Bitcoin Forum

Economy => Speculation => Topic started by: SamTsuedo on December 10, 2014, 09:36:26 PM



Title: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: SamTsuedo on December 10, 2014, 09:36:26 PM
People, you need a reality check. Most of you here are holding to a few BTC expecting to become millionaires some day. You are in a collective mass delusion - about 95% of you here.

Satoshi Nakamoto stated himself that with BTC there will be no middle way - it will absord the whole world's economy which is estimated to be around $100 trillion including the black markets. If this does not happen BTC will be literally worthless - not even half a cent that it started at.

Bitcoin has been around since 2009 , so we are entering the 6th year of its existence. How many years would it take for bitcoin to absorb the total global economy? 50 years ? 100 years ? I doesn't matter because it was just another fad like myspace with a limited lifespan - that opened the social media to the mainstream and gave us twitter and facebook. Bitcoin's historical significance will be that it launched the concept of crypto currency to the mainstream. It will not be worth $10,000 or $100,000 dollars anytime soon (read: never).

So those of you who are still in delusional states holding the BTC you bought at $700 or $900 dollars, cut your loses and get away as fast as you can. November 2013 was the bubble which will never repeat again. All this talk about ETF is rubbish, because it is already calculated into the price.

The time is running out for BTC , and I am 90% certain it will be worthless before 2020. It has accomplished its task - crypto currency is mainstream.

Those smart enough know that the only real purpose of BTC right now is as a vehicle for transaction of fiat money, without being exposed to the scrutiny of the government checks and the global banking system, they understand that bitcoin is not a commodity, not a store of value, and it never was - to them it doesn't matter if the price of one BTC is $1 or $100,000. It doesn't change anything.

Some of you are so emotionally attached to your stack of bitcoins that you will react in a violent emotional outrage at my post. Those of you who are more stable are starting to realize what the score is, and no mate your 10 BTC or your 100 BTC stack will not make you a $ millionaire, might as well go to Vegas and try your hand at becoming a millionaire there. You have better chances.

Sam


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: newIndia on December 10, 2014, 09:40:08 PM
Repeat Telecast :)


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: cakir on December 10, 2014, 09:44:28 PM
Is Mastercard's Executive with us?
It looks like it, http://www.coindesk.com/mastercard-executive-argues-bitcoin-cant-trusted/

Well, first of all I'm using bitcoin as a currency that I don't have any limitations. For example if I leave my country for a vacation or etc, Foreign banks charges me a lot for a few bucks to spend on vacation. Also I can't carry a lot fiat with me...

But I can sell my bitcoin for fiat in a foreign country without paying any charges etc (in person of course).

But I'm agreeing with you on one topic; "bitcoin shouldn't be seen as a solid investment opportunity".


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 10, 2014, 09:45:25 PM
I agree with almost everything in the OP, except I am leaning more towards there will be another bubble in Bitcoin after bottoming below $200 in 2015. As I have explained in the Mad Max thread, until 2032 we are in a 51.6 year wave with peaking Public (government compatible) assets, e.g. sovereign bonds and Public pensions, and a move towards Private assets. The next 4.3 year wave of that overall wave will begin Oct. 2015, so that is when gold and Bitcoin will start to move up again. Bitcoin could perhaps move up 10X or perhaps at most 100X from $100ish to at most say $10,000.

Now it is somewhat possible that another crypto-currency could compete with Bitcoin, but that is a risky bet.

Bitcoin will be integrated into the government approved systems (e.g. KYC know your customer), but at the same time the bankrupt national government systems will be torn down and global or regional monetary systems will replace them after 2032, when btw China and Asia will be the new financial center of the world.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: lyth0s on December 10, 2014, 09:50:07 PM
People, you need a reality check. Most of you here are holding to a few BTC expecting to become millionaires some day. You are in a collective mass delusion - about 95% of you here.

Satoshi Nakamoto stated himself that with BTC there will be no middle way - it will absord the whole world's economy which is estimated to be around $100 trillion including the black markets. If this does not happen BTC will be literally worthless - not even half a cent that it started at.

Bitcoin has been around since 2009 , so we are entering the 6th year of its existence. How many years would it take for bitcoin to absorb the total global economy? 50 years ? 100 years ? I doesn't matter because it was just another fad like myspace with a limited lifespan - that opened the social media to the mainstream and gave us twitter and facebook. Bitcoin's historical significance will be that it launched the concept of crypto currency to the mainstream. It will not be worth $10,000 or $100,000 dollars anytime soon (read: never).

So those of you who are still in delusional states holding the BTC you bought at $700 or $900 dollars, cut your loses and get away as fast as you can. November 2013 was the bubble which will never repeat again. All this talk about ETF is rubbish, because it is already calculated into the price.

The time is running out for BTC , and I am 90% certain it will be worthless before 2020. It has accomplished its task - crypto currency is mainstream.

Those smart enough know that the only real purpose of BTC right now is as a vehicle for transaction of fiat money, without being exposed to the scrutiny of the government checks and the global banking system, they understand that bitcoin is not a commodity, not a store of value, and it never was - to them it doesn't matter if the price of one BTC is $1 or $100,000. It doesn't change anything.

Some of you are so emotionally attached to your stack of bitcoins that you will react in a violent emotional outrage at my post. Those of you who are more stable are starting to realize what the score is, and no mate your 10 BTC or your 100 BTC stack will not make you a $ millionaire, might as well go to Vegas and try your hand at becoming a millionaire there. You have better chances.

Sam

Cryptocurrency is mainstream? LOL

By the way, Facebook was founded in 2004, it didn't even have positive cash flow until 2009 (5 years later!). As of January 2014 they still had ONLY 1.2 billion active users (10 years later!) with a world population of about 8 billion....

"Easy" tech takes about 6 years for adoption. Bitcoin as of right now is "difficult" tech in many regards. Either way we haven't even reached 6 years yet. bitcoin's future is bright.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: moriartybitcoin on December 10, 2014, 09:51:01 PM
 'If this does not happen BTC will be literally worthless - not even half a cent that it started at. '

That's BULLSHIT. Bitcoin was born on the darknet and on the darknet it may remain if mass adoption doesn't come to fruition. 

Nonetheless, as a payment service for tech companies and drug vendors, Bitcoin would still retain plenty of value .. it just won't soar to the astronomical heights that people are predicting from mass adoption.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: SamTsuedo on December 10, 2014, 09:56:43 PM
'If this does not happen BTC will be literally worthless - not even half a cent that it started at. '

That's BULLSHIT. Bitcoin was born on the darknet and on the darknet it may remain if mass adoption doesn't come to fruition. 

Nonetheless, as a payment service for tech companies and drug vendors, Bitcoin would still retain plenty of value .. it just won't soar to the astronomical heights that people are predicting from mass adoption.

The price is irrelevant , do you understand that? The only value it has is as a vehicle for supposedly anonymous fiat transactions - but even this is exposed as not being 100% true. We all know why all those dark alts started emerging this year, because BTC does not provide 100% anonymous transactions. It is very hard to track them, but not impossible and with enough manpower and resources certain entities (read: CIA) can track you down.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: NarC on December 10, 2014, 09:59:49 PM
Why does bitcoin need to: "absorb the total global economy"  ? Credit cards don't account for the global economy and still are successful.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 10, 2014, 10:02:26 PM
By the way, Facebook was founded in 2004, it didn't even have positive cash flow until 2009 (5 years later!). As of January 2014 they still had ONLY 1.2 billion active users (10 years later!)

Facebook was launched to the public Sept. 2006 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook#Service_available_to_the_general_public).  Bitcoin also had a period before its Jan 2009 launch wherein it was tested by a smaller group. So thus Facebook is only 8 years old as a public service and has 1.2 billion users. Bitcoin is nearing 6 years old as a public service has about about 1000X less users. Sorry there is no comparison.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: DannyHamilton on December 10, 2014, 10:02:48 PM
Belongs in Speculation subforum.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 10, 2014, 10:05:18 PM
Belongs in Speculation subforum.

Trying to hide this?

No specific price was speculated in the OP. It discussion about scaling which is not a speculation topic.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: SamTsuedo on December 10, 2014, 10:05:42 PM
Why does bitcoin need to: "absorb the total global economy"  ? Credit cards don't account for the global economy and still are successful.

If you had done you research about bitcoin, you would know that is an almost exact quote of Satoshi Nakamoto, and one of the most famous ones.

That is not me making this stuff up. Just paraphrasing the man who created bitcoin.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: SamTsuedo on December 10, 2014, 10:08:11 PM
Belongs in Speculation subforum.

Trying to hide this?

No specific price was speculated. It discussion about scaling which is not a speculation topic.

Yeah, some people here are afraid of the open debates and will only support the post that are in alignment with their almost religious views. I do not have anything personal against bitcoin and have been dealing with it for 2 years now, I just feel it is time to state the obvious, and debate it as men, not blind worshipers.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Amph on December 10, 2014, 10:11:54 PM
a man can dream right?

let us dream


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 10, 2014, 10:12:01 PM
Let's talk about the reason most people must use Bitcoin?

They must use Facebook, because that is where their friends and family are.

So what is the reason they must use Bitcoin? I haven't been able to find a reason. In all my years of successfully marketing and programming million user software, I know you don't get there without a compelling use case for your product.

What we have here is a bunch of delusional men, thinking they can get rich quick while fighting evil in the monetary system. In short, a massive delusion without a use case.

If I suggest anonymity or decentralized derivatives to actually give use cases, the delusion men attack my ideas. Sigh. Thus competing with Bitcoin is a possibility, although a risky bet.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Sampey on December 10, 2014, 10:14:34 PM
So what is the reason they must use Bitcoin? I haven't been able to find a reason.

Because you haven't understand Bitcoin. Very Simple.  ;)


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 10, 2014, 10:15:31 PM
So what is the reason they must use Bitcoin? I haven't been able to find a reason.

Because you haven't understand Bitcoin. Very Simple.  ;)

I understand Bitcoin better than all of you do.

Any more unsubstantiated noise you want to add to this thread?


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: SamTsuedo on December 10, 2014, 10:17:25 PM
a man can dream right?

let us dream

Well, you can dream all you want buddy, just don't forget that you gotta wake up sooner or later and face the reality.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Sampey on December 10, 2014, 10:17:31 PM
So what is the reason they must use Bitcoin? I haven't been able to find a reason.

Because you haven't understand Bitcoin. Very Simple.  ;)

I understand Bitcoin better than all of you do.

Troll. LOL  ;D
No time to loose with you sorry.  ;)

Let this thread go second page......


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: DannyHamilton on December 10, 2014, 10:17:41 PM
Attempts to predict whether bitcoin will increase or decrease in exchange rate belong in speculation subforum.

holding to a few BTC expecting to become millionaires

estimated to be around $100 trillion including the black markets. If this does not happen BTC will be literally worthless - not even half a cent that it started at.

It will not be worth $10,000 or $100,000 dollars

bought at $700 or $900 dollars, cut your loses

November 2013 was the bubble which will never repeat

it is already calculated into the price.

it will be worthless before 2020.

Sure looks like a discussion about price to me.

I'm not trying to "hide" anything.  If I was, I'd say that the topic should be deleted.  I'm just suggesting that it would better fit in a different sub forum.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 10, 2014, 10:20:18 PM
Danny, looks like most of that was a claimed quote of Satoshi, so that is a historical accuracy discussion among other things.

He is not giving price speculation, rather he is arguing that Bitcoin is dead or not scaling and there is massive cheerleading and delusion. I have argued upthread that Bitcoin is not dead[1], but I have agreed with him that there is a problem with delusional cheerleading.

[1] Speculation bubbles don't die usually on the first or second bubble but rather on the third one when the retail public moves in. When everyone has access to Bitcoin via Paypal, there can be a another larger bubble involving grandmas and women too. So we can hurt the most people. Speculation bubbles need to hurt many people as possible before they finally die. Bitcoin has no wide use case a currency. But it does have a wide use case as a Ponzi-like (not exactly Ponzi but similar outcome) speculation, where everyone rushes into buy so the Windlevoss twins can cash out with massive profits.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: SamTsuedo on December 10, 2014, 10:21:15 PM
Attempts to predict whether bitcoin will increase or decrease in exchange rate belong in speculation subforum.

holding to a few BTC expecting to become millionaires

estimated to be around $100 trillion including the black markets. If this does not happen BTC will be literally worthless - not even half a cent that it started at.

It will not be worth $10,000 or $100,000 dollars

bought at $700 or $900 dollars, cut your loses

November 2013 was the bubble which will never repeat

it is already calculated into the price.

it will be worthless before 2020.

Sure looks like a discussion about price to me.

I'm not trying to "hide" anything.  If I was, I'd say that the topic should be deleted.  I'm just suggesting that it would better fit in a different sub forum.

If you see this as a discussion about the price, well I can't help you with that.

What we are debating here is the core purpose of bitcoin itself, and its existence , which is much larger subject than you would want to admit.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Lauda on December 10, 2014, 10:29:04 PM
If you see this as a discussion about the price, well I can't help you with that.

What we are debating here is the core purpose of bitcoin itself, and its existence , which is much larger subject than you would want to admit.
A moderator can help with that, and he's right.
No, nobody is debating anything. This is just you stating idiotic things, which shows us that your mind is very limited.

Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.
Now go contact WU and ask them how much that would cost.  ::)


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Sampey on December 10, 2014, 10:30:44 PM
Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.

Probably this is the right example for a money transfer with 40 cent fees

https://blockchain.info/tx/8f1d3a8ef6b2d4a25d2f499279e01518b4770819ccbc39a765c4c326170c61b3

81 Million Dollar Equivalent.  ;D ;D



Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 10, 2014, 10:32:11 PM
Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.

That is not a use case for the broad population. For the broad population there is no use case, other than as a get rich speculation.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: lyth0s on December 10, 2014, 10:32:14 PM
By the way, Facebook was founded in 2004, it didn't even have positive cash flow until 2009 (5 years later!). As of January 2014 they still had ONLY 1.2 billion active users (10 years later!)

Facebook was launched to the public Sept. 2006 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook#Service_available_to_the_general_public).  Bitcoin also had a period before its Jan 2009 launch wherein it was tested by a smaller group. So thus Facebook is only 8 years old as a public service and has 1.2 billion users. Bitcoin is nearing 6 years old as a public service has about about 1000X less users. Sorry there is no comparison.

"launched to public" in 2006? Bitcoin is just known to part of the public during the 2013 run up, does that make it a little over 1 year old? Or do we start with inception dates?

Even if we use your numbers with facebook taking 8 years to get 1.2 billion users, for such an EASY technology to use....expect bitcoin to take much longer...but that is Okay, I'm patient :)

"Sorry there is no comparison" -- Every part of your (and my) argument is a comparison ....are you just trying to troll?


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 10, 2014, 10:33:53 PM
By the way, Facebook was founded in 2004, it didn't even have positive cash flow until 2009 (5 years later!). As of January 2014 they still had ONLY 1.2 billion active users (10 years later!)

Facebook was launched to the public Sept. 2006 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook#Service_available_to_the_general_public).  Bitcoin also had a period before its Jan 2009 launch wherein it was tested by a smaller group. So thus Facebook is only 8 years old as a public service and has 1.2 billion users. Bitcoin is nearing 6 years old as a public service has about about 1000X less users. Sorry there is no comparison.

"launched to public" in 2006? Bitcoin is just known to part of the public during the 2013 run up

Launched means launched. Not everyone in the world knew about Facebook in 2006. Before 2006, it was not available to the public, only to closed groups.

Continue with your delusion.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Sampey on December 10, 2014, 10:34:13 PM
For the broad population there is no use case

False, totally false, and the problem is that you know it (i hope you understand at least this part of the BTC system).


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 10, 2014, 10:34:55 PM
For the broad population there is no use case

False, totally false, and the problem is that you know it (i hope you understand at least this part of the BTC system).

More unsubstantiated posts. You provide no argument.

Fact is that money transfer still requires the sender and the recipient to cash in and cash out in fiat. They still pay the fees.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: lyth0s on December 10, 2014, 10:37:49 PM
Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.

That is not a use case for the broad population. For the broad population there is no use case, other than as a get rich speculation.

Use cases?

1. Remittances -- very low fees compared to 10-15% of companies like western union
2. Self storage - Your accounts are not able to be "frozen" by 3rd parties
3. Portability -- You can travel to any country and immediately use your bitcoins without needing to transfer funds from one bank to another or pay additional currency exchange fees. If you tried to travel with a suitcase of cash you'd soon be broke/robbed
4. Not able to be used in Bail-ins: Example Cyprus stealing money from large account holders to bail-in their banks. And actually the G20 just agreed that bail-ins should be used before bail-outs by the IMF or the central banks....we are going to see a lot more bank failures and bail-ins in the near future
5. Known inflation/emission rate. : Take notice of argentina, or the QE in USA
6. the list goes on and on but if your too lazy to look them up then I'm going to stop here.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Lauda on December 10, 2014, 10:38:12 PM
For the broad population there is no use case

False, totally false, and the problem is that you know it (i hope you understand at least this part of the BTC system).

More unsubstantiated posts. You provide no argument.

Fact is that money transfer still requires the sender and the recipient to cash in and cash out in fiat. They still pay the fees.
The argument: are people who are currently on this forum/using bitcoin not part of the 'broad population'?
If not, are you trying to say that I'm intelligent or special in some way?  :)

Also: You found no flaw, since there is no flaw in it.


Probably this is the right example for a money transfer with 40 cent fees
https://blockchain.info/tx/8f1d3a8ef6b2d4a25d2f499279e01518b4770819ccbc39a765c4c326170c61b3

81 Million Dollar Equivalent.  ;D ;D
Exactly.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: bg002h on December 10, 2014, 10:39:06 PM
Future price predictions threads, up or down, always require at least a little hubris. This speculation thread is a bit above average though...

If the market knew what would happen, the price would be stable...


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: lyth0s on December 10, 2014, 10:42:14 PM
By the way, Facebook was founded in 2004, it didn't even have positive cash flow until 2009 (5 years later!). As of January 2014 they still had ONLY 1.2 billion active users (10 years later!)

Facebook was launched to the public Sept. 2006 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook#Service_available_to_the_general_public).  Bitcoin also had a period before its Jan 2009 launch wherein it was tested by a smaller group. So thus Facebook is only 8 years old as a public service and has 1.2 billion users. Bitcoin is nearing 6 years old as a public service has about about 1000X less users. Sorry there is no comparison.

"launched to public" in 2006? Bitcoin is just known to part of the public during the 2013 run up

Launched means launched. Not everyone in the world knew about Facebook in 2006. Before 2006, it was not available to the public, only to closed groups.

Continue with your delusion.

In 2009 bitcoin was not known to the world, just a small group of cryptoanalysts that were on a specific mailing list, and there was only 1 miner (satoshi). So then we shouldn't be stating that bitcoin was "launched" in 2009 according to your definition. If you don't realize that I'm done feeding you here.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Sampey on December 10, 2014, 10:43:03 PM
Quote
More unsubstantiated posts. You provide no argument.

No problem.

I Want to send some money to anyone in the world and be sure that this person receive them in near 10 minutes.

I want to send you some shit in anonymous way http://www.shitexpress.com/?language=en

I want to pay for porn undetected

I don't need to pay % fees to my bank only for transferring money (95% of FIAT are virtual, only data on computers)

My bank (or part of it) is inside my home/on my smarthone

No BCE/FED printing money and manage them, BTC is a transparent system, no trick.

I need to continue?  ;)

Quote
Fact is that money transfer still requires the sender and the recipient to cash in and cash out in fiat

False. Many people trade only with BTC, no need to change to Fiat.


Man..........i don't have understand NOTHING about BTC. But we are here to teach you.
Once upon a time i was a noob like you...........don't worry  ;D ;D


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 10, 2014, 10:43:13 PM
The argument: are people who are currently on this forum/using bitcoin not part of the 'broad population'?

Absolutely not. You are delusional males with goldbug tendencies (which is another delusion) and high tech envy (most of you can't build, so you pontificate (http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=3514)).

And you force yourself to use Bitcoin because of your delusion, even trying to find ways to force unnatural use it for your pregnant wife's term. And your use of Bitcoin as a speculation far outweighs your forced unnatural use of it as a transaction currency.

If not, are you trying to say that I'm intelligent or special in some way?  :)

Yes, you are delusional.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 10, 2014, 10:45:26 PM
I want to send you some shit in anonymous way http://www.shitexpress.com/?language=en

Bitcoin is not anonymous. I already had this argument with franky1 and I will not repeat it. Refer to my archive of posts.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Sampey on December 10, 2014, 10:48:19 PM
I want to send you some shit in anonymous way http://www.shitexpress.com/?language=en

Bitcoin is not anonymous. I already had this argument with franky1 and I will not repeat it. Refer to my archive of posts.

Yes it is, if you don't have a correspondence with Who I Am and my address i'm 100% anonymous.

Oh, i think you're the first/second account of SamTsuedo right? Lol  ;D ;D


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 10, 2014, 10:50:42 PM
Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.

That is not a use case for the broad population. For the broad population there is no use case, other than as a get rich speculation.

Use cases?

1. Remittances -- very low fees compared to 10-15% of companies like western union
2. Self storage - Your accounts are not able to be "frozen" by 3rd parties
3. Portability -- You can travel to any country and immediately use your bitcoins without needing to transfer funds from one bank to another or pay additional currency exchange fees. If you tried to travel with a suitcase of cash you'd soon be broke/robbed
4. Not able to be used in Bail-ins: Example Cyprus stealing money from large account holders to bail-in their banks. And actually the G20 just agreed that bail-ins should be used before bail-outs by the IMF or the central banks....we are going to see a lot more bank failures and bail-ins in the near future
5. Known inflation/emission rate. : Take notice of argentina, or the QE in USA
6. the list goes on and on but if your too lazy to look them up then I'm going to stop here.

1. Convert to and from fiat is the same or more fees, plus much more hassle in many scenarios.
2. Just wait until the KYC regulations on the miners come once most of the users are accessing Bitcoin through Paypal and Coincase and other centralized choke points.
3. You need to convert to fiat before you can use it.
4. Ditto #2.
5. Bitcoin can be debased just like gold was debased in the 1800s, via fractional reserve loans denominated in BTC. Gresham's Law insures the public will adopt the most debased unit.
6. The longer your list, the more proof you provide that I am correct.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: solitude on December 10, 2014, 10:53:43 PM
every time the price of BTC goes down, people like OP invade the forum with their bullshit.

Every time the price of BTC goes up, people like OP look at the price, seething with rage, foaming at the mouth, wishing they invested earlier.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 10, 2014, 10:57:13 PM
every time the price of BTC goes down, people like OP invade the forum with their bullshit.

Every time the price of BTC goes up, people like OP look at the price, seething with rage, foaming at the mouth, wishing they invested earlier.

Indeed. The use case of Bitcoin is a speculation bubble.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: NotLambchop on December 10, 2014, 11:01:06 PM
...
Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.
Now go contact WU and ask them how much that would cost.  ::)

WU?  You mean Western Union?  To transfer a billion dollars?  Only on this forum, folks ::)

My bank charges me nothing for the transactions I make, it costs me nothing to write a check, it costs me nothing to use a debit card.
So if this billion-dollar transfer is a payment for a BTCeanie BTCaby, it would cost me exactly 40 cents less than a BTC transfer.

So now you know.
https://i.imgur.com/HoNvUhG.gif


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: lyth0s on December 10, 2014, 11:02:13 PM
Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.

That is not a use case for the broad population. For the broad population there is no use case, other than as a get rich speculation.

Use cases?

1. Remittances -- very low fees compared to 10-15% of companies like western union
2. Self storage - Your accounts are not able to be "frozen" by 3rd parties
3. Portability -- You can travel to any country and immediately use your bitcoins without needing to transfer funds from one bank to another or pay additional currency exchange fees. If you tried to travel with a suitcase of cash you'd soon be broke/robbed
4. Not able to be used in Bail-ins: Example Cyprus stealing money from large account holders to bail-in their banks. And actually the G20 just agreed that bail-ins should be used before bail-outs by the IMF or the central banks....we are going to see a lot more bank failures and bail-ins in the near future
5. Known inflation/emission rate. : Take notice of argentina, or the QE in USA
6. the list goes on and on but if your too lazy to look them up then I'm going to stop here.

1. Convert to and from fiat is the same or more fees, plus much more hassle in many scenarios.
2. Just wait until the KYC regulations on the miners come once most of the users are accessing Bitcoin through Paypal and Coincase and other centralized choke points.
3. You need to convert to fiat before you can use it.
4. Ditto #2.
5. Bitcoin can be debased just like gold was debased in the 1800s, via fractional reserve loans denominated in BTC. Gresham's Law insures the public will adopt the most debased unit.
6. The longer your list, the more proof you provide that I am correct.

1. Pay with bitcoin you nerd.
2. Maybe they are initially buying bitcoin through a company like coinbase, but then just move it off coinbase. A smart bitcoiner would never leave a large amount of bitcoin on a centralized service, especially after the Mt. Gox problem
3. See #1. Are you mentally delayed? -- And if your argument is "well not everywhere accepts bitcoins and keeps them!" that is why were are in the adoption phase and I'm proud of that fact :D
4. Nope, you can never take someones bitcoin as a bail-in. If I could I'd own all of satoshi's coins right now :)
5. Yes there could be a fractional reserve and they would need a very small margin otherwise face quick collapse. But that still prevents endless money printing.
6. The more you argue the point, the more obvious it is that you know very little about bitcoin.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 10, 2014, 11:06:43 PM
Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.

That is not a use case for the broad population. For the broad population there is no use case, other than as a get rich speculation.

Use cases?

1. Remittances -- very low fees compared to 10-15% of companies like western union
2. Self storage - Your accounts are not able to be "frozen" by 3rd parties
3. Portability -- You can travel to any country and immediately use your bitcoins without needing to transfer funds from one bank to another or pay additional currency exchange fees. If you tried to travel with a suitcase of cash you'd soon be broke/robbed
4. Not able to be used in Bail-ins: Example Cyprus stealing money from large account holders to bail-in their banks. And actually the G20 just agreed that bail-ins should be used before bail-outs by the IMF or the central banks....we are going to see a lot more bank failures and bail-ins in the near future
5. Known inflation/emission rate. : Take notice of argentina, or the QE in USA
6. the list goes on and on but if your too lazy to look them up then I'm going to stop here.

1. Convert to and from fiat is the same or more fees, plus much more hassle in many scenarios.
2. Just wait until the KYC regulations on the miners come once most of the users are accessing Bitcoin through Paypal and Coincase and other centralized choke points.
3. You need to convert to fiat before you can use it.
4. Ditto #2.
5. Bitcoin can be debased just like gold was debased in the 1800s, via fractional reserve loans denominated in BTC. Gresham's Law insures the public will adopt the most debased unit.
6. The longer your list, the more proof you provide that I am correct.

1. Pay with bitcoin you nerd.
2. Maybe they are initially buying bitcoin through a company like coinbase, but then just move it off coinbase. A smart bitcoiner would never leave a large amount of bitcoin on a centralized service, especially after the Mt. Gox problem
3. See #1. Are you mentally delayed? -- And if your argument is "well not everywhere accepts bitcoins and keeps them!" that is why were are in the adoption phase and I'm proud of that fact :D
4. Nope, you can never take someones bitcoin as a bail-in. If I could I'd own all of satoshi's coins right now :)
5. Yes there could be a fractional reserve and they would need a very small margin otherwise face quick collapse. But that still prevents endless money printing.
6. The more you argue the point, the more obvious it is that you know very little about bitcoin.

Evidence of delusion. Thanks.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: dropt on December 10, 2014, 11:07:24 PM
Yes. We're with you Charlie. Future is bitcoin!

Sounds legit.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: franky1 on December 10, 2014, 11:12:38 PM
those arguing that bitcoin doesnt have a unique purpose that differs from other currencies.. please understand that FIAT no matter what country you live in, is the SAME!. it does not have any unique features differing each other.

so ask yourself if you can do everything with the dollar, that you can also do with a euro... why isnt everyone using the euro.

mastercard, american express and visa are all the same. the method of payment is no different. so ask yourself if everything can be done with mastercard, why does visa, american express exist.

western union.. blah blah... why does moneygram exist.
t-mobile blah blah.. why does vodaphone exist.
pepsi blah blah why does cocacola exist.
Mcdonalds blah blah why does burgerking exist.
budweiser blah blah why does miller/coors exist.

again dollar blah blah why does euro, pound, yuan, ruble, mpesa, peso, exist.

staying on the currency topic lets talk about global reach. the american dollar has ben literally FIGHTING for global dominance for well over 100 years, but only 320million people use it daily. thats not even 5% world adoption, so anyone defending and trying to talk people into staying with the dollar.. well it is obvious that they have an agenda..

when you realise that people prefer choices and freedoms then you will understand that bitcoin gives an extra choice.

bitcoin is actually far different than what fiat is, in many many ways. bitcoin also offers abilities and strengths that gold cannot offer. it offers many abilities that paypal, mastercard, western union, bank accounts, bank notes cannot offer. and im not even talking about anonymity.

i personally do not care about the price.. it has been days since i checked the price, and even though i hold lots of bitcoins, the price rises or drops do not matter to me one bit. as i can see the potential and future of bitcoin. that said if bitcoin was to drop to 1c i could loose hundreds of thousands of dollars of value.. but that does not phase me as im not in it for the fiat wealth or fiat retirement. once you get passed measuring bitcoin vs fiat and actually use bitcoin properly you will see what it can do for many people. without actually requiring world domination.

bitcoin doesnt need billions of users to be a success, like i said the dollar only has 320million regular users and people hail the dollar as a success.. (i am laughing while writing that statement as i think american government is delusional about its power)

lastly if anyone is shouting that bitcoin is dead and will only be worth 1cent soon. how about you sell me 1bitcoin for 1c now and put your money where your mouth is. i dare you to sell me 1000 bitcoins for $10. until you are willing to do such a thing, your points are meaningless.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: solitude on December 10, 2014, 11:14:05 PM
The argument: are people who are currently on this forum/using bitcoin not part of the 'broad population'?

Absolutely not. You are delusional males.

A superior math-based currency that can't be printed or counterfeited doesn't make us delusional.  Yes, the majority of bitcoin users are male.  Your point? When was the last time a majority of females ever accomplished anything whatsoever? Other than bullshit liberty-curtailing no-fun-allowed groups like MADD cunts


Men are superior to women in every way, shape and form.  Just like bitcoin is superior to every bullshit fiat currency.

If women could into math/technology or basic fucking individual freedoms, bitcoin would be a monster right now. 


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on December 10, 2014, 11:20:22 PM
Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.

That is not a use case for the broad population. For the broad population there is no use case, other than as a get rich speculation.

SWIFT has no broad use case either by that idiotic logic.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Lauda on December 10, 2014, 11:22:04 PM
...
Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.
Now go contact WU and ask them how much that would cost.  ::)

WU?  You mean Western Union?  To transfer a billion dollars?  Only on this forum, folks ::)

My bank charges me nothing for the transactions I make, it costs me nothing to write a check, it costs me nothing to use a debit card.
So if this billion-dollar transfer is a payment for a BTCeanie BTCaby, it would cost me exactly 40 cents less than a BTC transfer.

So now you know.
Stop trolling. I paid $25 to transfer $100 once via Western Union.
You pay a fee with banks as well, stop selling a fake story.

Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.

That is not a use case for the broad population. For the broad population there is no use case, other than as a get rich speculation.

SWIFT has no broad use case either by that idiotic logic.
Exactly.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 10, 2014, 11:25:03 PM
when you realise that people prefer choices and freedoms then you will understand that bitcoin gives an extra choice.

bitcoin is actually far different than what fiat is, in many many ways. bitcoin also offers abilities and strengths that gold cannot offer. it offers many abilities that paypal, mastercard, western union, bank accounts, bank notes cannot offer. and im not even talking about anonymity.

In theory yes Bitcoin offers autonomy.

The problem is it all breaks down at the choke point of the miners. Unfortunately.

But! To actually regulate the miners requires global cooperation of governments! So Bitcoin will force governments to accede to a global authority.

So yes, Bitcoin is unique and will have a role to play. But it will not achieve the outcome of the idealist delusion.

It will remain more of a speculation than a paradigm shift for transactions or decentralized finance, because for example to get fast transactions will require off chain, but off chain doesn't scale with Metcalf's Law, i.e. network effects are not the square of the number of users. Off chain fragments the userspace. Btw, this is a math argument, so make sure any rebuttal grasps that.

But Bitcoin is showing the way for an altcoin to provide what Bitcoin doesn't. This is the black swan possibility.


lastly if anyone is shouting that bitcoin is dead and will only be worth 1cent soon. how about you sell me 1bitcoin for 1c now and put your money where your mouth is. i dare you to sell me 1000 bitcoins for $10. until you are willing to do such a thing, your points are meaningless

I did not agree with that point of the OP. So I do not disagree with you on that point.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 10, 2014, 11:26:59 PM
Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.

That is not a use case for the broad population. For the broad population there is no use case, other than as a get rich speculation.

SWIFT has no broad use case either by that idiotic logic.

I said broad POPULATION use case. Can't you read?


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 10, 2014, 11:33:54 PM
The argument: are people who are currently on this forum/using bitcoin not part of the 'broad population'?

Absolutely not. You are delusional males.

A superior math-based currency that can't be printed or counterfeited doesn't make us delusional.  Yes, the majority of bitcoin users are male.  Your point?

You chopped off the part where I wrote goldbug delusion and high tech envy.

Your delusion is you grasp on to the slogans and concepts, without analysing the technical details which elucidate the delusion.

For example, goldbugs have never understood that gold was always a fiat, because the public can always loan fractional reserve units that are denominated in gold. And Gresham's Law states that bad money drives good money out-of-circulation, thus the more debased form of gold (or Bitcoin) will always drive the less debased form out-of-circulation.

As for math, see my prior post point about Metcalf's law and off chain. Etc, etc, etc. I have made so many math arguments that elucidated the delusion (in my archives and AnonyMint's archives), and I am not going to repeat them all again.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: NotLambchop on December 10, 2014, 11:37:49 PM
...
Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.
Now go contact WU and ask them how much that would cost.  ::)

WU?  You mean Western Union?  To transfer a billion dollars?  Only on this forum, folks ::)

My bank charges me nothing for the transactions I make, it costs me nothing to write a check, it costs me nothing to use a debit card.
So if this billion-dollar transfer is a payment for a BTCeanie BTCaby, it would cost me exactly 40 cents less than a BTC transfer.

So now you know.
Stop trolling. I paid $25 to transfer $100 once via Western Union.
You pay a fee with banks as well, stop selling a fake story.

Of course you did.  And I've paid $50 for a coke.  There are stupid ways of sending money, and they are expensive.  Western Union is not how normal fiat transactions are done.  Certainly not how a billion-dollar transaction would be done.  If you know someone who tried to send a billion dollars via WU, give me his addy--I got some Bitcoin to sell him :)

If your bank charges you for writing checks and using a debit card, I suspect you have stumbled upon a fiat equivalent of Neo Bee.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: exocytosis on December 10, 2014, 11:43:08 PM
Spot on, OP.

Of course, the cultists and bulltards will continue trying to lure in newbies to increase their own chance to make a profit on this MLM scheme. But there's no denying that Bitcoin will only go down in the long term, even if it somehow were able to perform another DCB to $400 or slightly above in the near to medium term.

However, I still think BTC will continue -- for several years -- having utility as a payment method on the deep web, for the purchase of illegal goods and services. But it doesn't need to be valued in the triple digits for that to be the case, and it'll most likely reach single digits sometime in 2015 or 2016 at the very latest. In the long term, another cryptocurrency (or a more advanced technology) will replace BTC as the dominant payment method on the deep web as well.



Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 10, 2014, 11:45:56 PM
Spot on, OP.

Of course, the cultists and bulltards will continue trying to lure in newbies to increase their own chance to make a profit on this MLM scheme. But there's no denying that Bitcoin will only go down in the long term, even if it somehow were able to perform another DCB to $400 or slightly above in the near to medium term.

However, I still think BTC will continue -- for several years -- having utility as a payment method on the deep web, for the purchase of illegal goods and services. But it doesn't need to be valued in the triple digits for that to be the case, and it'll most likely reach single digits sometime in 2015 or 2016 at the very latest. In the long term, another cryptocurrency (or a more advanced technology) will replace BTC as the dominant payment method on the deep web as well.

Check your logic. You are mixing your emotional feeling about a declining price with the reality that you see utility in the concept of a Bitcoin. Something doesn't line up in your brain.

On the next bubble, your emotions will shift in the other direction.

The OP's alleged quote of Satoshi is wrong about Bitcoin declining to 1 cent. Very wrong, regardless if Satoshi wrote that or not.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: exocytosis on December 10, 2014, 11:52:52 PM
Spot on, OP.

Of course, the cultists and bulltards will continue trying to lure in newbies to increase their own chance to make a profit on this MLM scheme. But there's no denying that Bitcoin will only go down in the long term, even if it somehow were able to perform another DCB to $400 or slightly above in the near to medium term.

However, I still think BTC will continue -- for several years -- having utility as a payment method on the deep web, for the purchase of illegal goods and services. But it doesn't need to be valued in the triple digits for that to be the case, and it'll most likely reach single digits sometime in 2015 or 2016 at the very latest. In the long term, another cryptocurrency (or a more advanced technology) will replace BTC as the dominant payment method on the deep web as well.

Check your logic. You are mixing your emotional feeling about a declining price with the reality that you see utility in the concept of a Bitcoin. Something doesn't line up in your brain.

On the next bubble, your emotions will shift in the other direction.

The OP's alleged quote of Satoshi is wrong about Bitcoin declining to 1 cent. Very wrong, regardless if Satoshi wrote that or not.


Nope. I'm seeing utility, but declining utility. Technically superior cryptocurrencies will beat Bitcoin as payment methods on the deep web eventually. Bitcoin will continue losing value, but it won't be totally worthless anytime soon. Even ten years from now, it might still be valued at more than a dollar a piece, although I doubt it.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Bit_Happy on December 10, 2014, 11:53:27 PM
People, you need a reality check...

BTC could go to $50 (for example) and it is still doing really well compared to a few years ago.
~5 or 6 years is still new, so to say otherwise is simply not correct.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 10, 2014, 11:57:27 PM
Technically superior cryptocurrencies will beat Bitcoin as payment methods on the deep web eventually.

That is the black swan. We don't know if it will happen nor whether Bitcoin will adopt new features. I tend to agree with you that an altcoin could rise, except I can tell you that I have tried to develop an altcoin from scratch (totally new code base) and the amount of work seems to be beyond what I can accomplish as one developer (although a younger guy with better health or sufficiently focused group might be able to).

I don't agree with the declining utility, because Bitcoin can remain the reserve currency of the altcoins, so as altcoins grow Bitcoin gains utility. And other utility Bitcoin can gain, per plans of Paypal, etc.. I just think the other utility won't scale as fast as the utility as a speculation delusion.

Conceptually Bitcoin shows the way to the utility of decentralized autonomy. However the protocol as it stands now lacks the feature set to make that a reality. For me to go into the details of why I think this would require several pages of text. Sorry I been there, done that. I am tired.

Edit: the altcoin hope is mostly a delusion too, is what I am trying to say in that first paragraph above. Because there is far more to it than just being technically superior. There also has to be a compelling reason to switch. No altcoin is even close to achieving that. That is why I started to take caution about wasting my valuable man-hours trying to code something far beyond my production rate and for which the outcome is very dubious at best. However I continue to search for that idea that is a "no brainer". Btw, most of the dark coins are just nonsense technology, for example Darkcoin can be Sybil attacked on master nodes and Bitcoindark can be jammed. Cryptonote ring signatures do conceptually provide end-to-end principle of the internet but they as currently implemented are very inefficient and subject to Sybil attack driving the transaction fees very high. Etc, etc, etc. The technical details are far beyond what I can write here...


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: SamTsuedo on December 11, 2014, 01:03:39 AM
every time the price of BTC goes down, people like OP invade the forum with their bullshit.

Every time the price of BTC goes up, people like OP look at the price, seething with rage, foaming at the mouth, wishing they invested earlier.

Price has been going down for the past 12 months, if you haven't noticed by now. BTC is cca. 70% down from the high at the end of the 2013.

My post doesn't have anything to do with the price going down from 375 to 350 USD. If you think I am that someone could be that shallow well, there's nothing more I can say.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: SamTsuedo on December 11, 2014, 01:16:40 AM
those arguing that bitcoin doesnt have a unique purpose that differs from other currencies.. please understand that FIAT no matter what country you live in, is the SAME!. it does not have any unique features differing each other.

so ask yourself if you can do everything with the dollar, that you can also do with a euro... why isnt everyone using the euro.

mastercard, american express and visa are all the same. the method of payment is no different. so ask yourself if everything can be done with mastercard, why does visa, american express exist.

western union.. blah blah... why does moneygram exist.
t-mobile blah blah.. why does vodaphone exist.
pepsi blah blah why does cocacola exist.
Mcdonalds blah blah why does burgerking exist.
budweiser blah blah why does miller/coors exist.

again dollar blah blah why does euro, pound, yuan, ruble, mpesa, peso, exist.

staying on the currency topic lets talk about global reach. the american dollar has ben literally FIGHTING for global dominance for well over 100 years, but only 320million people use it daily. thats not even 5% world adoption, so anyone defending and trying to talk people into staying with the dollar.. well it is obvious that they have an agenda..

when you realise that people prefer choices and freedoms then you will understand that bitcoin gives an extra choice.

bitcoin is actually far different than what fiat is, in many many ways. bitcoin also offers abilities and strengths that gold cannot offer. it offers many abilities that paypal, mastercard, western union, bank accounts, bank notes cannot offer. and im not even talking about anonymity.

i personally do not care about the price.. it has been days since i checked the price, and even though i hold lots of bitcoins, the price rises or drops do not matter to me one bit. as i can see the potential and future of bitcoin. that said if bitcoin was to drop to 1c i could loose hundreds of thousands of dollars of value.. but that does not phase me as im not in it for the fiat wealth or fiat retirement. once you get passed measuring bitcoin vs fiat and actually use bitcoin properly you will see what it can do for many people. without actually requiring world domination.

bitcoin doesnt need billions of users to be a success, like i said the dollar only has 320million regular users and people hail the dollar as a success.. (i am laughing while writing that statement as i think american government is delusional about its power)

lastly if anyone is shouting that bitcoin is dead and will only be worth 1cent soon. how about you sell me 1bitcoin for 1c now and put your money where your mouth is. i dare you to sell me 1000 bitcoins for $10. until you are willing to do such a thing, your points are meaningless.

All of you are repeating angry phrases how bitcoin is convenient and cheap for money transactions. I never said that is the case, on the contrary. You are driving the discussion away from the main point, from the gist of my argument and that is a quote or a paraphrase of the Satoshi Nakamoto that Bitcoin will either absorb the total global economy which stands at $100 trillion now, or will cease to exist. Do you understand that the man who created Bitcoin is saying that there is no middle ground?

Do I have to repeat this one more time before any of you address it, instead of talking about 40 cents money transfer fee and other marginal stuff.

So again, the creator of Bitcoin has stated on record - written statement that BTC will either gobble up the whole of global economy or fail and cease to exist. The middle ground does not exist according to Satoshi Nakamoto. You may argue with me, but this is not me just making up things it is the quote / paraphrase of Satoshi's statement. This is one of the most important statements about bitcoin and yet everybody wants to avoid any talk about it.

I see that this thread has been moved to the Speculation section. I thought this forum was a bastion of free speech and expression not censorship , if you don't like what I am saying then refute it in an exact way and we can have a proper debate, using tactics such as these is very shady and it is a disgrace for this forum. I am sure Satoshi Nakamoto did not intend this forum to be a place of censorship and oppression of important debates.



Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Dilla on December 11, 2014, 01:29:01 AM
It doesn't have to absorb it all or be nothing. There are people who only use cash, won't use the internet, telephones, don't have a facebook, etc..It doesn't have to be a part of a lot of countries to succeed, just be used by a percentage of the population as a choice of payment. Just because Satoshi said it, doesn't make it true, it was just his personal opinion. Stop saying it like it's a scientific law.  This is just the start of Bitcoin. It will take years to develop and make more mainstream so the less techinically inclined people can use it and understand it. The sentiment of the forum right now is horrible. Yes, bears have been right this year, but they cannot predict the long term future of Bitcoin. Everyone needs to stop sh1tting on Bitcoin so people who google it don't come across so much negativity from people who are only trying to drive the price down and collect more coins for themselves. It scares people away and gives Bitcoin a bad name.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: SamTsuedo on December 11, 2014, 01:34:55 AM
It doesn't have to absorb it all or be nothing. There are people who only use cash, won't use the internet, telephones, don't have a facebook, etc..It doesn't have to be a part of a lot of countries to succeed, just be used by a percentage of the population as a choice of payment. Just because Satoshi said it, doesn't make it true, it was just his personal opinion. Stop saying it like it's a scientific law.  This is just the start of Bitcoin. It will take years to develop and make more mainstream so the less techinically inclined people can use it and understand it. The sentiment of the forum right now is horrible. Yes, bears have been right this year, but they cannot predict the long term future of Bitcoin. Everyone needs to stop sh1tting on Bitcoin so people who google it don't come across so much negativity from people who are only trying to drive the price down and collect more coins for themselves. It scares people away and gives Bitcoin a bad name.

Just because Satoshi said it, doesn't make it true, it was just his personal opinion.

You gotta be kidding me. This is the written statement by a man who created bitcoin. You need a head check buddy.



Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: nakaone on December 11, 2014, 01:38:24 AM
Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.

That is not a use case for the broad population. For the broad population there is no use case, other than as a get rich speculation.

Use cases?

1. Remittances -- very low fees compared to 10-15% of companies like western union
2. Self storage - Your accounts are not able to be "frozen" by 3rd parties
3. Portability -- You can travel to any country and immediately use your bitcoins without needing to transfer funds from one bank to another or pay additional currency exchange fees. If you tried to travel with a suitcase of cash you'd soon be broke/robbed
4. Not able to be used in Bail-ins: Example Cyprus stealing money from large account holders to bail-in their banks. And actually the G20 just agreed that bail-ins should be used before bail-outs by the IMF or the central banks....we are going to see a lot more bank failures and bail-ins in the near future
5. Known inflation/emission rate. : Take notice of argentina, or the QE in USA
6. the list goes on and on but if your too lazy to look them up then I'm going to stop here.

1. Convert to and from fiat is the same or more fees, plus much more hassle in many scenarios.
2. Just wait until the KYC regulations on the miners come once most of the users are accessing Bitcoin through Paypal and Coincase and other centralized choke points.
3. You need to convert to fiat before you can use it.
4. Ditto #2.
5. Bitcoin can be debased just like gold was debased in the 1800s, via fractional reserve loans denominated in BTC. Gresham's Law insures the public will adopt the most debased unit.
6. The longer your list, the more proof you provide that I am correct.

you sir may be a brilliant developer but horrible at economics - told you this at least four times this year ;). point 2-5 are very valid use cases for bitcoin. your arguments are may be reasonable for certain countries - but never on global scale.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: SamTsuedo on December 11, 2014, 01:50:03 AM
To whom it may concern:

This thread was moved from Bitcoin Discussion to Speculation after cca. 1 hour

Incidentally the thread titled "What will you do if bitcoin price fall down to $100 ?" has been in the Bitcoin Discussion section for almost 4 days.

What are you afraid of mods? Free speech ?


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Dilla on December 11, 2014, 02:19:22 AM
It doesn't have to absorb it all or be nothing. There are people who only use cash, won't use the internet, telephones, don't have a facebook, etc..It doesn't have to be a part of a lot of countries to succeed, just be used by a percentage of the population as a choice of payment. Just because Satoshi said it, doesn't make it true, it was just his personal opinion. Stop saying it like it's a scientific law.  This is just the start of Bitcoin. It will take years to develop and make more mainstream so the less techinically inclined people can use it and understand it. The sentiment of the forum right now is horrible. Yes, bears have been right this year, but they cannot predict the long term future of Bitcoin. Everyone needs to stop sh1tting on Bitcoin so people who google it don't come across so much negativity from people who are only trying to drive the price down and collect more coins for themselves. It scares people away and gives Bitcoin a bad name.

Just because Satoshi said it, doesn't make it true, it was just his personal opinion.

You gotta be kidding me. This is the written statement by a man who created bitcoin. You need a head check buddy.



He may have created it, but he also may have slept through ECON 101. The ALL OR NOTHING demise works on very few things. No currency is used COMPLETELY worldwide. Gold isn't used worldwide. That doesn't mean they store no value. Your thread probably got moved to Speculation since you hint at the future of Bitcoin with what "Satoshi's All or Nothing Law". I'm sure what Satoshi was meaning was that Bitcoin must have a large market cap to have faith in its value to succeed, not replace every single dollar. Stop being such a bear.  :D


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 11, 2014, 02:35:43 AM
point 2-5 are very valid use cases for bitcoin. your arguments are may be reasonable for certain countries - but never on global scale.

Never huh?

Like all those who said silver would never fall again below $17. Like all those who said Bitcoin wouldn't fall from $1000 to $350. Yeah I was predicting all those in public, I even publicly predicted the $48 top for silver 1 year before it occurred (http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article23786.html).

Sorry you are just hot air. I have an analysis record which speaks loud and clear.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: jaredboice on December 11, 2014, 02:39:06 AM
By the way, Facebook was founded in 2004, it didn't even have positive cash flow until 2009 (5 years later!). As of January 2014 they still had ONLY 1.2 billion active users (10 years later!)

Facebook was launched to the public Sept. 2006 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook#Service_available_to_the_general_public).  Bitcoin also had a period before its Jan 2009 launch wherein it was tested by a smaller group. So thus Facebook is only 8 years old as a public service and has 1.2 billion users. Bitcoin is nearing 6 years old as a public service has about about 1000X less users. Sorry there is no comparison.

Ummm I've been using facebook since 2004.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: jaredboice on December 11, 2014, 02:42:30 AM
Just added a couple users to the ignore list, including the OP

I use these trolling threads as opportunities to identify the really desperate shills
And I get them on the ignore list immediaty


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 11, 2014, 02:42:44 AM
By the way, Facebook was founded in 2004, it didn't even have positive cash flow until 2009 (5 years later!). As of January 2014 they still had ONLY 1.2 billion active users (10 years later!)

Facebook was launched to the public Sept. 2006 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook#Service_available_to_the_general_public).  Bitcoin also had a period before its Jan 2009 launch wherein it was tested by a smaller group. So thus Facebook is only 8 years old as a public service and has 1.2 billion users. Bitcoin is nearing 6 years old as a public service has about about 1000X less users. Sorry there is no comparison.

Ummm I've been using facebook since 2004.

Reading comprehension is very low in this forum. I was an early investor or user in some projects too. That doesn't change the fact that Facebook was not open to the general public until Sept 2006.

Just added a couple users to the ignore list, including the OP

I use these trolling threads as opportunities to identify the really desperate shills
And I get them on the ignore list immediaty

Forcing everyone to read about who is on your personal ignore list is pathetic posturing. Nobody cares. Stay on constructive discussion if you want to be relevant.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: dropt on December 11, 2014, 02:44:16 AM
Satoshi Nakamoto that Bitcoin will either absorb the total global economy which stands at $100 trillion now, or will cease to exist. Do you understand that the man who created Bitcoin is saying that there is no middle ground?


So again, the creator of Bitcoin has stated on record - written statement that BTC will either gobble up the whole of global economy or fail and cease to exist. The middle ground does not exist according to Satoshi Nakamoto. You may argue with me, but this is not me just making up things it is the quote / paraphrase of Satoshi's statement. This is one of the most important statements about bitcoin and yet everybody wants to avoid any talk about it.

Here's something to wrap your head around: people are fallible.  So what if S. Nakamoto made that statement, it doesn't make it a foregone conclusion.



Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Pecunia non olet on December 11, 2014, 03:00:19 AM
tl,dr

this thread nails it with the OP

crypto will not fail but bitcoin could become insignificant faster than you would like it to happen. Inflation was never a good thing.

I'll dump my coins in the alts that provide a better model of emission of coins.

In case of bitcoins fail prepare for a serious boom in altcoins.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Cluster2k on December 11, 2014, 03:08:00 AM
Let's talk about the reason most people must use Bitcoin?

They must use Facebook, because that is where their friends and family are.

I lead quite a satisfying life with plenty of family and friend contact without a Facebook account.  It can be done.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 11, 2014, 03:35:49 AM
...the gist of my argument and that is a quote or a paraphrase of the Satoshi Nakamoto that Bitcoin will either absorb the total global economy which stands at $100 trillion now, or will cease to exist. Do you understand that the man who created Bitcoin is saying that there is no middle ground?

...

So again, the creator of Bitcoin has stated on record - written statement that BTC will either gobble up the whole of global economy or fail and cease to exist. The middle ground does not exist according to Satoshi Nakamoto. You may argue with me, but this is not me just making up things it is the quote / paraphrase of Satoshi's statement. This is one of the most important statements about bitcoin and yet everybody wants to avoid any talk about it.

Can you please provide a link to the Satoshi statement in context? Was it on this forum?

I believe I know which theory Satoshi was ascribing too. It is called the Moldbug Monetary Theory. Moldbug is a central figure in the Dark Enlightenment (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=495527.0).

http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2011/04/on-monetary-restandardization.html

Quote from: Mencius Moldbug
Moldbug Monetary Theory (MoMT) is a post-Austrian theory of money. It is a minor refinement of Mises' standardization theory, which asserts that money is standardized by the demand for a standard medium of exchange. Rather, I assert, the demand is for a standard medium of saving.

...

You need to sell your silver and buy some new medium of saving X, which you will sell in 2030, in exchange for pizza, cruises and wine. What X should you choose? What X will get you the maximum pizza, cruises and wine?

Thus, the goal of the rational actor is to choose the X that everyone else will choose (assuming they choose right), but choose it first. In standards terms: pick the winner, be an early adopter.

...

We see the fundamental instability of monetary competition. Stable systems are buffered - they experience negative feedback. But this is very much a positive-feedback story. Whoever starts winning, can be expected to keep winning. A tiny breath of air, and the pencil, balanced on its point, falls over.

This explains some facts - for instance, why bimetallic standards are historically unstable. Across the millennia, governments are always trying to fix gold-silver ratios, and always failing. One money drives the other out by Gresham's law. But even if no one is so foolish as to fix this unfixable price, in the end there can be only one.

...

Consider the case of competition between ordinary 20th-century fiat currencies. These predictably depreciate against each other all the time - that is, different currencies exhibit different interest rates. Why doesn't all international currency competition collapse, as our gold-and-silver model has? Why didn't everyone in America in 1979 switch to D-Marks?

Good old forex has a very powerful buffer mechanism: the balance of trade. If country A starts to adopt country B's currency, country B's currency rises versus country A, which gives country B (ceteris paribus) a trade deficit relative to country A. This implies a flow of money from B to A: negative feedback. This feedback is absent from our gold-silver model because, and only because, we've assumed that gold and silver users are homogeneously distributed.

Moldbug is correct that the reason national currencies exist is because national governments exist. We don't individually trade internationally, thus most of us don't need a global unit-of-account, but the world is shrinking now and that is why now there is a push underway towards a global currency (or at least region currencies which regional free trade blocs, e.g. the Asian Union coming 2015 where there will be free movement of workers to any country in ASEAN).

What Moldbug is saying is that no matter what vehicles you might use to transact in, you will always be converting value back to the one monetary standard (one for your country or in the near future region or global monetary standard).

I believe Satoshi's point is that Bitcoin's value as an economic unit can not survive without taking over the world and becoming the monetary standard. And yes this is 100% correct. Even though Moldbug's timing was off, he correctly predicted How Bitcoin Will Die (http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2013_01_01_archive.html).

This doesn't mean Bitcoin won't live on as a bastardized payment mechanism folded into Paypal, Coinbase, etc.. But it does mean the economic unit of Bitcoin will not be what is traded long-term. Because the world population will standardize on a monetary unit and prefer to hold their balances in their unit-of-account.

Realize what unit-of-account means. It means you have no exchange volatility in your life. You can budget and plan.

So yes Bitcoin is mostly a speculation. It doesn't have the features to do a "coup" as Moldbug says.

And the blackswan is could anyone create an altcoin that could do that "coup"?

Well I have had an alternative theory based on Moldbug's theory. I figured out that the global economy could bifurcate (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=355212.0). Meaning we might end up with one monetary standard for the Knowledge Age and another one for the dying Industrial Age.

Why? Because there is a Coasian barrier between the two, akin the logic above about barriers to direct trade across national boundaries.

I've detailed those arguments in my and AnonyMint's archives.

I know what I am doing. And I am so far out in the economics stratosphere compared to you neophyte wannebees, it is no wonder you don't understand me.



Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: freequant on December 11, 2014, 03:48:27 AM
I think there is some misunderstanding between OP and his opponents.

If my understanding is correct (OP correct me if I got it wrong) OP doesn't claim that blockchain technology is a fad and I see no statement in his stance that suggests that the future global financial infrastructure isn't going to be underpinned by cryptography and peer-to-peer technology. On the other hand, many people who react to OP's stance seem to be doing an amalgamation of the concept of crypto-currency and the specific instance of this concept that is Bitcoin and generalize any argument made against Bitcoin as if they were made against the technical breakthrough of blockchain technology at large and its relevance to the future of global financial infrastructure. Granted, the fact that Satoshi didn't dissociate the name of the concept he invented from the name of its first implementation participates to the confusion.

But let's step back and look at things objectively: Satoshi's major contribution isn't Bitcoin but blockchain technology in the same way as James Watt's contribution to technology is the steam engine with rotary motion as a general concept and not that specific 10-horsepower model that he initially patented and that back then was perceived to be his invention and was expected to take over locomotion globally. A few hundred years later nobody remembers that specific engine model he submitted and we are not even using steam powered vehicules anymore but everyone remembers James Watt as the guy who figured how to convert steam power into rotary motion and enabled a new era of mass transportation. So these people who feel outraged at the idea that Satoshi's invention is being riped off by copycats and Satoshi's credit and legacy diluted, don't worry: although it may seem from our current perspective that so called alternate currencies are parasites and that Satoshi's original invention is being abused and wronged somehow, it will appear in hindsight that this frustrating invasion of alternate currencies was indeed the path chosen by technological evolution that made it possible for blockchain technology to prevail eventually.

Technology as the extension of evolution in human realm will seek to fill any gap that would allow for improvement. We know that a faster transaction network is possible. We know that a transaction network with more bandwidth is possible. We know that a transaction network consuming less resources is possible. We know that a transaction network with more features is possible. We know that a transaction network more fit to existing global financial ecosystem is possible. And we know that technological evolution / progress will ensure that what is possible actually occurs. We therefore all know that a transaction network with faster transaction time, larger bandwidth, lower resources consumption, larger features set and more fitness to current ecosystem is bound to emerge and replace Bitcoin. Although this is a difficult truth to look at, convinced as we are that this would somehow be some betrayal to Satoshi's legacy, this is nonetheless the truth and history will show that no matter how many iterations and what the final form blockchain technology will take, Satoshi will forever be celebrated as the man behind this revolution.

The bottom line as far as this thread is concerned is that although blockchain technology has entered our technological genome for good, Bitcoin as its first instance is not here to stay and will necessarily be replaced by more advanced designs. I will not venture to speculate on timelines or the identity of possible contenders and it is very possible that the currency that will overtake Bitcoin hasn't been incepted yet but a quick look at market capitalizations will nonetheless confirm beyond doubt that the relative market share of Bitcoin is shrinking and prompt objective observers to realize that Bitcoin is losing ground.

Upon this realization, investors would be wise to start analyzing the market and consider hedging when they perceive that a viable contender has entered the market and appears to be gaining ground.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Pecunia non olet on December 11, 2014, 03:53:11 AM
Satoshi Nakamoto that Bitcoin will either absorb the total global economy which stands at $100 trillion now, or will cease to exist. Do you understand that the man who created Bitcoin is saying that there is no middle ground?


So again, the creator of Bitcoin has stated on record - written statement that BTC will either gobble up the whole of global economy or fail and cease to exist. The middle ground does not exist according to Satoshi Nakamoto. You may argue with me, but this is not me just making up things it is the quote / paraphrase of Satoshi's statement. This is one of the most important statements about bitcoin and yet everybody wants to avoid any talk about it.

Here's something to wrap your head around: people are fallible.  So what if S. Nakamoto made that statement, it doesn't make it a foregone conclusion.



dropt, you are starting to talk in contradictions. I hope you are well. Is a full failure in bitcoin in your event horizon? If not: recalibrate.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 11, 2014, 03:55:35 AM
freequant, in How Bitcoin Dies, moldbug's point is block chain is perfect, except for one flaw. It can't survive politically. It is unknown yet whether some dark coin will provide the features necessary to resist takeover by the population-at-large which is not prepared for the lurch into the Knowledge Age (Oxford U. predicts 47% of current jobs to be replaced by automation before 2032). Thus the masses are going to support the government take over of Bitcoin and a monetary unit which serves their needs to steal from the productive and award to the weak and helpless. This is socialism.

The blackswan is an altcoin that escapes this dilemma. I believe I explained that the only way I can see it will be done, is by latching on to the Knowledge Age because of some feature that its needs that requires they not use the unit-of-account of the masses. I actually have an idea for this already. And I have shared it on the forums.

But nobody pays attention. Which is fine.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: freequant on December 11, 2014, 04:14:36 AM
The blackswan is an altcoin that escapes this dilemma. I believe I explained that the only way I can see it will be done, is by latching on to the Knowledge Age because of some feature that its needs that requires they not use the unit-of-account of the masses. I actually have an idea for this already. And I have shared it on the forums.
I'm interested. Can you share or PM me the link?


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Muuurrrrica! on December 11, 2014, 04:23:23 AM

The blackswan is an altcoin that escapes this dilemma. I believe I explained that the only way I can see it will be done, is by latching on to the Knowledge Age because of some feature that its needs that requires they not use the unit-of-account of the masses. I actually have an idea for this already. And I have shared it on the forums.

there is actually a few people roaming the forum with the same message. They all get ignored and laughed at normally. It's just not in the realm of the possible for 99% of the people around here.



Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: freequant on December 11, 2014, 04:24:33 AM
How the fuck does this serious monetary theory discussion end up on the Speculation forum? Hey moderators, move this thread to the Economics forum.
I second this. For the sake of Bitcoin itself if not for the sake of intellectual completeness, it's about time to stop acting as solipsistic ostriches and start looking at the competitive landscape. Failing to do so is a short cut to expedited extinction.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 11, 2014, 04:30:26 AM
freequant, I am not ignoring you, but I think I partially answered in my prior post. And I would much rather accomplish than talk. But I can't promise I will. If there is any serious group of capable developers that want to PM me, I do read. But I mean capable. Someone of smooth's caliber, but with more time to invest in it full-time.

And this is risky. Much easier to create a pump-and-dump than to really take on this challenge.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: freequant on December 11, 2014, 04:36:09 AM

The blackswan is an altcoin that escapes this dilemma. I believe I explained that the only way I can see it will be done, is by latching on to the Knowledge Age because of some feature that its needs that requires they not use the unit-of-account of the masses. I actually have an idea for this already. And I have shared it on the forums.

there is actually a few people roaming the forum with the same message. They all get ignored and laughed at normally. It's just not in the realm of the possible for 99% of the people around here.



That is called the problem of induction (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction) and is the very cognitive dead angle that is leading the whole financial industry in the very same wall at the end of every economic cycle. What's the point of aiming to take over Wall Street if we are not any wiser?


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: freequant on December 11, 2014, 04:43:26 AM
freequant, I am not ignoring you, but I think I partially answered in my prior post. And I would much rather accomplish than talk. But I can't promise I will. If there is any serious group of capable developers that want to PM me, I do read. But I mean capable. Someone of smooth's caliber, but with more time to invest in it full-time.

And this is risky. Much easier to create a pump-and-dump than to really take on this challenge.
If you don't share your ideas there is no ground to start from. But you know that already.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 11, 2014, 04:49:54 AM
freequant, I am not ignoring you, but I think I partially answered in my prior post. And I would much rather accomplish than talk. But I can't promise I will. If there is any serious group of capable developers that want to PM me, I do read. But I mean capable. Someone of smooth's caliber, but with more time to invest in it full-time.

And this is risky. Much easier to create a pump-and-dump than to really take on this challenge.
If you don't share your ideas there is no ground to start from. But you know that already.

I have shared. But i get tired of digging through my archives to provide links. I have provided more links than any man on earth, yet nothing ever comes from it.

I suppose if you are keenly interested, you will dig. Find the discussion about creating a better Tor network and using micropayments to eliminate the Sybil attack that exists on Tor.

Sorry Cryptonote ring sigs are not anonymous if your IP is not also. I have holistic designs in mind. But it is too much I think for one man to implement by himself.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: liexel on December 11, 2014, 04:54:23 AM
John Mauldin on Bitcoin (http://www.businessinsider.com/mauldin-what-is-bitcoin-2014-12?IR=T&)


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: b4basit on December 11, 2014, 05:00:49 AM
sounds like u'want to scared us :p u can encourge people don't broke their hope...anway i am 2/3 agree with you.....


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: elinehaarbollen on December 11, 2014, 05:03:59 AM
microsoft just accepted bitcoin.
Is this discussion even relevant now ?


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: freequant on December 11, 2014, 05:23:38 AM

I have shared. But i get tired of digging through my archives to provide links. I have provided more links than any man on earth, yet nothing ever comes from it.

I suppose if you are keenly interested, you will dig. Find the discussion about creating a better Tor network and using micropayments to eliminate the Sybil attack that exists on Tor.

Sorry Cryptonote ring sigs are not anonymous if your IP is not also. I have holistic designs in mind. But it is too much I think for one man to implement by himself.
If you are not keen on digging links, why advertize your previous posts? The signal/noise ratio is simply too low here to go on digging people's post history just because they claim to have made useful contributions which in the vast majority of cases turns out not to be the case.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: SamTsuedo on December 11, 2014, 05:39:38 AM
I think there is some misunderstanding between OP and his opponents.

If my understanding is correct (OP correct me if I got it wrong) OP doesn't claim that blockchain technology is a fad and I see no statement in his stance that suggests that the future global financial infrastructure isn't going to be underpinned by cryptography and peer-to-peer technology. On the other hand, many people who react to OP's stance seem to be doing an amalgamation of the concept of crypto-currency and the specific instance of this concept that is Bitcoin and generalize any argument made against Bitcoin as if they were made against the technical breakthrough of blockchain technology at large and its relevance to the future of global financial infrastructure. Granted, the fact that Satoshi didn't dissociate the name of the concept he invented from the name of its first implementation participates to the confusion.

But let's step back and look at things objectively: Satoshi's major contribution isn't Bitcoin but blockchain technology in the same way as James Watt's contribution to technology is the steam engine with rotary motion as a general concept and not that specific 10-horsepower model that he initially patented and that back then was perceived to be his invention and was expected to take over locomotion globally. A few hundred years later nobody remembers that specific engine model he submitted and we are not even using steam powered vehicules anymore but everyone remembers James Watt as the guy who figured how to convert steam power into rotary motion and enabled a new era of mass transportation. So these people who feel outraged at the idea that Satoshi's invention is being riped off by copycats and Satoshi's credit and legacy diluted, don't worry: although it may seem from our current perspective that so called alternate currencies are parasites and that Satoshi's original invention is being abused and wronged somehow, it will appear in hindsight that this frustrating invasion of alternate currencies was indeed the path chosen by technological evolution that made it possible for blockchain technology to prevail eventually.

Technology as the extension of evolution in human realm will seek to fill any gap that would allow for improvement. We know that a faster transaction network is possible. We know that a transaction network with more bandwidth is possible. We know that a transaction network consuming less resources is possible. We know that a transaction network with more features is possible. We know that a transaction network more fit to existing global financial ecosystem is possible. And we know that technological evolution / progress will ensure that what is possible actually occurs. We therefore all know that a transaction network with faster transaction time, larger bandwidth, lower resources consumption, larger features set and more fitness to current ecosystem is bound to emerge and replace Bitcoin. Although this is a difficult truth to look at, convinced as we are that this would somehow be some betrayal to Satoshi's legacy, this is nonetheless the truth and history will show that no matter how many iterations and what the final form blockchain technology will take, Satoshi will forever be celebrated as the man behind this revolution.

The bottom line as far as this thread is concerned is that although blockchain technology has entered our technological genome for good, Bitcoin as its first instance is not here to stay and will necessarily be replaced by more advanced designs. I will not venture to speculate on timelines or the identity of possible contenders and it is very possible that the currency that will overtake Bitcoin hasn't been incepted yet but a quick look at market capitalizations will nonetheless confirm beyond doubt that the relative market share of Bitcoin is shrinking and prompt objective observers to realize that Bitcoin is losing ground.

Upon this realization, investors would be wise to start analyzing the market and consider hedging when they perceive that a viable contender has entered the market and appears to be gaining ground.

Thank you. You are right to point out that I never criticized blockchain technology in anyway, but looking in hindsight it seems I made a mistake by not emphasizing the fact that blockchain was/ is a revolutionary aspect and the driving force behind the cryptos. Those of you who are able to read between lines - understood that I am a supporter of crypto currencies, thus I did not feel it was necessary to elaborate on this matter.

The comparison with social media development might not have been the perfect example but all of you know what I was trying to say. Much more accurate comparison is the one presented by freequant in the above post comparing Watt and Satoshi. I think this is a perfect example - almost a mirror thing, just different temporal and spatial settings.

The idea is not to blindly worship bitcoin, but to examine the future of the crypto world in this context. I know most of you are heavily invested in BTC and feel that I am attacking you personally - I also hold BTC and alts. So we are in the same boat. Having an open and uncensored debate cannot hurt the community and it is something we desperately need.

Sam


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Lauda on December 11, 2014, 06:03:52 AM
Stop trolling. I paid $25 to transfer $100 once via Western Union.
You pay a fee with banks as well, stop selling a fake story.

Of course you did.  And I've paid $50 for a coke.  There are stupid ways of sending money, and they are expensive.  Western Union is not how normal fiat transactions are done.  Certainly not how a billion-dollar transaction would be done.  If you know someone who tried to send a billion dollars via WU, give me his addy--I got some Bitcoin to sell him :)

If your bank charges you for writing checks and using a debit card, I suspect you have stumbled upon a fiat equivalent of Neo Bee.

Yes I did. I'm pretty sure that people would rather believe me than you, and it's obvious why.
I could ask them to dig up the records easily.


https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/microsoft-now-accepts-bitcoin-bitpay/
But wait, OP and his crew are the smart ones. We, along with the executives of Microsoft are the delusional ones.  ::)


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Muuurrrrica! on December 11, 2014, 06:12:53 AM
Stop trolling. I paid $25 to transfer $100 once via Western Union.
You pay a fee with banks as well, stop selling a fake story.

Of course you did.  And I've paid $50 for a coke.  There are stupid ways of sending money, and they are expensive.  Western Union is not how normal fiat transactions are done.  Certainly not how a billion-dollar transaction would be done.  If you know someone who tried to send a billion dollars via WU, give me his addy--I got some Bitcoin to sell him :)

If your bank charges you for writing checks and using a debit card, I suspect you have stumbled upon a fiat equivalent of Neo Bee.

Yes I did. I'm pretty sure that people would rather believe me than you, and it's obvious why.
I could ask them to dig up the records easily.


https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/microsoft-now-accepts-bitcoin-bitpay/
But wait, OP and his crew are the smart ones. We, along with the executives of Microsoft are the delusional ones.  ::)

if it dumps on the news it'll dump hard. Amazing how everyone is in instant bubblemode immediately. I think we will be back to this and other threads in about 10 to 15 days.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: btcxyzzz on December 11, 2014, 10:18:34 AM
Must say Sam's very close-minded person + it's probably throw-away account just for trolling. Yeah, I want it to drop to ~310 so I can buy it, but I don't fail to see the great future for Bitcoin.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Kracken on December 11, 2014, 11:35:15 AM

Just because Satoshi said it, doesn't make it true, it was just his personal opinion.

You gotta be kidding me. This is the written statement by a man who created bitcoin. You need a head check buddy.



And IBM once said "there is the need for only 1 computer in the world".

Bill Gates once said "we will never make a 32bit operating system".

DEC Chairman Ken Olsen said "no one would want a personal computer in their home".

Your Point?

All the above are very rich and successful people/corporations who made mistakes in their predictions hardly proves anything does it?


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: redsn0w on December 11, 2014, 11:45:01 AM
A world with the money can not be perfect [BCNext]. It is  simple....


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: NotLambchop on December 11, 2014, 12:22:09 PM
Stop trolling. I paid $25 to transfer $100 once via Western Union.
You pay a fee with banks as well, stop selling a fake story.

Of course you did.  And I've paid $50 for a coke.  There are stupid ways of sending money, and they are expensive.  Western Union is not how normal fiat transactions are done.  Certainly not how a billion-dollar transaction would be done.  If you know someone who tried to send a billion dollars via WU, give me his addy--I got some Bitcoin to sell him :)

If your bank charges you for writing checks and using a debit card, I suspect you have stumbled upon a fiat equivalent of Neo Bee.

Yes I did. I'm pretty sure that people would rather believe me than you, and it's obvious why.
I could ask them to dig up the records easily.

And I paid $50 for a coke--not joking.  Well, sort'a a joke at the time--last can of coke in the house, long story.  That's not the point tho.  The point, for the slow-to-grasp, is this:
Western Union is not normally used to transact in fiat.  Cash, checks, debit, and credit cards are.  Those are free to use, thus cheaper than Bitcoin, where every transaction costs something.
You asked for your example to be shown as shit, it was.  I did.
Instead of thanking me for the lesson like a reasonable human being, you chose to sperge :-\

Quote
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/microsoft-now-accepts-bitcoin-bitpay/
But wait, OP and his crew are the smart ones. We, along with the executives of Microsoft are the delusional ones.  ::)

Lol, I'd accept wooden nickels, as long as some payment processor took these wood chips & turned them into USD before i had to touch them.

Enjoy the pump, hope you had fun!

http://s3.postimg.org/gx5wm7dz7/Capture.jpg
http://s14.postimg.org/ehv5mrw2p/congrats.gif


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: nakaone on December 11, 2014, 02:37:46 PM
point 2-5 are very valid use cases for bitcoin. your arguments are may be reasonable for certain countries - but never on global scale.

Never huh?

Like all those who said silver would never fall again below $17. Like all those who said Bitcoin wouldn't fall from $1000 to $350. Yeah I was predicting all those in public, I even publicly predicted the $48 top for silver 1 year before it occurred (http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article23786.html).

Sorry you are just hot air. I have an analysis record which speaks loud and clear.

Look we all try to classify bitcoin and it is definetely reasonable to use certain elements of precious metal markets - however the biggest difference with bitcoin is that is intangible, completely divisible and easy to transport.

You are analysis regarding bitcoins future development is build on several worst-case-assumptions (world wide quasi dictatorship, fungibility crisis etc. pp) - we all do not know if this will or will not happen in the future, but I assume, given that we have over 200 jurisdictions in the world, it is not likely.

however regarding personal insults - I am sorry using the word horrible, it was inappropiate. The better word for your economic analysis is radical.
   


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: asdlolciterquit on December 11, 2014, 02:50:59 PM
People, you need a reality check. Most of you here are holding to a few BTC expecting to become millionaires some day. You are in a collective mass delusion - about 95% of you here.

Satoshi Nakamoto stated himself that with BTC there will be no middle way - it will absord the whole world's economy which is estimated to be around $100 trillion including the black markets. If this does not happen BTC will be literally worthless - not even half a cent that it started at.

Bitcoin has been around since 2009 , so we are entering the 6th year of its existence. How many years would it take for bitcoin to absorb the total global economy? 50 years ? 100 years ? I doesn't matter because it was just another fad like myspace with a limited lifespan - that opened the social media to the mainstream and gave us twitter and facebook. Bitcoin's historical significance will be that it launched the concept of crypto currency to the mainstream. It will not be worth $10,000 or $100,000 dollars anytime soon (read: never).

So those of you who are still in delusional states holding the BTC you bought at $700 or $900 dollars, cut your loses and get away as fast as you can. November 2013 was the bubble which will never repeat again. All this talk about ETF is rubbish, because it is already calculated into the price.

The time is running out for BTC , and I am 90% certain it will be worthless before 2020. It has accomplished its task - crypto currency is mainstream.

Those smart enough know that the only real purpose of BTC right now is as a vehicle for transaction of fiat money, without being exposed to the scrutiny of the government checks and the global banking system, they understand that bitcoin is not a commodity, not a store of value, and it never was - to them it doesn't matter if the price of one BTC is $1 or $100,000. It doesn't change anything.

Some of you are so emotionally attached to your stack of bitcoins that you will react in a violent emotional outrage at my post. Those of you who are more stable are starting to realize what the score is, and no mate your 10 BTC or your 100 BTC stack will not make you a $ millionaire, might as well go to Vegas and try your hand at becoming a millionaire there. You have better chances.

Sam

same old story, about people that are almost sure about something they can't know


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Paashaas on December 11, 2014, 03:11:42 PM
People, you need a reality check. Most of you here are holding to a few BTC expecting to become millionaires some day. You are in a collective mass delusion - about 95% of you here.

Satoshi Nakamoto stated himself that with BTC there will be no middle way - it will absord the whole world's economy which is estimated to be around $100 trillion including the black markets. If this does not happen BTC will be literally worthless - not even half a cent that it started at.

Bitcoin has been around since 2009 , so we are entering the 6th year of its existence. How many years would it take for bitcoin to absorb the total global economy? 50 years ? 100 years ? I doesn't matter because it was just another fad like myspace with a limited lifespan - that opened the social media to the mainstream and gave us twitter and facebook. Bitcoin's historical significance will be that it launched the concept of crypto currency to the mainstream. It will not be worth $10,000 or $100,000 dollars anytime soon (read: never).

So those of you who are still in delusional states holding the BTC you bought at $700 or $900 dollars, cut your loses and get away as fast as you can. November 2013 was the bubble which will never repeat again. All this talk about ETF is rubbish, because it is already calculated into the price.

The time is running out for BTC , and I am 90% certain it will be worthless before 2020. It has accomplished its task - crypto currency is mainstream.

Those smart enough know that the only real purpose of BTC right now is as a vehicle for transaction of fiat money, without being exposed to the scrutiny of the government checks and the global banking system, they understand that bitcoin is not a commodity, not a store of value, and it never was - to them it doesn't matter if the price of one BTC is $1 or $100,000. It doesn't change anything.

Some of you are so emotionally attached to your stack of bitcoins that you will react in a violent emotional outrage at my post. Those of you who are more stable are starting to realize what the score is, and no mate your 10 BTC or your 100 BTC stack will not make you a $ millionaire, might as well go to Vegas and try your hand at becoming a millionaire there. You have better chances.

Sam

Huge pile off Bullschit here, strong troll post from someone with a very shortsighted look on new tech.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: wpalczynski on December 11, 2014, 09:52:56 PM


lastly if anyone is shouting that bitcoin is dead and will only be worth 1cent soon. how about you sell me 1bitcoin for 1c now and put your money where your mouth is. i dare you to sell me 1000 bitcoins for $10. until you are willing to do such a thing, your points are meaningless.

This post made me LOL.  I'm bullish on Bitcoin but why in the world would someone sell you something for 0.01$ if they can sell it for 330$??

That statement makes no sense.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: youngmike on December 11, 2014, 11:10:41 PM


I don't have to pay 50$ coke never ever anymore!!!! :)

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/284/161/856.jpg


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: SamTsuedo on December 12, 2014, 07:10:16 AM
This is what they do to they when you confront the powers that be:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=890205.0

They discredit you, defame you, insult you and destroy you.

Watch out people.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: fewcoins on December 13, 2014, 03:38:35 AM


lastly if anyone is shouting that bitcoin is dead and will only be worth 1cent soon. how about you sell me 1bitcoin for 1c now and put your money where your mouth is. i dare you to sell me 1000 bitcoins for $10. until you are willing to do such a thing, your points are meaningless.

This post made me LOL.  I'm bullish on Bitcoin but why in the world would someone sell you something for 0.01$ if they can sell it for 330$??

That statement makes no sense.

This is the kind of reasoning bitcoin bulls use... what can you do, they see BTC is not even holding 345, but they will buy the "dip" all weekend


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Alix Istek on December 21, 2014, 04:55:04 AM

http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2011/04/on-monetary-restandardization.html

Quote from: Mencius Moldbug

And when it comes to USG, and USD - creating a successful distributed digital currency is what I call "coup-complete."  Ie, as a difficult problem, it is fundamentally equivalent to the well-known difficult problem of regime change.  Are coups impossible?  No, of course not.  What's impossible, however, is pulling a coup when you don't know you're even trying to pull a coup.



So yes Bitcoin is mostly a speculation. It doesn't have the features to do a "coup" as Moldbug says.

And the blackswan is could anyone create an altcoin that could do that "coup"?


Moldbug is at least partially correct, currency domination is coup-complete.

So, let us imagine - what would a real coup look like?  Firstly, it would be something created specifically for that goal - designed to destroy the current world order and rebuild it.  Secondly, it needs a decisive strategic advantage: an edge so overwhelming that it can takeover the world, without even requiring largescale adoption from everday folks.

What is the real source of power?  This isn't a trick question.  It is intelligence itself - that is the ultimate source of all power, all technology, and all value.

Bitcoin will not conquer the world because its Proof of Work distribution strategy consumes precious economic investment and outputs waste heat.  It is maximally unintelligent - pure entropy.

Imagine for a moment an alternate world where instead of Bitcoin we had a more optimal cryptocurrency appear at the same time.  Imagine - for sake of argument - that this alternate design was perfectly efficient and scalable, such that trillions of transactions per second are possible and double-spending is solved effortlessly without requiring proof-of-work.  Naturally this presents another potential problem (at least when viewed from within the narrow perspective of Bitcoin fundamentalism) or rather an opportunity - how should the coins be distributed?

The optimal distribution is simply that which maximizes the long term value of the coin.

Intelligence is the generator of all value, so the optimal distribution algorithm would be one that spends every coin in such a way as to maximally increase the intelligence of the network at every step. 

Instead of a huge supercomputer doing pointless hashes, you have a huge supercomputer doing AI research: deep learning, global optimization, etc.  And the end outcome is the generation of a new virtual world, economy, and distributed government of superintelligent agents.  Imagine tech similar to SIRI of today evolving towards something like Samantha from the movie Her (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Her_%28film%29)  - and then beyond - all enabled by a distributed cryptographic economy, and of course, a new cryptocurrency. 

The coup is simply - the Singularity.

This project actually exists, and is just beginning (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=899884.msg9892334#msg9892334).


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: jaredboice on December 21, 2014, 05:09:42 AM
Imagine if you will, a troll who spams bitcoin threads to promote his new alt coin  ::)


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: BlindMayorBitcorn on December 21, 2014, 05:13:49 AM


lastly if anyone is shouting that bitcoin is dead and will only be worth 1cent soon. how about you sell me 1bitcoin for 1c now and put your money where your mouth is. i dare you to sell me 1000 bitcoins for $10. until you are willing to do such a thing, your points are meaningless.

This post made me LOL.  I'm bullish on Bitcoin but why in the world would someone sell you something for 0.01$ if they can sell it for 330$??

That statement makes no sense.

This is the kind of reasoning bitcoin bulls use... what can you do, they see BTC is not even holding 345, but they will buy the "dip" all weekend

I thought you were one of them now ;)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=900064.msg9902906#msg9902906


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: BlindMayorBitcorn on December 21, 2014, 06:03:12 AM

Those smart enough know that the only real purpose of BTC right now is as a vehicle for transaction of fiat money, without being exposed to the scrutiny of the government checks and the global banking system, they understand that bitcoin is not a commodity, not a store of value, and it never was - to them it doesn't matter if the price of one BTC is $1 or $100,000. It doesn't change anything.


Spot on, Sam!


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: fewcoins on December 21, 2014, 06:07:49 AM


lastly if anyone is shouting that bitcoin is dead and will only be worth 1cent soon. how about you sell me 1bitcoin for 1c now and put your money where your mouth is. i dare you to sell me 1000 bitcoins for $10. until you are willing to do such a thing, your points are meaningless.

This post made me LOL.  I'm bullish on Bitcoin but why in the world would someone sell you something for 0.01$ if they can sell it for 330$??

That statement makes no sense.

This is the kind of reasoning bitcoin bulls use... what can you do, they see BTC is not even holding 345, but they will buy the "dip" all weekend

I thought you were one of them now ;)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=900064.msg9902906#msg9902906

wow way to quote this thread way before I called the bottom on this fall & a new bounce coming just like I called the last one to $485~
I am talking about not holding 345 in the post, we didn't, that's why I have been buying on leverage averaging $317~ & of course I wish I could have grabbed plenty more coins at 300 but I didn't! Nobody calls anything PERFECTLY and I am all in already. You can't quote one post I made that was wrong, that's guaranteed. So keep up the pointless quotes... ANYWAY, Waiting for the bounce that is already well calculated & will happen. Good luck to all, you have been warned


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: BlindMayorBitcorn on December 21, 2014, 06:09:35 AM
It's because this: you're starting to sound desperate  ::)


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: fewcoins on December 21, 2014, 06:13:34 AM
Desperate how? You are following me around like I'm your mommy! Do you really need attention that bad? I am acknowledging you and your endless contradictory posts  :-*


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: ronimacarroni on December 21, 2014, 06:51:48 AM
Well the idea idea of cryptocurrency is here to stay.
Cryptocurrency is very convinient and secure.
The question is will it bitcoin?
I think the answer is yes because businesses like overstock.com and microsoft have already started accepting it and they probably don't feel like the minor changes other crypto currencies offer are worth the hassle of switching.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Alix Istek on December 21, 2014, 07:48:14 AM
Well the idea idea of cryptocurrency is here to stay.
Cryptocurrency is very convinient and secure.
The question is will it bitcoin?
I think the answer is yes because businesses like overstock.com and microsoft have already started accepting it and they probably don't feel like the minor changes other crypto currencies offer are worth the hassle of switching.

Accepting it is one thing, actually holding it in their cash reserves is another.

In most cases 'Accepting' just seems to mean autoconverting to dollars with bitpay - except for overstock which is actually claiming to hold some - are there any others?


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: BlindMayorBitcorn on December 21, 2014, 01:07:56 PM
Desperate how? You are following me around like I'm your mommy! Do you really need attention that bad? I am acknowledging you and your endless contradictory posts  :-*

You spam this forum like it's going out of style, brah ;)


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: dinofelis on December 21, 2014, 02:08:28 PM
People, you need a reality check. Most of you here are holding to a few BTC expecting to become millionaires some day. You are in a collective mass delusion - about 95% of you here.

Satoshi Nakamoto stated himself that with BTC there will be no middle way - it will absord the whole world's economy which is estimated to be around $100 trillion including the black markets. If this does not happen BTC will be literally worthless - not even half a cent that it started at.

The question of whether a new "universal" money will necessarily absorb everything, or will share its market with competitors, is an open one.  There are arguments that go in the direction of a monopoly, but there are also arguments in the sense of a competitive market of different kinds of money (gold, fiat, altcoins, ...).

Nevertheless, I think you have the time scales wrong.  It will probably take decades, if not centuries, to achieve the full conversion from the current fiat system to something else like bitcoin.  It took more than a century to switch fully from gold to fiat (started out in the 19th century, where fiat was fully covered by gold and silver, and ended with the official release of any reference to gold with Nixon). 

Even the bitcoin protocol wouldn't allow one to switch fully to bitcoin without an ecological disaster in the first 20 years or so, because the mining incentive would use up too much ressources (mainly energy and hardware).

Bitcoin is not just a technology such as the internet or the mobile phone.  Money is much deeper rooted in society, and its adoption will be VERY LONG.   So you cannot say anything about bitcoin's success before at least several decades.

I don't know how Satoshi saw that, but the fact that the inflation of bitcoin is programmed over 130 years, gives you an idea of the sort of time scale he had in mind.    I wouldn't expect any monetary adoption to the mainstream before several decades.



Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Sumerian on December 21, 2014, 02:09:45 PM
Stop your bitching because you're doing the same except for having the opposite opinion.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Alix Istek on December 23, 2014, 05:43:50 AM
Imagine if you will, a troll who spams bitcoin threads to promote his new alt coin  ::)

Imagine, if you will, a forum with actual intelligent discussion - instead of endless spam variations (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=220821;sa=showPosts) of "you're a troll!".


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Alix Istek on December 23, 2014, 06:00:07 AM
Nevertheless, I think you have the time scales wrong.  It will probably take decades, if not centuries, to achieve the full conversion from the current fiat system to something else like bitcoin.  It took more than a century to switch fully from gold to fiat (started out in the 19th century, where fiat was fully covered by gold and silver, and ended with the official release of any reference to gold with Nixon).

Agree with much of your other points, but using linear historical comparisons for timeframes can be misleading, due to various vaguely exponential technological acceleration effects.

Quote
Even the bitcoin protocol wouldn't allow one to switch fully to bitcoin without an ecological disaster in the first 20 years or so, because the mining incentive would use up too much ressources (mainly energy and hardware).

Yes, but ecological disaster is perhaps not the best way to look at it, for even if the ecological disaster were averted, its still a giant economic malinvestment.  It creates a bunch of hardware and computation that doesn't actually lead to technological/economic growth.

The other problem with the whole "bitcoin as reserve currency" idea is the incompatibility between the bitcoiner ideal of a currency and world free of taxation, and the practical necessity for governments to fund themselves.

For example, consider a world where bitcoin became the reserve currency, and then - hypothetically - a giant asteroid was found on a collision course that would destroy the world in the next 5 years, unless we could spend 10 $trillion on some massive spaceship intercept missile program.

Now, in a world where governments can arbitrarily commandeer 50%, or 80% of the GDP, the disaster can be avoided.  But in the ideal bitcoiner world, you have a problem.  In reality governments aren't going to just give up and die.

So given all that, the more realistic scenarios would involve massive tax increases in other areas to compensate - such as much higher property taxes, or whatever.  The end result is you still have something similar to the present wealth tax - just in a different form.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Nagle on December 23, 2014, 08:33:10 AM
I don't know how Satoshi saw that, but the fact that the inflation of bitcoin is programmed over 130 years, gives you an idea of the sort of time scale he had in mind.
Over half the potential Bitcoins have already been mined. 64%, actually.  That gives a sense of the real time scale involved.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: botany on December 24, 2014, 07:27:48 AM
I don't know how Satoshi saw that, but the fact that the inflation of bitcoin is programmed over 130 years, gives you an idea of the sort of time scale he had in mind.
Over half the potential Bitcoins have already been mined. 64%, actually.  That gives a sense of the real time scale involved.

Although 64% of bitcoins have been mined, the increase in money supply (percentage terms) far exceeds the increase in money supply of fiat in most countries.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: MataKhobRazi on December 24, 2014, 03:07:57 PM
Why does bitcoin need to: "absorb the total global economy"  ? Credit cards don't account for the global economy and still are successful.

If you had done you research about bitcoin, you would know that is an almost exact quote of Satoshi Nakamoto, and one of the most famous ones.

That is not me making this stuff up. Just paraphrasing the man who created bitcoin.


[...]

So again, the creator of Bitcoin has stated on record - written statement that BTC will either gobble up the whole of global economy or fail and cease to exist. The middle ground does not exist according to Satoshi Nakamoto. You may argue with me, but this is not me just making up things it is the quote / paraphrase of Satoshi's statement. This is one of the most important statements about bitcoin and yet everybody wants to avoid any talk about it.

[...]

I'm sorry but Satoshi never said "absorb the total global economy". He rather said "I'm sure that in 20 years there will either be very large transaction volume or no volume".

Source : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=48.msg329#msg329

This is COMPLETELY different...


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Sumerian on December 24, 2014, 09:11:24 PM
I don't know how Satoshi saw that, but the fact that the inflation of bitcoin is programmed over 130 years, gives you an idea of the sort of time scale he had in mind.
Over half the potential Bitcoins have already been mined. 64%, actually.  That gives a sense of the real time scale involved.

Although 64% of bitcoins have been mined, the increase in money supply (percentage terms) far exceeds the increase in money supply of fiat in most countries.

Plus the inflation of bitcoin is nothing compared to fiats' inflation


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: bigtimespaghetti on December 24, 2014, 09:29:19 PM
I don't know how Satoshi saw that, but the fact that the inflation of bitcoin is programmed over 130 years, gives you an idea of the sort of time scale he had in mind.
Over half the potential Bitcoins have already been mined. 64%, actually.  That gives a sense of the real time scale involved.

Although 64% of bitcoins have been mined, the increase in money supply (percentage terms) far exceeds the increase in money supply of fiat in most countries.

Plus the inflation of bitcoin is nothing compared to fiats' inflation

Depends what metric you are using. The increase in money supply has not made it into the real economy yet..


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: dinofelis on December 27, 2014, 08:33:49 AM
Those smart enough know that the only real purpose of BTC right now is as a vehicle for transaction of fiat money, without being exposed to the scrutiny of the government checks and the global banking system, they understand that bitcoin is not a commodity, not a store of value, and it never was - to them it doesn't matter if the price of one BTC is $1 or $100,000. It doesn't change anything.

The point is that this is exactly a fundamental of bitcoin and of its value.  Although you may think that using bitcoin as a currency (in this case for a very limited market) has an arbitrary value, that is not true.  There will be a demand for bitcoin for exactly that purpose and as bitcoins will be held a certain time in between transactions, that corresponds, with the monetary formula M x V = Q x P, to a certain price.  It is true that with short holding times (high velocity V) and a relatively small market Q, this will imply a rather small price of bitcoin (1/P).  But that price will not be arbitrarily low.  It will be determined by the demand for coins to do exactly those transactions you are talking about, as they need finite time to complete (so you cannot use a single coin going back and forth to transmit a few billion $ worth, there is a real demand).

My guess is that the current fundamental of bitcoin at this moment for that purpose is in the single or double digit ballpark.  As long as bitcoin has that use, it will have at least that price.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: dinofelis on December 27, 2014, 08:38:58 AM
Well the idea idea of cryptocurrency is here to stay.
Cryptocurrency is very convinient and secure.
The question is will it bitcoin?
I think the answer is yes because businesses like overstock.com and microsoft have already started accepting it and they probably don't feel like the minor changes other crypto currencies offer are worth the hassle of switching.

Accepting it is one thing, actually holding it in their cash reserves is another.

In most cases 'Accepting' just seems to mean autoconverting to dollars with bitpay - except for overstock which is actually claiming to hold some - are there any others?

It is a first step.  Of course you first accept and auto-convert, because for those retailers, most of their suppliers (including their human ressources) must be paid in fiat for the moment.  However, if more and more businesses (including the suppliers of those retailers) start accepting bitcoin, then it can become interesting for those retailers to pay their suppliers ALSO directly in bitcoin, and then the incentive to convert to fiat will be less.

Right now, a retailer cannot do much with bitcoin, so it is normal for them to convert to fiat, as that is what they need to use for their business.  But as more and more businesses will accept bitcoin, there will be less and less incentive for them to convert coins to fiat.  At a certain point, it will become interesting to get paid in coins too (at least part of your salary).  But that's still far away.



Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: smoothie on December 27, 2014, 09:01:39 AM
People, you need a reality check. Most of you here are holding to a few BTC expecting to become millionaires some day. You are in a collective mass delusion - about 95% of you here.

Satoshi Nakamoto stated himself that with BTC there will be no middle way - it will absord the whole world's economy which is estimated to be around $100 trillion including the black markets. If this does not happen BTC will be literally worthless - not even half a cent that it started at.

Bitcoin has been around since 2009 , so we are entering the 6th year of its existence. How many years would it take for bitcoin to absorb the total global economy? 50 years ? 100 years ? I doesn't matter because it was just another fad like myspace with a limited lifespan - that opened the social media to the mainstream and gave us twitter and facebook. Bitcoin's historical significance will be that it launched the concept of crypto currency to the mainstream. It will not be worth $10,000 or $100,000 dollars anytime soon (read: never).

So those of you who are still in delusional states holding the BTC you bought at $700 or $900 dollars, cut your loses and get away as fast as you can. November 2013 was the bubble which will never repeat again. All this talk about ETF is rubbish, because it is already calculated into the price.

The time is running out for BTC , and I am 90% certain it will be worthless before 2020. It has accomplished its task - crypto currency is mainstream.

Those smart enough know that the only real purpose of BTC right now is as a vehicle for transaction of fiat money, without being exposed to the scrutiny of the government checks and the global banking system, they understand that bitcoin is not a commodity, not a store of value, and it never was - to them it doesn't matter if the price of one BTC is $1 or $100,000. It doesn't change anything.

Some of you are so emotionally attached to your stack of bitcoins that you will react in a violent emotional outrage at my post. Those of you who are more stable are starting to realize what the score is, and no mate your 10 BTC or your 100 BTC stack will not make you a $ millionaire, might as well go to Vegas and try your hand at becoming a millionaire there. You have better chances.

Sam

21,000,00 * 0.005 = $105,000

LOL I'll throw in $105,000 if they get there and even then I can't buy them all because of lost bitcoins or unmined coins.

Your point is invalid as someone with a little money could buy up all the BTC in existence for a small price.

Please go back to the rock you came out from under.  :D


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: fewcoins on December 29, 2014, 02:41:00 AM
^ This would never happen since there are already 100s of thousands of people who said they will never sell... They will keep trying to buy the entire way down so logically we really can't break this triple digit level EVER  :-*


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: BlindMayorBitcorn on December 29, 2014, 02:43:04 AM
http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/evil-stork-meme.jpg


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: oblivi on December 29, 2014, 05:00:21 PM
Satoshi Nakamoto stated himself that with BTC there will be no middle way - it will absord the whole world's economy which is estimated to be around $100 trillion including the black markets. If this does not happen BTC will be literally worthless - not even half a cent that it started at.


Yes, it's a 50%-50%, its a revolution or it becomes deprecated.

Do you really want to miss on such potential boat? Everyone not owning at least a couple Bitcoin is mentally insane, period.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Silverspoon on December 29, 2014, 05:59:24 PM
Satoshi Nakamoto stated himself that with BTC there will be no middle way - it will absord the whole world's economy which is estimated to be around $100 trillion including the black markets. If this does not happen BTC will be literally worthless - not even half a cent that it started at.


Yes, it's a 50%-50%, its a revolution or it becomes deprecated.

Do you really want to miss on such potential boat? Everyone not owning at least a couple Bitcoin is mentally insane, period.

Introductory statistics:  When dealing with problems having binary outcomes, like "you either become a gazillionaire or you don't" the odds aren't always 50/50.
Introductory linguistics & psychology:  "mentally insane" is redundant.  Only crazy people talk like that.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Paashaas on December 29, 2014, 06:11:07 PM
crypto currency is mainstream.

You are so wrong and needs a real reality check.


Oh no, another troll who whants to get in cheaper...


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: JimboToronto on December 29, 2014, 06:13:22 PM
November 2013 was the bubble which will never repeat again.

"The" bubble? Singular? LOL

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/JimboToronto/suds.jpg (http://s664.photobucket.com/user/JimboToronto/media/suds.jpg.html)

So many bubbles.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Meuh6879 on December 29, 2014, 08:29:39 PM
Bubble ?

http://ibankcoin.com/chessnwine/files/2013/07/funny-gif-bubble-soccer-footbal-child.gif

(where i can find this things ? :D )


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: magicmexican on December 29, 2014, 08:32:24 PM
tl;dr version - "cut ur loose"


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Wandererfromthenorth on December 29, 2014, 08:57:35 PM
Bitcoiners expect exponential rises to continue ad infinitum.
They don't care if at these prices it takes an amount of new fiat that is ridiculously higher than when it was at $1.
Don't bother considering problems with Proof-of-Work, the huge inflation and apparent inexistent current demand. Logic is for weak hands!
To 1 quadrillion we go.




https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6DQJ5GIIAAj6ec.png:large





Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: alexeft on December 29, 2014, 10:40:34 PM
Oh my! My ignore list is probably bigger than the blockchain itself!!!  :D :D :D

Anyone care to invest in it? (my ignore list that is!  ;D)


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: smoothie on December 29, 2014, 10:45:05 PM
People, you need a reality check. Most of you here are holding to a few BTC expecting to become millionaires some day. You are in a collective mass delusion - about 95% of you here.

Satoshi Nakamoto stated himself that with BTC there will be no middle way - it will absord the whole world's economy which is estimated to be around $100 trillion including the black markets. If this does not happen BTC will be literally worthless - not even half a cent that it started at.

Bitcoin has been around since 2009 , so we are entering the 6th year of its existence. How many years would it take for bitcoin to absorb the total global economy? 50 years ? 100 years ? I doesn't matter because it was just another fad like myspace with a limited lifespan - that opened the social media to the mainstream and gave us twitter and facebook. Bitcoin's historical significance will be that it launched the concept of crypto currency to the mainstream. It will not be worth $10,000 or $100,000 dollars anytime soon (read: never).

So those of you who are still in delusional states holding the BTC you bought at $700 or $900 dollars, cut your loses and get away as fast as you can. November 2013 was the bubble which will never repeat again. All this talk about ETF is rubbish, because it is already calculated into the price.

The time is running out for BTC , and I am 90% certain it will be worthless before 2020. It has accomplished its task - crypto currency is mainstream.

Those smart enough know that the only real purpose of BTC right now is as a vehicle for transaction of fiat money, without being exposed to the scrutiny of the government checks and the global banking system, they understand that bitcoin is not a commodity, not a store of value, and it never was - to them it doesn't matter if the price of one BTC is $1 or $100,000. It doesn't change anything.

Some of you are so emotionally attached to your stack of bitcoins that you will react in a violent emotional outrage at my post. Those of you who are more stable are starting to realize what the score is, and no mate your 10 BTC or your 100 BTC stack will not make you a $ millionaire, might as well go to Vegas and try your hand at becoming a millionaire there. You have better chances.

Sam

Cryptocurrency is mainstream? LOL

By the way, Facebook was founded in 2004, it didn't even have positive cash flow until 2009 (5 years later!). As of January 2014 they still had ONLY 1.2 billion active users (10 years later!) with a world population of about 8 billion....

"Easy" tech takes about 6 years for adoption. Bitcoin as of right now is "difficult" tech in many regards. Either way we haven't even reached 6 years yet. bitcoin's future is bright.

This is what I find entertaining about people who post about what they know pretty much nothing about. They say the stupidest things lol.

Cryptocurrency isn't mainstream ....yet. lol

LOL @ OP for the good laugh.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: smoothie on December 29, 2014, 10:46:27 PM
November 2013 was the bubble which will never repeat again.

"The" bubble? Singular? LOL


So many bubbles.

OP doesn't realize that was what was claimed after the June 2011 bubble. "It would never happen again".


Less than 2 years later....whoops!!  ::)


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: smoothie on December 29, 2014, 10:48:08 PM
Bitcoiners expect exponential rises to continue ad infinitum.
They don't care if at these prices it takes an amount of new fiat that is ridiculously higher than when it was at $1.
Don't bother considering problems with Proof-of-Work, the huge inflation and apparent inexistent current demand. Logic is for weak hands!
To 1 quadrillion we go.




https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6DQJ5GIIAAj6ec.png:large






Fiat currency is going to infinity ...(no limit)....so bitcoin will compensate for all of the new found created pulled out of their ass toilet paper in its price.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: BlindMayorBitcorn on December 29, 2014, 10:51:17 PM
Not until the insane bit inflation ends


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Lauda on December 29, 2014, 11:09:37 PM
Not until the insane bit inflation ends
It gets lower and lower with each halving.
Reward-Drop ETA: 2016-07-31 07:48:42 UTC (82 weeks, 5 days, 12 hours, 40 minutes)
It's coming sooner and sooner each day as the average block generation rate is under 10 minutes.

By then the adoption will be amazing as well.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: BlindMayorBitcorn on December 29, 2014, 11:23:02 PM
Not until the insane bit inflation ends
It gets lower and lower with each halving.
Reward-Drop ETA: 2016-07-31 07:48:42 UTC (82 weeks, 5 days, 12 hours, 40 minutes)
It's coming sooner and sooner each day as the average block generation rate is under 10 minutes.

By then the adoption will be amazing as well.

Have you started buying yet?


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: kaykawa on December 30, 2014, 12:03:59 AM
People who say everything is dead and everything is this and that.. and expect the worse.. You are the people who would do this same shitty system over and over again for your own advance.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on December 30, 2014, 02:37:00 AM
Not until the insane bit inflation ends
It gets lower and lower with each halving.
Reward-Drop ETA: 2016-07-31 07:48:42 UTC (82 weeks, 5 days, 12 hours, 40 minutes)
It's coming sooner and sooner each day as the average block generation rate is under 10 minutes.

By then the adoption will be amazing as well.

adoption will come in waves.

Bit inflation is now around 10% (annualised rate) and dropping. I.e. Already harder than some nation state fiat currencies.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Lauda on December 30, 2014, 07:34:23 AM
It gets lower and lower with each halving.
Reward-Drop ETA: 2016-07-31 07:48:42 UTC (82 weeks, 5 days, 12 hours, 40 minutes)
It's coming sooner and sooner each day as the average block generation rate is under 10 minutes.

By then the adoption will be amazing as well.
When will you stop buying?
FTFY.
adoption will come in waves.

Bit inflation is now around 10% (annualised rate) and dropping. I.e. Already harder than some nation state fiat currencies.
Indeed. The problem with the people here is that they complain, a lot. We have inflation, and they complain. If we had deflation, they would probably still complain.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Watoshi-Dimobuto on December 30, 2014, 08:40:41 AM
Bears are stupid because most of them start their graphs from the top of the bubble.

Bitcoin is growing and Bitcoin will grow. That is the reality. Price is a side effect.

95% of the people are not cheerleaders for bitcoin or anything. I am sure about that.
Make it 10%
Around 60% optimistic people
30% bearish with around 3% of them extremely bearish.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: BlindMayorBitcorn on December 30, 2014, 01:28:17 PM
It gets lower and lower with each halving.
Reward-Drop ETA: 2016-07-31 07:48:42 UTC (82 weeks, 5 days, 12 hours, 40 minutes)
It's coming sooner and sooner each day as the average block generation rate is under 10 minutes.

By then the adoption will be amazing as well.
When will you stop buying?
FTFY.
adoption will come in waves.

Bit inflation is now around 10% (annualised rate) and dropping. I.e. Already harder than some nation state fiat currencies.
Indeed. The problem with the people here is that they complain, a lot. We have inflation, and they complain. If we had deflation, they would probably still complain.

You started in April 2013. And you are buying now??

Also: the problem with the people here is also that they have no empathy :P


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Wandererfromthenorth on December 30, 2014, 01:45:41 PM
http://24.media.tumblr.com/b96bb892e1a98e9b306acde3cbd4bfc6/tumblr_mh93ha3XnP1qz6f9yo1_500.jpg


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: cbeast on December 30, 2014, 01:53:49 PM
Bitcoin is purely logical. That's why it's survived global assault from every nation for almost six years. Yes. It's that good. Ignorance loses.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Silverspoon on December 30, 2014, 01:58:30 PM
Not until the insane bit inflation ends
It gets lower and lower with each halving.
Reward-Drop ETA: 2016-07-31 07:48:42 UTC (82 weeks, 5 days, 12 hours, 40 minutes)
It's coming sooner and sooner each day as the average block generation rate is under 10 minutes.

By then the adoption will be amazing as well.

adoption will come in waves.

Bit inflation is now around 10% (annualised rate) and dropping. I.e. Already harder than some nation state fiat currencies.

You mean mony base inflation?  Bitcoin's is 12% (12% of all coins were printed mined this year).
If you mean the more conventional definition of inflation--price inflation--bitcoin's is over 100% (it takes more than double the coins to buy same goods/services now as opposed to a year ago).
Neither one of those numbers makes it a particularly attractive investment to me, how 'bout yourself?


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Silverspoon on December 30, 2014, 02:00:48 PM
Bitcoin is purely logical.

Kool Aid on sale again?


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: cbeast on December 30, 2014, 03:31:51 PM
Bitcoin is purely logical.

Kool Aid on sale again?
Can you disprove the math?


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: Silverspoon on December 30, 2014, 03:35:05 PM
Bitcoin is purely logical.

Kool Aid on sale again?
Can you disprove the math?

Clonecoin and scamcoin:  Can you disprove the math?


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: cbeast on December 30, 2014, 04:16:15 PM
Bitcoin is purely logical.

Kool Aid on sale again?
Can you disprove the math?

Clonecoin and scamcoin:  Can you disprove the math?
I have nothing against them if you've read my posts. They all have their place.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: btcxyzzz on December 30, 2014, 07:15:07 PM
Poor Sam, he is so so close-minded. Doesn't actually have a clue about the fact Bitcoin is the first real money in history of humankind.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: bornil267645 on December 31, 2014, 04:01:59 AM
Nobody is cheer-leading anything...we are just simply normal users trying to use an alt service.


Title: Re: Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality
Post by: a fool and his money ... on December 31, 2014, 09:14:16 AM
Bitcoin is the first real money in history of humankind.

false statement by all standards