Bitcoin Forum

Dear all,

I requested 2 withdrawals with MtGox on 05.07.2012 and 06.07.2012 totalling almost 1500 EUR. MtGox decided to avoid paying me and refuses to give a detailed explanation about what is going on.

“2012/07/05 08:55:21 Withdraw Status: confirmed 1,000.00000 € 452.15020 € Withdraw to account DEUTSCHE POSTBANK AG”

“2012/07/06 09:28:49 Withdraw Status: confirmed 459.58000 € 0.00206 € Withdraw to account DEUTSCHE POSTBANK AG”

(I have also taken a screenshot that documents my withdrawals, which you can find here: http://postimage.org/image/9j2khpkxl/)

According to their website, the whole withdrawal process can take up to 5 working days. I have double checked my bank info and I am 100% sure that incorrect information are not the cause of the delay. I have also verified my account with them, even though I have never been asked to do so. Screenshot: http://postimage.org/image/evbink5tz/

Here is the message history with support. As you can see I am not given any serious reason for the delay, they just keep using their standard-answer which is an unbearable situation for me. Even though the chances of getting my money are very low now, I have still reported them with the Japanese chamber of commerce and their local police for fraud.

If you want to review my whole discussion with their "support" please kindly check these Screenshots:

http://postimage.org/image/4h42p9m49/
http://postimage.org/image/8p977gn6f/

As you see they are not making any serious efforts in helping me. Since almost 3 weeks have passed now, I gave up on getting my money back and try to warn as many people about MtGox as I can.

I strongly believe that MtGox is a highly fraudulent operation.

I would recommend to never put serious amounts of money there, as I did :-((

Is your account verified by them? Uploading your docs doesn't make your account verified automatically unfortunately. You'll have to wait till you receive that confirmation email from them.

5 days for their bank wire? You'll be lucky if you get it from them in 20 days.

No, I only uploaded the documents so far. But I am not required to verify because you only need that when you want to withdraw larger sums. Just look at their answers they simply do not care about the problem at all, they just keep pasting their standard answer.

For all SEPA traffic via Mt Gox you are required to be fully verified (unless things have changed over the last couple of days)  :-\
So once they get your uploaded documents sorted you can probably expect them to start processing but not before then.

However I agree that they could do way better than pasting a standard answer.

First, this is nowhere stated on the MtGox website. Also they have my verification documents for almost 3 weeks now so I hardly believe that this is the true limiting factor here.

I still believe that their website is fraudulent or that they simply do not care much about their customers. Instead of just pasting the standard-answer they could have been way more specific about the true nature of the problem.

In any case this is simply not a place where I would want my money to be.

Have you created a support ticket?

I've withdrawn and deposited from Dwolla a number of times and at least half a dozen times the transfers has gone missing for a number of reasons and it wasn't until after I created a support ticket that the matter was resolved in short order.

Just a though.

Yes please check my first post to see the helpful discussion I had with support.

This has happened to me many times. One time was with a substantial withdrawal. Yes, I was nervous, but they eventually came thru...  so, while its irritating (i know what you are going thru, trust me) just keep on them. It will happen....

AR

I'll add another post which will hopefully convince you to remain calm, be patient and eventually you will get your money.

I was not "verified" about a month ago.  I went to withdraw b/c like you, I did not need to increase my limits, I just wanted a less than $1,000 withdrawal.

After two weeks, I submitted a ticket b/c nothing was moving.

They explained how pretty much everyone needs to be verified.. blah blah blah... whatever, I sent them the documents (after debating whether it was a fraud as well).

A few days later, they said I was 'verified' and they would start working on my withdrawal.  They warned me that it could take 8 business days.  About two weeks later, the money was in my Dwolla account.  And 5 days later, in my bank account at home.

I just checked and it hasn't been clawed back yet, so keep up hope that if you throw enough legal documents at MtGox, then you'll be ok.

However, when you send the police after them, I'm not sure how much that increases the delays...

Good luck!

there are numerous reports about withdrawals taking a long time, of course it's not good, I once had a 1K USD withdrawal which took close to a month. Wasn't too happy about it either.

I think it will go through in the end.

It has been so for a while but in order to reduce the number of fraud attempts which will ultimately create some unbearable tension with our banks you need to be a verified Mt.Gox customer for Deposit and Withdrawals. Also, please remember we do not have yet staff working 24/7 when it comes to verification.

There is in the contrary nothing fraudulent here.

Regards

The account is already verified. On your website it is NOT stated that I would need verification before withdrawal. Also your support keeps sending me standard messages that never answer my questions. Why don't you just tell me straight out what causes the delay? Why do you set the priority of my issue to "high" just after my complaint here? I still did not receive any meaningful answer from you guys so I must simply believe that you are running a fraudulent operation OR do not care about your customers at all.

Both will keep me away from now on! High workload is no excuse for this. You keep sending me this standard bullsh* messages. Why not waste 2 seconds more writing "It will be processed after xyz".

I will warn everybody of depositing high amounts of money on your website!

That's quite retarded, why would you need to get identification for withdrawals that are under the AML limits ?
Incoming wires can come from phished accounts, but outgoing transfers ? How are these vulnerable to fraud ?

Maybe they really like the idea of being The Bitcoin Police.

Most countries have money laundering regulations in place with different requirements. MT Gox only wants to make sure their ass is as covered as possible in case they ever do get into trouble in the future.

I'm talking about fraud, not AML

There are some very good points set forth here by r4in.

Sadly, mtGox, is not the only company acting in this fashion. It seems to be the norm many places that customer support is of low standard. Perhaps the explanation is that the individuals acting as support representatives often have low competence and limited knowledge, and really is not very interested in their job, but just do it to make ends meet. I've been working at the customer department for a big telco as first line support, and although I always tried to do my best to help customers, I saw many just shuffling cases around without an intention of really trying to have the case solved, this only led to frustrations for others wihting the telco, and for the end customers of course.

The quality of customer support is something that can be decided from the management, but still, it's an issue that needs to continually be worked on, and it's important to get the right people for the job. But those people who would probably be the right ones, would probably be better suited for higher paying jobs. Still you can get support personell that does a good job. Individuals who doesn't want to contribute in their job, really has no place in customer support.

For a business like mtGox, handling all money transactions in a timely matter is paramount to their success. One day a company will come by that handles it much better, and then customers will flock over to that company.

I often see lack of communication or proper communication as an issue, not only with mtGox, but with many companies. The customer is not hostile, but when the customer asks questions, he wants answers. Support copypasting standard answers in such cases doesn't cut it at all. Customers shall and will demand better.

It seems that in some cases, the best way of resolve something is like querying Mark on mtGox channel on freenode. He has access to all information, and can usually sort problems out. It should not be that way, but at the moment, that's how it is and that's what we have to deal with.

I agree it's not acceptable how the current situation is, and at least the customer should get an honest up front answer. But as I understand it, in certain cases, it's hard to know what the truth really is, as we've seen mtGox lying or withholding information before, we cannot really be sure what's going on.

If a transfer is delayed for 30 days, the customer should get to know why it is so. Is it mtGox earning interest on the funds, is it mtGox having liquidity issues, or is it a 3rd party looking into the transaction ? If a 3rd party is looking into it, who would it be ? And perhaps in some cases mtGox is barred from relaying information if there's for instance a police investigation.

However what Gox needs to realize is that when a customer hears nothing, he has the right to be angry and impatient. People are usually patient, as long as they receive good answers.

However we must also realize that Gox has a large customer base and has to deal with frauds on a daily basis, and try their best to fight it. Exactly how the situation looks like, they only know themselves.

For various reason, a transaction could be halted if coins are tainted, to my understanding, so if you're really unlucky, you get some coins that are tainted, but this is not something that you're aware of, and then mtGox halts the flow of funds and starts an investigation ?

Anyhow, providing accurate information on their webpage, and informing the customer properly, is important.

For instance, if a withdrawal is in process, it should be possible for the customer to know exactly what is happening with the funds. Has it left mtGox bank account yet? Is it waiting for some 3rd party approval? If the later case, there should be a contact number the customer could call to this 3rd party to have things sorted out, or to aid in the process.

Personally I don't understand how big transfers can be delayed, as these transfers are the core of the business of mtGox, and should had the outmost priority. For instance, when I did a batch of 1K USD withdrawals last year, some of them went through quickly, while one of them I had to wait 3 weeks for. I do not understand why there should be different waiting time, apart from the standard SEPA transaction time.

What causes the delays are a mysterious to me at this time, I think we don't have any hard facts, and the explanations given are vague.. It's interesting that often when hassling mtGox about a certain issue, it's resolved more quickly, so perhaps the delay really is at mtGox's end ?

After all, they probably make interest off the deposits, so delaying payouts may be in their interest in that regards, but this may hurt their business as well, so from a business perspective it doesn't make much sense.

Or perhaps transactions really are lined up in que at a bank or 3rd party agency where they just sit for weeks before somebody clicks 'approve'. Or perhaps delaying larger transactions is a way to deterr money laundering ?

So many unanswered questions.

If all customers put high demands on mtGox, perhaps they would improve. Obviously the current situation is not good for mtGox or bitcoin in general ? There's far too many stories like this!

You have to understand that even if your account is verified, some random verification can take place. This is what the support staff seem to suggest. Now this does not excuse the delay on the SEPA Withdrawal, but this has been already been explained on the forum and apparently the support staff did not give you the correct answer and I am sorry about this.

Deposit and Withdrawal of SEPA was been put on pause for several days in order for us to rebuild the overall Deposit/Withdrawal process. So yep it seems that the message did not go trough everyone at the support team. I will work on this personally for the coming few days to make sure such thing won't happen again.

This could be done for many reasons, and each time such verification is triggered by the Bank who requires it. I cannot go into specifics but we had at several occasions (a very few occasions) Banks that REFUSED to proceed a withdraw even if the client was Verified and was withdrawing the money to his/her account. Each time without a clue on the reasons. Often we handle this internally with the bank and the client suffer from an extended delay.

Now a Bank or Mt.Gox could ask further verifications if you transfer funds to another account than the one you usually use. Same country/City, Same Name but different bank will work just fine, however different country/city or different name and bank may put you at risk.

WOW that was long ;-)

I will not be able to reply to all your questions, but we are fully aware of the challenges we are facing and we are working on improving things, but we are also limited to what humanly we can do. So far our first priority is to fix all these Deposit / Withdrawal delays that many of you had to live with. Once this fully restored (This is now just a question of days/weeks), we will then focus our attention on other matter that are important including support but also offer cheaper Deposit / Withdrawal options as well as more locals ones.

Sue the bank?

It looks like Mt. Gox is responding, but if they learn anything look at all the frustration by customers here trying to get their money.

According to Mt. Gox's website :

Withdrawals typically take 2-5 full business days to reach your bank, provided that you have included all required information such as your full name and address as it appears on your bank statement.

So, I requested a withdrawal on July 17th.    After not hearing anything for a week, despite paying an outrageous $25 dollar wire transfer fee, I submitted a ticket.
To submit the ticket, I have to logon with my account,  and create an another "Support ID".
After creating this account which is linked with my ID and email, I submitted a ticket.

I got a reply that stated

Thank you for contacting us. Before we may action your request we require the following information:

Mt.Gox account number (E.g. MTG#####X):
First/Last Name:
Bank/Institution Name:
Amount/Currency:
Transaction ID:
Date/Time the transfer was made:


So I supplied all that information even though both accounts should be linked and they could look it up.

Finally I submitted the ticket only to be told:

Usually it will take 12 business days for the International wire transfer withdrawal to be processed.

At the very least, it's not consistent.    However, its very frustrating and all you users out there trying to get money from Mt. Gox should be warned that it is not a smooth process.

I still have not received my money.

it could be worse ,Intersango is now Keeping DEPOSITS as well as withdrawls so you cant take money out ,cant get them to credit money to your account they already accepted and cant buy any BTC since they deny recieving money they recieved a week ago and say their account is under investigation (4th or 5th DIFFERNT excuse this week now of why the deposits are not being added to the Intersango acount)

Could be worse is not what I want to hear.   If its not easy to get money in/out, then the run up in price lately is artificially inflated and bound to fall.... hard

I'm sorry to hear your withdraw is delayed and hope you can get your money soon.

On the other hand, is there alternative ways to withdraw money from Gox?

For instance could you generate a redeem code on their website and sell it locally in Germany? Is there a marketplace to trade these codes and is this allowed by their TOS?

Hello,

We are sorry to hear of your frustation.  Due to the volume of international wire withdrawal requests that have increased from the Dwolla delays, international wire withdrawals are taking longer than 2-5 business days to process at the moment.  However, once they are processed, they should be in  your account in 3 business days.  We have updated our Support page to reflect this change.  Should you have any further questions, our support team will be happy to answer them. 

I also find it very troubling. I think their delays explain the persistent 2-4% premium with prices on Mt.Gox, and this gap in turn only encourages more people to deposit coins and attempt to cash out.

I would not be surprised if they are low on liquidity.

This is likely not what you want to hear but the two statements aren't in conflict.  It takes them 12 days to PROCESS your withdraw and then 2-5 business days for the international wire to clear your bank.  4 days is the most common.  So 12 + 4 = 16 days.    You likely will get your money ... in 2 to 3 weeks.  Also yes MtGox prices are consistently 2% to 4% above other exchanges and the illiquidity of outgoing USD is part of the problem.  Lots of buyers and less (relatively speaking) sellers leads to higher prices.

Then again I am a competitor offering same day wire service (yes same day) so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

I admit, I rarely see any good news posted about Gox over the year plus I that have read these forums and traded with BTC. I don't care if they are big, it seems the best way to work with them is work around them.

Business issues are one thing but the lack of good communication up and down the food chain within the company makes me shudder.

I'm just going to keep staying away.

As mentioned in this thread. Trading MtGox redeemable codes are possible.

In the marketplace (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=5.0) forum there are several threads dealing with stuff like this, esp. the Currency exchange subforum. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=53.0)

Edit, I'm not sure if this thread belongs in the 'Scam Accusations' thread. As far as I am concerned, MtGox pays out on all withdrawal requests, but sometimes it seems to take a far too long time, esp. from the customers viewpoint. There are many speculations as to what causes the delays.

- Fractional reserve ?
- Holding client funds to earn interest ?
- Legit investigations by a third party (bank, police, tax authority..) ?

As long as we don't see any stats from MtGox, we don't know if 3% or 15% of Gox's customers are affected by the withdrawal issues.

At this point, the quickest way to convert mtGox USD to money in your bank account seems to be trading the MtGox redeemable codes.

It appears to be close to 100%, no?  Has anyone had a speedy withdrawal from Mt.Gox?

Glad to buy or sell MT GOX USD CODE if anyone would like expedite the transfer.

Dwolla
ING p2p
Western Union p2p
Chase QuickPay
Paypal

Thx.