Bitcoin Forum

I want to know if anybody in the Bitcoin community think that Bitcoin is a big ponzi scheme like Bernie Madoff. If so please vote Yes or No. Also, please explain why you think that.

certainly not !!
can not be!

bitcoin seems more like a collective delusion.

this will explain you more :

http://www.zdnet.com/article/bitcoin-confidence-game-is-a-ponzi-scheme-for-the-21st-century/

http://www.garynorth.com/public/11828.cfm

Can't believe I actually read this whole bullshit.

Hate to be that guy, but this has been discussed numerous times on this board - use the search feature. I recall seeing several Legendary users weigh in on this subject in the past you might find some good information searching the board.

Edit: Grammar

Perhaps it would be better to explain what a ponzi is, then you will know the answer to your own question. Bitcoin can not be a ponzi because it lacks the properties required to be one. In a ponzi the crime is that the true value of the asset is hidden by the issuer. Bitcoin does not have an issuer and the price is on display for all to see at the exchanges.

I don't see how a vote will help clarify this. After all there was a time when a vote might have shown the Earth to be flat. But was it?

Ponzi scheme is paying earlier investors with the money received from new investors without actually investing. Bitcoin is more of an overvalued stock or a gamble for many (not even investment), so if you took a gamble and lost it doesn't necessary mean you've been scammed, right?

Yes yes, only Satoshi and a few others profited from this scheme in the beginning.

All the latecommers got the dick shaft up the anus.  We all got Goxed, Stamped, (Enter fail word here).

http://www.cjoint.com/15jv/EAepnnKffPU_bitcoin-ponzi.jpg

If you're still on the BTC Train, get off now before you fall off the cliff to oblivion.




P.S. - Tongue planted firmly in cheek

voted no it doesn't bear enough characteristics of a ponzi to be called one but mining makes it sort of ponzi like in that constant influx of new fiat is needed for it not to fail

Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme. Bitcoin doesn't have central authority.

Total voters : 32
Yes : 6 ( Bernie Madoff supporters )

Why do you think bitcoin is a ponzi scheme ?

All bitcoiners must get back to remember why bitcoins was invented. free from governement control free from established control decentralized. bitcoin for the people by the people

Voted no. Bitcoin is essentially a technology! Would you say the Internet is a ponzi scheme?  :D

Anyone who has actually bothered to look at the way Bitcoin works and used it will tell you no, the people claim it is are making statements from ignorance, if you actually get them to explain their arguments you will regularly find they have absolutely no understanding of Bitcoin or the blockchain technology it is built on that makes it so unique.

Oh yeah and the people who claim it's a ponzi scheme also clearly don't understand what a ponzi scheme actually is either.

Thank you for these very balanced articles that go into such depth on how Bitcoin really is an entirely new technology! NOT :D

Blockchains will be used for all kinds of things in the future this is just the beginning.

lol..same here!! Im not buyin that article at all!

Voted Yes.

I like poisoning the results of poorly thought out and researched polls.

Answer: No.
Explanation: You're a fool.

If your thinking Bitcoin is ponzi then you need to not bother with it and go elsewhere. If you know nothing about bitcoin then youtube and bitcointalk and much reading you need to do. Bitcoin is far from poniz or it would of gone a long time ago like the millions of ponzis and payment stuff that went into vapour. Once you read about bitcoin and you learn more about it you will understand its greater power.

NO

Anyone that believes that Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme does not know what a Ponzi scheme is.



Bitcoin is 100% transparent and does not have an operator. By definition, it cannot be a Ponzi scheme.

Not a Ponzi scheme.  Just a technology majority used by scammers and fraudsters solely because of its anonymity and transparency.  Big difference, but the end result is essentially the same.

No more than the fiat system...

to me its just a  giant atm  machine  that  planet earth chooses to use or not. even if  u get in late and get dumped on,ur coin still has value, it can still do good shit.

Guys please keep the conversation coming. I really want to know what everyone think about bitcoin.  Also, username (mayax) you owe me 2 bitcoins for wasting my time reading two stupid articles.

For the rest of you guys THANK YOU and KEEP the conversation coming. Love you ALL

12P1pvUj1biaGGEGVURqBb8bJNdk7a4zmJ

Bitcoin is not anonymous. Also you are saying scammers use bitcoin because of its transparency? That makes zero sense. In raw dollar figures something like 99% of scams, frauds and ponzis are in fiat. I saw on the news the other day a forex company disappeared with 10 billion USD of funds. That is more than the worth of ALL bitcoins put together.

So much misinformation around the forums these days :D

No!
Not a Ponzi, but we do struggle with the issue of "huge riches for the early whales" and people discussing the need for "new money" to come in soon.

In the world of cybercrimes, it is a LOT more transparent and anonymous than using any other form of money transfer.  Fiat is a moot point in this discussion.  We're talking about cyber technology, and this is why bitcoin has become a safe haven for fraudsters and scammers alike.   Let's not live in a dream world here...about half the threads in the for sale section, large IPO'S, and loan sections are potential or already exposed scams.  Why?

Silkroad v1 and v2? lol

Because the scammer can just generate a new bitcoin address with the click of a mouse button, and get paid instantly and cash out without a single trace of information regarding their name, address, or location.    How many of the scammers on here have been caught and prosecuted? lol

And there is ZERO recourse for them scammed.  Sure, they can go on a witchhunt trying to piece together IP locations and make an educated guess...but the bitcoin blockchain isn't going to refund them.  And local authorities will laugh at them.  

It's basically a western union moneygram with much greater anonymity. At least with moneygrams, you still have to provide identification and legitimate documentation. With proxies or a shared computer, scammers can basically leave a non existent paper trail with bitcoin.


And that includes people that we trust the most (exchanges).  So basically, if you can't trust exchanges or a fellow peer on a forum (because you don't even really know who they are)...what good is bitcoin?

At least with a local bank you can choose which ones are FDIC insured and backed by the government so you can get your money back in the event of a heist.

Fiat isn't a moot point you said most scammers use bitcoin and I just explained to you that most scams are in fiat. And you're on this forum why?

Was your counterpoint supposed to be some refreshing revelation? Of course fiat would be first, because it's also the most widely used and accepted form of payment worldwide.   Again, I'm referring to cyber crimes...or are we not on an internet forum?  I'd also go on to argue it's probably one of the most rampant forms of payment used in scams on a percentage basis (based on how many are out in circulation) of any other cyber payment used, for those same points I noted earlier.


I'm on here for the same reason you are.  To share ideas/discuss.  Oh, I forgot.  Anyone against your 'agenda' isn't welcome, amirite?  Nothing like a pump shiller dictatorship. :)

Shelter companies and offshore bank accounts would have way more money in them from the proceeds of cybercrime than the worth of all the bitcoin put together. I can see by a quick glance at your post history you are here to tell everyone how bad bitcoin is. Have fun with that :)

I'm actually here to open eyes from all the blind one-sided shilling and nonsensical posts that's rampant on this forum. 

BTW, I still have some BTC holdings. 

But coolstorybro.  Your agenda is pretty clear from your sig.  Self promotion is so hawt right now.

lol

Bitcoin is like a ponzi scheme.
No new comers, the price is falling ,right?

More new comers, the price is raising :)  same for HYIPs. they last as long there are new comers.
Yes, the Bitcoin system itself can last but useless if nobody is using it.
When there will not be any new fouls to "invest" in Bitcoin, the system will collapse.
The exchangers will not be interested to accept and then....death :)

Now, Bitcoin is used for cyber crimes and speculative investment(short period of time).

Seriously are you guys getting paid for this or something? I don't see why people would waste their life on a forum just to trash talk something all day.

There more people using bitcoin than ever before and the price of a bitcoin is irrelevant when it comes to the technology.

ponzi because once the buying stops we see bearmarkets like this

So by your reasoning the USD is a ponzi too? Forex markets work the same way.

except other commodities don't suffer such high inflation while being sold as hedge against inflation and equivalent to gold. I think the marketing for btc is fraudulent/missleading so yes it's a ponzi.

Ponzi refers to a scheme OP

so your post is so effectively

painting itself as rubbish

because Bitcoin is an idea

You seem vexed.

only Paybase and Paycoin is a Ponzi (see your sig  ;D! )

-------

Wikipedia defines a ponzi scheme in the following way:

"A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent. The perpetuation of the high returns requires an ever-increasing flow of money from new investors to sustain the scheme."

Now let's see if that fits bitcoin:
-Does bitcoin have central authority? No.
-Does bitcoin pay returns to its investors? No.
-Does bitcoin require an ever increasing flow of money to sustain it? No.

Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme. It's a true innovation in computer science and solves a well known problem called the Byzantine Generals problem.

It's a new type of monetary system based on mathematics and rare numbers. That's why it's a game changer. That's why we see 5-10 million investments to bitcoin startups every week. It has nothing to do with a Ponzi scheme.

---------

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/world-bank-bitcoin-not-ponzi-scheme/

Bitcoin will not collapse if nobody "invests". It does not need investors. It works well regardless of the value of a bitcoin.

bitcoin not ponzi, bitcoin is invesment  ;D

Are you a fucking moron? Do you even know what inflation means? I think these guys must be paid trolls to come up with crap like this, Bitcoin can't be inflated because it is limited to 21 million coins, you aren't even using the word inflation correctly, if anything it's a deflationary currency, not that you'd know the difference. I wonder if people from the somethingawful forum decided to make some accounts here to come and mess with people here, the people posting this bullshit are acting like Bitcoin insulted their mothers somehow.

what you mean with "works well" ?

if nobody investing(come with new money in system), who will use it then? :)
please explain. let's say you want to "sell" your bitcoin. to whom will you do it?

Bubble conditions of any good or stock take on many traits of a ponzi scheme as described here.

You can sell it to those that already accept bitcoin

Do you not see the difference between a ponzi scheme and bitcoin that works eventhough there is no incoming money?

Its better if more join in but it still WORKS without new people having to constantly buy more. ponzy schemes dont work at all if there is no incoming money.

how can you call btc deflationary when coins are still being produced at a rate faster than most central banks print money. coin limit is kind of irrelevant as it wont be reached til long after all of us are dead.

So you're saying to me that within a month there is more Bitcoin mined than dollars printed? Do you have any maths to back that up? Because I happen to know you are also full of shit if you're claiming that. There's a reason that the Bitcoin price is so high and it isn't that Bitcoin is valuable, it's that the dollar is so worthless, the central banks are printing stupid amounts of paper each month, Bitcoin and precious metals are simply honestly reflecting how much printing is going on.

How about actually reading what people with far more knowledge than you write and do some research on the subject instead of just mindlessly ranting against something you know nothing about?

11 yeses and 65 nos add up to 76 votes that think that Bitcoin is so a [P]onzi scheme like Bernie Madoff, albeit I must've been living in a cave on El-Adrel IV all my life, for this is the first time I've heard of Bernie Madoff being referred to as a Ponzi scheme. I have heard that some dude having the same namesake operated a Ponzi scheme though, but if 76 people to date state otherwise, then I must be mistaken.

BTW, this is about the half-dozenth time I seen a thread started by a newbie asking basically the same question, close to the same amount of times I seen new threads by others asking what's the best mining hardware to purchase because they just fell into a pile of cash and have free electricity.  ::)

then Bitcoin should not be related to fiat currency at all.
Imagine that you have an online store who is selling laptops and you accept bitcoin.

you already "bought" these laptops from a manufacturer with 1000 usd each and you want to sell with 1500 each.

You see that the bitcoin price is 1BTC = 270 USD and you set 5 BTC for one laptop.
someone is buying one laptop with 5 BTC BUT you as a business(company) needs to pay your bills(gas, salaries, electricity) too and nobody is accepting Bitcoin. You will want to get cash for your 5 BTC.

You will have to find an exchanger and when you want to exchange...surprise !.
5 BTC = 900 USD because the Bitcoin price fell. :)

you have loss even you did your work very good.

Bitcoin is a speculative bubble — that is, a special kind of fad, a mania for holding an asset in expectation of its appreciation.

I think it is more like a speculative tech stock than a ponzi scheme.

Many early investors got in cheap but they had a very high risk of ruin. Once Bitcoin became successful they were richly rewarded but, in tech, you see the 1 success not the 9999 failures. For every Microsoft or Google millionaire, there are 5 pets.com paupers.

ok

but this has nothing to do with if bitcoin is a ponzi or not.. which is what you asked

and I dont think bitcoin is a fad, I think it is still in the very early stages and can really become the (or one of the biggest) global currencies with no borders. (also help the unbanked).

Is it speculative? yes
a ponzi? no

BTC has its own ecosystem, not like Ponzi which requires outside money.

https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_currency_in_circulation
http://www.coindesk.com/data/bitcoin-total-circulation/

8.55% more $ in circulation than a year ago and 12% more btc

but that couple of % points difference isnt that much of a big deal the main difference is that the newly created out of thin air dollars don't get dumped on international exchanges at any price because someone needs to pay an electricity bill in a different currency


so much more knowledgeable than me but couldn't figure out when the guy said inflation he obviously meant mining

whats up with everyone on this forum getting annoyed when you point out obvious things in plain english. btc is not deflationary. the coin limit has no bearing on the value now and things are likely to get worse for at least a couple more halvings unless we get lucky and some bored billionaires help out. not personally sold a single coin because i'm a degenerate gambler at heart but thats something else.

Such threads are why I miss the newbie jail.

I'm not vexed just annoyed by all the sockpuppets here saying things that ARE NOT TRUE. If anyone represents something false as true it annoys me no matter what the subject matter is.

World Bank says bitcoin is not a ponzi scheme https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/world-bank-bitcoin-not-ponzi-scheme/


This is also true bitcoin is first and foremost a technology. People buying bitcoin has zero effect on the technology of the blockchain functioning as it should. The idea of blockchain is a primary technological innovation.

You haven't even done the maths right, which is why I seriously object when I see even professional journalists making the classic mistake of using percentages, the point is it's several hundred billion dollars that has no limit vs an absolute hard cap of 21 million coins, in this case, the percentage means nothing. Also, you're completely ignoring the fact that not only will there have been billions of new bills printed but also that there will be billions more in bonds and digital numbers created constantly compared to Bitcoin where again the hard limit is only 21 Million.

A limitation on the money supply always affects the price, that is why precious metals have always been worth more aside from their applications in industries, also you and a number of people when discussing economics don't write in plain english, you blatantly make up bullshit and when you get it wrong you make up for it with complicated vocabulary you don't understand in order to cover it up.

Yet again people like you prove that you have absolutely no understanding of how currencies are created or how the overall supply affects the price.

The poll results are basically equivalent to asking "Are you a troll?" Yes: 15%

who said something about the Bitcoin tech? it's like you said "that HYIPs is using PHP for its website". So what? PHP is used for many application.

Bitcoin system is a bubble as it is now. Yes, there are a lot of interests around it because some people make a lot of money from new comers but it's a bubble in the end. :)

That's why "you" need to appear in the news, conferences and so on.

What would this "blockchain " without the new so called "investors", without money? why do you need the Bitcoin to be "traded"?
make  1 BTC = 1 USD and done. no price fluctuation :)

No, you need the price fluctuation in order to get new fouls otherwise will be like any other e-currency.

bitcoin is not a ponzi
its a kind of paying method
every method can go  higher or deep

php is a relatively old technology and people who participate in HYIP's run from php script scam websites do not participate in php technology in the same way bitcoin users do with the blockchain. The blockchain has many uses and is still in its infancy. A php script scam website is not participating in changing technology in any way whatsoever. Bitcoin services, major investments in many bitcoin projects, and the blockchain itself is an unprecedented technology.

Charles Hoskinson says Bitcoin-related technology is about to revolutionise property rights, banking, remote education, private law and crowd-funding for the developing world. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97ufCT6lQcY

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnvillasenor/2014/05/12/the-future-of-innovation-five-things-we-can-learn-from-bitcoin/

https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

There are much more articles out there but I am not going to waste any more time on this joke of a thread.

There are many uses for bitcoin blockchain.

I don't need to appear in the news at all. Bitcoin is a decentralized technology and no one individual owns it. If you are thinking of bitcoin as a company shows how little you understand it. It is nothing "like any other e-currency" at all.

The technology has everything to do with it. Bitcoin is at its core an unprecedented technology and even the World Bank agrees it is not a Ponzi but of course you must be right  ::)

Bitcoin as technology is OK but Bitcoin advertisers want more than a software platform. They want to make money by saying that Bitcoin can replace money. How can replace money when Bitcoin is LIMITED?  what happens next?
2000 people own 75% of all the Bitcoins. Who are these people? tell me that are miners and "investors"  hahaha
Yes, "you" Bitcoin fans you need to appear in the news otherwise new comers won't come and where will you sell your "precious" Bitcoin? :)

A "currency" was created out of thin air and now people are spending funds for one reason: the belief that some other fool will pay more for it later.

Little by little it will just atrophy, because nobody is really using it. The big kids will get out, and the little guy sitting on one, two, or, sadly, many more bitcoins will lose it all.

Bitcoin is "attracting hundreds of startup companies and over $100 million in venture capital investments" http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnvillasenor/2014/05/12/the-future-of-innovation-five-things-we-can-learn-from-bitcoin/

This is because of its potential and use cases as an unprecedented technology.

Bitcoin is divisible down to a satoshi or 0.00000001 BTC so this problem has already been solved http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/114/what-is-a-satoshi It could even be divided down further if necessary ;)

As adoption keeps growing I agree that hopefully bitcoin will, and should, become more evenly spread amongst more users. I am not sure of the exact statistics right now off the top of my head. But it is important to note that barely any of the coins Satoshi originally mined have been touched which seems to show he was not motivated by money.

The Internet was created out of thin air too and look at the role it plays in our lives now. Early risk takers who invested heavily in the Internet also received great rewards for their vision. For example Elon Musk and Paypal ;)

Ironically, that 'Paybase' -- with which you are debasing your credibility by whoring out your sig space -- shows all the classic evidence of being a Ponzi.

Sorry, LaudaM. If I gotta bust kingcolex's chops for advertising a Ponzi in their sig, I gotta bust yours too. Have you really looked into the GawMiners empire that you are shilling, or do you really value your credibility that lowly?

I agree that far too many people are spending too much time worrying about the price. Whether a bitcoin is worth $1 or $1000, it works the same way.

But, I would like to address the "created out of thin air" issue that people like to bring up. The fact is that all money is created out of thin air -- even gold. The difference between Bitcoin (and gold) and fiat currencies is that while they are all "created out thin air", the supply of bitcoins is not unlimited. This is an important advantage because the the value of a bitcoin cannot be diluted to nothing, unlike fiat currencies.

you should ask yourself who are those who are controlling Bitcoin. Make 1 BTC = 1 USD and nobody will use it. I know it has started from almost zero but these days are gone now.

The only thing that it gives Bitcoin value, it is the perception.

Someone owns "coins" and he wants that this Bitcoin to have value in order to sell it for USD. :)  it's very simple.

There is a gang who is controlling the system even it's saying it is decentralized

Bistamp is related with Ripple, Bitcoin Foundation and others. Their shareholders are shareholders for many other bitcoin companies.

i think they will cover the loss because the scandal will be TOO BIG and it will involve all these companies and Bitcoin will crush.

So, they are a gang who is manipulating the market how they want and each of them are taking a piece of the cake named Bitcoin.
Proofs are everywhere : fake transactions, bitcoin price is given by few companies who are controlled by the same people.

Bitfinex, Coinbase + other many small exchangers are related with Bitstamp. Bitstamp is processing their orders.

You must be blind to not see these facts OR you don't want to see because you take advantage of this situation.

Why do you need new comers and why all this buzz in media if you don't really need new comers with new funds? :)

That goes for anything. What's so fucking hilarious is that people think scraps of paper have innate value.

the paper money have intrinsic value. your gov give value,the assets, the whole economy is based on the paper money.

Who gives value to Bitcoin? Propaganda and the new fools.

Bitcoin is developed allowing the creator and his friends to easily mine approx 1/3rd of the total potential supply before going public.
Bitcoin start trading and immediately jump in price due to limited supply.
Many fools jump on the bandwagon buying expensive hardware to mine  given the high price per BTC.

Many websites appear that add the tag exchanges to them to give the air of authority that suck in entrants by producing graphs and data that gives the illusion of rising prices and volume of trading when in reality they are nothing more than Ponzi scams

I don't understand how it could be a ponzi?  From what I understand about Ponzi's isn't it when you get people to invest, and pay people back with the invested money from other people?

On top of that, I don't understand why people like to do Ponzi's, they don't gain anything from them?  Technically speaking if they give back all of the money they invested to the early people, they don't gain anything from it.  Most of the time I realize they probably steal money from people but an honest ponzi the owner wouldn't make a dime.

That's the truth but greed and a quick buck/BTC is worth the crazy risk.

That greed is seen by the people who want to use Bitcoin to get rich quick but it's definitely not a ponzi scheme

The first bitcoin developer Satoshi himself has barely touched his mined coins. So that doesn't really support your theory ...

The bitcoin ecosystem, as a decentralized phenomenon has grown organically over time.

I would say the growth of bitcoin can be seen as a process of emergence from complex adaptive systems theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

"Goldstein initially defined emergence as: "the arising of novel and coherent structures (e.g bitcoin), patterns (e.g blockchain) and properties (e.g uses of bitcoin and blockchain) during the process of self-organization (e.g growth of mining and bitcoin ecosystem) in complex systems (e.g internet and technological change)".

New investors do not pay off old investors to enter bitcoin, therefore it is not a ponzi scheme.

Something like the U.S. Social Security retirement program is a ponzi scheme.

Why should anyone listen to you? You have demonstrated that you don't know what a Ponzi scheme is, you don't know what "intrinsic value" means, and you really don't know very much about Bitcoin. What do you know about? Maybe you should stick to that.

Lol. A jug of fresh, drinkable water has more "intrinsic value" than a ton of printed paper  ;D



Let me ask you a question. Do you think that stocks are Ponzi scams? What about IPOs, where the owners can "easily mine approx 1/3rd of the total potential supply before going public"?

Stock market IPOs are actually a 100% premine in fiat  ;D So far cryptocurrency is the only radically alternative wealth distribution model that has worked.

Lol, true that. In this light it really sounds like an awful proposition  ;D

are you happy if I use "speculative bubble or collective delusion"  instead of ponzi? :)

Bitcoin foundation is the key and its founder, Satoshi Nakamoto, who is estimated to have mined 1 million bitcoins in the currency’s early days. His stash is spread across many wallets. He pocketed the early bitcoins and laughed.. ha ha ha

47 individuals own 28.9% of the approximately 12 million Bitcoins in existence so far. Another 880 own 21.5%, meaning 927 people control half of the entire market cap of the digital currency. Another 10,000 individuals control about a quarter.

And the rest  (around a million) get the crumbs (700,000 are out of circulation, whether through government seizure or people losing their passwords).  

So, you are not so many people. around of 1 mil all together. With all your propaganda, advertising and many other things ONLY 1 mil. people. I think Zeek Rewards had more members without any conference and media :))

Question: why didn't the Bitcoin foundation gave to any Bitcoin wallet a fix amount of bitcoins at the time they started this ....project? why do you need the fiat currency if you say that it's so bad? :)

For every arbitrary youtube vid/article you quote in your one-sided shill argument, I could quote another 10 negative articles outlining why this is no more than a speculative bubble that will soon collapse.

Look.  I'm not doubting that the bitcoin fundamentals were quite impressive.  In an 'idealistic' society, it would have flourished 10-100 fold by now, and perhaps been the next 'tablet computer' of payment processing.

However, majority of the technology fell into the wrong hands, casting a negative cloud over it that could not and cannot be remedied.

Every single one of the biggest and supposedly most trusted exchanges all go down due to hacks/scams...new coin ipo scams galore, and basically every other perspective new start up involving some form of scamming in one way or another.

Then there's Silkroad 1 and 2. 

I'm not even going to include the amount of p2p scamming that goes on on an individual basis on forums either. 

With all this negative press, do you think any new large scale corporations are going to actually spend time and money to implement it? Come on dude, this is common sense.  Take off your rose colored blinders.  Without new adoption...it's going nowhere...unless you're happy with just trading worthless coins to joe bloe in India like hoarding Farmville money...maybe that's your thing.

You're in denial man.  It's a burning/sinking ship..and it will take you down with it.  So be it though.  So long as you're 'happy' with the fundamentals, it shouldn't matter if you lose every penny you spent, amirite? That's a great way of looking at things though :) 

Of course I am, because an speculative bubble and a Ponzi scheme are not the same thing. Like, at all.



At the time Nakamoto pocketed his million coins he didn't laugh because guess what: they weren't worth a damned piece of shit. The only thing he did was launch an open experiment of a new kind of sound, digital money. He published a paper (http://nakamotoinstitute.org/bitcoin/) explaining how it all worked. He released the node's code (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin). You could talk to him, spot bugs, send him patches. You could mine for worthless coins. At this stage just a handful of crypto-anarchists played with them as if they were exchanging peas or little river stones with each other. During roughly these first 2 years they were worth ZILCH, you can check it yourself (https://blockchain.info/charts/market-price?timespan=all&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=). After all this time the coins started to gain some slight value due to sheer public interest, but before this point you could get a shitload of 'em for free using your crappy computer's CPU or simply asking "pretty please".

I don't know if he actually envisioned any of this and I guess we'll never know, but he was clearly not "premining valuable coins to dump them to idiots on day 1". Of course, this is actually the case of most other altcoins, whose creators just prey on fresh get-rich-quick fools who feel like they missed the Bitcoin train.



http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/behold-the-field-in-which-i-grow-my-fucks.jpg



Why? Because SN was a God-like creature and not a dumbass troll as you are, that's why. If all wallets started with some coins in it then bitcoins would not be sound money and they'd still be worth nothing 6 years on (if they still existed at all). Alternatively, if only the X first wallets had coins in it then early adopters could have just created lots of them an claim most coins either way. Not that you can't create such an altcoin if you feel so inclined...

Riiiiight, because you didn't get a handwritten invitation to participate you think you've been buttfucked without lube. Paper went public 2 months before the genesis block dumbass.

I only have other opinion than you, libertarian. :) chill !

You said "wallets started with some coins in it then bitcoins would not be sound money" then it was created to bring profit right? Good. that means this "legendary" person, SN(who can be a kind from Ukraine or Abu Abas from Libya) pocked some millions of Bitcoin, waiting to raise its value and then he sold. it seems fair :)

you, as a little bunny that you are, are thinking that someone wants you to get rich overnight and he created a monetary system where everybody will be a Trump with many patootles  :)) pffff.
Please do not smoke so much...

 You are part of the craptocoins hoarders wait for the dust to settle and noobs to be encouraged once more into buying as the price is stable and then repeat the dump and crash several times more.

There's been a surge of legitimate bitcoin adoption in the last year according to the figures.

I love the technology and I know it will survive so I don't even think there is a sinking ship to worry about ;)

Someone did a study and the overwhelming majority of transactions were for legitimate purposes.

People are investing millions in bitcoin startups and infrastructure now precisely because it has shrug off the "dark net" associations you refer to. That was a big issue maybe 2 years ago but not anymore.

The negative press doesn't mention that over a 2 year period bitcoin has probably been the best investment on the planet. Sure it's hard a hard year. Nothing's perfect I don't have rose colored glasses I've just seen it all before, and I know that right now bitcoin is still maturing at a phenomenal rate considering the newness of the tech. People were saying bitcoin won't go anywhere when it was worth $1 and people are still saying it now. Nothing's changed in that department ;)

There are also decentralized exchange solutions like XCP that don't rely on a centralized exchange. Ripple also has an interesting solution to this problem. Sure it's still new technology whoever doesn't think that is blind. But that also means it has a long way to go and considering it's age it's nothing short of phenomenal as far as new technologies go.

I also think the fact more and more people keep using and developing with bitcoin even with the hacks and scandals shows the real staying power of the idea of bitcoin. I see the glass half full you see it half empty that's all ;)

If bitcoin ever did have the crash you refer to I would buy as many as possible that's for sure.

EDIT: I think I read somewhere that with current mining tech / costs it is not worth selling bitcoins for less than $200 so I would be very suprised if it did go sub 200. If there was a big shrug off of mining infrastructure as a result of sub $200 coins I would be buying a lot. Bitcoin would be back if that ever happened. But people will refuse to sell for less than $200 and I find it extremely unlikely. It is a black swan event (highly unlikely catastrophic scenario).

K, whatever. I made my point. Have you already corrected your poll vote? Now, repeat after me: "Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme"...

"the negative press doesn't mention that over a 2 year period bitcoin has probably been the best investment on the planet"

Please tell that to Bitinstant, MTgox's clients who lost their funds.
I didn't mention P2P scams or the small exchangers who scammed.

Bitcoin is mainly use for fishy things even you don't see that.
You are all together around of 1 MIL persons even you had a big propaganda. A such a small "world" but with 2 BIG incindent Silk road 1, 2

50% fake transactions last year.
the exchangers are making fake transactions too(a lot) and they manipulate the Bitcoin price.

add the fear of hacking and you will have the whole picture of what you call, Bitcoin

these are facts. Bitcoin is only a speculative bubble and it will sink soon.

Sure I feel sorry for those people. I'm a decent human being. But I also believe in the staying power of bitcoin.

As for the rest of your post it it unsubstantiated and false facts ;)

Do you pester any other forums devoted to talk about other speculative bubbles such as real estate, stock market, forex or commodities or is this the only one?

Haha... hahah... hahahahahhaah - Such misconception. I don't even know where to start. Let's try, shall we?


Well, at least it's defensible. As opposed to your earlier characterization, which was an all-out impossibility. I don't for a moment agree with it, but you might be able to defend it. Let's see how you make out...


#1 - the Bitcoin Foundation and Satoshi Nakamoto have exactly zero relationship. None. nada. zilchomundo.

#2 - Are you aware that the Bitcoin Foundation has no official power over Bitcoin? It is merely a trade association that was instituted by a cabal long after Bitcoin was spat out into the wild.


#3 - I think the best estimates indicate Satoshi likely has somewhere around 960,000 BTC - I'll grant you a 96% for effort on this bit.

#4 - laughing? reason for this claim? So far, nobody has detected any move on Satoshi's part to cash out any of this vast wealth. While you can draw your own conclusions in regards to this, you should at least agree it demonstrates a lack of hilarity -- nay, it demonstrates an attitude of seriousness -- on his/her/their part.


#5 - And you draw these conclusions from -- what -- exactly? Surely someone so self-assured knows that there is not a 1:1 correlation between addresses and individuals?


#6 - because the Bitcoin Foundation did not exist at the time this ... project ... was started.

#7 - because all the bitcoins that the Bitcoin Foundation owns are those donated to them.

#8 - because the actual number and existence of bitcoin wallets is unknowable.

#9 - because exactly zero bitcoin wallets existed at the time this ... project ... was started.

#10 - because there is no fixed number of bitcoin wallets to number of individuals.

#... oh screw it.

Ball's in your court....

Probably not. The same kind of people who said the Internet was Evil and will never go anywhere  :D

NO (But I assume newbies are not allowed to vote)

no HYIP(ponzi) admits what it is until it is down :)

Clearly isnt this has been discussed many times, if bitcoin is a ponzi that would mean gold/housing most things in life are a ponzi.  Words lose all meaning.

Yes, in order to describe fully the way in which bitcoin is a ponzi, you have to stretch definitions such that basically any government fiat would fit much more aptly to the description. If the common herd had the first clue about money in the first place, bitcoin would be a no-brainer sell as "less ponzi-like than the USD"

I hate to admit, but you are completely right. Still, hopefully the tech fundamentals of Bitcoin are strong enough to overcome in these early years issues and difficulties.

So, here's an entry in the "spot the bigger ponzi" contest, article over a year old, but holding many uncomfortable truths....

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article39311.html

Can someone please explain how Bitcoin would be a ponzi?  The whole idea of a ponzi is you get money as a guarantee and its sold as an investment, has Bitcoin ever done anything like that?  I am just confused?

It's been discussed time and time again in this forum, Bitcoin by definition cannot be a Ponzi scheme.

There's no central operator at the top that up and vanished, unless you consider Satoshi that guy with his unspent stash.

Bitcoin by it's nature is decentralized, meaning no one central authority or organization or operator runs it or owns it.

There's no Madoff or no crooks involved laughing in Tahitit having Mai tai's.

There's alot of other things that tick the checkboxes debunking Bitcoin being a ponzi scheme, but the decentralized aspect is really all you need to know.

This is the problem. 2014 was actually a great year for Bitcoin. It is accepted all over the world, millions of dollars went into Bitcoin VC's and loads of new and useful apps that help Bitcoin were developed. Yet the price seemed to consistently trend generally downwards, why?  

My opinion atm is the following.

1. 10% inflation is quite a lot in a bear market. Most of the new coins that are mined need to be quickly sold to recoup costs that means it eats away $1 million of the BTC buy wall a day at the current CAP. Easy to overcome in high demand times but not so in a bear market. (LiteCoin with 3X more inflation (30%) fell perhaps uncoincidentally 3X more than Bitcoin last year.)

2. VOLATILITY - This is the big one and unfortunately what makes Bitcoin non viable imo. Businesses work on tight margins and they can't hold Bitcoin due to it's volatility, therefore a sale in crypto becomes a sale of crypto.
When we were all hoarding Bitcoin with little to spend it on, there was not a lot coming up for sale. New demand had to chase new coins.  However now people use it to buy millions of dollars of goods a month. As stated though most businesses sell it immediately for fiat. Imagine if every time you went into a shop, the shop instead of circulating your dollars had to sell them for Yen.
As a sale in crypto is a sale of crypto, I just don't think it's viable. This is what we're seeing at the moment imo - the more utility crypto gains the more sell pressure is created.

This is the main reason I've taken an interest in decentralized stable asset alternatives & I'm essentially a BitShares evangelist. Besides having a decentralized exchange which solves a lot of the BitStamp/Gox type problems, I really think stable assets will transform crypto in 2015.

Ponzi is possible for things where market value is fixed. When bitcoin used to spread, it had zero value. And its value appreciates with more adoption. So, it is against the basic concept of ponzi where the root gains value from its branches.

OMFG, trees are natures ponzi schemes.... burn them all!!!!!