Bitcoin Forum

Many newcomers to bitcoin question its 'killer application'. But bitcoin's key use has been here since its very inception -- the end of central banking and the unravelling of the nation state.

Three reasons why bitcoin will end the nation state:

1. Bitcoin is independant of our national economies.
2. Bitcoin is an untaxable money supply.
3. Bitcoin transitions the nature of violence.

BS! China and Russia banned it. It is taxable every where else, e.g. the USA.

1. Bitcoin, as a valued money, corresponds (at least, in part) to “meatspace” economic activity and, therefore, your “national economies.”

2. Transaction fees are a sort of tax, for they are demanded of any that participates in that economy for the supposed sake of its maintenance and “the greater good” of “the end of central banking.”

3. Violence transpires about conviction and a lack thereof: those of whom conviction has demanded violence will be moved to violence still; those of whom a lack thereof would permit them violence will persist in their yielding thereunto.

Sweet dreams my cosmopolitan friend. Isn't it?

Your "reasons" are wrong.

1. BTC isn't independent. It's speculative vehicle and its value basically pegged to fiat.
2. It's taxed everywhere except in countries where it's banned or still under the radar.
3. Violence is for resources. BTC is just yet another resource. No difference.

This argument is flawed... bigtime.

There isn't and I doubt there ever will be an "untaxable" money supply.

All these  reasons can't make bitcoin end.

Bitcoin may be a driving force where the productive can opt out and reallocate their wealth outside of the nation state. However, the nation state is hammering the nail in its own coffin by their spending and ill policies toward their citizens that will proffer alternatives to their present currencies.

If one could not realize its “value given but not yet received,” a currency would be economically meaningless.

Delusional to think a new technology can destroy a government.

1. The price fluctuates and speculators peg its value against the USD. However, the miner who creates new coins themselves, then spends those coins to buy goods, does not touch national currency. The bitcoin economy can, and does (but not always) operate independent of our national economies.

2. For the time being, countries have forced bitcoin into existing frameworks such as a property asset or a commodity. However, who does a miner pay taxes to when he conducts a transaction directly in bitcoin? There exist so many legal loopholes that trying to tax bitcoin as is, is essentially plugging holes in a sinking ship. The only way taxation would be levied effectively is through a supranational type of regulation (perhaps through technology itself rather than judicial) which would look nothing like our national taxation strategies.

3. Currency derives a large part of its value from the force capable of being inflicted or defended from its military force. Think about which military force creates the most violence in the world? When people are using a money supply which cannot be manipulated and money printed, the military industrial complex which these forces thrive on will wither up (not completely disappear), and experience a radical downsizing.

These 3 reasons, among others, are why bitcoin will end the nation state.


Delusional? Consider the technological innovation of gunpowder in feudal times. Organized religion was largely held as the governing body in these times, and we know what happened in the wake of this revolution. Technological developments created strong incentives to downsize governing institutions and lower their costs. A similar technological revolution is happening before our eyes, and is destined to downsize radically the nation state early in the new millennium.

But aren't these reasons why the powers that be will try squash or throttle it? If it's a threat to them and it's hard to tax they're not going to want to just sit back and let that happen.

At most, China and Russia will force it to go underground. This will cause the people to develop all kinds of new methods to bypass government, just so that they can survive.

As far as taxation and regulation go, call it what you will. But the sooner that people wake up to the truth that taxation and regulation of Bitcoin, is NOT really taxation and regulation of Bitcoin, but rather taxation and regulation of the people, the better off we all will be.

:)

1. Theoretically this is a good reason, but in practice almost all miners are dumping their coins for fiat (or hoarding those coins for dumping later) in the wake of a "dam lambo" (© Spoetnik) or just for paying their electricity bills.
2. Here in the UK as soon as you want to buy something with your BTC you have to pay VAT. CT, IT and CGT also applies, depending on your activities. I like your optimistic views, but unfortunately the taxman tends to be very resourceful.
3. At this moment the tip of the little finger of the military industrial complex worth more than the whole bitcoin economy. If you want to economically "overpower" them every satoshi should worth millions or billions of dollars. I'd like that, but to be frank such achievement seems to be quite unlikely. In addition the military industrial complex servicing a very real customer demand (everybody want to kill and/or plunder someone else) and since the first sharp sticks and stone axes proved to be very adaptive and tenacious :).

As long as a group of people can combine their resources to have more power than you, they will have more power than you.

The intention is to circumvent, not destroy governments.

The former is in the process of occurring, the latter is not a relative function.

Don't worry. All governments implode if they are not destroyed by some other governments, or their own citizens.

:)

Yes of course.

I was only addressing what Bitcoin is today, not the ramifications and future.

We don't know yet if Bitcoin is Napster though. Gnutella survived, Napster didn't.

printing press.

State media (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_media).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pravda

What most fail to understand is that what ever is said, reality can't be changed. You don't believe me? A few letters to prove my point : F.U.K.U.S.H.I.M.A. Reality is a "Wall" so hard that it's only possible to get trough it trough D.E.A.T.H. Nothing else. And apparently for 99.999999999999999% of us since the beginning of time, a one way street.

State Media = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musicians_of_the_RMS_Titanic

Understand that those under influence of what isn't real will end up doing - saying - believing tragic things for themselves first and foremost, example : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_them_eat_cake

But State Media doesn't have to be in reality denial... and who forces you to take their input for facts?

In the United States of America, IN GOD WE TRUST, but the press benefits from A1 too.

And more generally on the topic, bitcoin what ever the trust, is still as an innovation way way behind the Constitution of the United States of America and it's Bill of Rights.

I'm sorry but the guy in that video is either incredibly naive or completely delusional. There's absolutely no way that Bitcoin, in it's current form, will ever be anything more than an interesting curiosity to the masses. The blockchain technology is awesome but is not nearly enough or complete in and of itself. It will require a fair amount of genius-level designing and coding to take Bitcoin to the next level. And it doesn't look like that's gonna happen anytime soon. Unless Satoshi is quietly working on some next gen Bitcoin tech that addresses the flaws in his original work  :)

If people in general don't see a whole lot of advantages to Bitcoin, they will support the nation State no matter what Bitcoin attempts to do.

The only way that Bitcoin might destroy the nation State is a bad way. The government might figure out ways to use Bitcoin to destroy itself, because government officials have found ways to make slaves of the people using Bitcoin. Common people have never been very smart when it comes to seeing what is happening in government. If they were smart, they would have stopped police brutality long ago.

:)

This is going to get a bit heated on this thread methinks

Nation states simply need to be smaller and more libertarian.  :D
Having a secure option for alternative money is a great start.

Silly dreams. I haven't watched the video, a smart guy wouldn't make such a claim. Nation states can live without any kind of income tax. As long as there are land owners and people willing to pay to make sure streets are safe and clean, the nation state's future is safe.

But, the nation State would be a lot different if the monetary support that came to it was all voluntarily donated by totally free, voluntary giving, not required by contribution or tax.

:)