Bitcoin Forum

Hello bitcoiners,

22/06 The bonds are now listed on GLBSE https://glbse.com/asset/view/CANMINE (https://glbse.com/asset/view/CANMINE).

I would like to revive my mining bonds offering taking in to account the new ASIC development.
As you may know, I'm betting heavily against the biggest mining bonds on the market. In my COOP ASIC thread I received suggestion that the mining bonds who presently pay dividents are better than the future bonds. So, I offer you the one and only mining bond with ASIC safety net.

15000 bonds will be sold valued at 0.3 BTC each. Each coupon will be worth 1Mh/s.
The payments will be done from my 15Gh/s mining farm. I intend to start doing payments next Monday after IPO.

From the amount I raise, a third of it will stay in an open deposit making 1% weekly. When BFL or other ASIC producer starts taking preorders we will use the money to buy ASIC equipment. At the moment I receive the ASICS and I put them online, the bond will be upgraded with the exact capacity our reserve fund has bought.

I reserve the option to repurchase bonds at 105% of the highest traded price over the last 15 days.

Note: This investment bear risks! Do not buy bonds with money you can't afford to lose.

Now to the good things: Earlier adopters have chance to better returns until the tehnolgoy gets widespread. I'm sure BFL will give top delivery priority to cash orders, not to upgrades on which other operators base their offers.

Suggestions and advice are always welcome!

Now I have references!

- fulfilled mining contract for amazingrando
- my forsale thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=85180.msg938864#msg938864
- some other references: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87780.0

Thank you.

Constructive criticism highly appreciated!

Thank you for being realistic. This is one of only a small handful of posts I have read from current BFL product owners that actually makes sense from a business prospective, regardless of how unfair it may or may not be to those customers.
thank you for that refreshing outlook on reality.
bitlane.

Let's go up!

The question for potential investors is pretty clear. Do you think half-dividends (compared to YABMC ATM) for 16-32 weeks is a cost worth ~26x the mining bond's original hashing power once ASICs are in the wild and the block reward halves?

Why half divident of YABMC?
Yes, the answer to this question can bring us a lot of BTC.

YABMC is for 1 MH/s as well and is trading for .15-.18 per bond (was looking poised to hit .1/bond just an hour or two ago), ATM. Since CANMINE would be ~2x the price per MH/s (until upgrade), that's effectively half the dividends you'd get with 100BTC worth of YABMC if that person went with CANMINE.

Since I reserve .10BTC per bond for ASIC buying, the real cost is just .20BTC per 1MH/s. If the majority of bond holders no longer want to upgrade to ASIC, they can get 0.10BTC returned plus 1% weekly return, further reducing the initial bond cost. I agree that this is a gamble, but I believe at the moment is the best on the market.

So the question is: Will you Kluge invest in my bond?

Up.

What shares? You are issuing bonds, not stock!

If you like to make this bond even remotely interesting, fix part of the coupon and let part of it float, based on Mh/s.
Make it even more serious, add a fixed price and the date, when your bonds mature aka date and price you buy back all the bonds.
This is how bonds are usually issued. This perpetual garbage, with floating call price and what not, has to die :)

If you really want to issue a proper perpetual bond, fix the call price and set a reasonable call protection (date before bonds can not be called).

Let me ask this. Will you lend me money on similar terms like this perpetual garbage that floats around in GLBSE? Something like this: I'll pay you a part of what ever I can earn from the money you gave me and I'll pay you back the loan when it has become worthless (coupon payments are close to 0 an nobody wants to hold the bond any more)? Pay pack the loan when? Oh, when ever I feel like :)
Will you lend me money on those terms?

BTW, In case of liquidation, bond owners come fist and you have to pay them before stock holders get anything. This also means you have to buy back all the bonds. Debt (bond, perpetual or not) must be taken care of first.

Hi,

I surely wish I can offer what you are looking for, but I can't. What I can offer is a chance to be an early adaptor of ASIC tehnology, and getting some dividents while waiting for it.

Thanks.

And how exactly is this ASIC upgrade going to benefit me, as a bond holder? Lets say that diff keeps going up at average 8% per months for next 6 months and then maybe at 3% for the following 6 months and the bond coupon is what ever 1 Mh can mine.

The Mh/s bond value will be upgraded with the minig capacity provided by a third of the capital I get from the bonds sale. So the Mh/s value of the bond can go up 10 times more, I do not know for sure until BFL makes a complete announcement. Do not forget about the potential advantage of the earliest adaptors.
Don't ask me about future difficulty, I can't answer this.

I must be missing something here but where is that written in your contract?


Let me rephrase my question: And how exactly is this ASIC upgrade going to benefit me, as a bond holder, if the bond coupon is "what ever 1 Mh/s can mine at difficulty X when the div is calculated".

Everything I told you is on the top post and it will be my contract with the bond holders.
I get it, you don't trust me and it is OK, please do not invest with me.

Assuming that the reserve fund could buy a 1Th rig, my 1 Mh bond will worth 66,6 Mh by then?

Yes, it will.

The bonds are now on GLBSE.

Thank you.

As you can see, I'm fully verified with GLBSE.

Thank you.

First divident will be paid on Monday.

Do not get me wrong, I am not trying to make your life hard or discourage you. 

How are you planning to sell 1MH/s bFRN (bastardised Floating Rate Notes - no spread) at 0.3BTC when rest of the market pays approximately 0.18 BTC per 1MH/s? Unless some greedy miners burn downs few TH worth of mining farms, difficulty probably keeps creeping up. Guess what happens to to the price of 1 MH/s bFRN?

Because FRN are also called "floaters", I'll start calling perpetual bitcoin floaters as "Turd(s)". Not only your bFRN, all of them!

What do you think, how long will it take for the first ASIC to actually show up and how long will it take for you to get your hands on one? 6 months? 9? A year?
As you and others probably have realized, up to that beautiful day,  your bFRN's (Turds from now on) are just 1MH/s Turds. Nothing more, nothing less. There are plenty of better priced Turds out there, floating happily around in the GLBSE river.

I'll give you friendly advise: Figure out how to make your "turds" attractive so they can withstand the future rise of diff  and you will have all the investors you need. Hold on, I did make that recommendation earlier. ;) 0.3BTC for 1MH/s is far from interesting in current conditions, not even with the pipe dream about the ASICS added as a sweetener on top of it.

PS! Read some books or websites about financial instruments. This will give you a better ideas how debt and equity markets are working and how, why and when different instruments are actually used. Also, it will help you understand wtf I am talking about. ;)

If BFL is serious and keeps up their promise this time 'round (they acknowledged all that went wrong with the current singles, so that is an encouraging start) then we will see the first ASIC in the wild in less than 4 months.... making all of the NON-upgradable mining bonds out there obsolete.

I'm not advocating buying into this one, as I don't like any of the mining bonds out there

Ciuciu is in the process of listing a mining COOP on GLBSE which is in my mind a much better place to put your money.... pool your BTC together with others to be able to afford an ASIC 1 TH/s beast.... and hope this COOP will be amongst the first to get their hands on it....

In the mean time you are better off putting your money with one of the high-yielding borrowing schemes.... no hashing can beat 6.9% (Payb.tc) per week, compounded interest.... especially not when your hashing power depends on the pre-order queue at BFL ;)

While I agree with some of your views, I've never seen you lecturing in the GIGAMINING, BITBOND or YABMC thread. Maybe you should go also there, that people really need yor advice!

Those Turds area all done deals and there is nothing anyone can do to fix them. Who knows, maybe diff drops and the prices recover. Everything is possible. In this case, you are back in business but people have started to understand, that perpetual Turds are only good for the issuer.
You have, or actually had, a good chance to change your IPO in to a competitively priced success story. You choose not to and now you are acting all hurt and what not. Sorry mate, but I am not your enemy here :)

Really, I'm not hurt at all. At this moment, I believe is better for me if the bonds do not sale.
All I'm doing is offer people options. See my 2% deposits offering or the ASIC COOP.
I count on you when GIGAMINING will offer new bonds to be there for us, the consumers!