Bitcoin Forum

I'm looking many years into the future. I see people get their salary in BTC and all goods are priced in BTC. Could the bitcoin price then be considered to be the constant true measure of value on our planet, like the speed of light in the universe? Instead of comparing BTC to dollar we would compare dollar to BTC. The BTC value would be an infinite flat line. Some would say: "How can you hold dollars, it fluctuates too much and looses value every day". Even gold would fluctuate due to supply and demand. Could Bitcoin (or other cryptocurrency) hypothetically be the universal reference if we pass some crucial point of usage volume? Is it even possible or do I misunderstand something?

What is the best reference of value today? What is most constant in supply and demand and not controlled by an organization (country)?

“[T]he universal reference” (Joohansson) would be what its observer most “demand[𝗌].”

You can use any kind of money (or any commodity or any kind of good or service really) to count and measure value. You use money because it is liquid, meaning it is sellable, meaning you can exchange just about anything for it. You can use your local currency as an approximation of value, if you are happy with its stability, if not, you use dollars or gold.

However, there is not really anything that can measure value correctly and definitely. That is because money's value is also decided internally in everyone's head, and is expressed as a price in the market. Value can only be decided by individuals, for themselves, as some amount of X being more valuable as some other amount of Y. Using that valuation, you can go to the market and decide if an offer is to your advantage.

That would be time I guess.
All the money of the world without time is useless.

Ok I guess it's more complicated than I thought. Bitcoins is at least one of few things on earth that converge to a known constant amount over time. It should be a better candidate of value reference compared to diamonds or something else that both can be created artificially and change value due to supply and demand. I still think that if everyone on earth used the same medium of value transfer (Bitcoins) it would stabilize over time with some kind of average of everyone's mind.

Could you please explain that a bit further? Sounds interesting!

Well last week I came up with a new theory that time equals energy but we have difficulty really understanding it because of our biological nature.

To put it simple: Everyone wants to live forever.
(almost) Everyone want unlimited time to do all the nice things on their wishlist.
So, TIME is what all observers on this planet wants most.
It is wise to save some time/energy in another form for the moment you are not able to produce enough to survive anymore.
Some people save dollars, other save gold, others save stocks, other save bitcoin.
But many people do that because they know their productive life will run out and they will be dependent on something else.

But when you are a hundred years, it doesn't make sense to have saved energy for another hundred years, unless you want to give it to your children or something.
There are some simple equations:
Time=energy
Energy=oil
Oil=stored sun energy
Gold was chosen to be a barter good for oil
So you could also say:
Gold=(stored)energy
Gold=(stored)time

But now we have a war which is fought out between gold an bitcoin.
Because Bitcoin is a much better store of value since the supply is limited and not controlled by humans.

I hope you understand.
It's difficult to explain in English. I could go on for hours ;D

Well, anything without time is useless. Without time, you wouldn't even be able to move.

At the moment it is still dollar but like you say, anything is possible. Hopefully when more adoption is in place and volatility has been addressed, we can start to see change. I expect another 10 more years just to be realistic.

With todays transportation and communication, there should be world money. The reason there isn't, is that each government steals from it's people through the money, and partly because of inertia, and partly because of currency controls and artificially erected resistance for money, traders in an area use the local fiat. But that is inherently unstable, and a sort of fiat can evaporate with a big poof. Traders always want the best money, and that can be bitcoin in the future.

When the situation is stabilized with world money, that money type will be the best approximation for value. Still, things can happen that changes the demand and supply for money of all types, hence also the world money type (technology change, natural disaster, population change, savings rate, total investments). Therefore you can not have money with stable value.

At the moment its dollar and it will continue to be due the rigging of the system. If they can rig the system to make it be flat line (or at least perceived flat line by the common folk when they do groceries) they will still be #1.
For Bitcoin to reach that level we need mass adoption + a lot of years into the future when the emission of mined BTC is really slow.

"Time is money": Benjamin Franklin 1748

Time alone is not energy according to physics. Power*time=Energy. 1000*Watt*hours=kwh, that is how you measure your electricity bill. Bitcoins (mining)=wh=power*time. Benjamin Franklin was wrong, money is time multiplied by power=)

The dollar is the best world money now, but traders decide, and that decision can change quickly.

Traders aren't everything. If Mr Rothchild and friends are under severe danger if the dollar collapses, do you think they will let it happen? the super elite is not going to sit down and relax as "traders" decide to collapse dollar and adopt bitcoin or god knows what will happen.

If folks want some type of money, they use it, and the dominators can do nothing.

I agree from an idealistic stand point, but I don't think countries would like to inherit other nation's problems using a global currency.


IMO, this won't happen. I believe the best we can hope for is a globally-backed world reserve currency that allows each nation to exchange its fiat for shares of the world reserve according to set rates.

If it is not bitcoin, I think world money will be suggested, starting while the different fiats bite the dust. I suppose many suggestions will be hopeless commodity backings, may be the most serious suggestion will be a world fiat money administered by the UN (and we will really be in trouble).

Yeah, look into SDRs if you haven't already. They are potential claims on freely usable currencies available to IMF members. Not a currency per say, but an asset reserve. Value is determined by a few of the economic powerhouse currencies of nations with ties to the IMF: US, Japan, Euro, Great Britain.

I have a problem with figuring out exactly what the SDR is. It seems member states have in advance agreed to on request exchange SDR's for a set of fiat currencies, up to a certain amount per country, more for the well standing coundtries. I guess that means it is a form of credit.

But you would need insane amounts of adoption for the so called dominators to give up and join Bitcoin themselves (which would be good because It would only make the price higher).

Right, but bitcoin has some degree of adoption now, and the adoption is rising (that's what I think anyway). Since the usefulness of the system and the money is better with more adoption, bitcoin has to take it all. The dominators will be deprived of oxygen, and have to find something else to do.

SDRs are utilized through the IMF, so only countries who have a relationship with the IMF (very few, but powerful ones) can partake. Post WWII, most foreign currencies are on a floating exchange rate. Countries that have poor exchange rates can "buy" SDRs from other holders or they can get them from IMF designation.

By having a basket of different currencies determining the exchange rate, countries with floating exchange rates that are poor stand a better chance to get better rates for their own currencies against the value of larger nations who's currency is higher value at that time.