lot of info about them. I know it is really hard for getting my money back or even finding them. But I don't want to let this go. I am quite sure that there are quite a few people in the same place as I am, who might want to participate in the chase or in increasing the reward.

I should have suspected the fact he hasn't posted any pictures of his farm even if he said he would, the fact that paypal canceled his subscription, the fact that he is not even using a btc processor like BitPay etc, the fact that he offers a 8% discount for those who pay in btc, when it is actually the only way to pay him, 49% discount to turn your profits in shares, ROI 2-3 months, no Blockchain verification (at least I don't know if he is verified), no public mining addresses and his Whois address http://whois.domaintools.com/ltcgear.com . If anyone is able to track them, by any means please do it and I will reward you. However I didn't do any research before I went straight into the catch. 3 People that I knew, mentioned the good ROI and the fact that they were satisfied + the fact that they weren't constantly 'selling' shares made me think that they are legit.

I want to gather enough information about Chris. Even if people think that he will return, we could still gather as much information as we can and also create a plan in case he takes our money and runs away. This call is for people that send him money through PayPal, for people who traded physical miners with him and especially those who send their stuff back to him, for people who have talked with him over the phone, VoIP or have any social network account. For them who have received referral payments. People who have send him Btc and he still hasn't withdrawn them from the deposit addresses. People that know any possible mining addresses.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jaybow on December 31, 2014, 08:06:50 PM
JUst had a message of a mate you states that -

http://pbmining.com/

is still paying out with no problems ??
Well yes, they are still paying, but only a fraction (about 0.1 %) of what they are supposed to.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: zamaliphe on December 31, 2014, 09:49:44 PM
thanks for the great info I’m using this as source when i'm trying to find cloud mining


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: baristor on January 01, 2015, 07:26:17 AM
quik update hashprofit already down :D


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ravix5 on January 01, 2015, 07:26:48 AM
ltcgear its ponzi / collapsing



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jimmothy on January 01, 2015, 08:12:17 AM
You're missing an 8 for gawminers. (guaranteed profit)

Also can you share which relevant pictures of GAW's datacenter you've seen? I've seen what amounts to a few % of the total hashrate they claim to have. (they were claiming 40+ PH/s last month)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 01, 2015, 08:34:22 AM
You're missing an 8 for gawminers. (guaranteed profit)

Keep in mind Im only gauging their (sha) cloudmining. Did they guarantee profits for that?

Quote
Also can you share which relevant pictures of GAW's datacenter you've seen? I've seen what amounts to a few % of the total hashrate they claim to have. (they were claiming 40+ PH/s last month)

Here are a few that you've probably seen already:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JqqP37Ygce4/VF0tEsgGprI/AAAAAAAAAkQ/pa6-Mrp43x4/s1600/Miners2.jpg
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/josh-garza-to-launch-paycoin-media-tour/

Ive not seen the 40PH claim, do you have a link? But Im less interested in their grandiose claims as I am in finding out how much they actually sold.
Either way, its a bit of a moot point now  that the vast majority was forcibly upgraded to paycoin BS and they stopped selling these products


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jimmothy on January 01, 2015, 09:15:49 AM
You're missing an 8 for gawminers. (guaranteed profit)

Keep in mind Im only gauging their (sha) cloudmining. Did they guarantee profits for that?

Few quotes I could find:

Quote
Obsolete proof - Adjusts to always remain profitable and never breaks down
Quote
We've produced a miner incapable of negative ROIs
Quote
It uses enormous economies of scale to maintain profitability longer and more reliably than any other miner on the market.
Quote
leading more customers to positive ROIs than any other bitcoin miner ever sold

I'm sure I could find many more but they are lost in their unsearchable forum. (Josh also tends to backtrack/erase many of the false advertisements hence the obsessive archiving in the GAW thread)

Quote
Quote
Also can you share which relevant pictures of GAW's datacenter you've seen? I've seen what amounts to a few % of the total hashrate they claim to have. (they were claiming 40+ PH/s last month)

Here are a few that you've probably seen already:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JqqP37Ygce4/VF0tEsgGprI/AAAAAAAAAkQ/pa6-Mrp43x4/s1600/Miners2.jpg
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/josh-garza-to-launch-paycoin-media-tour/

Ive not seen the 40PH claim, do you have a link? But Im less interested in their grandiose claims as I am in finding out how much they actually sold.
Either way, its a bit of a moot point now  that the vast majority was forcibly upgraded to paycoin BS and they stopped selling these products

I extrapolated the 40PH/s based on this claim that they mined 28k in 2 months. (and that's just one of the several mining addresses)

Quote
In investigating these claims, BitBeat viewed a bitcoin address at Blockchain.info that was cryptographically proven to belong to GAW and in which almost 28,000 bitcoins — currently worth more than $10 million – have flowed from mining operations over the past two months. We were told this was just one of a number GAW mining addresses.

As for actual sales, you will never find them but here's their totally believable claim:

Quote
Mr. Garza denies all charges of wrongdoing and stands by the heady claims he makes about the size of his operation: 200,000 customers; $120 million in revenue over six months; a mining operation that accounts for 50% of all new bitcoin computing power coming online.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 01, 2015, 09:28:16 AM
Few quotes I could find:

Quote
Obsolete proof - Adjusts to always remain profitable and never breaks down
Quote
We've produced a miner incapable of negative ROIs
Quote
It uses enormous economies of scale to maintain profitability longer and more reliably than any other miner on the market.
Quote
leading more customers to positive ROIs than any other bitcoin miner ever sold


Its all typical gawtalk, but nowhere do I see guaranteed profit (ROI >100%).
Besides, to be fair it would need to be advertised clearly on their website and not hidden in a blog or forum post somewhere.

Quote
In investigating these claims, BitBeat viewed a bitcoin address at Blockchain.info that was cryptographically proven to belong to GAW and in which almost 28,000 bitcoins — currently worth more than $10 million – have flowed from mining operations over the past two months. We were told this was just one of a number GAW mining addresses.

Well, if that claim is correct, then  if anything, it supports the legitimacy of gaw and I should grant them point 1. Of course I will not grant them that unless the addresses and proof are made public as I suspect its bullshit.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jimmothy on January 01, 2015, 09:51:29 AM
Few quotes I could find:

Quote
Obsolete proof - Adjusts to always remain profitable and never breaks down
Quote
We've produced a miner incapable of negative ROIs
Quote
It uses enormous economies of scale to maintain profitability longer and more reliably than any other miner on the market.
Quote
leading more customers to positive ROIs than any other bitcoin miner ever sold


Its all typical gawtalk, but nowhere do I see guaranteed profit (ROI >100%).
Besides, to be fair it would need to be advertised clearly on their website and not hidden in a blog or forum post somewhere.

I see your point for the "always remain profitable" but I don't see how "incapable of negative ROI" is not guaranteeing profit.

Paying 1 satoshi per day might let them get away with claiming "always profitable" but that doesn't make the ROI positive.

Quote
Quote
In investigating these claims, BitBeat viewed a bitcoin address at Blockchain.info that was cryptographically proven to belong to GAW and in which almost 28,000 bitcoins — currently worth more than $10 million – have flowed from mining operations over the past two months. We were told this was just one of a number GAW mining addresses.

Well, if that claim is correct, then  if anything, it supports the legitimacy of gaw and I should grant them point 1. Of course I will not grant them that unless the addresses and proof are made public as I suspect its bullshit.

If those claims are correct then GAW is likely the single largest entity in all crypto mining.

Because of that, I don't see how pics showing around a hundred TH/s worth of hardware are relevant.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 01, 2015, 09:58:16 AM
Paying 1 satoshi per day might let them get away with claiming "always profitable" but that doesn't make the ROI positive.

Sure it does. 1 satoshi is a positive number, therefore ROI is positive. Remember, break even = 100% ROI and profit means > 100% ROI.
1% ROI represents a huge (99%) loss, but its not a negative number. A negative ROI would mean you somehow lose more than your initial investment.

Quote
If those claims are correct then GAW is likely the single largest entity in all crypto mining.

Because of that, I don't see how pics showing around a hundred TH/s worth of hardware are relevant.

You cant have it both ways. Either the author of the article is correct, and that would mean he saw more convincing proof than pictures could offer, and it would attest to gaw's legitimacy. Or, more likely, he was confused/lied to/mislead, in which case GAW shouldnt have to prove anything like 40PH.

In either case, unverifiable third party testimony cant really weigh on the scoring.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jimmothy on January 01, 2015, 10:46:18 AM
Paying 1 satoshi per day might let them get away with claiming "always profitable" but that doesn't make the ROI positive.

Sure it does. 1 satoshi is a positive number, therefore ROI is positive. Remember, break even = 100% ROI and profit means > 100% ROI.
1% ROI represents a huge (99%) loss, but its not a negative number. A negative ROI would mean you somehow lose more than your initial investment.

It doesn't really make sense to use the term negative ROI unless you mean (total earnings-total invested)/total invested.

Either way, I don't think GAW deserves a free pass just because everything they say is ambiguously worded.

Quote
Or, more likely, he was confused/lied to/mislead, in which case GAW shouldnt have to prove anything like 40PH.

IMO they should have to prove what they are claiming to have.

Anyways I'll leave it at that. Like you said, it's sort of pointless now that most people have switched to hashpoints/hashstakers and the rest are being paid such small returns that they likely have enough hardware to cover it.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: whitewhidow on January 01, 2015, 10:48:50 AM
anyone else missing payment from zeus from last night ?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: whitewhidow on January 01, 2015, 11:26:02 AM
anyone else missing payment from zeus from last night ?

POOF...   NICE . AGAIN.   AWSOME.    FFFUUUUCCCKKKKK


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Dilemma on January 01, 2015, 11:32:54 AM
is there any bad news for Hashnest ??


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: whitewhidow on January 01, 2015, 11:47:04 AM
anyone else missing payment from zeus from last night ?

POOF...   NICE . AGAIN.   AWSOME.    FFFUUUUCCCKKKKK


https://crypto-hash.com/index.php


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: skuser on January 01, 2015, 01:53:57 PM
is there any bad news for Hashnest ??

Yep, their latest cheap offer is worrying without further explanation. Also if you login to trade section and look into sellers bids, there are 2 bids for sale of 1 PHs each and one for 600+THs. All hashrate offered for sale together from all bids (3 PHs) is of the same size as whole umisoo should be and unless they explain from where the new hashrate is coming and how much did they dump to market it starts to stink.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: whitewhidow on January 01, 2015, 01:57:22 PM
yet it is listed as legit in the cloudminer 101 thread?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 01, 2015, 02:20:52 PM
yet it is listed as legit in the cloudminer 101 thread?

Ive seen no evidence its not. But its also worth rehashing (pun intended) the disclaimer: being rated as legit here doesnt guarantee you anything. All it shows is that said company has provided reasonable evidence it is a real company and your investment is backed by actual hashrate. It doesnt guarantee they wont scam you, and it certainly doesnt imply anything about profitability.



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: whitewhidow on January 01, 2015, 02:22:35 PM
yet it is listed as legit in the cloudminer 101 thread?

Ive seen no evidence its not. But its also worth rehashing (pun intended) the disclaimer: being rated as legit here doesnt guarantee you anything. All it shows is that said company has provided reasonable evidence it is a real company and your investment is backed by actual hashrate. It doesnt guarantee they wont scam you, and it certainly doesnt imply anything about profitability.



ofcourse, an im not claiming either way, was just pointing out, the same thing your disclaimer states..


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Zeta0S on January 01, 2015, 03:18:28 PM
Mining Asics Technologies, a Dutch Asic manufacturer and Cloud-mining services has gone Insolvent.
A other Cloudminer has fails to deliver.
News Article:  http://www.bitcoinupdate.nl/home/the-dutch-mining-asics-technologies-bv-bankrupt
 :-X :-X


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Gws24 on January 01, 2015, 04:53:37 PM
No surprise there! From the very first moment a thread was opened about them here most people called it a scam as the signs were obvious.

offtopic: Zeta, you should run a spell checker on the english text (insolvet ==> insolvent, view ==> few and visit ==> visited)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Zeta0S on January 01, 2015, 05:07:36 PM
No surprise there! From the very first moment a thread was opened about them here most people called it a scam as the signs were obvious.

offtopic: Zeta, you should run a spell checker on the english text (insolvet ==> insolvent, view ==> few and visit ==> visited)

Thanks!  :)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 01, 2015, 06:38:43 PM
https://crypto-hash.com/index.php

Is that a clone of zeushash?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: whitewhidow on January 01, 2015, 06:42:00 PM
https://crypto-hash.com/index.php

Is that a clone of zeushash?

it seems so. and from what i hear. its the same ppl


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: DisaBit on January 02, 2015, 03:45:13 AM
Hi Puppet
Just want to commend you on a good job! Thanks and Happy New Year!

Here's another two CLOUD MINING SERVICES for you to look at:
1] cloudmining.sg
COINTELEGRAPH:"The major cryptocurrency event, Inside Bitcoin, will be held next year in Singapore on January 29-30, 2015.
Speakers
A number of the industry´s top thought leaders, including Steve Beauregard, CEO and Found of GoCoin.com, Tomas Forgac, Founder of Coin of Sale, Zennon Kapron, Managing Director of Kapronasia and Neal R. Blackburn, co-Founder, Cloud Mining Singapore. This group will be discussing topics such as blockchain technology, compliance and regulation, derivatives and arbitrage, financial privacy and altcoins, as well as other topics."

Offerings according to website: http://www.cloudmining.sg/profit-calculator.html
1 MH/S  (12 MONTHS CONTRACT)
Was $119.00 Now $25.99

20 MH/S (12 MONTHS CONTRACT)
Was $1,979.00 Now $999.00

100 MH/S (12 MONTHS HOSTING CONTRACT)
Was $9,399.00, Now $3,610.00
Almost forgot, they sell a 90MH/S SCRYPT (LITECOIN) 28NM ASIC PHYSICAL MINER for $3,999.00 down from original price of $10,000.00.

2] http://pow88.com/
Based out of China, they do show some pictures of some miners on their site.
There's a Chinese video here: http://pow88.com/aboutus.php   Coulda sworn I'd seen the guy on the left give a lecture on Youtube along with Marco Krohn (Genesis Mining) somewhere in Europe in 2014.
They promise "hourly earnings,fast and safe.100% hash guarantee. Cheapest price and highest earnings". Looks like they even offer loans! According to this guy {https://btcjam.com/listings/25737-pow88-com-cloud-mining} who tried to take out a loan to buy GH/s, they offer a credit line at 0,1% per day.
Offerings for sale are:
1GH/s = BTC 0.001144
They also have an interesting looking 'hash exchange' here: http://pow88.com/trade.php

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=785721.0  "Pow88 has the first mining leverage market in China , all investors can get a value of 2 times of the security deposit mining leverage. Pow88 has the lowest Maintenance fee:0.0067 BTC/ Ths /Day."

Just thought I'd put this out there.
Happy New Year to one and all!


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: KingTylerVVS on January 02, 2015, 04:31:16 AM
Can we get a campaign spread to ALL Wallet and currency exchange centers to warn against cloud mining?

99% of them are either scams, nor not profitable. PERIOD.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 02, 2015, 09:02:41 AM
Here's another two CLOUD MINING SERVICES for you to look at:

Thanks, added both with preliminary assessment.
For POW88 :
pow88.com             1+2                => 2/7 = Probably legit (preliminary assessment)

I didnt give them a point for referral because its only 1%. PIctures dont look impressive, but neither does the available hashrate (50TH), this is a small operation.

Cloudmining.sg doesnt look that good so far:
cloudmining.sg        1+2+3+4+7          => 5/7 = (very) suspicious (preliminary assessment)

And ive been generous granting them point 6 (identity) despite the fact there isnt even a contact address on their site, but I guess this will do:
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/neal-blackburn/25/305/139


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: raskul on January 02, 2015, 11:54:14 AM
Here's another two CLOUD MINING SERVICES for you to look at:

Thanks, added both with preliminary assessment.
For POW88 :
pow88.com             1+2                => 2/7 = Probably legit (preliminary assessment)

I didnt give them a point for referral because its only 1%. PIctures dont look impressive, but neither does the available hashrate (50TH), this is a small operation.

agreed, looks very professional. everything is laid clear.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: whitewhidow on January 02, 2015, 12:02:43 PM
cant seem to register there, fist i get errors of illegal characters in pass (as on amhash ?),   then i get an error in chinese ...   so ..  cant register


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 02, 2015, 12:11:41 PM
password needs to be 8+ characters, and it seems you cant reuse the same email you got the error with. Then you get a chinese only email to confirm the registration

Professional? Far from. Then again, thats not a crime and Id rather they know a thing or two about operating mining hardware than coding websites. Amhash website is a disaster too, and most of the sleek looking fancy websites are scams.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: LiteCoinGuy on January 02, 2015, 05:42:07 PM
give GAW a "9/9" , they deserve it  :D


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: julian071 on January 03, 2015, 02:38:28 PM
Not cloudmining (so off-topic?) but definitely a ponzi (so on-topic?): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=906261

I think it's just plain shocking how easily one can start a ponzi here on bitcointalk and lure enough people in to make a profit. I think it's both shocking that so many people lack common sense, but also that there's no action taken against this.

I'll try and report this somewhere, see if bitciontalk.org will shut this down before even more people lose their BTC.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: skuser on January 03, 2015, 04:01:54 PM
I added quick ROI calculations for companies considered legit here: http://nextdifficulty.com/ Use on your own risk of course, not too much to chose from anyway...


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: siampumpkin on January 03, 2015, 04:07:50 PM
You should add ContractMine.com

I am experimenting with it here in this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=911366.msg10007621#msg10007621

I feel it needs some investigation. I hope to get some details on payouts, if any, soon.



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BombaUcigasa on January 03, 2015, 04:51:09 PM
Not cloudmining (so off-topic?) but definitely a ponzi (so on-topic?): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=906261

I think it's just plain shocking how easily one can start a ponzi here on bitcointalk and lure enough people in to make a profit. I think it's both shocking that so many people lack common sense, but also that there's no action taken against this.

I'll try and report this somewhere, see if bitciontalk.org will shut this down before even more people lose their BTC.
If you want to play with that, use the 14 day plan, payment on term. The last ponzi that offered such rates closed in 21 days, you need to maximize profit and minimize risk.

Since it started 7 days ago, it will most likely die on January 20th or so...


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: eneloop on January 03, 2015, 06:03:18 PM
If that's true (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=875487.msg10021659#msg10021659) GAW really needs a special hint in this list.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: whitewhidow on January 03, 2015, 10:18:55 PM
Sooo..   thoughts on scrypt.cc beeing down ?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: NeonTranceBadger on January 03, 2015, 10:21:32 PM
If that's true (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=875487.msg10021659#msg10021659) GAW really needs a special hint in this list.

Today when they announced there will be no pay floor at all they went full head on scam.  

https://web.archive.org/web/20150103195141/https://hashtalk.org/topic/27529/30-days-of-transparent-questions-and-answers


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cloverme on January 04, 2015, 12:45:12 AM
Sooo..   thoughts on scrypt.cc beeing down ?

Looks like they are back up now. I can confirm that they were down earlier, I emailed them and the site was back up in a few hours.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: HorseRider on January 05, 2015, 02:34:32 AM
is there any bad news for Hashnest ??

Yep, their latest cheap offer is worrying without further explanation. Also if you login to trade section and look into sellers bids, there are 2 bids for sale of 1 PHs each and one for 600+THs. All hashrate offered for sale together from all bids (3 PHs) is of the same size as whole umisoo should be and unless they explain from where the new hashrate is coming and how much did they dump to market it starts to stink.

BITMAIN has just released the S5, and also large mining operation pictures. I think the new added Umisoo is actually out of these new generation of mining rigs. The actual electricity cost of $/TH/day is low and BITMAIN sell the hash rate at low price but earn the maintenance profit.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ComaWombat on January 05, 2015, 10:37:36 AM
BITMAIN has just released the S5, and also large mining operation pictures. I think the new added Umisoo is actually out of these new generation of mining rigs. The actual electricity cost of $/TH/day is low and BITMAIN sell the hash rate at low price but earn the maintenance profit.

Bitmain really shattered my illusions about them when they crashed the UMISOO market with new shares created out of thin air. It's completely unacceptable and a dirty move.

And I also think that they're not as transparent as 99% of Hashnest users think they are. I'd bet there's no way they've been mining with S2 and S3 after they aquired snowball.io. They've been mining with something better and datacenter friendly (S4) and charging high maintenance fees for the contracts like you said. While the payouts are what the contracts dictate, the operation could be called legit I guess, but their trustworthiness in my eyes has taken hard hits this fall and winter.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: armedmilitia on January 05, 2015, 02:35:33 PM
Noticed you added criteria #8 to your ponzi scale. GAW promised guaranteed profitability when they launched their hashlets. However, it seems like they've retracted that promise now, and have deleted the original hashlet thread. There's a theme with GAW deleting their promises to customers...

(Original hashlet thread, you won't find anything here)
https://hashtalk.org/t/mining-has-finally-evolved/6125 (https://hashtalk.org/t/mining-has-finally-evolved/6125)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: HorseRider on January 05, 2015, 02:46:49 PM
BITMAIN has just released the S5, and also large mining operation pictures. I think the new added Umisoo is actually out of these new generation of mining rigs. The actual electricity cost of $/TH/day is low and BITMAIN sell the hash rate at low price but earn the maintenance profit.

Bitmain really shattered my illusions about them when they crashed the UMISOO market with new shares created out of thin air. It's completely unacceptable and a dirty move.

And I also think that they're not as transparent as 99% of Hashnest users think they are. I'd bet there's no way they've been mining with S2 and S3 after they aquired snowball.io. They've been mining with something better and datacenter friendly (S4) and charging high maintenance fees for the contracts like you said. While the payouts are what the contracts dictate, the operation could be called legit I guess, but their trustworthiness in my eyes has taken hard hits this fall and winter.

Before the crash, the Umisoo contract was traded at high price of no possibility to ROI. But after the crash, there is better hope to hold it and get ROI. (Though I think it is not a safe investment). It is still the best kind of cloud mining contract on the market available: backed up by real hashrate, low price, good liquidity.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ComaWombat on January 05, 2015, 03:47:08 PM
But after the crash, there is better hope to hold it and get ROI.

Sure. If you dent a lot of cars in a parking lot, maybe you'll be able to buy them cheap later and they'll still take you from A to B.

It's pure loss to the original car owners though if they don't get insurance money. I don't think I'm getting insurance money from Bitmain for the damages.  :)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: dr1980m on January 05, 2015, 04:09:16 PM
But after the crash, there is better hope to hold it and get ROI.

Sure. If you dent a lot of cars in a parking lot, maybe you'll be able to buy them cheap later and they'll still take you from A to B.

It's pure loss to the original car owners though if they don't get insurance money. I don't think I'm getting insurance money from Bitmain for the damages.  :)
i bought 1 TH from 0,0005 and now its 0,004
i m already lose %20 :(
İts very bad


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: NeonTranceBadger on January 05, 2015, 04:12:35 PM
Noticed you added criteria #8 to your ponzi scale. GAW promised guaranteed profitability when they launched their hashlets. However, it seems like they've retracted that promise now, and have deleted the original hashlet thread. There's a theme with GAW deleting their promises to customers...

(Original hashlet thread, you won't find anything here)
https://hashtalk.org/t/mining-has-finally-evolved/6125 (https://hashtalk.org/t/mining-has-finally-evolved/6125)

We have it all documented over at the official GAW post.  We even have a massive backup of hashtalk.org and the "proof of mining" video by Joe also, so GAW can't get away with any of the deleting of posts.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=857670.0


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: flyingplows on January 05, 2015, 04:41:09 PM
why gaw has such high rating this far? are you aware what have they done to their customers recently? ye, you can still login to their website, but you can login to hashie too.. in fact i dont even know which one is worse (hashie sold amhash contrats, so at least had something not meant to leave you ripped off). i hardly got even with gaw and ONLY because this forum helped me to become aware of impending collapse and i sold my paycoins at ~14$. i almost feel bad about it when i think it is not that gaw refunded me money to compensate for the worthless shit-miners i bought from them to make one satoshi and some forumpoints later(only from better ones - zens), but someone was lied to and fooled to buy these shitcoins for such an inflated price.
so again, how do you call a company when THE ONLY way you can get your money back (if at all) is from new customers?!  :o >:(


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on January 05, 2015, 04:54:42 PM
why gaw has such high rating this far? are you aware what have they done to their customers recently? ye, you can still login to their website, but you can login to hashie too.. in fact i dont even know which one is worse (hashie sold amhash contrats, so at least had something not meant to leave you ripped off). i hardly got even with gaw and ONLY because this forum helped me to become aware of impending collapse and i sold my paycoins at ~14$. i almost feel bad about it when i think it is not that gaw refunded me money to compensate for the worthless shit-miners i bought from them to make one satoshi and some forumpoints later(only from better ones - zens), but someone was lied to and fooled to buy these shitcoins for such an inflated price.
so again, how do you call a company when THE ONLY way you can get your money back (if at all) is from new customers?!  :o >:(

Quote
Possibly/partially legit based on criteria set forth. Based on wider context: more suspicious than a nun squatting in a cucumber field
I wouldn't call that exactly a stellar recommendation. Really, you're asking for trouble if you send coin to any of those services that isn't 0 to 1 on the scale, and even then there's excessive risk.
That's even outside the basic profitability of cloud mining.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on January 05, 2015, 08:56:15 PM
Puppet, can you add https://terabox.me to your list?
It's there, he just spelled it incorrectly.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: suchmoon on January 06, 2015, 02:44:18 AM
Someone spammed this one in the hashie thread

http://ore-mine.com/

TBH I didn't even look at it. But the poster (ref link spam of course) insisted it was "legit" so it must be true  ::)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on January 06, 2015, 02:54:14 AM
Someone spammed this one in the hashie thread

http://ore-mine.com/

TBH I didn't even look at it. But the poster (ref link spam of course) insisted it was "legit" so it must be true  ::)
Affiliate program? 3000% returns?
Legit for sure.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: hdbuck on January 06, 2015, 03:00:12 AM
Someone spammed this one in the hashie thread

http://ore-mine.com/

TBH I didn't even look at it. But the poster (ref link spam of course) insisted it was "legit" so it must be true  ::)
Affiliate program? 3000% returns?
Legit for sure.

does people actually (still) buy this?! Oo


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Muhammed Zakir on January 06, 2015, 05:12:46 PM
Someone spammed this one in the hashie thread

http://ore-mine.com/

TBH I didn't even look at it. But the poster (ref link spam of course) insisted it was "legit" so it must be true  ::)
Affiliate program? 3000% returns?
Legit for sure.

does people actually (still) buy this?! Oo

Check http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/http%3A%2F%2Fore-mine.com . People are searching this site. I think people don't care. :-\

   ~~MZ~~


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jawitech on January 06, 2015, 07:26:05 PM
Someone spammed this one in the hashie thread

http://ore-mine.com/

TBH I didn't even look at it. But the poster (ref link spam of course) insisted it was "legit" so it must be true  ::)
Affiliate program? 3000% returns?
Legit for sure.

does people actually (still) buy this?! Oo

People buy EVERYTHING if you promise them easy profits. Greed makes blind and stupid...


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Josepht on January 07, 2015, 01:29:34 AM
Hey Puppet,

I have a question about Hashnest. When I bought some GH/s there, I couldn't direct them to the pool of my choice.
Therefore I wonder why they have a score of 0/8 and not 1/8.

Great thread btw :)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: siampumpkin on January 07, 2015, 01:30:44 AM
You should add ContractMine.com

I am experimenting with it here in this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=911366.msg10007621#msg10007621

I feel it needs some investigation. I hope to get some details on payouts, if any, soon.



Please add CONTRACTMINE.COM to the listing. I think it needs attention.

Thanks.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: DisaBit on January 07, 2015, 03:29:36 AM
Found this link concerning LTCGear on a litecointalk thread.

https://altcoinherald.com/ltcgear-com-drags-collapse/


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: hashnest.com on January 07, 2015, 04:21:09 AM
Hey Puppet,

I have a question about Hashnest. When I bought some GH/s there, I couldn't direct them to the pool of my choice.
Therefore I wonder why they have a score of 0/8 and not 1/8.

Great thread btw :)

Hi, please noted that we are developing related functions, will be online around 3 months later. However, this function requires a more efficiency and  stronger VPN, and repeatedly testing is needed before released.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: grendel25 on January 07, 2015, 05:00:16 AM
I through about $50 at bitcoincloudservices before I found this thread.  It was a 100G contract for 5 years.  I currently get about $.35 US per day or BTC.00123746 from that contract.  My thinking at first was oh man... wish I had more to throw at this 5-year contract because it would be awesome to be getting something for nothing for that long.

Now, looking at this thread and comparing other cloud services... IDK... is there even anything worth it?

Any thoughts?  I'll have about $1K US dollars pretty soon and am looking to put it towards btc in a meaning ful way.  I love the game and want to actively be working with btc.  Maybe I should try arbitrage but that seems waaayyy too time consuming. 

I guess there isn't really a fair game here.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: armedmilitia on January 07, 2015, 06:42:59 AM
I through about $50 at bitcoincloudservices before I found this thread.  It was a 100G contract for 5 years.  I currently get about $.35 US per day or BTC.00123746 from that contract.  My thinking at first was oh man... wish I had more to throw at this 5-year contract because it would be awesome to be getting something for nothing for that long.

Now, looking at this thread and comparing other cloud services... IDK... is there even anything worth it?

Any thoughts?  I'll have about $1K US dollars pretty soon and am looking to put it towards btc in a meaning ful way.  I love the game and want to actively be working with btc.  Maybe I should try arbitrage but that seems waaayyy too time consuming. 

I guess there isn't really a fair game here.

Correct, there really is no such thing as a passive income in this space... Anything that looks too good to be true tends to be too good to be true.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 07, 2015, 07:31:03 AM
You should add ContractMine.com

I am experimenting with it here in this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=911366.msg10007621#msg10007621

I feel it needs some investigation. I hope to get some details on payouts, if any, soon.



Please add CONTRACTMINE.COM to the listing. I think it needs attention.

Thanks.

I dont think it needs any more attention. Even assuming it does what it says, it should be obvious to anyone who read this thead that its bad idea because several of the companies in the index are ponzi's. Secondly, on the payout addresses I see amounts coming in that are on the order of 0.1 BTC per month or less.  Tiny by any standard, and lets keep it that way.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 07, 2015, 08:00:54 AM
Any thoughts?  I'll have about $1K US dollars pretty soon and am looking to put it towards btc in a meaning ful way.  I love the game and want to actively be working with btc. 

Lets say you purchased another limited supply commodity such as gold instead of btc. What would you do to "actively be working with your gold" ?
You cant, or at least not in a way that is not extremely likely to generate losses.

BTC is the investment, they are cheap now, just put them in a cold wallet.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jedi108 on January 07, 2015, 10:10:02 AM
please add cryptsy.com
https://www.cryptsy.com/markets/view/MN_BTC
https://www.cryptsy.com/currencies/view/260


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: tmfp on January 07, 2015, 11:18:46 AM
Any thoughts?  I'll have about $1K US dollars pretty soon and am looking to put it towards btc in a meaning ful way.  I love the game and want to actively be working with btc. 

Lets say you purchased another limited supply commodity such as gold instead of btc. What would you do to "actively be working with your gold" ?
You cant, or at least not in a way that is not extremely likely to generate losses.

BTC is the investment, they are cheap now, just put them in a cold wallet.

Absolutely +1 on this.
The "investment" industry that has grown up around Bitcoin doesn't need BTCs per se, any currency will do, but it thrives on the mistaken belief that coins should somehow be 'working' to justify their possession, like buying real estate for price appreciation but also with a rental value.
That is not the function of Bitcoin as I understand it, but it shows how unclear a lot of newcomers are about what to with it. They want it to ape fiat, Hodling is not enough for them and you can only buy so much coffee or Overstock sheets.
Put this together with the libertarian dogma of greed is good and the relative lack of sophistication of many new, young 'investors' and you have the cesspit that currently masquerades as the "Bitcoin Investment Industry" aka Scammers Retirement Fund.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: mayax on January 07, 2015, 11:40:17 AM
Any thoughts?  I'll have about $1K US dollars pretty soon and am looking to put it towards btc in a meaning ful way.  I love the game and want to actively be working with btc.

Lets say you purchased another limited supply commodity such as gold instead of btc. What would you do to "actively be working with your gold" ?
You cant, or at least not in a way that is not extremely likely to generate losses.

BTC is the investment, they are cheap now, just put them in a cold wallet.

many of users from this forum will not agree with you when you say "BTC is the investment". they say "BTC is a currency" :)

I can say that BTC is a very high risk investment, similar with a HYIP.  More than that, you cannot be sure if you wake in the morning and your BTC wallet is not on zero because an Ukrainian or Russian hacker stole your funds.



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: pawel7777 on January 07, 2015, 11:50:19 AM
Any thoughts?  I'll have about $1K US dollars pretty soon and am looking to put it towards btc in a meaning ful way.  I love the game and want to actively be working with btc. 

Lets say you purchased another limited supply commodity such as gold instead of btc. What would you do to "actively be working with your gold" ?
You cant, or at least not in a way that is not extremely likely to generate losses.

BTC is the investment, they are cheap now, just put them in a cold wallet.

You can't do much with physical gold, but there's plenty of ways to invest BTC and there's nothing wrong with that.

So what happens to bitcoin if everyone treats it like an investment on its own, everyone just holds and no one uses it? Price will skyrocket right?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 07, 2015, 11:50:46 AM
Its both and neither. From a usage POV, it acts more like currency, as you can easily exchange it and buy things with it. In theory you could do that with golden coins too, but its hardly practical.

But from an investor POV, its clearly a limited supply commodity, very different from fiat currency. Unlike fiat, bitcoins are not created from debt, and therefore cant be created (or destroyed) in response to economic activity. You therefore can not expect to make a % return, nor do you need to, as its not infinitely inflationary like fiat.  It acts just like gold. This makes BTC a very poor instrument to invest with rather than in.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: eneloop on January 07, 2015, 11:55:06 AM
Hey Puppet,

I have a question about Hashnest. When I bought some GH/s there, I couldn't direct them to the pool of my choice.
Therefore I wonder why they have a score of 0/8 and not 1/8.

Great thread btw :)

Hi, please noted that we are developing related functions, will be online around 3 months later. However, this function requires a more efficiency and  stronger VPN, and repeatedly testing is needed before released.
@Puppet
Hashnest -> 1/8


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Dilemma on January 07, 2015, 12:13:41 PM
what obut sicript.cc ?
is it legit?
is there anybody invest this site or can i take withdraw now?
Thanks to who help me :)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 07, 2015, 02:08:26 PM
Hey Puppet,

I have a question about Hashnest. When I bought some GH/s there, I couldn't direct them to the pool of my choice.
Therefore I wonder why they have a score of 0/8 and not 1/8.

Because they published their mining addresses. User select-able pool is not a requirements for point 1, provable hashrate is.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on January 07, 2015, 02:15:25 PM
Hey Puppet,

I have a question about Hashnest. When I bought some GH/s there, I couldn't direct them to the pool of my choice.
Therefore I wonder why they have a score of 0/8 and not 1/8.

Because they published their mining addresses. User select-able pool is not a requirements for point 1, provable hashrate is.
Do they still sign blocks? I think they moved it all over to Antpool, which isn't entirely Hashnest and I don't think shows any top hashrate stats. I could see how that might be a bit of debatable one, since you can't select a pool and they aren't explicitly signing their blocks anymore.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 07, 2015, 04:40:54 PM
Do they still sign blocks? I think they moved it all over to Antpool, which isn't entirely Hashnest and I don't think shows any top hashrate stats. I could see how that might be a bit of debatable one, since you can't select a pool and they aren't explicitly signing their blocks anymore.

Signing blocks to me isnt a requirement, as long as they provide the addresses where the mined coins are sent to (be it from coinbase transaction or just the pool paying out).
I thought hashnest provided those, but I cant seem to find them now.

scrypt.cc will be added later, but at first glance seems an obvious case of 'stay away'.
Ill look further in to MN_BTC too.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: suchmoon on January 07, 2015, 05:35:05 PM
scrypt.cc will be added later, but at first glance seems an obvious case of 'stay away'.

Probably. No transparency whatsoever. Very poor or no communication, site often has issues. Surprisingly it keeps paying out even after some blackouts when many expect it to be folding already, but that doesn't mean much for "risk assessment".


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: whitewhidow on January 07, 2015, 08:56:50 PM
scrypt.cc will be added later, but at first glance seems an obvious case of 'stay away'.

Probably. No transparency whatsoever. Very poor or no communication, site often has issues. Surprisingly it keeps paying out even after some blackouts when many expect it to be folding already, but that doesn't mean much for "risk assessment".

I have support ticket there, open from LAST YEAR !!! i've NEVER gotten a response to ANY ticket from these guys ...   not to mention their rediculous withdraw fee


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: armedmilitia on January 07, 2015, 10:00:41 PM
Probably legit for 3/7 and Probably/partially legit for 4/7 sound very similar. How about renaming probably/partially legit to "possibly legit" or "maybe legit"?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Dilemma on January 07, 2015, 11:14:15 PM
i waiting your scyript.cc report
then maybe i will join there
if it can be beetwen 0/8 and 2/8 :)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: alevlaslo on January 08, 2015, 05:55:36 AM
Hashprofit is not working now


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: alevlaslo on January 08, 2015, 06:05:16 AM
why Knccloud is legit, they website do not has the fotos of farms


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Muhammed Zakir on January 08, 2015, 06:29:39 AM
why Knccloud is legit, they website do not has the fotos of farms

Because they are legit. They are ASIC vendors. See https://www.kncminer.com .

   ~~MZ~~


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 08, 2015, 07:02:36 AM
i waiting your scyript.cc report
then maybe i will join there
if it can be beetwen 0/8 and 2/8 :)

No need to wait, you can assess them yourself. Just look for their  business registration, mining addresses, pictures of their datacenter, find asic endorsement etc. Can you find them? I cant either so its not likely going to be a 0 or even 2.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on January 08, 2015, 07:06:54 AM
why Knccloud is legit, they website do not has the fotos of farms
There's lots of photos of the KnC farm.
http://coinminernews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/BrxyUeUCUAASNcy.jpg-large.jpg

The obvious should be posted here that being legit doesn't mean they are a good investment. It just means they aren't likely a ponzi. KnC has screwed over a large number of their customers, and I believe there's a class action at least in the formative stages against them. Cointerra was another hardware vendor that had a cloud mining operation that was legit, but they are now bankrupt and all indications are that their customers are going to get screwed.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 08, 2015, 08:41:44 AM
please add cryptsy.com
https://www.cryptsy.com/markets/view/MN_BTC
https://www.cryptsy.com/currencies/view/260

Added. It ended up scoring 'only' 4 points, despite there not being a shred of evidence they own any hashrate. OTOH, its a fairly small IPO and cryptsy has more to lose than to gain by robbing customers over 140TH. That is, if you trust cryptsy. One important thing to note is that they give no information on fee structure, so its anyone's guess how much they will pay out going forward.

scrypt.cc was added too, scoring a solid 6 ponzi score. Their domain registration info is not hidden, but also impossible for me to verify (street view shows what appears to be a garden), there is no company registration info, so I rated them as if anonymous.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Dilemma on January 08, 2015, 11:55:06 AM
please add cryptsy.com
https://www.cryptsy.com/markets/view/MN_BTC
https://www.cryptsy.com/currencies/view/260

Added. It ended up scoring 'only' 4 points, despite there not being a shred of evidence they own any hashrate. OTOH, its a fairly small IPO and cryptsy has more to lose than to gain by robbing customers over 140TH. That is, if you trust cryptsy. One important thing to note is that they give no information on fee structure, so its anyone's guess how much they will pay out going forward.

scrypt.cc was added too, scoring a solid 6 ponzi score. Their domain registration info is not hidden, but also impossible for me to verify (street view shows what appears to be a garden), there is no company registration info, so I rated them as if anonymous.

Thnaks for scrypt.cc work
it looks a ponzi
i decided not to join them
thanks again :)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: maniacmusic on January 08, 2015, 08:41:32 PM
on my zoomhash.com account I have zero income for the past 2 weeks. And the hash power is sold out for few months now!!


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 08, 2015, 08:47:53 PM
AFAIK Zoomhash are not paying out for the same reason cryptx and cex.io are not paying out: mining revenue < fees.
While Ive not rated them, from what Ive seen they appear to be honoring their contracts. Dont blame them for not reading/understanding what you bought.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: pawel7777 on January 08, 2015, 10:09:40 PM
please add cryptsy.com
https://www.cryptsy.com/markets/view/MN_BTC
https://www.cryptsy.com/currencies/view/260

Added. It ended up scoring 'only' 4 points, despite there not being a shred of evidence they own any hashrate. OTOH, its a fairly small IPO and cryptsy has more to lose than to gain by robbing customers over 140TH. That is, if you trust cryptsy. One important thing to note is that they give no information on fee structure, so its anyone's guess how much they will pay out going forward.


I think Cryptsy was just testing the market with the MN1 and MN2 contracts. I remember the initial price (set by Cryptsy) for MN1 was much higher than on other sites, but they've sold all the shares pretty fast.
Then they started selling MN2 (also high priced) but those weren't moving too quickly. The payout rate was very regular (every day) and strangely high, comparing to competition.
Not too long after they sold all the shares the payouts started to noticeably decrease, there were some delays etc.

I had a strong impression that they were intentionally paying too much to give false ROI hopes and push all the shares, but that's just my gut feeling.

Anyhow, in Sep they announced their new, large scale mining operation (Mintsy) but think the project is abandoned, last update on 2nd Oct.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=786673 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=786673)

http://mintsy.co/#features (http://mintsy.co/#features)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: shine on you crazy dmnd on January 09, 2015, 02:15:31 PM

I had a strong impression that they were intentionally paying too much to give false ROI hopes and push all the shares, but that's just my gut feeling.

I think your gut feeling is spot on. The MN contracts were introduced in April, 2014 (to great fanfare), and the payouts were pretty regular, aside from a missed day here and there. Everything was copacetic...then things abruptly started going south around mid-Sept. Payments would be "missed" every couple of days, then every other day, then several days in a row. People started getting pissed, so BigVern converted all MN1 & MN2 shares to "MN", and even purchased an extra 20TH "out of his own pocket" to placate the masses. Such a generous fellow.

So, TLDR, it's just another ponzi.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on January 09, 2015, 11:12:15 PM
I think too few ponzis collapsed in recent weeks. I was hoping to to see double digits. Which means there must be still a few more to come or if they survived they would gain more credibility...


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BombaUcigasa on January 09, 2015, 11:54:43 PM
I think too few ponzis collapsed in recent weeks. I was hoping to to see double digits. Which means there must be still a few more to come or if they survived they would gain more credibility...

Most of the collapsed ones were betting on the difficulty ramping up fast so they can pay out less. Since it stalled a bit, they got shaken out.

Now the remaining ponzies might have employed two different strategies:
- sell the investments for fiat and buy back as needed
- promote more aggressively and attract the obviously eager marketplace to invest more and keep the schemes going


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on January 10, 2015, 12:03:35 AM
I think too few ponzis collapsed in recent weeks. I was hoping to to see double digits. Which means there must be still a few more to come or if they survived they would gain more credibility...

Most of the collapsed ones were betting on the difficulty ramping up fast so they can pay out less. Since it stalled a bit, they got shaken out.

Now the remaining ponzies might have employed two different strategies:
- sell the investments for fiat and buy back as needed
- promote more aggressively and attract the obviously eager marketplace to invest more and keep the schemes going

I think option two is the most logical. Option one is not a plausible theory, I do not think they predicted slower diff dynamics and probably have spent BTC on hookers and blow in Vegas.

On this tune we confirm we will be offering option to buy GH/s for EUR :D Soon!


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: suchmoon on January 10, 2015, 02:18:36 AM
On this tune we confirm we will be offering option to buy GH/s for EUR :D Soon!

Do they take Euros in Vegas now? I'm learning new things in this forum every day  :o


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: alevlaslo on January 10, 2015, 05:00:59 PM
On the Hashnest problems with withdrawal today


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BITMAIN on January 10, 2015, 05:05:59 PM
On the Hashnest problems with withdrawal today

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=766448.msg10104903#msg10104903


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: sethminer14 on January 10, 2015, 06:22:38 PM
Buying bitcoin is just all around an easier and more profitable option than mining


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Dilemma on January 10, 2015, 07:03:12 PM
i waiting your scyript.cc report
then maybe i will join there
if it can be beetwen 0/8 and 2/8 :)

No need to wait, you can assess them yourself. Just look for their  business registration, mining addresses, pictures of their datacenter, find asic endorsement etc. Can you find them? I cant either so its not likely going to be a 0 or even 2.

Thanks for your command
İ m new for cloud mining
So your command is usefull for me


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cloverme on January 10, 2015, 08:45:12 PM
Buying bitcoin is just all around an easier and more profitable option than mining

Depends on when you bought it though, if you purchased this year, you lost money... if you purchased some in 2010, then you made a sweet deal.  I think if you were getting in crypto today and wanted to see huge gains, you need to invest in a good alternative coin as well. I'm not suggesting dumping bitcoin, but having another a few coins wouldn't hurt. I think Ripple, Stellar, Storj.io, and Clams are undervalued. This year, I've already made 160% on clams alone.

Anyway, I think the serious ponzi problem is cryptodouble right now, they're all over the forums and eating tons of coins. When they implode, it's going to be bad for the community... if you believe the amount of coins they show they have in their wallets, they have in some cases 10% or more of some of the crypto in circulation.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ATCkit on January 10, 2015, 09:01:07 PM
Hello everyone!

Being scammed feels horrible and I hate myself for being fooled by some assholes. That's why I want to find them. All I want right now is to find them at any cost. I even willing to give a small reward in btc, if someone finds a lot of info about them. I know it is really hard for getting my money back or even finding them. But I don't want to let this go. I am quite sure that there are quite a few people in the same place as I am, who might want to participate in the chase or in increasing the reward.

I should have suspected the fact he hasn't posted any pictures of his farm even if he said he would, the fact that paypal canceled his subscription, the fact that he is not even using a btc processor like BitPay etc, the fact that he offers a 8% discount for those who pay in btc, when it is actually the only way to pay him, 49% discount to turn your profits in shares, ROI 2-3 months, no Blockchain verification (at least I don't know if he is verified), no public mining addresses and his Whois address http://whois.domaintools.com/ltcgear.com . If anyone is able to track them, by any means please do it and I will reward you. However I didn't do any research before I went straight into the catch. 3 People that I knew, mentioned the good ROI and the fact that they were satisfied + the fact that they weren't constantly 'selling' shares made me think that they are legit.

I want to gather enough information about Chris. Even if people think that he will return, we could still gather as much information as we can and also create a plan in case he takes our money and runs away. This call is for people that send him money through PayPal, for people who traded physical miners with him and especially those who send their stuff back to him, for people who have talked with him over the phone, VoIP or have any social network account. For them who have received referral payments. People who have send him Btc and he still hasn't withdrawn them from the deposit addresses. People that know any possible mining addresses.

A guy found some info on various forums:

https://hashtalk.org/topic/24470/current-state-of-ltcgear-payouts-and-more/998

"Chris (beekeeper) isn't really anonymous anymore, I dredged this up from various forums.
BitCage Tech appears to be his company in Romania.

Bitcage Tech (official registered company name?): http://ltcgear.itrademarket.com/profile/bitcage-tech.htm

Bitcage Tech fundamentals, some sort of Romanian companies listing: http://www.romanian-companies.eu/bitcage-tech-srl-31906463/"


If you are going to get into legal action, I would link up with the guys in this post ( as I plan to do if LTCGear does actually collapse):

https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22563.msg242972#msg242972

EDIT: Just found out that beekeeper(Chris) has replied to one of the litecointalk mods. Here's what's he understood from the conversation:

https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=24209.0


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: suchmoon on January 10, 2015, 09:15:24 PM
if LTCGear does actually collapse

Eternal optimism. No wonder the same people invested in GAW and LTCGear.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ATCkit on January 10, 2015, 09:39:53 PM
if LTCGear does actually collapse

Eternal optimism. No wonder the same people invested in GAW and LTCGear.

lol- I used the word "if" which is me getting negative. The fortunate thing is that I my eggs into many baskets.
Call me crazy- but i just bought an Antminer S5 which has a 15% discount. Bitmain has been the most reliable for me and i should likely look closer at HashNest again. I bet they will have S5 cloud mining contracts available soon. They will likely have a lower maintenance cost than even the S3s.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: suchmoon on January 10, 2015, 10:52:00 PM
if LTCGear does actually collapse

Eternal optimism. No wonder the same people invested in GAW and LTCGear.

lol- I used the word "if" which is me getting negative. The fortunate thing is that I my eggs into many baskets.
Call me crazy- but i just bought an Antminer S5 which has a 15% discount. Bitmain has been the most reliable for me and i should likely look closer at HashNest again. I bet they will have S5 cloud mining contracts available soon. They will likely have a lower maintenance cost than even the S3s.

With hardware you can sell it when you're done. Amazingly a used S3 still sells for 0.5BTC, while it cost IIRC 0.58-0.68 new back in July/August.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: pawel7777 on January 10, 2015, 11:25:29 PM

With hardware you can sell it when you're done. Amazingly a used S3 still sells for 0.5BTC, while it cost IIRC 0.58-0.68 new back in July/August.

Not that pretty in USD terms, remember that BTC price was much higher.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ATCkit on January 11, 2015, 12:50:09 AM
if LTCGear does actually collapse

Eternal optimism. No wonder the same people invested in GAW and LTCGear.

lol- I used the word "if" which is me getting negative. The fortunate thing is that I my eggs into many baskets.
Call me crazy- but i just bought an Antminer S5 which has a 15% discount. Bitmain has been the most reliable for me and i should likely look closer at HashNest again. I bet they will have S5 cloud mining contracts available soon. They will likely have a lower maintenance cost than even the S3s.

With hardware you can sell it when you're done. Amazingly a used S3 still sells for 0.5BTC, while it cost IIRC 0.58-0.68 new back in July/August.

Agreed...doing so and replacing with new more efficient hardware has been safer way to make btc than cloud mining has been. It's not easier tho ... as buying and selling is a lot more work and eventually selling used miners may dry up given everyone's view of market btc conditions and btc difficulty. Only time will tell.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cpoer2011 on January 11, 2015, 04:30:28 AM
thx for the info...  :)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: AwesomeTRADER on January 11, 2015, 06:52:41 AM
Why do people invest in these schemes when they no they have no control over the mining and stuff, they just have to pray for some good thing to happen, like a mining difficulty decrease


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Muhammed Zakir on January 11, 2015, 01:58:04 PM
Why do people invest in these schemes when they no they have no control over the mining and stuff, they just have to pray for some good thing to happen, like a mining difficulty decrease

To buy 'MONEY MAKING MACHINE' which gives profit rapidly, atleast according to investors.  They haven't understood that, they aren't buying MMM instead, they are donating MONEY to ENGINEERS who built their MMM. ::)

   ~~MZ~~


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 11, 2015, 11:02:15 PM
Seems like cloudminr.io just collapsed. Surprising absolutely no one reading this thread.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: whitewhidow on January 11, 2015, 11:07:36 PM
Seems like cloudminr.io just collapsed. Surprising absolutely no one reading this thread.

?? where are you getting this ?

They just made payout to me a few mins ago, and their site is loading fine ...?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: pawel7777 on January 11, 2015, 11:14:29 PM
Seems like cloudminr.io just collapsed.

Didn't you mean cryptomine.io? Judging by the official threads, they're looking much worse than cryptominr.io.

...Surprising absolutely no one reading this thread.

Just rename it to: "Earn a quick $$$ by cloudmining!!!" - attention of potential ponzi victims guaranteed  ;)



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: tmfp on January 12, 2015, 12:20:51 AM
Seems like cloudminr.io just collapsed.

Didn't you mean cryptomine.io? Judging by the official threads, they're looking much worse than cryptominr.io.

...Surprising absolutely no one reading this thread.

Yeah, it appears that all the cryptomine.io coin was transferred tonight to an address which also received the funds of the timetobit.com cloud mining scam in August.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=744692.40

   1FsVcdeHbpvUVT3gjeuVR2ZSDnpcsJMsLL

This address has been implicated as the destination in many other scams.

There's a portion of 100 btc stolen from diceminer's Primedice account
 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=791367.80

There's 160 btc from AKCoinDigger/Joe Mattie's account with DiceBitco.in
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=716312.1680

748 from dadj
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=744692.msg8970581#msg8970581

unspecified from localbitcoins
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=744692.msg9742045#msg9742045

and blackarrow claim an unspecified amount stolen and sent there
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=800660.msg9016252#msg9016252

which prompted notbatman, a very disgruntled Black Arrow punter to speculate

We suspect this is just an excuse to embezzle our money and that the convicted Romanian internet fraud artist Alexandru Ion Sovu (CEO of BA and the clown behind the BCT user blackarrow) is still in control of our BTC and the 1fsVc address.

The role of address  1FsVcdeHbpvUVT3gjeuVR2ZSDnpcsJMsLL in stolen coin has been discussed before with no progress.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=769626.0

Do you have any ideas about how to find out what is going on there?
A mass appeal to help identify it?




Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on January 12, 2015, 12:23:08 AM
The 1Fs address is the BTC-e output wallet.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: whitewhidow on January 12, 2015, 12:24:28 AM
quick thought ? a website where you can input a wallet adress, and it goes looking for traces, to known scam adresses ?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 12, 2015, 07:10:06 AM
Didn't you mean cryptomine.io? Judging by the official threads, they're looking much worse than cryptominr.io.

Oops, indeed I meant that ponzi instead of the other ponzi..


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Johny Depp on January 12, 2015, 11:08:33 AM
Didn't you mean cryptomine.io? Judging by the official threads, they're looking much worse than cryptominr.io.

Oops, indeed I meant that ponzi instead of the other ponzi..

Unknowingly, u spoke the truth... CLOUDMINR.IO has changed payout addresses of people to his different addresses that he own and blaming it to malware. As he does not have any big customer, so u dont see any big chaos so far. He is also using some of his forum alts to promote that he is paying...

Hello!

This week's payout will once again be higher than our revenue. That's a situation in which a typical ponzi scheme would collapse. We have received blackmail too, however the blackmail has not turned off our hardware.

Updates:

Implemented email security tokens for account data changes. From now on, before updating your account data (such as e-mail, payout address or password), you will be emailed a token to prevent your account data being changed without your consent by malware.

IMPORTANT: Please make sure that your payout address is correct before our payout tomorrow. If you have any issues with changing our account data, please message us. We will gladly help you out before tomorrow's payout.

Best regards,
Adrian

Awesome !!! So, after changing people's payout address, you are giving one day notice to contact you back ! You have no backup of people's account data from where you can restore the original addresses !! At a cloud mining facility, people have to worry everyday when the service owner is changing his email ID and blaming some fictitious malware !!! Reminds me of hashie, who deleted their referral table and blamed some hack a month before vanishing in the thin air.

Obvious SCAM

This week's payouts have been sent!

https://blockchain.info/address/1CMR18ds3W4tz3MceN7wkm4NsaFW9jxvk9



sweet thanks for the confirmation

i'm not receive my payment   ???


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: whitewhidow on January 12, 2015, 11:54:55 AM
i am not claiming EITHER way, and im obviously not related to cloudminr in ANY way !

but i DID get my payment yesterday (didnt roi yet, so means nothing)

he also stated: that it was impossible for him to change the payout adresses, wich i asked him to explain, as that makes zero sense to me ..   (no answer on this yet ..)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: skuser on January 12, 2015, 02:02:49 PM
Puppet you can mark CEX.IO as obsolete, because they are closing mining 'temporarily'. If they allow GHS trading anyway, it would be great news for traders, as they won't be losing more money due to negative dividends in the meantime :D

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=318010.msg10124172#msg10124172


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: inBitweTrust on January 12, 2015, 07:20:12 PM
Does anyone know of any cloud mining company that allows you to mint 100% virgin coins?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BombaUcigasa on January 12, 2015, 07:30:01 PM
Does anyone know of any cloud mining company that allows you to mint 100% virgin coins?
How much are you willing to pay for that?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: inBitweTrust on January 12, 2015, 07:31:13 PM
Does anyone know of any cloud mining company that allows you to mint 100% virgin coins?
How much are you willing to pay for that?

I know how to get them , I'm just curious if any of these cloud mining companies issue them. That is the true test they aren't ponzi's.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on January 12, 2015, 07:33:29 PM
CEX switched off.
I cannot see any drop in hashing power. I think CEX was also ponzi


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on January 12, 2015, 07:35:02 PM
CEX switched off.
I cannot see any drop in hashing power. I think CEX was also ponzi
Why do you think CEX switching off means they actually turned off the hardware?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on January 12, 2015, 07:38:45 PM
No they diid not. There was no hardware. In T&C  same was the property of the users and could be redeemed.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on January 12, 2015, 07:44:00 PM
No they diid not. There was no hardware. In T&C  same was the property of the users and could be redeemed.
I'll rephrase.
Assuming that CEX.IO has enough hardware to cover their sold mining power, do you think that them suspending the current accounts until such a time that mining revenue > maintenance fees necessarily implies that they have actually shut off the assumed hardware?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: RocketSingh on January 12, 2015, 09:15:56 PM
No they diid not. There was no hardware. In T&C  same was the property of the users and could be redeemed.
I'll rephrase.
Assuming that CEX.IO has enough hardware to cover their sold mining power, do you think that them suspending the current accounts until such a time that mining revenue > maintenance fees necessarily implies that they have actually shut off the assumed hardware?

AFAIK, Cex.IO's mining firm is Ghash.IO's own hardware and as I can see Ghash.IO is still mining with 12% (ref: https://blockchain.info/pools), i.e. their own hardware are still running.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cloverme on January 12, 2015, 09:40:40 PM
Unless it was an elaborate scheme, I believe CEX had their own hardware.  Low in hashing power by today's standards though. https://cex.io/redeem. It makes sense that some will have to stop mining if power costs exceed revenue. Difficulty is up and BTC value is down at the moment... A little scarcity of BTC wouldn't be a bad thing at this point.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on January 12, 2015, 09:46:29 PM
what you are seeing is the pool that other miners are mining.
@Mr.Teal
I will rephrase....  what makes you think there has been any hardware ever? Have you seen any ? any reliable evidence ? something like this? ever?
https://twitter.com/Datavetaren/status/485388559256657920/photo/1


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Warren Buffet on January 13, 2015, 09:48:58 AM
Latest SCAM thmining.com

=> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=923017.0

=> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=923304.0


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on January 13, 2015, 01:22:04 PM
what you are seeing is the pool that other miners are mining.
@Mr.Teal
I will rephrase....  what makes you think there has been any hardware ever? Have you seen any ? any reliable evidence ? something like this? ever?
https://twitter.com/Datavetaren/status/485388559256657920/photo/1
I haven't looked enough into CEX to justify me doing proper due diligence, but on the surface they appeared to be a legitimate reseller marketplace backed by a massive amount of Bitfury hardware. They were (to the best of my knowledge) reselling the Bitfury controlled portion of GHash's output. I can't say with any certainty that they are legit though.

That doesn't really change my disagreement with part of your post though. If CEX.io was actually selling time on legitimate machines, them suspending operations doesn't mean those machines turned off. Remember they haven't even disabled the option to pay out. You can still request that your account remain active, it will just run negative as the maintenance fee is higher than the reward.
Maintenance fee != their marginal cost though. They equipment is all installed, at least in the short term they're still paying for the facility, internet, etc, etc. Unless they have more efficient hardware waiting in the wings, their marginal cost to run the existing hardware is probably pretty close to the cost of electricity. They might still be making a profit at these conditions, and the equipment stays on.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on January 13, 2015, 03:07:14 PM
No, they do not pay for anything, nobody has ever seen a single DC of CEX. Bitfury chips went on negative equity long time ago more or less at the time the Jupiters stopped to be productive.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Polivka GmbH on January 13, 2015, 03:13:54 PM
Hi Everyone.
Could you put me on the list. https://rent-a-hash.com

One "Bitmain Antminer S3" for Rent
Remote access to the web interface of the miner - every pool configuration possible!
6 month complete package including rent, power, cooling, maintenance, internet connection!

299 Euro incl. VAT for private customers from within EU and 249,17 Euro excl. VAT for business inside EU and non-EU customers .
Non-EU customers don't have to pay VAT but Polivka GmbH is required by law to demand proof of residence for that. A copy of an ID and a utility bill must be provided before the order is accepted.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: galdur on January 13, 2015, 03:17:35 PM
i am interested in mining as newbie and this thread is easy to understand.
mining at this point is not wise? or is it better to wait for later moment when price is higher.

What's so hard about buying bitcoin? The fact you don't have to beg someone for it back?

What's so hard about buying bitcoin? Well, watching it constantly tank - I guess.



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on January 13, 2015, 03:51:47 PM
I heard that Puppet had a look at a bitcoin chart for the first time in two years, checked out Charts 101, quickly concluded that Bitcoin was a Ponzi scam, as a result had a breakdown and now thinks he´s Napoleon Bonaparte. Well, at least that´s the rumor.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: armedmilitia on January 13, 2015, 06:35:48 PM
I heard that Puppet had a look at a bitcoin chart for the first time in two years, checked out Charts 101, quickly concluded that Bitcoin was a Ponzi scam, as a result had a breakdown and now thinks he´s Napoleon Bonaparte. Well, at least that´s the rumor.

Guys, just put galdur on your ignore list... Obvious trolls are obvious.

Don't feed him.



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 13, 2015, 07:23:31 PM
No, they do not pay for anything, nobody has ever seen a single DC of CEX. Bitfury chips went on negative equity long time ago more or less at the time the Jupiters stopped to be productive.

Bitfury is still among the most power efficient chip, achieving ~0.75W/GH at the wall. So far only Bitmain is doing significantly better, and only since a few weeks. So it all comes down to their electricity cost.

You will note however, that even KnC has not shut off their miners, despite considerably worse efficiency. Clearly they still think its operationally profitable.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Tigggger on January 13, 2015, 07:33:09 PM

You will note however, that even KnC has not shut off their miners, despite considerably worse efficiency. Clearly they still think its operationally profitable.

That assumption is based on the fact they are still using the Jupiters, the reality is that their farm is full of the customer neptunes they are refusing to ship.

They might not be a ponzi, but they are scam artists of the highest order.



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: armedmilitia on January 13, 2015, 09:16:49 PM
No, they do not pay for anything, nobody has ever seen a single DC of CEX. Bitfury chips went on negative equity long time ago more or less at the time the Jupiters stopped to be productive.

Bitfury is still among the most power efficient chip, achieving ~0.75W/GH at the wall. So far only Bitmain is doing significantly better, and only since a few weeks. So it all comes down to their electricity cost.

You will note however, that even KnC has not shut off their miners, despite considerably worse efficiency. Clearly they still think its operationally profitable.

Just going to point out that SP-Tech miners range between 0.3w/gh and 0.6 w/gh based on how much you overclock/underclock. As well, KnC Neptunes pull about 0.5 w/gh (very good efficiency).

Not sure if it counts but BE300s chips from Asicminer are currently pulling 0.3 w/gh on stock clocks, but they haven't started shipping in mass qtys.

There's plenty of chips doing better than bitfury's 0.75w/gh stuff. However, bitfury has much better chips now that they are not selling to the public. There's a lot of competition in this mining space!


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Charlie11223 on January 13, 2015, 09:19:59 PM
I think it's safe to put Hash Profit as a verified ponzi scam by now. No one I spoke to has been paid since christmas.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on January 13, 2015, 09:36:05 PM
No, they do not pay for anything, nobody has ever seen a single DC of CEX. Bitfury chips went on negative equity long time ago more or less at the time the Jupiters stopped to be productive.

Bitfury is still among the most power efficient chip, achieving ~0.75W/GH at the wall. So far only Bitmain is doing significantly better, and only since a few weeks. So it all comes down to their electricity cost.

You will note however, that even KnC has not shut off their miners, despite considerably worse efficiency. Clearly they still think its operationally profitable.

Just going to point out that SP-Tech miners range between 0.3w/gh and 0.6 w/gh based on how much you overclock/underclock. As well, KnC Neptunes pull about 0.5 w/gh (very good efficiency).

Not sure if it counts but BE300s chips from Asicminer are currently pulling 0.3 w/gh on stock clocks, but they haven't started shipping in mass qtys.

There's plenty of chips doing better than bitfury's 0.75w/gh stuff. However, bitfury has much better chips now that they are not selling to the public. There's a lot of competition in this mining space!
Can you link to a test of anyone getting 0.3J/GH using SPTech gear?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: armedmilitia on January 13, 2015, 10:21:12 PM
Can you link to a test of anyone getting 0.3J/GH using SPTech gear?

Just did some heavy googling, and I came up dry. I could almost swear someone heavily undervolted an SP20 to get it...

Or maybe I imagined it  :D


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Mabsark on January 14, 2015, 12:40:06 PM
There was just an attempt to start a signature campaign for a "new" "cloud mining service" called MineThatCloud.

I had the following post deleted:

Quote
Before you even post a link offering a cloud mining service, take a look at this thread and try to provide the evidence puppet asks for if.

Also, you FAQ makes no mention at all of maintenance fees. Let me guess, they're included in the price.

If you can't do, don't bother offering your service.

As for this sig campaign, only an idiot would take up your offer without escrow and a legitimate escrow may be hard to find if you can't proride any evidence of legitimacy.

This is just THMining mining (that got slaughtered) under a new name and design.

I edited in that last line and shorty afterwards, all posts  in the thread were deleted, the campaign was closed and the thread locked.

Edit: MineThatCloud just appeared in the Service Announcement section


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: suchmoon on January 14, 2015, 03:35:13 PM
Is it just me, or did CEX actually admit they never had any hardware?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=318010.msg10151684#msg10151684

They kind of sidestepped the question of another poster about trying to redeem GH/s for shipped hardware.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ATCkit on January 14, 2015, 04:06:31 PM
Can you link to a test of anyone getting 0.3J/GH using SPTech gear?

Just did some heavy googling, and I came up dry. I could almost swear someone heavily undervolted an SP20 to get it...

Or maybe I imagined it  :D

Wasn't your imagination :). I think you meant the specs for the Rocker Box chip here:

http://www.spondoolies-tech.com/products/holiday-special-sp20-jackson-shipping-from-stock


However, the SP20 uses 1200 watts for 1.7 THS which is more like 0.71 watts /GHS.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: acquafredda on January 14, 2015, 04:54:17 PM
Is it just me, or did CEX actually admit they never had any hardware?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=318010.msg10151684#msg10151684

They kind of sidestepped the question of another poster about trying to redeem GH/s for shipped hardware.

you're 100% right sir


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: donmoney24 on January 14, 2015, 05:26:57 PM
Littelbit about Hashprofit guys..


https://plus.google.com/photos/+HashcoinsLLC/albums/6006194142254883041/6006194441246076226?pid=6006194441246076226&oid=104002870677427234728

Russian guys looking this middle guy!

https://forum.btcsec.com/index.php?/topic/8524-hashprofit-maining-dlia-vsekh-200-khs-na-7-dnei-besplatno/page-49#entry224357
http://mmgp.ru/showthread.php?t=274495&page=926


They new sites!

And more HP guys maded site:

 Сообщение от snvautozar Посмотреть сообщение
Domain Name: SMARTHASH .BIZ
Registrant Address1: P.O. Box 0823-03411
Registrant City: Panama
Registrant Phone Number: +507.8365503
Name Server: NS11.KODDOS .COM
Name Server: NS12.KODDOS .COM
Created by Registrar: ENOM, INC.
Last Updated by Registrar: ENOM, INC.
Domain Registration Date: Sat Nov 29 20:12:20 GMT 2014
Domain Expiration Date: Tue Nov 28 23:59:59 GMT 2017

Domain Name:PROFITCOIN .ORG
Creation Date: 2014-11-05T11:11:26Z
Updated Date: 2015-01-05T03:46:23Z
Registry Expiry Date: 2015-11-05T11:11:26Z
Sponsoring Registrar:eNom, Inc. (R39-LROR)
Registrant Street: P.O. Box 0823-03411
Registrant City:Panama
Registrant Phone:+507.8365503
Registrant Fax: +51.17057182
Registrant Email:legal@whoisguard.com
Name ServerNS2.YANDEX. NET
Name ServerNS1.YANDEX. NET

Domain Name: HASHPROFIT .COM
Updated Date: 2014-08-03T22:36:19.00Z
Creation Date: 2014-04-02T07:21:00.00Z
Registrar Registration Expiration Date: 2021-04-02T07:21:00.00Z
Registrar Abuse Contact Phone: +1.4252982646
Registrant Street: P.O. BOX 0823-03411
Registrant City: PANAMA
Registrant State/Province: PANAMA
Registrant Phone: +507.8365503
Registrant Fax: +51.17057182
Name Server: DNS1.YANDEX. NET
Name Server: DNS2.YANDEX. NET


http://vimeo.com/112618054

Website: www.crypto-hash.com
Phone: +357 22589052, Fax: +357 22589053
Cyprus Head Office:
Office 3802, 6th floor,Maximos Plaza Tower 2, Maximos
Michaelidi Street, Limassol 3106, Cyprus.
Dubai - (Middle East) Representative Office:
Mezzanine Floor, Sharaf Travel Building 153, Khalid Bin
Al-Waleed Road Bur Dubai United Arab Emirates
Phone: +971 43977885, Fax: +971 43977782


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Mabsark on January 15, 2015, 12:32:12 AM
What are your maintenance fees?

Also, will you be providing any of the evidence puppet asks for in his Cloudmining 101 thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=878387.0) in order to prove your legitimacy?

Hi Thank You for your post.

We just noticed puppets post and will be providing evidence shortly.

As for maintenance fees.

Datacenter in UK.

£6,608 Per Month, We have 4 Full Racks Rented out
£0.17 Per Kwh

Datacenter in France.

€8,526 Per Month, We have 4 Full Racks Rented out
€0.26 Per Kwh


That's 0.26 $/kWh for the Datacenter in the UK.  ::)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on January 15, 2015, 12:47:05 AM
I like how they call it an affiliate scheme.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ligeros on January 15, 2015, 12:51:16 AM
may be it would be interesting for you
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=925209.msg10157434#msg10157434
The same people run CLOUDMINR.IO and TERABOX.ME


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: clownius on January 15, 2015, 01:31:12 AM
What are your maintenance fees?

Also, will you be providing any of the evidence puppet asks for in his Cloudmining 101 thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=878387.0) in order to prove your legitimacy?

Hi Thank You for your post.

We just noticed puppets post and will be providing evidence shortly.

As for maintenance fees.

Datacenter in UK.

£6,608 Per Month, We have 4 Full Racks Rented out
£0.17 Per Kwh

Datacenter in France.

€8,526 Per Month, We have 4 Full Racks Rented out
€0.26 Per Kwh


That's 0.26 $/kWh for the Datacenter in the UK.  ::)

They are big on the self moderation...

Their latest posts suggests they make about $500 profit per month on their supposed 354TH/s.  I have asked how they can afford the 7% affiliate program considering they dont make anywhere near that much.  I doubt my post will last long.

Edit:  If its legit  ::) Its unprofitable in days


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: TheIZS on January 15, 2015, 01:55:31 AM
Still a good thread Puppet, but your still going to keep GAW in the legit list? Come on, one miss isn't bad considering the environment. Lots of folks got taken in by Garbozo's BS. Keep up the good work.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Stargazer on January 15, 2015, 02:43:47 AM
Still a good thread Puppet, but your still going to keep GAW in the legit list? Come on, one miss isn't bad considering the environment. Lots of folks got taken in by Garbozo's BS. Keep up the good work.

Even more earned a lot of money thanks to him.
Paycoin is still here despite the trolling and Garza is going to speak in Miami despite the protests.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ATCkit on January 15, 2015, 01:36:21 PM
Still a good thread Puppet, but your still going to keep GAW in the legit list? Come on, one miss isn't bad considering the environment. Lots of folks got taken in by Garbozo's BS. Keep up the good work.

Even more earned a lot of money thanks to him.
Paycoin is still here despite the trolling and Garza is going to speak in Miami despite the protests.

This may spark some interest: http://blog.paybase.com/paybase-honors-20-paycoin/


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BombaUcigasa on January 15, 2015, 01:46:16 PM
Still a good thread Puppet, but your still going to keep GAW in the legit list? Come on, one miss isn't bad considering the environment. Lots of folks got taken in by Garbozo's BS. Keep up the good work.

Even more earned a lot of money thanks to him.
Paycoin is still here despite the trolling and Garza is going to speak in Miami despite the protests.

This may spark some interest: http://blog.paybase.com/paybase-honors-20-paycoin/
20$ ... 20$ ... 20$ ... A minimum of $100,000 in payments from the Company to Sellers will be made on the first of each month .... 20$.... 20$....

Explanatation: they will buy 5k XPY every month from everyone that puts in the effort to enlist in their honor programme.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: NeonTranceBadger on January 15, 2015, 03:15:42 PM
Still a good thread Puppet, but your still going to keep GAW in the legit list? Come on, one miss isn't bad considering the environment. Lots of folks got taken in by Garbozo's BS. Keep up the good work.

Even more earned a lot of money thanks to him.
Paycoin is still here despite the trolling and Garza is going to speak in Miami despite the protests.

This may spark some interest: http://blog.paybase.com/paybase-honors-20-paycoin/
20$ ... 20$ ... 20$ ... A minimum of $100,000 in payments from the Company to Sellers will be made on the first of each month .... 20$.... 20$....

Explanatation: they will buy 50k XPY every month from everyone that puts in the effort to enlist in their honor programme.

If everyone with paycoins enrolls it's going to take years for them to pay everyone. If it includes the premined coins someone figured around 300+ years to payout so in reality GAW will never pay everyone back cause there is no way that GAW can last another year especially since they are losing their biggest supporters. 


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BombaUcigasa on January 15, 2015, 03:20:16 PM
If everyone with paycoins enrolls it's going to take years for them to pay everyone. If it includes the premined coins someone figured around 300+ years to payout so in reality GAW will never pay everyone back cause there is no way that GAW can last another year especially since they are losing their biggest supporters. 
Even if you include only the mined coins, that's 10 months, a far distance from instatly buying back coins from the money you have already received for them.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: alevlaslo on January 15, 2015, 05:20:11 PM
Hellow,

add new market S4 of Hashnest on this site please http://nextdifficulty.com


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: clownius on January 15, 2015, 05:37:26 PM
Still a good thread Puppet, but your still going to keep GAW in the legit list? Come on, one miss isn't bad considering the environment. Lots of folks got taken in by Garbozo's BS. Keep up the good work.

Even more earned a lot of money thanks to him.
Paycoin is still here despite the trolling and Garza is going to speak in Miami despite the protests.

This may spark some interest: http://blog.paybase.com/paybase-honors-20-paycoin/
20$ ... 20$ ... 20$ ... A minimum of $100,000 in payments from the Company to Sellers will be made on the first of each month .... 20$.... 20$....

Explanatation: they will buy 50k XPY every month from everyone that puts in the effort to enlist in their honor programme.

If everyone with paycoins enrolls it's going to take years for them to pay everyone. If it includes the premined coins someone figured around 300+ years to payout so in reality GAW will never pay everyone back cause there is no way that GAW can last another year especially since they are losing their biggest supporters. 

That was a math oopsie.  Its 5k XPY per month.  One poster on HT pointed out its likely to take over a decade to get the probable coins to go into the scheme paid off.  He was of course shadow banned


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BombaUcigasa on January 15, 2015, 09:10:09 PM
That was a math oopsie.  Its 5k XPY per month.  One poster on HT pointed out its likely to take over a decade to get the probable coins to go into the scheme paid off.  He was of course shadow banned
Sorry, I knew I did the math before and it looked wrong...


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Surger on January 15, 2015, 09:15:41 PM
Hellow,

add new market S4 of Hashnest on this site please http://nextdifficulty.com

so that site shows correct;
Umisoo in hashnest will start mining again in next difficulty level..


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Syke on January 16, 2015, 05:59:46 AM
They are big on the self moderation...

Their latest posts suggests they make about $500 profit per month on their supposed 354TH/s.  I have asked how they can afford the 7% affiliate program considering they dont make anywhere near that much.  I doubt my post will last long.

Edit:  If its legit  ::) Its unprofitable in days

minethatcloud.com is selling "cloud contracts" for less than the price of actual mining hardware. Legit?

1) No mining address
2) No endorsement
3) No pictures
4) Unlimited sales
5) 7% affiliate plus hashrate giveaways
6) Anonymous operators
7) No way to sell the contract back

Code:
minethatcloud.com  1+2+3+4+5+6+7      => 7/7 = Ponzi


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: skuser on January 16, 2015, 09:02:51 AM
Hellow,

add new market S4 of Hashnest on this site please http://nextdifficulty.com
Hi, it's my site. I will do it however the S4 market price is brutally high currently because the market is too small...


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 16, 2015, 09:46:05 AM
Code:
minethatcloud.com  1+2+3+4+5+6+7      => 7/7 = Ponzi

Thanks, added.
Also moved obsolete services to their own list


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Sine(X) on January 16, 2015, 12:12:33 PM
Did somebody else stop mining (except CEX)? Hashnest had closed and then opened.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 16, 2015, 12:18:26 PM
I didnt know hashnest resumed. Ill check and update that in a second
cryptx dissolved their mine, and I moved gaw to obsolete as they are no longer in (PoW) cloud mining business


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: julian071 on January 16, 2015, 02:12:01 PM
Did somebody else stop mining (except CEX)? Hashnest had closed and then opened.

Zeushash anounced they'd stop mining (for their customers), but they have not as of yet. I have a very small amount of hashing there (got it instead of an upgrade board that never materialised) and the payouts are about the same as the maintenance fees. Kinda strange tho, the maintenance fees have risen faster then the BTC prise has sunk. But whatever.

Dear ZeusHash customers,

As Bitcoin price witnessed significant and continuous dropping lately, the daily payouts of GHS will not be able to cover maintenance fees (now at $0.0023 per GHS per day) very soon. As you can see the payouts today have already been eaten up by 98%+ of maintenance fees.

According to our Terms, “in case the daily mining return is lower than the maintenance fee for at least 10 days in a row”, we’ll have to cease the operation of our mining farms and freeze all GHS contracts, which is a forced measure when there’s no mining profitability.

We’d like to warn you not to purchase more GHS as it’s not the best time for investment. And we are working on different plans for your profits when the conditions for freezing GHS contracts are met. The final solution will be released then.

As a dedicated cloud mining platform, ZeusHash will continue its efforts to seek for better solutions to deliver more cost-efficient cloud mining contracts. Negotiations with our partners are going on smoothly and it won’t be long before the new contracts are available.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ATCkit on January 16, 2015, 02:18:43 PM
I didnt know hashnest resumed. Ill check and update that in a second
cryptx dissolved their mine, and I moved gaw to obsolete as they are no longer in (PoW) cloud mining business

you can still buy Hashlets. In the hash market in ZenCloud, some of them are pretty cheap now. Some people are even asking GAW for the ability to pay in XPY for their Hashlets.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Mabsark on January 16, 2015, 03:38:07 PM
Proof of ponzi for MineThatCloud:

The payments were made from 1844aNo5gAssVSmUmLwk6qG61uBNdQswH3.

0.0087 BTC was sent from 12wmRSVf1e6MTpmvGuUxreEXxbaRHkepuC to 1JgxteZWCuZLu4FnPUWv3Jxgj89QkFXLvX which sent 0.0087 BTC to 1844aNo5gAssVSmUmLwk6qG61uBNdQswH3 which sent 0.0001402 BTC to 12wmRSVf1e6MTpmvGuUxreEXxbaRHkepuC.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jimmothy on January 16, 2015, 10:14:41 PM
Proof of ponzi for MineThatCloud:

The payments were made form 1844aNo5gAssVSmUmLwk6qG61uBNdQswH3.

0.0087 BTC was sent from 12wmRSVf1e6MTpmvGuUxreEXxbaRHkepuC to 1JgxteZWCuZLu4FnPUWv3Jxgj89QkFXLvX which sent 0.0087 BTC to 1844aNo5gAssVSmUmLwk6qG61uBNdQswH3 which sent 0.0001402 BTC to 12wmRSVf1e6MTpmvGuUxreEXxbaRHkepuC.


More:

1PdvNQYCnWP9NftxE6gu5DvYVSnkgwnXu3 > 0.0087 > 1GSWxmZU3oHiyBA7PhoqE5ZrAN5YHtjbYx > 0.0087 > 1844aNo5gAssVSmUmLwk6qG61uBNdQswH3 > 0.0002804 > 1PdvNQYCnWP9NftxE6gu5DvYVSnkgwnXu3

1PdvNQYCnWP9NftxE6gu5DvYVSnkgwnXu3 > 0.0087 > 1LTcF4xkch1d5Gb5yTkbGCUsjspHp9KWVp > 0.0087 > 1844aNo5gAssVSmUmLwk6qG61uBNdQswH3 > 0.0002804 > 1PdvNQYCnWP9NftxE6gu5DvYVSnkgwnXu3

1s3DP7QaqwsRrTEn6UQBd9zPCmmvv6KW3 > 0.0087 > 1DzwbKnTXSJtnW2QXjE5EtV1TSSa5bDfki > 0.0087 > 1844aNo5gAssVSmUmLwk6qG61uBNdQswH3 > 0.0043462 > 1s3DP7QaqwsRrTEn6UQBd9zPCmmvv6KW3


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: whitewhidow on January 16, 2015, 10:22:54 PM
Proof of ponzi for MineThatCloud:

The payments were made form 1844aNo5gAssVSmUmLwk6qG61uBNdQswH3.

0.0087 BTC was sent from 12wmRSVf1e6MTpmvGuUxreEXxbaRHkepuC to 1JgxteZWCuZLu4FnPUWv3Jxgj89QkFXLvX which sent 0.0087 BTC to 1844aNo5gAssVSmUmLwk6qG61uBNdQswH3 which sent 0.0001402 BTC to 12wmRSVf1e6MTpmvGuUxreEXxbaRHkepuC.


More:

1PdvNQYCnWP9NftxE6gu5DvYVSnkgwnXu3 > 0.0087 > 1GSWxmZU3oHiyBA7PhoqE5ZrAN5YHtjbYx > 0.0087 > 1844aNo5gAssVSmUmLwk6qG61uBNdQswH3 > 0.0002804 > 1PdvNQYCnWP9NftxE6gu5DvYVSnkgwnXu3

1PdvNQYCnWP9NftxE6gu5DvYVSnkgwnXu3 > 0.0087 > 1LTcF4xkch1d5Gb5yTkbGCUsjspHp9KWVp > 0.0087 > 1844aNo5gAssVSmUmLwk6qG61uBNdQswH3 > 0.0002804 > 1PdvNQYCnWP9NftxE6gu5DvYVSnkgwnXu3

1s3DP7QaqwsRrTEn6UQBd9zPCmmvv6KW3 > 0.0087 > 1DzwbKnTXSJtnW2QXjE5EtV1TSSa5bDfki > 0.0087 > 1844aNo5gAssVSmUmLwk6qG61uBNdQswH3 > 0.0043462 > 1s3DP7QaqwsRrTEn6UQBd9zPCmmvv6KW3


again, how usefull would it be, if there was a site, where from now on, if you typed that adress, you would get a fat red warning, links to this thread, and more ...


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jimmothy on January 16, 2015, 10:25:35 PM
again, how usefull would it be, if there was a site, where from now on, if you typed that adress, you would get a fat red warning, links to this thread, and more ...

blocktrail.com already sort of does that. (no warnings, but it will link you to all the places the address was mentioned)


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: TheIZS on January 16, 2015, 11:05:51 PM
As I can see here u have listed GAWminer and Genesis-Mining as Probably Legit. Maybe, according to your criteria, they are. But, I'd request to u to check the following threads to get informed about the actual picture.


i. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=809563.0
ii. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=875487.0
iii. http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMining/comments/2enhh4/genesisminingcom_is_a_dishonestly_run_business/

I suggest you read the entire line about GAW.  in case you cant scroll horizontally its rated "4/7*= Possibly/partially legit based on criteria set forth. Based on wider context: more suspicious than a nun squatting in a cucumber field".

As for genesis mining; I only see an accusation of shilling or sock puppetry. That sort of behavior wouldnt surprise me one bit from any company on my list. I make no attempt to judge company ethics, the disclaimer defines legit as " All it shows is that said company has provided reasonable evidence it is a real company and your investment is backed by actual hashrate." If you have evidence that undermines that claim for genesis mining, or my rating for it,  Id love to see it.

Yes its very witty Puppet, BUT you still refuse to acknowledge GAW was and still is a ponzi what exactly further evidence do you need? The blatant manipulation if pool rates on ZEN cloud the fact that they stopped mining and the overall hashrate didn't even flinch. If even the whole PAYCOIN/PAYBASE disaster doesn't convince you, what will? Thanks for moving it to the obsolete list, but despite all your good work your denial about GAW really hurts your credibility. 


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: Puppet on January 16, 2015, 11:37:59 PM
Yes its very witty Puppet, BUT you still refuse to acknowledge GAW was and still is a ponzi what exactly further evidence do you need? The blatant manipulation if pool rates on ZEN cloud the fact that they stopped mining and the overall hashrate didn't even flinch. If even the whole PAYCOIN/PAYBASE disaster doesn't convince you, what will?

For the oompth time, the gaw rating is for their cloudmining offer, and mostly SHA at that, as I dont give a satoshi about altcoins.
Yes their paycoin stinks to high heaven, but that doesnt mean Im going to pull numbers out of thin air to change the rating, no more than I change say KnC's rating for the stunts they have pulled off. The points they scored, they earned. And please note that their score is barely better then some confirmed/defunct ponzi's. How you can see that as an endorsement is beyond me.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Bernik on January 17, 2015, 12:18:35 AM
Hi guys and hello Puppet. I've just recieved a reply from Cointellect staff. I've asked if they could clarify the legit points that Puppet revealed to detect a scam cloud mining service. Probably this isn't say a lot and doesn't prove much but at least they tryed to :)
Check yourselves and comment about it.

Quote
Hello again,

We understand that you are referring to an online forum post that lists Cointellect as a scam. We understand your concern; however, I can say with confidence that we have no intention of scamming users. We are a legally registered corporation with satisfied users throughout the world.

The "points" mentioned on this anonymous post can easily be rebutted.

1.- Our mining address is already public. You can get the information in the advanced configuration page https://cointellect.com/download/advanced/

2.- We have already provided our partnership with hardware providers in our news page, you can get the information directly at https://cointellect.com/news/view/?id=14

3.- As you alredy know, we have many pictures about our mining hardware available and we even provided a live feed of our mining facility in China. http://dc.cointellect.com/ You can see our Datacenter directly like you were there.

4.- We do not have an open ended IPO, you can find our available hasharate and total processing power available in your Dashboard within a Blue box.

5.- We offer an affiliated program because the commission is discounted from the contract price, it does has a low margin profit for our company, but we can compensate the gains with our service and trade fees.

6.- The names of our Operators are already public.  Our founders are Aleksei Saaremagi and Leonid Ageev. You can also read our About Us, our FAQ for all other pertinent details about our company.

7.- We do not understand the "exit strategy" term. But you are free to withdraw your earnings at any time, although at this time there are a few delays with our instant withdrawals, we never freeze your earnings.

8.- CoIntellect does not guarantee you mining earnings, as it is, due to the volatile nature of digital currencies, users of our service understand that the value of their mining contracts may become worthless any given moment.

I hope this can clarify your doubts, as you can see, their information is not complete and we are always improving our platform. If you want to contact us directly, you can visit us at the Bitcoin Expo 2015 http://bitcoinexpo2015.com/

UPDATE: Interesting video directly from Cointellect Staff (Sonera Corporative OU) https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwhlByKyFNFXV0VoLWtVbmhoYVE/edit  This video was made under request from one of our member (I speak for our italian Cointellect group) that REALLY went to Tallinn (Estonia) to meet their portuguese PR (Public Relations) and visit their offices. If you're interested on the trip and want the details just ask :)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BombaUcigasa on January 17, 2015, 01:16:18 AM
Hi guys and hello Puppet. I've just recieved a reply from Cointellect staff. I've asked if they could clarify the legit points that Puppet revealed to detect a scam cloud mining service. Probably this isn't say a lot and doesn't prove much but at least they tryed to :)
Check yourselves and comment about it.

Quote
Hello again,

We understand that you are referring to an online forum post that lists Cointellect as a scam. We understand your concern; however, I can say with confidence that we have no intention of scamming users. We are a legally registered corporation with satisfied users throughout the world.

The "points" mentioned on this anonymous post can easily be rebutted.

1.- Our mining address is already public. You can get the information in the advanced configuration page https://cointellect.com/download/advanced/

2.- We have already provided our partnership with hardware providers in our news page, you can get the information directly at https://cointellect.com/news/view/?id=14

3.- As you alredy know, we have many pictures about our mining hardware available and we even provided a live feed of our mining facility in China. http://dc.cointellect.com/ You can see our Datacenter directly like you were there.

4.- We do not have an open ended IPO, you can find our available hasharate and total processing power available in your Dashboard within a Blue box.

5.- We offer an affiliated program because the commission is discounted from the contract price, it does has a low margin profit for our company, but we can compensate the gains with our service and trade fees.

6.- The names of our Operators are already public.  Our founders are Aleksei Saaremagi and Leonid Ageev. You can also read our About Us, our FAQ for all other pertinent details about our company.

7.- We do not understand the "exit strategy" term. But you are free to withdraw your earnings at any time, although at this time there are a few delays with our instant withdrawals, we never freeze your earnings.

8.- CoIntellect does not guarantee you mining earnings, as it is, due to the volatile nature of digital currencies, users of our service understand that the value of their mining contracts may become worthless any given moment.

I hope this can clarify your doubts, as you can see, their information is not complete and we are always improving our platform. If you want to contact us directly, you can visit us at the Bitcoin Expo 2015 http://bitcoinexpo2015.com/

UPDATE: Interesting video directly from Cointellect Staff (Sonera Corporative OU) https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwhlByKyFNFXV0VoLWtVbmhoYVE/edit  This video was made under request from one of our member (I speak for our italian Cointellect group) that REALLY went to Tallinn (Estonia) to meet their portuguese PR (Public Relations) and visit their offices. If you're interested on the trip and want the details just ask :)
It seems they do not actually understand the requirements, AT ALL.

1. That is a website address. It's not a "mining" address.

2. Provided != Proved. They are different words.

3. That feed is a video on loop. The lights blink differently for each box and in the same repeating pattern of the same length. Also, since when do Zeus miners have blinking green LEDs?

4. They are still selling contracts, I don't have an account and can't see their reported hashrate and how it is split across clients.

5. 10% compensation from service and trade fees?

6. About us page doesn't list ownership, FAQ is not found? Whoisguard on domain?

7. Yes, you do not understand, it means you can withdraw your principal before the term is up, not only earnings.

8. It kind of does, see homepage. Also at best you can get at most 9 EUR a day with 300Mh/s (renting mining income only). How do they advertise 97 EUR?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Tigggger on January 17, 2015, 01:19:35 AM
Just took a quick look at that conintellect site, they claim 300MH earns 97.22 euros a day ~ $112 mining scrypt when the reality is about $9

The bulls**t is strong in that one.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BombaUcigasa on January 17, 2015, 01:23:58 AM
If someone wants 5Mh/s for 10 days, it costs 1.5 EUR and not 14.95 EUR...

https://www.nicehash.com/index.jsp?p=stats


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: suchmoon on January 17, 2015, 03:04:58 AM
You know what is a good indicator of a scam/ponzi? Visit hashtalk.org, anything they're excited about is most likely a scam. Gullibility runs deep there. LTC Gear, Cointellect, PB Mining, Hashie, etc were all considered good diversification options for Hashlets  ;D

Some guy there is even trying to start a class action against Cryptodouble. https://hashtalk.org/topic/29033

I mean WHAT THE FUCK DID YOU EXPECT putting money into something that DOUBLES it every 100 hours?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Mabsark on January 17, 2015, 04:17:16 AM
I've just found a link between cloudminr.io and 1FsVcdeHbpvUVT3gjeuVR2ZSDnpcsJMsLL, an address that ended up with the cryptominer.io coins.

The cloudminr.io payout address is 1CMR18ds3W4tz3MceN7wkm4NsaFW9jxvk9 which sent 0.0189623 BTC on 2014-11-09 21:47:42 to 163hR6atXKv8cbUhjaBkmjuaGHndQWg9kh. (https://blockchain.info/address/163hR6atXKv8cbUhjaBkmjuaGHndQWg9kh)

163hR6atXKv8cbUhjaBkmjuaGHndQWg9kh, along with 1PfSp72cYBTkqohUFpdQMJu4eoCifoxgxf and 1FkGxvpBbyTvuww41NTBzL1BiU7TPEfD6C then sent 0.07799983 BTC to 1Hy1RGG1oCJxV94wqEMdzyCtMXiyGh3naX (https://blockchain.info/address/1Hy1RGG1oCJxV94wqEMdzyCtMXiyGh3naX). There are 5 other payments to this address:

1DpAd8DCNLwEGiZ1CWxmBHgrGHiVyxD77g (0.00319328 BTC)
18mmSJc4XnbFFdLiXTWYdhKFbKBQwCQAT2 (0.3225915 BTC)
19PXbU796NtUkQf858mSbPhhYSKkfkfjPC (0.01322624 BTC)
1LaixAQEGfVzgesmyMnja8KRo79LPndMEf (0.17698 BTC)
1Lb2FnMpRsmVZwdV1rGt1ysXyQ2aeBjbKk (0.0489 BTC)

18mmSJc4XnbFFdLiXTWYdhKFbKBQwCQAT2 (https://blockchain.info/address/18mmSJc4XnbFFdLiXTWYdhKFbKBQwCQAT2) made 2 payments to 1CMR18ds3W4tz3MceN7wkm4NsaFW9jxvk9 as well.

1DpAd8DCNLwEGiZ1CWxmBHgrGHiVyxD77g sent 0.23 BTC to 1DpqdziWjddCkYdZG8G8RCugg5FwBXdeEu (https://blockchain.info/tx/5b132c2987cea42f9e57d98847bfb37b1a17734fef901abbcc284e21e675bb73) - the address of the cloudminr.io signature campaign.

19PXbU796NtUkQf858mSbPhhYSKkfkfjPC also makes a payment to the signature campaign address - 1DpqdziWjddCkYdZG8G8RCugg5FwBXdeEu (https://blockchain.info/tx/b44fc1e63d7a52b3adff9a8940d0db9efa1b058a3ad59fdaf49760a0afc0037b)

The address 1Hy1RGG1oCJxV94wqEMdzyCtMXiyGh3naX therefore belongs to cloudminr.io too. This address makes a single payment to 1BNFnhxnS6YMs4zeXg33ex5xb9eew8zJsv (https://blockchain.info/address/1BNFnhxnS6YMs4zeXg33ex5xb9eew8zJsv) which makes a single payment to 16KQFWL71JTYWuarPojB6UXNdHXGZKjG4k (https://blockchain.info/tx/244b829ca50a84cd65c983a417efa3cf4fe49b300ab9d0c7c97f5b3cc6b48f01) for 3.08677474 BTC along with the following addresses:

13kRuLmSS32KD6hWLUEN7BEqusd5PQcrV1 (1.64419489 BTC)
16Av35JeCFDZ2fygo5YjT3uAHTyXDWwYcC (0.75072814 BTC)
1Foq1LujmikEbczo2D2bG4vwVKVEwV6weP (0.04966086 BTC)
1BNFnhxnS6YMs4zeXg33ex5xb9eew8zJsv (0.64229085 BTC)

16KQFWL71JTYWuarPojB6UXNdHXGZKjG4k then makes a payment to 1FsVcdeHbpvUVT3gjeuVR2ZSDnpcsJMsLL for 57.23446175 BTC along with the following addresses:

1HxusKvKnmxYVdzAcvqNmZZFMoSUZcbyjZ (0.0071717 BTC)
1PXwGwaHuv1jTLkHCeR8W2R4Q39t6VsNVJ (0.1 BTC)
1NHYRcEZPKCAdBvgAtCd89WYqddnJJWixD (0.0775821 BTC)
1NACi4cLCsVWJC4wPFzvgDg51epKjPTXia (0.05217515 BTC)
13t3zKJwwwYSdJofk85jHVyZqGem1xckbb (0.11 BTC)
1B5pTgCgAUvB2DiadwgNBXz9Mz8JAXPzT9 (25.0001 BTC)
1Nmbf1ondFqNyZrw9ePA2qPaBSdwYemhF7 (0.5 BTC)
1PENKaJmMZLueG1wxr62ScZCcXcA2qxZJ1 (7.9998 BTC)
13kcgWk6CvVogQrZWMmZPdJALJHWwrBxAn (0.03474557 BTC)
16KQFWL71JTYWuarPojB6UXNdHXGZKjG4k (4.78738909 BTC)
1Kzo7qPNctCpn6EZ7SNaJZ5jT339Wn3XkB (15 BTC)
14BZcLdXx8573n3UmEYNu3TPa84jmHQiyY (0.4787234 BTC)
16KQFWL71JTYWuarPojB6UXNdHXGZKjG4k (3.08677474 BTC)

1FsVcdeHbpvUVT3gjeuVR2ZSDnpcsJMsLL is mentioned as being involved in lots of scams, for example:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=744692.msg9324935#msg9324935
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=791367.msg9086516#msg9086516
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2hv0jd/i_think_someone_just_tried_to_steal_my_coins_but/
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=807034.msg9761385#msg9761385
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=915627.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=832448.msg10142009#msg10142009
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=900132.msg10135731#msg10135731

So given that coins stolen by so many scams end up at that address, why are your coins being sent there and what is it?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on January 17, 2015, 04:20:16 AM

So given that coins stolen by so many scams end up at that address, why are your coins being sent there and what is it?
It's BTC-e.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Mabsark on January 17, 2015, 04:23:38 AM

So given that coins stolen by so many scams end up at that address, why are your coins being sent there and what is it?
It's BTC-e.

Do they just have one address for everyone or is that a specific users address?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: suchmoon on January 17, 2015, 04:32:32 AM

So given that coins stolen by so many scams end up at that address, why are your coins being sent there and what is it?
It's BTC-e.

Do they just have one address for everyone or is that a specific users address?

Each user has a separate deposit address of course. As deposits come in they are swept into a shared wallet, which is what you found. I think most exchanges operate that way.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Mabsark on January 17, 2015, 04:36:50 AM
Each user has a separate deposit address of course. As deposits come in they are swept into a shared wallet, which is what you found. I think most exchanges operate that way.

I'm sure someone's confirmed that. Does anyone have any links to such a confirmation?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: suchmoon on January 17, 2015, 04:48:56 AM
Each user has a separate deposit address of course. As deposits come in they are swept into a shared wallet, which is what you found. I think most exchanges operate that way.

I'm sure someone's confirmed that. Does anyone have any links to such a confirmation?

Google the address, there are quite a few references to it. For example:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=791367.msg9123497#msg9123497

You can also try to deposit some dust to BTC-E and see where it ends up.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: tadynek on January 17, 2015, 10:04:41 AM
bitcoinlabmining.com - Account suspended, no payment, admin does not answer.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 17, 2015, 10:23:30 AM
bitcoinlabmining.com - Account suspended, no payment, admin does not answer.

OMG, who'd have thought?

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/scale_small/2/27458/1173954-shocked.jpg

thanks for reporting though.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on January 17, 2015, 10:34:04 AM
these all were scams without any mining equipment.
At kryptologika we have reduced our maintenance fees by 5% since 15/01 ;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: tadynek on January 17, 2015, 11:14:41 AM
Does anyone have any information about  https://vulu.org


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ATCkit on January 17, 2015, 04:30:15 PM
Anyone seen this article:

http://techcrunch.com/2014/11/02/bitcoin-brothers-aim-to-disrupt-bitcoin-mining-with-new-more-powerful-supercomputers/

If Bitcoin Bros actually does have these super computers, this will drastically change cloud mining.

@Puppet, a ponzi test is in order for this one. There's not much info on their website yet.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Mabsark on January 17, 2015, 04:38:25 PM
Anyone seen this article:

http://techcrunch.com/2014/11/02/bitcoin-brothers-aim-to-disrupt-bitcoin-mining-with-new-more-powerful-supercomputers/

If Bitcoin Bros actually does have these super computers, this will drastically change cloud mining.

@Puppet, a ponzi test is in order for this one. There's not much info on their website yet.

From the article:

Quote
Financed in part by money the Welle brothers made as bitcoin miners in the technology’s early days, Bitcoin Brothers is working with TSMC to manufacture its proprietary 3D 16nm FinFET application-specific integrated circuits (ASICs), which the company designed itself.

Unfortunately for them, TSMC’s 16nm FinFET Faces Major Delay – Qualcomm Jumps Ship To Samsung (http://wccftech.com/tsmcs-16nm-finfet-faces-delays-qualcomm-jumps-ship-samsung/).


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Mabsark on January 18, 2015, 01:22:22 PM
I just posted this to the Cloud Mining Website thread:

dr1980m tried to purchase 30 Gh by sending 0.003 BTC to 1F91HzJaQZ1WGU9NG2ZhFaXctZD6vMsV3L from 13RJvPMzxdAyzXQNnLAAimrMQBGseRJRmC.

i make deposit BUT my GH's didn't come..
Please check it
order id: 2793
Here is detail :  http://blockchain.info/tx-index/2e0c0b2cda919cb7270f6ece7dccf4750724391d3bd51a4270130a8e2ad99240

which was later refunded from Cloud Mining Website's payout address (not the address it was sent to) as shown below:

Sorry its my default   :-[

Can i take my deposit ??

0.003BTC has been sent back to your withdrawal address.

https://blockchain.info/tx/4f78abc29316d72d2714fa6b9887f0f42ce97a536257427987976a6bfe1645d6

Feel free to let us know about any further support from our end.

From 1F91HzJaQZ1WGU9NG2ZhFaXctZD6vMsV3L, the 0.003 BTC is sent to 1LfpedDQLqqEmSDZ9B7v2sPzz5NeeDhXec. The first payment to 1LfpedDQLqqEmSDZ9B7v2sPzz5NeeDhXec was on 2014-11-02 08:42:37 (when Cloud Mining Website started) and receives multiple payments of amounts that are integer multiples of 0.001 BTC (Cloud Mining Website's price per Gh/s). Also, out of 242 transactions, only 3 involve coins moving from 1LfpedDQLqqEmSDZ9B7v2sPzz5NeeDhXec.

1LfpedDQLqqEmSDZ9B7v2sPzz5NeeDhXec is quite clearly a receiving address for "customer" payments which seem to pass through a unique address first.

The first payment out of 1LfpedDQLqqEmSDZ9B7v2sPzz5NeeDhXec sends 15.349 BTC to 1Ng9UahczApASvLVPCEoJmvnMAHTvXpFPH on 2015-01-11 18:26:36. From 1Ng9UahczApASvLVPCEoJmvnMAHTvXpFPH, 10.0803785 BTC is sent to 1DoXReLhoc4Qw528ejwhYBWE4DyctGJsRv, which sends the coins to 14uiWYG2kwjbm3AorVaB6qK6o2eSETCqRV and with a few other addresses, finally on to 1FsVcdeHbpvUVT3gjeuVR2ZSDnpcsJMsLL.

This give the following chain of transactions:

1LfpedDQLqqEmSDZ9B7v2sPzz5NeeDhXec > 1Ng9UahczApASvLVPCEoJmvnMAHTvXpFPH > 1DoXReLhoc4Qw528ejwhYBWE4DyctGJsRv > 14uiWYG2kwjbm3AorVaB6qK6o2eSETCqRV > 1FsVcdeHbpvUVT3gjeuVR2ZSDnpcsJMsLL

The latest transaction with 1LfpedDQLqqEmSDZ9B7v2sPzz5NeeDhXec (https://blockchain.info/tx/5edea64bb74c5a60d074c695cde1482a07b73b1301cf1db581bc1a7f3333aeed) shows that it received 0.01091639 BTC and a 1KufA3z7mLntENepGKo9Ktu9S7qAL2oLF3 received 0.3613364 BTC. Given that 1LfpedDQLqqEmSDZ9B7v2sPzz5NeeDhXec is the customer payment receiving address where the coins where sent to, 1KufA3z7mLntENepGKo9Ktu9S7qAL2oLF3 is a change address which is also belong to Cloud Mining Website. The coins that 1KufA3z7mLntENepGKo9Ktu9S7qAL2oLF3 receives are sent on to 1LAAhMSLXhLhvgrmdHancjhUyVE2rbcTuJ, then 11QSYSjTjadhNbKXgBcg4B3k5WjnEMkqP, then 1P9GfsxGavQVgZndXk1EbPyKmYwdtDYufB, to finally reach 1MPxhNkSzeTNTHSZAibMaS8HS1esmUL1ne (Eobot cloud mining)

This give the following chain of transactions:

1LfpedDQLqqEmSDZ9B7v2sPzz5NeeDhXec > 1KufA3z7mLntENepGKo9Ktu9S7qAL2oLF3 > 1LAAhMSLXhLhvgrmdHancjhUyVE2rbcTuJ > 1P9GfsxGavQVgZndXk1EbPyKmYwdtDYufB > 1MPxhNkSzeTNTHSZAibMaS8HS1esmUL1ne (Eobot cloud mining)

So Cloud Mining Website, can you explain why you are sending payments from customers to Eobot cloud mining? Also, why are your customers payments being sent to 1FsVcdeHbpvUVT3gjeuVR2ZSDnpcsJMsLL (an address familiar to recent cloud mining ponzi victims)?

If anyone posts on Cloud Mining Website's forums, ask them to come and explain that.

Further evidence linking Cloud Mining Website to Eobot:

1F91HzJaQZ1WGU9NG2ZhFaXctZD6vMsV3L (pay in address) > 1GNmnxWkComFYF7k8EBeKtgQz2sprUGYvM  > 1MPxhNkSzeTNTHSZAibMaS8HS1esmUL1ne (Eobot cloud mining)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: peligro on January 18, 2015, 03:38:54 PM
To summarise, cloud mining companies are either ponzis or legitimate. The legitimate ones never make any profit. The ponzi ones profit the early customers and makes the later ones suffer big losses. So the only reason for anybody to invest is if they feel they have identified a ponzi and are early.

The best thing to do is forget about cloud mining. I am surprised there is so much interest in these.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Mabsark on January 18, 2015, 04:31:33 PM
If anyone wants the sig:

Code:
[table][tr]
[td][size=20pt][b][color=red]WARNING[/color][/b][/size][/td]
[td]
[table][tr][td][center][size=10pt][b][url=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=850784.msg10216926#msg10216926]Click here for evidence that [color=#292929]cloudmin[/color][color=#FFC400]r[/color][color=#292929].io[/color] sends funds to Eobot and fakes customers.[/url][/b][/size][/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center][size=10pt][b][url=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=843417.msg10195621#msg10195621]Click here for evidence that [color=red]Cloud[/color] [color=green]Mining[/color] [color=blue]Website[/color] sends customers payments to Eobot.[/url][/b][/size][/center][/td][/tr][/table]
[/td]
[td]
[table][tr][td][center][size=13pt][b][url=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=878387.msg9697654#msg9697654][color=blue]CLOUDMINING 101[/color][/url][/b][/size][/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center][size=9pt][b][url=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=878387.msg9697654#msg9697654][color=blue]how to avoid scams[/color][/url][/b][/size][/center][/td][/tr][/table]
[/td][/tr][/table]




Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Cablez on January 18, 2015, 05:33:25 PM
This price crash is the best thing that could have happened in terms of flushing all the bad actors out into the open.  I can only hope that people will not be so flippant with their money in the future.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Totscha on January 19, 2015, 01:45:58 PM
New kid on the block:

http://hashwar.co/ (http://hashwar.co/)

I would give them a 6/7 score. They don't have an affiliate program, the rest is highly suspect.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Surger on January 19, 2015, 06:05:30 PM
New kid on the block:

http://hashwar.co/ (http://hashwar.co/)

I would give them a 6/7 score. They don't have an affiliate program, the rest is highly suspect.

minum
um package is 250 dolar  :o
they are playing big
must be carefully...


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: tmfp on January 19, 2015, 07:59:11 PM
Not counting any chickens just yet, but these Iqonia guys sound promising.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=927973.0

Will compile a score when a bit more info available.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: damiano on January 19, 2015, 09:01:52 PM
Not counting any chickens just yet, but these Iqonia guys sound promising.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=927973.0

Will compile a score when a bit more info available.



They do seem interesting.  If they can provide an address (they said they would once they start) and get BITMAIN or another vender to confirm their order I might buy a contract.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: tmfp on January 19, 2015, 09:21:52 PM
Not counting any chickens just yet, but these Iqonia guys sound promising.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=927973.0

Will compile a score when a bit more info available.



They do seem interesting.  If they can provide an address (they said they would once they start) and get BITMAIN or another vender to confirm their order I might buy a contract.


I've just done a bit more digging and Iqonia's parent company, white balance GMBH, appears to be owned by All3media Capital Ltd. a long term, multi million £ London registered media company.
This all subject to verification: having said that, I might be joining you.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on January 19, 2015, 09:23:03 PM
Not counting any chickens just yet, but these Iqonia guys sound promising.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=927973.0

Will compile a score when a bit more info available.



They do seem interesting.  If they can provide an address (they said they would once they start) and get BITMAIN or another vender to confirm their order I might buy a contract.
Why on Earth would you do that? Even if they are legit, they're charging $487.52/TH and have a $1.8/TH per day maintenance fee. At current difficulty 1TH/s is bringing in $2.46/day. Even if nothing changes on the network, it'd take years to make back your money.
If you really want you could buy a TH/s direct from Bitmain for $179, and the maintenance fee is lower at $1.64/TH per day.

Cloudmining isn't a great investment right now anyway, but even if they're legit this company is a particularly bad buy at the current prices.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: marcotheminer on January 20, 2015, 06:47:28 PM
I don't think #4 applies to BIT-X anymore (correct me if I'm wrong).


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Muhammed Zakir on January 20, 2015, 07:45:31 PM
I don't think #4 applies to BIT-X anymore (correct me if I'm wrong).

You are right! Bitfury is providing hash power but is the hashpower locked to a certain amount in Bit-X, if not it can't be removed. :)

   ~~MZ~~


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: marcotheminer on January 20, 2015, 08:03:14 PM
I don't think #4 applies to BIT-X anymore (correct me if I'm wrong).

You are right! Bitfury is providing hash power but is the hashpower locked to a certain amount in Bit-X, if not it can't be removed. :)

   ~~MZ~~

Currently, 1PH has been allocated to Bit-X, no specific requirements.
At this time, this is the only public trading place for BitFury's hashpower.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 20, 2015, 08:19:08 PM
I don't think #4 applies to BIT-X anymore (correct me if I'm wrong).

Where can we track how much they sold?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Mabsark on January 21, 2015, 05:58:12 PM
Cloud Mining Website's payout address is 1LKW6fiftaQg8UPp32ptdgJW587XXCDk3p. The first payout from that address was on 2014-11-10 13:09:18 to the following addresses (https://blockchain.info/tx/b669d6ce9b6aca58777803449897ab80d56730767224b5f7a85a64449bfeec57):

1S5jZoMaCAXU5ouCJUdqNqa91JyndhsKY - (Spent) 0.01383072 BTC
1GeMdyJAh89tYLKkMNwMq8NfSSuB8nubdq - (Spent) 0.00050792 BTC
13PqrhREgP7UtGCMfSmPFwSqonGfbwnBg4 - (Spent) 0.0005 BTC
1HVuXwqaTVbSyavVBUdERAzX23pdtJbSTz - (Spent) 0.00188095 BTC
1Gxx7hKXHHsYQqLemjrm9yxq7fyBpRmn6n - (Spent) 0.0167636 BTC
1Cuq6oPjmCAHYvf8P261X1kQtFSRYWxH4L - (Spent) 0.00050792 BTC
1AWH3FFgVmGkYqi6XXEBGWHxZh4jprimA8 - (Spent) 0.00380958 BTC
1PiVXGLoCZxkAXQoE1tgWUGcFNE4nxMMGp - (Spent) 0.01685437 BTC
1sXep2dchasM93tz5b4nVwKxyAwBC6NaL - (Spent) 0.00253972 BTC
1NUYC1Yn6D5QnbdJhrnfggrgMr9MxvZeHV - (Spent) 0.00787452 BTC
1PJsyKj7MFcDU2NhVGxzZwkACQm3kWSy4q - (Spent) 0.00380958 BTC
12VNyzMs2phSHieU8tn9tHJ12paBBYrkVs - (Spent) 0.0005 BTC
12sC4856yLHCVejxzDx9t2uFvqgSp93141 - (Spent) 0.00787452 BTC
1KtpNadiW7T9abF76auqaxiDRDXUsfS1Yy - (Unspent) 0.00078742 BTC
1GKjwnAoTNXeyGxyAuQj6RHVmdwX8PKHqy - (Spent) 0.00050794 BTC
1EyC24bBTjFQ97ro5Kbo1tZFAaxo2r2aEU - (Spent) 0.00256524 BTC
1ka4QPaJeKqpy27ta6Rich3YQhwPiUxia - (Spent) 0.00050792 BTC
1KzCLHBzih4AjDnqUXLoVmS8pVeCfrnGek - (Spent) 0.00393726 BTC
1MqXA26UJrMPHr8YqyQCa2wnpn3nJSyw5b - (Spent) 0.00064766 BTC
134RkePAuZzYqPBMhcbjyUgmQPnfjn11zn - (Spent) 0.00507944 BTC
1LKW6fiftaQg8UPp32ptdgJW587XXCDk3p - (Spent) 0.00861372 BTC

The following addresses go on to send funds to Eobot and include 1LfpedDQLqqEmSDZ9B7v2sPzz5NeeDhXec (a CMW collection address for incoming payments) in a transaction:

134RkePAuZzYqPBMhcbjyUgmQPnfjn11zn (https://blockchain.info/tx/2399f027cf3b25c599933e98c8ae8927f537f0a7a81dadbe6da293c6a8d79c34) > 18Xb24a6uxjQoFU4UM7Sf4qnBLGihshYMA (https://blockchain.info/tx/d3a90596f48e667cfba70a2bfb53f0432cb3e0c83744a43d7e1033dddca3b4a2) > 1EDQxwFYbwkk7Q64PatJaGbmrLGTV8hFg7 (https://blockchain.info/tx/a8466e787bf1bd22c1f658c4bfe701f4571f93d7644950c7dfacb023dc02559a) > 12gE6HhtuT2HQyWUn7uRUCjCLFWM1zbUg9 (https://blockchain.info/tx/a7a8421034504e82e657dc4d71a518ee616f1ad96079215c9e27880ff03b5f84) > 1MPxhNkSzeTNTHSZAibMaS8HS1esmUL1ne (Eobot)

1EyC24bBTjFQ97ro5Kbo1tZFAaxo2r2aEU (https://blockchain.info/tx/8130ca669eed141d631155b892cc308552c2109f899b44fc4b4cfbc0b8a4dba9) > 1trK54PHRtDkgyM8KfNHkvd8vCFfC8Xp9 (https://blockchain.info/tx/3aaa32b455489cd3cafe6bedd69160f85ddb5035db0e95ae9265610db66fe3dd) > 1CDqWP7q6qVJnqUQUPPE1CegA2KJfY5Fn (https://blockchain.info/tx/6b6ffd934428e79c25b889906d1820c5f9780ab4934298d6a549d39487c1d1e1) > 19SAkgM7vtkDn3jK3v8uJCFLethkp3hRpw (https://blockchain.info/tx/976942ac496a38f834aabcee050ce17dfaa8f06b60b0c6e085decd0721b0ac41) > 1Bd6HCqnep7R1LjKQdkkGx5dEKBsk49xrJ (https://blockchain.info/tx/81cd6597c14a1b91e1017dd6599c6077e0f2dd0ac4e4200865dd2bb81b2a7d93) > 1MPxhNkSzeTNTHSZAibMaS8HS1esmUL1ne (Eobot)

1KtpNadiW7T9abF76auqaxiDRDXUsfS1Yy (https://blockchain.info/tx/a7e78c2cdffd79b39a272685ac5b245e487d8b7a6dca577a86f99c0cfddddfed) > 1PYb6PX2R7wzKos2MGAVs2kYwaZbHF3VUk (https://blockchain.info/address/1PYb6PX2R7wzKos2MGAVs2kYwaZbHF3VUk) > 1MjC3Pmj2UjZWwNx4wML87ksPswQYDznDD (https://blockchain.info/tx/5839ebb44526eec78a2f5ae5e86b73e919687d350d7cab6a75c8a880db4aeaf4) > 15R9sp6pZf3m8tJutpwZHSSyBPuzuBZr1s (https://blockchain.info/tx/fcd311c7e0000a5d292557105460e3ac70690bfd53ec1e2a062e35f85a62423c) > 1MPxhNkSzeTNTHSZAibMaS8HS1esmUL1ne (Eobot)

1NUYC1Yn6D5QnbdJhrnfggrgMr9MxvZeHV (https://blockchain.info/tx/eef42828d69ec0249dae2ace735b03b988be5ba0ab52325cd5dd20ef24ae3648) > 1CrGgHK1SuG6F5XE7DkeeVR3mS8EojzivM (https://blockchain.info/tx/1c4c5bdbad9c96714b1e86c067a47e78d36b2261d721d9e239d08b9a4518a31f) > 1CC4shQ5AKrLZdY4yZsje9soXNVS1xMYb5 (https://blockchain.info/tx/0d21a08f04666ff148fd98386a0ef0e3171c759767e055b5abe53dbf3b4cae8e) > 1KDdqF1uUW9G3XDKQDSPjPLPMPg4tXzD7G (https://blockchain.info/tx/bfd10d0bf400215b15b16aedbd84e42bbd7be294ca35972552b6b0e30d79d85c) > 1GC9SfN7dYonyuGSHrhVxtMbYcuXFR9Koj (https://blockchain.info/tx/f0893fd0b5c5594ca05882dc6b22c7beb6dc0b73d141851c851d1b182fc823c3) > 1MPxhNkSzeTNTHSZAibMaS8HS1esmUL1ne (Eobot)

1PiVXGLoCZxkAXQoE1tgWUGcFNE4nxMMGp (https://blockchain.info/tx/45ca152dfc3ae18b13704017715511deb7c14a13bf5e05d4ba40cd9aad7f32cb) > 1JPG7aob1p7HstxgfExbyittzeUcNXpQjC (https://blockchain.info/tx/507a5fac0f7089755984df711179457d5f75a076c728410c8d423b446e0db9e0) > 1HbPVgQLxqgWDk3DLi9rngNBNX8wVbhnqG (https://blockchain.info/tx/52bd127ef6ea89afa580c3626097d46161da9cde3c2f4aaeda945fb16fb0e99f) > 1GTFsNgN2HVgY55xKEonbYcQWyJViRA2vG (https://blockchain.info/tx/80d1c97b060aae765a99d51d9824318547b55df1b3a0d5758980b8b6bcee11f6) > 1MPxhNkSzeTNTHSZAibMaS8HS1esmUL1ne (Eobot)

1HVuXwqaTVbSyavVBUdERAzX23pdtJbSTz (https://blockchain.info/tx/bc8423c4490b8b9c3054771e5f5956da1d82006762ca9eda98c9094122ee2a7c) > 1E5Ru8dkRsUzJtdHugTDo1yL9s47S2dsyG (https://blockchain.info/tx/3405f62a6cb20de71ec258c9e6c037ac1d99b51359a637dd1c7454ddddb4a327) > 1NszG3hZFKPXEsCUnUTCZnhGu2fUZQLUHg (https://blockchain.info/tx/0fb6df14fa2e6f354f2dea463879afd393b70c37eb0c663dd36b02bba519752b) > 1MPxhNkSzeTNTHSZAibMaS8HS1esmUL1ne (Eobot)

1GeMdyJAh89tYLKkMNwMq8NfSSuB8nubdq (https://blockchain.info/tx/b255cc1348baff61affb2a4988c36a364572a87f683a83b955cba2c876838cb7) > 19Z8GBHzC2adEHfgDkfvqCBwTrNPmijPJt (https://blockchain.info/tx/a4702d30ccecc1b4efa1b42da572f67196b7708752aac2523956a34e49ac39f2) > 1Mvie3e49r5LsbittvaLPodYz4mR1ZZUgx (https://blockchain.info/tx/8142f1cb897a2d372fe0aee53a3d0ec96fcd16ab1f1e8be35dfbbcf54513dee4) > 19NojCdwPMksCN4SWYtGCdM7RHGrPaf1Ka (https://blockchain.info/tx/4a078866ffb717255e4c8e03fa306bda878d822a9d78ea97c9946e273e29b4de) > 1Pz4zyH9aJJy2XeyTbQMGbroyn8eryvsHB (https://blockchain.info/tx/dff4d6d199af8d284284fe1a06ad0507a083438a63c658ccdac4297189dd43ad) > 1MPxhNkSzeTNTHSZAibMaS8HS1esmUL1ne (Eobot)

And that's just from the first payment! Here are another two as well:

1NkVkNiNdn4bXJ34U7BZo8aK1qPLiQnnvM (krunox123) (https://blockchain.info/tx/c97f0b50465252ef78706fe83de74af520fc6b9007bd0a34c25dba98c57d995b) > 1EtatR2NRht9JFjmF9x99i6oztFHfM839V (https://blockchain.info/tx/2de89dba6333ca2162f399ea7de363047295c73f3b393ea3da24c2fb5d11777a) > 1LFHUrUwjUydvPx9uCVjq4m6uQ7gaHALh3 (https://blockchain.info/tx/fc37f639f276f6dac5cdca5784af5f4484f119a144a943a225d05a57eb799827) > 1MPxhNkSzeTNTHSZAibMaS8HS1esmUL1ne (Eobot)

13RJvPMzxdAyzXQNnLAAimrMQBGseRJRmC (https://blockchain.info/tx/2e0c0b2cda919cb7270f6ece7dccf4750724391d3bd51a4270130a8e2ad99240) > 1F91HzJaQZ1WGU9NG2ZhFaXctZD6vMsV3L (https://blockchain.info/tx/b8ef07c06bb569288bc2d034a7edad1bdab607b4d0fad009979a7a5effd1e4b6) > 1GNmnxWkComFYF7k8EBeKtgQz2sprUGYvM (https://blockchain.info/tx/0d1fccbb508d514b08cb50e6ab6eb841a8d9d841fb89e9b9f550e192d15992be) > 1MPxhNkSzeTNTHSZAibMaS8HS1esmUL1ne (Eobot)

Cloud Mining Website is quite clearly sending customers funds to Eobot.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: marcotheminer on January 21, 2015, 06:13:39 PM
I don't think #4 applies to BIT-X anymore (correct me if I'm wrong).

Where can we track how much they sold?

Market depth? I think I see what information is needed. Does AMhash or hashnest provide this information?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Muhammed Zakir on January 21, 2015, 06:22:56 PM
I don't think #4 applies to BIT-X anymore (correct me if I'm wrong).

Where can we track how much they sold?

Market depth? I think I see what information is needed. Does AMhash or hashnest provide this information?

AMhash : http://www.amhash.com/pricing.htm

Don't know about hashnest. ???

   ~~MZ~~


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: marcotheminer on January 21, 2015, 07:02:19 PM
I don't think #4 applies to BIT-X anymore (correct me if I'm wrong).

Where can we track how much they sold?

Market depth? I think I see what information is needed. Does AMhash or hashnest provide this information?

AMhash : http://www.amhash.com/pricing.htm

Don't know about hashnest. ???

   ~~MZ~~

It's provided by themselves so the information could be extremely inaccurate or fake.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 21, 2015, 08:02:27 PM
Market depth? I think I see what information is needed. Does AMhash or hashnest provide this information?

No, not market depth. How much they actually sold, so you can compare it to the 1PH we know they have.
For Amhash you can easily check this on havelock (at least for those units that where bought there or imported later).
I dont remember where on hashnest, but it was also listed somewhere, but its reasonable to assume anyway they have more than enough capacity anyway.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Mabsark on January 23, 2015, 06:37:37 AM
Spondoolies just announced its cloud mining service:

I've missed Bitcointalk :)

Zvisha implemented the scheduler, please give it a try: http://www.spondoolies-tech.com/blogs/technical-blog

Also, we're doing soft launch of our cloud mining offerings. It's partnership with Genesis Mining.
We're brining small amount of hash power online in our Israeli DC. Upon selling of contracts, we'll ship mining gear to cover the contracts to Genesis Mining DC in Iceland.

Guy

Also, Mine That Cloud is now redirecting to Cloud Mining Website. That one didn't last long.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Dilemma on January 23, 2015, 08:07:16 AM
now i cant open MineThatCloud web site?
are they gone?
or is it about my net?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: IanFoxley on January 23, 2015, 08:29:37 AM
Spondoolies just announced its cloud mining service:

I've missed Bitcointalk :)

Zvisha implemented the scheduler, please give it a try: http://www.spondoolies-tech.com/blogs/technical-blog

Also, we're doing soft launch of our cloud mining offerings. It's partnership with Genesis Mining.
We're brining small amount of hash power online in our Israeli DC. Upon selling of contracts, we'll ship mining gear to cover the contracts to Genesis Mining DC in Iceland.

Guy

Also, Mine That Cloud is now redirecting to Cloud Mining Website. That one didn't last long.

Ah so Spondoolies have linked up with Genesis Mining, that's interesting...surely that must be more evidence that they are not a Ponzi risk, surely.. Spondoolies is quite a large Asic manufacturer.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Spondoolies-Tech on January 23, 2015, 08:59:43 AM
Spondoolies just announced its cloud mining service:

I've missed Bitcointalk :)

Zvisha implemented the scheduler, please give it a try: http://www.spondoolies-tech.com/blogs/technical-blog

Also, we're doing soft launch of our cloud mining offerings. It's partnership with Genesis Mining.
We're brining small amount of hash power online in our Israeli DC. Upon selling of contracts, we'll ship mining gear to cover the contracts to Genesis Mining DC in Iceland.

Guy

Also, Mine That Cloud is now redirecting to Cloud Mining Website. That one didn't last long.

Ah so Spondoolies have linked up with Genesis Mining, that's interesting...surely that must be more evidence that they are not a Ponzi risk, surely.. Spondoolies is quite a large Asic manufacturer.
Genesis Miming is 100% backed by hardware.
We have very good business relations with them and I consider the owners and the CTO friends.
You'll notice that they're out of stock on the Alt sales, because they ran out of hardware.

Guy


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ligeros on January 23, 2015, 09:30:37 AM
minethatcloud was down the whole day, now it redirected to cloudmining.website
it seems too stupid even for scammers
may be they was hacked?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Mabsark on January 23, 2015, 09:44:50 AM
Remember when Guy vouched for NexusMining and Skye posted:

Why does their Reset Password page say "Genesis Mining"?

Now Spondoolies are officially partnering with Genesis Mining to provide cloud mining. I find that pretty interesting.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Spondoolies-Tech on January 23, 2015, 10:33:31 AM
Remember when Guy vouched for NexusMining and Skye posted:

Why does their Reset Password page say "Genesis Mining"?

Now Spondoolies are officially partnering with Genesis Mining to provide cloud mining. I find that pretty interesting.
When I vouched for Nexus Mining I clearly said It's because I know it's a white label of Genesis Mining and I'm familiar with Genesis Mining. I was drag into Nexus Mining thread.
Our cloud mining offering is also based on Genesis Mining backend. I explained the details in our thread.

Guy


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Mabsark on January 23, 2015, 11:10:22 AM
Remember when Guy vouched for NexusMining and Skye posted:

Why does their Reset Password page say "Genesis Mining"?

Now Spondoolies are officially partnering with Genesis Mining to provide cloud mining. I find that pretty interesting.
When I vouched for Nexus Mining I clearly said It's because I know it's a white label of Genesis Mining and I'm familiar with Genesis Mining. I was drag into Nexus Mining thread.
Our cloud mining offering is also based on Genesis Mining backend. I explained the details in our thread.

Guy

Actually, you made no mention of Genesis Mining. You said:

- Nexus Mining is legit, they're currently white labeling a respectable cloud mining provider.

I'm not saying you're lying or anything, I just think it's interesting.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Spondoolies-Tech on January 23, 2015, 11:12:41 AM
Remember when Guy vouched for NexusMining and Skye posted:

Why does their Reset Password page say "Genesis Mining"?

Now Spondoolies are officially partnering with Genesis Mining to provide cloud mining. I find that pretty interesting.
When I vouched for Nexus Mining I clearly said It's because I know it's a white label of Genesis Mining and I'm familiar with Genesis Mining. I was drag into Nexus Mining thread.
Our cloud mining offering is also based on Genesis Mining backend. I explained the details in our thread.

Guy

Actually, you made no mention of Genesis Mining. You said:

- Nexus Mining is legit, they're currently white labeling a respectable cloud mining provider.

I'm not saying you're lying or anything, I just think it's interesting.
You're correct. I didn't recall the exact phrasing I've used.

Edit: It was pretty obvious to anyone reading the thread that Nexus Mining is a white label of Genesis Mining.
I was dragged into that thread and I didn't want to be involved more than the absolute minimum necessary.
We have excellent working relations with Genesis Mining. We had some discussion with Nexus Mining people as well on other stuff.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Dilemma on January 23, 2015, 11:18:27 AM
i cant find Minethatcloud's topic in forum
is it deleted?
and havent any news from them  ???


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Mabsark on January 23, 2015, 11:45:23 AM
i cant find Minethatcloud's topic in forum
is it deleted?
and havent any news from them  ???

Does it really surprise you that a "company" that refused to provide any evidence of legitimacy has buggered off with your money? Would you hand over money to some proper shady guy in a dark alley telling you to wait there and he'll be back soon with some goodies for you?

Just remember this from now on: No evidence of legitimacy for me, no fucking money for you.

To answer your question though, the thread is locked and buried a few pages in.



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Dilemma on January 23, 2015, 12:12:25 PM
i cant find Minethatcloud's topic in forum
is it deleted?
and havent any news from them  ???

Does it really surprise you that a "company" that refused to provide any evidence of legitimacy has buggered off with your money? Would you hand over money to some proper shady guy in a dark alley telling you to wait there and he'll be back soon with some goodies for you?

Just remember this from now on: No evidence of legitimacy for me, no fucking money for you.

To answer your question though, the thread is locked and buried a few pages in.



firstly i was here with promotion free gh's
secondly yes it's suprise for me..
i know they will collabse but not in first week
it was very short life for them :)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Tigggger on January 23, 2015, 12:48:36 PM
secondly yes it's suprise for me..
i know they will collabse but not in first week
it was very short life for them :)

Ah the old "I know it's a ponzi but if I get in early I can still profit" gamble

... Unlucky


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ligeros on January 23, 2015, 03:05:53 PM
i cant find Minethatcloud's topic in forum
is it deleted?
and havent any news from them  ???

here is their topic
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=924593.0
but it is locked


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Dilemma on January 23, 2015, 05:03:03 PM
secondly yes it's suprise for me..
i know they will collabse but not in first week
it was very short life for them :)

Ah the old "I know it's a ponzi but if I get in early I can still profit" gamble

... Unlucky

i told you, i dont invest any single satoshi to here
i was here with their free Gh promotion :)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: tmfp on January 23, 2015, 05:13:05 PM
secondly yes it's suprise for me..
i know they will collabse but not in first week
it was very short life for them :)

Ah the old "I know it's a ponzi but if I get in early I can still profit" gamble

... Unlucky

i told you, i dont invest any single satoshi to here
i was here with their free Gh promotion :)

This is why "free promotions" are a red flag for a ponzi.
They are giving away nothing, but the recipients bring the illusion of activity and are more likely to put some real money in after seeing a few bogus figures.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: clownius on January 23, 2015, 05:47:13 PM
secondly yes it's suprise for me..
i know they will collabse but not in first week
it was very short life for them :)

Ah the old "I know it's a ponzi but if I get in early I can still profit" gamble

... Unlucky

Gladdens my heart to see the people playing this game get burned.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ChrisCh on January 23, 2015, 08:38:16 PM
clown?ious you should check the reasons behind that. I can not understand your problem if someone wants to risk HIS money for illusions? should i guess you tried to gain money and you lost and it created a psychological problem? :-*


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: clownius on January 23, 2015, 10:32:12 PM
clown?ious you should check the reasons behind that. I can not understand your problem if someone wants to risk HIS money for illusions? should i guess you tried to gain money and you lost and it created a psychological problem? :-*

Only lost money in Mt Gox and i tired 4 solid months to get out once the alarm bells started ringing. 

Im not stupid enough to play Ponzi miner. 

Never been a fan of anything cloud to be honest.  Except for ex-lease cloud servers off ebay  ;D


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Cloudminingsg on January 27, 2015, 09:19:26 AM
Here's another two CLOUD MINING SERVICES for you to look at:

Thanks, added both with preliminary assessment.
For POW88 :
pow88.com             1+2                => 2/7 = Probably legit (preliminary assessment)

I didnt give them a point for referral because its only 1%. PIctures dont look impressive, but neither does the available hashrate (50TH), this is a small operation.

Cloudmining.sg doesnt look that good so far:
cloudmining.sg        1+2+3+4+7          => 5/7 = (very) suspicious (preliminary assessment)

And ive been generous granting them point 6 (identity) despite the fact there isnt even a contact address on their site, but I guess this will do:
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/neal-blackburn/25/305/139



Dear OP,
Thank you for providing the service to educate us on how to spot Ponzi Schemes, as such operators have tainted the cloudmining industy negatively.
Your commended efforts are much needed and lacking in this industry that lacks transparency and regulation.  

I'm Peter (http://sg.linkedin.com/in/peteryeo (http://sg.linkedin.com/in/peteryeo)), Founder of Cloudmining.SG FB.com/cloudminingsg (https://www.facebook.com/cloudminingsg)
Our apologies for our poorly maintained website as we have yet to focus our efforts on the marketing elements such as website of cloudmining.sg as we have a lean team and we were focused on gearing up the infrastructure of the facility. Due to our economies of scale and local government support, we have managed to obtain an extremely low cost of US$0.084 per kwh, which has allowed us to continue to be profitable vs other unprofitable cloudmining operations that were forced to shutdown.

I would like to invite you to visit our 4MW capacity mining facility with over 3% of the 1.1TH/s Global hashrate of Litecoin and Dogecoin
(if you are in the region or anyone from the forum who is based here or is attending the InsideBitcoinSG event in Singapore.)
http://i62.tinypic.com/30sda1i.jpghttps://drive.google.com/a/cloudmining.sg/file/d/0B3o50kQaonk-S19NTU5PX0kxRWc/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/a/cloudmining.sg/file/d/0B3o50kQaonk-S19NTU5PX0kxRWc/view?usp=sharing)

We have previously been interviewed by the Local Newspaper - The Business Times (Singapore)
http://www.cloudmining.sg/blog (http://www.cloudmining.sg/blog)
Interview by Local Newspaper Article-Jul 2014 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3o50kQaonk-ZHRkbUU5UmFOMVU/edit?usp=sharing)

and we are the Main Sponsor at the InsideBitcoins Conference in Singapore
http://insidebitcoins.com/singapore/2015/sponsors (http://insidebitcoins.com/singapore/2015/sponsors)

Bear in mind if you are in Singapore, the authorities are extremely strict, where the authorities will even charge a fine for chewing bubblegum, let alone run a shady operation.
Hefty Fine and even Jail time for chewing gum (http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/aol/search/display/view.w3p;page=0;query=DocId%3A%22125e649f-9e18-4cd1-9950-619cd8e2e0a1%22%20Status%3Ainforce%20Depth%3A0;rec=0)   ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: NeonTranceBadger on January 27, 2015, 01:29:13 PM
Looks like you can officially put hashie.co as collapsed. 


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: AJRGale on January 27, 2015, 02:20:41 PM
Looks like you can officially put hashie.co as collapsed. 

Ha,
hashie.co | Error 522 Ray ID: 1af59507a9f804ce
Connection timed out
...another one bites the dust


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: skuser on January 27, 2015, 03:56:05 PM

Bear in mind if you are in Singapore, the authorities are extremely strict, where the authorities will even charge a fine for chewing bubblegum, let alone run a shady operation.
Hefty Fine and even Jail time for chewing gum (http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/aol/search/display/view.w3p;page=0;query=DocId%3A%22125e649f-9e18-4cd1-9950-619cd8e2e0a1%22%20Status%3Ainforce%20Depth%3A0;rec=0)   ;D ;D ;D


Hey Peter, maybe you could setup your webserver so it works also without www ;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 28, 2015, 09:25:23 AM
...
I'm Peter (http://sg.linkedin.com/in/peteryeo (http://sg.linkedin.com/in/peteryeo)), Founder of Cloudmining.SG FB.com/cloudminingsg (https://www.facebook.com/cloudminingsg)
Our apologies for our poorly maintained website as we have yet to focus our efforts on the marketing elements such as website of cloudmining.sg as we have a lean team and we were focused on gearing up the infrastructure of the facility. Due to our economies of scale and local government support, we have managed to obtain an extremely low cost of US$0.084 per kwh, which has allowed us to continue to be profitable vs other unprofitable cloudmining operations that were forced to shutdown.

I would like to invite you to visit our 4MW capacity mining facility with over 3% of the 1.1TH/s Global hashrate of Litecoin and Dogecoin
(if you are in the region or anyone from the forum who is based here or is attending the InsideBitcoinSG event in Singapore.)
 ..

Thank you for providing additional information.  
The google drive link doesnt work without permission, but I will grant you the point for #3 based on the picture you did post.
Unfortunately for you, that still leaves you with 4 points, at least one of which should be easy to address by publishing your pool / mining address(es) details.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 28, 2015, 09:26:23 AM
Looks like you can officially put hashie.co as collapsed. 

Its been marked as such for ages.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Totscha on January 28, 2015, 09:49:04 AM
New kid on the block:

http://hashwar.co/ (http://hashwar.co/)

I would give them a 6/7 score. They don't have an affiliate program, the rest is highly suspect.

This needs a bump, Puppet ;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: acquafredda on January 29, 2015, 06:02:30 PM
We found this news not yet confirmed in the Italian Cointellect FB group (in which there's also Daniel Fonseca from the company).

That's what they say...

Quote
With hard work. The thing is we have more than 70000 customers. Lots of them when bitcoin drop request the money. We are a small company and we were not expecting so much request. So when we started with the delays, more and more customers did the same and start to request money. So our system failed. If all customers of a bank went there to take out the money, in the same day, the bank will not pay you. Everyone knows that and accept. We are passing the same. There is feel of fear in the air and a kind of panic and lots of customers made a lot of requests. So We are paying very slowly because the number of request is too high. I am sorry for that situation but like I told before we are working hard to pay to all customers.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 29, 2015, 06:55:17 PM
So cointellect is collapsing.. no actual mining company would have trouble paying out what they mine.

In other news, Skycoinlab tried to win a point in my scoring by disclosing domain name registration info.
Which only lead me to find out the guy behind it is a serial ponzi organiser:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=583177.msg10298730#msg10298730

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

Oh, and I added hashwar a while ago, forgot to mention it.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: tmfp on January 29, 2015, 08:50:18 PM

In other news, Skycoinlab tried to win a point in my scoring by disclosing domain name registration info.
Which only lead me to find out the guy behind it is a serial ponzi organiser:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=583177.msg10298730#msg10298730

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

Funnily enough, I came across the MLM world myself just recently, when I followed im0rtel's (the MineThatCloud shill) strange sig.
It led to "BitClub Network, a Passive Bitcoin Mining Opportunity" (7/7 on the Puppet Scale)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=762075.msg10260402#msg10260402

If you were to think that "passive" here refers to the ease of having a cloud mining contract, you would be wrong.
It's classic MLM (Multi Level Marketing) speak for a matrix referral program.
Briefly, MLM's are similar to Ponzi's but distribute the suckers' money amongst themselves by moving up thru levels.
This is a huge industry worldwide, recruitment done by high pressure selling to naive investors and "Bitcoin mining" is perfect material for them.
Just to give an idea of how they view Bitcoin mining, have a look at  https://www.bitcoincycler.net/ 
Go to the Comp Plan page, they hardly mention hashrate or difficulty, it's all about referral levels and marketing bullshit.

BitcoinCycler is "sponsored by Skycoinlab", as is made clear on Lavoie's Google+ page, he runs them both https://plus.google.com/110365658930595040182/posts.

And as the http://behindmlm.com/ scambusters report, both Skycoinlab and BitClub Network operators have their roots in the $500m Zeek Rewards ponzi.
These people are thieving filth.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ligeros on January 29, 2015, 11:56:40 PM
it seems cloudmin.in was born to die
it is down last two days
they even did not start wide advertisement (or I missed it)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: crazyivan on January 30, 2015, 12:30:22 PM
Why don't you put LTCgear under collapsed? They have not paid their clients for 8 weeks. The fact the website s still online means shit.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: akustik on January 30, 2015, 12:33:57 PM
Why don't you put LTCgear under collapsed? They have not paid their clients for 8 weeks. The fact the website s still online means shit.

Have you got investment in LTCGear?
Are they really dont pay last 8 week?
it means SCAM..


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: clownius on January 30, 2015, 12:36:39 PM
Why don't you put LTCgear under collapsed? They have not paid their clients for 8 weeks. The fact the website s still online means shit.

Looks like its already on the collapsed list


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Totscha on January 30, 2015, 12:57:22 PM
Why don't you put LTCgear under collapsed? They have not paid their clients for 8 weeks. The fact the website s still online means shit.

Looks like its already on the collapsed list

Puppet put it under collapsed weeks ago ;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jimmothy on January 31, 2015, 06:15:54 AM
GAWminers collapsed.

http://i.imgur.com/WdrR2NI.png


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: icanscript on January 31, 2015, 08:20:33 AM
GAWminers collapsed.

http://i.imgur.com/WdrR2NI.png

Surprise Surprise


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: crazyivan on January 31, 2015, 10:29:06 AM
Bitman/Hashnest also seems to start going down. People start reporting very weird things, blocks cannot be found for 7-8 hours which results in negative profits. This whole cloud mining industry seems to be one large pile of crap.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ligeros on January 31, 2015, 10:35:44 AM
Bitman/Hashnest also seems to start going down. People start reporting very weird things, blocks cannot be found for 7-8 hours which results in negative profits. This whole cloud mining industry seems to be one large pile of crap.

last day was hard for hashnest
especially for UMISOO owners

Time   Block*   Payout/THS   BTC/Price(BTCchina-CNY)   Duration   Maintenance/THS   Earnings/THS
2015-01-31 10:08:51   341281   0.0007373   1455.2   2 h 44 m 43 s   0.00113195   -0.00039465
2015-01-31 07:13:23   341266   0.0007367   1420.65   4 h 5 m 47 s   0.00173004   -0.00099334
2015-01-31 03:42:02   341246   0.0007321   1414.25   1 h 7 m 21 s   0.00047621   0.00025589
2015-01-31 02:23:17   341238   0.0007269   1416.0   7 h 12 m 46 s   0.00305623   -0.00232933
2015-01-30 19:29:31   341195   0.0007321   1426.76   3 h 49 m 31 s   0.00160869   -0.00087659
2015-01-30 15:16:24   341171   0.0007338   1424.75   2 h 53 m 39 s   0.0012188   -0.000485
2015-01-30 13:37:20   341158   0.0007185   1441.71   7 h 53 m   0.0032808   -0.0025623


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on January 31, 2015, 10:40:33 AM
Not to worry

Quote
CLOUD MINING WILL PROFIT FROM BITCOIN PRICE RISE, SAYS GENESIS CEO

What a revelation. Next he´ll probably figure out that cloud formation will lead to rain.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: crazyivan on January 31, 2015, 10:53:30 AM
Bitman/Hashnest also seems to start going down. People start reporting very weird things, blocks cannot be found for 7-8 hours which results in negative profits. This whole cloud mining industry seems to be one large pile of crap.

last day was hard for hashnest
especially for UMISOO owners

Time   Block*   Payout/THS   BTC/Price(BTCchina-CNY)   Duration   Maintenance/THS   Earnings/THS
2015-01-31 10:08:51   341281   0.0007373   1455.2   2 h 44 m 43 s   0.00113195   -0.00039465
2015-01-31 07:13:23   341266   0.0007367   1420.65   4 h 5 m 47 s   0.00173004   -0.00099334
2015-01-31 03:42:02   341246   0.0007321   1414.25   1 h 7 m 21 s   0.00047621   0.00025589
2015-01-31 02:23:17   341238   0.0007269   1416.0   7 h 12 m 46 s   0.00305623   -0.00232933
2015-01-30 19:29:31   341195   0.0007321   1426.76   3 h 49 m 31 s   0.00160869   -0.00087659
2015-01-30 15:16:24   341171   0.0007338   1424.75   2 h 53 m 39 s   0.0012188   -0.000485
2015-01-30 13:37:20   341158   0.0007185   1441.71   7 h 53 m   0.0032808   -0.0025623

Thats what I ve been saying. They used to find 3 blocks in an hour, now 4 hours per block is an average. Very fishy.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on January 31, 2015, 11:05:30 AM
Who knows, maybe some of the so called ponzi scams will be among the very last men standing  ;D


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: crazyivan on January 31, 2015, 11:15:13 AM
Who knows, maybe some of the so called ponzi scams will be among the very last men standing  ;D

Ah, this crytpo turned from such a shiny coin into a mud pit, filled with scamers and speculators.
Guess there s no industry which can exist without some serious regulation. It s in human nature to scam other people.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on January 31, 2015, 11:18:35 AM
Who knows, maybe some of the so called ponzi scams will be among the very last men standing  ;D

Ah, this crytpo turned from such a shiny coin into a mud pit, filled with scamers and speculators.
Guess there s no industry which can exist without some serious regulation. It s in human nature to scam other people.

Yep, that´s what I´ve been trying to explain to cultists around here. With limited success obviously. The faith is too strong  ;D


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on January 31, 2015, 11:21:21 AM
Hey, I´m happy to report that I suddenly received .666 BTC from PB Mining for some mysterious reason. This amounts to half of what I was down with them.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: IanFoxley on January 31, 2015, 11:43:30 AM
Hey, I´m happy to report that I suddenly received .666 BTC from PB Mining for some mysterious reason. This amounts to half of what I was down with them.

666?  ;D


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on January 31, 2015, 11:46:56 AM
Hey, I´m happy to report that I suddenly received .666 BTC from PB Mining for some mysterious reason. This amounts to half of what I was down with them.

666?  ;D

Can´t imagine why. Not only that but right after PBM blew up my beloved 66 coin had a 1000% pop resulting in a little windfall for me. Very strange.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on January 31, 2015, 11:55:46 AM
Ah, this crytpo turned from such a shiny coin into a mud pit, filled with scamers and speculators.
Guess there s no industry which can exist without some serious regulation. It s in human nature to scam other people.

Its not in my nature, nor to fall for scams.
Then again I havent been investing in,  and luring people in to just about any btc HYIP known to man.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on January 31, 2015, 12:21:31 PM
Well, when you have a marketplace that is devoid of all regulation and law enforcement  then morale and confidence soon goes out the window for the simple reason that the playing field isn´t level for the players. Scammers, which have free play in such an insane environment have unfair advantage in the market for reasons that should be clear to most people.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on January 31, 2015, 12:25:51 PM
When you try to explain this elementary concept to retarded libertarians and other anti-government kooks that have done a splendid job of destroying public interest and trust in bitcoin - you soon find out that you could as well be talking to the wall.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: idonothave on January 31, 2015, 08:21:36 PM
https://terabox.me/


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on January 31, 2015, 08:30:01 PM
Bitman/Hashnest also seems to start going down. People start reporting very weird things, blocks cannot be found for 7-8 hours which results in negative profits. This whole cloud mining industry seems to be one large pile of crap.

last day was hard for hashnest
especially for UMISOO owners

Time   Block*   Payout/THS   BTC/Price(BTCchina-CNY)   Duration   Maintenance/THS   Earnings/THS
2015-01-31 10:08:51   341281   0.0007373   1455.2   2 h 44 m 43 s   0.00113195   -0.00039465
2015-01-31 07:13:23   341266   0.0007367   1420.65   4 h 5 m 47 s   0.00173004   -0.00099334
2015-01-31 03:42:02   341246   0.0007321   1414.25   1 h 7 m 21 s   0.00047621   0.00025589
2015-01-31 02:23:17   341238   0.0007269   1416.0   7 h 12 m 46 s   0.00305623   -0.00232933
2015-01-30 19:29:31   341195   0.0007321   1426.76   3 h 49 m 31 s   0.00160869   -0.00087659
2015-01-30 15:16:24   341171   0.0007338   1424.75   2 h 53 m 39 s   0.0012188   -0.000485
2015-01-30 13:37:20   341158   0.0007185   1441.71   7 h 53 m   0.0032808   -0.0025623

Thats what I ve been saying. They used to find 3 blocks in an hour, now 4 hours per block is an average. Very fishy.
The might have occasionally found 3 blocks in an hour, but that was nowhere near their average. You would need 150PH/s to find 3 blocks an hour.
More likely they were lucky for awhile, and are in a stretch of bad luck. It happens.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Syke on February 01, 2015, 02:39:11 AM
https://terabox.me/

Already listed

Code:
terabox.me            1+2+3*+4+5+6+7*    => 6/7 = Ponzi (pictures are not convincing to me for now, exit strategy involves  60+ days stall tactic)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: julian071 on February 01, 2015, 08:27:16 PM
Well, when you have a marketplace that is devoid of all regulation and law enforcement  then morale and confidence soon goes out the window for the simple reason that the playing field isn´t level for the players. Scammers, which have free play in such an insane environment have unfair advantage in the market for reasons that should be clear to most people.

The true libertarians don't find that unfair. To them, the people that get scammed have only themselves to blame. This is a result of their atomic view of people, where everyone is really isolated from everyone else, most notably in the realm of ethics and morals. That sentiment resounds in this thread too.

You can read about how the world would look if the libertarians took over in a book that is very popular in America, Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. To me, a sociopathic dystopia, to most libertarians a bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on February 01, 2015, 08:37:13 PM
Like I said, talk to the wall. These people would never ever associate zero buying interest in bitcoin and constantly tanking price with cratering confidence and trust due to their bankrupt ideology. These morons really believe that a total lack of any regulation and law enforcement attracts the broad public to a marketplace.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Tigggger on February 02, 2015, 10:50:08 AM
Someone mentioned this one to me, it actually made me laugh

http://www.minerking.com/

Sadly 100PH for $59 is out of stock :)

You can still buy

http://i.imgur.com/QrA0ooZ.png

At least they are honest enough to show you will get $0 back


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: peligro on February 02, 2015, 10:52:19 AM
GAWminers collapsed.

http://i.imgur.com/WdrR2NI.png

Finally!

This is the gold standard for mining ponzis. You have got to respect them the way they managed to keep continuing for so long and then provided the grand finish with Paycoin.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: kingbruce on February 02, 2015, 07:53:47 PM
Cloudmining does has a very bad rep. That is why with my friends who ask me should they get into cloudmining I tell them hell no. Me personally I still bring in about $4k a month from cloudmining but this I know is something temp. I tell them buy the hardware yourself from a true business preferably a business you can go into and tell them what you want and need. I was trying to help people recover from cloudmining on this forum but everyone started bashing me because I would not just come out and say what it was. But maybe the will listen know. Since we have more and more people loosing the cloudmining fight.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Mabsark on February 02, 2015, 08:12:02 PM
Cloudmining does has a very bad rep. That is why with my friends who ask me should they get into cloudmining I tell them hell no. Me personally I still bring in about $4k a month from cloudmining but this I know is something temp. I tell them buy the hardware yourself from a true business preferably a business you can go into and tell them what you want and need. I was trying to help people recover from cloudmining on this forum but everyone started bashing me because I would not just come out and say what it was. But maybe the will listen know. Since we have more and more people loosing the cloudmining fight.

If you have anything legitimate to say, then why not just say it instead of dicking around.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: julian071 on February 02, 2015, 10:27:47 PM
VERY long blogpost of the CEO of Megamine about Cloudmining. Has some interesting points on how to distinguish between legitemate and non-legitemate companies. Puppet's list is way better but some interesting points none the less!

http://www.megamine.com/cloudhashingdoomed.php (http://www.megamine.com/cloudhashingdoomed.php)

Megamine is somewhat overlooked. They used to only offer fully inclusive packages, now also pay-as-you-go (with fees).


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: acquafredda on February 03, 2015, 04:02:42 PM
Puppet needs more than thanks...


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: mayax on February 04, 2015, 03:27:46 AM
cloud mining is doomed.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Sine(X) on February 04, 2015, 09:50:21 AM
Does somebody use BW Pool?
https://www.bw.com

By organofcorti they have 20Phs+
http://organofcorti.blogspot.ru/2015/02/february-1st-2015-block-maker-statistics.html


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on February 04, 2015, 01:55:13 PM
Does somebody use BW Pool?
https://www.bw.com

By organofcorti they have 20Phs+
http://organofcorti.blogspot.ru/2015/02/february-1st-2015-block-maker-statistics.html

Are they selling cloud mining? Their English site is a bit of a mess, but it seems like "The B Plan" might be some kind of cloud mining.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Muhammed Zakir on February 04, 2015, 03:36:55 PM
Are they selling cloud mining? Their English site is a bit of a mess, but it seems like "The B Plan" might be some kind of cloud mining.

Yes, they do! And you are right, B Plan is cloud mining. There are 3 types: B1-1, B9-1 & B9-2.

Using Google translator:

Quote from: B1-1
1.47 PH/S...
Each B1 expected earnings yesterday: 0.016BTC- (1.05 × 0.5 × 24 hours yuan / kwh)/1396.000 yuan /BTC=0.007BTC, equivalent to 6.47 months left back this cycle.
One planned total output of the current currency : 1120.13910693BTC
Summary:
The total output of one program yesterday's coins : 15.54174BTC
Yesterday Net: 7.64674BTC
Yesterday electricity accounting : 22451.560 degree
Current electricity: 0.5 yuan / kWh

Quote from: B9-1
1.21 PH/S...
Each B9 expected earnings yesterday: 0.108BTC- (8.3 × 0.5 × 24 hours yuan / kwh)/1416.70 yuan /BTC×0.85=0.032BTC, equivalent to 7.26 months left back this cycle
The total output of the current currency Jiu plan : 617.379BTC
Summary:
Nine plans yesterday coins total output : 14.159BTC
Yesterday net : 5.019BTC
Yesterday electricity accounting : 25896 degrees
Current electricity: 0.5 yuan / kWh

Quote from: B9-2
2.93 PH/S...
Each B9 expected earnings yesterday: 0.107BTC- (8.3 × 0.5 × 24 hours 千瓦时 yuan / kwh)/1415.33 yuan /BTC×0.85=0.031BTC, equivalent to 8.60 months left back this cycle
The total output of the current currency Jiu plan : 812.865BTC
Summary:
Nine plans yesterday coins total output : 34.809BTC
Yesterday net : 11.938BTC
Yesterday electricity accounting: 64740 degrees
Current electricity: 0.5 yuan / kWh

Once again, this was translated using Google Translator, so the translated words may not be accurate. However, you can get an estimate details. The only thing I like about them is they display the electricity details(no matter whether it is correct or not). Anybody saw any other news about this cloud mining(atleast what they claim)?

P.S. In Hashrate Bank (https://www.bw.com/storage/), they have mentioned some sort of interest in both BTC (https://www.bw.com/storage/btc) and LTC (https://www.bw.com/storage/ltc).

Edit : They actually mine and they already found 69 blocks. Reference: https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/pool/bwpool.

   -MZ


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: icanscript on February 04, 2015, 05:43:46 PM
I think this is a great thread and should be stickied to help new users determine who are running a ponzi scheme,

Thanks Puppet.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: PeaMine on February 05, 2015, 04:01:15 AM
I agree, great service to the community Puppet


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: pajaperc on February 05, 2015, 08:34:16 AM
hey puppet!

i just wanna say thank you very much and that i truly appreciate your excellent work here.

please don't get tired of putting in great effort in this.

i believe that your thread here has been a pivotal factor regarding decision making for those who have invested in cloud mining recently.

there are a great number of people who are not active in the forum and are just constantly reading to get themselves updated (like me).

:-)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: dr1980m on February 05, 2015, 02:48:33 PM
They are a lot of bad news about Cointellect
maybe it was collaps too..


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: suman66 on February 05, 2015, 03:31:59 PM
They are a lot of bad news about Cointellect
maybe it was collaps too..

its very bad news then for all investors of this mining site


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Sine(X) on February 05, 2015, 04:31:13 PM
Are they selling cloud mining? Their English site is a bit of a mess, but it seems like "The B Plan" might be some kind of cloud mining.

Yes, they do! And you are right, B Plan is cloud mining. There are 3 types: B1-1, B9-1 & B9-2.

Using Google translator:

Quote from: B1-1
1.47 PH/S...
Each B1 expected earnings yesterday: 0.016BTC- (1.05 × 0.5 × 24 hours yuan / kwh)/1396.000 yuan /BTC=0.007BTC, equivalent to 6.47 months left back this cycle.
One planned total output of the current currency : 1120.13910693BTC
Summary:
The total output of one program yesterday's coins : 15.54174BTC
Yesterday Net: 7.64674BTC
Yesterday electricity accounting : 22451.560 degree
Current electricity: 0.5 yuan / kWh

Quote from: B9-1
1.21 PH/S...
Each B9 expected earnings yesterday: 0.108BTC- (8.3 × 0.5 × 24 hours yuan / kwh)/1416.70 yuan /BTC×0.85=0.032BTC, equivalent to 7.26 months left back this cycle
The total output of the current currency Jiu plan : 617.379BTC
Summary:
Nine plans yesterday coins total output : 14.159BTC
Yesterday net : 5.019BTC
Yesterday electricity accounting : 25896 degrees
Current electricity: 0.5 yuan / kWh

Quote from: B9-2
2.93 PH/S...
Each B9 expected earnings yesterday: 0.107BTC- (8.3 × 0.5 × 24 hours 千瓦时 yuan / kwh)/1415.33 yuan /BTC×0.85=0.031BTC, equivalent to 8.60 months left back this cycle
The total output of the current currency Jiu plan : 812.865BTC
Summary:
Nine plans yesterday coins total output : 34.809BTC
Yesterday net : 11.938BTC
Yesterday electricity accounting: 64740 degrees
Current electricity: 0.5 yuan / kWh

Once again, this was translated using Google Translator, so the translated words may not be accurate. However, you can get an estimate details. The only thing I like about them is they display the electricity details(no matter whether it is correct or not). Anybody saw any other news about this cloud mining(atleast what they claim)?

P.S. In Hashrate Bank (https://www.bw.com/storage/), they have mentioned some sort of interest in both BTC (https://www.bw.com/storage/btc) and LTC (https://www.bw.com/storage/ltc).

Edit : They actually mine and they already found 69 blocks. Reference: https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/pool/bwpool.

   -MZ

It's not clear what the price for 1Ghs? And what about 45% in a parameters of B1 mining contract?
Does somebody understand?  ;D


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Muhammed Zakir on February 06, 2015, 06:40:08 AM
It's not clear what the price for 1Ghs? And what about 45% in a parameters of B1 mining contract?
Does somebody understand?  ;D

To check that I registered and clicked 'Deposit Immediately' assuming an amount will show but they are asking my phone number to verify, without it, I can't proceed. Worst thing is that their mobile verification supports only US, UK, China, Japan and Singapore but I am not from any of these. It would be good if any else can check this, especially if you are a chinese.

Edit: After a little investigation, I think I got it:

Quote from: B1-1
Just need to cast 1 coin and you can permanently access a suit of real Bitcoin printing press B1 ,As the past benefits of Bitcoin,only several months be needed to get back the cost,and benefits should only be stopped when less than 0.5yuan/kw.Program One, users and vendors each enjoy 45% of net income after deduction of electricity. 10% of net income users through creating new mining machine, mining machine new revenue still owned by the parties.Program Two, manufacturers get electricity after deducting 45% of net income, after deduction of electricity users to get 55% of net income. It was open and transparent and fair. Introduce friends to buy you can earn high recommendation rewards

Quote from: B9-1 & B9-2
Just need to cast 9 coins and you can permanently access a suit of real Bitcoin printing press B9 ,As the past benefits of Bitcoin,only several months be needed to get back the cost,and benefits should only be stopped when less than 0.5yuan/kw,we collect 15% of benefits exclude power charge for equipment maintaining and running,it was open and transparent and fair. Introduce friends to buy you can earn high recommendation rewards(details)。

B9=(Hashrate:9000G/S & consumption:8.3/KW.H & power rate:0.5yuan/KW.H)85%permanent net income
Datas mentioned above are theoretical,real edition should be takes while calculating. And BW.COM ensure that the data is in the deviation of 5%,and we will maintain the whole machine in the 3 months after you buy it.

Please avoid words like 'Bitcoin printing press' as this is translated words, it won't be accurate.

   -MZ


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on February 08, 2015, 10:35:19 AM
Cloudmining does has a very bad rep. That is why with my friends who ask me should they get into cloudmining I tell them hell no. Me personally I still bring in about $4k a month from cloudmining but this I know is something temp. I tell them buy the hardware yourself from a true business preferably a business you can go into and tell them what you want and need. I was trying to help people recover from cloudmining on this forum but everyone started bashing me because I would not just come out and say what it was. But maybe the will listen know. Since we have more and more people loosing the cloudmining fight.
Not true. There are reliable businesses with real hardware and reasonable maintenance costs. Apart form that difficulty is going ups and downs so you can make good margins on trading and mining at the same time. Real hardware and mining at home now really sucks as the electricity costs are now high.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: picolo on February 08, 2015, 11:31:40 AM
Cloudmining does has a very bad rep. That is why with my friends who ask me should they get into cloudmining I tell them hell no. Me personally I still bring in about $4k a month from cloudmining but this I know is something temp. I tell them buy the hardware yourself from a true business preferably a business you can go into and tell them what you want and need. I was trying to help people recover from cloudmining on this forum but everyone started bashing me because I would not just come out and say what it was. But maybe the will listen know. Since we have more and more people loosing the cloudmining fight.
Not true. There are reliable businesses with real hardware and reasonable maintenance costs. Apart form that difficulty is going ups and downs so you can make good margins on trading and mining at the same time. Real hardware and mining at home now really sucks as the electricity costs are now high.

I would say that most businesses have real hardware and reasonable maintenane costs but even a real business with reasonable maintenance costs can fail or steal its clients.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on February 08, 2015, 01:13:25 PM
A real business with real real mining hardware could eventually steal customer coins (but could also be held responsible)
A (n anonymous) ponzi operation can only eventually steal customer coins (and can probably not be held responsible).


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on February 08, 2015, 01:36:50 PM
Cloudmining does has a very bad rep. That is why with my friends who ask me should they get into cloudmining I tell them hell no. Me personally I still bring in about $4k a month from cloudmining but this I know is something temp. I tell them buy the hardware yourself from a true business preferably a business you can go into and tell them what you want and need. I was trying to help people recover from cloudmining on this forum but everyone started bashing me because I would not just come out and say what it was. But maybe the will listen know. Since we have more and more people loosing the cloudmining fight.
Not true. There are reliable businesses with real hardware and reasonable maintenance costs. Apart form that difficulty is going ups and downs so you can make good margins on trading and mining at the same time. Real hardware and mining at home now really sucks as the electricity costs are now high.

I would say that most businesses have real hardware and reasonable maintenane costs but even a real business with reasonable maintenance costs can fail or steal its clients.

Any business accepting clients' money can steal them. Just look on the banks ;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Zeta0S on February 11, 2015, 01:34:22 AM
:-)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BangSamiet on February 11, 2015, 05:29:42 PM
What Anybody Know Site to cloud mining LTC or DOGE but not SCAM or PONZI??

:D :D :D


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on February 11, 2015, 05:38:04 PM
Cloudmining does has a very bad rep. That is why with my friends who ask me should they get into cloudmining I tell them hell no. Me personally I still bring in about $4k a month from cloudmining but this I know is something temp. I tell them buy the hardware yourself from a true business preferably a business you can go into and tell them what you want and need. I was trying to help people recover from cloudmining on this forum but everyone started bashing me because I would not just come out and say what it was. But maybe the will listen know. Since we have more and more people loosing the cloudmining fight.
Not true. There are reliable businesses with real hardware and reasonable maintenance costs. Apart form that difficulty is going ups and downs so you can make good margins on trading and mining at the same time. Real hardware and mining at home now really sucks as the electricity costs are now high.

I would say that most businesses have real hardware and reasonable maintenane costs but even a real business with reasonable maintenance costs can fail or steal its clients.

Any business accepting clients' money can steal them. Just look on the banks ;)

But that´s ...///drumbeat///... legal scamming. You know, like when the government has a monopoly on the use of violence. Which it decreed on itself of course while it legalized sundry scams. Scamsters often require quite violent protection that goes without saying.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: rualpema on February 12, 2015, 02:46:19 PM
Good afternoon guys.
with so many sites to sell bitcoin machines.
which reliable?
those that we pay, and we are not deceived.
I leave here some sites where they sell machines.
who know who are reliable.

http://asicminer-shop.de/Home

http://hashra.com/

http://www.gawminers.com/

http://www.spondoolies-tech.com/

http://www.antminerdistribution.com/

http://buy-antminer.com/

https://www.protact.net

https://www.achilleslabs.com/shop/

https://www.hashcoins.com/

https://www.minerslab.com/     99% fraud

https://bitmaintech.com/product.htm

https://emic.com.pl/en/      99% fraud

http://holybitcoin.com/

http://www.xbtec.io/

http://www.visionman.com/product_info_2.php?products_id=9310

http://bitmine.ch/product/coincraft-desk-gen2/

http://technobit.eu/index.php

http://www.bithashminer.com/


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ATCkit on February 12, 2015, 03:28:07 PM
check out these 2 guides:

Dogie's Comprehensive Manufacturer Trustworthiness Guide:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=456691.0

and

Bicknellski's Moderated Biased & Opinionated Miner Sellers Trustworthiness Guide
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=799423


Personally, I buy from Bitmain. I hear Spoondoolies is very good to deal with too.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: owlcatz on February 13, 2015, 02:02:42 AM
Don't buy anything from GAW miners, unless you want to support a scam operation. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=857670.0


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Muhammed Zakir on February 13, 2015, 06:06:46 AM
Don't buy anything from GAW miners, unless you want to support a scam operation. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=857670.0

They shutdown it recently. Did they start cloud mining again?

   -MZ


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Kevinrasf on February 13, 2015, 08:20:49 AM
Excellent work, most of these sites are indeed scams.

Keep it up.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Syke on February 13, 2015, 07:55:12 PM
Looks like bitcloudmine.com is the newest ponzi scam.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ATCkit on February 13, 2015, 08:14:37 PM
Don't buy anything from GAW miners, unless you want to support a scam operation. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=857670.0

They shutdown it recently. Did they start cloud mining again?

   -MZ

No they're not cloud mining. I've read that they're selling off the 5 PHS of Bitmain S4 miners they bought for this. The company line is that the maintenance fees they collected did not cover the cost for cloud mining. Others say that there's SEC concern about them mining now that they're running PayBase, Paycoin and an Exchange. GAW is trying to be the first company doing things by the book so that they can release the PayBase features when they get the legal green light. Once they set the example of meeting legal requirements in what they are doing behind the scenes now, others will be examined by the governments and have to meet the same requirements too. It will be interesting to see how Crypto 2.0 unfolds in 2015.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Muhammed Zakir on February 14, 2015, 11:53:29 AM
No they're not cloud mining. I've read that they're selling off the 5 PHS of Bitmain S4 miners they bought for this. The company line is that the maintenance fees they collected did not cover the cost for cloud mining. Others say that there's SEC concern about them mining now that they're running PayBase, Paycoin and an Exchange. GAW is trying to be the first company doing things by the book so that they can release the PayBase features when they get the legal green light. Once they set the example of meeting legal requirements in what they are doing behind the scenes now, others will be examined by the governments and have to meet the same requirements too. It will be interesting to see how Crypto 2.0 unfolds in 2015.

I also got the email. But... I think THs-they-were-selling isn't equal to THs-they-have.

   -MZ


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: btcminer021 on February 15, 2015, 03:15:28 AM
Love this damn post! Keep the list going!

Next up one on the odds for the casino sites?  :o


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Muhammed Zakir on February 15, 2015, 06:27:57 AM
Love this damn post! Keep the list going!

Next up one on the odds for the casino sites?  :o

IIRC There is one already made by DiamondCardz.

   -MZ


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: btcminer021 on February 15, 2015, 06:23:26 PM
Love this damn post! Keep the list going!

Next up one on the odds for the casino sites?  :o

IIRC There is one already made by DiamondCardz.

   -MZ

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=927971.0

Good info here, thanks!


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: idonothave on February 15, 2015, 10:31:58 PM
Good afternoon guys.
with so many sites to sell bitcoin machines.
which reliable?
those that we pay, and we are not deceived.
I leave here some sites where they sell machines.
who know who are reliable.

http://asicminer-shop.de/Home

http://hashra.com/

http://www.gawminers.com/

http://www.spondoolies-tech.com/

http://www.antminerdistribution.com/

http://buy-antminer.com/

https://www.protact.net

https://www.achilleslabs.com/shop/

https://www.hashcoins.com/

https://www.minerslab.com/     99% fraud

https://bitmaintech.com/product.htm

https://emic.com.pl/en/      99% fraud

http://holybitcoin.com/

http://www.xbtec.io/

http://www.visionman.com/product_info_2.php?products_id=9310

http://bitmine.ch/product/coincraft-desk-gen2/

http://technobit.eu/index.php

http://www.bithashminer.com/

spondoolies-tech.com makes very good miners, they are reliable, I have bought some and I am very satisfied
technobit.eu makes cheap, noisy, energetic non efficient miners, I have bought there, I was satisfied for a while
bitmaintech.com makes good, efficient, cheap miners, I have bought there, I am satisfied


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Borgminer on February 20, 2015, 06:25:54 PM
how is cloudminr.io a scam ?  I purchased ghs with them so i would really like to know . customer support always answers questions i have sent them .


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Muhammed Zakir on February 20, 2015, 06:37:22 PM
how is cloudminr.io a scam ?  I purchased ghs with them so i would really like to know . customer support always answers questions i have sent them .

Every ponzi do it. It is mostly a scam because it isn't providing legit-proofs about their mining. They didn't publish a block solved by them. Take a look at PBMining and you will know what we're telling.

   -MZ


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Borgminer on February 20, 2015, 07:02:34 PM
so in order to not be a ponzi they need to answer those questions .   so even if a person meets roi after 6 months and still earning they are a ponzi ?  or would it be considered a failed business .   I dont know how long site has been open but they have been paying out since dec 1 for me .  now whats really funny thats not on the list is Eobot. now thats a scam . advertising and selling ghs and not giving the speed .  then charging 84 percent of what you mined. 


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Muhammed Zakir on February 20, 2015, 07:11:42 PM
so in order to not be a ponzi they need to answer those questions .

Yes.

so even if a person meets roi after 6 months and still earning they are a ponzi ?

Yes, they are unless they give proof.

or would it be considered a failed business .

It is upto them to decide it but once it is obsolete, we can tell "they are failed business".

I dont know how long site has been open but they have been paying out since dec 1 for me .

Their domain was first registered on 2014-10-30.

now whats really funny thats not on the list is Eobot. now thats a scam . advertising and selling ghs and not giving the speed .  then charging 84 percent of what you mined. 

Eobot is there in 'Ticking timebombs' where you saw Cloudminr.

   -MZ


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BombaUcigasa on February 20, 2015, 07:13:36 PM
so in order to not be a ponzi they need to answer those questions .   so even if a person meets roi after 6 months and still earning they are a ponzi ? 
Yes. ROI for one account does not mean ROI for the whole company. Not everyone will be able to ROI, it's a scam if they claim so. If however they mine and everyone gets provable fresh coins based on their invested contracts, or the whole company receives coins proportional to all contracts combined, then they are not a scam.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Syke on February 20, 2015, 09:17:05 PM
so in order to not be a ponzi they need to answer those questions .   so even if a person meets roi after 6 months and still earning they are a ponzi ?

Perhaps you need to research what a "ponzi" actually is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Borgminer on February 20, 2015, 09:34:42 PM
so you think they are paying with other peoples investments ? if not then it isnt a ponzi


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: suchmoon on February 20, 2015, 09:47:16 PM
so you think they are paying with other peoples investments ? if not then it isnt a ponzi

It's not really based on what someone "thinks", is it? It's relatively easy for a cloud mining business to prove that are making new coins, i.e. mining, as well as answer most of the other questions raised in the OP. That alone is not a sufficient proof of ponzi/non-ponzi, but failing to do so is one of the biggest red flags. Considering how many scams have recently collapsed it is extremely dumb for a legitimate business to make itself look like a scam.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Syke on February 21, 2015, 12:42:43 AM
so you think they are paying with other peoples investments ? if not then it isnt a ponzi

That's right, because it's not from mining.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Borgminer on February 21, 2015, 02:09:27 AM
the reply i received



Hello!

Our hashrate is split amongst the major pools as well as smaller ones. The split does change often but for the most part, we are on GHash.IO

Best regards,
Adrian


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Syke on February 21, 2015, 02:23:44 AM
the reply i received



Hello!

Our hashrate is split amongst the major pools as well as smaller ones. The split does change often but for the most part, we are on GHash.IO

Best regards,
Adrian

Easy, show us the ghash.io mining payout address.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: arallmuus on February 21, 2015, 02:59:38 AM
so in order to not be a ponzi they need to answer those questions .   so even if a person meets roi after 6 months and still earning they are a ponzi ?  or would it be considered a failed business .   I dont know how long site has been open but they have been paying out since dec 1 for me .  now whats really funny thats not on the list is Eobot. now thats a scam . advertising and selling ghs and not giving the speed .  then charging 84 percent of what you mined. 

even if someone ROI, there are others depost that hasnt reached ROI , example of pbmining, those who deposited earlier could have got what they invested already but there are tons that hasnt reached ROI


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on February 23, 2015, 10:30:12 AM
Going over the list, I noticed ecrypto.co.in and chabatmining.com vanished (shocking!).


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: galdur on February 23, 2015, 12:05:06 PM
Bitcoin at $350

i am interested in mining as newbie and this thread is easy to understand.
mining at this point is not wise? or is it better to wait for later moment when price is higher.

What's so hard about buying bitcoin? The fact you don't have to beg someone for it back?

Watching it constantly tank - I guess.

Scams, scams everywhere. Wonder if Havelock will be back.

Maybe Bitcoin itself is one big ponzi. Would explain why it´s always in the tank and why those who were early in the game always are so eager to draw newbies into the cratering returns.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: AizenSou on February 24, 2015, 02:49:55 PM
Bitcoin at $350

i am interested in mining as newbie and this thread is easy to understand.
mining at this point is not wise? or is it better to wait for later moment when price is higher.

What's so hard about buying bitcoin? The fact you don't have to beg someone for it back?

Watching it constantly tank - I guess.

Scams, scams everywhere. Wonder if Havelock will be back.

Maybe Bitcoin itself is one big ponzi. Would explain why it´s always in the tank and why those who were early in the game always are so eager to draw newbies into the cratering returns.

Yeah it's a ponzi which draws almost 1bil $ in VC and thousands of most brilliant minds on the planet are working on it right now.
If you solely watch the price as its success indicator, you're in the wrong field, mate.
BTC price is currently mostly decided by daytraders/market maker. Someone with 10-20mil $ in capital could move the market as they wish.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: galdur on February 24, 2015, 04:50:31 PM
Bitcoin at $350

i am interested in mining as newbie and this thread is easy to understand.
mining at this point is not wise? or is it better to wait for later moment when price is higher.

What's so hard about buying bitcoin? The fact you don't have to beg someone for it back?

Watching it constantly tank - I guess.

Scams, scams everywhere. Wonder if Havelock will be back.

Maybe Bitcoin itself is one big ponzi. Would explain why it´s always in the tank and why those who were early in the game always are so eager to draw newbies into the cratering returns.

Yeah it's a ponzi which draws almost 1bil $ in VC and thousands of most brilliant minds on the planet are working on it right now.
If you solely watch the price as its success indicator, you're in the wrong field, mate.
BTC price is currently mostly decided by daytraders/market maker. Someone with 10-20mil $ in capital could move the market as they wish.


Yeah, I guess that explains the constantly anemic volume and about zero buying interest. Sounds like your usual success indicator.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: pajaperc on February 24, 2015, 08:13:58 PM
so in order to not be a ponzi they need to answer those questions .   so even if a person meets roi after 6 months and still earning they are a ponzi ? 
Yes. ROI for one account does not mean ROI for the whole company. Not everyone will be able to ROI, it's a scam if they claim so. If however they mine and everyone gets provable fresh coins based on their invested contracts, or the whole company receives coins proportional to all contracts combined, then they are not a scam.

fresh coins. hmmm... it's just now that i've realized that.

so can it be proof already? a claiming-to-be-cloud-miner-company should be able to provide coins (enough to cover for the claimed hashrate, length of operation and remaining free GHs for customers).

i remember seeing this claim from one of them stating:

FRESHLY MINED COINS

We are selling freshly mined that have not been used in any transactions at a 5% markup for mixing purposes.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: CanInvest on February 25, 2015, 03:18:17 PM
I havn't seen any analysis of miningsweden.se on the OP.
Have you researched them already?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: suchmoon on February 25, 2015, 03:46:25 PM
so can it be proof already? a claiming-to-be-cloud-miner-company should be able to provide coins (enough to cover for the claimed hashrate, length of operation and remaining free GHs for customers).

The problem is that you still need to trust the "company" to tell you how much they sold. They could provide mining proof for some hashrate but sell many times more (fractional mining).


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Syke on February 26, 2015, 12:17:34 AM
The problem is that you still need to trust the "company" to tell you how much they sold. They could provide mining proof for some hashrate but sell many times more (fractional mining).

Seems so simple, yet none of the scams prove any hashrate, which is why proving hashrate is such a good indicator to scams.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ToQcHista on February 26, 2015, 03:34:13 PM
How many times exist this company ? Bit-x .

Bit-x is reliable in mining ?


Rate bit-x 0 from 10


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: flyingplows on February 26, 2015, 06:38:17 PM
How many times exist this company ? Bit-x .

Bit-x is reliable in mining ?


Rate bit-x 0 from 10

you can find bit-x rated on the first page along with other companies:
Bit-x.com             1+4                => 2/7 = Probably legit (preliminary assessment, partnership confirmed by Bitfury)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ToQcHista on February 26, 2015, 07:00:26 PM
How many times exist this company ? Bit-x .

Bit-x is reliable in mining ?


Rate bit-x 0 from 10

you can find bit-x rated on the first page along with other companies:
Bit-x.com             1+4                => 2/7 = Probably legit (preliminary assessment, partnership confirmed by Bitfury)


Now how is ?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: flyingplows on February 26, 2015, 07:18:13 PM
How many times exist this company ? Bit-x .

Bit-x is reliable in mining ?


Rate bit-x 0 from 10

you can find bit-x rated on the first page along with other companies:
Bit-x.com             1+4                => 2/7 = Probably legit (preliminary assessment, partnership confirmed by Bitfury)


Now how is ?

if things change it gets updated on the first page if i understand you correctly... so if you want only rating - all you have to do is look first page


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: tmfp on February 26, 2015, 07:31:55 PM
Cloudmining.website is showing all the signs of death throes.

Trebling referral commission
Paying varying amounts of dust to older contracts and blaming 'bad luck'
Their shill now suggesting to pissed off punters, buy more new contracts (which pay better) to make up for risible returns on their existing "investments".


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: flyingplows on February 26, 2015, 07:47:00 PM
ye, read through their thread - pathetic company - i feel no compassion that they go bankrupt  ;D ;D ;D  :D ...or wait..  ??? ??? ??? it looks they won by failing.. ;D


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ToQcHista on February 27, 2015, 11:42:58 AM
ye, read through their thread - pathetic company - i feel no compassion that they go bankrupt  ;D ;D ;D  :D ...or wait..  ??? ??? ??? it looks they won by failing.. ;D


Which company will bankrupt   ?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on February 27, 2015, 01:04:15 PM
ye, read through their thread - pathetic company - i feel no compassion that they go bankrupt  ;D ;D ;D  :D ...or wait..  ??? ??? ??? it looks they won by failing.. ;D


Which company will bankrupt   ?

That moron probably has Retard Incorporated in mind.

But, I forgot...where exactly in China is this AmHash (just about the only non-scam cloud mining operation on the planet) thing supposed to be located ? Was it in Ding Dong or Gling Glong ? There are pictures of miners and since those pictures prove that the co is mining bitcoins it obviously follows that the proof includes info on where exactly those pictures were taken. I´m sure it´s here somewhere.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on February 27, 2015, 01:22:21 PM
Not disclosing the exact location of the mining facility is about the only omission of information I can think of that is completely understandable.  I dont think bitfury disclosed that much either.

If you want to visit the company hq's, go here:
http://www.rockminer.com/contact.php


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ToQcHista on February 27, 2015, 01:28:29 PM
ye, read through their thread - pathetic company - i feel no compassion that they go bankrupt  ;D ;D ;D  :D ...or wait..  ??? ??? ??? it looks they won by failing.. ;D


Which company will bankrupt   ?

That moron probably has Retard Incorporated in mind.

But, I forgot...where exactly in China is this AmHash (just about the only non-scam cloud mining operation on the planet) thing supposed to be located ? Was it in Ding Dong or Gling Glong ? There are pictures of miners and since those pictures prove that the co is mining bitcoins it obviously follows that the proof includes info on where exactly those pictures were taken. I´m sure it´s here somewhere.


What are you talking about?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on February 27, 2015, 01:35:23 PM
I went to that website but that doesn´t really give me any guarantees that anything exists apart from the website and whoever put it up. Of course China is the absolutely last place you´d expect any scams to exist  since it´s such a paragon of law and order and totally devoid of corruption so we´re taking way out there outside chances here. But, like the man said, Trust but verify.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on February 27, 2015, 01:37:18 PM
ye, read through their thread - pathetic company - i feel no compassion that they go bankrupt  ;D ;D ;D  :D ...or wait..  ??? ??? ??? it looks they won by failing.. ;D


Which company will bankrupt   ?

That moron probably has Retard Incorporated in mind.

But, I forgot...where exactly in China is this AmHash (just about the only non-scam cloud mining operation on the planet) thing supposed to be located ? Was it in Ding Dong or Gling Glong ? There are pictures of miners and since those pictures prove that the co is mining bitcoins it obviously follows that the proof includes info on where exactly those pictures were taken. I´m sure it´s here somewhere.


What are you talking about?

Learn to read. Bye forever.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on February 27, 2015, 01:46:37 PM
Knowing something is one thing, thinking you know something quite another. But to some people the distinction between the two is never any concern at all. Well, unless it doesn´t  fit their agenda.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on February 27, 2015, 04:00:30 PM
I went to that website but that doesn´t really give me any guarantees that anything exists apart from the website and whoever put it up. Of course China is the absolutely last place you´d expect any scams to exist  since it´s such a paragon of law and order and totally devoid of corruption so we´re taking way out there outside chances here. But, like the man said, Trust but verify.

They provided a clear address, so it can be verified, and probably has been verified by several Rockminer customers or resellers, Shenzhen isnt exactly the South Pole. Nothing is 100% waterproof, but I cant raise the bar much higher than that when it comes to providing id and address information, Im not personally going to visit HQ's of all mining companies across the world unless you pay my airfares. If the info is not enough for you, feel free to send them a registered letter or hop on a plane and let us all know what you find. While you're at it, do the same for the ones that score 5+ points and see if there is a difference.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on February 27, 2015, 04:17:31 PM
Well, since I haven´t visited their mining farm or gone over their books I don´t know jack about this operation. Some anon on the internet can tell me that this or that is verified, whether i take that seriously or not, that´s up to me - I guess.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on February 27, 2015, 04:27:05 PM
Try sending a registered letter to you beloved bitcoincloudservices, and see what happens.
Ill give you a hint: virtual presence providers accept regular mail, but not registered mail. It will bounce.

But that, and the very likely photoshopped mine, the worst fake video in bitcoin history, the provable link of the operators with previous bitcoin scams and most importantly, the absence of blockchain evidence, for some reason you didnt think that was cause for concern.

I wouldnt be happy if I had AMhash shares right now, but Id give it at least 50x higher odds they will respect their contracts in the long run, than that bcs will.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on February 27, 2015, 04:34:05 PM
Sullen are we now ?  ;D


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on February 27, 2015, 04:37:50 PM
I think it´s a reasonable demand that these self-appointed judges of others and saviors of people from themselves disclose their identities. I´m sure their spotless records in this world will enhance their credibility and dissolve any speculations about their real agenda.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on February 27, 2015, 04:43:23 PM
Im not asking anyone to trust me or my judgement. In fact I implore everyone to do their own due diligence,  I just raise awareness by listing criteria and applying them best I can.  If you think there is a problem with either the criteria, or my application of them, by all means, lets hear it.  But providing my identity would change absolutely nothing. Not that Im very anonymous, plenty of people know who I am.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: tmfp on February 27, 2015, 04:45:05 PM
I think it´s a reasonable demand that these self-appointed judges of others and saviors of people from themselves disclose their identities. I´m sure their spotless records in this world will enhance their credibility and dissolve any speculations about their real agenda.

Go and pour yourself a(nother) drink Galdur, your leaden sarcasm stopped being amusing a while back.
How is it Puppet's (or anyone else's) problem that your crap "cloud mining" investments tank, one after another?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on February 27, 2015, 04:46:22 PM
Im not asking anyone to trust me or my judgement. In fact I implore everyone to do their own due diligence,  I just raise awareness by listing criteria and applying them best I can.  If you think there is a problem with either the criteria, or my application of them, by all means, lets hear it.  But providing my identity would change absolutely nothing. Not that Im very anonymous, plenty of people know who I am.


I guess you don´t ask yourself and the gang around you to conduct systematic campaigns of slander and harassment either.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on February 27, 2015, 04:50:42 PM
I think it´s a reasonable demand that these self-appointed judges of others and saviors of people from themselves disclose their identities. I´m sure their spotless records in this world will enhance their credibility and dissolve any speculations about their real agenda.

Go and pour yourself a(nother) drink Galdur, your leaden sarcasm stopped being amusing a while back.
How is it Puppet's (or anyone else's) problem that your crap "cloud mining" investments tank, one after another?

Maybe some of them go belly up because extortionists that don´t get paid scare business away from them. It´s probably not something that a peabrain like yourself would ever consider within the realm of possibility.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on February 27, 2015, 06:18:44 PM
It´s  not something that anyone with a peabrain like yourself would ever consider within the realm of possibility.

FTFY


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jimmothy on February 27, 2015, 08:49:19 PM
I think it´s a reasonable demand that these self-appointed judges of others and saviors of people from themselves disclose their identities. I´m sure their spotless records in this world will enhance their credibility and dissolve any speculations about their real agenda.

Go and pour yourself a(nother) drink Galdur, your leaden sarcasm stopped being amusing a while back.
How is it Puppet's (or anyone else's) problem that your crap "cloud mining" investments tank, one after another?

Maybe some of them go belly up because extortionists that don´t get paid scare business away from them. It´s probably not something that a peabrain like yourself would ever consider within the realm of possibility.

Galdur I thought you would have wisen up by now, but it looks like you're just as naive/gullible when you showed up here touting how great your investments in various ponzis are.

Legit cloudmining operations don't collapse when they stop having a steady flow of new investors, only ponzis do.

Seems you're just afraid that one of the many ponzis you've invested in is going to collapse because of people pointing out red flags.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: suchmoon on February 27, 2015, 08:59:26 PM
I think it´s a reasonable demand that these self-appointed judges of others and saviors of people from themselves disclose their identities. I´m sure their spotless records in this world will enhance their credibility and dissolve any speculations about their real agenda.

How exactly would disclosing those identities help here? Are you confused about who's taking your money and whose credibility you want to be concerned with?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on February 27, 2015, 09:14:42 PM
I think it´s a reasonable demand that these self-appointed judges of others and saviors of people from themselves disclose their identities. I´m sure their spotless records in this world will enhance their credibility and dissolve any speculations about their real agenda.

How exactly would disclosing those identities help here? Are you confused about who's taking your money and whose credibility you want to be concerned with?


Get reading lessons you fucking moron.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jimmothy on February 27, 2015, 09:20:12 PM
I think it´s a reasonable demand that these self-appointed judges of others and saviors of people from themselves disclose their identities. I´m sure their spotless records in this world will enhance their credibility and dissolve any speculations about their real agenda.

How exactly would disclosing those identities help here? Are you confused about who's taking your money and whose credibility you want to be concerned with?

He's deluded to the point that he thinks the people pointing out red flags are the reason his investments in various ponzi's aren't turning out so well.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on February 27, 2015, 09:28:59 PM
Not reading this mental case. This whole blackmailing gang has the exact same bitter and condescending tone. Most likely they all got fucked over by the same guy. Or they are the same lowlife.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jimmothy on February 27, 2015, 09:48:03 PM
Not reading this mental case. This whole blackmailing gang has the exact same bitter and condescending tone. Most likely they all got fucked over by the same guy. Or they are the same lowlife.

Why are you so angry with us? You can't honestly believe we are a team of expert blackmailers that are capable of shutting down any legit business we choose.

You invested in a blatant scam, we pointed out why it's likely a scam, it turned out to be a scam, therefore it's our fault? Because you didn't listen?

Please just grow up, educate yourself, and stop blaming others for your poor investment decisions.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: inBitweTrust on February 27, 2015, 09:57:51 PM
Why are you so angry with us? You can't honestly believe we are a team of expert blackmailers that are capable of shutting down any legit business we choose.

You invested in a blatant scam, we pointed out why it's likely a scam, it turned out to be a scam, therefore it's our fault? Because you didn't listen?

Please just grow up, educate yourself, and stop blaming others for your poor investment decisions.

He is just bitter because he was been exposed and now is finding it harder to promote scams for ponzi affiliate money.

He is better off closing his account, starting over, and raising his ethical standards than continuing to cry about people with common sense pointing out red flags to warn potential victims.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: tmfp on February 27, 2015, 10:03:57 PM
mental case.  lowlife.
fucking moron.
moron
Learn to read
peabrain
mental cases
fruitcakes
obsessive-compulsive cases.

LOL but......these people weren't the ones who bought fake, shit, "cloud mining" contracts. You were.

The strain of it all appears to be getting to you, you're retreating into dust induced paranoia. That other ponzi guy, Spanish Harlem/German Panzer whatever, dusted off your favorite quote for you, you know, the fantasy one without a shred of evidence to back it up.
Like the sort of business you invest in.

One thing is filing a complaint, another is accusing a company of being a ponzi, and randomly trashing its reputation when no harm was done; and even worse - non customers randomly trashing a business around and ruining its reputation - thats sabotage.

Keep doing what you are doing and you will end up with a self fulfilling prophecy, roaming around forums and posting false acusations on a business will destroy its reputation and scare away customers, and this will ultimatelly kill the business, it dies and yes if it died it must be a scam... sheesh

I´m totally done reading these people or communicating with them in any way whatsoever. And that´s forever.

Bye.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on February 27, 2015, 10:07:32 PM
Why are you so angry with us? You can't honestly believe we are a team of expert blackmailers that are capable of shutting down any legit business we choose.

You invested in a blatant scam, we pointed out why it's likely a scam, it turned out to be a scam, therefore it's our fault? Because you didn't listen?

Please just grow up, educate yourself, and stop blaming others for your poor investment decisions.

He is just bitter because he was been exposed and now is finding it harder to promote scams for ponzi affiliate money.

He is better off closing his account, starting over, and raising his ethical standards than continuing to cry about people with common sense pointing out red flags to warn potential victims.

Haven´t been promoting any ponzi affiliate or whatever you want to call it and am not aware that I´ve been exposed in any way. You seem totally out of it with your fabrications. But of course the mentality is in line with those whose asses you kiss here that goes without saying.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on February 27, 2015, 10:09:59 PM
I was aware of the existence of this tmph whatever guy for all of five seconds and it´s already out my other ear. Bye forever.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Syke on February 28, 2015, 04:57:45 AM
I think it´s a reasonable demand that these self-appointed judges of others and saviors of people from themselves disclose their identities. I´m sure their spotless records in this world will enhance their credibility and dissolve any speculations about their real agenda.

The people asking for money should be the ones disclosing their identities.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on February 28, 2015, 09:10:44 AM
I think it´s a reasonable demand that these self-appointed judges of others and saviors of people from themselves disclose their identities. I´m sure their spotless records in this world will enhance their credibility and dissolve any speculations about their real agenda.

The people asking for money should be the ones disclosing their identities.

Yeah, that´s exactly what extortionists and other criminal garbage would just love them to do. And so they´re constantly whining about just that.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: skuser on February 28, 2015, 02:00:43 PM
Time to reclassify amhash. I thought they have mining operation directly under their own control:

The Announcement of AMHash Dividends Suspending

Dear customers,

We are very sorry to inform you that we have to continue to delay AMHash’s dividends,as we haven't received the payment from ASICMINER since 8th Feb,we are trying to communication with ASICMINER for this issue :

1. Dividends will be restarted in 24 hours as soon as ASICMINER sending us BTCs.

2. Dividends will be paid from 8th Feb and all missing dividends will be included if we get the payment.

3. Trading of AMHash1 on HAVELOCK will also be suspended until the dividends restart.

4. Any third-party platform collapse will be handled in the same way as hashie.co, AMHash will complete the hashrates transferring and subsequent dividends.

We are still in active communication with ASICMINER, please be patient,and we will update in time if we get any new information.

AMHash Team



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Hubus on February 28, 2015, 02:05:57 PM
He's deluded to the point that he thinks the people pointing out red flags are the reason his investments in various ponzi's aren't turning out so well.

I think in this case he might be right, because talking about the truth can really bring a ponzi down. Liars and the truth are like fire and water. But he's wrong when he thinks that a legitimate "hard mining" business can be brought down by just some talk.

I think it´s a reasonable demand that these self-appointed judges of others and saviors of people from themselves disclose their identities. I´m sure their spotless records in this world will enhance their credibility and dissolve any speculations about their real agenda.

And because we really might damage the liar's businesses, and they might have a lot of (borrowed) money (which means power) and they might not have the best character, I would not recommend to diclose real identities here. You never know...

Yeah, that´s exactly what extortionists and other criminal garbage would just love them to do. And so they´re constantly whining about just that.

We have a "slightly" 180 degrees different view of who might be the criminal here.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BombaUcigasa on February 28, 2015, 02:16:01 PM
He's deluded to the point that he thinks the people pointing out red flags are the reason his investments in various ponzi's aren't turning out so well.

I think in this case he might be right, because talking about the truth can really bring a ponzi down. Liars and the truth are like fire and water. But he's wrong when he thinks that a legitimate "hard mining" business can be brought down by just some talk.
That's some next level quantum honesty you got there. It's not known how honest it is, until you observe it forcefully...


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: eneloop on February 28, 2015, 02:45:12 PM
GenerateBTC.com is already gone.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on February 28, 2015, 04:25:32 PM
Wow, that´s really great news about the only non-scam cloud mining operation in the universe

according to some anons on the internet.





Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: acquafredda on February 28, 2015, 10:30:36 PM
This thread saved some BTC for me.
 :)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Borgminer on March 01, 2015, 10:54:53 AM
this is how you prove a cloud mining site is a ponzi or not . Wait for the first payment. If received then check the blockchain.  no need to get answers from something you can find out for yourself .  With the definition of what a ponzi is moving funds around from one investor to pay another investor .   a company can also fail but it not being able to be cost effective anymore so they shut it down.   that doesnt make it a ponzi it just went of of business.  can what this guy said be true




Isn't it easy to verify though? All transactions are public. I was able to verify the integrity of one company simply by looking at the payout address. I was able to see the daily payouts, how much was paid where, and how the money arrived. If they are genuinely mining new coins that would show in the Blockchain. If, however, they are a "Ponzi Scheme" the Blockchain would show that they are only paying out based on what was paid to them. For this reason I put more trust in a cloud company who pays out from an address exclusively used to have the mined Bitcoins deposited into whereas the one-time addresses used for being paid for new contracts should go to a different final address. From there I should be able to track where the money goes, if it is cashed out or if it is used to buy new hardware. That's the real advantage of Bitcoin: The ability to see at a glance.

So anyway, if someone suspects that a given company is scamming people, how about analyzing the block chain and providing evidence? It wouldn't surprise me that someone somewhere is doing this, but from what I can tell it is much more profitable in the long run to operate an honest mining company.



your thought ?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Hubus on March 01, 2015, 11:56:46 AM
Isn't it easy to verify though? All transactions are public.

If they are genuinely mining new coins that would show in the Blockchain. If, however, they are a "Ponzi Scheme" the Blockchain would show that they are only paying out based on what was paid to them.

That's the real advantage of Bitcoin: The ability to see at a glance.

So anyway, if someone suspects that a given company is scamming people, how about analyzing the block chain and providing evidence?

your thought ?

Of course the blockchain shouldn't lie. But I don't know if blockchain analysis is as easy as you say - I'm a newbie and I looked at some transactions for fun - and at least for me it is not so easy to "see at a glance"...

Additionally, people who prefer to stay anonymous might obscure/"wash" their bitcoin transactions, which makes it even more difficult.

I would like to get an explanation of "bitcoin analysis for newbies" - but I think it's not so easy, often I see a lot of addresses and no clear connection between them...


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 01, 2015, 02:27:57 PM
your thought ?

Ponzi's almost always pay out through coinmixers, so you cant in any meaningful way trace the transactions back to their origins. Of course thats a huge red flag by itself, but to be fair,  there are valid reasons why a company would not pay directly from mined coins, like when paying dividends through intermediaries, if they use external pools etc.

Anyway, there is a reason the number one criteria is a public mining address, but there are also reasons for the other criteria.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: baristor on March 01, 2015, 03:25:10 PM
no matter ponzi or not i get paid !


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BombaUcigasa on March 01, 2015, 04:55:09 PM
no matter ponzi or not i get paid !
Until you don't.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Borgminer on March 01, 2015, 10:11:30 PM
well you guys moaned about it being a ponzi .  which it is not a ponzi if its mining and how to prove it is mining i just pointed it out . by checking the blockchain . 


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Syke on March 01, 2015, 10:47:50 PM
well you guys moaned about it being a ponzi .  which it is not a ponzi if its mining and how to prove it is mining i just pointed it out . by checking the blockchain . 

Are you referring to a particular ponzi cloud mining? I have yet to see these ponzis show any mining proof in the blockchain.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: maku on March 02, 2015, 12:14:04 AM
It is funny how as I remember everyone cried about GAW miners back in the day and a accused them of being the worst ponzi of them all. And now when I returned back to check things out GAW are more legit than some of the 'best cloud mining' companies which are proved to be a ponzi all the way.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Borgminer on March 02, 2015, 12:18:29 AM
well you guys moaned about it being a ponzi .  which it is not a ponzi if its mining and how to prove it is mining i just pointed it out . by checking the blockchain . 

Are you referring to a particular ponzi cloud mining? I have yet to see these ponzis show any mining proof in the blockchain.


find out for yourself . by checking the blockchain.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jimmothy on March 02, 2015, 01:04:28 AM
It is funny how as I remember everyone cried about GAW miners back in the day and a accused them of being the worst ponzi of them all.

 And now when I returned back to check things out GAW are more legit than some of the 'best cloud mining' companies which are proved to be a ponzi all the way.

Back when you made 4 accounts to promote GAW and abuse their sig campaign?

If you are ranking ponzi's (though I think they are all bad), I would have to agree that GAW is one of the worst ponzi's.

Ponzis like LTCGear or Cryptodouble paid out huge returns over short periods of time compared to GAW which strung along people for months with shitty returns.

So unless getting teased for 5 months and ending up with only 5% of what you invested is your kind of thing, I'd have to say that accusation was dead accurate.



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BombaUcigasa on March 02, 2015, 01:05:17 AM
GAW are more legit than some of the 'best cloud mining' companies which are proved to be a ponzi all the way.
http://i.imgur.com/DtISdMJ.png


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: suchmoon on March 02, 2015, 01:19:42 AM
It is funny how as I remember everyone cried about GAW miners back in the day and a accused them of being the worst ponzi of them all. And now when I returned back to check things out GAW are more legit than some of the 'best cloud mining' companies which are proved to be a ponzi all the way.

Have you missed the news that GAW "cloud" mining ended abruptly even though it was still technically profitable? How "legit" is that?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: AizenSou on March 02, 2015, 09:19:00 AM
It is funny how as I remember everyone cried about GAW miners back in the day and a accused them of being the worst ponzi of them all.

 And now when I returned back to check things out GAW are more legit than some of the 'best cloud mining' companies which are proved to be a ponzi all the way.

Back when you made 4 accounts to promote GAW and abuse their sig campaign?

If you are ranking ponzi's (though I think they are all bad), I would have to agree that GAW is one of the worst ponzi's.

Ponzis like LTCGear or Cryptodouble paid out huge returns over short periods of time compared to GAW which strung along people for months with shitty returns.

So unless getting teased for 5 months and ending up with only 5% of what you invested is your kind of thing, I'd have to say that accusation was dead accurate.



+1
Btw anyone knows the news about AMhash ? It's probably dead soon.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: skuser on March 02, 2015, 10:18:03 AM
amhash seems to be working. havelock is down.

I didn't notice any new update on amhash since they announced they won't be paying dividends because asicminer stopped paying them, so maybe it is working but not paying.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: skuser on March 02, 2015, 03:42:42 PM
This amhash failure is getting better and better. So they paid dividends from their own pocket for more than a month...

update

The 3.546PH AMHash's hashrates have disappeared since 25th Dec 2014. We found this problem two days later,we asked friedcat,he said it was mining farm's maintenance issues,hashrates would come back soon.But one week later,hashrates didn't come back yet.When we asked FC again, we were told that all mining devices were robbed by the partner of the mining farm.And all hashrates were out of control.
After then, FC told us that hashrates from new mining farms will be deployed, but we didn't know the amount at that time.Right now, we still don't receive any update from those new hashrates.

AMHash Team



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on March 02, 2015, 03:50:28 PM
This amhash failure is getting better and better. So they paid dividends from their own pocket for more than a month...

update

The 3.546PH AMHash's hashrates have disappeared since 25th Dec 2014. We found this problem two days later,we asked friedcat,he said it was mining farm's maintenance issues,hashrates would come back soon.But one week later,hashrates didn't come back yet.When we asked FC again, we were told that all mining devices were robbed by the partner of the mining farm.And all hashrates were out of control.
After then, FC told us that hashrates from new mining farms will be deployed, but we didn't know the amount at that time.Right now, we still don't receive any update from those new hashrates.

AMHash Team
Once again, another reason to avoid cloud mining. Just because the evidence pointed to AMHash not being a ponzi, that does not mean that they cannot fail or cheat their customers whichever this case might be. Much like storing your coins on an exchange or a web wallet, you don't own anything. You just own a chit and have to hope that when it's time to collect the entity holding your bitcoin/hashpower/whaterever is still around.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: suchmoon on March 02, 2015, 03:53:35 PM
This amhash failure is getting better and better. So they paid dividends from their own pocket for more than a month...

update

The 3.546PH AMHash's hashrates have disappeared since 25th Dec 2014. We found this problem two days later,we asked friedcat,he said it was mining farm's maintenance issues,hashrates would come back soon.But one week later,hashrates didn't come back yet.When we asked FC again, we were told that all mining devices were robbed by the partner of the mining farm.And all hashrates were out of control.
After then, FC told us that hashrates from new mining farms will be deployed, but we didn't know the amount at that time.Right now, we still don't receive any update from those new hashrates.

AMHash Team



Now this is what I would call a truly fucked up situation  ::)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 02, 2015, 04:28:09 PM
Anyone remember where amhash posted their mining addresses? Id like to see those stats


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: suchmoon on March 02, 2015, 04:39:25 PM
Anyone remember where amhash posted their mining addresses? Id like to see those stats

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=833704.msg9390799#msg9390799


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on March 02, 2015, 04:40:16 PM
Also, http://www.walletexplorer.com/wallet/ASICMiner


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on March 02, 2015, 04:44:20 PM
Any updates today about the universe´s only non-scam cloud mining operator ?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 02, 2015, 04:53:03 PM
1ERszMSERwHNR9Xty73KZXpsg1jjBXWcHh received 2 large payments well after the "farm was stolen", though its origin is unclear.
1K7AuMJwVfZg3UVjinnjT2HzG4pJvACat6 is still receiving relatively small amounts from ghash.

Either way, its totally unacceptable that AM and AMhash didnt make this public when it happened, if indeed it even happened.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on March 02, 2015, 05:06:44 PM
1ERszMSERwHNR9Xty73KZXpsg1jjBXWcHh received 2 large payments well after the "farm was stolen", though its origin is unclear.
1K7AuMJwVfZg3UVjinnjT2HzG4pJvACat6 is still receiving relatively small amounts from ghash.

Either way, its totally unacceptable that AM and AMhash didnt make this public when it happened, if indeed it even happened.
It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. The hashrate counters on https://www.amhash.com/ from GHash also appear frozen around Christmas, so that might have been a tipoff that something was going on. Not that I expect any details to emerge, but it would be interesting to really know what happened between Rockminer and Asicminer and who's screwing who there.

Any updates today about the universe´s only non-scam cloud mining operator ?
Why would you think a company not being a ponzi like the crap you promote makes them not a scam?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on March 02, 2015, 05:07:35 PM
1ERszMSERwHNR9Xty73KZXpsg1jjBXWcHh received 2 large payments well after the "farm was stolen", though its origin is unclear.
1K7AuMJwVfZg3UVjinnjT2HzG4pJvACat6 is still receiving relatively small amounts from ghash.

Either way, its totally unacceptable that AM and AMhash didnt make this public when it happened, if indeed it even happened.
It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. The hashrate counters on https://www.amhash.com/ from GHash also appear frozen around Christmas, so that might have been a tipoff that something was going on. Not that I expect any details to emerge, but it would be interesting to really know what happened between Rockminer and Asicminer and who's screwing who there.

Any updates today about the universe´s only non-scam cloud mining operator ?
Why would you think a company not being a ponzi like the crap you promote makes them not a scam?

What crap am I supposed to be promoting ? Get out of the slandering gear for a few seconds.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: elasticband on March 02, 2015, 05:26:22 PM
following


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on March 02, 2015, 05:31:15 PM
I posted my returns with what this extortionist garbage has been slandering for months. Of course this self-righteous junk and self-appointed judges of all and sundry would consider that promotion.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on March 02, 2015, 05:39:10 PM
1ERszMSERwHNR9Xty73KZXpsg1jjBXWcHh received 2 large payments well after the "farm was stolen", though its origin is unclear.
1K7AuMJwVfZg3UVjinnjT2HzG4pJvACat6 is still receiving relatively small amounts from ghash.

Either way, its totally unacceptable that AM and AMhash didnt make this public when it happened, if indeed it even happened.
It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. The hashrate counters on https://www.amhash.com/ from GHash also appear frozen around Christmas, so that might have been a tipoff that something was going on. Not that I expect any details to emerge, but it would be interesting to really know what happened between Rockminer and Asicminer and who's screwing who there.

Any updates today about the universe´s only non-scam cloud mining operator ?
Why would you think a company not being a ponzi like the crap you promote makes them not a scam?

What crap am I supposed to be promoting ? Get out of the slandering gear for a few seconds.

Quote
Well, jimmo sounds really desperate so I guess he´s the perfect counter-indicator here.

Deal looks very good, I´m buying.

They are showing a payout for that 10 GHS

Latest Payout  0.00013975 BTC
Latest Payout Date  2014-11-04 00:00:01

www.cloudmining.website/?r=2143

Yep.

Referral Link  www.cloudmining.website/?r=2143

Mining Information

Latest Payout  0.00013975 BTC
Latest Payout Date  2014-11-04 00:00:01
Total Referral Earning  0 BTC
Pending Payment  0.00013975 BTC
Paid  0 BTC

I'm sure there's more shit services you were pumping, though I don't feel like looking for them. I know there was many messages of support for Cloudminer.IO, and I recall you participating in Cryptodouble. Not exactly a stellar record of picking winners, regardless of whether you individually broke even.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on March 02, 2015, 05:40:38 PM
I haven´t had that ref for three months as you well know. And what if I did promote something back then. Do I need to ask the permission of some anons around here. Please lay off this pointless slandering. I realize that it´s a huge disappointment to you that what I promoted months ago hasn´t gone belly up yet in spite of all the slandering but you´ll just have to live with it.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on March 02, 2015, 05:44:24 PM
Do I have to ask some extortionist garbage´s permission before I speak well of something that pays me good returns ? I think you sacks of shit should have your heads examined.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on March 02, 2015, 05:46:16 PM
I haven´t had that ref for three months as you well know. Please lay off this pointless slandering.
I'm sorry, what? Aren't you the one going around calling those people who pointed out that the pbmining's of the world are ponzis "garbage" and "extortionists"? I would suggest you take a look in the mirror before talking about pointless slander.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: galdur on March 02, 2015, 05:48:41 PM
I haven´t had that ref for three months as you well know. Please lay off this pointless slandering.
I'm sorry, what? Aren't you the one going around calling those people who pointed out that the pbmining's of the world are ponzis "garbage" and "extortionists"? I would suggest you take a look in the mirror before talking about pointless slander.

What´s that supposed to mean ? Are you insinuating that this PB Mining runs everything else that you decide  beforehand is a scam ?

Maybe you´re the same guy as this puppet thing and some of his other clones. It´s the exact same condescending tone.

Anyway, fuck you and the rest of the extortionist garbage. Bye forever.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ujka on March 02, 2015, 05:52:24 PM
1ERszMSERwHNR9Xty73KZXpsg1jjBXWcHh received 2 large payments well after the "farm was stolen", though its origin is unclear.

From AM - 1H7FpBV8huVmPvt5eRzszAkgnERH2FaWvq is the addess last divs were sent from.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Mabsark on March 02, 2015, 06:14:02 PM
Ponzi alert for AMHash!

What ??? Now FriedCat has turned out to be a Ponzi operator ?

No, that ignores the facts. Firstly, according to AMHash, FC said he was going to deploy more hashing power to cover the loss (isn't it funny the way people simply ignore that part). Given that AM had 60 Ph/s of BE200 last May, sales had been almost non-existent and AMHash 3 took in around 1 million USD, they should have been able to replace 5 Ph/s.

After then, FC told us that hashrates from new mining farms will be deployed, but we didn't know the amount at that time.Right now, we still don't receive any update from those new hashrates.

Secondly, AMHash haven't sold any contracts whatsoever since the 24th December 2014.

1.The AMHash3 shares has been sold out.

Thirdly, at least one address is still receiving payouts from Ghash.io so they're still receiving mining income.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: flyingplows on March 02, 2015, 06:51:16 PM
Do I have to ask some extortionist garbage´s permission before I speak well of something that pays me good returns ? I think you sacks of shit should have your heads examined.

of course you have to get puppet's permission if you want to speak well of something that pays you good returns! if you dont understand such an obvious thing you should go educate yourself. however if puppet is offline, then you can only speak nice things about companies that are well rated on the first page of this thread...  it should be clear to you by now, have you fallen out of the moon?  ::)  :o
..these kids these days are so ignorant and disrespectful... :-[  >:(


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: kingcolex on March 03, 2015, 10:10:02 PM
So pretty much who other than Hashnest is the one to not fear mining with?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Blazed on March 03, 2015, 10:14:46 PM
So pretty much who other than Hashnest is the one to not fear mining with?

Seems to the only legit ones are Bit-X, Hashnest, and Genesis. AMHash has admitted to running a ponzi lol.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 03, 2015, 10:35:47 PM
I defined "legit" as having provided reasonable evidence that they are mining with physical hardware and the goal was not to defraud customers.  In that sense, I still think Amhash was legit and unlike the actual collapsed ponzi's, there is even still a fair chance they will make their customers whole if/when FC resurfaces.

If you want to know which cloud mining operation is virtually risk free, the answer is -and always has been- :  none, even if you accept the difficulty/price risk.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Mabsark on March 04, 2015, 12:18:01 AM
AMHash has admitted to running a ponzi lol.

No they haven't. AMHash quite clearly denied running a ponzi:

1. The mining farm happened in Dec/25/2014 was not a PONZI like you said, AM did have hashrates before that day, and they were also hurt by the farm partner.When problem happened, AM were talking and finding some way to solve it and continue to pay divs daily, how can you say that PONZI? Any problem been solved need time, hope you understand.

A ponzi is where you pay old customers with the income from new customers. Like I said earlier, AMHash haven't had any new customers since the 24th of December 2014 and the hash rate disappeared on the 25th of December 2014. How could it possibly be a ponzi?

FC might have ran off with the money, he might have been kidnapped, he might be dead for all we know but one thing is certain - AMHash hasn't been running a ponzi.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: TheIZS on March 04, 2015, 12:21:15 AM
While in this case I agree with you Puppet. There is a bunch of baseless panic that has bounced around an echo chamber of the same three jerks they are starting to beleive each other. Worst case AMhash got ripped off for a few PH. They have made millions and 90% of their hardware is still mining you idiots. 48 hours to process your payout from the 1st is tomorrow. Don't ask me to check my math I lived in Asia it is just how it works over there.

Still Puppet you need to man up to the misses it's still a good record by any standard, but now that it is clear Garbozo is on drugs at least admit you missed the call on GAW.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: elasticband on March 04, 2015, 12:40:42 AM
FC is okay


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: crazyearner on March 04, 2015, 01:28:41 AM
I have been in most of them they do work for very little and payments are shocking on fees. I use to be very active on Eobot however since their rates changed and ratio to mining and contracts changed form permanent to 5 years and also  the rate of what their fee is like 70 to 80% and making only 30% at good times will never brake even on their site any more. When BTC prices are up it was working fine and a good site to use but when prices are as low as they currently are, then it is almost imposable to make anything good.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: suchmoon on March 04, 2015, 02:08:40 PM
AMHash hasn't been running a ponzi.

So where did the payments in January/February come from? Certainly not from mining?

Of course they ran a ponzi for a couple of months, stop splitting hair. They paid customers' money back to them. It's irrelevant that they weren't signing up any new ones IN THAT PERIOD, if anything that just hastened the collapse. Don't forget that mining ponzis are not your classical investment ponzis - you don't have to pay back 120% or whatever, you can slowly bleed the suckers by paying back 90% of the initial investment and everyone will be happy - hey, it's mining, sometimes you don't get 100%+ ROI.

Now whether you want to hope they will rise from the dead and pay everyone back - that's another story. I hope for that too, I have a couple of BTC invested there unfortunately. I got paid back for the Prisma fiasco, which also looked quite hopeless but still far from this clusterfuck.



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: kingcolex on March 04, 2015, 02:09:21 PM
FC is okay
Where did you get this info from?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: gollumist on March 04, 2015, 03:06:00 PM
Hey Puppet,
Greetings for nice job you have done with this discusion!
Can you please evaluate this "new" cloudmining - hashocean.com ?
For me is clear scam and rumors say - there are the same guys which did hasprofit before.
Regards
G


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on March 04, 2015, 04:46:42 PM
AMHash hasn't been running a ponzi.

So where did the payments in January/February come from? Certainly not from mining?

Of course they ran a ponzi for a couple of months, stop splitting hair. They paid customers' money back to them. It's irrelevant that they weren't signing up any new ones IN THAT PERIOD, if anything that just hastened the collapse. Don't forget that mining ponzis are not your classical investment ponzis - you don't have to pay back 120% or whatever, you can slowly bleed the suckers by paying back 90% of the initial investment and everyone will be happy - hey, it's mining, sometimes you don't get 100%+ ROI.

Now whether you want to hope they will rise from the dead and pay everyone back - that's another story. I hope for that too, I have a couple of BTC invested there unfortunately. I got paid back for the Prisma fiasco, which also looked quite hopeless but still far from this clusterfuck.
You have an incredibly loose definition of the term Ponzi. The hallmark of a Ponzi is that it takes in customer/investor money and does nothing with it but use it to pay back earlier investors. If AM took in money for 5PH/s worth of equipment and deployed 5PH/s of equipment, it does not make it a Ponzi if there is a service interruption and they pay customer dividends out of profits/reserves until such time as replacement hardware can be deployed. It just means there's a service interruption.
Now, if FC and/or the AMHash team does run off with all the equipment and coin, it's still not a Ponzi. It might be a theft or a scam, but that is a much broader category than a Ponzi. It would only really be a Ponzi if the entire farm was an elaborate sham, and they've been paying out customers from their own funds this whole time.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: suchmoon on March 04, 2015, 05:27:06 PM
AMHash hasn't been running a ponzi.

So where did the payments in January/February come from? Certainly not from mining?

Of course they ran a ponzi for a couple of months, stop splitting hair. They paid customers' money back to them. It's irrelevant that they weren't signing up any new ones IN THAT PERIOD, if anything that just hastened the collapse. Don't forget that mining ponzis are not your classical investment ponzis - you don't have to pay back 120% or whatever, you can slowly bleed the suckers by paying back 90% of the initial investment and everyone will be happy - hey, it's mining, sometimes you don't get 100%+ ROI.

Now whether you want to hope they will rise from the dead and pay everyone back - that's another story. I hope for that too, I have a couple of BTC invested there unfortunately. I got paid back for the Prisma fiasco, which also looked quite hopeless but still far from this clusterfuck.
You have an incredibly loose definition of the term Ponzi. The hallmark of a Ponzi is that it takes in customer/investor money and does nothing with it but use it to pay back earlier investors. If AM took in money for 5PH/s worth of equipment and deployed 5PH/s of equipment, it does not make it a Ponzi if there is a service interruption and they pay customer dividends out of profits/reserves until such time as replacement hardware can be deployed. It just means there's a service interruption.
Now, if FC and/or the AMHash team does run off with all the equipment and coin, it's still not a Ponzi. It might be a theft or a scam, but that is a much broader category than a Ponzi. It would only really be a Ponzi if the entire farm was an elaborate sham, and they've been paying out customers from their own funds this whole time.

It's not incredibly loose. Maybe a tad wobbly :) but not a lot. There HAS to be some threshold when a business paying out funds collected from customers (and not business profits) can be considered a ponzi regardless of their prior good behavior. To me a couple of months while keeping vital information from customers is more than enough.

In other words, if someone deploys some miners, sells some mining shares, then at some point decides that mining is too much trouble - or gets robbed or whatever - and switches the business model to just keeping slow payouts up to 90% of collected cash back to customers, what do you call that?

Also keep in mind that even though AMHash didn't have a new IPO during that time, their failure to disclose such important information kept the price up on Havelock and anyone who purchased in Jan/Feb has the right to call this an outright scam, if not specifically a ponzi.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on March 04, 2015, 05:46:17 PM
AMHash hasn't been running a ponzi.

So where did the payments in January/February come from? Certainly not from mining?

Of course they ran a ponzi for a couple of months, stop splitting hair. They paid customers' money back to them. It's irrelevant that they weren't signing up any new ones IN THAT PERIOD, if anything that just hastened the collapse. Don't forget that mining ponzis are not your classical investment ponzis - you don't have to pay back 120% or whatever, you can slowly bleed the suckers by paying back 90% of the initial investment and everyone will be happy - hey, it's mining, sometimes you don't get 100%+ ROI.

Now whether you want to hope they will rise from the dead and pay everyone back - that's another story. I hope for that too, I have a couple of BTC invested there unfortunately. I got paid back for the Prisma fiasco, which also looked quite hopeless but still far from this clusterfuck.
You have an incredibly loose definition of the term Ponzi. The hallmark of a Ponzi is that it takes in customer/investor money and does nothing with it but use it to pay back earlier investors. If AM took in money for 5PH/s worth of equipment and deployed 5PH/s of equipment, it does not make it a Ponzi if there is a service interruption and they pay customer dividends out of profits/reserves until such time as replacement hardware can be deployed. It just means there's a service interruption.
Now, if FC and/or the AMHash team does run off with all the equipment and coin, it's still not a Ponzi. It might be a theft or a scam, but that is a much broader category than a Ponzi. It would only really be a Ponzi if the entire farm was an elaborate sham, and they've been paying out customers from their own funds this whole time.

It's not incredibly loose. Maybe a tad wobbly :) but not a lot. There HAS to be some threshold when a business paying out funds collected from customers (and not business profits) can be considered a ponzi regardless of their prior good behavior. To me a couple of months while keeping vital information from customers is more than enough.

In other words, if someone deploys some miners, sells some mining shares, then at some point decides that mining is too much trouble - or gets robbed or whatever - and switches the business model to just keeping slow payouts up to 90% of collected cash back to customers, what do you call that?

Also keep in mind that even though AMHash didn't have a new IPO during that time, their failure to disclose such important information kept the price up on Havelock and anyone who purchased in Jan/Feb has the right to call this an outright scam, if not specifically a ponzi.
I don't disagree that them not disclosing the information to investors is scammy behaviour. They have definitely handled this poorly even if they are running a legitimate company.

For your example, I wouldn't call that a Ponzi, especially if they disclose the fact. Again, all examples here are assuming they are acting in good faith which remains to be seen. If the company at this point is fatally compromised due to the robbery, paying out whatever's left to the investors isn't a bad thing if there's no further path forward. By definition they would have had to invest some of the original funds into hardware to be able to sell the hashrate to begin with, so you wouldn't expect to get everything back. Saying they're paying back from customer funds and not business profits is difficult to show though, since business profits come from customer funds in any business. If Asicminer takes in $X to deploy 5PH/s and it costs them $Y to actually do so, then $X-$Y=$Z is their business profits along with whatever margin they charge on maintenance fees. If there is downtime in the equipment and they cover payments out of what they have left after purchasing equipment, that doesn't mean it is a Ponzi. It's actually much preferable to the alternative, which is "We got robbed, so we're suspending service."


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 04, 2015, 06:32:46 PM
Lets not argue semantics on what is or isnt a ponzi, what really matters is what is or isnt a scam. To be a scam,  there has to be an intent to defraud. Even if AM/AMhash imo clearly should have disclosed what was going on, being asked not to by friedcat along with promises of a fix in the form of replacement hardware, is not an entirely unreasonable explanation and I do not (yet) believe the intend was to defraud their customers. The fact they didnt IPO anything after they were informed of the magical disappearing act, testifies to that.



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: suchmoon on March 04, 2015, 06:54:52 PM
Lets not argue semantics on what is or isnt a ponzi, what really matters is what is or isnt a scam. To be a scam,  there has to be an intent to defraud. Even if AM/AMhash imo clearly should have disclosed what was going on, being asked not to by friedcat along with promises of a fix in the form of replacement hardware, is not an entirely unreasonable explanation and I do not (yet) believe the intend was to defraud their customers. The fact they didnt IPO anything after they were informed of the magical disappearing act, testifies to that.

They clearly defrauded everyone who bought on Havelock in the last two months. The fact that they (AMHash) did not directly profit from that does not make it not a scam, it just makes them incompetent scammers. Had they disclosed what happened at the time it happened the price on Havelock would have reflected how much trust there was in getting the replacement hardware deployed, and it would have been a fair game. The fact that they tried to cover it up is about as much as I need to know about their intent.

Again, that's just my threshold for BS, I'm fully aware that in this Wild West that is Bitcoin everyone can have their own definition of what's acceptable or not. But after the GAW meltdown I'm much less tolerant to these kinds of shenanigans.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 04, 2015, 07:50:14 PM
I think we agree, its just how you phrase it, ie, semantics.  Even the dictionary tells us we are both right, its just that you pick definition 3, Im using the first one:

fraud (frɔːd)
n.
1. deceit or trickery perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.
2. a particular instance of such deceit or trickery: mail fraud; election frauds.
3. something that is not what it pretends.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: SpanishSoldier on March 04, 2015, 07:52:56 PM
AMHash hasn't been running a ponzi.

So where did the payments in January/February come from? Certainly not from mining?

Of course they ran a ponzi for a couple of months, stop splitting hair. They paid customers' money back to them. It's irrelevant that they weren't signing up any new ones IN THAT PERIOD, if anything that just hastened the collapse. Don't forget that mining ponzis are not your classical investment ponzis - you don't have to pay back 120% or whatever, you can slowly bleed the suckers by paying back 90% of the initial investment and everyone will be happy - hey, it's mining, sometimes you don't get 100%+ ROI.

Now whether you want to hope they will rise from the dead and pay everyone back - that's another story. I hope for that too, I have a couple of BTC invested there unfortunately. I got paid back for the Prisma fiasco, which also looked quite hopeless but still far from this clusterfuck.
You have an incredibly loose definition of the term Ponzi. The hallmark of a Ponzi is that it takes in customer/investor money and does nothing with it but use it to pay back earlier investors. If AM took in money for 5PH/s worth of equipment and deployed 5PH/s of equipment, it does not make it a Ponzi if there is a service interruption and they pay customer dividends out of profits/reserves until such time as replacement hardware can be deployed. It just means there's a service interruption.
Now, if FC and/or the AMHash team does run off with all the equipment and coin, it's still not a Ponzi. It might be a theft or a scam, but that is a much broader category than a Ponzi. It would only really be a Ponzi if the entire farm was an elaborate sham, and they've been paying out customers from their own funds this whole time.

It's not incredibly loose. Maybe a tad wobbly :) but not a lot. There HAS to be some threshold when a business paying out funds collected from customers (and not business profits) can be considered a ponzi regardless of their prior good behavior. To me a couple of months while keeping vital information from customers is more than enough.

In other words, if someone deploys some miners, sells some mining shares, then at some point decides that mining is too much trouble - or gets robbed or whatever - and switches the business model to just keeping slow payouts up to 90% of collected cash back to customers, what do you call that?

Also keep in mind that even though AMHash didn't have a new IPO during that time, their failure to disclose such important information kept the price up on Havelock and anyone who purchased in Jan/Feb has the right to call this an outright scam, if not specifically a ponzi.
I don't disagree that them not disclosing the information to investors is scammy behaviour. They have definitely handled this poorly even if they are running a legitimate company.

For your example, I wouldn't call that a Ponzi, especially if they disclose the fact. Again, all examples here are assuming they are acting in good faith which remains to be seen. If the company at this point is fatally compromised due to the robbery, paying out whatever's left to the investors isn't a bad thing if there's no further path forward. By definition they would have had to invest some of the original funds into hardware to be able to sell the hashrate to begin with, so you wouldn't expect to get everything back. Saying they're paying back from customer funds and not business profits is difficult to show though, since business profits come from customer funds in any business. If Asicminer takes in $X to deploy 5PH/s and it costs them $Y to actually do so, then $X-$Y=$Z is their business profits along with whatever margin they charge on maintenance fees. If there is downtime in the equipment and they cover payments out of what they have left after purchasing equipment, that doesn't mean it is a Ponzi. It's actually much preferable to the alternative, which is "We got robbed, so we're suspending service."

I understand that you are trying your best to recover the lost glory of FC. But, they have literally raped him over here in front of thousands of people => https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=974058.0. I think, even Josh Garza was not treated so bad on BitcoinTalk. I was doubtful about FC, but did not expect this for him really...


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on March 04, 2015, 09:45:09 PM
I understand that you are trying your best to recover the lost glory of FC. But, they have literally raped him over here in front of thousands of people => https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=974058.0. I think, even Josh Garza was not treated so bad on BitcoinTalk. I was doubtful about FC, but did not expect this for him really...
I really don't give two shits about Friedcat, and have no money on the line. I'm merely stating that if AMHash had enough hardware to back their sales, "lost" the hardware for a couple months but paid up out of company coffers, then ends up replacing it, that doesn't make them a ponzi. Likewise, if they had all the hardware and were paying dividends out of mining revenue, but then stole all the hardware and ran with the money they are still not a ponzi. They're a bunch of thieves, but it's not a ponzi.

PS - Unless there's pictures in that thread of Bitcointalk users sodomizing FC, I don't think you have a very good grasp on what the word "literally" means.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: armedmilitia on March 04, 2015, 11:22:26 PM
Wow. I can't believe how much of a clusterfuck that turned into.
And to think how much street cred AM had, and then dropping completely off the radar like that. Like the 'pac says, trust no one.
I think I'm going to start using escrow when buying from SP-TECH and bitmain now.  :-\


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 04, 2015, 11:25:31 PM
I think I'm going to start using escrow when buying from SP-TECH and bitmain now.  :-\

Be sure to use multisig, otherwise one day your escrow agent will just run off.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ATCkit on March 05, 2015, 02:02:01 AM
Anyome know anything about this new site: https://multimine.net/

Sounds to good to be true IMO.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Deathwing on March 05, 2015, 02:54:44 AM
Anyome know anything about this new site: https://multimine.net/

Sounds to good to be true IMO.

Agreed, no fees at all because they are "paid from profit on trading".


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: eneloop on March 06, 2015, 01:11:47 PM
Anyome know anything about this new site: https://multimine.net/

Sounds to good to be true IMO.
1+2+3+4+5+6+7 -> 100% SCAM


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: ligeros on March 06, 2015, 01:17:47 PM
Hey Puppet,
Greetings for nice job you have done with this discusion!
Can you please evaluate this "new" cloudmining - hashocean.com ?
For me is clear scam and rumors say - there are the same guys which did hasprofit before.
Regards
G

I'm sure hashocean is hashprofit-2
they have similar design, the same set of 3 referral links (home, pricing, signup pages), send the same daily e-mails about profit


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: kingcolex on March 06, 2015, 05:40:10 PM
Wow. I can't believe how much of a clusterfuck that turned into.
And to think how much street cred AM had, and then dropping completely off the radar like that. Like the 'pac says, trust no one.
I think I'm going to start using escrow when buying from SP-TECH and bitmain now.  :-\
Seriously? AM had NOTHING close to the reputation of Bitmain or SP-Tech, I really don't think an escrow is necessary for the big 2.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 06, 2015, 07:39:03 PM
Downgraded Kryptologika to ponzi. Its a 'secret' passthrough of AMhash but the owner deems it unnecessary to tell this to his investors, even now that Amhash is pretty much gone.

Kryptologika may continue to pay out, but currently there is nothing backing the hashrate and the owner IMO is acting in bad faith, so I have to rate it a ponzi.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: SFMiner on March 06, 2015, 07:56:41 PM
Lets not argue semantics on what is or isnt a ponzi, what really matters is what is or isnt a scam. To be a scam,  there has to be an intent to defraud. Even if AM/AMhash imo clearly should have disclosed what was going on, being asked not to by friedcat along with promises of a fix in the form of replacement hardware, is not an entirely unreasonable explanation and I do not (yet) believe the intend was to defraud their customers. The fact they didnt IPO anything after they were informed of the magical disappearing act, testifies to that.



This is bad news for AMHASH, and even worse news for unsuspecting customers.  I was really hoping FriedCat would produce the BE300S, it sounded promising!

I looked back at my ROI on my (very) small investment in AMHASH shares via Havelock, and I was surprised to see I made a 2% profit over 2 months.  I originally invested in mid-November, and I closed out my position in mid-January.  I was going to write a cloud mining review based on my experience, but looks like that would be pointless now.  I'm surprised AMHASH waited so long to let the public know.

I agree with others that this was more of an outright theft than a ponzi... but I must admit, you've been pretty accurate with your ponzi risk assessment so far!


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Snipe85 on March 07, 2015, 01:28:38 AM
Downgraded Kryptologika to ponzi. Its a 'secret' passthrough of AMhash but the owner deems it unnecessary to tell this to his investors, even now that Amhash is pretty much gone.

Kryptologika may continue to pay out, but currently there is nothing backing the hashrate and the owner IMO is acting in bad faith, so I have to rate it a ponzi.

So the whole backed by silver act was a bullshit?

Amhash was supposed to be one of the most trusted operations. I remember when Hashie started to show signs of a scam people were defending it by saying: 'but it's backed by Amhash, so it has to be legit'


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 07, 2015, 08:26:40 AM
So the whole backed by silver act was a bullshit?

Have you done the math? 1oz of silver is like $15.
Whether its bullshit or not, that never made any sense. Its like saying my house is "backed by gold", its got a gold plated chandelier somewhere.

Quote
Amhash was supposed to be one of the most trusted operations. I remember when Hashie started to show signs of a scam people were defending it by saying: 'but it's backed by Amhash, so it has to be legit'

Hashie at one point resold AMhash hashrate. I also considered AMhash "legit", even though I had always said hashie was a scam operation, and their previous 'gen 1' and later 'firecrackers' or whatever imagined mining products, where clearly non existent. They just used reselling of amhash to confuse customers and gain appearance of legitimacy. Worked well too.

When hashie collapsed, amhash did back their hashrate sold through hashie,  at least until this whole friedcat disappearing act hit and no on knows what to think.

FWIWI dont think AMhash set out to scam; I do think they made a huge mistake by not disclosing this earlier,  but I still believe they had honest intentions, but they were completely dependent on AM. Whatever happened at AM, I also do not believe it was a run of the mill heist, it makes no sense if you think about it, AM has already paid out many times more in dividends to investors then it ever collected, it has delivered on all its hardware sales afaik, and it could have stolen so much more if they had wanted to, by selling the widely anticipated BE300 chips and hashrate. I can only guess, but something like an escalated internal conflict between FC and the general manager resulted in the company breaking apart, perhaps with both people taking a crucial element (bitcoin wallet, asic design) and creating some sort of Mexican standoff.  Whatever the truth, its probably better than most fiction.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on March 07, 2015, 10:22:13 AM
I have responded Puppet in privete communication yesterday what I think of his 'revelations' Basically he does not care of the people who invested in our shares. So be it.

This is my answer on our main bitcointalk thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=732733.msg10689024#msg10689024
Quote
I was just wondering when Puppet will show his true colors and start spreading FUD. I am really disgusted with you.
At some stage a few month ago I considered Puppet to be trusted and worthy member of the bitcoin community as he did a decent work endorsing scams. I have disclosed to him some of the details of our operations. He refused to check our hashrates then. I thought he could be trusted but now I can see how much damage he can make to our brand, my name and kryptologika users.

Kryptologika since the beginning has used many services always looking for the best prices. Before that we mined on our own equipment, at various stages used different providers. And we still do so. We mine, we p[ay dividends and we are not going to go belly up any time soon. I have communicated this to Puppet in private communication. But no, he wants some attention

I hope you all can judge for yourselves. Should this cause panic and major sell off.... well it is your decision.

Nothing has happened, I have nothing to communicate to our customers, business as usual.

PS

Puppet you're an idiot. You have no idea of how mining operations work. All that you see everywhere are scams, and ponzi schemes. I will not address in any way your accusations or revelations in the future as I am sure they will be more. Basically you're a danger to reliable and trustworthy businesses in mining. You just cannot be trusted.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on March 07, 2015, 10:26:25 AM
Downgraded Kryptologika to ponzi. Its a 'secret' passthrough of AMhash but the owner deems it unnecessary to tell this to his investors, even now that Amhash is pretty much gone.

Kryptologika may continue to pay out, but currently there is nothing backing the hashrate and the owner IMO is acting in bad faith, so I have to rate it a ponzi.

So the whole backed by silver act was a bullshit?

Amhash was supposed to be one of the most trusted operations. I remember when Hashie started to show signs of a scam people were defending it by saying: 'but it's backed by Amhash, so it has to be legit'
No, it is not bullshit. I posses physical silver in a form of coins, American Eagles and Philharmonikers.

I really cannot take responsibility for anything Puppet is saying. All I can say he is not privy any more to any details of our operations. Again there will be no official statement to our customers, we take Puppet's behaviour as a non event.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on March 07, 2015, 10:29:08 AM
Quote
Have you done the math? 1oz of silver is like $15.
Whether its bullshit or not, that never made any sense. Its like saying my house is "backed by gold", its got a gold plated chandelier somewhere.

This is how stupid Puppet is.
Find me 1 oz silver coins for $15  ;)
Good there are some people that can do the maths.

Actually I am more than happy with current situation to gain more publicity.
At our shop - business as usual.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: MrTeal on March 07, 2015, 01:37:08 PM
Downgraded Kryptologika to ponzi. Its a 'secret' passthrough of AMhash but the owner deems it unnecessary to tell this to his investors, even now that Amhash is pretty much gone.

Kryptologika may continue to pay out, but currently there is nothing backing the hashrate and the owner IMO is acting in bad faith, so I have to rate it a ponzi.

So the whole backed by silver act was a bullshit?

Amhash was supposed to be one of the most trusted operations. I remember when Hashie started to show signs of a scam people were defending it by saying: 'but it's backed by Amhash, so it has to be legit'
No, it is not bullshit. I posses physical silver in a form of coins, American Eagles and Philharmonikers.

I really cannot take responsibility for anything Puppet is saying. All I can say he is not privy any more to any details of our operations. Again there will be no official statement to our customers, we take Puppet's behaviour as a non event.
Should AMHash not come back, will you sell those silver coins in your possession to buy hashrate at another provider in order to cover your losses?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on March 07, 2015, 01:43:11 PM
Absolutely not. There is no need for it. We are trading as normal as our exposure to amhash is not detrimental.
Silver will be used when the shares loose profitability and users can choose: either to settle in BTC based on COMEX prices or request delivery.

Should you be interested further in Puppet's personal crusade against kryptologika please read more here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=732733.msg10690028#msg10690028


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BombaUcigasa on March 07, 2015, 03:20:10 PM
He refused to check our hashrates then.

No, I refused to base my assessment on non-public information that I was asked to keep secret. You should have let everyone check your hashrates, not just me,  then Id gladly have checked it and anyone could have double checked it. Not disclosing this information publicly would mean my assessment would require people to trust me, which is not much help, thats why I told you: make it public or I will ignore it.
I do not mind if you cause more panic regarding kryptologika. It is my users to judge whether to cash out or stay. Their choice.
Actually it's your choice. And you have chosen badly. I have to side with Puppet here, you can't be trusted until you publicly demonstrate you control your hashrate. It's so simple too, just check this page: https://www.btcguild.com/index.php?page=rankings&section=teams

I can demonstrate my hashrate for days, this doesn't necessarily make it sure fact that I control that hashrate or that they're my miners or that I can remain solvent, but it's more than you have done so far, and it only took us 15 minutes to set up. No need to write soap operas on the forum or accuse people of wrongdoing.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on March 07, 2015, 03:49:29 PM
From the start of this operation I was declaring limited transparency. Why? Because that's actually serves best our customers. I regret I disclosed anything to Puppet  then and I learned my lesson. If I start showing the hashrate I will be asked to do so every couple of days and if I refuse people like yourself will start shouting that kryptologika is a ponzi. For example I can buy large amount of hashrate on the market, show it to you sell shortly afterwards and go back to ponzi. Control of the hashrate is such an arbitrary thing... It tells you nothing.

So sorry but I must refuse to you and to all the others who no doubt will be asking for it in the future.

Some time ago I was pressed by someone who had the same arguments. I tried to explain that because of dropping diff dynamics running ponzi is not possible any more. And some week later we had this massive amount of collapses like lunamine, hashfast and others. So I believe an intelligent person understood that kryptologika wss reliable simply from the fact that it was on the market and we were reducing our prices at the time. Not much changed since.

Therefore I simply do not care. Fortunately this thread is not the most influential on the internet when it comes to bitcoin mining.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BombaUcigasa on March 07, 2015, 04:15:55 PM
From the start of this operation I was declaring limited transparency. Why? Because that's actually serves best our customers. I regret I disclosed anything to Puppet  then and I learned my lesson. If I start showing the hashrate I will be asked to do so every couple of days and if I refuse people like yourself will start shouting that kryptologika is a ponzi. For example I can buy large amount of hashrate on the market, show it to you sell shortly afterwards and go back to ponzi. Control of the hashrate is such an arbitrary thing... It tells you nothing.

So sorry but I must refuse to you and to all the others who no doubt will be asking for it in the future.

Some time ago I was pressed by someone who had the same arguments. I tried to explain that because of dropping diff dynamics running ponzi is not possible any more. And some week later we had this massive amount of collapses like lunamine, hashfast and others. So I believe an intelligent person understood that kryptologika wss reliable simply from the fact that it was on the market and we were reducing our prices at the time. Not much changed since.

Therefore I simply do not care. Fortunately this thread is not the most influential on the internet when it comes to bitcoin mining.
You do what you think it's best for your business. But don't be surprised if the market decides what's best for the customers. You have to compete with ponzis which offer very good profit rates, you can only do that in time.

As a potential customer, I see no reason for you not to disclose your hashrate constantly to your actual customers. You could mine on p2pool style pools, tell them the btcguild or other pool username (split hashrate to maintain security), pay them with fresh coins, show them monitoring facilities, a tour of the mine, etc. There are so many options to offer, even case by case for each client that asks.

Puppet, we trust you, prove this man's hashrate privately!


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on March 07, 2015, 04:46:34 PM
No it is not best for my business. Not at this stage, I do not need to be verified by Puppet and the likes any more.
Besides you do not understand how it works, ask Puppet he was privy to this information.

Keep an eye on our thread if you are truly interested.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=732733.msg10692155#msg10692155
At this stage however you can buy our overpriced shares on the free market only or in packages of 200, 500 and 1,000 for EUR. Or perhaps just wait for the prices to collapse following Puppets FUD! Fingers crossed ;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Blazed on March 07, 2015, 05:59:53 PM
How is AMPonziHash not downgraded yet? I see it as 0-7 still...regardless of situation they have been a Ponzi for months.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: flyingplows on March 07, 2015, 06:33:19 PM
NOW LISTEN TO THIS:
i feel i also have the right to tell what i think about puppet''s rating, and i think it is corrupted or at least biased.
amhash should be rated:

1. o.5 points (no user selectable pool)
2. 1 (rockminer has no equipment and asicminer is laughable - is it even a company lol, it is rather a person of semi-anonymous identity)
3. 1 (i did not see any picture that holds a note it belongs to amhash - it can be pictures of any farm) - plz correct me if i am wrong on this one :)
4. 1 (lol, it is beyond stupidity, its not even a criteria, like, of course, if you sell in batches or if you claim huge hashrate at once in the first place - you are more legit  ;D, so its 1 cause you give it for everyone else.)
6. 1 (real amhash operators ARE anonymous)
7. 1 (unless puppet tells me how to exit now)
8. 1 (is a blatant lie by puppet - just take a look at the 1st page on amhash thread - friedcat says "3. Guaranteed profit".)

so amhash should score 6.5 = ponzi/scam, and i lost money because of you puppet, not a big amount but your rating causes more damage than it helps, especially if people trust you.
what i wanted to say - if people are to trust puppet - you people keep in mind that one incorrect rating causes 100x more damage than all the correct ones will save you, because you'll not need an advice on the obvious either way and you may be misled on the ones that really matter...
puppet i trusted you without much research and i was burnt because of your corrupt rating, i will never trust you anymore.
p.s. if you dont mind disclosing private communications with you from cloudmining operator - please disclose communications between you and amhash, i think everybody would be interested now.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on March 07, 2015, 07:03:05 PM
Well Pup.... someone is shitting in your nest ;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 07, 2015, 07:48:05 PM
Quote
puppet i trusted you without much research and i was burnt because of your corrupt rating,

My list is no substitute for your own due diligence and risk analysis, nor did I ever claim it was. You should have tried reading the disclaimer:

Quote
Disclaimer

being legit does not equal being a good investment. By and large, cloud mining has not been profitable historically, and I dont expect it  will.  I do not recommend you invest in (cloud) mining at all, but if you do, at least invest in a company that will actually contribute to securing the blockchain and is not extremely likely to just steal your money.

Also, being rated as legit here doesnt guarantee you anything. All it shows is that said company has provided reasonable evidence it is a real company and your investment is backed by actual hashrate. It doesnt guarantee they wont scam you, and it certainly doesnt imply anything about profitability.

Amhash did provide the reasonable evidence and the score I gave was fully warranted based on the criteria as I defined them. If you interpreted that somehow as meaning zero risk, you have yourself to blame for that. I couldnt have foreseen what happened any more than I could have foreseen a meteorite striking their building.

But I will say this: I offered to take bets on each of the 6-7 point scams that they would scam their customers, and each of the 0-1 points that they would not. Had anyone taken me up on those bets, I would so far have won 20 out of 21 bets.  Who's got a better average?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 07, 2015, 07:51:09 PM
As for this:

Quote
p.s. if you dont mind disclosing private communications with you from cloudmining operator - please disclose communications between you and amhash, i think everybody would be interested now.

I hereby give permission to the mods to publish any and all PMs between me and amhash. The only thing I ever discussed with them was prior to hashie's collapse, how they could guarantee the hashrate purchased through hashie, since I knew hashie was a scam and would run off. Thats it.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: flyingplows on March 07, 2015, 07:54:39 PM
Quote
puppet i trusted you without much research and i was burnt because of your corrupt rating,

My list is no substitute for your own due diligence and risk analysis, nor did I ever claim it was. You should have tried reading the disclaimer:

Quote
Disclaimer

being legit does not equal being a good investment. By and large, cloud mining has not been profitable historically, and I dont expect it  will.  I do not recommend you invest in (cloud) mining at all, but if you do, at least invest in a company that will actually contribute to securing the blockchain and is not extremely likely to just steal your money.

Also, being rated as legit here doesnt guarantee you anything. All it shows is that said company has provided reasonable evidence it is a real company and your investment is backed by actual hashrate. It doesnt guarantee they wont scam you, and it certainly doesnt imply anything about profitability.

Amhash did provide the reasonable evidence and the score I gave was fully warranted based on the criteria as I defined them. If you interpreted that somehow as meaning zero risk, you have yourself to blame for that. I couldnt have foreseen what happened any more than I could have foreseen a meteorite striking their building.

But I will say this: I offered to take bets on each of the 6-7 point scams that they would scam their customers, and each of the 0-1 points that they would not. Had anyone taken me up on those bets, I would so far have won 20 out of 21 bets.  Who's got a better average?


you just dont include enough :) because if you did you could claim you were right on 100 out of 101, but the thing is that on the only one that was important YOU WERE WRONG. nobody doubts hashnest is legit and all those other are so obvious its even funny to rate them.  ;)
of course you can write what you want, not that its relevant, but you voice your opinion in other threads so i decided to voice in yours.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 07, 2015, 07:58:21 PM
you just dont include enough :) because if you did you could claim you were right on 100 out of 101, but the thing is that on the only one that was important YOU WERE WRONG. nobody doubts hashnest is legit and all those other are so obvious its even funny to rate them.  ;)

So you knew hashie, pbmining etc where ponzi's all along? Good on you, but let me tell you precious few people believed me at the time. And its those people I tried reaching with this 101.

As for nobody doubting hashnest, tell me, how is it more legit than amhash was?



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: flyingplows on March 07, 2015, 08:13:46 PM
you just dont include enough :) because if you did you could claim you were right on 100 out of 101, but the thing is that on the only one that was important YOU WERE WRONG. nobody doubts hashnest is legit and all those other are so obvious its even funny to rate them.  ;)

So you knew hashie, pbmining etc where ponzi's all along? Good on you, but let me tell you precious few people believed me at the time. And its those people I tried reaching with this 101.

As for nobody doubting hashnest, tell me, how is it more legit than amhash was?



pbmining? come on man  ;D ;D ;D

and i will tell you how hashnest is more legit - maybe because bitmain is a legit company producing miners and shipping all over the world and rockminer is a dead company (read rockminer announcement about themselves out of business if you haven't) , not even talking about asicminer which is not a company at all, it seems asicminer is just some mistreated cat or smth. what a scam have they forged before going bankrupt... amazing isn't it?  ;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jimmothy on March 07, 2015, 08:25:23 PM
and i will tell you how hashnest is more legit - maybe because bitmain is a legit company producing miners and shipping all over the world and rockminer is a dead company (read rockminer announcement about themselves out of business if you haven't) , not even talking about asicminer which is not a company at all, it seems asicminer is just some mistreated cat or smth. what a scam have they forged before going bankrupt... amazing isn't it?  ;)

Asicminer has been around much longer than Bitmain (around 1 year longer), and has been a "legit company" producing miners and shipping them all over the world for ~2.5 years now. They've sold millions of dollars worth of hardware and scammed absolutely nobody before this debacle.

Bitmain/hashnest just as easily could have had their hardware stolen and/or CEO disappear and you'd be left holding the bag just like AM/AMhash holders are today.

Puppets guide doesn't guarantee you won't get scammed (even the most legit businesses can turn in to scams), it just helps you pick out the obvious scams (like Kryptologika which you seem to be seriously considering).


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 07, 2015, 08:36:29 PM
Quote
and i will tell you how hashnest is more legit - maybe because bitmain is a legit company producing miners and shipping all over the world

How would that not apply to AM? In fact, AM had been around and 'shipping miners all over the world' for quite a bit  longer than Bitmain.

Quote
and rockminer is a dead company (read rockminer announcement about themselves out of business if you haven't)

Rockminers problem where well known, but its not rockminer that caused this. Its AM's vanishing act.
Who saw that coming? Did you ? There was no more reason to think this would happen to AM than there is reason now to think the same will happen to Bitmain, Bitfury, SPtech or anyone else. Thats what the disclaimer is for, I dont pretend to be able to predict stuff like that,  but if you expect me to predict meteorite crashes, lottery numbers or entire warehouses being stolen or CEO's vanishing/ being kidnapped / whatever, my crystal ball isnt that good.


BTW,
pbmining? come on man  ;D ;D ;D

Your own posting history shows that while you had doubts and asked the right questions, you were far from certain if PBmining, Hashie and many of the other oh so obvious scams where at all scams.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: flyingplows on March 07, 2015, 08:56:20 PM
not that i would believe a word you say, but i was talking about the state of the companies at the time of being ''rated''. btw i dont get how a vanish of ceo can be a life changing event for a BIG company, well unless its 10 person company. either way i am tired and i'll go to sleep now, i just wanted to say - i hate you guys (well not sure if thats not the same person but...) because of promoting scams.  >:(

p.s. the way you defend this puppet, makes your rating irrelevant - if what you say is even supposed to be true then your rating is of no value, you should rename it to scam rating not ponzi rating and include very different and deeper criteria... ::)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: flyingplows on March 07, 2015, 08:58:36 PM


Your own posting history shows that while you had doubts and asked the right questions, you were far from certain if PBmining, Hashie and many of the other oh so obvious scams where at all scams.
[/quote]

of course i was... just wanted some other opinions  :P ;D and wanted to become a hero member and start my own rating thread ;D


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: flyingplows on March 07, 2015, 09:00:41 PM
btw i even liked hashie and i listen to their goodbye song once in a while, i dont blame them - i got tranfered to amhash, all i blame is you  ;D


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jimmothy on March 07, 2015, 09:03:35 PM
of course i was ... ;D i just wanted to become a hero member and start my own rating thread ;D

You should start your own thread. A good title would be "flyingplows misinformation and baseless ratings thread".


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: eneloop on March 07, 2015, 09:03:57 PM
Please use the edit button.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 07, 2015, 09:12:36 PM
p.s. the way you defend this puppet makes your rating irrelevant - if what you say is supposed to be true then your rating is of no value, you should rename it scam rating not ponzi rating and include very different and deeper criteria... ::)

Whats the difference between scam rating and ponzi rating?

What you dont seem to understand is that Im quite sure about the sites labeled scam being scams , and that is the reason for this thread. What I cant know, nor pretend to know is what investments in companies that arent obvious scams will pan out or fail for whatever reasons. Thats where your own due diligence and risk assessment comes in, and blaming me for your failure at that is quite unfair.

Im also tired of hearing I promoted AM, when it got the same rating as Hashnest (am I promoting that too now?) and the same rating even as Cryptx which I had been arguing for months was a monumentally stupid investment. But all these companies did prove not being obvious ponzi's without hashrate, and were scored as such.

But the ONLY thing I ever promoted is keeping your coins in a cold wallet. I never promoted anything else. Had you actually listened to me, you wouldnt have lost a satoshi.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: flyingplows on March 07, 2015, 09:15:34 PM
p.s. the way you defend this puppet makes your rating irrelevant - if what you say is supposed to be true then your rating is of no value, you should rename it scam rating not ponzi rating and include very different and deeper criteria... ::)

Whats the difference between scam rating and ponzi rating?

What you dont seem to understand is that Im quite sure about the sites labeled scam being scams , and that is the reason for this thread. What I cant know, nor pretend to know is what investments in companies that arent obvious scams will pan out or fail for whatever reasons. Thats where your own due diligence and risk assessment comes in, and blaming me for your failure at that is quite unfair.

Im also tired of hearing I promoted AM, when it got the same rating as Hashnest (am I promoting that too now?) and the same rating even as Cryptx which I had been arguing for months was a monumentally stupid investment. But all these companies did prove not being obvious ponzi's without hashrate, and were scored as such.

But the ONLY thing I ever promoted is keeping your coins in a cold wallet. I never promoted anything else. Had you actually listened to me, you wouldnt have lost a satoshi.

''the difference between scam rating and ponzi rating?''

well according to you amhash is not a ponzi but its a scam and everybody knows it by now, it is one of the biggest if not the biggest scam of 2014 cloudmining




Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 07, 2015, 09:24:26 PM
''the difference between scam rating and ponzi rating?''

well according to you amhash is not a ponzi but its a scam and everybody knows it by now, it is one of the biggest if not the biggest scam of 2014 cloudmining

Where do I say its a scam? I have no idea what is going on at AM. And I sure as hell couldnt have predicted it anyhow.

But if you expect me to predict which established legitimate companies will turn in to scams in the future, Id sure love to hear what criteria you would apply.  Post them in your own thread, lets see how you do. Lets see if you correctly predict the next KnC, Avalon or possibly, AM.  I dont have that pretense, Il stick to predicting the next pbmining.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on March 07, 2015, 09:29:29 PM
Look Pup, you have had such nobile intentions, you have became even popular, an authority in the field of ponzis and scams of all sorts in bitcoin mining and look what happened? You were fooled, not your fault but still someone followed your recommendation/opinion and lost.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: RussianRaibow on March 07, 2015, 09:31:39 PM
How is AMPonziHash not downgraded yet? I see it as 0-7 still...regardless of situation they have been a Ponzi for months.

I think, as a trusted member of the community, you should come forward and leave -ve feedback on FriedCat and Puppet, so that no more newbie gets fooled by these scammers. The scam has happened in this case. It is not a conjecture any more...


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jimmothy on March 07, 2015, 09:35:46 PM
How is AMPonziHash not downgraded yet? I see it as 0-7 still...regardless of situation they have been a Ponzi for months.

I think, as a trusted member of the community, you should come forward and leave -ve feedback on FriedCat and Puppet, so that no more newbie gets fooled by these scammers. The scam has happened in this case. It is not a conjecture any more...

Or even better, give russianrainbow/germangiant/spanishsoldier (all the same person) negative feedback for promoting and likely operating the most obvious ponzi known as cloudmining.website.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: flyingplows on March 07, 2015, 09:39:53 PM
''the difference between scam rating and ponzi rating?''

well according to you amhash is not a ponzi but its a scam and everybody knows it by now, it is one of the biggest if not the biggest scam of 2014 cloudmining

Where do I say its a scam? I have no idea what is going on at AM. And I sure as hell couldnt have predicted it anyhow.

But if you expect me to predict which established legitimate companies will turn in to scams in the future, Id sure love to hear what criteria you would apply.  Post them in your own thread, lets see how you do. Lets see if you correctly predict the next KnC, Avalon or possibly, AM.  I dont have that pretense, Il stick to predicting the next pbmining.

1. you did not say AM is scam, but it turned out to be a scam with excuses comparable to hashie and everyone here is aware of this (you just read those insane theft excuses that are impossible to even happen)
btw, its still a mystery for me: are those native people there in china are such stupid that believe this shit of amhash or amhash thinks people in west are so sick anybody would believe those things about friedcat, theft, etc.
2. AM is no more.
3. i dont have my own thread, i said i'll start my own if you get out of this dry ;)
4. of course you could have predicted it - two nearly bankrupt companies, both out of the business at that moment making last attempt to scam on obsolete hardware... man, i wish i learned about crypto a few months earlier...
 :D


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jimmothy on March 07, 2015, 09:42:39 PM
3. i dont have my own thread, i said i'll start my own if you get out of this dry ;)

Please do that and stop posting in this thread. You've made it obvious by now that you have no clue what you're talking about.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: RussianRaibow on March 07, 2015, 09:43:33 PM
How is AMPonziHash not downgraded yet? I see it as 0-7 still...regardless of situation they have been a Ponzi for months.

I think, as a trusted member of the community, you should come forward and leave -ve feedback on FriedCat and Puppet, so that no more newbie gets fooled by these scammers. The scam has happened in this case. It is not a conjecture any more...

Or even better, give russianrainbow/germangiant/spanishsoldier (all the same person) negative feedback for promoting and likely operating the most obvious ponzi known as cloudmining.website.

How funny... I never took part in any sig campaign at all !!! ::)

I'm repeating the portion of my text to justify the -ve feedback on FriedCat and Puppet.

The scam has happened in this case. It is not a conjecture any more...


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 07, 2015, 09:45:03 PM
Look Pup, you have had such nobile intentions, you have became even popular, an authority in the field of ponzis and scams of all sorts in bitcoin mining and look what happened? You were fooled, not your fault but still someone followed your recommendation/opinion and lost.

I wasnt fooled. Surprised, yes, not fooled because I never claimed or thought I could predict the future of every company or everything in the universe. You see, I dont play on the lottery or try to predict the numbers. I do predict my neighbour will lose on his lottery investments, and I tend to get that right pretty much all the time. And yet, you could say I get surprised by every lottery drawing, but its ridiculous to say I get fooled by them just because I didnt predict them.

And anyone who "followed my recommendation/opinion" would still have all his coins in his wallet. If you bought AMhash or anything else listed in the OP, then you did not follow my recommendation. If that turns out badly, thats on you, not on me.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 07, 2015, 09:47:09 PM
4. of course you could have predicted it -

So why didnt you?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: flyingplows on March 07, 2015, 09:55:02 PM
4. of course you could have predicted it -

So why didnt you?

because i just entered crypto at that point, you can see this on account creation :) and i was misled by you..
now i could predict it :)

oh and to that jimoty or whatever shill - you go bash amhash now as you did on gaw cause gaw is an angel in the way they scammed their customers compared to this china corrupt bastards shit


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 07, 2015, 10:01:27 PM
because i just entered crypto at that point, you can see this on account creation :) and i was misled by you..

Right. So you ignored my sound advice of not buying any cloudmining. Then you where too lazy to do your own due diligence to find out what you now say was so obvious. And then when something happened that no one predicted (only you would have),  you blame me for not predicting it?  I have two more words for you: fuck you.
Now stay out of this thread.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: jimmothy on March 07, 2015, 10:02:24 PM
oh and to that jimoty or whatever shill - you go bash amhash now as you did on gaw cause gaw is an angel in the way they scammed their customers compared to this china corrupt bastards shit

I'll hop on the amhash hate train as soon as it's proven to be a scam. At this point the only evidence that it's a scam is the fact that payments have stopped and the CEO is missing. I am not going to lie and say it's definitely not a scam, but in my opinion I find it much more likely that their story is legit. (hardware stolen)

You must not be following the whole GAW scam if you think they treated their customers better. GAW led on their investors for ~6 months promising every week that profit is just over the horizon. Now xpy is worth 1/25th of what was promised.

If this is the end for amhash, people who bought at IPO would have a ~40% loss. Meanwhile GAW/xpy investors are looking at a 90-95% loss in btc.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: flyingplows on March 07, 2015, 10:07:17 PM
p.s. puppet, before i log off i must say that i forgive you... since it was just a start for me it was not a big sum, but i advise others not to trust your rating cause u get scammed like me...
p.s.2. stay tunned for my own thread: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi/scam risk evaluators shills assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁ )  ;D ;D ;D
p.s.3. fuck you too and of course your acc clones too  ;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BombaUcigasa on March 07, 2015, 10:20:07 PM
Look Pup, you have had such nobile intentions, you have became even popular, an authority in the field of ponzis and scams of all sorts in bitcoin mining and look what happened? You were fooled, not your fault but still someone followed your recommendation/opinion and lost.
Cut the bullshit.

He can't predict thefts and bankruptcy. He only signaled which companies were guaranteed to scam you 100% of your money because they were lying about their business model.

AMhash operated according to all points until recently. This thread doesn't protect you from business failure, it protects you from obvious business fraud.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Tigggger on March 07, 2015, 10:58:45 PM
The scam has happened in this case. It is not a conjecture any more...

You are missing the main point of this thread, the clue is in the topic title where it says "ponzi risk assessment" and not "scam risk assessment"

But putting that fact aside you ignored the huge disclaimer in the first post that in summary says "investing in cloud mining is probably a daft idea"

Here is my summary of ALL cloudmining operations, that I posted in the spondoolies thread a while ago

Quote
There are only 2 types of cloud mining available

Genuine
Backed by real hardware and priced so that the provider makes all their profit up front, buyers take all the risk and if they are really really really really really lucky might start making a profit 6-12 months down the line, but with rising difficulty or falling BTC you can soon see a contract end up cancelled long before that point (see Usimoo, cex etc)
Chance of ROI <5%


Ponzi
Priced so that it appears the buyer will start making a profit in a much shorter timespan to make it appealing. Backed by no hardware at all and the operator runs away as soon as new suckers are sending in less money than the old suckers are withdrawing (see pbmining, hashie and a long list of others)
Chance of ROI <1%


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Syke on March 08, 2015, 01:29:16 AM
but i advise others not to trust your rating cause u get scammed like me...

You misunderstand the point of this thread. This is not a general risk assessment thread. It is simply 7 red flags. If you see these red flags, then the operation is likely a scam.

If you don't see these red flags, it tells you nothing about whether they are a scam or not.

This is the part you seem to misunderstand, so I'll repeat it. Make sure you understand it.

If you don't see these red flags, it tells you nothing about whether they are a scam or not.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: flyingplows on March 08, 2015, 07:38:55 AM
but i advise others not to trust your rating cause u get scammed like me...

You misunderstand the point of this thread. This is not a general risk assessment thread. It is simply 7 red flags. If you see these red flags, then the operation is likely a scam.

If you don't see these red flags, it tells you nothing about whether they are a scam or not.

This is the part you seem to misunderstand, so I'll repeat it. Make sure you understand it.

If you don't see these red flags, it tells you nothing about whether they are a scam or not.


i understand that and my point was that in my opinion these flags were absolutely misplaced and amhash should score 6.5. why they were misplaced that is the second question... but...
sorry to disturb you sirs, thanks for polite discussion, i wont post anymore here about this, go on with your agenda, just wanted to see what would be the resistance to a different opinion here  ;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: elasticband on March 08, 2015, 09:16:37 AM
Do people not know the definition s of ponzi and scam?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Muhammed Zakir on March 08, 2015, 09:35:44 AM
Do people not know the definition s of ponzi and scam?

They know but because of their greediness, their resistance power is so low. Investors keep promoting it to keep the ponzi running as long as it can. Else they will loose their money. They are deliberately avoiding the truth "PONZI = SCAM"!!!

   -MZ


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: armedmilitia on March 09, 2015, 01:13:28 PM
Multimine just collapsed. It wasn't listed here, must be one of the shortest lived ponzis I've seen in a while.

Official thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=971306.0;topicseen

Also, speaking of mining ponzis...
Here's a hilariously "not a shill" reddit thread I ran into a few days ago:

https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMining/comments/2ya3ka/this_cloud_mining_website_has_actually_made_me/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMining/comments/2ya3ka/this_cloud_mining_website_has_actually_made_me/)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: TheIZS on March 10, 2015, 04:41:50 PM
p.s. puppet, before i log off i must say that i forgive you... since it was just a start for me it was not a big sum, but i advise others not to trust your rating cause u get scammed like me...
p.s.2. stay tunned for my own thread: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi/scam risk evaluators shills assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁ )  ;D ;D ;D
p.s.3. fuck you too and of course your acc clones too  ;)


You forget this isn't about helping people, its about puppet being the all knowing guru. If you have been paying attention the "puppet system" is about a 50/50 for being reliable. Not bad, but then neither is blackjack. Then there is the issue of not actually admitting a miss RE: GAW which we all now know was a ponzi before GAW even existed. You proudly proclaim the founder of BCCS a "known sscammer" but never mention Garbozo's shady dealings on Ebay.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Stargazer on March 10, 2015, 05:31:55 PM
GAW which we all now know was a ponzi before GAW even existed.
Sure, they are stealing your money since the 90's.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: kingcolex on March 10, 2015, 05:36:43 PM
Multimine just collapsed. It wasn't listed here, must be one of the shortest lived ponzis I've seen in a while.

Official thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=971306.0;topicseen

Also, speaking of mining ponzis...
Here's a hilariously "not a shill" reddit thread I ran into a few days ago:

https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMining/comments/2ya3ka/this_cloud_mining_website_has_actually_made_me/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMining/comments/2ya3ka/this_cloud_mining_website_has_actually_made_me/)
Wow didn't even hear about this one yet, I at least expect noobs to promote it based off referral bonuses.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Sine(X) on March 11, 2015, 07:14:03 AM
Hypothesis

Fact 1: AM disappeared
Fact 2: Network hashrate didn't drop
Fact 3: New Chinese player - BW Pool ~40Phs

What do we know about BW Pool? Nothing.
What do we know about AM now? Nothing.

I suppose it's not a coincidence, FC is a part of BW Pool. It's scam, nothing personal.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 11, 2015, 07:36:49 AM
Seems unlikely. AM had ~5PH. BW is operating ~100PH (they host antpool too). Who would jeopardize a venture this large by including 5% worth of stolen hardware?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Sine(X) on March 11, 2015, 09:35:29 AM
Seems unlikely. AM had ~5PH. BW is operating ~100PH (they host antpool too). Who would jeopardize a venture this large by including 5% worth of stolen hardware?

I thought AM is more then 5Phs, AMHash in only 5Phs..
BW is 100Phs? Really? Who are they? They have an original cloud mining service, but I'm afraid they are also scam (though it's clear they have true mining). Do you plan to include them into your list?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 11, 2015, 10:16:57 AM
I thought AM is more then 5Phs, AMHash in only 5Phs..

It might have been a bit more at some stage, but it was probably even less than 5PH before it went down, as some smaller datacenter was reportedly unplugged due to too high costs. It was in that ballpark however, no where near 100.

Quote
BW is 100Phs? Really? Who are they? They have an original cloud mining service, but I'm afraid they are also scam (though it's clear they have true mining). Do you plan to include them into your list?

Ive been reluctant to add anything to the list for some time, as the main purpose of the OP is not the list but the criteria themselves and the logic behind it. The list started as illustration and now I see its become the focus, and it shouldnt be. People should make their own assessment and the criteria are there to help them filter out obvious ponzi's. I also dont want it to be abused as free advertising for fresh ponzi's, Ive noticed some cloudmining scams actually like being listed even if they score 7/7 on the ponzi scale, just because it gives them exposure to the ponzi gamblers.

As for BW;  I dont speak enough Chinese/chinglese to make a full assessment, but at first glance, it would probably score fairly well on my criteria, its clearly not an obvious scam, but neither was AMhash. So whether that means you ought to trust them is something I cant help you with and you know how I feel about (cloud)mining in general..


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: acquafredda on March 12, 2015, 03:09:40 PM
this has been one of the most important thread so far.
I don't understand what people complain about.
There's no guarantee whatsoever in this world and if you still buy cloudmining related things prepare to burn.

Use your heads!

 ;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Hazir on March 14, 2015, 07:11:28 PM
Hey guys, your are far better at judging whether something is ponzi/scam or a regular cloud mining severice. I just read this thread in bitcoin discussion
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=989670.msg10768529#msg10768529 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=989670.msg10768529#msg10768529) And I want to ask you what do you think of it? It is legit announcement or another dubious cloud mining service is just popping out?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cyberpinoy on March 14, 2015, 07:21:24 PM
Hello Puppet, your services are required by someone on the forum https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=989670.0 I invite you to investigate my cloud business and I will also send you my skype so you an do a complete evaluation of me and my company.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: picolo on March 14, 2015, 10:50:16 PM
Hello Puppet, your services are required by someone on the forum https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=989670.0 I invite you to investigate my cloud business and I will also send you my skype so you an do a complete evaluation of me and my company.

A Senior Member that creates a cloud mining company and asks to be audited is very positive. It will be interesting to see the audit by Puppet !


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on March 14, 2015, 11:13:04 PM
Be careful. At the end of the day Puppet will disclose to the public whatever he gets as a privileged information to compromise you as he tried with kryptologika.com.




Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cyberpinoy on March 14, 2015, 11:36:01 PM
Be careful. At the end of the day Puppet will disclose to the public whatever he gets as a privileged information to compromise you as he tried with kryptologika.com.




Hmm that seems unusual because in his reply to me he declined a skype call to make an educated decision added wiht the other info he finds but he said

"However, I have always maintained a "no privileged info" policy, I do not base my assessments on anything other than publicly verifiable information, so that anyone can double check my assessments without having to trust me or my judgement."

I am n ot sure how you can make a rating system people depend on if you arent even willing to skype to get some answers, especially in my case where my cloud business does not have the use or need for hardware nor promotes its use.

To be quite honest if you scroll thru this thread actually you will see I neither agree with his system nor like his biased info, but to appease my potential customers I wanted to see where we ranked. It will be hard for him as we do not do hardware mining its a new business no one has ever tried and so far has outstanding results for our clients. In less than a week I have watched as their daily earnings have increased 25% and the compounded interest earning on thier overall profit on investment have increased 5%.

Because of this I am very proud of the project we put together, i am happy with the coins we chose after all the extensive tests we went thru.



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Syke on March 14, 2015, 11:46:29 PM
Hey guys, your are far better at judging whether something is ponzi/scam or a regular cloud mining severice. I just read this thread in bitcoin discussion
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=989670.msg10768529#msg10768529 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=989670.msg10768529#msg10768529) And I want to ask you what do you think of it? It is legit announcement or another dubious cloud mining service is just popping out?

Let's see what they say...

We do not use mining hardware in our business because its not needed :)

A "mining" solution where there is no actual "mining" going on. Not so much a ponzi. More like a HYIP.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Superhitech on March 15, 2015, 12:40:03 AM
Hey guys, your are far better at judging whether something is ponzi/scam or a regular cloud mining severice. I just read this thread in bitcoin discussion
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=989670.msg10768529#msg10768529 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=989670.msg10768529#msg10768529) And I want to ask you what do you think of it? It is legit announcement or another dubious cloud mining service is just popping out?

Let's see what they say...

We do not use mining hardware in our business because its not needed :)

A "mining" solution where there is no actual "mining" going on. Not so much a ponzi. More like a HYIP.

Also, Gleb Gamow has posted a convincing scam accusation against them:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=990219.0


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 15, 2015, 08:02:28 AM
Be careful. At the end of the day Puppet will disclose to the public whatever he gets as a privileged information to compromise you as he tried with kryptologika.com.

Hmm that seems unusual because in his reply to me he declined a skype call to make an educated decision added wiht the other info he finds but he said 

Its not because Im given privileged information (unasked) that I use that info for my assessment. I was told and given evidence kryptologika owned AMhash shares, but the scoring didnt reflect that, it still scored bad points for proving hashrate ownership, because the information wasnt public. Of course it became a different story once I knew kryptologika no longer had access to the hashrate it owned, and declined to share that info with its customer because 'they need not know'.

A "mining" solution where there is no actual "mining" going on. Not so much a ponzi. More like a HYIP.

Exactly. It therefore has no place in this list, but if you want my personal 2 cents: stay away. The whole scheme seems predicated on pump and dump coins.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cyberpinoy on March 15, 2015, 09:21:41 PM
Hey guys, your are far better at judging whether something is ponzi/scam or a regular cloud mining severice. I just read this thread in bitcoin discussion
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=989670.msg10768529#msg10768529 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=989670.msg10768529#msg10768529) And I want to ask you what do you think of it? It is legit announcement or another dubious cloud mining service is just popping out?

Let's see what they say...

We do not use mining hardware in our business because its not needed :)

A "mining" solution where there is no actual "mining" going on. Not so much a ponzi. More like a HYIP.

Also, Gleb Gamow has posted a convincing scam accusation against them:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=990219.0

First I should say after an extensive days of literal crap from Mr Gleb ....

Okay you win! Please accept my humble apology. I was just trying to see how far I could I push you. You past the test and I honestly believe in my heart of hearts that ShareMiners is legit.

I will close this thread and ask the mods to delete it after your last reply.

Later, bud.

Bruno Kucinskas

Ok now this thread:

There is Mining going on its called POS mining (Proof of stake). Our www.stakeminers.com/how.php shows you how combining staking power increases your staking weight on the network, and this results in more frequent stakes with higher rewards per stake. it works like regular mining and your connection to the network as a server enables you to confirm the transactions and help secure the network.

Because an operation of this size could fill a wallet up quickly we have to use more than one coin, we don't want to dominate a network because then your own blocks inside your wallet are fighting each other for a reward. So we have started with a few coins. Because a business like this could literally be forced to buy coins on a daily basis it also secures your investment because we make a lot of buys on the markets which helps to increase the value of the coins and help to make those increases more steady. This all  helps to increase the value of our investors original investments as well.

When putting this project together we first started looking into hardware POW mining, but then decided we wanted a way that we could offer a service that did not have maintenance fees or huge financial consumption in hardware. Situations like that can effect our investors income in a negative way and are things we can not control. As we researched we came across the benefits of POS coins so we began testing. As we tested more and more coins and their staking abilities, we found just the right few to start out with. Each coin does staking a little differently when it comes to the rewards you receive, but all of them have the same basic mechanics, you hold more coins you raise your staking weight on the network. Some coins you have to manually split blocks inside the wallet others do it automatically. So our business is not without work, we still have to manually split blocks sometimes in the wallets so our investors get the maximum income on their staking.

We then looked at the problems investors face with other cloud mining options, and the worst one we saw was the dreaded "I'm Sorry our service is under a DDOS attack" and we all know where that ends up. So to avoid this we do not host the wallets online at all, they are hosted in the office on computers where we can watch them, completely separate from the webserver. SO if one does hack and attack the website, our investors have a layer of security knowing their investment is not near the attackers. Altho this creates a lkot of manual data entry on our end, it still allows us to keep our members investments as safe as we can keep them away form online attacks against the site.

we really have spent a lot of time researching this project and it has actually proven better than we originally expected. the increases in earnings are moving faster than we tested right now, and the compound interest is moving very steadily as well.

EDIT:  I will like to say we do have mining hardware mining the POW sections of the coins we use, but this is to help pay for the overhead costs of the business as well as add extra coins to the wallets of our members. By doing this we pay the bills and at the same time have a little left over to add to the staking weight of our clients. It is a win win for both of us in the end. We do not rent this equipment out, we do not sell contracts for it, it is only used to back our investors up and pay the bills nothing more.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Syke on March 15, 2015, 09:28:54 PM
There is Mining going on its called POS mining (Proof of stake). Our www.stakeminers.com/how.php shows you how combining staking power increases your staking weight on the network, and this results in more frequent stakes with higher rewards per stake. it works like regular mining and your connection to the network as a server enables you to confirm the transactions and help secure the network.

POS mining also can show proof of mining. Where is your proof that you are POS mining?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cyberpinoy on March 15, 2015, 09:34:12 PM
There is Mining going on its called POS mining (Proof of stake). Our www.stakeminers.com/how.php shows you how combining staking power increases your staking weight on the network, and this results in more frequent stakes with higher rewards per stake. it works like regular mining and your connection to the network as a server enables you to confirm the transactions and help secure the network.

POS mining also can show proof of mining. Where is your proof that you are POS mining?

This image actually shows a few things, it shows yes we are staking in a wallet , yes we are also depositing to the wallet and NO we are not withdrawing from the wallet.

It also shows the increased staking amounts as we mine and deposit as well :)

Edit: LOL and if you look really close on the top left you can see cgminer running in the background as well LOL I didnt crop the image all the way on the left sorry.

http://i57.tinypic.com/vzbt01.jpg


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Gleb Gamow on March 15, 2015, 09:48:52 PM
Hey guys, your are far better at judging whether something is ponzi/scam or a regular cloud mining severice. I just read this thread in bitcoin discussion
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=989670.msg10768529#msg10768529 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=989670.msg10768529#msg10768529) And I want to ask you what do you think of it? It is legit announcement or another dubious cloud mining service is just popping out?

Let's see what they say...

We do not use mining hardware in our business because its not needed :)

A "mining" solution where there is no actual "mining" going on. Not so much a ponzi. More like a HYIP.

Also, Gleb Gamow has posted a convincing scam accusation against them:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=990219.0

First I should say after an extensive days of literal crap from Mr Gleb ....

Okay you win! Please accept my humble apology. I was just trying to see how far I could I push you. You past the test and I honestly believe in my heart of hearts that ShareMiners is legit.

I will close this thread and ask the mods to delete it after your last reply.

Later, bud.

Bruno Kucinskas

Ok now this thread:

There is Mining going on its called POS mining (Proof of stake). Our www.stakeminers.com/how.php shows you how combining staking power increases your staking weight on the network, and this results in more frequent stakes with higher rewards per stake. it works like regular mining and your connection to the network as a server enables you to confirm the transactions and help secure the network.

Because an operation of this size could fill a wallet up quickly we have to use more than one coin, we don't want to dominate a network because then your own blocks inside your wallet are fighting each other for a reward. So we have started with a few coins. Because a business like this could literally be forced to buy coins on a daily basis it also secures your investment because we make a lot of buys on the markets which helps to increase the value of the coins and help to make those increases more steady. This all  helps to increase the value of our investors original investments as well.

When putting this project together we first started looking into hardware POW mining, but then decided we wanted a way that we could offer a service that did not have maintenance fees or huge financial consumption in hardware. Situations like that can effect our investors income in a negative way and are things we can not control. As we researched we came across the benefits of POS coins so we began testing. As we tested more and more coins and their staking abilities, we found just the right few to start out with. Each coin does staking a little differently when it comes to the rewards you receive, but all of them have the same basic mechanics, you hold more coins you raise your staking weight on the network. Some coins you have to manually split blocks inside the wallet others do it automatically. So our business is not without work, we still have to manually split blocks sometimes in the wallets so our investors get the maximum income on their staking.

We then looked at the problems investors face with other cloud mining options, and the worst one we saw was the dreaded "I'm Sorry our service is under a DDOS attack" and we all know where that ends up. So to avoid this we do not host the wallets online at all, they are hosted in the office on computers where we can watch them, completely separate from the webserver. SO if one does hack and attack the website, our investors have a layer of security knowing their investment is not near the attackers. Altho this creates a lkot of manual data entry on our end, it still allows us to keep our members investments as safe as we can keep them away form online attacks against the site.

we really have spent a lot of time researching this project and it has actually proven better than we originally expected. the increases in earnings are moving faster than we tested right now, and the compound interest is moving very steadily as well.

EDIT:  I will like to say we do have mining hardware mining the POW sections of the coins we use, but this is to help pay for the overhead costs of the business as well as add extra coins to the wallets of our members. By doing this we pay the bills and at the same time have a little left over to add to the staking weight of our clients. It is a win win for both of us in the end. We do not rent this equipment out, we do not sell contracts for it, it is only used to back our investors up and pay the bills nothing more.

Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ALERT!: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=990219.msg10784449#msg10784449

You thought Day #1 was bad! Wait till Leroy Fodor gets a load of Day #2.  :o


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cyberpinoy on March 15, 2015, 10:05:23 PM
Gleb you are a useless liar, the thrill is over bro I will not appease you any longer, I have disproven you on 99.9 percent of your accusations, all you are doing now is breaking the law, you have no proof of any kind to back up your claims, At least puppet has a real system(I may not like it but its a real system) Be happy I am not in the states or I would sue you for defamation of character, slander, invasion of privacy and any other law my lawyer can rack up against you.

I will not waste anymore time with you it was fun because I kept feeding you, I hope you had fun digging in my life a person with real problems,

PUPPET this is why no one in crypto has anything available, he is why people whois guard everything, and no addresses or phone numbers, idiots like gleb, he never once proved anything negative about me except I changed my twitter months ago then changed it again last week. I tried to met you fucking standards and look what it got  a days full of crap from a retired Moron who just wants attention and read my life and my business partners life like a soap opera. hes never proven I am a scam or I have done anything illegal or wrong against anyone, but this is what i get fdor abiding by what people wanted, by being opened to who I am and what I am doing.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on March 15, 2015, 10:05:43 PM
Quote
Of course it became a different story once I knew kryptologika no longer had access to the hashrate it owned, and declined to share that info with its customer because 'they need not know'.
But it is the decision of the management whether to disclose it or not. Your "info" very well could have caused panic among the customers of our platform. I told you it is a quite a minor thing as we had means to buy back the missing hashrate (which at the time of the disclosure was less than 5TH\s. Your behaviour Puppet is a shame. CUstomers need to know that you are spreading disinformation based on your personal prejudice towards kryptologika. Very well this may happen to another business.
Fortunately We have quite strong client base growing every week. And your "revelations" already have been commented on our main thread so sorry but your FUD did not work.

I will be reminding of this situation from time to time on this thread because people need to know.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 15, 2015, 10:13:01 PM
But it is the decision of the management whether to disclose it or not.

The decision not to disclose info like that, is what defines a scam. And I dont feel beholden to keep information from scammers secret.

Do you not think any and all information about AM/Amhash should be made public now? Do you not think they should have disclosed the theft/forfeiture/disappearance of their mine and CEO ? Of course you do, (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=833704.msg10784754#msg10784754) you have been shouting it for weeks now, and thus on top of everything else, you are a hypocrite.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on March 15, 2015, 10:22:03 PM
That's a different story. Scale is the case. If I am mining, selling shares and at the same time I am speculating on the hashing power on another market there might be periods when I am actually not mining at all!  SHall I disclose this to my customers or is it just my business? Shall the customers know how the sausages are made??

As long as I have the hashrate covered with bitcoins or close to it (or reasonably close to it) spreading FUD is a nonsense. And you did it! And it did not work ;)



Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cyberpinoy on March 15, 2015, 10:37:51 PM
Quote
Of course it became a different story once I knew kryptologika no longer had access to the hashrate it owned, and declined to share that info with its customer because 'they need not know'.
But it is the decision of the management whether to disclose it or not. Your "info" very well could have caused panic among the customers of our platform. I told you it is a quite a minor thing as we had means to buy back the missing hashrate (which at the time of the disclosure was less than 5TH\s. Your behaviour Puppet is a shame. CUstomers need to know that you are spreading disinformation based on your personal prejudice towards kryptologika. Very well this may happen to another business.
Fortunately We have quite strong client base growing every week. And your "revelations" already have been commented on our main thread so sorry but your FUD did not work.

I will be reminding of this situation from time to time on this thread because people need to know.

A shame, puppets actions were a shame, be happy Gleb the embellisher hasn't sunk his teeth into you, this dude compares unrelated things, pulls up your info from 10 years ago and never once tries to prove you are a scam. His whole point is to troll you until you just break and want to bash his face in wiht a board. What puppet does (again even if I dont agree with it) what puppet does at least has  professionalism in it, and by far would be very hard to get a slander lawsuit against. What Gleb does that sir is a shame.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 15, 2015, 10:39:20 PM
That's a different story. Scale is the case. If I am mining, selling shares and at the same time I am speculating on the hashing power on another market there might be periods when I am actually not mining at all!  SHall I disclose this to my customers or is it just my business?

Doh. If you dont disclose info like that (fractional reserve mining, not mining at all, speculating with other people's coin), how dare you even ask?  Of course it makes you a scammer if you are selling hashrate you do not have  its the whole premise of this thread! And of course you are a scammer if you gamble with other people's money without telling them.

Quote
And you did it! And it did not work Wink

Its difficult to scare customers that fortunately, dont exist. I can only hope it stays like that.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cyberpinoy on March 15, 2015, 10:43:16 PM
Here is the bottom line, especially here in the most toxic forum in bitcoins, no matter how hard we work, no matter how hard we try, if it involves a way we can make money and help others make money we are the scammers from the get go, we are the liars, we are judged by all the looser hacking scammers that screwed everyone else over. Your company is only legit if its alive for 9 years, if not YOUR A SCAM, your company is only worth a crap if your rich,  if you work your butt off to create something positive YOUR A SCAM.

Microsoft started in a garage, and look where they are, google started in someones basement and look where they are. sometimes, just sometimes people really are looking out to make something that will work and benefit people, Not everyone is trying to screw people over.  


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on March 15, 2015, 10:48:23 PM
Quote
Its difficult to scare customers that fortunately, dont exist. I can only hope it stays like that.
Some 367 of active users at the moment ;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cyberpinoy on March 15, 2015, 10:54:21 PM
Quote
Its difficult to scare customers that fortunately, dont exist. I can only hope it stays like that.
Some 367 of active users at the moment ;)

That was a door you just opened sir.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cyberpinoy on March 15, 2015, 10:59:12 PM
That's a different story. Scale is the case. If I am mining, selling shares and at the same time I am speculating on the hashing power on another market there might be periods when I am actually not mining at all!  SHall I disclose this to my customers or is it just my business? Shall the customers know how the sausages are made??

As long as I have the hashrate covered with bitcoins or close to it (or reasonably close to it) spreading FUD is a nonsense. And you did it! And it did not work ;)


\
Not to defend puppet, his actions or anything but what you did would seem a bit shady to an investor. If there was a problem, and you have the funds to cover it, the best route would have been get it covered ASAP, buy the equipment, show the receipts and let your investors know the story, cause people like Gleb are just waiting for you to screw up. if they hear it from you first the panic is not going to happen, but to hear it from a well respected scam reporter, thats what will hurt you.


Title: Re: Cloudmining 101 (spamfree thread)
Post by: galdur on March 15, 2015, 11:13:42 PM
i am interested in mining as newbie and this thread is easy to understand.
mining at this point is not wise? or is it better to wait for later moment when price is higher.

What's so hard about buying bitcoin? The fact you don't have to beg someone for it back?

Watching it constantly tank - I guess. Although it has been showing some signs of life in the past month or so. Let´s hope it lasts.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on March 15, 2015, 11:23:00 PM
Quote
Its difficult to scare customers that fortunately, dont exist. I can only hope it stays like that.
Some 367 of active users at the moment ;)

That was a door you just opened sir.

We are going towards greater transparency. We will be publishing numbers, hashrate etc. I am happy to disclose some figures in a non official way even in this shitty thread ;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cyberpinoy on March 15, 2015, 11:27:18 PM
Quote
Its difficult to scare customers that fortunately, dont exist. I can only hope it stays like that.
Some 367 of active users at the moment ;)

That was a door you just opened sir.

We are going towards greater transparency. We will be publishing numbers, hashrate etc. I am happy to disclose some figures in a non official way even in this shitty thread ;)

if you want off the bad list thats what you have to do sir.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on March 15, 2015, 11:30:26 PM
Quote
Its difficult to scare customers that fortunately, dont exist. I can only hope it stays like that.
Some 367 of active users at the moment ;)

That was a door you just opened sir.

We are going towards greater transparency. We will be publishing numbers, hashrate etc. I am happy to disclose some figures in a non official way even in this shitty thread ;)

if you want off the bad list thats what you have to do sir.

I do not care. I cared six months ago when we had 20 customers. Now our client base is growing at steady rate, we should just publish some figures;)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Snipe85 on March 16, 2015, 12:33:23 AM
Here is the bottom line, especially here in the most toxic forum in bitcoins, no matter how hard we work, no matter how hard we try, if it involves a way we can make money and help others make money we are the scammers from the get go, we are the liars, we are judged by all the looser hacking scammers that screwed everyone else over. Your company is only legit if its alive for 9 years, if not YOUR A SCAM, your company is only worth a crap if your rich,  if you work your butt off to create something positive YOUR A SCAM.

Microsoft started in a garage, and look where they are, google started in someones basement and look where they are. sometimes, just sometimes people really are looking out to make something that will work and benefit people, Not everyone is trying to screw people over.  

You have a point, but people attacking companies in this thread have one too. The fact is at least one out of 2 mining companies is made to scam people. Another half of those that remain also turn out to be scams later on because of lack of profits, debts and so on. Microsoft wasn't a scam but in Bitcoin we already had Karpeles and Brewster with their big startups. We also had PB mining that run with the money once someone doxed the owner. I'm sure some people here have their own agendas and are puppets (no pun intended) of other companies, but the majority of projects attacked here is shady to say the least.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BombaUcigasa on March 16, 2015, 02:47:32 AM
Quote
Its difficult to scare customers that fortunately, dont exist. I can only hope it stays like that.
Some 367 of active users at the moment ;)

That was a door you just opened sir.

We are going towards greater transparency. We will be publishing numbers, hashrate etc. I am happy to disclose some figures in a non official way even in this shitty thread ;)

if you want off the bad list thats what you have to do sir.

I do not care. I cared six months ago when we had 20 customers. Now our client base is growing at steady rate, we should just publish some figures;)
Let's review the action so far...

Puppet discloses all information required for customers to inform themselves of the potential financial implications of their investments. This is important, because even the best of the best defraud their customers in this domain. If he has some information about potential risks, I want to know it, as a potential customer. Deal with it. Give him only information you would give any customer. I use his thread to point it out to people thinking they are "mining" when instead they are getting ripped off with fake revenue and fat referral payments. Many people have switched to honest mining activities, including buying actual miners. It is important to identify risky mining companies and he does a good job. I provide my contacts with a live updated exchange rating analysis so they can decide where to send their funds and not lose them.

cyberpinoy has the mind, language, emotions and public relations skills of a 13 year old child. Mining is needed for Bitcoin to function, it is not a pure business exercise where you put in some money and take out some money just for kicks. I would never invest in anything you touch after seeing your lies, bullshit, try-hard walls of wasted text and inability to resolve criticism. I would also never invest into your PoS system as it would be at risk of fractional reserve if any of your wallets, systems, coins, blockchains, etc, decide to fail for some reason, causing your clients to lose money. Also because of the nature of "free money" in PoS coins, where the security costs (that "wasted electricity") is zero, so the reward for zero cost is also zero, the price of the coins self-corrects to zero slowly in time. This means people pay you 100% of their Bitcoin and you give out less than 100% back. I would also not invest 100% of my risk for a small (promised) increase of PoS rewards, it costs me 5$ a month to keep as many PoS wallets as I want, why would I need your business? Your business should not be listed here as reliable until you can prove mining hardware AND security for PoS hosting in a reliable way. Until then, I can't differentiate your business from a scam.

People, get this into your head. There are many scams out there stealing people's savings and investment funds. You need to show fucking simple steps to prove your a legitimate operation and prevent potential clients from giving their money to scams instead of your legitimate business. It's not hard, why do you not get this?!


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cyberpinoy on March 16, 2015, 03:43:56 AM

cyberpinoy has the mind, language, emotions and public relations skills of a 13 year old child. Mining is needed for Bitcoin to function, it is not a pure business exercise where you put in some money and take out some money just for kicks. I would never invest in anything you touch after seeing your lies, bullshit, try-hard walls of wasted text and inability to resolve criticism. I would also never invest into your PoS system as it would be at risk of fractional reserve if any of your wallets, systems, coins, blockchains, etc, decide to fail for some reason, causing your clients to lose money. Also because of the nature of "free money" in PoS coins, where the security costs (that "wasted electricity") is zero, so the reward for zero cost is also zero, the price of the coins self-corrects to zero slowly in time. This means people pay you 100% of their Bitcoin and you give out less than 100% back. I would also not invest 100% of my risk for a small (promised) increase of PoS rewards, it costs me 5$ a month to keep as many PoS wallets as I want, why would I need your business? Your business should not be listed here as reliable until you can prove mining hardware AND security for PoS hosting in a reliable way. Until then, I can't differentiate your business from a scam.

People, get this into your head. There are many scams out there stealing people's savings and investment funds. You need to show fucking simple steps to prove your a legitimate operation and prevent potential clients from giving their money to scams instead of your legitimate business. It's not hard, why do you not get this?!

As with any Mining business there is always risk, No one in any of these business can ever guarantee you anything. If they do try to they are lieing. We have done many tests to try and find a way that the POS system can work for our investors, why would someone put their coins in with us instead of staking themselves. Because unless you have an extra 40 Bitcoins to add to that 5 dollars a month you are paying to stake those 5 wallets on your computer, you are not getting the full reward or the full staking potential you can. You are getting 20% to 30% interest on your investment and staking 1/2 the time you could be by combining your efforts with others. Our pool gives investors of any kind a chance to invest and earn higher rewards than stake mining themselves. www.stakeminers.com/how.php shows exactly how 1 of the coins we use works and the true benefits of combining mining power together. The difference is, you can earn 840 of those coins staking on your own or you could earn 5000 of those coins staking in a pool for a year.

If you have 40 Bitcoins to buy your own coins by all means, I will not lie to you, it would be most beneficial for you to stake on your own. In addition if anyone did deposit 40BTC we would have to do an investigation to the funds. A 40 BTC investment is very large for anyone to throw around and before we applied that amount to the pool where it could effect our other investors in a negative way, we would have to find any way possible that those funds are legit. Even tho it would be fine for a 40BTC investor to mine on his own, we actually use more than one coin and the investors are paid their proportion of the total income in the business, they are not restricted to the income of one coin but the income of all the coins used to stake in our business. So, a 40BTC investment could make a slightly bigger return with us, But I would still have to say you would be just fine to use that and stake on your own.

This is not a zero cost business in any way, you have to purchase coins yuou are going to stake, and that does cost , but the difference is that value is held in a wallet, and as a large group who may invest continually you actually can in some ways control the price of the coins you stake on. Look at coinsminers dot com, who stole 4000 BTC in their months of operation, now imagine if they took that 4000 BTC and instead of stealing it actually bought coins with it, I think it was 6 months they were in operation. That is 22 BTC you are feeding the market a day, every day 22 BTC buys, every day 22 BTC buys, that can do nothing but raise and secure your investment.

If the project continues to progress as it is, it forces us to buy coins every single day, if you are consistently buying coins more than are being sold it will cause the value of the coins to rise. It may be slowly but all investments are over time anyways. If by "hosting" you mean put the wallets online, that is not part of our policy, the biggest problem these scam companies use is the fact their wallets are located online or on the same server as their website, and they claim ddos attack hacks and ends up stealing peoples investments. I and our business refuse to put our investors money online where any hacker with an itch may hack into their investment wallets.  I posted an investment staking wallet above, and to our clients they can request to have the wallet addresses where they can personally watch their investments, we have no problem giving those to our investors at any time they as for them. (I am sure you understand the risk of making those address public to anyone and everyone)

The need to provide evidence of the mining hardware again can be given to our investors no problem, but we do not advertise its use on an advertisement scale, there is mention of it on our site, but it is used to help pay the bills for the hosting services and to help add a little extra to our investors for backing, so on the days we do not have new investments we are still adding coins up to be added to their staking wallets. It was something extra we did for the investors because we had the hardware.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Gleb Gamow on March 16, 2015, 06:11:59 AM
I suggest you guys take a look at my last post where I 100% expose the lying sack of shit Leroy Fodor: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=990219.msg10787412#msg10787412


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Grinder on March 16, 2015, 09:02:43 AM
What's the point of beating around the bush? If it claims to do any kind of mining or trading and make a lot of money and is open for anyone to "invest" then it's a scam. It really is as easy as that. I can't even be bothered to figure out exactly how they do it anymore. Unfortunately the wishful thinkers on this forum will never learn, so the scams will continue to flourish.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: cyberpinoy on March 16, 2015, 10:10:07 AM
Gleb YOU prove nothing, You lie, you compare things unrelated to me, You assume I am associated with things that do not involve me, you copy sections of things that are not even mine, you keep bouncing about when I started in bitcoins and when I started in mining, you are an attention starving troll. the bottom line about your thread as you continue to dig and dig twist and twist and embellish, but at the end of the day the truth about your stupid thread

Your claim about me and wolvman being the same person DISPROVED
Your claim about KC and ME connected  DISPROVED
Your claim I lied about my bitcoin business ventures being lies DISPROVED
Your claim I offered you a cut for promoting my business DISPROVED
Your claim I deleted a cyberpinoy twitter account DISPROVED
Your claim my business is a SCAM  DISPROVED!!!!

I will not be baited by you any longer.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 16, 2015, 10:11:23 AM
PLease take this stakeminer shit elsewhere; its got nothing to do with cloudmining.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BombaUcigasa on March 16, 2015, 10:42:22 AM
In addition if anyone did deposit 40BTC we would have to do an investigation to the funds. A 40 BTC investment is very large for anyone to throw around and before we applied that amount to the pool where it could effect our other investors in a negative way, we would have to find any way possible that those funds are legit.
Lol, ok....

As with any Mining business there is always risk, No one in any of these business can ever guarantee you anything. If they do try to they are lieing.
Well, legitimate business can guarantee they actually buy miners with my equipment, demonstrated with invoices and supplier statement. They can also demonstrate they still own the miners by providing fresh coins or pool participation. In case of liquidation there should be legal support from their state of residence, court enforcement, liquidation of assets and so on. Bitmain for example offers voluntary liquidation of hardware assets if the contract is terminated.

This doesn't stop things like AMhash theft and run-away, or fake companies that only exist on a website they built to take your funds. You should start thinking about provable guarantees for your clients...

Anyway, what you do is cloud staking, not mining. Puppet is in his rights to maintain his rules on this thread.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: suchmoon on March 16, 2015, 02:37:45 PM
This image actually shows  something

http://i57.tinypic.com/vzbt01.jpg

Wow - a screenshot! Do you have one with more money on it?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Mabsark on March 17, 2015, 09:18:26 PM
Here's definitive proof that ClearHash.Net is a ponzi. There also seems to be a clear link to Eobot.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=994246.0


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: flyingplows on March 17, 2015, 11:02:53 PM
MiningSweden, how about rating this one https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=979103 ?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Mabsark on March 17, 2015, 11:23:48 PM
MiningSweden, how about rating this one https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=979103 ?


The payments trace back to BTC Guild at least.

13VeGaUy7etLcwJe3mbYxkEEDJfZYsu2Ca (Payout address) < 14u1finZobAPzZHSDt1ZAoLfRWuBVcaNkV < 1HqMYmjsYyAsEf8papVQLFU48BbNa2eiA4 < 1K1LV33CaKmrh6gqQVVArtHCyeugN8hw9S < 14cZMQk89mRYQkDEj8Rn25AnGoBi5H6uer (BTC Guild)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Superhitech on March 18, 2015, 03:54:01 PM
MiningSweden, how about rating this one https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=979103 ?


The payments trace back to BTC Guild at least.

13VeGaUy7etLcwJe3mbYxkEEDJfZYsu2Ca (Payout address) < 14u1finZobAPzZHSDt1ZAoLfRWuBVcaNkV < 1HqMYmjsYyAsEf8papVQLFU48BbNa2eiA4 < 1K1LV33CaKmrh6gqQVVArtHCyeugN8hw9S < 14cZMQk89mRYQkDEj8Rn25AnGoBi5H6uer (BTC Guild)

So does that mean they are actually mining? Is BTC Guild their mining pool?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Mabsark on March 18, 2015, 04:16:58 PM
MiningSweden, how about rating this one https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=979103 ?


The payments trace back to BTC Guild at least.

13VeGaUy7etLcwJe3mbYxkEEDJfZYsu2Ca (Payout address) < 14u1finZobAPzZHSDt1ZAoLfRWuBVcaNkV < 1HqMYmjsYyAsEf8papVQLFU48BbNa2eiA4 < 1K1LV33CaKmrh6gqQVVArtHCyeugN8hw9S < 14cZMQk89mRYQkDEj8Rn25AnGoBi5H6uer (BTC Guild)

So does that mean they are actually mining? Is BTC Guild their mining pool?

Yes and Yes.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Sine(X) on March 21, 2015, 09:14:56 AM
http://www.newsbtc.com/2015/03/20/an-overview-of-the-current-state-of-bitcoin-cloud-mining/

"But even in these extremely competitive times, there are some companies willing to stand tall:

1) Bitcoin Cloud Services – While other companies were busy contemplating ways to cut down on their expenses, Bitcoin Cloud Services rewarded its customers with lucrative discounts for a week. The company announced the “1st Year Anniversary Discounts” this month.

2) CloudHashing – Even though the most trusted cloud mining company is taking a step back in increasing its market presence, it has no plans to shut down its shop. The company’s website is still offering hashing power to those interested in mining the cryptocurrency.

3) Hashop.io – Comparatively a small player in the Bitcoin cloud mining business, Hashop is still welcoming customers who wish to become miners.

4,5) Other mentionable names in the industry are Genesis Mining and ZEUSHASH.com"

Wow.. What is a shame advertise of scammers..! And where is Hashnest and Bit-X?
I thought newbtc is a respected resource.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BombaUcigasa on March 21, 2015, 09:59:27 AM
Wow.. What is a shame advertise of scammers..! And where is Hashnest and Bit-X?
I thought newbtc is a respected resource.
Give them 2 BTC and they'll publish anything...


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: AirWolf on March 22, 2015, 01:13:51 PM
Puppet, you hypocrite and accomplice, bear the shame and guilt to have misled many people that truly believed in your word, and you will bear that forever if you have a little decency on you.

The least you could do is return the tips the people has sent to you, including mine.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Puppet on March 22, 2015, 04:16:02 PM
Dont confuse your inability to read with me misleading anyone. Nothing I wrote about AMhash was or is incorrect. Anyone who trusted and followed my advice has not lost a satoshi.

And coming from someone who grossly insulted anyone warning pbmining customers, who proclaimed to have gotten 170 BTC from that scam, its a bit rich to accuse me of anything.

Oh, and your gigantic $5 or whatever donation Ill gladly donate to all miners as a transaction fee whenever I feel like syncing my wallet again, but there is no chance in hell Im sending you a satoshi.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BombaUcigasa on March 22, 2015, 05:10:39 PM
Puppet, you hypocrite and accomplice, bear the shame and guilt to have misled many people that truly believed in your word, and you will bear that forever if you have a little decency on you.
What did he do? Claim a specific operation was illegitimate and that turned to be honest?


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on March 22, 2015, 06:17:18 PM
Exactly. kryptologika.com is a one of them.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: shulio on March 22, 2015, 07:40:49 PM
Wanted to share my experience with HashOcean here. It is rare to see a positive message when it comes to any cloudhashing sites it seems. I am a customer of HashOcean . I tried them first to include doing the guaranteed refund process they offer. I invested 2btc total over a 3 week period. A week after I asked for a refund as I didn't like the service. My 2btc was back in my wallet within 24 hours of my request.
I am now reinvesting into the service and recommend people give them a try. If nothing else go get the 15kh/s they give away free and just let it collect you some btc slowly over time or let it build more hash .

[link]

Yes it is a referral link or you can simply go to: http;//hashocean.com if your not into using referral links.


This is more like asking people to join the scam factory instead of giving them a review, and i found this very weird, why do you asked for a refund and then reinvest them back as you dont like their services?this is a very fake vouches and a ponzi is still a ponzi no matter if you actually gain profit from the site


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: BombaUcigasa on March 22, 2015, 09:14:57 PM
Exactly. kryptologika.com is a one of them.
Quote
Kryptologika          1+2+3+4+*          => */7 = Ponzi -> passthrough of AMhash which is defunct. Currently operating as fractional reserve/ponzi.
Quote
At the start, the maintenance fees have been as low at $0.11 per GH/s (denominated in Polish zloty) per month. The good news is that this is also changing for the benefit of the users, starting in September. A 2% reduction of fees was offered to Kryptologika users due to an increasing client base and availability of better pricing in China.
Quote
Kryptologika since the beginning has used many services always looking for the best prices. Before that we mined on our own equipment, at various stages used different providers.
Quote
Amhash problem does not affect kryptologika in a scale that would require suspending operations or any emergency communication.
Quote
So basically we are buying GH/s for 0.0012 and offering them at kryptologika making profits on the price difference and maintenance difference.
At the moment we have 4180.00 GH/s on hashie.co  
to verify that you have to enter my e-mail address here:
http://amhash.com/hashie/index.php
Quote
The remaining 382GH/s is still on hashnest as I was not able to sell all the GH/s there.
Quote
You see we have not promised to buy back at fixed prices should the shares be falling like stones. It is entirely up to our customers to decide.
Quote
So basically if you are buying shares in kryptologika you are also investing in physical silver.

This company is at a very high risk of ponzi default as I see the public discussions. They are 100% exposed. They just resell mining power, they don't seem to have actual miners. If hashnest goes down as well, they have 0 production. But hey, at least they have silver... which you purchased along with your share already ... or something...

So no, Kryptologika is ponzi as fuck!


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: alani123 on March 22, 2015, 10:48:03 PM
Puppet, you hypocrite and accomplice, bear the shame and guilt to have misled many people that truly believed in your word, and you will bear that forever if you have a little decency on you.
What did he do? Claim a specific operation was illegitimate and that turned to be honest?

Puppet's claims were actually spot on most of the times. He was really cautious with using the word "legit". I wish he could start updating OP again. :)


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: armedmilitia on March 22, 2015, 11:54:53 PM
Found another one. Don't touch it with a ten foot pole.
https://www.miningsweden.se (https://www.miningsweden.se)
Terrible website design too, the guy who came up with this can't spell.


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: waterpile on March 23, 2015, 12:25:03 AM
Found another one. Don't touch it with a ten foot pole.
https://www.miningsweden.se (https://www.miningsweden.se)
Terrible website design too, the guy who came up with this can't spell.

Its a scam in my opinion, there are people already claiming that they lost their money and ROI in just 45 days? LoL they invented a super miner..


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: sandy47bt on March 23, 2015, 05:14:13 AM
I just found another ponzi cloud mining
10percentbtc.com - Bitcoin Cloud Mining (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=998197.0)

It's obvious this site is scam / ponzi
But, some newbies might fall into this :(


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: Fiiasco on March 23, 2015, 06:11:55 AM
I just found another ponzi cloud mining
10percentbtc.com - Bitcoin Cloud Mining (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=998197.0)

It's obvious this site is scam / ponzi
But, some newbies might fall into this :(

Basically a copy of scrypt.cc:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=978533.msg10681523#msg10681523


Title: Re: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Post by: l3sny on March 23, 2015, 08:21:05 AM
Quote
This company is at a very high risk of ponzi default as I see the public discussions. They are 100% exposed. They just resell mining power, they don't seem to have actual miners. If hashnest goes down as well, they have 0 production. But hey, at least they have silver... which you purchased along with your share already ... or something...

So no,