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Alternate cryptocurrencies => Announcements (Altcoins) => Topic started by: ohad on February 09, 2015, 12:04:32 PM



Title: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 09, 2015, 12:04:32 PM
http://i.imgur.com/aaIdqbv.gif




http://i.imgur.com/fXnFoWc.gif


Main Website: www.idni.org

Quick links: www.tauchain.org




http://i.imgur.com/Uu8vL2u.gif


http://www.idni.org/contact

ohad@idni.org

Telegram: https://telegram.me/joinchat/DM7KGApNHMhsQWhmdcgfng




http://i.imgur.com/b0cbnoT.gif

http://i.imgur.com/9kVOZU5.gif (http://twitter.com/TauChainOrg)         http://i.imgur.com/FcSTq3D.gif (https://www.facebook.com/groups/tauchain)




http://i.imgur.com/obrPIwv.gif



IDNI Agoras (AGRS) are being traded on Bittrex : https://bittrex.com/Market/Index?MarketName=BTC-AGRS


To buy from the foundation please contact us here: http://www.idni.org/contact





Important: Which tokens are valid?


The official tokens are called "IDNI Agoras" (asset id 58) over the OMNI layer. The tokens named merely "Agoras" (asset id 35) are defunct and worth nothing.




http://i.imgur.com/9ooItpM.gif

Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLav2klOnTUlN6UynNT-_8hTs1FtF0fGbl

Let's talk Bitcoin (recommended as first intro for bitcoiners): https://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/lets-talk-bitcoin-261-understanding-tauchains
Project Roadmap (latest update): http://www.idni.org/blog/projectroadmap

This thread is also for Agoras (http://www.idni.org/agoras), the generalization and new technology of Zennet and Bitagoras to be implemented over tau-chain: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.0

Blog Posts:
Notes about Tau and Agoras (http://www.idni.org/blog/post2)
Omni Cooperation (http://www.idni.org/blog/omni)
Agoras, Votes, and JSON (http://www.idni.org/blog/post4)
Updates (http://www.idni.org/blog/post5)
More Updates and Uses (http://www.idni.org/blog/post6)
Tau Primer (http://www.idni.org/blog/tauprimer)
Code and Money: Which Comes First? (http://www.idni.org/blog/code-and-money)
Tau as a Generalized Blockchain (http://www.idni.org/blog/generalized-blockchain)





Official code repository



http://github.com/naturalog/tauchain





http://i.imgur.com/DSa6FOL.gif


We propose taking the language of Ontologies to unify languages of:

* Knowledge
* Rules
* Logic
* Computer Programs
* Network Protocols

Ontologies are expressed in RDF language family (Resource Description Framework), or simply JSON-LD.
We propose a software client that stores an ontology of local rules, and determines its actions using a Reasoner. Reasoners are tools that infer new rules or conclusions given old ones. They do it intelligently - using pure logical reasoning, and they also supply proofs for their results. Tauchain node is therefore an intelligent agent able to communicate with other agents, at the very same language they're written with, which is quite human-readable.

It can communicate with other languages as well, like HTTP, once implemented in RDF.
Arrow of time is brought into the network using the Blockchain algorithm. Items can get into a Merkle tree that will be signed by a miner, roughly speaking. The network will also function an RDF-speaking distributed storage, namely Kademlia DHT, letting hashes of items to be time-stamped in a mechanism which is up to the rules.

The rules of the network are determined by its users. Conversly, many independent universes can be created over tau-chain, that may or may not share tau's timestamping. They can also reference to each other, allowing code-reuse: recall that rules are code, since we have a unified language. Moreover: we give an ability to implement Decidable computer programs with RDF, namely DTLC languages rather Turing Complete ones. The implications of those languages will be described on the paper.

Agoras is basically like tau that has the notions of proofs and communication, but with additional notions of time, ledger, and reward. It is basically implementing a Bitcoin-like thing over tau, but it has far going powers: the ability to prove now get a new meaning.
The strength of Agoras over existing cryptocurrencies is based on the logical properties and strengths of the representations and the network, mainly this logic being decidable, so every truth statement can be proved, yet expressive enough.
On say Bitcoin, you can reward coins to one who provides a cryptographic signature proof. In tau we can express our own rules and demand a proof that the rules have met. You can set a rule that one will get coins if they, for example:

* Write a code that passes a given unit-test.
* Prove a fact or a consequence from wikipedia's data (dbpedia).
* Run some code by supplying an execution proof.
* Meet some custom achievements e.g. financial or educational tests.

You can also create a DAC with your own custom rules and combine methods from different sources (code reuse): like some auctioning or trading or voting or pricing algorithms that were already implemented over tau.

Once everything can be expressed in human comprehensible knowledge and rules, and given a software that is able to figure out by itself from this data what to do, and given this software can communicate with others, electronic markets get a whole new meaning.




http://i.imgur.com/3RekSHB.gif



Please beware of many faked pages that came recently and we have nothing to do with:
fake: http://tauchain.blogspot.co.il
fake: http://taochain.blogspot.co.il
fake: https://www.facebook.com/tauchain
fake: https://twitter.com/tauchain
fake: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=439062 (user tauchain on BTT)
fake: https://github.com/tauchain/tauchain




Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: escalicha on February 09, 2015, 12:05:05 PM
Getting place, looks interesting!


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Shadow_Runner on February 09, 2015, 12:05:10 PM
Another torrent coin?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mladen00 on February 09, 2015, 12:09:40 PM
interesting
Dev, could you please give us more information about TC


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 09, 2015, 02:39:06 PM
Another torrent coin?

No, in fact, not a coin. Though coins can be implemented over it.
Maybe some similarity with torrent, but the better word would be - ontologies.

interesting
Dev, could you please give us more information about TC

I'll be glad for a feedback about unclear points from the paper. Yes, it is hard to explain, and I'm looking for the words to make it clearer. I'll therefore be very thankful for specific questions.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: profitofthegods on February 09, 2015, 11:17:54 PM
So... from what I saw you were telling people in the Zennet thread, there was a decentralized cloud computing project merging with a decentralized local market place app, or something similar.

Then I come here to look at it, open a whitepaper pdf, and it looks suspiciously like you guys are actually building what amounts to a giant artifical intelligence which is going to eat the internet.

https://qkly.s3.amazonaws.com/Content/evil-plotting-raccoon/good.jpg

Evil plotting racoon approves.

Unfortunately I can't really spare $100 - but I wish you luck.



Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: tobeaj2meraa on February 10, 2015, 03:23:01 AM
1. There is a little bit unfair for the previous buyers, they are early buyers and take more risks but now they have to buy this coin at the same price(after calculating the discount), and BTC price keeps going down, in my opinion 50% retroactive discount makes sense, where is the 10% bounty for these early investors? These guys are the earliest and most faithful supporters of this project.

2. What's the difference between Tau-Chain and Zennet? I suppose you will continue decentralized Supercomputer on Tau-Chain but will have more features, correct?

3. If you don't hit the 2M$ goal when pre-sale ends, what will you deal with the left?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: bluemountain on February 10, 2015, 03:32:58 AM
Whitepaper looks very interesting good luck OP!


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: NILIcoin on February 10, 2015, 07:43:34 AM

THIS MESSAGE MAY CHANGE PERIODICALLY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any structure, that of a building or that of a social organisation  was created  or is  running by an engineered program. Engineering being the set of rules applied to matter or living systems is that which is laid beneath anything whatsoever.
When we coin the term engineered we often assume a predetermined design executed  and controlled by the force of the designer engineer.. Engineering  often defined as the application of  knowledge in order to create something. But that definition apply only in the case of an external centralized fixed engineered scheme. The other type,The type that rules in most of nature's behavior and all forms of life is decentralized, and it is rarely  categorized as engineered unless assuming an external force, namely God.  When we come to asses the benefit of a decentralized system we are looking at the operation itself and not at how it was created.  An engineered system can be ruled internally by a small and powerful minority or by a large majority, but only a P2P network can be such that the power to change the design is equally divided between all participant at any given moment,  and the rules of the design can be affected and can evolve as a result of a direct feedback interaction between individuals and their environment Tau- Chain to my understanding is the next step in that direction..not only AI but A-Life, which on its most fundamental level is a decentralized P2P engineered scheme, set to create the most complex network of interaction limited by self destruction and navigated by the forces of both.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: NILIcoin on February 10, 2015, 09:39:43 AM
This comment I dedicate to HunderMinerCrafter and Ohad:

The Blockchain is the first step in engineering a successful working decentralized system. A system that can increase precision as a product of security, based on network of users.

If you think in quantum term or probability terms, precision increased by more instances applied. In accounting, precision applied to security.
A system can be secured by a central force, or by a decentralized force. but a centralized force is very prone to a systematic failure, The kind we experience in the banking system. 
(The things we consider as AI is centralized while the things we try to create as synthetic life are indeed decentralized like our unaware consciousness.)

The one major problem with the blockchain is the 51% attack. A truly decentralized system have to be engineered  to deal with such problem.
Life is such a system.
The Tau-chain try to come closer to it. but I think that it is yet to resolve the one primary mechanism of transforming "TRUE" to "FALSE". and I will give you the Bob and Alice example to clarify my point:

Say that Bob and Alice had two children together and on custodian rights dispute Bob refuse to take a genetic test that aims to prove Alice's claim that the children are not Bob's. Assuming test can not be forced on the claimants, what would be the judge decision?

Now instead of a biased human judge we want an objective engineered system to decide.
Like most of you here, the system will conclude that since Bob don't want to take the test He is not sure that at least one of the children is biologically his. The judge however was not able to draw that conclusion. The judge facing the two in curt realized that Bob is the Mather's Barbara nick name, while Alice is The father's Alexander's nick name.

The point is that a system, any system that is not based on arbitrary axiom like mathematics, is pron to "General Consent".
And the challenge to overcome is finding the mechanism of transforming the binary equivalent of FALSE to the binary equivalent of TRUE. In other words, a system that can change polarization. In nature it is a gradual processes of a network reaching a tipping point.

In accounting it will create the same effect to prevent a 51% attack. But for complex systems aiming at content to be able to do this it have to be engineered in a way that both TRUE and FALSE satisfy some ratio and are interchangeable constantly.

Obviously I have no clue how to code such system since Im not a coder, and I know very little about computers, but in term of content, I can tell that the system have to always assume a number for 'general consent" level while calculating all individual disagreement into the final product. thus enoght single individual can always shift that "general consent" to a new figure.
On the way to achieve that constant "general consent" flexible number, we may need to practice change of polarization at a non adjustable  tipping point, that of 51%.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: gjhiggins on February 10, 2015, 10:25:45 AM
I'll be glad for a feedback about unclear points from the paper. Yes, it is hard to explain, and I'm looking for the words to make it clearer. I'll therefore be very thankful for specific questions.

Well, I get where you're planning to go but i) the rationale is somewhat trivially showy and you seem to have both ii) seriously overestimated the capabilities of the current technology and iii) seriously underestimated the scope and scale of the challenge (to a degree that forces me to question the depth of your understanding of the domain).

i) You need to provide more support for breathtakingly-wide statements such as “This class is isomorphic to the class of intuitionistic proofs.” (Can you prove it?)

ii) Let's take Déductions (http://deductions.sourceforge.net/) as an example, what is actually available is: “... rules in N3 language to generate simple Create-Update applications for Java Swing platform from OWL, RDFS, or UML ...” That's parsecs away from the capability that you're assuming will be available to underpin your modelling.

iii) The complexity of the modelling task militates against anything less powerful than OWL Full and that effectively renders the task impracticable with contemporary reasoners. And - you'll find out for yourself soon enough when you get down the nitty-gritty - all this nonsense about bolting ontologies together is just that.

BTW, you should probably include in the references Jezza Carroll and Chris Bizer's original paper: Modelling Context using Named Graphs (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2004Feb/att-0072/swig-bizer-carroll.pdf). (And you should note that adopting this tactic for modelling context then obliges you to introduce and maintain an explicit temporal representation (of “now”) which is going to pose its own profound problems for the reasoning).

I will say that your approach is at least broadly coherent, as opposed to merely spouting risible gobbledygook like the other altcoins that purport to wave an AI flag.

$2m won't cover it though, $20m just might.

Cheers

Graham



Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: e1ghtSpace on February 10, 2015, 11:28:19 AM
Very nice. Glad I made the front page! :)

edit (20th November 2015):
I was just looking through here wishing I saw this when it was released... Then I saw that I was here right on the front page. Haha


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 10, 2015, 02:15:20 PM
1. There is a little bit unfair for the previous buyers, they are early buyers and take more risks but now they have to buy this coin at the same price(after calculating the discount), and BTC price keeps going down, in my opinion 50% retroactive discount makes sense, where is the 10% bounty for these early investors? These guys are the earliest and most faithful supporters of this project.

Note that I've edited the messege on the prev thread, givin 25% discount for early buyers.
wrt that, can we please copy to here our conversation there, so the transition msg to that thread will stay last?

Quote
2. What's the difference between Tau-Chain and Zennet? I suppose you will continue decentralized Supercomputer on Tau-Chain but will have more features, correct?

tauchain is a platform. Agoras will be a product over it, implementing markets, where zennet market type is only one supported kind there.

Quote
3. If you don't hit the 2M$ goal when pre-sale ends, what will you deal with the left?

haven't decided yet


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 10, 2015, 02:21:33 PM
Dear Graham,

Well, I get where you're planning to go but i) the rationale is somewhat trivially showy and you seem to have both ii) seriously overestimated the capabilities of the current technology and iii) seriously underestimated the scope and scale of the challenge (to a degree that forces me to question the depth of your understanding of the domain).
you didnt give much detail here, but on the rest of your comment, so i can't answer to this part.

Quote
i) You need to provide more support for breathtakingly-wide statements such as “This class is isomorphic to the class of intuitionistic proofs.” (Can you prove it?)

those are well known results. cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuitionistic_type_theory for example

Quote
ii) Let's take Déductions (http://deductions.sourceforge.net/) as an example, what is actually available is: “... rules in N3 language to generate simple Create-Update applications for Java Swing platform from OWL, RDFS, or UML ...” That's parsecs away from the capability that you're assuming will be available to underpin your modelling.

by any means, i cannot see how automatic GUI building is more than a piece of cake. I've done such myself zillion times, for example, i already built automatic GUI with QT for my first sketches of zennet.

Quote
iii) The complexity of the modelling task militates against anything less powerful than OWL Full and that effectively renders the task impracticable with contemporary reasoners. And - you'll find out for yourself soon enough when you get down the nitty-gritty - all this nonsense about bolting ontologies together is just that.

I do take into account that some logic algos here aren't trivial at all. Some will use SMT solvers, some are only human solvable, and some are not solvable or not known to be solvable. Still, many operations like consistency check can be done efficiently.

Quote
BTW, you should probably include in the references Jezza Carroll and Chris Bizer's original paper: Modelling Context using Named Graphs (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2004Feb/att-0072/swig-bizer-carroll.pdf). (And you should note that adopting this tactic for modelling context then obliges you to introduce and maintain an explicit temporal representation (of “now”) which is going to pose its own profound problems for the reasoning).

tx, nice paper, maybe will make a reference. wrt time ordering, ofc Satoshi ideas have to take place.

Quote
I will say that your approach is at least broadly coherent, as opposed to merely spouting risible gobbledygook like the other altcoins that purport to wave an AI flag.

$2m won't cover it though, $20m just might.

Let's keep the discussion going and see where it takes us. I cannot answer such a vague claim, ofc. You sound like you know what you're talking about, and I'm very happy to learn.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: gjhiggins on February 10, 2015, 02:44:51 PM
Quote
i) You need to provide more support for breathtakingly-wide statements such as “This class is isomorphic to the class of intuitionistic proofs.” (Can you prove it?)
those are well known results. cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuitionistic_type_theory for example

A pointer to a wikipedia entry doesn't provide adequate support for your statement. The fact that you think it does means that our discussion is already at cross-purposes.

Throughout the document, you continually refer readers in a vague fashion to intellectually demanding areas of mathematics and logic as though you expect them to be able to work out for themselves the verification of your claims.

It is incumbent on you, the solicitor of investment funding, to provide a comprehensible explanation of how the work in these domains explicitly supports your approach, mere hand-waving references just won't do.

Cheers

Graham


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 10, 2015, 02:47:03 PM
Quote
i) You need to provide more support for breathtakingly-wide statements such as “This class is isomorphic to the class of intuitionistic proofs.” (Can you prove it?)
those are well known results. cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuitionistic_type_theory for example

A pointer to a wikipedia entry doesn't provide adequate support for your statement. The fact that you think it does means that our discussion is already at cross-purposes.

Throughout the document, you continually refer readers in a vague fashion to intellectually demanding areas of mathematics and logic as though you expect them to be able to work out for themselves the verification of your claims.

It is incumbent on you, the solicitor of investment funding, to provide a comprehensible explanation of how the work in these domains explicitly supports your approach, mere hand-waving references just won't do.

Cheers

Graham


I agree that the article should be much more explained. Your points help me to recognize where I need to put more emphasis.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: tobeaj2meraa on February 10, 2015, 03:00:04 PM
1. There is a little bit unfair for the previous buyers, they are early buyers and take more risks but now they have to buy this coin at the same price(after calculating the discount), and BTC price keeps going down, in my opinion 50% retroactive discount makes sense, where is the 10% bounty for these early investors? These guys are the earliest and most faithful supporters of this project.

Note that I've edited the messege on the prev thread, givin 25% discount for early buyers.
wrt that, can we please copy to here our conversation there, so the transition msg to that thread will stay last?


You don't get my point, man,  anyway, this is a fantastic coin, I will support it forever as long as you developer guys don't leave it alone.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: bytemuma on February 10, 2015, 03:07:59 PM
You guys, gonna use some kind of POW to secure the network? Which will be the algo?

Thanks.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 10, 2015, 03:11:42 PM
You guys, gonna use some kind of POW to secure the network? Which will be the algo?

Thanks.

The answer seems affirmative, since we do need timestamping. We still design the fine details


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: bytemuma on February 10, 2015, 03:19:25 PM
You guys, gonna use some kind of POW to secure the network? Which will be the algo?

Thanks.

The answer seems affirmative, since we do need timestamping. We still design the fine details

Did you consider the CryptoNight algo? I think right now is the fairest algo around, it is designed to make CPU and GPU mining roughly equally efficient and restrict ASIC mining.

Thanks.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 10, 2015, 03:29:00 PM
You guys, gonna use some kind of POW to secure the network? Which will be the algo?

Thanks.

The answer seems affirmative, since we do need timestamping. We still design the fine details

Did you consider the CryptoNight algo? I think right now is the fairest algo around, it is designed to make CPU and GPU mining roughly equally efficient and restrict ASIC mining.

Thanks.

Well see on Zennet's thread why ASICs might be good here: we want the computers to do real useful work on such systems.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: gjhiggins on February 10, 2015, 04:11:45 PM
I agree that the article should be much more explained. Your points help me to recognize where I need to put more emphasis.

The mathematico-logical background needs expanding some and needs to be a bit more coherent about the solidity it confers to the principles of what you're aiming to do with rules.

The section on RDF is a bit loose but that may be just a linguistic challenge (you describe the components of a triple/quad as “words”, which they certainly aren't).

As for the various references to ontology/ontologies, I can't help but think we're working to two entirely different definitions because, try as I might, I just can't seem to build an understanding that leads me to the same conclusions as you. I'm tempted wave my hands vigorously and refer you to the extensive body of research into just how mind-numbingly difficult it is to combine or even cross-correlate ontologies but that would be mischievous now that you've accepted my critique :) I'll limit myself to suggesting that you double-check your assumptions about the feasibility of freely combining user-developed ontologies because my understanding is that the field remains very much at the research stage.

I'm passingly familiar with EulerGUI and I'm somewhat surprised at your choice (as opposed to Protege, by contrast). It is (unfortunately) ill-resourced and has fallen behind the curve. I note that they claim to support FuXi, which is going back about five years now.

Chime has no current plan to take Fuxi forward and so it is now sadly confined to either the ‘layercake’ frozen Python 2.6/RDFLib 2.4.1 package (https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!searchin/fuxi-discussion/rdflib$203/fuxi-discussion/6oUiMuxIRZc/JbTgMTdZAsEJ) or my now-obsolete port for use with RDFLib>=3 (https://github.com/RDFLib/FuXi) (pre SPARQL 1.1). FuXi doesn't work with gromgull's SPARQL 1.1 implementation and isn't likely to without a major refactoring that Chime has no intention of doing, aiui. So, for any forward-looking project, FuXI isn't really a viable option.

I won't comment on cwm's functionality. aiui, it remains timbl's personal code sandpit and I'm not even sure it's officially maintained. I believe it's not compatible with Python 3 which is not necessarily a show-stopper in itself but that must blight its candidacy as underpinning reasoning technology for any ambitious new project, just in terms of executing in anything less than a geological timescale.

I severely doubt that everyday users will be comfortable using Attempto --- I'm fairly sure that successful use requires users to undergo a significant amount of training. You're correct in that it's the only game in town but whilst that might be adequate for research purposes, I question whether it's suitable for imminent deployment - if you can't find at least a handful of successful real-world deployments, I suggest your reconsider the whole NL aspects of the tauchain project with an emphasis on checking what's currently actually feasible and not just researchers' fond imaginings.

On the NL side, I did explore Quepy's NL features in relation to a semweb project that I'm currently pursuing. The project's domain of discourse is the re-presentation of transparency information otherwise ineptly published by the UK Parliament (c.f. owl-o-parl.org (https://owl-o-parl.org/)) and the Quepy exploration was oriented thus.

I published a write-up of my Quepy investigation (https://bel-epa.com/posts/taking-quepy-for-a-spin.xml) which I shall hesitantly recommend to other readers of this thread in that they might find it accessible and gain some illumination on RDF, etc.

Cheers

Graham


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Pizpie on February 10, 2015, 04:27:39 PM
Does Satoshi know about this?  :P


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 10, 2015, 05:44:40 PM

I'm very happy to have you here and I'm thankful for the opportunity to learn.

I agree that the article should be much more explained. Your points help me to recognize where I need to put more emphasis.

The mathematico-logical background needs expanding some and needs to be a bit more coherent about the solidity it confers to the principles of what you're aiming to do with rules.

right, nothing is rigorous there, and I may assume a wrong assumption that the expert reader see it all. I think my next answers will shed some light for you:

Quote
The section on RDF is a bit loose but that may be just a linguistic challenge (you describe the components of a triple/quad as “words”, which they certainly aren't).

it's both true in formal language formalism and makes sense to the common reader :)

Quote
I'm passingly familiar with EulerGUI and I'm somewhat surprised at your choice (as opposed to Protege, by contrast). It is (unfortunately) ill-resourced and has fallen behind the curve. I note that they claim to support FuXi, which is going back about five years now.
Chime has no current plan to take Fuxi forward and so it is now sadly confined to either the ‘layercake’ frozen Python 2.6/RDFLib 2.4.1 package (https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!searchin/fuxi-discussion/rdflib$203/fuxi-discussion/6oUiMuxIRZc/JbTgMTdZAsEJ) or my now-obsolete port for use with RDFLib>=3 (https://github.com/RDFLib/FuXi) (pre SPARQL 1.1). FuXi doesn't work with gromgull's SPARQL 1.1 implementation and isn't likely to without a major refactoring that Chime has no intention of doing, aiui. So, for any forward-looking project, FuXI isn't really a viable option.

Existing tools are only for the beginning. I see the next versions to be SMT solvers based and such. BTW,  HunterMinerCrafter and myself (but mainly him) made some advancements on SMT algorithms (If it interests you please join the IRC channel).
I'm very aware of the fact that not everything is efficiently solvable, and the reasoner won't answer all your questions. But, and that's a big but: the network will. How? Either human or machine. Is it a problem to offer Clay prizes over this network, so when the proof is verified, they automatically win the prize?
Some reasoning will be done by the local client, some by other strong computers (""miners""), some by humans, and some will never be solved.

Quote
I won't comment on cwm's functionality. aiui, it remains timbl's personal code sandpit and I'm not even sure it's officially maintained. I believe it's not compatible with Python 3 which is not necessarily a show-stopper in itself but that must blight its candidacy as underpinning reasoning technology for any ambitious new project, just in terms of executing in anything less than a geological timescale.

Even in my worst dreams I don't see a release of mine in python :) it is only for the quick beginning of the formation of the rules. This is where the big questions are!

Quote
I severely doubt that everyday users will be comfortable using Attempto --- I'm fairly sure that successful use requires users to undergo a significant amount of training. You're correct in that it's the only game in town but whilst that might be adequate for research purposes, I question whether it's suitable for imminent deployment - if you can't find at least a handful of successful real-world deployments, I suggest your reconsider the whole NL aspects of the tauchain project with an emphasis on checking what's currently actually feasible and not just researchers' fond imaginings.

I definitely do not expect Attempto to understand Wikipedia. It should be looked like an "easy" programming language.

Quote
On the NL side, I did explore Quepy's NL features in relation to a semweb project that I'm currently pursuing. The project's domain of discourse is the re-presentation of transparency information otherwise ineptly published by the UK Parliament (c.f. owl-o-parl.org (https://owl-o-parl.org/)) and the Quepy exploration was oriented thus.

I published a write-up of my Quepy investigation (https://bel-epa.com/posts/taking-quepy-for-a-spin.xml) which I shall hesitantly recommend to other readers of this thread in that they might find it accessible and gain some illumination on RDF, etc.

Gonna read now!


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 10, 2015, 05:55:45 PM
Quote
Quote
On the NL side, I did explore Quepy's NL features in relation to a semweb project that I'm currently pursuing. The project's domain of discourse is the re-presentation of transparency information otherwise ineptly published by the UK Parliament (c.f. owl-o-parl.org (https://owl-o-parl.org/)) and the Quepy exploration was oriented thus.

I published a write-up of my Quepy investigation (https://bel-epa.com/posts/taking-quepy-for-a-spin.xml) which I shall hesitantly recommend to other readers of this thread in that they might find it accessible and gain some illumination on RDF, etc.

Gonna read now!

BTW the proposed design has nothing to do with NL. Obviously, enhancing it into NL would be awesome, but it can be as another layer, and, we do want a firm basis for the sys dont we.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 10, 2015, 06:18:16 PM
Well, I get where you're planning to go but i) the rationale is somewhat trivially showy and you seem to have both ii) seriously overestimated the capabilities of the current technology and iii) seriously underestimated the scope and scale of the challenge (to a degree that forces me to question the depth of your understanding of the domain).
you didnt give much detail here, but on the rest of your comment, so i can't answer to this part.

Quote
i) You need to provide more support for breathtakingly-wide statements such as “This class is isomorphic to the class of intuitionistic proofs.” (Can you prove it?)

those are well known results. cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuitionistic_type_theory for example


obv calculus of contructions would fit. i'll correct it. again, this doc isn't written for the experts. but i agree it should be accurate anyway.

wrt the temporal representation, we can do blockchain timestamping.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Hueristic on February 10, 2015, 10:24:34 PM
OK, so your in the cash collection phase. And even changed your original plans without refunding the money you already collected. Where is the proof of concept?

I have a hard time believing you can deliver on your promise's, all I've seen so far is hot air.

Thats not to say your not legit, I'm saying I've seen nothing to prove that you are. And the proof is on you, your the one asking for backing.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: bitwhizz on February 11, 2015, 12:37:05 AM
watching .....


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: halorose on February 11, 2015, 05:34:05 AM
is this the new thread of a old project?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Equate on February 11, 2015, 06:25:34 AM
Whitepaper is interesting , let's see how this project takes  shape.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 11, 2015, 06:46:44 AM
OK, so your in the cash collection phase. And even changed your original plans without refunding the money you already collected.

I didn't collect that much so far :)
When I find out a new thing (namely, tauchain) that makes the classic blockchain obsolete, I think the correct thing is to move to the new tech. ofc this was done with a lot of thinking and getting advice.

Quote
Where is the proof of concept?
I have a hard time believing you can deliver on your promise's, all I've seen so far is hot air.

Which promise didn't I keep? Original Zennet's plan is to keep the source closed up to release. Tau code will hopefully be public soon, and ofc the code tau users will put in it.

Quote
Thats not to say your not legit, I'm saying I've seen nothing to prove that you are. And the proof is on you, your the one asking for backing.

There are a lot of proofs to the dev process, just take the docs for example (at zennet case). Joining our IRC will leave you with no doubts, I guess.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 11, 2015, 07:28:27 AM
I'd like to clarify, due to many questions about this, that on Agoras there isn't any ongoing generation of new coins planned, by the same rationale presented here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.msg9430958#msg9430958

All talks about miners can indeed mean POW as in BTC for the sake of timestamping, but still not incentivized by new coins. Conversly, when I mentioned quad-quoted ""miners"", the meaning is some participants with heavy computatational powers doing some work for the sake of the net, but not timestamping, nor coin generation.

So when we speak about %50 of Agoras, it's from everything. And, we will sell beyond the %50 -- similarly to the previously planned Zennet model -- but the price set is for the "first" %50.

Maybe some of you got the impression that we became zillioners while delivering nothing. The very opposite is true. We work very hard to give to the world yet unseen (even unimaginable) abilities, and we didn't bring enough money even to cover our expenses. I'm a sci and tech guy, not a marketing man. I think it can be seen we have never pushed the public to purchase. Yes, we spoke a lot about a public presale, but things change and legal work has to be redone (and we need money for this as well).


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 11, 2015, 08:05:50 AM
OK, so your in the cash collection phase. And even changed your original plans without refunding the money you already collected.

I didn't collect that much so far :)
When I find out a new thing (namely, tauchain) that makes the classic blockchain obsolete, I think the correct thing is to move to the new tech. ofc this was done with a lot of thinking and getting advice.



What's the advantage and disadvantage of Tau-chain comparing with the classic blockchain, what about the blockchain of NXT?

The most truthful and covering answer would be: on tau's chain, rules and behavior can be changed over time by the users.
But this answer is obviously not enough.

Let me state a very particular use case: Over tau one could give a formal specification of a program to be written. Like: a program that only verifies if a given program meets some requirements. Of course, it is inherently much easier to verify a program than to write it. Now, whoever supplies a code that fulfills the requirements, will be able to supply a logical proof for that (it is possible with functional programming languages), and the network will automatically reward them the coins offered for the implementation.
Moreover: next time someone will look for a program (or function) answering those specifications, the answer will already be there, and code will be able to be reused.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: bubblymint38 on February 11, 2015, 01:29:54 PM
you should make some noise about the presale so that more people are aware of it. :)
for example, at least have a cleanly designed website when you decide to "officially go public" about the sale because I feel that the current phase is still more of a "pre-presale" :D
all the best,


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 11, 2015, 01:38:57 PM
you should make some noise about the presale so that more people are aware of it. :)
for example, at least have a cleanly designed website when you decide to "officially go public" about the sale because I feel that the current phase is still more of a "pre-presale" :D
all the best,

agreed, and in progress. the sale has just began and may take months, we will invest resources in PR over time ofc.
btw http://www.idni.org/pre-sale


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 11, 2015, 04:06:47 PM
Just found out about this: https://twitter.com/tauchain
It's a fake.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 12, 2015, 12:07:01 AM
the pdf (http://tauchain.org/tauchain0.2.pdf) was updated with some important clarifications.

Also updated the minimum purchase amount to $25, due to email from an African person asking to consider still weak countries.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr.coinzy on February 12, 2015, 01:21:08 AM
Good call on the minimum purchase price reduction! :)
This project is only getting more and more exciting and the future is gonna be bright!
People will realize soon enough that taking any part in it is a big privilege (as investors or otherwise).


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: dratsab on February 12, 2015, 02:30:28 AM
Good call on the minimum purchase price reduction! :)
This project is only getting more and more exciting and the future is gonna be bright!
People will realize soon enough that taking any part in it is a big privilege (as investors or otherwise).

The price reduction will let more people invest and create a bigger distribution with more people. It will result in a bigger community.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: NILIcoin on February 12, 2015, 05:54:04 AM
Any structure, that of a building or that of a social organisation  was created  or is  running by an engineered program. Engineering being the set of rules applied to matter or living systems is that which is laid beneath anything whatsoever.
When we coin the term engineered we often assume a predetermined design executed  and controlled by the force of the designer engineer.. Engineering  often defined as the application of  knowledge in order to create something. But that definition apply only in the case of an external centralized fixed engineered scheme. The other type,The type that rules in most of nature's behavior and all forms of life is decentralized, and it is rarely  categorized as engineered unless assuming an external force, namely God.  When we come to asses the benefit of a decentralized system we are looking at the operation itself and not at how it was created.  An engineered system can be ruled internally by a small and powerful minority or by a large majority, but only a P2P network can be such that the power to change the design is equally divided between all participant at any given moment,  and the rules of the design can be affected and can evolve as a result of a direct feedback interaction between individuals and their environment Tau- Chain to my understanding is the next step in that direction..not only AI but A-Life, which on its most fundamental level is a decentralized P2P engineered scheme, set to create the most complex network of interaction limited by self destruction and navigated by the forces of both.



Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: -Greed- on February 12, 2015, 11:15:48 AM
The whitepaper is surely pretty impressive but I'm not very confident with the pre-sale. No roadmap on development, no release date, manual tokens selling, and no return policy. If there were a bit more transparency (like running the presale over koinify.com), I wound participate. By the way, will we be able to trade the tokens when the pre-sale ends?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: bytemuma on February 12, 2015, 11:42:50 AM
Minimum purchase amount of $25 give how many coins?

Can i pay with btc?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: *Sakura* on February 12, 2015, 12:52:19 PM
You guys, gonna use some kind of POW to secure the network? Which will be the algo?

Thanks.

The answer seems affirmative, since we do need timestamping. We still design the fine details

Did you consider the CryptoNight algo? I think right now is the fairest algo around, it is designed to make CPU and GPU mining roughly equally efficient and restrict ASIC mining.

Thanks.

Well see on Zennet's thread why ASICs might be good here: we want the computers to do real useful work on such systems.

In my opinion, PoS is a good choice, there is no energy waste, mining will be eliminated sooner or later.


+1. PoS will be nice for the attracting IPO buyers.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lihaidong198871 on February 12, 2015, 01:44:21 PM
what is the pre-sale time?  and where to buy ?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: itsAj on February 12, 2015, 01:52:21 PM
When will this be released?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 12, 2015, 03:33:11 PM
You guys, gonna use some kind of POW to secure the network? Which will be the algo?

Thanks.

The answer seems affirmative, since we do need timestamping. We still design the fine details

Did you consider the CryptoNight algo? I think right now is the fairest algo around, it is designed to make CPU and GPU mining roughly equally efficient and restrict ASIC mining.

Thanks.

Well see on Zennet's thread why ASICs might be good here: we want the computers to do real useful work on such systems.

In my opinion, PoS is a good choice, there is no energy waste, mining will be eliminated sooner or later.


+1. PoS will be nice for the attracting IPO buyers.

Well, attracting buyers is only after fairness and security, and I think POS misses on those aspects.
Note however, that the mentioned POW was with respect to timestamping over tauchain -- and this can never be POS, because there are no stakes. Tau-chain begins with nothing, far to mention a coin, and the users set the rules=programs=p2p networks. Of course, when tau is on air yet empty, all participants including devs are totally equal.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 12, 2015, 06:20:59 PM
The whitepaper is surely pretty impressive but I'm not very confident with the pre-sale. No roadmap on development, no release date, manual tokens selling, and no return policy. If there were a bit more transparency (like running the presale over koinify.com), I wound participate. By the way, will we be able to trade the tokens when the pre-sale ends?


soon an announcement addressing those concerns and more will be published.

Minimum purchase amount of $25 give how many coins?

Can i pay with btc?

yes
the prices appear on https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.msg10403838#msg10403838


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: NILIcoin on February 12, 2015, 06:33:12 PM
OK, so your in the cash collection phase. And even changed your original plans without refunding the money you already collected.

I didn't collect that much so far :)
When I find out a new thing (namely, tauchain) that makes the classic blockchain obsolete, I think the correct thing is to move to the new tech. ofc this was done with a lot of thinking and getting advice.



What's the advantage and disadvantage of Tau-chain comparing with the classic blockchain, what about the blockchain of NXT?

The most truthful and covering answer would be: on tau's chain, rules and behavior can be changed over time by the users.
But this answer is obviously not enough.

Let me state a very particular use case: Over tau one could give a formal specification of a program to be written. Like: a program that only verifies if a given program meets some requirements. Of course, it is inherently much easier to verify a program than to write it. Now, whoever supplies a code that fulfills the requirements, will be able to supply a logical proof for that (it is possible with functional programming languages), and the network will automatically reward them the coins offered for the implementation.
Moreover: next time someone will look for a program (or function) answering those specifications, the answer will already be there, and code will be able to be reused.

It sounds  a little bit like Ethereum.

I just came back from a meeting with Ohad (we happened to live an hour apart and met on Mastercoin hakaton) and got his permission to use this thread freely to demonstrate right on it my take on Tau-chain which will make it easier to understand some of the Tau-chain future use. it will take a bit of time and may be a bit annoying, and may not be all that great, but I think that it will help, so I apologies  ahead of time.  :)


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 12, 2015, 06:39:19 PM
I just came back from a meeting with Ohad (we happened to live an hour apart and met on Mastercoin hakaton) and got his permission to use this thread freely to demonstrate right on it my take on Tau-chain which will make it easier to understand some of the Tau-chain future use. it will take a bit of time and may be a bit annoying, and may not be all that great, but I think that it will help, so I apologies  ahead of time.  :)

The permission is hereby given to literally everyone :)


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: smaragda on February 12, 2015, 07:03:15 PM
The permission is hereby given to literally everyone :)

Gotta love ohad's attitude!   8)


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: profitofthegods on February 12, 2015, 07:22:19 PM
Bounties

Agoras' XCP intermediate tokens at worth of:

1. $1500 will be rewarded to whom giving a winning common-people understandable definition of tauchain. The definition has to be simple, accurate, and give the listener an ability to understand what can be done with the system in strong sense (not only "change blockchain's rules").

I'm not a programmer so I don't really understand a lot of the whitepaper and I'm not sure whether I've got a right understanding from what I read or not, but  $1500 is a good excuse to try and work out wtf you are doing with this thing so here is my attempt:

Tau Chain creates a network of computers which work together as a kind of distributed truth engine.  Any computer within this network can submit a solution to a task which somebody wants completed, whether it is storing files, performing a calculation, or writing a piece of code to perform a specific function. The Tau Chain provides a flexible set of tools for the network to tell whether that computer is telling the truth about performing the task or solving the problem.

Through the inclusion of data about the meaning of words, and their relationships to each other - which has already been highly developed in a machine accessible way by search engine engineers trying to help computers to respond naturally to questions people type into places like Google, the Tau Chain would be able to apply the same logic to verify whether human statements are true or false, and to give people answers to logical questions.

This allows the Tau Chain network to perform a wide range of useful functions in a decentralized way.

In fact, it may well be the case that it is able to do these things in a more decentralized way than other cryptocurrencies such as Bitcoin, because no matter how collaborative an open source project might be, its development must ultimately have a central authority to lead the development. The ability to check whether code performs a required task may mean that Tau Chain users are able to propose and vote on features they want, put them out to tender, and validate any solution which is provided, all through the network itself without the need for a central authority.

Over time the network would build up a big library of pieces of code, each of which would have been proven to perform specific tasks. Eventually, it may even be able to combine these code fragments together itself to provide its own (artificially) intelligently designed computer programs.

In the same way, libraries of statements people have made, and whether they are true or false, might also be built up. This would allow the network to use the collective power of all its participants to answer ever more complex questions, and to embed the facts which it retains in an increasingly broad context, or meaning.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 12, 2015, 07:39:03 PM
Bounties

Agoras' XCP intermediate tokens at worth of:

1. $1500 will be rewarded to whom giving a winning common-people understandable definition of tauchain. The definition has to be simple, accurate, and give the listener an ability to understand what can be done with the system in strong sense (not only "change blockchain's rules").

I'm not a programmer so I don't really understand a lot of the whitepaper and I'm not sure whether I've got a right understanding from what I read or not, but  $1500 is a good excuse to try and work out wtf you are doing with this thing so here is my attempt:

Tau Chain creates a network of computers which work together as a kind of distributed truth engine.  Any computer within this network can submit a solution to a task which somebody wants completed, whether it is storing files, performing a calculation, or writing a piece of code to perform a specific function. The Tau Chain provides a flexible set of tools for the network to tell whether that computer is telling the truth about performing the task or solving the problem.

Through the inclusion of data about the meaning of words, and their relationships to each other - which has already been highly developed in a machine accessible way by search engine engineers trying to help computers to respond naturally to questions people type into places like Google, the Tau Chain would be able to apply the same logic to verify whether human statements are true or false, and to give people answers to logical questions.

This allows the Tau Chain network to perform a wide range of useful functions in a decentralized way.

In fact, it may well be the case that it is able to do these things in a more decentralized way than other cryptocurrencies such as Bitcoin, because no matter how collaborative an open source project might be, its development must ultimately have a central authority to lead the development. The ability to check whether code performs a required task may mean that Tau Chain users are able to propose and vote on features they want, put them out to tender, and validate any solution which is provided, all through the network itself without the need for a central authority.

Over time the network would build up a big library of pieces of code, each of which would have been proven to perform specific tasks. Eventually, it may even be able to combine these code fragments together itself to provide its own (artificially) intelligently designed computer programs.

In the same way, libraries of statements people have made, and whether they are true or false, might also be built up. This would allow the network to use the collective power of all its participants to answer ever more complex questions, and to embed the facts which it retains in an increasingly broad context, or meaning.

Looks good!
It focuses nicely on the code and logic parts, also mentioning the shared knowledge nature.
What about rule-making like democracy, for example? Real one! :)
Another worth mentioning thing is that apps over tauchain may or may not be decentralized. They can be written as literally any program.
Last, it is almost all about what can be done with the system - it is not what the bare system is.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: NILIcoin on February 12, 2015, 07:52:42 PM
The permission is hereby given to literally everyone :)

Gotta love ohad's attitude!   8)

The first move Has just been made, upon my comment Ohad made a new rule, A rule that is not comply with the moderators rules, thus very soon the things that he  may allow to do on his thread are going to be against the rules of the moderators. Now, if anything that we do here is about demonstrating the content and essence of his platform and coin, thus it may be the most important part of  his thread. So we got a big conflict about to strike and since on the bitcoin forum the moderators have the upper hand, they can delete it all.

If this was on the blockchain, all the rules would be preset and my comments will be deleted even if Ohad wanted them to stay. On the blockchain to change a rule, he would have  to launch a 51% attack on the system and would have to have enough power to do so. (The thing we call democracy is in actual a 51% attack on our freedom as individuals) . But if this forum was set on the Tau-Chain a totally different thing would shape up: NO voting required (and most unwanted trolling will vanish). Once I will brake the rule Ohad will be able to accept it. if no one else oppose, it will change the blockchain to allow for comments categorized as "for delete" by the system  to stay on Ohads thread. He will in practice customized his thread. Now if my comment will offend Someone else that person will have the power to try and change it so the comment will be deleted.... but  let me actualy demonstrate a possible conflict here on another comment, since this is where it start to get really interesting and far more complex.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 12, 2015, 08:00:53 PM
The permission is hereby given to literally everyone :)

Gotta love ohad's attitude!   8)

The first move Has just been made, upon my comment Ohad made a new rule, A rule that is not comply with the moderators rules, thus very soon the things that he may allow to do on his thread are going to be against the rules of the moderators. Now, if anything that we do here is about demonstrating the content and essence of his platform and coin, thus it may be the most important part of  his thread. So we got a big conflict about to strike and since on the bitcoin forum the moderators have the upper hand and they can delete it all.

If this was on the blockchain, all the rules would be preset and my comments will be deleted even if Ohad wanted them to stay. On the blockchain he would have  to launch a 51% attack on the system and would have to have enough power to do so. (The thing we call democracy is in actual a 51% attack on our freedom as individuals) . But if this forum was set on the Tau-Chain a totally different thing would shape up: NO voting required (and most unwanted trolling will vanish). Once I will brake the rule Ohad will be able to accept it. if no one else oppose, it will change the blockchain to allow for comments categorized as "for delete" by the system  to stay on Ohads thread. He will in practice customized his thread. Now if my comment will offend Someone else that person will have the power to try and change it so the comment will be deleted.... but  let me actualy demonstrate a possible conflict here on another comment, since this is where it start to get really interesting and far more complex.

nice approach.
i must only mention that no coin here.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: NILIcoin on February 12, 2015, 08:47:33 PM
The permission is hereby given to literally everyone :)

Gotta love ohad's attitude!   8)

The first move Has just been made, upon my comment Ohad made a new rule, A rule that is not comply with the moderators rules, thus very soon the things that he may allow to do on his thread are going to be against the rules of the moderators. Now, if anything that we do here is about demonstrating the content and essence of his platform and coin, thus it may be the most important part of  his thread. So we got a big conflict about to strike and since on the bitcoin forum the moderators have the upper hand and they can delete it all.

If this was on the blockchain, all the rules would be preset and my comments will be deleted even if Ohad wanted them to stay. On the blockchain he would have  to launch a 51% attack on the system and would have to have enough power to do so. (The thing we call democracy is in actual a 51% attack on our freedom as individuals) . But if this forum was set on the Tau-Chain a totally different thing would shape up: NO voting required (and most unwanted trolling will vanish). Once I will brake the rule Ohad will be able to accept it. if no one else oppose, it will change the blockchain to allow for comments categorized as "for delete" by the system  to stay on Ohads thread. He will in practice customized his thread. Now if my comment will offend Someone else that person will have the power to try and change it so the comment will be deleted.... but  let me actualy demonstrate a possible conflict here on another comment, since this is where it start to get really interesting and far more complex.

nice approach.
i must only mention that no coin here.
True, no coins yet, but soon in my plot I will present the point in which coins become very useful for the "game"of making rules to achieve maximum efficiency. And I believe that as you progress with the development of your platform, the perfect use of a coin will emerge. The stick and the carrot almost always work, unless you are a stick laughing at the carrot, but most of us are not HMC :) 


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: NILIcoin on February 12, 2015, 08:57:13 PM
So... from what I saw you were telling people in the Zennet thread, there was a decentralized cloud computing project merging with a decentralized local market place app, or something similar.

Then I come here to look at it, open a whitepaper pdf, and it looks suspiciously like you guys are actually building what amounts to a giant artifical intelligence which is going to eat the internet.

https://qkly.s3.amazonaws.com/Content/evil-plotting-raccoon/good.jpg

Evil plotting racoon approves.

Unfortunately I can't really spare $100 - but I wish you luck.



Any structure, that of a building or that of a social organisation  was created  or is  running by an engineered program. Engineering being the set of rules applied to matter or living systems is that which is laid beneath anything whatsoever.
When we coin the term engineered we often assume a predetermined design executed  and controlled by the force of the designer engineer.. Engineering  often defined as the application of  knowledge in order to create something. But that definition apply only in the case of an external centralized fixed engineered scheme. The other type,The type that rules in most of nature's behavior and all forms of life is decentralized, and it is rarely  categorized as engineered unless assuming an external force, namely God.  When we come to asses the benefit of a decentralized system we are looking at the operation itself and not at how it was created.  An engineered system can be ruled internally by a small and powerful minority or by a large majority, but only a P2P network can be such that the power to change the design is equally divided between all participant at any given moment,  and the rules of the design can be affected and can evolve as a result of a direct feedback interaction between individuals and their environment Tau- Chain to my understanding is the next step in that direction..not only AI but A-Life, which on its most fundamental level is a decentralized P2P engineered scheme, set to create the most complex network of interaction limited by self destruction and navigated by the forces of both.



This is the next set of comments which I will alter in a way that will create a conflict for the forum rules. Im posting it here as a comment so you will have the original one to compare before I will treat it beyond recondition . so this is the record for "before" . (by the way I already changed it once to enter a new comment onto the first page)

and this is how it looks now https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg10412813#msg10412813


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 13, 2015, 12:25:37 AM
Published some notes and clarifications at http://www.idni.org/blog/post2


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 15, 2015, 08:50:48 PM
Yet another summarized definition of tau-chain http://tauchain.org
(Ctrl+F5)


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: -Greed- on February 16, 2015, 11:29:26 AM
Published some notes and clarifications at http://www.idni.org/blog/post2
Some things are still not clear for me:

1) Will we be able to trade the tokens when the pre-sale ends?
2) How about having a bit more tranparency like reporting about sold/remaining coins and current price?
3) Any refund policy (if you don't reach the $2M goal)?

BTW, here are crowdsale best practices: https://github.com/DavidJohnstonCEO/CrowdsaleBestPractices


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 16, 2015, 12:05:36 PM
Published some notes and clarifications at http://www.idni.org/blog/post2
Some things are still not clear for me:

1) Will we be able to trade the tokens when the pre-sale ends?
2) How about having a bit more tranparency like reporting about sold/remaining coins and current price?
3) Any refund policy (if you don't reach the $2M goal)?

BTW, here are crowdsale best practices: https://github.com/DavidJohnstonCEO/CrowdsaleBestPractices

1) These are XCP tokens - you can do with them whatever you like from the very moment you got them. I send them immediately to purchasers.
2) It's all transparent! How much was sold, the BTC address etc. See last post on zennet thread.
3) No refund, but, no escape for me not to dev. I will supply the products with or without successful presale. It'll take more time, less features and quality, and coin holders will hold much bigger stake. But no, no refund and no escape from supplying a network.

As for the best practices, there's much to tell, but I'll only mention that I tend to look from a broad perspective of the whole software world, not only the Bitcoin world. It's also about ethics.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 17, 2015, 01:08:07 AM
"About Tau-Chain" submitted to arXiv http://arxiv.org/abs/1502.04120
And, btw: http://primeurmagazine.com/weekly/AE-PR-03-15-83.html
Follow our new Twitter https://twitter.com/TauChainOrg


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mishax1 on February 17, 2015, 07:57:32 AM
Published some notes and clarifications at http://www.idni.org/blog/post2
Some things are still not clear for me:

1) Will we be able to trade the tokens when the pre-sale ends?
2) How about having a bit more tranparency like reporting about sold/remaining coins and current price?
3) Any refund policy (if you don't reach the $2M goal)?

BTW, here are crowdsale best practices: https://github.com/DavidJohnstonCEO/CrowdsaleBestPractices

1) These are XCP tokens - you can do with them whatever you like from the very moment you got them. I send them immediately to purchasers.
2) It's all transparent! How much was sold, the BTC address etc. See last post on zennet thread.
3) No refund, but, no escape for me not to dev. I will supply the products with or without successful presale. It'll take more time, less features and quality, and coin holders will hold much bigger stake. But no, no refund and no escape from supplying a network.

As for the best practices, there's much to tell, but I'll only mention that I tend to look from a broad perspective of the whole software world, not only the Bitcoin world. It's also about ethics.

Not so transparent when you move the funds around (https://blockchain.info/address/1BzwxgzrdiW5Gdc3kfoUgxeHAhRjnMmrVs), as far as I know these bitcoins can go back to the presale address to get more tokens..


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 17, 2015, 12:06:27 PM
Not so transparent when you move the funds around (https://blockchain.info/address/1BzwxgzrdiW5Gdc3kfoUgxeHAhRjnMmrVs), as far as I know these bitcoins can go back to the presale address to get more tokens..

Funds come there to be used for dev etc., not for savings :)


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mishax1 on February 17, 2015, 12:55:05 PM
Not so transparent when you move the funds around (https://blockchain.info/address/1BzwxgzrdiW5Gdc3kfoUgxeHAhRjnMmrVs), as far as I know these bitcoins can go back to the presale address to get more tokens..

Funds come there to be used for dev etc., not for savings :)

If you think this is an appropriate response you are mistaken.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 17, 2015, 01:50:25 PM
Not so transparent when you move the funds around (https://blockchain.info/address/1BzwxgzrdiW5Gdc3kfoUgxeHAhRjnMmrVs), as far as I know these bitcoins can go back to the presale address to get more tokens..

Funds come there to be used for dev etc., not for savings :)

If you think this is an appropriate response you are mistaken.

so our team and myself will go and take another job until the sale ends?
we need to have minimal expenses for living, administration, marketing - and we do not have this minimum yet.
i'm not surprised that in a world where lies are very common people expect me to be a rich man wanting only more, and expecting me to tell semi-accurate things about the plans and the ongoing.
but, as always, i'm not going to lie even in a small thing. when taking this restriction, things change. and they change to the good.
of course, i'm not calling people to trust me based on my words only. it does not say i'm going to lie.
not using the funds will leave me with a choice to either lie i'm developing, or to take a job and admit i'm not developing. i do not prefer those options.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 17, 2015, 05:48:03 PM
another fakes:
http://tauchain.blogspot.co.il
http://taochain.blogspot.co.il
https://www.facebook.com/tauchain
btw the twitter fake is still there and publishing


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mishax1 on February 17, 2015, 07:36:33 PM
Not so transparent when you move the funds around (https://blockchain.info/address/1BzwxgzrdiW5Gdc3kfoUgxeHAhRjnMmrVs), as far as I know these bitcoins can go back to the presale address to get more tokens..

Funds come there to be used for dev etc., not for savings :)

If you think this is an appropriate response you are mistaken.

so our team and myself will go and take another job until the sale ends?
we need to have minimal expenses for living, administration, marketing - and we do not have this minimum yet.
i'm not surprised that in a world where lies are very common people expect me to be a rich man wanting only more, and expecting me to tell semi-accurate things about the plans and the ongoing.
but, as always, i'm not going to lie even in a small thing. when taking this restriction, things change. and they change to the good.
of course, i'm not calling people to trust me based on my words only. it does not say i'm going to lie.
not using the funds will leave me with a choice to either lie i'm developing, or to take a job and admit i'm not developing. i do not prefer those options.

Don't take this personally, it's just history speaks for itself, and statistically I think there were like 80-90% scam crowdfunds/IPOs.

Asking for decent and transparent crowdfunding is not a crime, it's a must in crypto.

BTW, whats the name of the token on counterparty ?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 17, 2015, 07:39:09 PM
Asking for decent and transparent crowdfunding is not a crime, it's a must in crypto.

as above, i'm considering not only crypto world standards but also the whole software world's standards (and a few standards of my own). and i think this sale is very decent and transparent.

BTW, whats the name of the token on counterparty ?

http://blockscan.com/assetInfo/A8543099127490528000


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mishax1 on February 17, 2015, 08:29:56 PM
Asking for decent and transparent crowdfunding is not a crime, it's a must in crypto.

as above, i'm considering not only crypto world standards but also the whole software world's standards (and a few standards of my own). and i think this sale is very decent and transparent.

BTW, whats the name of the token on counterparty ?

http://blockscan.com/assetInfo/A8543099127490528000

Your words: "100$ = 3,500,000 Agoras.  1 Token = 3,500 Agoras."
So, we have 42m tokens which gives 147b Agoras.

IPO address:  total of $ 6,652.16 received (https://blockchain.info/address/1BzwxgzrdiW5Gdc3kfoUgxeHAhRjnMmrVs) and total amount of 245,936 A8543099127490528000 tokens (http://blockscan.com/address/1LXRVZM2ddLKfcPuy9rHhzUabByMqL1JK6) (out of 42m) sent,

245,936 A8543099127490528000 tokens * 3500 = 860,776,000 Agoras,

860,776,000 Agoras / 3,500,000 * 100$ = $ 24,593.6

received $ 6,652.16 (worth of bitcoins),  sent $ 24,593.6 (worth of tokens).

What am I missing ?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 17, 2015, 09:00:57 PM
What am I missing ?

you're missing all zennet buyers bought privately over the last ~6m, before this Agoras sale began, and i sent many of them coins (some of them preferred to let me keep them in the meanwhile)

now for the math:
; 42000000*3500
        147000000000
which are the 147 billion agoras as announced.
every $1.02 gives 10 tokens, at today's price after 2% up since a week has passed.
what am i missing?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mishax1 on February 17, 2015, 09:16:12 PM

Roger that.

Is there a final date for the sale ?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 17, 2015, 09:32:53 PM

Roger that.

Is there a final date for the sale ?

no. but the amount of coins is bounded, and the price is increasing. obv, the price is so low now, and soon tau will be on air so naturally value and interest will go up, even more than the increase of 2% weekly.
nevertheless I keep the right to inform about the end of the sale one or two weeks before.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: DonShoshan on February 18, 2015, 08:00:52 AM
Ohad,

I am interested to know more about the changes to the Zennet team, now Tau-Chain team. As I understood, most of the original Zennet team has left, including the former manager, Daniel Peled. Who exactly has left to work for the new Tau-Chain project? What happen that the original team has broken up (if it did broken up) and who is the new manager?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 18, 2015, 03:35:46 PM
Ohad,

I am interested to know more about the changes to the Zennet team, now Tau-Chain team. As I understood, most of the original Zennet team has left, including the former manager, Daniel Peled. Who exactly has left to work for the new Tau-Chain project? What happen that the original team has broken up (if it did broken up) and who is the new manager?

That's not true. Most of the team is still with me and with tau, including Daniel Peled. The manager is me.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: DonShoshan on February 18, 2015, 09:31:39 PM
 OK, please introduce your team.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 18, 2015, 10:03:54 PM
This is not what I have heard... OK, please introduce your team.

i don't know what you've heard and what your intentions are.
i'll think more and ask people's permission before i publish their names again.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: DonShoshan on February 18, 2015, 11:26:01 PM
Great, after all no one will give money to ANON devs if it is up to him.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 18, 2015, 11:31:05 PM
Great, after all no one will give money to ANON devs if it is up to him.


I'm taking all responsibility including dev. I'm the first and foremost dev. Complains, to me only.
Anyway, I will publish the team.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: pikuchato on February 19, 2015, 12:11:24 AM
Great, after all no one will give money to ANON devs if it is up to him.


Ohad is well known in the Israeli bitcoin community and never tried to hide his identity, he is defiantly not anon.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr.coinzy on February 19, 2015, 12:14:44 AM
Great, after all no one will give money to ANON devs if it is up to him.



It seems to me like you are trying to troll here (any personal agenda?)
Why don't you speak only for yourself instead of taking privilege which is not yours to take and trying to speak for others?
Ohad is far from being an anon person and that is more than enough compared to many completely anonymous teams out there.
I have full belief in this project and Ohad as it's leader.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: CoinFreedom on February 19, 2015, 01:51:50 AM
There is nothing wrong with asking for information about the development team. In fact, it should be required information before investing in anything. I too look forward to getting this information from Ohad. The project sounds great so far.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: DonShoshan on February 19, 2015, 11:58:05 AM
If there are other team members, from the old dev team of Zennet, please introduce them here.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 20, 2015, 07:10:46 PM
Fakers list going longer :) https://github.com/tauchain/tauchain and interestingly they all contain the text "Following Tauchain a decentralized p2p network that emerged from zennet supercomputer project".
And I must mention, as I mentioned on the pdf, that while Zennet is my personal idea and intellectual property (I'll make it soon GNU GPL'ed formally, besides the pricing model that is open as an academic article to all), tau-chain was taught to me by HMC who also says that it is an idea even older than Bitcoin! Obviously, this is the very 15 years old vision of the Semantic Web, just adding decentralization to it with blockchain timestamping, and even on this setting, this idea is old and known, but never taken too seriously. Taking it seriously partially means implementing it, and, seeing the Curry-Horward correspondence + Nomic in it, together with the implications of them all.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: kjn311 on February 20, 2015, 08:37:45 PM
Fakers list going longer :) https://github.com/tauchain/tauchain and interestingly they all contain the text "Following Tauchain a decentralized p2p network that emerged from zennet supercomputer project".
And I must mention, as I mentioned on the pdf, that while Zennet is my personal idea and intellectual property (I'll make it soon GNU GPL'ed formally, besides the pricing model that is open as an academic article to all), tau-chain was taught to me by HMC who also says that it is an idea even older than Bitcoin! Obviously, this is the very 15 years old vision of the Semantic Web, just adding decentralization to it with blockchain timestamping, and even on this setting, this idea is old and known, but never taken too seriously. Taking it seriously partially means implementing it, and, seeing the Curry-Horward correspondence + Nomic in it, together with the implications of them all.

just hoping you are driven enough to pull this off. I'll be lurking...


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 20, 2015, 08:41:39 PM
Fakers list going longer :) https://github.com/tauchain/tauchain and interestingly they all contain the text "Following Tauchain a decentralized p2p network that emerged from zennet supercomputer project".
And I must mention, as I mentioned on the pdf, that while Zennet is my personal idea and intellectual property (I'll make it soon GNU GPL'ed formally, besides the pricing model that is open as an academic article to all), tau-chain was taught to me by HMC who also says that it is an idea even older than Bitcoin! Obviously, this is the very 15 years old vision of the Semantic Web, just adding decentralization to it with blockchain timestamping, and even on this setting, this idea is old and known, but never taken too seriously. Taking it seriously partially means implementing it, and, seeing the Curry-Horward correspondence + Nomic in it, together with the implications of them all.

just hoping you are driven enough to pull this off. I'll be lurking...

yes this should definitely stop.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: kjn311 on February 20, 2015, 09:15:27 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeUrEh-nqtU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhgUDGtT2EM


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: uki on February 20, 2015, 09:22:00 PM
ok, I will put this project on my radar, although I am still not convinced.
What is deadline for sale and how many coins out of total have been already sold?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: kjn311 on February 20, 2015, 09:42:44 PM
I just have one question...

What you will be building is a browser with web 3.0 capabilities on PURSUIT internet architecture using the blockchain?

http://www.techspot.com/news/54559-internet-might-someday-lose-its-dependency-on-servers-rely-on-p2p-instead.html


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 20, 2015, 09:51:28 PM
I just have one question...

What you will be building is a browser with web 3.0 capabilities on PURSUIT internet architecture using the blockchain?

http://www.techspot.com/news/54559-internet-might-someday-lose-its-dependency-on-servers-rely-on-p2p-instead.html

Very interesting, but no. Tau-chain doesn't care about networking architecture. In fact, it doesn't care about anything! It cares about what users tell it to care. Users define the code of the client, which changes from block to block according to the user's preferences. Surely, one could define a p2p internet overlay over tauchain and do it meaningfully (see tauchain.org), with ability to give a mathematical proof that the algorithm is correct and secure, with ability to perform reasoning over the algorithm, and many more far going implications. This of course has nothing to do with the sale, as explained here http://www.idni.org/blog/post2
Tauchain's purpose is exactly for the people to set their rules=programs=logic=knowledge. It tends to begin as bare as possible, with only a vital set of rules to allow basic communication and timestamping, which of course can be overridden on later blocks. We as devs should have the very least, if not nothing - implications over the system's design.

We begin an intelligent democracy from scratch.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 25, 2015, 01:54:12 AM
PDF updated http://tauchain.org/tauchain.pdf


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mishax1 on February 25, 2015, 07:46:58 AM
If I wish to invest, do I just send any amount of btc to 1BzwxgzrdiW5Gdc3kfoUgxeHAhRjnMmrVs and receive the tokens back to my address ?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 25, 2015, 07:48:33 AM
If I wish to invest, do I just send any amount of btc to 1BzwxgzrdiW5Gdc3kfoUgxeHAhRjnMmrVs and receive the tokens back to my address ?

no, email to ohad@idni.org, get an agreement, and then send the coins and send me txid and XCP address do give you your tokens. state of residency should be specified as well for our tax purposes.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 25, 2015, 06:32:56 PM
Announcement on cooperation with the Omni Foundation
at http://www.idni.org/blog/omni



Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr.coinzy on February 26, 2015, 12:14:57 AM
Announcement on cooperation with the Omni Foundation
at http://www.idni.org/blog/omni




These are great news!
A very welcomed cooperation indeed!!


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: loveyouforever on February 26, 2015, 04:26:36 AM
looks promising, can you share the roadmap of this project?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 26, 2015, 04:50:19 AM
looks promising, can you share the roadmap of this project?

roughly http://www.idni.org/blog/post2


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mishax1 on February 26, 2015, 07:35:33 AM
Announcement on cooperation with the Omni Foundation
at http://www.idni.org/blog/omni



Not bad, as a Mastercoin holder, I like the surprising turn  ;)


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: loveyouforever on February 26, 2015, 11:31:28 AM
It's too abstract to most of guys, if you have a simple demo or some pictures which shows what you want to do over tau-chain, it's more understandable, not every potential investor is very good at English and technology.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 02, 2015, 04:47:30 AM
Agoras, voting, and JSON http://www.idni.org/blog/post4


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: tobeaj2meraa on March 02, 2015, 12:04:38 PM
Agoras, voting, and JSON http://www.idni.org/blog/post4

Looks good, do you know Ethereum, it seems some concept between these two project are the same.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 02, 2015, 12:07:04 PM
Agoras, voting, and JSON http://www.idni.org/blog/post4

Looks good, do you know Ethereum, it seems some concept between these two project are the same.

it is so totally different. indeed many people compare it to Ethereum, and I'll write some about the differences.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lihaidong198871 on March 02, 2015, 12:58:53 PM
HI ,dev what is the end time of ipo ?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 02, 2015, 12:59:58 PM
HI ,dev what is the end time of ipo ?

see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg10494256#msg10494256


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: loveyouforever on March 02, 2015, 01:28:55 PM
I have created a QQ group 429389234, if you are interesting in this coin, please join it.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: yufu571 on March 02, 2015, 04:19:00 PM
HI ,dev what is the end time of ipo ?

see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg10494256#msg10494256

@ohad, you should make the key information of the project(ie, IPO) more notable.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 02, 2015, 04:19:58 PM
HI ,dev what is the end time of ipo ?

see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg10494256#msg10494256

@ohad, you should make the key information of the project(ie, IPO) more notable.

i accept. suggestions are welcome. edited now.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 04, 2015, 12:13:41 PM
Omni tokens sent to everyone.
Let me know about any issue.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 06, 2015, 02:14:01 PM
Nice informative video about JSON-LD language https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vioCbTo3C-4


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2015, 08:02:47 AM
today i ran into the descriptions of zennet when it was even older than tau as it's now:
https://github.com/Xennet/xennetdocs
which all began as https://github.com/naturalog/HadoopCoin

funny to see how things that are now trivial ("supercomputer" and "hardware rental market") need a long way to become trivial :)
yet to come with their generalized ones, namely: tau & agoras.
i'm hard working on both preparing materials and bringing the tau client on air asap.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 08, 2015, 08:58:26 AM
unbelievable. i was following zennet from the first days on and just a few weeks not looking I was missing the first month of ipo...


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2015, 04:48:53 PM
old zennet twitter account was hacked and disguised to tau... weird hacker.. anyway i'm not standing behind anything there for now https://twitter.com/zennet_tau


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2015, 04:53:57 PM
old zennet twitter account was hacked and disguised to tau... weird hacker.. anyway i'm not standing behind anything there for now https://twitter.com/zennet_tau

wow this time twitter handled it really fast!


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: TaunSew on March 08, 2015, 06:04:09 PM
Watching


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 10, 2015, 12:10:26 AM
just thought of another straight forward use-case for tau: smart trading bots (algo-trading).
obv, this will be much more powerful on agoras, but still over tau one could implement practically any robot (and easily make "smart" ones with rules) that'll trade anything with an API.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: zrunfeng on March 11, 2015, 11:47:18 AM
Dev,there are just 22BTC in the new address for presell so far,do you have any idea?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: loveyouforever on March 12, 2015, 10:02:35 AM
Looks promising, I will invest it when client comes out.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: batesresearch on March 15, 2015, 01:00:02 PM
Very interesting project. Whitepaper is a good read and insider Bitcoin video is a good watch.

Good luck and I'll be watching.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 24, 2015, 12:40:05 AM
Nice trick:

1. Go to http://rot8000.com/index
2. Type Tau and hit Cypher
3. Copy the result (联聡聵) into google translate
4. It translates to "Union Satoshi Deaf"  :)


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: -Greed- on March 26, 2015, 02:01:12 AM
The amount of money has been collected so far is a bit disappointing. Maybe some attraction from media will be good for the presale...


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: MorAltsPlease on March 29, 2015, 10:33:05 AM
The stated amount does not represent the entire funds...This project is a descendant of Zennet
Funds were invested there, too, there is no chance that together only 22 bits were collected. for Zennet alone the amount was much higher and the Dev promised all previous investors will be part of the investment in the current project.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 29, 2015, 10:41:13 AM
The stated amount does not represent the entire funds...This project is a descendant of Zennet
Funds were invested there, too, there is no chance that together only 22 bits were collected. for Zennet alone the amount was much higher and the Dev promised all previous investors will be part of the investment in the current project.

true.
this is the address used the prev zennet sale: https://blockchain.info/address/1rWRnZMFrLC36ek9EN2R3FPafpXYdZ8mN
there were also significant buyers using fiat.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 04, 2015, 11:36:01 AM
Official project code repo is https://github.com/naturalog/tauchain
Not to be confused with faked https://github.com/tauchain/tauchain


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 04, 2015, 09:05:41 PM
Official project code repo is https://github.com/naturalog/tauchain
Not to be confused with faked https://github.com/tauchain/tauchain

Good progress, I checked the Github, did you ever work for Maidsafe and Ethereum?

No


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Luckybit on April 11, 2015, 03:21:20 AM
OK, so your in the cash collection phase. And even changed your original plans without refunding the money you already collected.

I didn't collect that much so far :)
When I find out a new thing (namely, tauchain) that makes the classic blockchain obsolete, I think the correct thing is to move to the new tech. ofc this was done with a lot of thinking and getting advice.



What's the advantage and disadvantage of Tau-chain comparing with the classic blockchain, what about the blockchain of NXT?

The most truthful and covering answer would be: on tau's chain, rules and behavior can be changed over time by the users.
But this answer is obviously not enough.

Let me state a very particular use case: Over tau one could give a formal specification of a program to be written. Like: a program that only verifies if a given program meets some requirements. Of course, it is inherently much easier to verify a program than to write it. Now, whoever supplies a code that fulfills the requirements, will be able to supply a logical proof for that (it is possible with functional programming languages), and the network will automatically reward them the coins offered for the implementation.
Moreover: next time someone will look for a program (or function) answering those specifications, the answer will already be there, and code will be able to be reused.

Brilliant. I'm going to be watching this. Theoretically it could work but right now I don't know if you have the ability to build it.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: YNWA2806 on April 12, 2015, 09:09:11 AM
This start to wear me down......so ambitious yet zero progress to be shown for so long.....

Losing my patience...


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: NILIcoin on April 12, 2015, 11:51:48 AM
This start to wear me down......so ambitious yet zero progress to be shown for so long.....

Losing my patience...

find it then!!!!! (your patience) and if you can't, well to bad for you.

Yes it is ambitious but since you are fortunate enough to be a part of it from the beginning, even if as a spectator, you have a unique opportunity here. And if you are smart enough you will be able to make a fortune by be one of the first to understand. So while you wait try to learn something too.  :)


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 28, 2015, 11:50:56 AM
Some updates: http://www.idni.org/blog/post5


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: tobeaj2mer01 on April 28, 2015, 02:20:16 PM
Some updates: http://www.idni.org/blog/post5

So ambitious and promising.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: -Greed- on May 15, 2015, 09:40:45 AM
Some updates: http://www.idni.org/blog/post5
Glad to see some progress here. Keep us up to date.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: tranzactionezlive on July 01, 2015, 04:55:37 PM
Is there any way to invest at the present time ?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on July 01, 2015, 08:17:46 PM
Sure, see http://www.idni.org/pre-sale


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: HeXaN on July 01, 2015, 08:35:48 PM
Sure, see http://www.idni.org/pre-sale
Where can i found "the route" ?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on July 01, 2015, 08:39:03 PM
Sure, see http://www.idni.org/pre-sale
Where can i found "the route" ?

simply email me ohad@idni.org
the process is stating agreement to the terms at http://tauchain.org/TOS.pdf then depositing to 1BzwxgzrdiW5Gdc3kfoUgxeHAhRjnMmrVs and then sending me an Omniwallet address so I send you your tokens.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: HeXaN on July 01, 2015, 08:58:29 PM
Sure, see http://www.idni.org/pre-sale
Where can i found "the route" ?

simply email me ohad@idni.org
the process is stating agreement to the terms at http://tauchain.org/TOS.pdf then depositing to 1BzwxgzrdiW5Gdc3kfoUgxeHAhRjnMmrVs and then sending me an Omniwallet address so I send you your tokens.
Thanks
Im going to read about it,
Thanks!!  ;)


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on July 09, 2015, 05:24:16 PM
Dear all,
A new blogpost: http://www.idni.org/blog/post6


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: smaragda on July 09, 2015, 05:58:37 PM
Dear all,
A new blogpost: http://www.idni.org/blog/post6

Keep them coming!   8)


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on July 17, 2015, 03:23:17 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3di66h/tau_chain_it_is_so_innovative_that_it_takes_time/
Judith keeps spreading the word


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on July 18, 2015, 09:52:56 PM
new doc, please comment and ask
https://docs.google.com/document/d/16239hEjL_IgXYsk2I6RMjMKhmUte30leYI3jJ-Vgp3M/edit#


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on July 22, 2015, 02:20:45 AM
Code and Money: Which Comes First?
http://www.idni.org/blog/code-and-money


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: brianloene on July 23, 2015, 01:58:00 AM
I want in on this.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: loveyouforever on July 23, 2015, 09:44:10 AM
Code and Money: Which Comes First?
http://www.idni.org/blog/code-and-money
You guys are doing a fantastic and promising project, in my opinion it's better than Ethereum,  I am so curious why there is so less activity in this thread.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on July 23, 2015, 02:31:17 PM
I am so curious why there is so less activity in this thread.

tau intimidates a lot of players.
i even remember then ethereum's marketing tried to explain that ethereum is a supercomputer like zennet..


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: loveyouforever on July 24, 2015, 02:53:35 PM
I am so curious why there is so less activity in this thread.

tau intimidates a lot of players.
i even remember then ethereum's marketing tried to explain that ethereum is a supercomputer like zennet..

You guys will succeed sooner or later, it takes time for people to realize the value of this project.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: NoveltyLab on July 26, 2015, 04:42:46 AM
The masses need this. It is unfortunate that the general hype market is in a slump right now :(. Until the next Bitcoin bull run and subsequent spike in new genuinely interested users in the space... the more technology that gets built - the better!


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: wosch76 on July 31, 2015, 03:54:06 PM
is the presale still running?
is/will there be an exchange for agoras?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on July 31, 2015, 07:10:04 PM
is the presale still running?
is/will there be an exchange for agoras?

Yes, presale is still running http://www.idni.org/pre-sale
Exchange will be soon (few days I'd guess)


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: wosch76 on July 31, 2015, 07:56:32 PM
is the presale still running?
is/will there be an exchange for agoras?

Yes, presale is still running http://www.idni.org/pre-sale
Exchange will be soon (few days I'd guess)

presale seems a little cumbersome to me.
on which exchange(s) will it be traded?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on July 31, 2015, 07:58:10 PM
is the presale still running?
is/will there be an exchange for agoras?

Yes, presale is still running http://www.idni.org/pre-sale
Exchange will be soon (few days I'd guess)

presale seems a little cumbersome to me.
on which exchange(s) will it be traded?

I will publish the full details soon


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: smaragda on August 01, 2015, 05:46:58 AM
Yes, presale is still running http://www.idni.org/pre-sale
Exchange will be soon (few days I'd guess)

Do you mean the presale will continue through an exchange or have you decided to burn the unsold presale tokens & open trading?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: CrazyEyes on August 01, 2015, 06:21:03 AM
People want to "get in" without knowing what this really is.

Well the whitepaper.. its a mess really. No way near a scientific report. http://tauchain.org/tauchain.pdf (http://tauchain.org/tauchain.pdf)

I mean, its a paper consisting of acronyms and confusing logic without any references. However, that might fool the bitcointalk community. People invest in things they dont understand all the time. Funding... well they want 2 million dollars. Someone wrote that this "intimidates a lot of players". With that whitepaper i guess you do, for the worse.

EDIT: I see that the quality of the whitepaper already have been discussed earlier in this thread.



Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 01, 2015, 07:33:57 AM
Yes, presale is still running http://www.idni.org/pre-sale
Exchange will be soon (few days I'd guess)

Do you mean the presale will continue through an exchange or have you decided to burn the unsold presale tokens & open trading?

We will continue to sell coins also in the exchange,
until the real Agoras coins will go out, in which case, we destroy all unsold coins.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 01, 2015, 07:37:57 AM
People want to "get in" without knowing what this really is.

Well the whitepaper.. its a mess really. No way near a scientific report. http://tauchain.org/tauchain.pdf (http://tauchain.org/tauchain.pdf)

I mean, its a paper consisting of acronyms and confusing logic without any references. However, that might fool the bitcointalk community. People invest in things they dont understand all the time. Funding... well they want 2 million dollars. Someone wrote that this "intimidates a lot of players". With that whitepaper i guess you do, for the worse.

EDIT: I see that the quality of the whitepaper already have been discussed earlier in this thread.



That's right, the paper was written quickly and is not of high quality. It is not aiming to be scientifically rigorous.
But it doesn't change the fact we know what we're doing as can be even seen from that not-well-written paper, or other of many things I wrote about tauchain (www.idni.org/blog), or the working automated theorem prover I already wrote (github.com/naturalog/tauchain).
So if you'll get deeper into the materials you'll see that it's a very serious project, and we definitely know what we're talking about and do fulfill our promises. If you still have doubts or something more solid to tell, please ask.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: gjhiggins on August 01, 2015, 09:12:39 AM
That's right, the paper was written quickly and is not of high quality. It is not aiming to be scientifically rigorous.
So rewrite it to the appropriate quality. I think by now you might be in a position to acknowledge that stance is doing the project more harm than good.

Quote
But it doesn't change the fact we know what we're doing as can be even seen from that not-well-written paper, or other of many things I wrote about tauchain (www.idni.org/blog), or the working automated theorem prover I already wrote (github.com/naturalog/tauchain).
So if you'll get deeper into the materials you'll see that it's a very serious project, and we definitely know what we're talking about and do fulfill our promises. If you still have doubts or something more solid to tell, please ask.

You're inviting us to adopt the position that the relatively low quality of the white paper stands as testament to the fact that the team members know what they are doing? tl;dr it's just that you're misunderstood. Yeah, right.

There are some unforced errors in your writing which suggest that this degree of confidence might be misplaced, e.g. “RDF family which are extremely human readable”. There are lots of qualities openly credited to RDF but “extremely human readable” isn't one of them. You might well hold a personal opinion in RDF's favour but that doesn't provide any evidential support for the claim. And if you're careless enough to allow that through, then who knows what other misconceptions are perhaps running rife through the unclearly-written text.

“So if you'll get deeper into the materials” <- replay that back at leisure, see if it'd work for you. It's a very familiar (and woefully misconceived) tactic to shift responsibility to the reader.

It's the team's responsibility to articulate the project, leaving it as an exercise for the reader will not suffice. My father taught me: “If a man doesn't understand, it’s because he hasn’t been told properly”. I've found it a solid principle to observe if you're trying to work with people to get things done.

Serious is as serious does. Making overweening claims for the tech should be avoided for two reasons: i) they're unnecessary and ii) they undermine the effort.


Cheers

Graham


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: tyz on August 01, 2015, 09:27:05 AM
finally, a real promising coin without any ico and simple algo. i like the idea behind the coin. will definetely watch it. good luck!


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 01, 2015, 09:39:57 AM
That's right, the paper was written quickly and is not of high quality. It is not aiming to be scientifically rigorous.
So rewrite it to the appropriate quality. I think by now you might be in a position to acknowledge that stance is doing the project more harm than good.

Quote
But it doesn't change the fact we know what we're doing as can be even seen from that not-well-written paper, or other of many things I wrote about tauchain (www.idni.org/blog), or the working automated theorem prover I already wrote (github.com/naturalog/tauchain).
So if you'll get deeper into the materials you'll see that it's a very serious project, and we definitely know what we're talking about and do fulfill our promises. If you still have doubts or something more solid to tell, please ask.

You're inviting us to adopt the position that the relatively low quality of the white paper stands as testament to the fact that the team members know what they are doing? tl;dr it's just that you're misunderstood. Yeah, right.

Is that what I said?
I invite asking all hard questions, and definitely do not expect anyone to just believe me.
There are many materials and there is also a lot of code, and I'm basically doing it all by myself, so one cannot expect I'll be able to have perfect materials at any point of time (add to that we're not well-funded).
Nevertheless, the idea for itself is completely rigorous (far to mention - honest), and I'll be very glad with people trying to tackle it.

There are some unforced errors in your writing which suggest that this degree of confidence might be misplaced, e.g. “RDF family which are extremely human readable”. There are lots of qualities openly credited to RDF but “extremely human readable” isn't one of them. You might well hold a personal opinion in RDF's favour but that doesn't provide any evidential support for the claim. And if you're careless enough to allow that through, then who knows what other misconceptions are perhaps running rife through the unclearly-written text.

Well.. XML-RDF, OIL/DAML etc. are not human readable. But Notation3? NQuads? The whole SPO notation? Sorry but I really have to disagree with you on this point. I don't think that other existing language competes with the human readability and simplicity of the subject-predicate-object structure. And if there is, tell me, and we'll try to add dependent type semantics of it, and it might be another frontend to tau.

“So if you'll get deeper into the materials” <- replay that back at leisure, see if it'd work for you. It's a very familiar (and woefully misconceived) tactic to shift responsibility to the reader.

Please tell me another "tactic" other than referring to existing materials and answering questions.
So you claim I should put less time in dev and more on docs? For how long? The next month?
Did you read the new docs btw? At http://www.idni.org/blog or linked in my comments here.

It's the team's responsibility to articulate the project, leaving it as an exercise for the reader will not suffice. My father taught me: “If a man doesn't understand, it’s because he hasn’t been told properly”. I've found it a solid principle to observe if you're trying to work with people to get things done.

I don't blame anyone for not understanding, it is indeed a concept which is very hard to understand, and it took me a lot of time (I'm not the inventor of the idea, to remind). But soon tau client will be ready and people could touch and feel. Professionally related people like you can join the IRC channel and get instructions how to run themselves the prover I wrote. I'm sure such will give you much appreciation to what we have to far.
This of course has nothing to do with the Agoras project and the presale. Tau is totally free and equal, and doesn't even have a coin. Agoras will be developed over tau. So the hard part - tau - people will get to work with soon and see what it's all about.

Serious is as serious does. Making overweening claims for the tech should be avoided for two reasons: i) they're unnecessary and ii) they undermine the effort.

Please show me *one* overwhelming and not serious claim I claimed.



Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: gjhiggins on August 01, 2015, 09:58:01 AM
Is that what I said?

Effectively, yes.

Quote
Well.. XML-RDF, OIL/DAML etc. are not human readable.

Ah, you are working to an idiosyncratic definition of of the term “human readable” that I don't share.

nm.

Cheers

Graham


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 01, 2015, 09:59:48 AM
Is that what I said?

Effectively, yes.

Quote
Well.. XML-RDF, OIL/DAML etc. are not human readable.

Ah, you are working to an idiosyncratic definition of of the term “human readable” that I don't share.

nm.

Cheers

Graham


Sorry, I can't understand your logic, and it doesn't seem you're willing to make me understand. Which is fine.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: tobeaj2mer01 on August 02, 2015, 04:10:37 AM
Is that what I said?

Effectively, yes.

Quote
Well.. XML-RDF, OIL/DAML etc. are not human readable.

Ah, you are working to an idiosyncratic definition of of the term “human readable” that I don't share.

nm.

Cheers

Graham


I keep an eye on this project from the very beginning(it's Zennet->Xennet->Tau-Chain), this is a serious team with professional tech guys, but I think maybe they lack of a little bit of marketing activity, that's very this very promising project is so low-key not like Ethereum. But if you invest in this project, you can get more profit than Ethereum.
BTW, I am not a team-member of this project just an professional investor.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: NILIcoin on August 03, 2015, 11:47:45 AM

 ...My father taught me: “If a man doesn't understand, it’s because he hasn’t been told properly”. I've found it a solid principle to observe if you're trying to work with people to get things done.


Both you and your father should have asked a women....

The things Ohad and the team are doing are indeed  in the framework that require deep conceptual understanding. In the process of creating the "tools" to built a building one can not comprehend, it is very hard to describe the tool itself and how it will work.
One need some imagination and the desire to understand and learn while trusting some intuition.
    


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 12, 2015, 03:46:41 PM
Dear Friends,

I'd like to announce that from this moment, Agoras intermediate tokens are being traded in https://masterxchange.com/market.php?currency=msctau

Please note that there are many unsold coins (+90%) and we keep selling through the exchange, so expect a high supply of coins for now. Before the final Agoras coins will go out, we will destroy all unsold coins (as promised long ago), and the trade will "get to normal" without massive amount of coins being sold by us.

Recall that there are 42M intermediate tokens, representing 100% of all future Agoras coins. Agoras won't have creation of new coins, but all of its coins will be generated upon genesis and delivered to their owners, either right away or in a slow release in order not to flood the market. If we pick the slow release method, everyone with no exceptions will be subject to that constraint.

At this opportunity I'll mention that HolyTransactions.com, an online wallet service, began to support our tokens.
Sales term and conditions appear at http://www.idni.org


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jasemoney on August 13, 2015, 05:13:14 PM
Jumping in randomly, I used to watch in #zennet and still follow Tau lightly. Very interesting evolution from Decentralized Supercomputing idea to Decentralized Apps.

First, Nice interview here: http://cointelegraph.com/news/115118/tau-chain-a-decentralized-app-store-with-greater-flexibility-than-ethereum (http://cointelegraph.com/news/115118/tau-chain-a-decentralized-app-store-with-greater-flexibility-than-ethereum)

2nd, Are you moving all your coins for sale to masterxchange.com (http://masterxchange.com) or still doing some of the presale at http://www.idni.org/pre-sale

3rd, are our options for securing purchased pre-sale coins just to leave them on masterxchange.com (http://masterxchange.com) or move them to HolyTransactions.com (http://HolyTransactions.com)?

4th, If you were to sell for example only half (21M) intermediate tokens rather than the full 42M, would holders end up with 2x Agoras coins, or would the Agoras total coin count be reduced.

5th, Has the price been a static .0006 since you began presale?

Thanks in advance,
-Jase


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: johny08 on August 13, 2015, 05:44:36 PM
the next ethereum to ipo.

i invested one btc in eth and think to make here the same :)

this project seems not to be supported so much by talented people as eth and is repeating what already there but little demand at all, so good bless you with success. you will need it.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 13, 2015, 05:48:22 PM
Hi Jase!

2nd, Are you moving all your coins for sale to masterxchange.com (http://masterxchange.com) or still doing some of the presale at http://www.idni.org/pre-sale

Not all coins are there, and it is still possible to purchase the old way by emailing me or leaving a message on idni.org.

3rd, are our options for securing purchased pre-sale coins just to leave them on masterxchange.com (http://masterxchange.com) or move them to HolyTransactions.com (http://HolyTransactions.com)?

There are more omnicoin (formerly mastercoin) wallets, an online one is omniwallet.org. Furthermore, the address is nothing but a bitcoin address, so its private key can be kept in any bitcoin-compatible way.

4th, If you were to sell for example only half (21M) intermediate tokens rather than the full 42M, would holders end up with 2x Agoras coins, or would the Agoras total coin count be reduced.

All unsold coins will be destroyed upon the real coins' genesis. Therefore, if say half is destroyed, whoever bought before that will get twice in percents of total coins as if all coins were sold.


5th, Has the price been a static .0006 since you began presale?

The price is still calculated according to https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.msg10403838#msg10403838



Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: johny08 on August 13, 2015, 05:49:03 PM
Dear Friends,


Please note that there are many unsold coins (+90%) and we keep selling through the exchange, so expect a high supply of coins for now. Before the final Agoras coins will go out, we will destroy all unsold coins (as promised long ago), and the trade will "get to normal" without massive amount of coins being sold by us.


game theory saying buying the coins before they are sold out or short before the final Agoras coins will go out.

when is this time frame, so we can make a fair game


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jasemoney on August 13, 2015, 07:26:33 PM
Thanks for the replies Ohad.
you started in FEB, so price would be just under 60% higher by adding 2% on the initial cost weekly. Higher still if you added 2% to the weekly cost each week. since only 10% sold I'd imagine now is still a great time to get in, will post again when I do :)


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: rockyleal on August 14, 2015, 06:13:21 AM
Hi, I just found about this project today. This is definitively very interesting and as I am considering throwing a couple of btc into it, I am wondering if there is somewhere where I can monitor the current state of the presale, in real time or close to it? Specifically I'd like to be able see exactly how many coins are already sold at any given point in time.

Thanks


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 14, 2015, 08:45:57 AM
Hi, I just found about this project today. This is definitively very interesting and as I am considering throwing a couple of btc into it, I am wondering if there is somewhere where I can monitor the current state of the presale, in real time or close to it? Specifically I'd like to be able see exactly how many coins are already sold at any given point in time.

Thanks

you can view the asset distribution with any omni explorer


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: rockyleal on August 14, 2015, 09:25:38 AM
Sorry for the probably stupid question, but I don't know what an omni explorer is. Can someone explain how to do this? At least provide a link please?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 14, 2015, 09:32:38 AM
Sorry for the probably stupid question, but I don't know what an omni explorer is. Can someone explain how to do this? At least provide a link please?

http://omnichest.info/lookupsp.aspx?sp=35


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Djinou94 on August 14, 2015, 10:21:32 AM
60k per coin? Why is so expensive?
How many have been sold now?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: John_Paul on August 14, 2015, 02:03:11 PM
Sorry for the probably stupid question, but I don't know what an omni explorer is. Can someone explain how to do this? At least provide a link please?
http://omnichest.info/lookupsp.aspx?sp=35

Is the 0.0006btc/msctau the official sales price?

What is SPT in the Omnichest? You token is called msctau in Masterxchagne? Is SPT same as masctau?

Do I need to buy maidsafecoins to use and make transactions in Masterxchange?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 14, 2015, 02:15:43 PM
Is the 0.0006btc/msctau the official sales price?

Yes, as published here in February, see a few comments above for a link.

What is SPT in the Omnichest? You token is called msctau in Masterxchagne? Is SPT same as masctau?

SPT means Smart Property Token afaik. Indeed I notice that MasterXchange doesn't show information linking what's called there msctau to mastercoin smart property #35 (the unique id over omni identifies our coin), unless you go under Balances and see a link to our website.
Still, of course, there is only one coin, though some disambiguity in naming between sites.

Do I need to buy maidsafecoins to use and make transactions in Masterxchange?

Not at all. Bitcoins are fine too.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: John_Paul on August 14, 2015, 03:16:15 PM
All unsold coins will be destroyed upon the real coins' genesis. Therefore, if say half is destroyed, whoever bought before that will get twice in percents of total coins as if all coins were sold.

Is there an ETA for the launch of the real genesis?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 14, 2015, 03:19:00 PM
All unsold coins will be destroyed upon the real coins' genesis. Therefore, if say half is destroyed, whoever bought before that will get twice in percents of total coins as if all coins were sold.

Is there an ETA for the launch of the real genesis?

I'd say several months (not a few months)


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: John_Paul on August 14, 2015, 03:32:17 PM
I'd say several months (not a few months)

Thanks! Do you have some information about the developers?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 14, 2015, 03:35:18 PM
I'd say several months (not a few months)

Thanks! Do you have some information about the developers?

You can check out my LinkedIn profile https://www.linkedin.com/in/ohadasor
I'm the only main dev but there are a few more who contribute side features and prefer keeping it anonymous for now, still, everything is under my sole respoisibility.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: kjn311 on August 14, 2015, 03:45:09 PM
I bought Agoras coin using the other method through counterwallet. My coins still good?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 14, 2015, 03:50:10 PM
I bought Agoras coin using the other method through counterwallet. My coins still good?

No, please contact me ohad@idni.org and I'll send you the omni coins.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jibble on August 14, 2015, 08:19:09 PM
The price is very off putting, you are trying to raise 2 million dollars on an idea that isn't actually made yet?

you have majorly over valued your business especially since it looks like the only way to complete this project will be getting enough funding, so you are totally relying on investors to fund to project while giving them a fixed price determined completely by yourself.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 14, 2015, 08:43:53 PM
The price is very off putting, you are trying to raise 2 million dollars on an idea that isn't actually made yet?
There's a lot that has already been made.
you have majorly over valued your business especially since it looks like the only way to complete this project will be getting enough funding, so you are totally relying on investors to fund to project while giving them a fixed price determined completely by yourself.

I announced quite the contrary: the obligation to supply the products is independent at the number of coins sold. Moreover, unsold coins will be destroyed before the actual coins go live, so buyers will get a bigger share on that case.
Obviously, more funding will positively affect the timeline and richness of the products.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jibble on August 14, 2015, 08:56:10 PM
The price is very off putting, you are trying to raise 2 million dollars on an idea that isn't actually made yet?
There's a lot that has already been made.
you have majorly over valued your business especially since it looks like the only way to complete this project will be getting enough funding, so you are totally relying on investors to fund to project while giving them a fixed price determined completely by yourself.

I announced quite the contrary: the obligation to supply the products is independent at the number of coins sold. Moreover, unsold coins will be destroyed before the actual coins go live, so buyers will get a bigger share on that case.
Obviously, more funding will positively affect the timeline and richness of the products.


More funding would be achieved if investors determined a free market valuation of what is on offer, not a pre determined price by the creator who has very subjectively valued their own idea which 95% of the time is massively over valued from the real term value, which will be destroyed when any free market economics are introduced .

Good to know the whole project isn't dependent on funding but if more would help, massively over valuing the currency will actually hugely reduce the earning potential of such an idea.

Investors will be investing in the coin at the present time they invest , so the reduction or destruction of coins doesn't really benefit them , they are not coins that are already created really, they are just coins that "might be" created .

If i invested now, it wouldn't change much if all the coins were not sold. If 100,000 is invested by investors the value is that price, if only 50k is invested Then the value of the currency is 50k , destroying coins doesn't benefit them, only leaving the coins there would be at a huge disadvantage to the previous investors. destroying them is a pretty neutral act really to those already invested


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: smaragda on August 14, 2015, 09:00:55 PM
If i invested now, it wouldn't change much if all the coins were not sold. If 100,000 is invested by investors the value is that price, if only 50k is invested Then the value of the currency is 50k , destroying coins doesn't benefit them, only leaving the coins there would be at a huge disadvantage to the previous investors. destroying them is a pretty neutral act really to those already invested

Right when you thought you've heard it all...   ::)


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jibble on August 14, 2015, 09:31:16 PM
If i invested now, it wouldn't change much if all the coins were not sold. If 100,000 is invested by investors the value is that price, if only 50k is invested Then the value of the currency is 50k , destroying coins doesn't benefit them, only leaving the coins there would be at a huge disadvantage to the previous investors. destroying them is a pretty neutral act really to those already invested

Right when you thought you've heard it all...   ::)

If someone values their own idea/ company at 100,000 dollars , that isn't the actual value it's the value they have placed on it.

If they host an IPO to sell coins or tokens and they have a total of 100,000 dollars/coins to sell.

only 50,000 coins/dollars worth are sold. they destroy the other 50,000 coins

whats the value of the company? it's the 50,000 dollars been invested because the 100k is a purely subjective valuation, destroying those coins did jack shit, each coin is still worth exactly the same, if and when the price rises it changes the mechanics . and you own a higher percentage of the coin, but as the IPO has shown the valuation was wrong anyways , so more of a company because it was worth less than the valuation.


The point being a huge over valuation of a company during the IPO can harm the coin. it has happened for the last 3 years + in the crypto space, over valued ideas getting dumped into the ground


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 15, 2015, 06:20:17 AM
If i invested now, it wouldn't change much if all the coins were not sold. If 100,000 is invested by investors the value is that price, if only 50k is invested Then the value of the currency is 50k , destroying coins doesn't benefit them, only leaving the coins there would be at a huge disadvantage to the previous investors. destroying them is a pretty neutral act really to those already invested

Right when you thought you've heard it all...   ::)

If someone values their own idea/ company at 100,000 dollars , that isn't the actual value it's the value they have placed on it.

If they host an IPO to sell coins or tokens and they have a total of 100,000 dollars/coins to sell.

only 50,000 coins/dollars worth are sold. they destroy the other 50,000 coins

whats the value of the company? it's the 50,000 dollars been invested because the 100k is a purely subjective valuation, destroying those coins did jack shit, each coin is still worth exactly the same, if and when the price rises it changes the mechanics . and you own a higher percentage of the coin, but as the IPO has shown the valuation was wrong anyways , so more of a company because it was worth less than the valuation.


The point being a huge over valuation of a company during the IPO can harm the coin. it has happened for the last 3 years + in the crypto space, over valued ideas getting dumped into the ground

Besides the above explanation that even if it's overvalued, the whole deal is still fair,
I have no idea why you think it's overvalued. I think it's undervalued. Please reconsider the value of what we're talking about here (Agoras).


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jibble on August 15, 2015, 06:42:34 AM


Besides the above explanation that even if it's overvalued, the whole deal is still fair,
I have no idea why you think it's overvalued. I think it's undervalued. Please reconsider the value of what we're talking about here (Agoras).

I have not dismissed it yet and agree that it is potential undervalued in its completed form in the future. i haven't finished reading everything but have been reading more and more throughout the day .

Just the things i have wittnessed time and time again in the crypto scene regarding ipo coins is , large target funding goal requests during an IPO, leading to less interest and thus less investment in the initial funding stages, leading to a slower development/implementation of the idea. 

is it possible to get a rough idea of how many coins have been sold up until now or is that private info for the time being?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 15, 2015, 06:44:27 AM


Besides the above explanation that even if it's overvalued, the whole deal is still fair,
I have no idea why you think it's overvalued. I think it's undervalued. Please reconsider the value of what we're talking about here (Agoras).

I have not dismissed it yet and agree that it is potential undervalued in its completed form in the future. i haven't finished reading everything but have been reading more and more throughout the day .

Just the things i have wittnessed time and time again in the crypto scene regarding ipo coins is , large target funding goal requests during an IPO, leading to less interest and thus less investment in the initial funding stages, leading to a slower development/implementation of the idea. 

is it possible to get a rough idea of how many coins have been sold up until now or is that private info for the time being?

The info is all out there publicly. Less than 10% of coins were sold (much less).


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: johny08 on August 15, 2015, 05:02:19 PM


Besides the above explanation that even if it's overvalued, the whole deal is still fair,
I have no idea why you think it's overvalued. I think it's undervalued. Please reconsider the value of what we're talking about here (Agoras).

I have not dismissed it yet and agree that it is potential undervalued in its completed form in the future. i haven't finished reading everything but have been reading more and more throughout the day .

Just the things i have wittnessed time and time again in the crypto scene regarding ipo coins is , large target funding goal requests during an IPO, leading to less interest and thus less investment in the initial funding stages, leading to a slower development/implementation of the idea. 

is it possible to get a rough idea of how many coins have been sold up until now or is that private info for the time being?

The info is all out there publicly. Less than 10% of coins were sold (much less).

and when is the selling of the coins over?

We have to know that, as someone wants to buy, when the project seems to be successfull already.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 15, 2015, 05:47:57 PM
and when is the selling of the coins over?

We have to know that, as someone wants to buy, when the project seems to be successfull already.

Please see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg12140182#msg12140182


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: SmokingSkull on August 16, 2015, 01:30:57 PM
Hm, came here due to the Ethereum - Tau Article on The Cointelegraph.

I read the article but I don't see an advantage on the userside compared to any smart contract form, Ether or the proposed BTC smart conracts.

I also don't quite understand how the MSCTAU I might buy are really mine in terms of having the private key for the address...compared to every other presale I experienced.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 16, 2015, 01:46:10 PM
Hm, came here due to the Ethereum - Tau Article on The Cointelegraph.

I read the article but I don't see an advantage on the userside compared to any smart contract form, Ether or the proposed BTC smart conracts.

I also don't quite understand how the MSCTAU I might buy are really mine in terms of having the private key for the address...compared to every other presale I experienced.

The CT article indeed doesn't get into the fine details. Please have a look at the docs and ask any question.
The coins (which are intermediate only) are over the Omni (aka Master) protocol. They are encoded over the Bitcoin's blockchain, and you store your coins in a BTC address, with same privkey/pubkey, ownership, transferring, and everything else as in cryptocoins.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: SmokingSkull on August 16, 2015, 02:18:06 PM
Hm, came here due to the Ethereum - Tau Article on The Cointelegraph.

I read the article but I don't see an advantage on the userside compared to any smart contract form, Ether or the proposed BTC smart conracts.

I also don't quite understand how the MSCTAU I might buy are really mine in terms of having the private key for the address...compared to every other presale I experienced.

The CT article indeed doesn't get into the fine details. Please have a look at the docs and ask any question.
The coins (which are intermediate only) are over the Omni (aka Master) protocol. They are encoded over the Bitcoin's blockchain, and you store your coins in a BTC address, with same privkey/pubkey, ownership, transferring, and everything else as in cryptocoins.


So Now I ask myself what has the Tau Chain to do with the Master protocol?
For the later ease of transferring "coins" when u run genesis?

thx


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 16, 2015, 02:20:05 PM
Hm, came here due to the Ethereum - Tau Article on The Cointelegraph.

I read the article but I don't see an advantage on the userside compared to any smart contract form, Ether or the proposed BTC smart conracts.

I also don't quite understand how the MSCTAU I might buy are really mine in terms of having the private key for the address...compared to every other presale I experienced.

The CT article indeed doesn't get into the fine details. Please have a look at the docs and ask any question.
The coins (which are intermediate only) are over the Omni (aka Master) protocol. They are encoded over the Bitcoin's blockchain, and you store your coins in a BTC address, with same privkey/pubkey, ownership, transferring, and everything else as in cryptocoins.


So Now I ask myself what has the Tau Chain to do with the Master protocol?
For the later ease of transferring "coins" when u run genesis?

thx

yes, tau has nothing to do with master/omni or btc, except for the intermediate Agoras coins that will be converted to the real Agoras coins upon its genesis.
also note that tau as for itself have no coin at all, the coins are for a financial economy to be built over tau, namely, Agoras.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Janitor on August 16, 2015, 02:33:59 PM
Can someone tell me what token owners get in return?

That part is extremely fuzzy. PoS, someone said, but what about it? Rewards can be set arbitrarily later, so they may or may not turn out to be ... rewarding.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 16, 2015, 02:38:37 PM
Can someone tell me what token owners get in return?


Agoras will be an economy offering many new features, like trustlessly hiring programmers (as in the blogpost Code and Money), or hiring other professionals (c.f. Bitagoras), or computer resources (like Zennet), or release coins for any provable "thing", at the sense of tau's proofs.
All Agoras' markets will have one coin. Those coins are being pre-sold, and the msc intermediate token is only for buyers to have something transferrable in hand and will be converted to the real coins. So the msc tokens will cease being operational upon Agoras' genesis where the actual coins take place, and the buyers get a share on Agoras economy.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 16, 2015, 02:40:56 PM
Can someone tell me what token owners get in return?

That part is extremely fuzzy. PoS, someone said, but what about it? Rewards can be set arbitrarily later, so they may or may not turn out to be ... rewarding.


No, not PoS at all. Please see my comments to Synechist at the CT article http://cointelegraph.com/news/115118/tau-chain-a-decentralized-app-store-with-greater-flexibility-than-ethereum


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Janitor on August 16, 2015, 03:50:15 PM
Can someone tell me what token owners get in return?


Agoras will be an economy offering many new features, like trustlessly hiring programmers (as in the blogpost Code and Money), or hiring other professionals (c.f. Bitagoras), or computer resources (like Zennet), or release coins for any provable "thing", at the sense of tau's proofs.
All Agoras' markets will have one coin. Those coins are being pre-sold, and the msc intermediate token is only for buyers to have something transferrable in hand and will be converted to the real coins. So the msc tokens will cease being operational upon Agoras' genesis where the actual coins take place, and the buyers get a share on Agoras economy.

Okay, so it's like "app fuel" for one or more markets?

But it seems it's not possible to objectively estimate future "value" of such tokens, so how is one supposed to figure out whether to buy or not?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 16, 2015, 03:54:01 PM
Can someone tell me what token owners get in return?


Agoras will be an economy offering many new features, like trustlessly hiring programmers (as in the blogpost Code and Money), or hiring other professionals (c.f. Bitagoras), or computer resources (like Zennet), or release coins for any provable "thing", at the sense of tau's proofs.
All Agoras' markets will have one coin. Those coins are being pre-sold, and the msc intermediate token is only for buyers to have something transferrable in hand and will be converted to the real coins. So the msc tokens will cease being operational upon Agoras' genesis where the actual coins take place, and the buyers get a share on Agoras economy.

Okay, so it's like "app fuel" for one or more markets?

But it seems it's not possible to objectively estimate future "value" of such tokens, so how is one supposed to figure out whether to buy or not?

not app fuel at all, we don't need that model since we have decidable logic, but to get to your point:
the coin will be used to replace giant markets: many of the hardware market, HR market (hiring professionals, not only finding them but the whole process being p2p), software development market, search engines, social networks and so forth as part of its uses are being described at the last page of https://docs.google.com/document/d/16239hEjL_IgXYsk2I6RMjMKhmUte30leYI3jJ-Vgp3M/edit


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mrz123 on August 16, 2015, 04:33:13 PM
I invested 1 btc. I hope to get 1 million dollars profit :o


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Bisha on August 16, 2015, 04:41:34 PM
Dear Friends,

I'd like to announce that from this moment, Agoras intermediate tokens are being traded in https://masterxchange.com/market.php?currency=msctau

Please note that there are many unsold coins (+90%) and we keep selling through the exchange, so expect a high supply of coins for now. Before the final Agoras coins will go out, we will destroy all unsold coins (as promised long ago), and the trade will "get to normal" without massive amount of coins being sold by us.

Recall that there are 42M intermediate tokens, representing 100% of all future Agoras coins. Agoras won't have creation of new coins, but all of its coins will be generated upon genesis and delivered to their owners, either right away or in a slow release in order not to flood the market. If we pick the slow release method, everyone with no exceptions will be subject to that constraint.

At this opportunity I'll mention that HolyTransactions.com, an online wallet service, began to support our tokens.
Sales term and conditions appear at http://www.idni.org


HolyTransactions actually tried to scam BitShares community. They managed to get a delegate position promising to develop stuff yet they got the funds but never communicated or delivered anything so beware.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jibble on August 16, 2015, 05:34:15 PM
Can someone tell me what token owners get in return?


Agoras will be an economy offering many new features, like trustlessly hiring programmers (as in the blogpost Code and Money), or hiring other professionals (c.f. Bitagoras), or computer resources (like Zennet), or release coins for any provable "thing", at the sense of tau's proofs.
All Agoras' markets will have one coin. Those coins are being pre-sold, and the msc intermediate token is only for buyers to have something transferrable in hand and will be converted to the real coins. So the msc tokens will cease being operational upon Agoras' genesis where the actual coins take place, and the buyers get a share on Agoras economy.

Okay, so it's like "app fuel" for one or more markets?

But it seems it's not possible to objectively estimate future "value" of such tokens, so how is one supposed to figure out whether to buy or not?

checking out the blog might help get a better understanding of the system and how and in what ways things can and are implemented into tau.

http://www.idni.org/blog

this one likely gives the best picture of its abilities and maybe future worth

http://www.idni.org/blog/post6
 


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 16, 2015, 08:38:55 PM
Apropos Core/XT fork, this is exactly the problem with the fixedness of the protocol. Since tau's client downloads its own code from the blockchain, and every block is a new client code, no need to fork in order to make any change to the protocol (except breaking the logic's consistency etc). ether couldn't have that too since their protocol is fixed as btc


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mrz123 on August 16, 2015, 09:40:54 PM
I think you would get more funding that you deserve for this project if you do more marketing, make a better website, better graphics, make youtube infomercial videos, do more interviews. Then I think you would get all the funding you want for this project so you can make it a success.

The world needs the technology that you are developing. I wish you and your project success.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 16, 2015, 09:42:11 PM
I think you would get more funding that you deserve for this project if you do more marketing, make a better website, better graphics, make youtube infomercial videos, do more interviews. Then I think you would get all the funding you want for this project so you can make it a success.

I definitely agree, and upon all - a working tau client, isn't it so? I'm in a marathon to bring it ASAP.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: statdude on August 16, 2015, 09:42:20 PM
watching this to read later.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: NILIcoin on August 16, 2015, 10:07:03 PM
Apropos Core/XT fork, this is exactly the problem with the fixedness of the protocol. Since tau's client downloads its own code from the blockchain, and every block is a new client code, no need to fork in order to make any change to the protocol (except breaking the logic's consistency etc). ether couldn't have that too since their protocol is fixed as btc

Yes! if anyone was wondering about the tau project, that is one important answer.Tau is made for changes.  If we want a system that can be trusted to hold for sometime it need to have the change built into its core logic.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: SmokingSkull on August 17, 2015, 10:16:53 AM
I think you would get more funding that you deserve for this project if you do more marketing, make a better website, better graphics, make youtube infomercial videos, do more interviews. Then I think you would get all the funding you want for this project so you can make it a success.

The world needs the technology that you are developing. I wish you and your project success.

Well, no big media attention, the easier to run away. No sign of github yet...
better waiting


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: smaragda on August 17, 2015, 10:21:30 AM
No sign of github yet...

https://github.com/naturalog/tauchain


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 17, 2015, 10:23:21 AM
I think you would get more funding that you deserve for this project if you do more marketing, make a better website, better graphics, make youtube infomercial videos, do more interviews. Then I think you would get all the funding you want for this project so you can make it a success.

The world needs the technology that you are developing. I wish you and your project success.

Well, no big media attention, the easier to run away. No sign of github yet...
better waiting

media: last article  http://cointelegraph.com/news/115118/tau-chain-a-decentralized-app-store-with-greater-flexibility-than-ethereum
also wide exposure of Zennet (which is now a ""little"" feature in Agoras) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.msg8321043#msg8321043

github: http://github.com/naturalog/tauchain


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: SmokingSkull on August 17, 2015, 10:42:26 AM
I think you would get more funding that you deserve for this project if you do more marketing, make a better website, better graphics, make youtube infomercial videos, do more interviews. Then I think you would get all the funding you want for this project so you can make it a success.

The world needs the technology that you are developing. I wish you and your project success.

Well, no big media attention, the easier to run away. No sign of github yet...
better waiting

media: last article  http://cointelegraph.com/news/115118/tau-chain-a-decentralized-app-store-with-greater-flexibility-than-ethereum
also wide exposure of Zennet (which is now a ""little"" feature in Agoras) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.msg8321043#msg8321043

github: http://github.com/naturalog/tauchain

my mistake. thx.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: johny08 on August 17, 2015, 12:02:43 PM
Can someone tell me what token owners get in return?


Agoras will be an economy offering many new features, like trustlessly hiring programmers (as in the blogpost Code and Money), or hiring other professionals (c.f. Bitagoras), or computer resources (like Zennet), or release coins for any provable "thing", at the sense of tau's proofs.
All Agoras' markets will have one coin. Those coins are being pre-sold, and the msc intermediate token is only for buyers to have something transferrable in hand and will be converted to the real coins. So the msc tokens will cease being operational upon Agoras' genesis where the actual coins take place, and the buyers get a share on Agoras economy.

Okay, so it's like "app fuel" for one or more markets?

But it seems it's not possible to objectively estimate future "value" of such tokens, so how is one supposed to figure out whether to buy or not?

checking out the blog might help get a better understanding of the system and how and in what ways things can and are implemented into tau.

http://www.idni.org/blog

this one likely gives the best picture of its abilities and maybe future worth

http://www.idni.org/blog/post6
 

Augora is not nothing more, what can not be programmed on Ethereum.

Please correct me if I am wrong. Please, argument with links or examples.

Thank you in advance for great conversation.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 17, 2015, 12:11:19 PM
Augora is not nothing more, what can not be programmed on Ethereum.

Please correct me if I am wrong. Please, argument with links or examples.

Thank you in advance for great conversation.

I can answer in more detail later, but for now see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg12158861#msg12158861 and you also cannot do www.idni.org/blog/code-and-money with ethereum ("thanks" to the Turing completeness as enhanced a bit more at https://docs.google.com/document/d/16239hEjL_IgXYsk2I6RMjMKhmUte30leYI3jJ-Vgp3M/edit#heading=h.2bcszerkwj2g )


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on August 17, 2015, 06:10:06 PM
who is selling at lower price now? I hope not the Tau-Chain team as it was promised to raise the price not to lower it...


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 17, 2015, 07:05:22 PM
who is selling at lower price now? I hope not the Tau-Chain team as it was promised to raise the price not to lower it...

It is some early buyer as can be seen at http://omnichest.info/lookupsp.aspx?sp=35 tx 3f252


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Luckybit on August 17, 2015, 11:58:51 PM
I read the whitepaper, looked at the code, and with that understanding I can see Tau-Chain has massive potential.

The uncertainty is whether or not it can be developed to meet it's potential. If it can do what I think it can do, then it should be self funding and self sustainable once it gets up and running, similar to Bitshares, Ethereum, or NXT, where the community will be able to simply vote on proposals or fund new development using the market mechanisms.

Tau-Chain also has some unexpected surprises in how it has evolvability, which is something a lot of developers overlook. The only problem with Tau-Chain at this time is the difficulty in explaining the concept, and the uncertainty around whether or not it will work, but that is the same uncertainty Bitcoin had, Mastercoin had, Bitshares had, NXT, had, Ethereum had, so if you give money to Ohad consider it donation for the furthering of a science project which has potential to change the world if successful.



Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 18, 2015, 02:15:48 PM
I read the whitepaper, looked at the code, and with that understanding I can see Tau-Chain has massive potential.

The uncertainty is whether or not it can be developed to meet it's potential. If it can do what I think it can do, then it should be self funding and self sustainable once it gets up and running, similar to Bitshares, Ethereum, or NXT, where the community will be able to simply vote on proposals or fund new development using the market mechanisms.

Tau-Chain also has some unexpected surprises in how it has evolvability, which is something a lot of developers overlook. The only problem with Tau-Chain at this time is the difficulty in explaining the concept, and the uncertainty around whether or not it will work, but that is the same uncertainty Bitcoin had, Mastercoin had, Bitshares had, NXT, had, Ethereum had, so if you give money to Ohad consider it donation for the furthering of a science project which has potential to change the world if successful.



Thanks!
Would be nice if you could point to what you're not convinced is possible, and maybe I'll be able to point to existing implementations of such.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on August 18, 2015, 03:11:18 PM
Please try to find a possiblity to prevent pool mining. This is in my opinion the biggest issue of BTC...


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 18, 2015, 03:12:47 PM
Please try to find a possiblity to prevent pool mining. This is in my opinion the biggest issue of BTC...

On tau one shouldn't be concerned about those issues at all. See my replies to Synechist's comments on http://cointelegraph.com/news/115118/tau-chain-a-decentralized-app-store-with-greater-flexibility-than-ethereum  and the protocol's flexibility https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg12158861#msg12158861


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on August 18, 2015, 03:21:59 PM
Please try to find a possiblity to prevent pool mining. This is in my opinion the biggest issue of BTC...

On tau one shouldn't be concerned about those issues at all. See my replies to Synechist's comments on http://cointelegraph.com/news/115118/tau-chain-a-decentralized-app-store-with-greater-flexibility-than-ethereum  and the protocol's flexibility https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg12158861#msg12158861

what about making a pool and try to change the protocols base logic with a 51% attack?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 18, 2015, 03:25:40 PM
Please try to find a possiblity to prevent pool mining. This is in my opinion the biggest issue of BTC...

On tau one shouldn't be concerned about those issues at all. See my replies to Synechist's comments on http://cointelegraph.com/news/115118/tau-chain-a-decentralized-app-store-with-greater-flexibility-than-ethereum  and the protocol's flexibility https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg12158861#msg12158861

what about making a pool and try to change the protocols base logic with a 51% attack?

Nothing at that scope has to be predefined - it can be changed with time according to a method the users themselves set.
Like it is possible to create a coin over tau that will be programmed to change its behavior with votes of X% of clients, or stake, or anything.
So it is ok to "make mistakes" like letting the pool problems arise, and when it arises, just to change the rules without having to fork.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on August 18, 2015, 03:35:41 PM

Nothing at that scope has to be predefined - it can be changed with time according to a method the users themselves set.
Like it is possible to create a coin over tau that will be programmed to change its behavior with votes of X% of clients, or stake, or anything.
So it is ok to "make mistakes" like letting the pool problems arise, and when it arises, just to change the rules without having to fork.

But you wrote something of a "basic logic", that can't be changed. So if someone wants to change that, for example to a logic, that makes all other included logic senceless?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 18, 2015, 03:51:45 PM

Nothing at that scope has to be predefined - it can be changed with time according to a method the users themselves set.
Like it is possible to create a coin over tau that will be programmed to change its behavior with votes of X% of clients, or stake, or anything.
So it is ok to "make mistakes" like letting the pool problems arise, and when it arises, just to change the rules without having to fork.

But you wrote something of a "basic logic", that can't be changed. So if someone wants to change that, for example to a logic, that makes all other included logic senceless?

ah, the logic itself means the very low level rules of logic, the foundation of mathematics, literally. like, you cannot modify modus ponens in tau, of course, and that's the low level we speak about here. or, you cannot have a block which is logically incosistent (i.e. contradicts itself).

please recall - tau stands for tautology! :)


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on August 18, 2015, 03:54:29 PM
so, what happens for example, if someone starts a "51% attack" where the logic is manipulated in a way, that inconsistent blocks are allowed?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 18, 2015, 04:00:14 PM
so, what happens for example, if someone starts a "51% attack" where the logic is manipulated in a way, that inconsistent blocks are allowed?

51% attack is irrelevant here because a node doesn't have to believe the majority where it can verify logical consistency itself.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 18, 2015, 04:10:38 PM
Which goes back to the problem with Turing completeness. On Turing complete languages, you can prove a statement and also prove its negation!
An example is the Halting problem.
But any contradiction (like Russel's paradox) can be elevated in a Turing machine to prove *any* statement being both true and false.

To be more precise:
Godel gave us two options - completeness or consistency. Can't have both.
Turing completeness gives away consistency.
Martin-Lof type theory (tau's logic) is consistent, decidable, but is not complete only at the sense of infinite computers (in which Turing model allows).


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on August 18, 2015, 04:28:30 PM
Ok, good to see, that you already thought about all those things. Just wanted to give suggestions.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 18, 2015, 04:29:16 PM
Ok, good to see, that you already thought about all those things. Just wanted to give suggestions.

And I thank you for that! Will be glad for more issues to be raised.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Luckybit on August 19, 2015, 02:57:49 AM
I read the whitepaper, looked at the code, and with that understanding I can see Tau-Chain has massive potential.

The uncertainty is whether or not it can be developed to meet it's potential. If it can do what I think it can do, then it should be self funding and self sustainable once it gets up and running, similar to Bitshares, Ethereum, or NXT, where the community will be able to simply vote on proposals or fund new development using the market mechanisms.

Tau-Chain also has some unexpected surprises in how it has evolvability, which is something a lot of developers overlook. The only problem with Tau-Chain at this time is the difficulty in explaining the concept, and the uncertainty around whether or not it will work, but that is the same uncertainty Bitcoin had, Mastercoin had, Bitshares had, NXT, had, Ethereum had, so if you give money to Ohad consider it donation for the furthering of a science project which has potential to change the world if successful.



Thanks!
Would be nice if you could point to what you're not convinced is possible, and maybe I'll be able to point to existing implementations of such.

What I meant is that while everything about what you are doing is logically sound, the theory is correct, the uncertainty is whether or not you'll be able to build out the design with the limited funding you've received so far. The design is excellent so I can't really find any flaw with it but it also seems like it would take years to code.

What I like about it is that it seems to be the most scalable and flexible design possible, while also being secure. You've changed my opinions on Turing completeness, I now see that the Tauchain way of doing things is correct.
Please try to find a possiblity to prevent pool mining. This is in my opinion the biggest issue of BTC...

From my understanding, Tauchain can run Bitcoin inside it, or really run any practical implementation of any algorithm. So if Tauchain is built I don't see why you can't do far better than Bitcoin from within the Tauchain space.

Sorry if I'm not the best at explaining things but I see the same sort of potential with Tauchain that I saw with Bitcoin. Bitcoin is like an  app which can run on Tauchain, and all apps are just proofs, algorithms. So any app should be able to run on Tauchain in theory without any practical limitation. Ethereum will have some issues because of the insistence on being Turing complete which while sounding nice but I see no practical benefit yet I see security risks.

The only concern I have with Tauchain is people might not understand it. It has the potential but just like with Bitcoin, a lot of people might have to learn a lot of new concepts to understand what exactly it is. I suppose once there is a demo out there, so people can have some evidence that it works in practice rather than in theory, then we will see adoption.

The main issue I think people have when they first learn about Tauchain is that it is doing something they previously thought was impossible. Of course if you look at the references section of the whitepaper you can trace back the thought processes of Ohad to find that it is plausible, it just hasn't been tested in practice as far as I know. I've not seen anything like Tauchain built before, only talked about.




Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Tobo on August 20, 2015, 05:19:50 PM
Are you still selling the coins on materxchange? If so, has the price gone up from 0.0006?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 20, 2015, 05:35:23 PM
Are you still selling the coins on materxchange? If so, has the price gone up from 0.0006?

Yes, the price has been updated for two reasons: the 2% weekly price update, and adjusting the price according to the new BTC/USD rate. All according to the terms published here in february.
BTW even though you see several asks there, ours is only the highest one. The rest are by some early buyer as I mentioned a few comments above.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on August 20, 2015, 06:11:29 PM
BTW even though you see several asks there, ours is only the highest one. The rest are by some early buyer as I mentioned a few comments above.

So typical. These people are so annoying. Buying just to sell it on the first profit...


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 20, 2015, 06:16:01 PM
BTW even though you see several asks there, ours is only the highest one. The rest are by some early buyer as I mentioned a few comments above.

So typical. These people are so annoying. Buying just to sell it on the first profit...

It is only one buyer (as can be seen in the block explorer), so I guess he got into liquidity problem, that's possible.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Tobo on August 21, 2015, 01:08:52 AM
It is only one buyer (as can be seen in the block explorer), so I guess he got into liquidity problem, that's possible.

What is the cheapest price those early investors paid?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 21, 2015, 01:16:12 AM
It is only one buyer (as can be seen in the block explorer), so I guess he got into liquidity problem, that's possible.

What is the cheapest price those early investors paid?

7.5 cent per coin


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: btccashacc on August 21, 2015, 01:22:26 AM
It is only one buyer (as can be seen in the block explorer), so I guess he got into liquidity problem, that's possible.

What is the cheapest price those early investors paid?

7.5 cent per coin

wow  :o only 7.5 cent per coin :)


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 21, 2015, 01:29:09 AM
It is only one buyer (as can be seen in the block explorer), so I guess he got into liquidity problem, that's possible.

What is the cheapest price those early investors paid?

7.5 cent per coin

wow  :o only 7.5 cent per coin :)

as published on feb https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.msg10403838#msg10403838


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: johny08 on August 21, 2015, 08:02:21 PM
It is only one buyer (as can be seen in the block explorer), so I guess he got into liquidity problem, that's possible.

What is the cheapest price those early investors paid?

7.5 cent per coin

wow  :o only 7.5 cent per coin :)

as published on feb https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.msg10403838#msg10403838

And now we are at 16.6 cents. 100% rise. Its a complitly Ponzi!

Just the jump last week was 20% (!) percent, instead of 2%.

I would suggest everyone to get the fingers away from this product.

After half a year of a ponzi life (start february) you can think, now the whales are coming inside and then three months later its makes boom.

Its kind of nerdy ponzi, but 99% ponzi. Early investors just waiting to get out. Nothing more or less.

No developer would spend so much time answering all the time the same questions here. You would have no time to work seriously, IMO.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 21, 2015, 08:05:43 PM
And now we are at 16.6 cents. 100% rise. Its a complitly Ponzi!

incentivizing early buyers is ponzi? it's even much modest rate than common.

Just the jump last week was 20% (!) percent, instead of 2%.

because all calculations are in USD rather BTC.

I would suggest everyone to get the fingers away from this product.

After half a year of a ponzi life (start february) you can think, now the whales are coming inside and then three months later its makes boom.

Its kind of nerdy ponzi, but 99% ponzi. Early investors just waiting to get out. Nothing more or less.

No developer would spend so much time answering all the time the same questions here. You would have no time to work seriously, IMO.

checkout the github, see I'm working very hard..


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on August 22, 2015, 04:14:28 PM
It is only one buyer (as can be seen in the block explorer), so I guess he got into liquidity problem, that's possible.

What is the cheapest price those early investors paid?

7.5 cent per coin

wow  :o only 7.5 cent per coin :)

as published on feb https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.msg10403838#msg10403838

And now we are at 16.6 cents. 100% rise. Its a complitly Ponzi!

Just the jump last week was 20% (!) percent, instead of 2%.

I would suggest everyone to get the fingers away from this product.

After half a year of a ponzi life (start february) you can think, now the whales are coming inside and then three months later its makes boom.

Its kind of nerdy ponzi, but 99% ponzi. Early investors just waiting to get out. Nothing more or less.

No developer would spend so much time answering all the time the same questions here. You would have no time to work seriously, IMO.

There are investors that believe in something and there are investors, that just want to get out with a good result.
But as an early investor you SHOULD get more than a later one. You wait for a long time with your money blocked and maybe lost.
I like to invest something in the first minutes and look at it after years. But not, if I can also wait for that 2 years and get the same piece of cake...
So go in, or don't but don't complain, that it's getting more expensive later fudster.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: fartbags on August 25, 2015, 06:36:05 PM



The marketcap is 7 million USD. The project looks cool but I'm not sure if this should be valued at more than 1 million dollars right now today.




Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 25, 2015, 07:54:53 PM



The marketcap is 7 million USD. The project looks cool but I'm not sure if this should be valued at more than 1 million dollars right now today.




Can you make some sort of comparison to other projects and valuations?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: fartbags on August 26, 2015, 12:52:27 AM



The marketcap is 7 million USD. The project looks cool but I'm not sure if this should be valued at more than 1 million dollars right now today.




Can you make some sort of comparison to other projects and valuations?



I have no idea what this even does. I've never seen a demo video of what you can do with TAU.

Post some screen capture videos of yourself using it.




Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 26, 2015, 12:55:34 AM
The marketcap is 7 million USD. The project looks cool but I'm not sure if this should be valued at more than 1 million dollars right now today.
Can you make some sort of comparison to other projects and valuations?
I have no idea what this even does. I've never seen a demo video of what you can do with TAU.

No video yet, but did you catch www.idni.org/blog/code-and-money ?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: kingscrown on August 26, 2015, 12:59:34 AM
i like the idea, something new at least.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: fartbags on August 26, 2015, 01:02:29 AM
i like the idea, something new at least.



I like the idea also. It sucks I have to miss out because its way over priced.




Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Hueristic on August 26, 2015, 03:14:07 AM
i like the idea, something new at least.

I like the original distributed computer idea. Wonder where that went?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 26, 2015, 03:16:01 AM
i like the idea, something new at least.

I like the original distributed computer idea. Wonder where that went?

It never went but is only one among many other features in Agoras, most of them (which I try to put emphasis on) are possible only thanks to tau's unique features.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: fartbags on August 26, 2015, 06:09:50 PM
The marketcap is 7 million USD. The project looks cool but I'm not sure if this should be valued at more than 1 million dollars right now today.
Can you make some sort of comparison to other projects and valuations?
I have no idea what this even does. I've never seen a demo video of what you can do with TAU.

No video yet, but did you catch www.idni.org/blog/code-and-money ?



Don't you have the majority of TAU? If you consider TAU money, then you have it all. Now do some code! LOL




Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 26, 2015, 06:23:56 PM
The marketcap is 7 million USD. The project looks cool but I'm not sure if this should be valued at more than 1 million dollars right now today.
Can you make some sort of comparison to other projects and valuations?
I have no idea what this even does. I've never seen a demo video of what you can do with TAU.

No video yet, but did you catch www.idni.org/blog/code-and-money ?



Don't you have the majority of TAU? If you consider TAU money, then you have it all. Now do some code! LOL




have a look at the code github.com/naturalog/tauchain


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 27, 2015, 06:24:06 AM
A special offer to wholesales in september was announced: http://www.idni.org/blog/sep-special


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on August 27, 2015, 06:44:19 PM
I have a few questions:
- Do you have a specification (ontology, BNF grammar, spec document...) of the Tau language as it is now and/or as it is supposed to become once all the networking and crypto features are built in?
- Where can I find a Tau code example that emulates simple procedural behavior like a loop for instance?
- Will the Tau node to be a full fledged RDF triple store and SPARQL end-point?
- How do you plan to make the transition from knowledge (decision of spawning a new socket for instance) to action (making a system call to create a new socket): will each i/o module poll the knowledge base periodically for relevant action? Will you place control points at key steps of the inference process to intercept propositions with a known action semantic and take action?
- Will input from i/o module trigger asynchronous reasonning or will it just add new propositions in the knowledge base for some synchronous process to reason with at next iteration?
- Is the interface between the knowledge base and the system level functionalities already developed or specified? Where can I find further details?
- How can Tau guarantee that it can determine the upper bound of when a program can halt in less time than it would take to run the program? What if the program is already the shortest possible program to solve the problem it represents? At most I could imagine how code analysis could help determining a big-o estimate of the program complexity but then that won't help much to make sure that the program can run within the time boundaries of a given blockhain block as was suggested in the cointelegraph interview.
- Where can I find more (code / documents) about the JIT compilation of the Tau language?
- Are there archives of IRC discussions / forum discussions / email discussions etc that can help understanding decisions made around the design?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 27, 2015, 09:02:36 PM
I have a few questions:
- Do you have a specification (ontology, BNF grammar, spec document...) of the Tau language as it is now and/or as it is supposed to become once all the networking and crypto features are built in?

The syntax of the language itself is not new. The RDF family is basically all syntax-sugaring to NQuads http://www.w3.org/TR/n-quads/ so all RDF languages can be converted to NQuads, while plenty of converters out there. Current tau's code can read NQuads, JSON-LD, and (yet partial) Notation3.

Supporting network features etc. is done via builtins, which is also a common mechanism among RDF reasoners. See for example http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/doc/CwmBuiltins

- Where can I find a Tau code example that emulates simple procedural behavior like a loop for instance?

Let me use the cwm builtins I just linked to demonstrate printing numbers from 1 to 10:

1 log:outputString 1.
{ ?x log:outputString ?x. (1 ?x) math:sum ?y. ?y math:lessThan 11 } => { ?y log:outputString ?y }.

see http://pastebin.com/H2gqLUzC

- Will the Tau node to be a full fledged RDF triple store and SPARQL end-point?

Except I won't promise now we'll use exact SPARQL syntax, then sure. Tau can be equivalently described as a decentralized triplestore with dependent types.

- How do you plan to make the transition from knowledge (decision of spawning a new socket for instance) to action (making a system call to create a new socket): will each i/o module poll the knowledge base periodically for relevant action? Will you place control points at key steps of the inference process to intercept propositions with a known action semantic and take action?
- Will input from i/o module trigger asynchronous reasonning or will it just add new propositions in the knowledge base for some synchronous process to reason with at next iteration?

At the syntax level, IO is just another builtin predicate, like { ?z a tau:tcpEndpoint } => { ?y tau:tcpConnect ?z }. At the typesystem level, we of course have Effect types/Monads https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(functional_programming)
The reasoning flow does not change at all due to IO (in general), but types originated from IO are tagged as effect types and of course aren't treated as "pure truth". A good reference is how Idris use side effects http://eb.host.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/drafts/eff-tutorial.pdf

- Is the interface between the knowledge base and the system level functionalities already developed or specified? Where can I find further details?

Apologies but I didn't really understand the question.

- How can Tau guarantee that it can determine the upper bound of when a program can halt in less time than it would take to run the program? What if the program is already the shortest possible program to solve the problem it represents? At most I could imagine how code analysis could help determining a big-o estimate of the program complexity but then that won't help much to make sure that the program can run within the time boundaries of a given blockhain block as was suggested in the cointelegraph interview.

This goes right back to decidability, and to the point that one shouldn't expect the autoprover to prove all math by itself instantly.

Assume I write a tau or idris program that halts on the first zero of Riemann's Zeta which is not on the critical line. Of course, no one expect the prover to determine quickly if this program ever halt. If I knew how to do that magic, I'd already take $6M by solving the 6 math open problems of Clay institute :)

On the other hand, since the logic is decidable, the provable statements are exactly all correct statements and vice versa. Since every program has some runtime complexity, it is apriorily possible to give a proof for a runtime of any program.

So assume I wrote some simpler code with runtime complexity that I know how to compute and prove, then I can specify my proof or parts of it, and let the prover finish the missing details.

- Where can I find more (code / documents) about the JIT compilation of the Tau language?

This is exactly what I work on these days, so I'll have to finish first.

- Are there archives of IRC discussions / forum discussions / email discussions etc that can help understanding decisions made around the design?

I don't think there's anything one can easily track. ~10MB of text won't help anyone. So for now one can only ask and get answers, and with time we'll document everything.


Please let me know if I missed something or if other questions arise.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 27, 2015, 09:59:57 PM
Also I encourage you to play with http://attempto.ifi.uzh.ch/race/


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: herkuljee on August 28, 2015, 06:13:11 AM



The marketcap is 7 million USD. The project looks cool but I'm not sure if this should be valued at more than 1 million dollars right now today.




This looks like a strong idea even though I don't understand much of the white paper details. Is Tau-Chain purely valued through this Agoras? If later someone wants to use Tau-Chain to solve some problem they buy Agoras (from market?) and pay for the usage of Tau-Chain network (how pricing the usage?). I understood inside Tau-Chain own rules can be set for that so can they make a rule to let someone use lot of computing power without charging anything? Or maybe I don't understand the logic where the value of Agoras might come..

If one Agoras is around 0.0006 and market cap is 7M USD or 30000 BTC (where to see the market cap?), then little over 50M Agoras is owned by people? And there is 147B Agoras to be shared. So 0.034% of the total amount is shared at the moment? Are my conclusion/numbers correct?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 28, 2015, 06:33:45 AM
This looks like a strong idea even though I don't understand much of the white paper details. Is Tau-Chain purely valued through this Agoras? If later someone wants to use Tau-Chain to solve some problem they buy Agoras (from market?) and pay for the usage of Tau-Chain network (how pricing the usage?). I understood inside Tau-Chain own rules can be set for that so can they make a rule to let someone use lot of computing power without charging anything? Or maybe I don't understand the logic where the value of Agoras might come..

Tau is completely independent in Agoras or its coins. Agoras, on the other hand, is an application over tau. Everyone can write apps over tau - that's the very intention. So formally, tau as for itself is not funded. Also it does not come with a coin, but coins can be programmed over it.
Since after all one has to develop economical part over tau, using tau's unique features, we're going to do it as Agoras. And we do need to distribute the coins somehow, hence the presale.

If one Agoras is around 0.0006 and market cap is 7M USD or 30000 BTC (where to see the market cap?), then little over 50M Agoras is owned by people? And there is 147B Agoras to be shared. So 0.034% of the total amount is shared at the moment? Are my conclusion/numbers correct?

No, the 42M intermediate tokens represent 100% of all future coins, no matter if they'll be 147B or any other number, and the prices refer to those intermediate tokens.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: LOrrav on August 29, 2015, 12:39:44 AM

Since after all one has to develop economical part over tau, using tau's unique features, we're going to do it as Agoras. And we do need to distribute the coins somehow, hence the presale.


Can you explain more about this? What can I do, in terms of interfacing with Tau, with Agoras? Is it just another cryptocurrency that is just built using Tau, or does it have some special status or feature within Tau Chain? Why would anyone want to own Agoras over another cryptocurrency within Tau, or outside of Tau for that matter?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 29, 2015, 01:03:25 AM

Since after all one has to develop economical part over tau, using tau's unique features, we're going to do it as Agoras. And we do need to distribute the coins somehow, hence the presale.

Can you explain more about this? What can I do, in terms of interfacing with Tau, with Agoras? Is it just another cryptocurrency that is just built using Tau, or does it have some special status or feature within Tau Chain? Why would anyone want to own Agoras over another cryptocurrency within Tau, or outside of Tau for that matter?

Agoras is indeed "just another app" over tau. This is important to bear in mind. Everyone can create more currencies over tau, and tau doesn't have a coin as for itself.

But Agoras is of course far beyond a cryptocurrency. It will have markets for trading code for money in a totally secure and trustless way (as in Code and Money blogpost), allow renting computational power with or without verification of execution, renting professionals in video conference and micropayments, smart contracts, pay-for-proof wheter it's math homework or a program to write, decentralized intelligent search engine, and even more.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on August 29, 2015, 07:36:27 AM
Is it possible to write already apps on some alpha version? I would like to try out ;-)


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 29, 2015, 07:39:16 AM
Is it possible to write already apps on some alpha version? I would like to try out ;-)

For now you can do on tau what existing RDF reasoners would do (specifically Euler[EYE]) and at the same syntax, which is Turing complete btw. When we'll finish the typesystem it'll be essentially different, and ofc tau will cease to be Turing complete at that point.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: herkuljee on August 29, 2015, 11:49:46 AM

Since after all one has to develop economical part over tau, using tau's unique features, we're going to do it as Agoras. And we do need to distribute the coins somehow, hence the presale.

Can you explain more about this? What can I do, in terms of interfacing with Tau, with Agoras? Is it just another cryptocurrency that is just built using Tau, or does it have some special status or feature within Tau Chain? Why would anyone want to own Agoras over another cryptocurrency within Tau, or outside of Tau for that matter?

Agoras is indeed "just another app" over tau. This is important to bear in mind. Everyone can create more currencies over tau, and tau doesn't have a coin as for itself.

But Agoras is of course far beyond a cryptocurrency. It will have markets for trading code for money in a totally secure and trustless way (as in Code and Money blogpost), allow renting computational power with or without verification of execution, renting professionals in video conference and micropayments, smart contracts, pay-for-proof wheter it's math homework or a program to write, decentralized intelligent search engine, and even more.

What makes people who trade code asking Agoras in return of their services? Same applies for the other suggested markets, what obliges people to start using Agoras? They could ask, accept and take e.g. BTC, fiat or some other “app currency” instead?

Is there strong enough incentive for early adaptors and early coders to start asking compensations and stick in Agoras and what is that incentive? How sure it is that Agoras will be accepted as “the money” over tau? If not so and there’s no trading volume after IPO, price starts going down and coders easily abandon the Agoras ship…


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 29, 2015, 11:57:30 AM

Since after all one has to develop economical part over tau, using tau's unique features, we're going to do it as Agoras. And we do need to distribute the coins somehow, hence the presale.

Can you explain more about this? What can I do, in terms of interfacing with Tau, with Agoras? Is it just another cryptocurrency that is just built using Tau, or does it have some special status or feature within Tau Chain? Why would anyone want to own Agoras over another cryptocurrency within Tau, or outside of Tau for that matter?

Agoras is indeed "just another app" over tau. This is important to bear in mind. Everyone can create more currencies over tau, and tau doesn't have a coin as for itself.

But Agoras is of course far beyond a cryptocurrency. It will have markets for trading code for money in a totally secure and trustless way (as in Code and Money blogpost), allow renting computational power with or without verification of execution, renting professionals in video conference and micropayments, smart contracts, pay-for-proof wheter it's math homework or a program to write, decentralized intelligent search engine, and even more.

What makes people who trade code asking Agoras in return of their services? Same applies for the other suggested markets, what obliges people to start using Agoras? They could ask, accept and take e.g. BTC, fiat or some other “app currency” instead?

Is there strong enough incentive for early adaptors and early coders to start asking compensations and stick in Agoras and what is that incentive? How sure it is that Agoras will be accepted as “the money” over tau? If not so and there’s no trading volume after IPO, price starts going down and coders easily abandon the Agoras ship…

Accepting BTC or fiat for features elevating tau's unique properties (such as decidability and proofs over code) is of course impossible - such features are impossible to be implement over existing chains, even ethereum's.
As for the risk that someone else will write another and better Agoras, I think such risk exists in every project that comes to mind.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: freedomfighter on August 29, 2015, 05:58:03 PM

Since after all one has to develop economical part over tau, using tau's unique features, we're going to do it as Agoras. And we do need to distribute the coins somehow, hence the presale.

Can you explain more about this? What can I do, in terms of interfacing with Tau, with Agoras? Is it just another cryptocurrency that is just built using Tau, or does it have some special status or feature within Tau Chain? Why would anyone want to own Agoras over another cryptocurrency within Tau, or outside of Tau for that matter?

Agoras is indeed "just another app" over tau. This is important to bear in mind. Everyone can create more currencies over tau, and tau doesn't have a coin as for itself.

But Agoras is of course far beyond a cryptocurrency. It will have markets for trading code for money in a totally secure and trustless way (as in Code and Money blogpost), allow renting computational power with or without verification of execution, renting professionals in video conference and micropayments, smart contracts, pay-for-proof wheter it's math homework or a program to write, decentralized intelligent search engine, and even more.

What makes people who trade code asking Agoras in return of their services? Same applies for the other suggested markets, what obliges people to start using Agoras? They could ask, accept and take e.g. BTC, fiat or some other “app currency” instead?

Is there strong enough incentive for early adaptors and early coders to start asking compensations and stick in Agoras and what is that incentive? How sure it is that Agoras will be accepted as “the money” over tau? If not so and there’s no trading volume after IPO, price starts going down and coders easily abandon the Agoras ship…

Accepting BTC or fiat for features elevating tau's unique properties (such as decidability and proofs over code) is of course impossible - such features are impossible to be implement over existing chains, even ethereum's.
As for the risk that someone else will write another and better Agoras, I think such risk exists in every project that comes to mind.

Maybe to phrase what he is asking differently: after various markets are created over Tau (Agoras that will require the Agora coin to use them)-- what stops one to create competing markets, also over tau (parallel to Agoras) with BTC, ETC, or any other crypto tools. Won't these have an advantage over the Agoras market? (an advantage in the sense that they'll utilize other coins without limits).

OR, even if the above is correct, is your intention with the Agoras to enable features that can utilize any coin but that like in ETHEREUM, will require Agoras an an underlying gas/fee/whatever for every transaction while also enabling them as a "classic coin" within that Inner world?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on August 29, 2015, 06:45:08 PM
- Do you have a specification (ontology, BNF grammar, spec document...) of the Tau language as it is now and/or as it is supposed to become once all the networking and crypto features are built in?
The syntax of the language itself is not new. The RDF family is basically all syntax-sugaring to NQuads http://www.w3.org/TR/n-quads/ so all RDF languages can be converted to NQuads, while plenty of converters out there. Current tau's code can read NQuads, JSON-LD, and (yet partial) Notation3.
I wasn't asking about RDF triples and NQuads: these are just a representation format. What I am asking is the specification of the Tau language itself. OWL2 for instance is the RDF implementation of a logic language called SROIQ(D) formally specified here (http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/people/ian.horrocks/Publications/download/2006/HoKS06a.pdf) that is a subset of description logic and its derivation as RDF based ontology is specified in great details here (http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-syntax/).
We know from the whitepaper that Tau is borrowing to constructive / intuitionist logic. But is it a subset, a variation, or does it implement the full logic? Is there a whitepaper or document covering the formalism? Is there a document that describes the ontology including the core logic and library of built-ins related properties?

Supporting network features etc. is done via builtins, which is also a common mechanism among RDF reasoners. See for example http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/doc/CwmBuiltins
Is Tau entirely structured around CWM? What about the builtins that are not already implemented by CWM? For instance DHT related features, RNG etc. Will you contribute them to the original CWM? Are you going to fork CWM to extend it? Or does CWM come with a way to register new builtins and if it does is it statical (compile time) or dynamic (runtime)?

- Where can I find a Tau code example that emulates simple procedural behavior like a loop for instance?

Let me use the cwm's builtins I just linked to demonstrate printing numbers from 1 to 10:
1 log:outputString 1.
{ ?x log:outputString ?x. (1 ?x) math:sum ?y. ?y math:lessThan 11 } => { ?y log:outputString ?y }.
see http://pastebin.com/H2gqLUzC
You are using the W3C swap/math and swap/log ontologies.
Are they a subset of the Tau ontology?
Again, that would need to be clarified. What IS valid Tau and what is not?

- How do you plan to make the transition from knowledge (decision of spawning a new socket for instance) to action (making a system call to create a new socket): will each i/o module poll the knowledge base periodically for relevant action? Will you place control points at key steps of the inference process to intercept propositions with a known action semantic and take action?
- Will input from i/o module trigger asynchronous reasonning or will it just add new propositions in the knowledge base for some synchronous process to reason with at next iteration?
At the syntax level, IO is just another builtin predicate, like { ?z a tau:tcpEndpoint } => { ?y tau:tcpConnect ?z }. At the typesystem level, we of course have Effect types/Monads https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(functional_programming)
The reasoning flow does not change at all due to IO (in general), but types originated from IO are tagged as effect types and of course aren't treated as "pure truth". A good reference is how Idris use side effects http://eb.host.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/drafts/eff-tutorial.pdf
If I understand correctly your reply I/O originated events and data are being incorporated as new facts that will be (lazy-)evaluated / stated next time the reasoner does a resolution that needs i/o related facts, which in other words means synchronous i/o. I can see how this is going to add a lot of latency, but let me read that Idris paper first and I'll get back with more questions

- Is the interface between the knowledge base and the system level functionalities already developed or specified? Where can I find further details?
Apologies but I didn't really understand the question.
You gave this example above: "{ ?z a tau:tcpEndpoint } => { ?y tau:tcpConnect ?z }".
Are the built-ins behind tau:tcpEndpoint and tau:tcpConnect already developed or specified in a document?
What will be all the built-ins introduced by Tau?

- How can Tau guarantee that it can determine the upper bound of when a program can halt in less time than it would take to run the program? What if the program is already the shortest possible program to solve the problem it represents? At most I could imagine how code analysis could help determining a big-o estimate of the program complexity but then that won't help much to make sure that the program can run within the time boundaries of a given blockhain block as was suggested in the cointelegraph interview.

This goes right back to decidability, and to the point that one shouldn't expect the autoprover to prove all math by itself instantly.

Let me quote HMC's reply to the question "How does it compare to Ethereum" in the interview on CoinTelegraph (http://cointelegraph.com/news/115118/tau-chain-a-decentralized-app-store-with-greater-flexibility-than-ethereum)
Quote from: HMC
To contrast, Tau is a decidable complete logic, per block, with Turing completeness recovered by the iteration of multiple blocks.  This means that we cannot compute any computable thing in one block, but we can know exactly how much resource expenditure a block will require to verify. We can still compute any computable thing; it may just require structuring the execution to run over the span of multiple blocks.  Because of this, Tau resources do not need to be backed directly by a token, and resource exchange can be negotiated by the users as they see fit.

In the context of the comparition with Ethereum, what I understand HMC to be saying is that the question of the maximum runtime of a contract is decidable which allows to break down the contract in execution segments and schedule them over multiple blocks. Hence my question. If the only thing  that is decidable for any program (you don't control what contract creators put in a contrat) is the fact that the program will stop, this does absolutely nothing to make it anywhere near practical. If the program takes 5 years to stop, we aren't any better off than if it didn't stop at all.

So if I understand correctly, what HMC says above would work only for these contracts that were shipped together with a proof already written explicitely by the contract developer that establishes in polynomial time that the program will stop because the developer went through the deliberate design decision of making his program do everything in small chopped batches with yielding and continuations all over the place. Is that the spirit? And to ensure that every contract on the chain are following this paradigm, the contracts would need to come with the proof for the transaction to be validated and added to the blockchain? And do you also ship a proof that the proof indeed runs in polynomial time? And so on :)?

Any example of a chopped contract?

Assume I write a tau or idris program that halts on the first zero of Riemann's Zeta which is not on the critical line. Of course, no one expect the prover to determine quickly if this program ever halt. If I knew how to do that magic, I'd already take $6M by solving the 6 math open problems of Clay institute :)
That's the point. So Tau will need to rely on a very self-constrained ultra-modular programming paradigm so that it is possible to prove that every chunk of code is both space and time bounded regardless of its input, while making sure that the proof itself doesn't become more complex than the chunk of code it vouches for...

I'm really curious how that will work in practice. A piece of code that demonstrates this would be more than welcome.

So assume I wrote some simpler code with runtime complexity that I know how to compute and prove, then I can specify my proof or parts of it, and let the prover finish the missing details.
Tau, the first Proof-of-PhD smart contract system :)

- Are there archives of IRC discussions / forum discussions / email discussions etc that can help understanding decisions made around the design?
I don't think there's anything one can easily track. ~10MB of text won't help anyone. So for now one can only ask and get answers, and with time we'll document everything.
I don't mind finding my way in a 10MB dump. I don't want to waste your time answering questions if the answers are already there somewhere.

Please let me know if I missed something or if other questions arise.
Proposed that nicely, how can I refuse? Here are a few more questions:
- Do you have specs about what exactly Agora is going to be. I mean other than the story of Bob and Alice  (https://github.com/naturalog/Bitagoras/blob/master/README.md). What kind of assets will Agora allow to trade? Will it features a full fledged distributed exchange like Ripple? Will it support other market paradigms like auctions or prediction markets?
- Have you started working on Agora?
- How long do you estimate you will need to complete Agora?
- Tau ETA?
- Agora ETA?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 30, 2015, 03:08:16 AM
Maybe to phrase what he is asking differently: after various markets are created over Tau (Agoras that will require the Agora coin to use them)-- what stops one to create competing markets, also over tau (parallel to Agoras) with BTC, ETC, or any other crypto tools. Won't these have an advantage over the Agoras market? (an advantage in the sense that they'll utilize other coins without limits).

OR, even if the above is correct, is your intention with the Agoras to enable features that can utilize any coin but that like in ETHEREUM, will require Agoras an an underlying gas/fee/whatever for every transaction while also enabling them as a "classic coin" within that Inner world?

Thanks for the questions,

1. Whatever can be implemented with "old" coins like BTC, will probably be supported on Agoras, of course with limited features.
2. There will be no "gas" or fees for using tau or agoras. Otherwise, someone will create a clone with no fees, as you pointed out. We do try to come up with a design that is hard to compete with, of course, by all means we find.
3. No one essentialy prevents someone from creating Agoras competitor over tau, but it'll be hard to compete with tau's developers, especially in introducing the features we've been thinking on for over a year. No one even came up with a "small and simple" feature of agoras like Zennet. But again I think this points to a kind of risk that exists in any project, and usually doesn't come realistic, yet we do keep that in mind and try to make it more valuable to join us rather compete with us.

Please let me know if this answers.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 30, 2015, 03:08:35 AM
- Do you have a specification (ontology, BNF grammar, spec document...) of the Tau language as it is now and/or as it is supposed to become once all the networking and crypto features are built in?
The syntax of the language itself is not new. The RDF family is basically all syntax-sugaring to NQuads http://www.w3.org/TR/n-quads/ so all RDF languages can be converted to NQuads, while plenty of converters out there. Current tau's code can read NQuads, JSON-LD, and (yet partial) Notation3.
I wasn't asking about RDF triples and NQuads: these are just a representation format. What I am asking is the specification of the Tau language itself. OWL2 for instance is the RDF implementation of a logic language called SROIQ(D) formally specified here (http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/people/ian.horrocks/Publications/download/2006/HoKS06a.pdf) that is a subset of description logic and its derivation as RDF based ontology is specified in great details here (http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-syntax/).
We know from the whitepaper that Tau is borrowing to constructive / intuitionist logic. But is it a subset, a variation, or does it implement the full logic? Is there a whitepaper or document covering the formalism? Is there a document that describes the ontology including the core logic and library of built-ins related properties?

Supporting network features etc. is done via builtins, which is also a common mechanism among RDF reasoners. See for example http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/doc/CwmBuiltins
Is Tau entirely structured around CWM? What about the builtins that are not already implemented by CWM? For instance DHT related features, RNG etc. Will you contribute them to the original CWM? Are you going to fork CWM to extend it? Or does CWM come with a way to register new builtins and if it does is it statical (compile time) or dynamic (runtime)?

- Where can I find a Tau code example that emulates simple procedural behavior like a loop for instance?

Let me use the cwm's builtins I just linked to demonstrate printing numbers from 1 to 10:
1 log:outputString 1.
{ ?x log:outputString ?x. (1 ?x) math:sum ?y. ?y math:lessThan 11 } => { ?y log:outputString ?y }.
see http://pastebin.com/H2gqLUzC
You are using the W3C swap/math and swap/log ontologies.
Are they a subset of the Tau ontology?
Again, that would need to be clarified. What IS valid Tau and what is not?

- How do you plan to make the transition from knowledge (decision of spawning a new socket for instance) to action (making a system call to create a new socket): will each i/o module poll the knowledge base periodically for relevant action? Will you place control points at key steps of the inference process to intercept propositions with a known action semantic and take action?
- Will input from i/o module trigger asynchronous reasonning or will it just add new propositions in the knowledge base for some synchronous process to reason with at next iteration?
At the syntax level, IO is just another builtin predicate, like { ?z a tau:tcpEndpoint } => { ?y tau:tcpConnect ?z }. At the typesystem level, we of course have Effect types/Monads https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(functional_programming)
The reasoning flow does not change at all due to IO (in general), but types originated from IO are tagged as effect types and of course aren't treated as "pure truth". A good reference is how Idris use side effects http://eb.host.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/drafts/eff-tutorial.pdf
If I understand correctly your reply I/O originated events and data are being incorporated as new facts that will be (lazy-)evaluated / stated next time the reasoner does a resolution that needs i/o related facts, which in other words means synchronous i/o. I can see how this is going to add a lot of latency, but let me read that Idris paper first and I'll get back with more questions

- Is the interface between the knowledge base and the system level functionalities already developed or specified? Where can I find further details?
Apologies but I didn't really understand the question.
You gave this example above: "{ ?z a tau:tcpEndpoint } => { ?y tau:tcpConnect ?z }".
Are the built-ins behind tau:tcpEndpoint and tau:tcpConnect already developed or specified in a document?
What will be all the built-ins introduced by Tau?

- How can Tau guarantee that it can determine the upper bound of when a program can halt in less time than it would take to run the program? What if the program is already the shortest possible program to solve the problem it represents? At most I could imagine how code analysis could help determining a big-o estimate of the program complexity but then that won't help much to make sure that the program can run within the time boundaries of a given blockhain block as was suggested in the cointelegraph interview.

This goes right back to decidability, and to the point that one shouldn't expect the autoprover to prove all math by itself instantly.

Let me quote HMC's reply to the question "How does it compare to Ethereum" in the interview on CoinTelegraph (http://cointelegraph.com/news/115118/tau-chain-a-decentralized-app-store-with-greater-flexibility-than-ethereum)
Quote from: HMC
To contrast, Tau is a decidable complete logic, per block, with Turing completeness recovered by the iteration of multiple blocks.  This means that we cannot compute any computable thing in one block, but we can know exactly how much resource expenditure a block will require to verify. We can still compute any computable thing; it may just require structuring the execution to run over the span of multiple blocks.  Because of this, Tau resources do not need to be backed directly by a token, and resource exchange can be negotiated by the users as they see fit.

In the context of the comparition with Ethereum, what I understand HMC to be saying is that the question of the maximum runtime of a contract is decidable which allows to break down the contract in execution segments and schedule them over multiple blocks. Hence my question. If the only thing  that is decidable for any program (you don't control what contract creators put in a contrat) is the fact that the program will stop, this does absolutely nothing to make it anywhere near practical. If the program takes 5 years to stop, we aren't any better off than if it didn't stop at all.

So if I understand correctly, what HMC says above would work only for these contracts that were shipped together with a proof already written explicitely by the contract developer that establishes in polynomial time that the program will stop because the developer went through the deliberate design decision of making his program do everything in small chopped batches with yielding and continuations all over the place. Is that the spirit? And to ensure that every contract on the chain are following this paradigm, the contracts would need to come with the proof for the transaction to be validated and added to the blockchain? And do you also ship a proof that the proof indeed runs in polynomial time? And so on :)?

Any example of a chopped contract?

Assume I write a tau or idris program that halts on the first zero of Riemann's Zeta which is not on the critical line. Of course, no one expect the prover to determine quickly if this program ever halt. If I knew how to do that magic, I'd already take $6M by solving the 6 math open problems of Clay institute :)
That's the point. So Tau will need to rely on a very self-constrained ultra-modular programming paradigm so that it is possible to prove that every chunk of code is both space and time bounded regardless of its input, while making sure that the proof itself doesn't become more complex than the chunk of code it vouches for...

I'm really curious how that will work in practice. A piece of code that demonstrates this would be more than welcome.

So assume I wrote some simpler code with runtime complexity that I know how to compute and prove, then I can specify my proof or parts of it, and let the prover finish the missing details.
Tau, the first Proof-of-PhD smart contract system :)

- Are there archives of IRC discussions / forum discussions / email discussions etc that can help understanding decisions made around the design?
I don't think there's anything one can easily track. ~10MB of text won't help anyone. So for now one can only ask and get answers, and with time we'll document everything.
I don't mind finding my way in a 10MB dump. I don't want to waste your time answering questions if the answers are already there somewhere.

Please let me know if I missed something or if other questions arise.
Proposed that nicely, how can I refuse? Here are a few more questions:
- Do you have specs about what exactly Agora is going to be. I mean other than the story of Bob and Alice  (https://github.com/naturalog/Bitagoras/blob/master/README.md). What kind of assets will Agora allow to trade? Will it features a full fledged distributed exchange like Ripple? Will it support other market paradigms like auctions or prediction markets?
- Have you started working on Agora?
- How long do you estimate you will need to complete Agora?
- Tau ETA?
- Agora ETA?

Thanks for your questions, they raise important clarifications:

1. The OWL family is indeed a widely used ontology and known to suffer from logical complexities. Our goal is to implement RDFS (which is a relatively low level at this scope), and above it implement our type system (which probably amounts to adding predicates part-of and is-type-of, a good ref is ceur-ws.org/Vol-354/p63.pdf), and to recover OWL2 over those primitives.
I do not claim that any OWL ontology would be interpreted on tau just as any other OWL reasoner, and I do not promise any "easy migration" of existing code, as long as it is beyond just facts (i.e. without vars or rules).
So what I can tell now about tau's lang is:
a. Syntax is RDF family.
b. RDFS builtins will be supported as-is.
c. OWL will be supported as well but might not keep its common semantics' subtelties, as they change from reasoner to reasoner.
d. The rdf:Type predicate will be interpreted in a Martin-Lof dependent-type framework, as well as typechecking.
e. The language will also have Auth types for proof of execution (as in lambda-auth) and Effect types for IO.
f. The reasoner will be shipped with some builtins, this touches your next question and I'll emphasize on this in a moment.


2. The logic itself can describe everything that is computable. In other words, "all math that matters". It is so strong that it is considered as a new foundation of mathematics in general, see for example HoTT (Homotopy Type Theory). A great feature in Martin-Lof type theory is that you cannot even express a contradiction (like you can't even express Russel's paradox), therefore you never inconsistent.

3. Tau is not structured upon CWM at all. We do use Euler and Yieldprolog as references for inference and Idris/Agda as reference for typesystem, but not CWM. Moreover, I'm not aware of open-source stand-alone performance-oriented C++ reasoners out there that support N3Logic. We write everything from scratch, and in fact we already finished writing the part convering reasoning over triples. From here (except some more parsing features) is it all only features that RDF reasoners haven't met yet, at least not directly (like euler.yap jitting indirectly over swipl), to my knowledge.

4. What is valid Tau and what not is still early to answer. We will have to finish developing the language before we can say firmly "this is it".

5. To write "good" tau code one would definitely have to give a very good thinking, like any other construction. I do not claim that every first grader would write decentralized application over tau in natural language. But tau lets you focus on the logic and meaning of what you say, and help you express things unambiguously. Even if this will turn down to be more complex than say Python (which is of course a matter of taste), there are two important point to take into account:

a. Tau can have more frontends. The "real" interface is nothing but quads. Any sugaring over them can be de-sugared and fed to tau.
b. The more important point is code reuse, and to picture how programming would actually take place over tau. Say you want to write some complex program, and begin to break it up to functions and structures. Say for example that one required structure is red-black tree and one required function is balancing the tree. What you'd do nowadays is not reinvent the wheel but google this and find some code snippets for reuse. Those snippets may or may not fit your needs, and you still have to adapt them (if not reimplement them) to fit your code.
On the other hand, given tau, you can formalize only the requirements from the structure and the functions, and from here you have three options: either that code already exists in tau's records (might even be that your formal reqs themselves already exist) and you can find code that provably meet your needs, or, you can offer a reward to anyone that provable meets your requirements, or, you can write the code yourself, but this time the reasoner can give you a great help since it can prove you're correct or wrong in many cases. At the end, you end up with code that you can trust even more than after QA, since you have a mathematical proof that it meets its requirements.

6. It is worth mentioning that we intent to postpone to post-genesis everything that can be postponed to post-genesis. The a-f points I mentioned above are essential at-genesis, together with more features of course. Even the JIT is needed in order to specify the order of execution (possibly to future compilers) so client will be able to agree upon proof of execution. At this theme, all we do is give a reference, usable, and good enough client. Of course other implementations of the tau protocol are possible, just like there are many different bitcoin clients.
This might also shed some light on the common wondering "it must take years to build that monster". We indeed tend to pick the shortest path, and we believe it is shorter than estimated at first sight.

7. The IRC channel has become "home" for several friends and contain many personal and off-topic conversations. This is why I never published the logs in public. Nevertheless, you can simply join the channel and see right there how to get the logs right away.

8. I don't have specs for tau or agoras more than already published. Things are fluid during dev, ofc, and we better finish the client before we can give exact directions how to use it or what would be the features. Pretty much the same for ETA. I can throw numbers into air while apriori every number would be wrong. I can tell that 6 months till tau's genesis sounds horribly pessimistic for me, and another 6m months for agoras sounds strongly pessimistic. Sorry for being vague, but think of it for a second, and see that any other answer of mine would be a lie, and all I can do is give you the most truthful answers I have myself.

9. Have a look at http://www.cs.ru.nl/~freek/100 of course the syntax is terrible, and this, too, is why we build tau (HMC: apologies for using your catchphrase).

10. " If the only thing  that is decidable for any program (you don't control what contract creators put in a contrat) is the fact that the program will stop, this does absolutely nothing to make it anywhere near practical. If the program takes 5 years to stop, we aren't any better off than if it didn't stop at all." -- No, *everything* that can be expressed on the language is decidable! You can prove *all* *correct* theorems, and you can't even express their negation (i.e. expressing a contradiction).

I have to go now and I might add some more later. Will be happy to come back and see more questions :)


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on August 30, 2015, 05:49:32 AM
Thanks for the answers and pointers.

From a stylistic perspective however I think the cross-sectional style in which you answer doesn't help clarity as there are bits of answers to every questions laid out in a completly different flow. Although this may seem to make more sense to you given that you have more perspective on how things fit together, people who are less familiar with the subject will have difficulties understanding how your answers address the questions. The numbering you introduce doesn't help since it doesn't map to anything in the set of questions.

Another problem of answering cross-sectionnally is that it lets a lot of stuff unanswered. For instance here you haven't replied about:
- the Tau specific builtins that you have already developed and/or specified.
- the discussion about HMC's quote and the way computation is meant to be broken down in code segments which time and space complexity is bounded and known (see the question again for the details) and the way continuation will be handled between these segments.
- how / whether you will have to prove that the proof itself can be verified in polynomial time and how to avoid this requirement leading to an infinite recursion of proofs.

Let's try to stick to the conventional quote-and-answer style going forward. Thanks.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 30, 2015, 06:15:16 AM
Thanks for the answers and pointers.

From a stylistic perspective however I think the cross-sectional style in which you answer doesn't help clarity as there are bits of answers to every questions laid out in a completly different flow. Although this may seem to make more sense to you given that you have more perspective on how things fit together, people who are less familiar with the subject will have difficulties understanding how your answers address the questions. The numbering you introduce doesn't help since it doesn't map to anything in the set of questions.

Well sometimes like in this case I feel a need to step back and give more bg info. The numbering has nothing to do with the order of the questions.

Another problem of answering cross-sectionnally is that it lets a lot of stuff unanswered. For instance here you haven't replied about:
- the Tau specific builtins that you have already developed and/or specified.
- the discussion about HMC's quote and the way computation is meant to be broken down in code segments which time and space complexity is bounded and known (see the question again for the details) and the way continuation will be handled between these segments.
- the question of how / whether you will have to prove that the proof itself can be verified in polynomial time and how to avoid this requirement leading to an infinite recursion of proofs.

Let's try to stick to the conventional quote-and-answer style going forward. Thanks.

Indeed I missed a few clarifications and will do it right now:

Builtins: it is important to bear in mind two things:
1. Buitins aren't really needed except for IO. Everything else can be described by the logic itself.
2. Builtins should be quite minimal. The rationale is that a client will have to be able to replay the chain from genesis, so the root chain must contain code that the clients support.
That said, we will ship tau with some basic builtins (let along DHT and chain), like basic math, logic and string operations, as common in reasoners. The currently supported "small types" (which are again just for convenience like builtins) are XML types: XSD_INTEGER, XSD_STRING etc. So tau will have builtins to support basic operations on such.

Computation on chain: What HMC mentioned is with respect to computation that is being done on the chain only, like a computation that is shared by everyone trustlessly. Application that runs locally and uses the chain only for certain operations (like a btc wallet) simply runs on the local machine and does not need to wait for the next block in order to continue local execution.
Recovering Turing completeness at this scope relies on the notion that Turing completeness can be recovered from tfpl by successive calls to it. Therefore, over time, computation on chain also becomes Turing complete.

Verification time: Neither the reasoner nor the verifier can ever get into infinite loop (due to Euler path detection). The proof can be verified very quickly since it is written as a list of terms derived from each other, while annotating the rule and the substitution that yielded this derivation. Therefore it is simply linear.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on August 30, 2015, 07:09:53 AM
Well sometimes like in this case I feel a need to step back and give more bg info. The numbering has nothing to do with the order of the questions.
Giving an integrated view is useful and provides some perspetive, but only if the rest is clear enough to start with and allows people to step back and contemplate the whole thing. For this reason I'd like to keep high level answers separated from answering specific questions. Although this will introduce a bit of redundance, can we try to do go with that flow:
- answer questions in quote-and-answer style
- provide some perspective after the questions when applicable

Putting some more structure on this thread is going to cost you a bit of time now, but it's a worthwhile investment as this will allow potential contributors to jump in not to mention that many investors are probably waiting on the sideline until they get some kind of understanding of what Tau is really about. Even for those potential investors who won't understand the details, it still helps to sense that there is a wider understanding in the community and a growing consensus that Tau is achievable and standing on a sound theorical base.

Beside, when the time comes to write some documentation, you'll have some content ready to copy-paste in this thread.

1. Buitins aren't really needed except for IO. Everything else can be described by the logic itself.
This really depends on which context you place yourself in. The logic itself is only concerned with describing and inferring relations between symbols in a mechanical, provable and objective way. It's entirely disconnected from the world. To be able to use the logic process actual knowledge about the world you need to add semantics to non-logical symbols via an interpretation. For that purpose, defining precisely the vocabulary and ontologies is of upmost importance for everyone interested in making any practical real-world use of Tau even if this has no bearing on the way the Tau is going to work on a logical level. Sensors and effector built-ins are even more important because they are connecting the logic to the state of the world and allowing it to query or affect that state.

You could complete the core of Tau without ever worrying about the way it's going to interface with the world, but then what you are going to release is an autistic sollipsistic reasoner that has no practical use other than making and verifying constructive proofs. We all know that's not the plan so you will have to specify, develop and document a standard library for Tau that will allow it to interract with the world in a way that is well enough standardized to allow consensus on its semantics and effects. Until this is done you will have 0% adoption because Tau will be essentially useless. You could wait longer to start worrying about that but then you lose a lot of benefits such as showing real world examples of what Tau can do, and having contributors help you with developing that layer.

2. Builtins should be quite minimal. The rationale is that a client will have to be able to replay the chain from genesis, so the root chain must contain code that the clients support.
I second that. Built-ins are the weak point in the system because they need to run as native code (as opposed to Tau logic) that can't be formally tested by the logic. The more builtins there are the more attack surface there is to introduce backdoors and/or find zero-day exploits. Built-ins should also be entirely orthogonal, meaning that there should be one and only one way do something and everybody should be using that way. Everything else should be done in Tau. Actually, if you have a good JIT system that allows to run Tau code at a decend performance level, I would even advise against using built-ins for the DHT. Basic network and cryptographic built-ins are sufficient to restore the full DHT functionnality intrinsically. Whenever a built-in is needed for performance, what you could do is let people decide in the bootstrap file if they want to use the native built-ins or the pure logic version. You could also test the native built-ins using a Tau-level model. After sufficient unit test runs against the boundary and median values of the input parametes range of definition as well as randomized tests, one could decide (in the "belief" sense) with enough confidence that  the native built-in and the pure logic are indeed equivalent. That would allow to even reimplement as native code pieces of logic with no side-effect but a pretty heavy computational profile (cryptographic operations come to mind).

Computation on chain: What HMC mentioned is with respect to computation that is being done on the chain only, like a computation that is shared by everyone trustlessly. Application that runs locally and uses the chain only for certain operations (like a btc wallet) simply runs on the local machine and does not need to wait for the next block in order to continue local execution.
Recovering Turing completeness at this scope relies on the notion that Turing completeness can be recovered from tfpl by successive calls to it. Therefore, over time, computation on chain also becomes Turing complete.
This was implied in the question. The context of the question, the whole article, and HMC's answer assume that a blockchain that supports pseudo-turing-complete contracts has been implemented over Tau and we are discussing how contracts that in Ethereum would need to be preempted by the miner upon exhausting their resources could be made (or proven) to yield by themselves in Tau and resume on next block. So the question is how do you do that. Actually the question is more complex than that, so the best would be to quote it and start explaining from there.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 30, 2015, 07:41:31 AM
1. Buitins aren't really needed except for IO. Everything else can be described by the logic itself.
This really depends on which context you place yourself in. The logic itself is only concerned with describing and inferring relations between symbols in a mechanical, provable and objective way. It's entirely disconnected from the world. To be able to use the logic process actual knowledge about the world you need to add semantics to non-logical symbols via an interpretation. For that purpose, defining precisely the vocabulary and ontologies is of upmost importance for everyone interested in making any practical real-world use of Tau even if this has no bearing on the way the Tau is going to work on a logical level. Sensors and effector built-ins are even more important because they are connecting the logic to the state of the world and allowing it to query or affect that state.

Let me give an example for what I meant. Roughly speaking, one can think of two ways to process integers: by using the CPU's built-in instructions, or to introduce number theory and let the calculations follow from the rules. The latter method sounds insane, but some things really work like that in real life, for example https://github.com/idris-lang/Idris-dev/blob/master/libs/prelude/Prelude/Nat.idr
So, builtins come to give the former option. You don't must do simply math or string operations in logic unless you need to. You can add integers using the builtin math:add, for example.
Effects, on the other hand, definitely have to have well defined builtins and policies, and cannot be implemented as part of the pure reasoning process.

You could complete the core of Tau without ever worrying about the way it's going to interface with the world, but then what you are going to release is an autistic sollipsistic reasoner that has no practical use other than making and verifying constructive proofs.

I cannot postpone Effects for later. Maybe for tau as a stand-alone cool toy, but not the Tau Chain: the client has be shipped with the genesis hard-coded (as in BTC) and to be able to bootstrap from there into downloading and executing all blocks.

We all know that's not the plan so you will have to specify, develop and document a standard library for Tau that will allow it to interract with the world in a way that is well enough standardized to allow consensus on its semantics and effects. Until this is done you will have 0% adoption because Tau will be essentially useless. You could wait longer to start worrying about that but then you lose a lot of benefits such as showing real world examples of what Tau can do, and having contributors help you with developing that layer.

Indeed I put strong emphasis on the points you mentioned, and maybe this is part of the reason I cannot give the final answers yet.

2. Builtins should be quite minimal. The rationale is that a client will have to be able to replay the chain from genesis, so the root chain must contain code that the clients support.
I second that. Built-ins are the weak point in the system because they need to run as native code (as opposed to Tau logic) that can't be formally tested by the logic. The more builtins there are the more attack surface there is to introduce backdoors and/or find zero-day exploits. Built-ins should also be entirely orthogonal, meaning that there should be one and only one way do something and everybody should be using that way. Everything else should be done in Tau. Actually, if you have a good JIT system that allows to run Tau code at a decend performance level, I would even advise against using built-ins for the DHT. Basic network and cryptographic built-ins are sufficient to restore the full DHT functionnality intrinsically. Whenever a built-in is needed for performance, what you could do is let people decide in the bootstrap file if they want to use the native built-ins or the pure logic version. You could also test the native built-ins using a Tau-level model. After sufficient unit test runs against the boundary and median values of the input parametes range of definition as well as randomized tests, one could decide (in the "belief" sense) with enough confidence that  the native built-in and the pure logic are indeed equivalent. That would allow to even reimplement as native code pieces of logic with no side-effect but a pretty heavy computational profile (cryptographic operations come to mind).

Computation on chain: What HMC mentioned is with respect to computation that is being done on the chain only, like a computation that is shared by everyone trustlessly. Application that runs locally and uses the chain only for certain operations (like a btc wallet) simply runs on the local machine and does not need to wait for the next block in order to continue local execution.
Recovering Turing completeness at this scope relies on the notion that Turing completeness can be recovered from tfpl by successive calls to it. Therefore, over time, computation on chain also becomes Turing complete.
This was implied in the question. The context of the question, the whole article, and HMC's answer assume that a blockchain that supports pseudo-turing-complete contracts has been implemented over Tau and we are discussing how contracts that in Ethereum would need to be preempted by the miner upon exhausting their resources could be made (or proven) to yield by themselves in Tau and resume on next block. So the question is how do you do that. Actually the question is more complex than that, so the best would be to quote it and start explaining from there.

Quote
In the context of the comparition with Ethereum, what I understand HMC to be saying is that the question of the maximum runtime of a contract is decidable which allows to break down the contract in execution segments and schedule them over multiple blocks.

Correct.

Quote
Hence my question. If the only thing  that is decidable for any program (you don't control what contract creators put in a contrat) is the fact that the program will stop, this does absolutely nothing to make it anywhere near practical. If the program takes 5 years to stop, we aren't any better off than if it didn't stop at all.

Everything (once expressed in MLTT) is decidable, not only halting but all statements, including the exact runtime complexity. And of course you do control what the contract creators put in the contract: its code is open and you can query the reasoner for any question you have regarding it. If the reasoner doesn't answer instantly, you may ignore the contract. Conversly, the contract creators can supply a proof for "interesting" assertions.

Quote
So if I understand correctly, what HMC says above would work only for these contracts that were shipped together with a proof already written explicitely by the contract developer that establishes in polynomial time that the program will stop because the developer went through the deliberate design decision of making his program do everything in small chopped batches with yielding and continuations all over the place. Is that the spirit? And to ensure that every contract on the chain are following this paradigm, the contracts would need to come with the proof for the transaction to be validated and added to the blockchain? And do you also ship a proof that the proof indeed runs in polynomial time? And so on Smiley?

The time takes to verify the proof is given by the size of the proof (since it's linear), so it is easy to predict that complexity. Some verifications are even logarithmic at the proof size, like in amiller's merkle tree.
The questions of whether to require a proof with every contract, or in which cases to require that, or proof for what exactly, or what is the maximum length allowed and so on, this is almost-all context (app) dependent. I say "almost" because such considerations exist also on the root chain, but this again goes back to tau's users. Those are the rules of the network which we do not set, but the users set. We tend to be as minimalistic as possible on influencing the root's rules. On genesis, tau will indeed be usable only for fans/geeks/evangalists/techies and so on. The first users will shape the root chain, specifically: the rules of rulemaking of rulemaking (the rules of creating contexts or changing the root chain). At mentioned several times, tau can be equivalently described as a decentralized Nomic game. I think that it is more reasonable than developers hard-coding some necessarily-arbitrary rules. What do you think?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Tobo on August 30, 2015, 03:12:01 PM
What kind consensus mechanism will be used for the Tau-chain?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 30, 2015, 04:06:43 PM
What kind consensus mechanism will be used for the Tau-chain?

It is for the users to decide. See last paragraph in my last comment, and I've just had a discussion about it here https://www.facebook.com/groups/870781236307340/permalink/994080593977403/


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 30, 2015, 04:56:04 PM
Now we have a reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/tauchain/


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on August 30, 2015, 05:52:08 PM
It is for the users to decide. See last paragraph in my last comment, and I've just had a discussion about it here https://www.facebook.com/groups/870781236307340/permalink/994080593977403/
Facebook? Seriously!? Please don't ask us to partake in this masquerade. Facebook is the complete opposite of everything that most people in the crypto, FOSS and hacking scenes stand for, and the first thing I hope Tau will help us get rid of for the sake of the collective mental health of our society.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 30, 2015, 05:55:07 PM
It is for the users to decide. See last paragraph in my last comment, and I've just had a discussion about it here https://www.facebook.com/groups/870781236307340/permalink/994080593977403/
Facebook? Seriously!? Please don't ask us to partake in this masquerade. Facebook is the complete opposite of everything that most people in the crypto, FOSS and hacking scenes stand for, and the first thing I hope Tau will help us get rid of for the sake of the collective mental health of our society.

indeed tau is the opposite and comes to replace those systems, but, masquerade??


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on August 30, 2015, 06:18:36 PM
A metaphore for all the posing, pretending, attention seeking, courting and other superficial and emotionally immature behaviors that this plateform encourages.

Can you please cross post here or on Reddit the discussion about the Nomic game so that the more privacy inclined among us can participate?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on August 30, 2015, 06:21:15 PM
A metaphore for all the posing, pretending, attention seeking, courting and other superficial and emotionally immature behaviors that this plateform encourages.

Can you please cross post here or on Reddit the discussion about the Nomic game so that the more privacy inclined among us can participate?


Ron revived a very old fb group about tau, and I thank him for that. It doesn't mean it's going to be the main location of the happening. The main locations are still BTT, idni.org, github and IRC.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on September 01, 2015, 06:24:29 AM
New blog post: http://www.idni.org/blog/decentralized-democracy


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on September 01, 2015, 07:51:47 AM
Thanks for the replies Ohad.
One earlier question left unanswered

Do you have specs about what exactly Agora is going to be. I mean other than the story of Bob and Alice  (https://github.com/naturalog/Bitagoras/blob/master/README.md). What kind of assets will Agora allow to trade? Will it feature a full fledged distributed exchange like Ripple? Will it support other market paradigms like auctions or prediction markets?

One more question: there are many references to "chains" in your answers, blog posts and papers.
- There was the blockchain planned for Zennet which was supposed to be used for handling the transactions in Zencoins, was supposed to use PoW, and wasn't supposed to have any inflation, which meant that miners would be rewarded with transaction fees alone.
- In the context of Agora, since Agora is a superset of Zennet, I assume that the originally planned blockchain comes along except that instead of being implemented as a native client, it will be emulated using Tau logic and network built-ins, and now the tokens are called Agora coins, everything else being the same (is that right?). But is it still PoW? If it is do you plan to have Tau open a server socket and let good old mining programs connect to it and do getWork calls?
- In the whitepaper about Tau, you discuss briefly using the block index of a PoW blockchain to serve as the arrow of time. This is a powerful idea but it raises the question of how fundamental the blockchain is to the design. Would you use a blockchain that is implemented independently to Tau as the blueprint for time, and allow Tau logic to query time using a hardcoded built-in? Or would you let the Tau programs query other Tau programs that implement a blockchain node and use whatever they say is the latest index as a time reference? The former would be a more global, reliable and trustable reference but would also add complexity to the base Tau framework and raise the question of how to incentivize the miners of the fundamental chain.
- In your latest block post as well as many of your answers, you seem to be saying that some of the Tau logic will be somewhat stored and exchanged over a blockchain which will allow nodes to share and publish knowledge. So would that chain be a native chain (not implemented in Tau logic but C++ for instance) or are we talking about a chain that would be created in the Tau bootstrapping file? Is this chain related to Agora or not? Does this chain have economic incentives? If it does what is it? If not how do you ensure that the chain remains consistent?
- Last but not least you make the parallel in your last blog article between chains and contexts. For example you talk about a "main chain" to refer to some sort of default context. Is the "chain" term in that article still referring to the "chain" in blockchain or is "chain" a linked-list of context elements multiplexed in physical blocks of a real blockchain?

I could go on, but the main point here is that it's not at all clear (not to me at least) at which level(s) you are planning to introduce blockchains, what it/they will be used for at each specific level, what type of incentive scheme will be introduced to keep these structures consistent accross the network, and how that relates to Tau and/or Agora?

I would appreciate if you can address the points above one by one in your answer.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on September 01, 2015, 10:11:00 AM
Thanks for the replies Ohad.
One earlier question left unanswered

Do you have specs about what exactly Agora is going to be. I mean other than the story of Bob and Alice  (https://github.com/naturalog/Bitagoras/blob/master/README.md). What kind of assets will Agora allow to trade? Will it feature a full fledged distributed exchange like Ripple? Will it support other market paradigms like auctions or prediction markets?
One more question: there are many references to "chains" in your answers, blog posts and papers.
- There was the blockchain planned for Zennet which was supposed to be used for handling the transactions in Zencoins, was supposed to use PoW, and wasn't supposed to have any inflation, which meant that miners would be rewarded with transaction fees alone.
- In the context of Agora, since Agora is a superset of Zennet, I assume that the originally planned blockchain comes along except that instead of being implemented as a native client, it will be emulated using Tau logic and network built-ins, and now the tokens are called Agora coins, everything else being the same (is that right?). But is it still PoW? If it is do you plan to have Tau open a server socket and let good old mining programs connect to it and do getWork calls?

The workflow of the client can be summarizes as follows:
We have a peer to peer network such that every peer holds an ontology (its rules). Peers speak between themselves at the same language too - they query each other's reasoners, though indirectly. A wrapper around the reasoner recieve the event and query the reasoner "what should I do now", together with the event's information.
Therefore, one can quite naturally add rules to what happens when some query arrives, even locally. The rules doesn't necessarily have to be explicit, as their consequences are calculated by the reasoner.
The query itself can be a computation, some code to run, and even native code: I forgot to mention that we do plan to have FFI builtins. Of course, one has to allow using them, and the typesystem should handle them correctly like such types cannot be Auth types (execution verification).
What to do when a query to run code, how much to charge, under what conditions, all amounts to local rules in the client. Therefore, Zennet's design completely lost meaning, except the pricing formula zennet.sc/zennetpricing.pdf since it all amounts to little piece of tau code. Renting computational power won't need a distinct chain or a side chain, but only the coin it uses has to have it's timestamped ledger. Other data transfer can be done using the DHT layer, or by any other p2p rules.

The builtins will have multiple levels of abstraction. DHT (like get/set) and blockchain primitives (like getWork) will be builtins as for themselves, aside more low level ones like sockets.

Back to what assets Agoras will allow trading, I tend to adhere the principle of letting the users maximum flexibility and minimum intervention. So the goal to implement a stable coin, and a market where participants may place their bids, whether it is computational power or coding or anything, and with a user interface. Readily-made rulesets for common such operations will also be supplied. In addition, there are more applications that need a currency other than markets. The one I'm planning to put focus on under Agoras is a search engine. Remember that with large enough network, tau can crawl the web overnight. And after that night you don't end up with a one line interface tht google gives you, but the whole database is open. Of course computational costs has to be taken care carefully, so we plan to make the search engine self-incentivizing. In general, we'll do our best to make Agoras the best choice as a platform for any application that involves currency.

- In the whitepaper about Tau, you discuss briefly using the block index of a PoW blockchain to serve as the arrow of time. This is a powerful idea but it raises the question of how fundamental the blockchain is to the design. Would you use a blockchain that is implemented independently to Tau as the blueprint for time, and allow Tau logic to query time using a hardcoded built-in?

Yes, but the ontologies will have rich API to the DHT&Chain parameters, and can have a wide control on their flow. A simple example is the conditions for a block to be accepted. Chain builtins will also supply primitives of "before" and "after" that can be Auth types yet external, thanks to the chain's timestamping.

[/quote]
Or would you let the Tau programs query other Tau programs that implement a blockchain node and use whatever they say is the latest index as a time reference? The former would be a more global, reliable and trustable reference but would also add complexity to the base Tau framework and raise the question of how to incentivize the miners of the fundamental chain.

Not exactly, and as above, ontologies will control the chain only up to some extent, but the general flow of DHT&Chain is somehow hard coded.

- In your latest block post as well as many of your answers, you seem to be saying that some of the Tau logic will be somewhat stored and exchanged over a blockchain which will allow nodes to share and publish knowledge. So would that chain be a native chain (not implemented in Tau logic but C++ for instance) or are we talking about a chain that would be created in the Tau bootstrapping file? Is this chain related to Agora or not? Does this chain have economic incentives? If it does what is it? If not how do you ensure that the chain remains consistent?

Information is not stored on the chain - it is stored on the DHT layer, and in case a timestamp is needed, only a merkle root is enough to get into the chain. The root chain has to contain the protocol's definitions (the client's code) and merkle roots for timestamping.
In any case, we always speak about one chain only, and more chains only arise at the scope of pegging them in the root chain, as sidechains do.

- Last but not least you make the parallel in your last blog article between chains and contexts. For example you talk about a "main chain" to refer to some sort of default context. Is the "chain" term in that article still referring to the "chain" in blockchain or is "chain" a linked-list of context elements multiplexed in physical blocks of a real blockchain?

When I say 'chain' on our scope I always mean 'blockchain'.

I could go on, but the main point here is that it's not at all clear (not to me at least) at which level(s) you are planning to introduce blockchains, what it/they will be used for at each specific level, what type of incentive scheme will be introduced to keep these structures consistent accross the network, and how that relates to Tau and/or Agora?

An incentive scheme is indeed an extremely important (if not vital) to the future of the network. Still, the first users have to define it, or better, define how it can be changed. I do have thoughts and opinions about that, and I will vote and propose accordingly over the system.

Thanks for the good questions, will be happy for more.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: skunk on September 01, 2015, 10:48:33 AM
New blog post: http://www.idni.org/blog/decentralized-democracy
intersting... do you know bitnation (http://www.bitnation.co/)? maybe the two project can join each other...


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: redfish64 on September 02, 2015, 02:46:13 AM
I was wondering if anyone could recommend some reading material, or at least a general direction of what to study to help grasp the concepts of Tau better for those with primarily an imperative programming background (C++, Java, perl, etc.).

I've worked through some of "The Reasoned Schemer", and right now I'm learning Haskell, and planning on moving onto Idris once I get the basics down.

Does this seem like a good path? Other material?





Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on September 02, 2015, 02:52:35 AM
I was wondering if anyone could recommend some reading material, or at least a general direction of what to study to help grasp the concepts of Tau better for those with primarily an imperative programming background (C++, Java, perl, etc.).

I've worked through some of "The Reasoned Schemer", and right now I'm learning Haskell, and planning on moving onto Idris once I get the basics down.

Does this seem like a good path? Other material?

I'd say you follow a very good path. Tau is very different from Haskell, but one better know Haskell in order to understand many of the type theory literature. Idris is the ultimate entrance to the world of dependent types, and borrowed syntax from Haskell. Tau aims to be like Idris, just with RDF syntax, and some DHT and chain primitives etc.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on September 06, 2015, 07:13:44 AM
Found that on the Ethereum reddit: Compositional financial contracts (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIYZJgoAZH4)
Financial contracts language written as a DSL over Coq allowing to express any finite-time financial contract in existence, reason with their logic and compose them with logic connectives to express entire financial portfolios in a structured way that can be reasoned with. This is very interesting because it allows for instance to assert delta neutrality of a portfolio in a provable way, or automatically propose optimal hedging scheme given specific expected market conditions (which could themselves be statistically extrapolated from history) and desired outcomes under these conditions .

That kind of formalism would have allowed to anticipate and perhaps prevent the multiple meltdowns of the financial industry. After the financial crisis, regulators have reviewed financial institutions portfolio and painstakingly benchmarked them against different scenarii. This took them years and enormous resources, and yet there is no way to prove that they did the job right and didn't overlook something. The results they got was obsolete on the very moment they produced it because portfolio are constantly in motion so knowing that the institution was sound at the time they snapshoted its portfolio does lnothing to prove it is still sound a couple of days later when all that is needed for a spectacular blow-up is a large naked future position.

With a language like the one proposed above, every financial institution could model their entire portfolio including proprietary one as well as the portfolio they manage for their clients and let the SEC access to it. With that, it would be a breeze for the SEC to test financial institutions soundness and proper capitalization and assert they are not playing against their customers. To do an industry wide benchmark all the SEC would need to do is to compose all the portfolios of all the financial institutions and test that syntectic portfolio against a given set of stress constraints to see where the industry as a whole would be heading in extreme market conditions. Actually, someone asks in the Q&A at the end how this relates to SEC's recent effort to try to model contracts as a DSL over Python and the answer pretty much nails it: Python isn't decidable so the SEC is barking up the wrong tree.

This really sounds like the archetypal case of a Tau chain application and a very simple one at it yet an application with far reaching consequences. Someone with a shared background and a good sense of pitch (HMC maybe?) should contact them and explain them why they should have a look at Tau.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on September 06, 2015, 07:40:39 AM
Proof of Code Execution: http://www.idni.org/blog/proof-of-exec

klosure: thanks, I'll take a look.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: redfish64 on September 07, 2015, 10:28:25 AM
Proof of Code Execution: http[Suspicious link removed]c

This looks interesting, and I think I've learned enough about logic programming to understand it. Just one question, though... (from the blog post)

Quote
Eventually, the hash of the tree's root is a proof that the whole computation was followed, since one can replay the computation and verify the hash.

You cannot be sure the computation wasn't run within some sort of sandbox environment meant to look like the real thing, correct? In fact, in order to verify the proof, you'd have to create such a sandbox to replay it. So, what is the purpose of using this?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on September 07, 2015, 10:49:36 AM
Proof of Code Execution: http[Suspicious link removed]c

This looks interesting, and I think I've learned enough about logic programming to understand it. Just one question, though... (from the blog post)

Quote
Eventually, the hash of the tree's root is a proof that the whole computation was followed, since one can replay the computation and verify the hash.

You cannot be sure the computation wasn't run within some sort of sandbox environment meant to look like the real thing, correct? In fact, in order to verify the proof, you'd have to create such a sandbox to replay it. So, what is the purpose of using this?


Lambda-auth (links below) suggests a framework such that every type can be auth or unauth. We plan to have the same design and distinction on our typesystem. The point is that you don't have to have all your program authed, but you can specify any "key points" to be authed. Naturally indeed one doesn't care about the whole execution of the program but only certain parts of it. An example would be random number generation. Assume one doesn't really care about the functionality of some website because it's all pretty much transparent, except maybe random number generation. So that certain procedure may be authed. Given that, we can collaboratively trust a single point to draw random values that may affect all of us.
Another example would be executing a statement query from some online bank. The bank can auth that query and supply a proof that your reported balance is correct.
Blockchain builtins provide auth types for time ordering, and this is of course a very powerful combination.

http://amiller.github.io/lambda-auth/
http://www.cs.umd.edu/~amiller/gpads/gpads-full.pdf


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: redfish64 on September 07, 2015, 12:53:10 PM
Proof of Code Execution: http[Suspicious link removed]c

This looks interesting, and I think I've learned enough about logic programming to understand it. Just one question, though... (from the blog post)

Quote
Eventually, the hash of the tree's root is a proof that the whole computation was followed, since one can replay the computation and verify the hash.

You cannot be sure the computation wasn't run within some sort of sandbox environment meant to look like the real thing, correct? In fact, in order to verify the proof, you'd have to create such a sandbox to replay it. So, what is the purpose of using this?


Lambda-auth (links below) suggests a framework such that every type can be auth or unauth. We plan to have the same design and distinction on our typesystem. The point is that you don't have to have all your program authed, but you can specify any "key points" to be authed. Naturally indeed one doesn't care about the whole execution of the program but only certain parts of it. An example would be random number generation. Assume one doesn't really care about the functionality of some website because it's all pretty much transparent, except maybe random number generation. So that certain procedure may be authed. Given that, we can collaboratively trust a single point to draw random values that may affect all of us.
Another example would be executing a statement query from some online bank. The bank can auth that query and supply a proof that your reported balance is correct.
Blockchain builtins provide auth types for time ordering, and this is of course a very powerful combination.

http://amiller.github.io/lambda-auth/
http://www.cs.umd.edu/~amiller/gpads/gpads-full.pdf


Ok, I think I get it now. For lack of better terms, let call the party who wants an operation performed by an untrusted other party the "client", and the other party the "server".

The lambda-auth stuff basically allows the client to hold a small hash corresponding to a chunk of data (probably a huge set) that the server holds, and then the server is be able to prove that the operation occurred by looking at the updated hash. In the online bank case, it could be the ledger of the bank including withdrawals and deposit transaction signatures. For the casino, I suppose this could be a record of the executions of their "games" tied to actual payouts in an online currency in Tau.

So, if I got this right, I'm imagine that a server could prove to any party that it has upheld its obligations as follows:

1. The server publishes the latest signed lamba-auth hash of its data (which would be its entire ledger, etc.) into a timestamped format somewhat like a block chain.
2. For every incoming client request, both the client and the server sign the client's request which both the client and the server keep as a receipt.
3. Then, for discrepancies, either there can be either:
 a. An additional transaction against the client account that the client claims they did not make. If so, if the server can supply the receipt signed by the client, and point to the relevant change in its published blockchain, then it can prove that it was in fact authorized by the client. Otherwise, by absence it would show the server cheated.
 b. A transaction the client claimed was supposed to be run, was not. If the client can show the transaction receipt (that is also signed by the server), and then point to the relevant place in the lamba-auth hash in the server's blockchain and show the transaction doesn't exist, then the client can prove the server cheated. Otherwise, the server's lamba-auth blockchain proves that it did run the transaction.

If that is correct, then this can be simplified by just using the Tau blockchain in place of an individual, per party blockchain for step 1. And then compliance could be automatically enforced by making a rule within the Tau blockchain, that any party that could be proved to have cheated to have their funds frozen, or some other punishment, until the problem is fixed.

Is this about right? Is there any other functionality that I'm missing here?

BTW, I'm becoming more and more impressed with Tau the more I learn about it.



Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on September 07, 2015, 01:33:10 PM
Ok, I think I get it now. For lack of better terms, let call the party who wants an operation performed by an untrusted other party the "client", and the other party the "server".

The lambda-auth stuff basically allows the client to hold a small hash corresponding to a chunk of data (probably a huge set) that the server holds, and then the server is be able to prove that the operation occurred by looking at the updated hash. In the online bank case, it could be the ledger of the bank including withdrawals and deposit transaction signatures. For the casino, I suppose this could be a record of the executions of their "games" tied to actual payouts in an online currency in Tau.

So, if I got this right, I'm imagine that a server could prove to any party that it has upheld its obligations as follows:

1. The server publishes the latest signed lamba-auth hash of its data (which would be its entire ledger, etc.) into a timestamped format somewhat like a block chain.
2. For every incoming client request, both the client and the server sign the client's request which both the client and the server keep as a receipt.
3. Then, for discrepancies, either there can be either:
 a. An additional transaction against the client account that the client claims they did not make. If so, if the server can supply the receipt signed by the client, and point to the relevant change in its published blockchain, then it can prove that it was in fact authorized by the client. Otherwise, by absence it would show the server cheated.
 b. A transaction the client claimed was supposed to be run, was not. If the client can show the transaction receipt (that is also signed by the server), and then point to the relevant place in the lamba-auth hash in the server's blockchain and show the transaction doesn't exist, then the client can prove the server cheated. Otherwise, the server's lamba-auth blockchain proves that it did run the transaction.

If that is correct, then this can be simplified by just using the Tau blockchain in place of an individual, per party blockchain for step 1. And then compliance could be automatically enforced by making a rule within the Tau blockchain, that any party that could be proved to have cheated to have their funds frozen, or some other punishment, until the problem is fixed.

Is this about right? Is there any other functionality that I'm missing here?

BTW, I'm becoming more and more impressed with Tau the more I learn about it.


Lambda-auth is a type-theoretic foundation for verifiable computing, that also has a proof of concept. Authentication can be done wrt data, as you mentioned, and also wrt the very execution tree, which is data itself, which is not stored but processed on the fly. This goes a level lower: merkelizing the relevant (auth types) execution tree is done by the reasoner, where it hashes every relevant frame in the proof search tree, namely, the very instructions it performs.

(On tau, the programmer controls the flow of the reasoner by the structure of the code. This is why, for example, order of code matters, unlike RDF standard and common practice, and for the execution proof - also the order of the reasoner's code itself matters.)

Lambda-auth is a standalone approach and does not include any blockchain. Blockchain can of course be used for some kinds of authentication, but is not as instant, efficient, scalable and flexible as authenticating execution at the type system level.

Let's take another example. Standard Bitcoin client comes with some logic of ordering transactions by transaction fees, when mining. Is there a way to know that the miner indeed ran a standard bitcoin client? If they provide the hash of the execution tree, we can make sure that the result came from the code it claimed to come from. Not all nodes even need to verify that proof, one refutation is enough. The refuting clients' reciepts (authenticating the IO boundary) may or may not be found at every given moment, but that's a risk the miner has to take, and the network may set rules to what happens when a refutation is found.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on September 08, 2015, 05:52:09 AM
Do you mean you merkelize the SAT solver derivation tree? Only the path that led to the empty clause / answer predicate clause or the whole tree including failed attempts? If you publish only the merkle root, that would mean that someone who wants to verify the proof has to run again the resolution, rebuild the derivation tree, merkelize it and make sure the root hashes match? If that's the case, the one who verifies needs to have exactly the same knowlege base or the derivation tree might end up being different. How do you speficy the exact applicable knowledge base used to run the query?

BTW what solver are you using? Do you work on conjonctive or disjunctive normal form?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on September 08, 2015, 09:28:11 AM
Do you mean you merkelize the SAT solver derivation tree? Only the path that led to the empty clause / answer predicate clause or the whole tree including failed attempts? If you publish only the merkle root, that would mean that someone who wants to verify the proof has to run again the resolution, rebuild the derivation tree, merkelize it and make sure the root hashes match? If that's the case, the one who verifies needs to have exactly the same knowlege base or the derivation tree might end up being different. How do you speficy the exact applicable knowledge base used to run the query?

BTW what solver are you using? Do you work on conjonctive or disjunctive normal form?

That's all correct, except, tau is basically an SMT solver rather SAT, and all is written from scratch. I don't rule out implementation that relies on existing/dedicated SMT solvers, but that's the status for now. They all (inference, SAT, SMT) follow the idea of resolution/backtracking/DPLL, all pretty much the same.
So the n3 code is itself the SMT problem, isomorphically, and we don't convert it to some smtlib or dimacs format, but we simply follow the resolution over quads.
The proof tree is rooted at the query, and the next level contain terms derived from the first level, using the rules in the given code. This tree that is built implicitly during the inference process is also hashed on-the-fly, supplying a compact proof that the whole process took place.
As in my last comments, indeed there is no point in authing and verifying whole programs, but only Auth types. The programmer has full control over what is hashed and what isn't (up to typesystem constrains, like, IO cannot be Auth type).


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: redfish64 on September 08, 2015, 11:56:23 AM
Let's take another example. Standard Bitcoin client comes with some logic of ordering transactions by transaction fees, when mining. Is there a way to know that the miner indeed ran a standard bitcoin client? If they provide the hash of the execution tree, we can make sure that the result came from the code it claimed to come from. Not all nodes even need to verify that proof, one refutation is enough. The refuting clients' reciepts (authenticating the IO boundary) may or may not be found at every given moment, but that's a risk the miner has to take, and the network may set rules to what happens when a refutation is found.
I don't understand why anyone would want to ask that question. It would be like asking the UPS man, "which route did you take to get to my house?" rather than, "What's in my package?"

A question that would be important would be, are the outputs correct? And since a verify still has to run through the proof regardless if they have the hash of it or not, why do this extra work to verify the hash of the execution?

I'm not saying that I don't see the point in lambda auth. I definitely do, since it allows a client to not need access to an entire database of a server it wants to verify. But this is lambda auth of the data, not the execution, so I'm still curious as to why the route taken is as important as the package delivered.
[/quote]



Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on September 08, 2015, 12:46:13 PM
I don't understand why anyone would want to ask that question. It would be like asking the UPS man, "which route did you take to get to my house?" rather than, "What's in my package?"

To continue the UPS example, say you don't know what package to expect exactly and you want to be sure that UPS haven't tampered it. So the UPS man can prove you that he recieved the package from another UPS man and so forth up to the sender, all with signatures (this authenticates the IO boundary), and, that once it was at the hands of one UPS man, he did only what he shouldv'e be doing and not replacing the package's content, for example (and this is the execution proof).

A question that would be important would be, are the outputs correct? And since a verify still has to run through the proof regardless if they have the hash of it or not, why do this extra work to verify the hash of the execution?

Auth types may imply side effects rather than direct output. Taking the bank example, if you perform a transaction, you'd like to know that the bank did register it correctly in its record, but it's naturally not a part of the output.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: redfish64 on September 09, 2015, 02:39:20 AM
I believe I must be missing something here, so let me play devil's advocate for a second.

To continue the UPS example, say you don't know what package to expect exactly and you want to be sure that UPS haven't tampered it. So the UPS man can prove you that he recieved the package from another UPS man and so forth up to the sender, all with signatures (this authenticates the IO boundary), and, that once it was at the hands of one UPS man, he did only what he shouldv'e be doing and not replacing the package's content, for example (and this is the execution proof).
Except, the UPS man is supplying the hash along with the package, so you can't prove he didn't replace the package's content and give you a hash of a fake log. (This is because the UPS man authors the log himself without any outside supervision.)

Auth types may imply side effects rather than direct output. Taking the bank example, if you perform a transaction, you'd like to know that the bank did register it correctly in its record, but it's naturally not a part of the output.
You are getting a hash from the bank and the bank alone. It can make that hash from any execution path it chooses, without actually running it. As long as the path matches up with the IO boundaries that the client can verify, it won't be able to tell the difference. Also, even if the bank did give you the hash from the actual execution path, there is nothing which prevents it from altering its record after the fact.

Is this correct? Is there something that I am not seeing here?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on September 09, 2015, 12:24:50 PM
I believe I must be missing something here, so let me play devil's advocate for a second.

To continue the UPS example, say you don't know what package to expect exactly and you want to be sure that UPS haven't tampered it. So the UPS man can prove you that he recieved the package from another UPS man and so forth up to the sender, all with signatures (this authenticates the IO boundary), and, that once it was at the hands of one UPS man, he did only what he shouldv'e be doing and not replacing the package's content, for example (and this is the execution proof).
Except, the UPS man is supplying the hash along with the package, so you can't prove he didn't replace the package's content and give you a hash of a fake log. (This is because the UPS man authors the log himself without any outside supervision.)

Auth types may imply side effects rather than direct output. Taking the bank example, if you perform a transaction, you'd like to know that the bank did register it correctly in its record, but it's naturally not a part of the output.
You are getting a hash from the bank and the bank alone. It can make that hash from any execution path it chooses, without actually running it. As long as the path matches up with the IO boundaries that the client can verify, it won't be able to tell the difference. Also, even if the bank did give you the hash from the actual execution path, there is nothing which prevents it from altering its record after the fact.

Is this correct? Is there something that I am not seeing here?

You could always hash whatever you wanted and supply proofs even before lambda-auth, but imagine how the code would look like. The data might be complex and might go through complex processing with sometimes important side effects or outputs in the middle, or recursive types, or dependent types. So if the bank want to auth my balance, it has to calculate it first, while the proof depends on the calculation's inputs. To implement such kind of proof, the bank will have to write code that proves and hashes all relevant data and processing.
Lambda-auth doesn't let you do things that weren't possible before, but it makes the whole thing feasible for complex development. All you need is to mark types as "auth", and the "authness" propagates automatically, together with the proof ofc. So I can handle you a complex program with execution proof hash, and we both shouldn't bother how to follow the path to the types in concern (the ones we want to auth) and skip unauth types. It is also beyond ease of development: without marking types as auth and unauth, tracking a single interesting value might cost infeasible computational complexity, because nothing focuses that search.
I hope I touched some "missing piece", otherwise please tell.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: -Greed- on September 17, 2015, 01:02:36 AM
Thanks for the updates and keep them coming. Good luck. :)


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on September 19, 2015, 10:28:50 AM
I have a few more questions regarding the role of the root chain.

Here is what I understood so far: please correct me if I got anything wrong
- the base Tau client is an empty shell that contains only a reasoner / theorem prover with capability to make lamda auth traces of the derivation tree and a bunch of builtins including DHT, blockchain and FFI APIs. All the logic that will put the client in motion is all written as graphs of quads in a bootstrap file.
- depending on the bootstrap file used, the Tau client can bootstrap the "Tau Chain" network, or something else completely, or both at the same time.
- the TauChain network uses two types of distributed network paradigms: a DHT (like bittorrent) and a blockchain (like Bitcoin).
- The TauChain blockchain will be used for two things: as a time reference (one block = one quantum of time) and as a code repo for higher level logic (the applications).
- the blocks of the TauChain root chain won't contain data, but merkle roots of merkelized datasets
- the data itself will have to be retrieved from the DHT by reconstructing recursively the merkle tree top-down starting from the merkle root
Please do confirm if anything above is incorrect as there is no point trying to explore further if I'm not in the right forest.

What I'm less clear about is how the root chain itself works.

When trying to imagine how I would use a blockchain of merkle tree hashes to make a code repo, the most obvious thing that comes to mind is git because what git does is very similiar to a chained list of merkle trees. It hashes every leaf file of the code repo, represent directories as lists of files and subdirectories hashes which it hashes too all the way up to the root directory of the repo, then it puts the hash of the root directory of the repo in a commit object which it hashes too and that corresponds to a given snapshot of the repo. For each modification, some node in the merkle tree changes, so the hash of the ancestors of that node in the tree are all recomputed upward until the root hash itself that is stored in a new commit. Git keeps the continuity between the snapshots by chaining the commit objects: each commit contains the hash of the previous commit on the same branch as well as the hash of eventual last commits of merged branches. A typical git repo has multiple active branches at the same time.

Now, if the Git analogy is close enough, here is how I imagine the Tau chain would work in that respect. One TauChain block would contain the list of the hash of the HEAD commits of every branch that changed since last block (if there are branches in Tau). The HEAD commit objects would contain references to one or several previous commits from previous blocks as well as the merkle root of a data structure that holds the content. As in git content could be binary blobs (so that general content like raw data, natural language text, source code files, pictures etc can be stored and referred to from within Tau logic), structure objects (frames in our case) like a directory (like in git, to give a hierarchical structure to general content, and also because Tau will need that type of construct to deal with the local filesystem anyway), or unlike git a semantic knowledge base. Is that close enough?

Regardless of whether the above analogy is close enough, how do you plan to merkelize the knowledge base? Unlike file system directories, graphs of quads do not have an inherently top-down hierarchical structure. You could try to create one artificially by using a spanning tree of the graph of quads, but then when the graph changes and you recompute the spanning tree, you are likely going to have something completely different with a different root, and completely different branches, so you wouldn't be able to reuse subtrees of the previous merkle tree like git does with the file system hash tree. One way that would work better is to use "delta" semantics, i.e. commit lists of add-quad / remove-quad commands that need to be applied to the previous state of the graph (a bit like SVN does). But then you would have to fetch and store the whole blockchain to be able to get the complete picture, albeit you could prune all the dead subtrees just like git does. Please confirm.

Another thing I'm not clear about is how context affects the way the knowledge base is merkelized. Clearly context allows to make totally disjoint islands of logic so you could see different contexts as different knowledge bases completely, except that they may refer to one another. With the git analogy, you could have 1 branch = 1 context, but then how to deal with the huge proliferation of contexts? You can't keep a hash for each context in each block as blocks would end-up being huge but you can have millions of branches and update only the ones that changed in a new block so that if no new commit was posted on a branch in a given block, it is assumed that the HEAD of that branch didn't change.

One more thing that I am not clear about is how do you control access to the repo? Do you tie contexts to digital signatures so that only agents that can sign a commit with one of the authorized public key for the context may be allowed to have the commit transaction added to the blockchain?

How do you prevent spam? Do people pay a transaction fee to commit on the chain (I don't see what else you could do frankly)? If that's the case you need a currency as a very basic element of the design. What will be that currency?

You say that people will be free to customize the rules so that TauChain isn't tied to a specific currency, but at the beginning you, HMC and the few of us around who will have managed to wrap their head around the concept will be the only ones able to "customize" the logic, and all of us will have a vested interest in putting Agoras in the center. So we can say that in all likelihood Tau Chain will start with Agoras as native currency. Is that correct?

Now since we are talking about a distributed consensus started among other things around the agreement to use Agoras as a native currency, and using PoW or PoS to protect the network, any attempt from renegade users to create an alternate set of validation rules (including for instance a change of native currency) would end up being a fork and would therefore not be anymore "Tau Chain"... So wouldn't it make things easier to understand to just say that the Tau client and language are currency agnostic, but the original Tau Chain will be relying on Agoras as native currency although there is nothing stopping people from copy/pasting the code of the chain and starting a fork using the same DHT network, same client, and 99% of the same code. Or am I completely off track?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on September 20, 2015, 01:56:17 AM
I have a few more questions regarding the role of the root chain.

Here is what I understood so far: please correct me if I got anything wrong
- the base Tau client is an empty shell that contains only a reasoner / theorem prover with capability to make lamda auth traces of the derivation tree and a bunch of builtins including DHT, blockchain and FFI APIs. All the logic that will put the client in motion is all written as graphs of quads in a bootstrap file.
- depending on the bootstrap file used, the Tau client can bootstrap the "Tau Chain" network, or something else completely, or both at the same time.
- the TauChain network uses two types of distributed network paradigms: a DHT (like bittorrent) and a blockchain (like Bitcoin).
- The TauChain blockchain will be used for two things: as a time reference (one block = one quantum of time) and as a code repo for higher level logic (the applications).
- the blocks of the TauChain root chain won't contain data, but merkle roots of merkelized datasets
- the data itself will have to be retrieved from the DHT by reconstructing recursively the merkle tree top-down starting from the merkle root
Please do confirm if anything above is incorrect as there is no point trying to explore further if I'm not in the right forest.

Correct, a few remarks:
1. Bootstrapping is like BTC - hard coded genesis hash, and bootstrap nodes' IP.
2. "depending on the bootstrap file used, the Tau client can bootstrap the "Tau Chain" network, or something else completely, or both at the same time." -- I can't promise about both at the same time.
3. The blockchain will typically be used for timestamping merkle trees, but technically it can store arbitrary data and it's all up to the rules. Data itself is typically on the DHT and is addressable by the timestamped hash, as you mentioned.

What I'm less clear about is how the root chain itself works.

When trying to imagine how I would use a blockchain of merkle tree hashes to make a code repo, the most obvious thing that comes to mind is git because what git does is very similiar to a chained list of merkle trees. It hashes every leaf file of the code repo, represent directories as lists of files and subdirectories hashes which it hashes too all the way up to the root directory of the repo, then it puts the hash of the root directory of the repo in a commit object which it hashes too and that corresponds to a given snapshot of the repo. For each modification, some node in the merkle tree changes, so the hash of the ancestors of that node in the tree are all recomputed upward until the root hash itself that is stored in a new commit. Git keeps the continuity between the snapshots by chaining the commit objects: each commit contains the hash of the previous commit on the same branch as well as the hash of eventual last commits of merged branches. A typical git repo has multiple active branches at the same time.

Now, if the Git analogy is close enough, here is how I imagine the Tau chain would work in that respect. One TauChain block would contain the list of the hash of the HEAD commits of every branch that changed since last block (if there are branches in Tau). The HEAD commit objects would contain references to one or several previous commits from previous blocks as well as the merkle root of a data structure that holds the content. As in git content could be binary blobs (so that general content like raw data, natural language text, source code files, pictures etc can be stored and referred to from within Tau logic), structure objects (frames in our case) like a directory (like in git, to give a hierarchical structure to general content, and also because Tau will need that type of construct to deal with the local filesystem anyway), or unlike git a semantic knowledge base. Is that close enough?

Regardless of whether the above analogy is close enough, how do you plan to merkelize the knowledge base? Unlike file system directories, graphs of quads do not have an inherently top-down hierarchical structure. You could try to create one artificially by using a spanning tree of the graph of quads, but then when the graph changes and you recompute the spanning tree, you are likely going to have something completely different with a different root, and completely different branches, so you wouldn't be able to reuse subtrees of the previous merkle tree like git does with the file system hash tree. One way that would work better is to use "delta" semantics, i.e. commit lists of add-quad / remove-quad commands that need to be applied to the previous state of the graph (a bit like SVN does). But then you would have to fetch and store the whole blockchain to be able to get the complete picture, albeit you could prune all the dead subtrees just like git does. Please confirm.

I'll start with some background and get to your points:

1. Addressing contexts: at the syntax level, we address contexts as RDF languages do. Let's look at some existing example, like from http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/meet/blue.n3:

@prefix p:  <http://www.example.org/personal_details#> .
@prefix m:  <http://www.example.org/meeting_organization#> .

<http://www.example.org/people#fred>
        p:GivenName     "Fred";
        p:hasEmail              <mailto:fred@example.com>;
        m:attending     <http://meetings.example.com/cal#m1> .

<http://meetings.example.com/cal#m1>
        m:homePage              <http://meetings.example.com/m1/hp> .

We can see that m:homePage is a shorthand for <http://www.example.org/meeting_organization#homePage>. This is declared by n3's @prefix keyword. So contexts refer to each other's resources by the syntax <context#relativeURI>. This lets the user to easily refer to existing code (RDF is all about making it easy to link data [graphs], semantically, as a web). By the way, the implication predicate ":a => :b" (the arrow) is a sugaring to <http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/log#implies>, and indeed this is how it is represented internally in tau and other RDF reasoners. Everything in RDF has that form.

2. So at the syntax level we can specify a prefix, and of course it would better be content-addressable, i.e., given the prefix, I should be able to fetch the code. Once it's URLs it's easy to see how it can be done over the "regular" web, but how can this be done in a closed system like tau?
Indeed we will have to have another way to address content. The mechanism in mind is tahoe-lafs' one: https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/browser/trunk/docs/specifications/uri.rst but note that Kademlia already handles many of the concerns: given the hash of the file part, you can both verify the file's content, and (by the XOR metric) locate nodes storing that file in logarithmic time.

3. Human-readable URIs can be thought and implemented later on the root's rules or locally in a context, with say a Namecoin like mechanism. Nevertheless, you can always refer to "regular" ("unsafe") http contexts, and whether clients will actually recognize them or not is up to their rules.

4. More to your point, tau's root does not come with a predefined git-like mechanism and versioning. Maybe better looking at it as something that you can build git-like repos on top of it. The logic of inserting/updating/accessing data over dht/chain is up to the rules: why would some node store my dht data "for nothing"? Tau comes with technological facilities - but not with agreeing how to use them. So your design of decentralized source control can be done in a context. At this sense, it's like decentralized appstore with one app being decentralized github.

5. A context is typically self-describing. Means, for example, it has to specify the logic of updating its own code. So if I subscribe to your decentralized git context, it will probably include rules of serving as a dht node in your git network, and, that context's rules may also specify the logic of when and how to retrieve and execute a new version of that context's code. It will probably also specify who have permissions to change the code, for example.
Maybe the main point I'm trying to make here is that tau speaks about code being executed, while git doesn't care about execution, it only stores code. So once your code contain rules that are being followed by nodes, it specifies how the code itself change, and your git context does not need some mechanism from above (like built-in in tau or in the root chain) for managing its own code or code repositories it keeps. Once I subscribed to your context, I (possibly) take the first version and replay your code from that point.

6. Aside the contexts mentioned above, there is another structure, which enforces tree structure over practically all tauchain's data, and it touches the very root of tau's logic, namely Martin-Lof type theory. There are many theories with depenent types, for example Coquand's Calculus of Contructions, implemented in COQ, vs Idris that implements Martin-Lof). The crucial difference is ML's universe hirerchy. You can think of it as types being subtypes of other types while everything is eventually a type. So we get a tree of types. Of course, one can describe types that aren't formed as a tree - but then the code will fail to typecheck. On COQ, since you have dependent types only for small types, you need a so-called "tactics" language, in addition to the theories language itself. On ML (Idris), proof tactics can be done at the code itself, since types can refer to any other types as long a the hirerchy doesn't break, separate tactics language isn't needed.

7. Those type universes are the heart of code reuse, more than the above mentioned contexts/prefixes. In fact, when you write @prefix <url>, reasoners don't even download that url. It's not about reusing the data, but about different sources referring to the same terms. On the other hand, reusing code is done by importing a type, which must come with its universe and sub-universes. One may claim that tau's ML type hirerchy is the "real" semantic structure, rather than the structure given by RDF. Finally, this is also the very structure of the auth tree: authness is propagated by nothing but types.

8. There is no plan to have something like git branches predefined in tau, but every block has to contain the conditions of accepting the next block.

Another thing I'm not clear about is how context affects the way the knowledge base is merkelized. Clearly context allows to make totally disjoint islands of logic so you could see different contexts as different knowledge bases completely, except that they may refer to one another. With the git analogy, you could have 1 branch = 1 context, but then how to deal with the huge proliferation of contexts? You can't keep a hash for each context in each block as blocks would end-up being huge but you can have millions of branches and update only the ones that changed in a new block so that if no new commit was posted on a branch in a given block, it is assumed that the HEAD of that branch didn't change.

One more thing that I am not clear about is how do you control access to the repo? Do you tie contexts to digital signatures so that only agents that can sign a commit with one of the authorized public key for the context may be allowed to have the commit transaction added to the blockchain?

How do you prevent spam? Do people pay a transaction fee to commit on the chain (I don't see what else you could do frankly)? If that's the case you need a currency as a very basic element of the design. What will be that currency?

How and what data is merkelized is strongly up to the root's rules, from the following considerations:
1. Indeed, we do not expect a single hash to sign the whole dht, but users should be able to create their custom merkle trees and serve their root's hash for timestamping, though by type-reuse as above they can store only a hash of a complicated type. Still, a specific application, like a sidechain, can summarize itself to a single hash, to be timestamped in the root chain.
2. Storing and processing dht and chain, costs. We do not expect nodes to voluntarily serve arbitrary network request (except the first stages). Some logic for accepting hashes, accepting dht parts, or mining rewards must be considered. Which goes back to decentralized democracy - it is vital to have those settings, and even more vital - to set a plan to how those settings may change with time.  Same for access control and spam. So we do not come up with any predefined currency, and incentives should be determined by the first users, and they have the freedom to set any method they find as good. Nevertheless, apps like Agoras may incentivize miners etc. by their own, so all applications over tau can independently attract miners for their own sake while all tau users might enjoy it (like in difficulty mining, there is no loss to mine for the root chain, only gain for that incentivizing app and to the whle network).

You say that people will be free to customize the rules so that TauChain isn't tied to a specific currency, but at the beginning you, HMC and the few of us around who will have managed to wrap their head around the concept will be the only ones able to "customize" the logic, and all of us will have a vested interest in putting Agoras in the center. So we can say that in all likelihood Tau Chain will start with Agoras as native currency. Is that correct?

This sounds like a viable option, yet I don't rule out another ways. One example can be to simply have "points" and decide later what to do with them. Over tau, we will be able to express our thoughts and goals together, in a clear unambiguous way, do automatic reasoning and simulations over them, and prove consequences. Where will it take us? I can't guess even for the short term.

Now since we are talking about a distributed consensus started among other things around the agreement to use Agoras as a native currency, and using PoW or PoS to protect the network, any attempt from renegade users to create an alternate set of validation rules (including for instance a change of native currency) would end up being a fork and would therefore not be anymore "Tau Chain"... So wouldn't it make things easier to understand to just say that the Tau client and language are currency agnostic, but the original Tau Chain will be relying on Agoras as native currency although there is nothing stopping people from copy/pasting the code of the chain and starting a fork using the same DHT network, same client, and 99% of the same code. Or am I completely off track?

Yes, tau client and language are currency agnostic, and tauchain also begins currency agnostic (a new client will always have to replay from genesis), and it is a possible option that Agoras will take part as tau's currency. If it will happen, I guess that retroactively it will look obvious from the reasons you mentioned, but today we still cannot say that for sure.
Forking of tau's code is possible like any other software, but using tauchain's DHT network or blockchain would probably be a problem - DHT nodes will probably not serve other nodes without a good enough reason, that might be even an execution proof of tauchain's client.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on September 21, 2015, 09:57:33 AM
1. Addressing contexts: at the syntax level, we address contexts as RDF languages do. Let's look at some existing example, like from http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/meet/blue.n3:

@prefix p:  <http://www.example.org/personal_details#> .
@prefix m:  <http://www.example.org/meeting_organization#> .

<http://www.example.org/people#fred>
        p:GivenName     "Fred";
        p:hasEmail              <mailto:fred@example.com>;
        m:attending     <http://meetings.example.com/cal#m1> .

<http://meetings.example.com/cal#m1>
        m:homePage              <http://meetings.example.com/m1/hp> .

We can see that m:homePage is a shorthand for <http://www.example.org/meeting_organization#homePage>. This is declared by n3's @prefix keyword. So contexts refer to each other's resources by the syntax <context#relativeURI>. This lets the user to easily refer to existing code (RDF is all about making it easy to link data [graphs], semantically, as a web). By the way, the implication predicate ":a => :b" (the arrow) is a sugaring to <http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/log#implies>, and indeed this is how it is represented internally in tau and other RDF reasoners. Everything in RDF has that form.

I'm probably misunderstanding your answer, but aren't you talking about namespace prefixes rather than contexts here? Your use of "<context#relativeURI>" really is a QName where what you call "context" is what I call a "namespace prefix". You may be talking about context in the semantic meaning as introduced by the RDF with contexts (http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/RDFwithContexts) proposal, but then it doesn't seem to be the case in your example as you haven't put any marking to inherit and overload vocabulary of a more generic context.

To clarify, what I was talking about in my git analogy was graph contexts, that is to say the semantic space denoted by a named graph (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Named_graph) or the fourth element of NQuads or the bNode of a reified statement. These are key to enable the "anyone can say anything about anything" vision because what is stated in a context isn't being stated in the default / most general / objective context.

2. So at the syntax level we can specify a prefix, and of course it would better be content-addressable, i.e., given the prefix, I should be able to fetch the code. Once it's URLs it's easy to see how it can be done over the "regular" web, but how can this be done in a closed system like tau?
Indeed we will have to have another way to address content. The mechanism in mind is tahoe-lafs' one: https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/browser/trunk/docs/specifications/uri.rst but note that Kademlia already handles many of the concerns: given the hash of the file part, you can both verify the file's content, and (by the XOR metric) locate nodes storing that file in logarithmic time.
Ok, here that seems to be named graphs you are talking about. You could consider IRIs as pointers that can either point to actual data (URL) or to non-existent / out-of-bound location (IRI without actual web resource) and throw an exception upon trying to access the resource (need to determine how you would represent an exception though). You could also keep the POST / PUT  / GET / DELETE semantics of HTTP to allow to modify resources when writeable. This will be needed when a context is used to store or manipulate program state (which will be the case all the time). The nice thing of URLs is that, as your Tahoe-LAFS example shows, they can be made to point to anything so Tau would be able to work with stuff stored anywhere: the SAFE network, the upcoming Ethereum Swarm, HTTP etc.

3. Human-readable URIs can be thought and implemented later on the root's rules or locally in a context, with say a Namecoin like mechanism. Nevertheless, you can always refer to "regular" ("unsafe") http contexts, and whether clients will actually recognize them or not is up to their rules.
I think we need to stop using that "it will be up to user defined rules" narrative because although it is true, it doesn't preclude the fact that the initial Tau Chain will have to be a fully specified and functional system long before the envisioned power-users come and change everything. At the beginning, it will be you, HMC (is he still involved btw? Haven't seen a single post of him since you created this thread and you seem to be running the git repo as a one-man-show these days, would be nice if he could chime in and say "Hi"!) and a handful of early users who will be busy enough trying to understand the thing and rather unlikely to have much to say about the way the original network should be bootstrapped.

I understand that future plasticity of the protocol is important and probably one of the key strengths of Tau, but it's difficult enough to understand what is the actual plan to start with, so I (and I guess, given the level of participation so far, most people reading this thread) would be content working on the approximation / fallacy that the initial network will be a centrally designed thing so that we can spend more time understanding what will be there at launch, and less time trying to get around a non-formalized specification that feels a bit like quicksands at the moment.

4. More to your point, tau's root does not come with a predefined git-like mechanism and versioning. Maybe better looking at it as something that you can build git-like repos on top of it. The logic of inserting/updating/accessing data over dht/chain is up to the rules: why would some node store my dht data "for nothing"? Tau comes with technological facilities - but not with agreeing how to use them. So your design of decentralized source control can be done in a context. At this sense, it's like decentralized appstore with one app being decentralized github.
Ok, I'll probably work on that app when the core is ready.

Regarding the question of how to incentivize DHT participants, I think you'd probably do yourself a great service by starting with an existing DHT network and add later a native one once other more prioritary items have been dealt with. SAFENet is nearing completion and should be live by the time Tau Chain is ready to launch. There is also Ethereum Swarm in the pipeline. That could be a good temporary solution, and it will allow Tau to ride on the coat-tails of SAFE and Ethereum. Once the Zennet side of things is live, you can create a DHT over Zennet. I think Tau Chain shouldn't try to reinvent the wheel and instead use other pateforms as much as possible to reduce the time to market. As you say, nothing is set in stone, so such decisions will be easily reversible later down the line. If you create built-ins to allow DHT-as-a-service, Blockchain-as-a-service, Storage-as-a-service, Computing-as-a-service etc, all it will take to add new services is to implement clients in Tau or bridge native clients in using the FFI, and have them register with the service manager underlying the "as-a-service" built-ins. Tau Chain can be the glue that binds existing resources on the Internet: a badly needed thing! That's also more in the spirit of the original Zennet.

5. A context is typically self-describing. Means, for example, it has to specify the logic of updating its own code. So if I subscribe to your decentralized git context, it will probably include rules of serving as a dht node in your git network, and, that context's rules may also specify the logic of when and how to retrieve and execute a new version of that context's code. It will probably also specify who have permissions to change the code, for example.
Maybe the main point I'm trying to make here is that tau speaks about code being executed, while git doesn't care about execution, it only stores code. So once your code contain rules that are being followed by nodes, it specifies how the code itself change, and your git context does not need some mechanism from above (like built-in in tau or in the root chain) for managing its own code or code repositories it keeps. Once I subscribed to your context, I (possibly) take the first version and replay your code from that point.
Following the discussion in point 2, I think the only thing that would be specific about how to write or read in a context is the transport that is used to access this context. If a URL is http://, the thing (whatever it is) that handles access to that resources will have to offer a server socket, handle HTTP over that socket, and accept HTTP verbs like GET, PUT, POST, DELETE. This is more than enough to deal with the context. If the transport is something else, like for instance SQL or the file system, the commands will be different. All that should be wrapped by one more level of abstraction so that the high-level logic only need to deal with high-level objects like standard object containers (list, vector, map etc.), standard binary objects (blob) and standard function objects / lambdas.

6. Aside the contexts mentioned above, there is another structure, which enforces tree structure over practically all tauchain's data, and it touches the very root of tau's logic, namely Martin-Lof type theory. There are many theories with depenent types, for example Coquand's Calculus of Contructions, implemented in COQ, vs Idris that implements Martin-Lof). The crucial difference is ML's universe hirerchy. You can think of it as types being subtypes of other types while everything is eventually a type.
That's interesting. I'm not familiar with ML but are you saying that not only logical terms are typed? Predicates are typed too? As functions of constant return boolean value 1 maybe? And propositions.. as a 3-tuple of typed objects? And clauses / rules ... as disjunctions of propositions would be a lists of tuples maybe? And graphs an ordered conjunction of clauses.. Another list maybe?

So we get a tree of types.
If it a binary tree, or a more general form of tree?
If it's a binary tree, doesn't that get in the way of code reuse?

For example if you have two disjunctions of clauses say
1) A v B v C
2) E v B v C

Constructing the tree by the left side gives
1) (A v B) v C
2) (E v B) v C

On the other hand had you associated clauses from the right, you could have reused (B v C) without any change to semantic or computational complexity of the derivation.
1) A v (B v C)
2) E v (B v C)

How do you deal with that?

2. Storing and processing dht and chain, costs. We do not expect nodes to voluntarily serve arbitrary network request (except the first stages). Some logic for accepting hashes, accepting dht parts, or mining rewards must be considered. Which goes back to decentralized democracy - it is vital to have those settings, and even more vital - to set a plan to how those settings may change with time.  Same for access control and spam. So we do not come up with any predefined currency, and incentives should be determined by the first users, and they have the freedom to set any method they find as good. Nevertheless, apps like Agoras may incentivize miners etc. by their own, so all applications over tau can independently attract miners for their own sake while all tau users might enjoy it (like in difficulty mining, there is no loss to mine for the root chain, only gain for that incentivizing app and to the whle network).
I may repeat myself, but I think we should focus on getting a "good enough" solution for the start, and rely on the universality of the protocol to postpone the headaches of how to converge to the ideal solution later. There are plenty of projects that deal with the issue of incentivizing peers to store data reliably over a DHT. We should start by relying on these and then work on implementing a native alternative if the quorum feels that this is a top most priority. The other advantages is that it will help Tau at the beginning to be a part of the ecosystem of already popular networks. Tau is so deeply different that there is nothing to fear and nothing to lose by cutting corners at the beginning.

Over tau, we will be able to express our thoughts and goals together, in a clear unambiguous way, do automatic reasoning and simulations over them, and prove consequences. Where will it take us? I can't guess even for the short term.
I really don't think most early users will have the level of theoretical sophistication necessary to express themselves in Tau logic. This may happen at some point once people have caught up or the project has gained enough momentum among academic circles, and after enough efforts have been poured in creating ontologies to express more elaborate thoughts. But you shouldn't count on that at the beginning. Again, at the beginning, it will be you, HMC, and a handful of early users who will bootstrap the network, and communication will be done much more effectively over a good old forum or slate. So there is nothing preventing us from already discussing what the day-0 Tau Chain will look like and creating a spec.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on September 22, 2015, 09:58:15 PM
There is quite much to be said regarding your last comment, but this time HMC will answer.


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on September 24, 2015, 06:57:18 PM
Thanks to Mr. Virgilio Ruilova for a Spanish translation of "Code and Money: Which Comes First"
https://virgilioruilovacastillo.wordpress.com/2015/09/24/code-or-money-tau-chain/


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: HunterMinerCrafter on September 28, 2015, 08:12:34 PM
Hi Klosure!

To clarify, what I was talking about in my git analogy was graph contexts, that is to say the semantic space denoted by a named graph (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Named_graph) or the fourth element of NQuads or the bNode of a reified statement. These are key to enable the "anyone can say anything about anything" vision because what is stated in a context isn't being stated in the default / most general / objective context.

Yes, Ohad's reply was a bit unclear on this point.  I think he has been trying to keep the discussion quite simple, when the answers are unfortunately not quite so.  (This is also why I generally prefer our real-time discussions in the irc channel.  We find ourselves re-answering the same questions more often, but it also takes less total time in "back-and-forth" to communicate all of the relevant particulars of a topic.)

Tauchain operates over rdf quads, so context is as you describe, named hyper-graphs.  However, we make a few particular constraints beyond the standard rdfs (really "lbase") semantics.  Every context in the system carries not only a name (which may be "local" as in a bnode) but also a parent context reference.  These parent context references form a hierarchy (acyclic) up to the "root context" which is the global background graph of the root chain's logic.  We make this additional constraint over the normal semantic web model in order to align our data storage model to our type system's logical module model (cumulative, dependently typed records) which I'll say more on below.

Ok, here that seems to be named graphs you are talking about. You could consider IRIs as pointers that can either point to actual data (URL) or to non-existent / out-of-bound location (IRI without actual web resource) and throw an exception upon trying to access the resource (need to determine how you would represent an exception though).

Tauchain employs a two-phase reasoning cycle.  In the first phase the reasoning is closed-world and dependently typed.  Anything inaccessible is considered false, and any failed dereference is considered as an inconsistency.  This phase is used for checking block validity, reorgs, peer relations, authenticated logic, etc. and is at the heart of tauchain's operation.  The second phase, used for reasoning operations that are "off-chain," handling of side-band communications/processes, or are simply "unsafe" (like FFI) uses a more "traditional" (for semweb) open-world and simply typed logic.

You could also keep the POST / PUT  / GET / DELETE semantics of HTTP to allow to modify resources when writeable. This will be needed when a context is used to store or manipulate program state (which will be the case all the time). The nice thing of URLs is that, as your Tahoe-LAFS example shows, they can be made to point to anything so Tau would be able to work with stuff stored anywhere: the SAFE network, the upcoming Ethereum Swarm, HTTP etc.

We don't exactly want HTTP semantics, mainly because of a lack of referential transparency.  We desire our kb to have certain properties: referential transparency, controlled partial-immutability, monotonicity, and strict positivity within the data model.  Again, this is to support a consistent type system.  Instead of "crud operations" we use a stable assertion semantics.  New data/logic is asserted into a context as facts/rules.  Consistency of these assertions are enforced, meaning an assertion must be consistent with ("allowed by") earlier definition within that context and its parent contexts' established logic.  (In other words, whenever a transaction means to insert new data into a context that transaction itself must first be deemed "OK to insert" by a query to the existing rules of that context as a challenge to the transaction.)

We do not allow any explicit retraction, and do not allow any direct negative assertion.  Instead, we use (weak) negation-as-failure for both constraint and consistency maintenance.  When a new incoming rule both explicitly "implies false" and is successfully allowed into a context by the established rules of that context, any direct contradiction to the implication already existing in that context are considered as having been removed from the context from that transaction on.  In other words, asserting a new constraint that is accepted into the context serves as a facility for "deletion" of any existing data that violates the new constraint.

By this mechanism we do not need separate "CRUD operations" and can keep the knowledge-base as simply a tree of append logs, with nodes per-context.  This simplifies the merkle processes for both the chain management, and the authentication model.

I think we need to stop using that "it will be up to user defined rules" narrative because although it is true, it doesn't preclude the fact that the initial Tau Chain will have to be a fully specified and functional system long before the envisioned power-users come and change everything.

HEH.  Ohad's response here was a bit of a social side-effect of one of our (perhaps seemingly "strange") beliefs about our work.  We very strongly desire to avoid biasing our "experiment" at all costs, and this means that we intentionally avoid public speculation or commentary on certain aspects of how we "expect" the chain to be managed.  Further, we strongly believe that it is neither our place nor our right to make these decisions prior to genesis.  These concerns are for the "future tauchain user people" to address, and indeed finding the "best way" forward with this is central to the whole intent of the tau "experiment" itself.  However, you are correct that we do need a fully specified (and not just any specification, but a stable and sustainable one) system at genesis.  There are, however, two aspects to this concern: the core protocol itself (reference client) and the initial logical state encoded into the data/rules found in the genesis block.

We only intend to "prescribe" from our ivory tower the former, the protocol itself.  We feel it is important that for the genesis block initial logic we do not simply dictate down some initial rules-from-on-high, but instead we hope to gather insights, suggestions, proposals, alternatives, from as broad a community involvement as we can manage to assemble at that time to hopefully reach some initial informal consensus around our initial formal consensus model.  ;)

At the beginning, it will be you, HMC (is he still involved btw? Haven't seen a single post of him since you created this thread and you seem to be running the git repo as a one-man-show these days, would be nice if he could chime in and say "Hi"!) and a handful of early users who will be busy enough trying to understand the thing and rather unlikely to have much to say about the way the original network should be bootstrapped.

Hi!  I am still involved.  You probably won't see me on the github (for a variety of reasons) but I regularly code up samples, examples, explanations, etc for the participants in the irc channel.  Mostly, however, what I do is answer questions and resolve confusions, it seems.

The git repo is not quite as much a one-man-show as it might appear.  We basically have 3 active developers, not counting myself, attempting to finish an as-close-to-ideal-as-we-can-get implementation of the core logic.  We have several "draft passes" at the fundamentals of the inferencer, but are still working to finish meeting our requirements necessary to support our primary use cases.

It is sometimes a flurry of developments and sometimes almost-painfully slow going.  Anyone reading this who feels that they might have something to contribute to development should feel encouraged to stop in and try to help out.

I understand that future plasticity of the protocol is important and probably one of the key strengths of Tau, but it's difficult enough to understand what is the actual plan to start with, so I (and I guess, given the level of participation so far, most people reading this thread) would be content working on the approximation / fallacy that the initial network will be a centrally designed thing so that we can spend more time understanding what will be there at launch, and less time trying to get around a non-formalized specification that feels a bit like quicksands at the moment.

Although it seems to be the "most often proposed approach" we really hope to avoid launching with a "fully centralized" genesis.  Even though it seems that almost everyone involved says (jokingly? seriously? who knows..) they'd be perfectly fine with an initial rule-set along the lines of "any future rule change just needs to be signed by both Ohad and HMC" we really find this to be both quite undesirable and quite unfair both for ourselves and for our hypothetical future users.

The total opposite proposal, a system of "full anarchy" (where initially anyone may simply mutate any rule) has also been brought up a few times, but we recognize that such an approach is trivially unstable and self-defeating.

I can't say what our genesis rules will look like.  I can tell you anything you'd want to know about the protocol itself, the core logic and type theory, what ultimately could/couldn't be done with the system, and any other aspect or concern leading right up *to* the moment of genesis, but "what genesis will be like" is neither something that I will speculate about, nor something worth any speculation, at least not until it is time to actually sit down and write up real (codified in the logic) proposals for genesis.  That being something that I firmly believe should NOT be done by one or two people in a vacuum, anyway.

Ok, I'll probably work on that app when the core is ready.

We have a series of "proof-of-concept" tests planned for tau, which we call "litmus tests" and are designed to verify (in stages) that our construction of the system does support the intended use cases in a stable way.  Many of these tests would have quite a bit of overlap with something like "git on tau" although tauchain itself is not very "git like" in many ways. 

Regarding the question of how to incentivize DHT participants, I think you'd probably do yourself a great service by starting with an existing DHT network and add later a native one once other more prioritary items have been dealt with. SAFENet is nearing completion and should be live by the time Tau Chain is ready to launch. There is also Ethereum Swarm in the pipeline. That could be a good temporary solution, and it will allow Tau to ride on the coat-tails of SAFE and Ethereum. Once the Zennet side of things is live, you can create a DHT over Zennet. I think Tau Chain shouldn't try to reinvent the wheel and instead use other pateforms as much as possible to reduce the time to market. As you say, nothing is set in stone, so such decisions will be easily reversible later down the line. If you create built-ins to allow DHT-as-a-service, Blockchain-as-a-service, Storage-as-a-service, Computing-as-a-service etc, all it will take to add new services is to implement clients in Tau or bridge native clients in using the FFI, and have them register with the service manager underlying the "as-a-service" built-ins. Tau Chain can be the glue that binds existing resources on the Internet: a badly needed thing! That's also more in the spirit of the original Zennet.

It should be noted that the DHT and blockchain semantics used by tau are to be defined in the on-chain logic.  In a sense, tauchain is self-describing.  Only the necessary interface signatures for both the dht primitive operations and the blockchain primitive operations are specified in the core protocol, their implementations themselves are left to the on-chain logic.  This precludes using "an existing DHT network" explicitly.

Further, it should be noted that we have no desire to "ride" anyone's "coat tails" anywhere.  Our work is independent, should stand for itself, and should succeed or fail of its own merits.

Finally, while interoperability with other networks/services is desirable and possible under our design, this is an aspect that has to be treated with some specific care.  The tauchain system itself can only operate and communicate within it's logical framework, which means that the only protocol it can actually speak is rdf.  For many networks/services some extra "bridge" will be required, and such a bridge necessitates certain trade-offs with regard to the assurances and capabilities that the system provides.

Now, as for the original point of incentive, this is a bit tricky...  We only care directly about incentive for the root chain, and assume any other contextual incentive would be defined contextually, of course.  However, the root chain is, in a funny sort of way, "self-incentivizing by default."  The root chain should never need to offer an explicit reward for resource contributions, because it's continuing operation *is* itself the reward!  The continued existence and continuation of the root chain should be enough, alone, to give sufficient incentive for resource contribution to secure the continued existence of the root chain.  Because the system as a whole "lives or dies" by its' root chain, and in order for any contexts to inter-operate they must do so through consensus on the root chain, it is in everyone's best interest to contribute.

I can work through a more detailed example of how this incentive model works out in practice, but this would probably be another case where the discussion would best be had in the irc.

Following the discussion in point 2, I think the only thing that would be specific about how to write or read in a context is the transport that is used to access this context. If a URL is http://, the thing (whatever it is) that handles access to that resources will have to offer a server socket, handle HTTP over that socket, and accept HTTP verbs like GET, PUT, POST, DELETE. This is more than enough to deal with the context. If the transport is something else, like for instance SQL or the file system, the commands will be different. All that should be wrapped by one more level of abstraction so that the high-level logic only need to deal with high-level objects like standard object containers (list, vector, map etc.), standard binary objects (blob) and standard function objects / lambdas.

There are actually two concerns here, interface with the system itself and interface with/between individual contexts.  The interface with the system itself is defined in terms of the type theory, and has only the "lowest level" objects of dependent records of pi/sigma types.  Interface with individual contexts is done in terms of an effect type system, some "built-ins" logic, and the static dht/blockchain signatures.  Any other form of interface would be context specific, and defined within the logic of those contexts.

That's interesting. I'm not familiar with ML but are you saying that not only logical terms are typed? Predicates are typed too? As functions of constant return boolean value 1 maybe? And propositions.. as a 3-tuple of typed objects? And clauses / rules ... as disjunctions of propositions would be a lists of tuples maybe? And graphs an ordered conjunction of clauses.. Another list maybe?

First, here when Ohad says ML he is referring to Martin-Lof Type Theory which is more commonly abbreviated as MLTT.  (ML is ambiguous as an acronym, so confusions could easily be had.)

Under a dependently typed lambda calculus (such as MLTT) there is little distinction between terms and types.  Terms may be parametrized by terms or types, and types may be parametrized by terms or types.  Indeed this is where the name comes from, any dependency is allowed unlike in something like haskell where terms may depend on both types or terms but types may only depend on other types, not on terms.

Propositions are not functions of boolean return, but are types which are parametrized by terms and/or types and which map to types.  You can think of them more like functions which return types, not as functions that return booleans.


If it a binary tree, or a more general form of tree?
If it's a binary tree, doesn't that get in the way of code reuse?

It is a general tree.  Further, the leaves of this tree are made ordinal by the cumulative universe hierarchy.  This gets into some of the nitty-gritty details that Ohad was trying to avoid, but we could point you in the direction of quite a few references on the matter if you'd like.  (Our "go-to starting point" lately is "Programming in Martin-Löf's Type Theory" from Chalmers.)

I may repeat myself, but I think we should focus on getting a "good enough" solution for the start, and rely on the universality of the protocol to postpone the headaches of how to converge to the ideal solution later. There are plenty of projects that deal with the issue of incentivizing peers to store data reliably over a DHT. We should start by relying on these and then work on implementing a native alternative if the quorum feels that this is a top most priority. The other advantages is that it will help Tau at the beginning to be a part of the ecosystem of already popular networks. Tau is so deeply different that there is nothing to fear and nothing to lose by cutting corners at the beginning.

Ouch, there is indeed "nothing to lose" except for the long term viability of sustainability of the system itself.  If we don't take some great care "up front" then the system as a whole will tend toward trivial self-destruction.  (We have quite a few thought experiments to such an effect, btw... more good fodder for discussion in the irc!)

I really don't think most early users will have the level of theoretical sophistication necessary to express themselves in Tau logic. This may happen at some point once people have caught up or the project has gained enough momentum among academic circles, and after enough efforts have been poured in creating ontologies to express more elaborate thoughts. But you shouldn't count on that at the beginning. Again, at the beginning, it will be you, HMC, and a handful of early users who will bootstrap the network, and communication will be done much more effectively over a good old forum or slate.

Quite frankly, I hope that you are actually very wrong on this particular point!  ;D

We intend to include, in the core, support for an OWL inference layer as a built-in "starting point" for hopefully *very* high level reasoning work.  In fact, one of our biggest hopes is that we will be able to support, from day 0, specification of tau data and rules from a controlled natural language, such as ACE.  Further, we expect that much of the earliest work on tau will be in the direction of contexts to support social, crowd-sourced models for systematically converting fully natural language knowledge and constraint into tau encoded contexts.  Most of our "long term vision" surrounds this notion of users with low technical/theoretical sophistication being able to express their notions both with and to tauchain, easily and without significant specialized domain knowledge outside of a basic fundamental understanding of tau's mechanics.  Further, our hope is that within "almost-no-time-at-all" tau will be able to support communication and coordination much more effectively on-chain, over itself, than on the "good old forum or slate."  Indeed many of our group's intended "side projects" are along such lines.  (Development tools "of tau, for tau, by tau" on chain.)

So there is nothing preventing us from already discussing what the day-0 Tau Chain will look like and creating a spec.

Only ourselves!  We feel that it is much more important to focus on the protocol core and reference client, since genesis semantics "shouldn't be up to us" anyway, and any attempt to specify this logic before the core is complete is "too early."  Further, we think that imposing any of our own opinions and beliefs into the conversation "before the conversation has begun" is (potentially) downright dangerous to the ultimate outcome of the project.  We'll gladly discuss (to a point) some general ideas of ways that it "could work" but will not go so far as to begin to specify the genesis rules until it is actually time to do so "for real."

I hope this post has served to clear up some of your questions, and has provided a clearer picture of the design and intent of tauchain.  Again I'd like to encourage you to join our irc discussions as there is really no better way to come to an understanding of what we're doing, where we're at with it, and where we intend to go.

Thank you for your interest, and I look forward to further discussion!

--HMC


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: kartilago on October 15, 2015, 02:59:58 PM
MasterXchange is going to close on 15 november. How can I withdraw my MSC-TauAgoras, perhaps depositing them in omniwallet?


Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on October 15, 2015, 03:03:57 PM
MasterXchange is going to close on 15 november. How can I withdraw my MSC-TauAgoras, perhaps depositing them in omniwallet?

Yes, you can store your coins in any omni wallet. Omni has a local client, and also online wallets exist like omniwallet.org or holytransaction.com

Moreover (advanced usage): you can send omni coins to any bitcoin address. The bitcoin wallet won't know how to parse it, but you can always import that address' private key to an omni wallet at any future time.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on October 17, 2015, 04:37:24 AM
Tau as a Generalized Blockchain
http://www.idni.org/blog/generalized-blockchain


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on October 18, 2015, 04:33:02 AM
Well said

http://i.imgur.com/CbkwXJl.png


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: tobeaj2mer01 on October 18, 2015, 05:43:07 AM
Hi, ohad
What's the status of Tau?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on October 18, 2015, 06:01:29 AM
Hi, ohad
What's the status of Tau?

Hi,

We're on our last and hard steps. After having a working interpreter we're now building a JIT compiler, that must have a closed behavior over time (in order to formalize the structure of the proofs over the network) hence has to come out as optimal as possible from the first place, and we also put a lot of effort into making it as high-performance as possible. Of course, all under the obvious nontrivial effort of doing things correctly. On another scope, soon we'll have a short video presenting tau, and I guess and hope this will help people get introduced to the concept.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Xaltotun on October 30, 2015, 12:35:41 AM
OK, so I created a wallet at omniwallet.org. Do I just send my MSC-TauAgoras to the bitcoin address in the omniwallet? Once that is done, will my omniwallet then show the MSC-TauAgoras asset?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on October 30, 2015, 01:53:46 AM
OK, so I created a wallet at omniwallet.org. Do I just send my MSC-TauAgoras to the bitcoin address in the omniwallet? Once that is done, will my omniwallet then show the MSC-TauAgoras asset?

that's right


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on November 07, 2015, 08:01:38 PM
Let's talk Bitcoin https://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/lets-talk-bitcoin-261-understanding-tauchains


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: richwang01 on November 09, 2015, 09:06:24 AM
Where can I buy this coin?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on November 09, 2015, 02:45:43 PM
Where can I buy this coin?

for now, in email ohad@idni.org
soon the coin will get into bittrex and poloniex


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on November 10, 2015, 02:35:18 AM
Token got into trade in Bittrex   https://bittrex.com/Market/Index?MarketName=BTC-AGRS
Poloniex is next


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on November 10, 2015, 11:48:53 AM
Price of the intermediate tokens will stop going up (the weekly 2%) until further notice. For now the price will remain 0.000634 btc per token


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: tranzactionezlive on November 11, 2015, 02:36:20 AM
Would it be safe to extract from masterxchange straight to bittrex adress of AGRS ? I need a quick reply, thanks.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on November 11, 2015, 11:50:42 AM
Would it be safe to extract from masterxchange straight to bittrex adress of AGRS ? I need a quick reply, thanks.

I don't see any exceptional risk.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: kjn311 on November 11, 2015, 04:02:38 PM
Any plans for artificial intelligence use cases like Siri on steroids? I'm imagining tau chains in a robot. I'm I way off here?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on November 11, 2015, 04:16:51 PM
Any plans for artificial intelligence use cases like Siri on steroids? I'm imagining tau chains in a robot. I'm I way off here?

Indeed as someone who deals with artificial intelligence over the last years, I can't think of a more suitable platform for such than tau.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: kjn311 on November 11, 2015, 05:41:44 PM
Any plans for artificial intelligence use cases like Siri on steroids? I'm imagining tau chains in a robot. I'm I way off here?

Indeed as someone who deals with artificial intelligence over the last years, I can't think of a more suitable platform for such than tau.

Ok. Yea I was listening to the Let's Talk Bitcoin podcast and all I kept thinking about as you were describing Tau was A.I. Like some Skynet type ish and everything that was once only considered in science fiction will become real. Scary actually. Ohad you are becoming the real life Dr. Miles Bennet Dyson.

 /applaud





Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: tranzactionezlive on November 13, 2015, 06:10:44 PM
It's been two days and the withdrawal on MasterXchange is still :

Withdrawal history
amount    fee    date    destination    status    
1000.00000000 msctau    17.00000000 msctau    2015-11-11 14:36:50   14NcWzussr4XKk4ZHv5Cq6PHzGHjg33zbc   pending

I wonder, if these tokens get "misplaced", can you track and re/charge me since the platform is not final and operational ?


I've sent them an e-mail yesterday but received no reply.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on November 13, 2015, 06:21:52 PM
It's been two days and the withdrawal on MasterXchange is still :

Withdrawal history
amount    fee    date    destination    status    
1000.00000000 msctau    17.00000000 msctau    2015-11-11 14:36:50   14NcWzussr4XKk4ZHv5Cq6PHzGHjg33zbc   pending

I wonder, if these tokens get "misplaced", can you track and re/charge me since the platform is not final and operational ?


I've sent them an e-mail yesterday but received no reply.

I've heard from several people that masterXchange are being late in one or two days in withdrawals, beyond the promised two days. But they always received their coins. So I suggest waiting a few days more, and recalling that this time is the last time you'll have encounter their delays.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: tranzactionezlive on November 14, 2015, 01:56:45 PM
It's been two days and the withdrawal on MasterXchange is still :

Withdrawal history
amount    fee    date    destination    status    
1000.00000000 msctau    17.00000000 msctau    2015-11-11 14:36:50   14NcWzussr4XKk4ZHv5Cq6PHzGHjg33zbc   pending

I wonder, if these tokens get "misplaced", can you track and re/charge me since the platform is not final and operational ?


I've sent them an e-mail yesterday but received no reply.

I've heard from several people that masterXchange are being late in one or two days in withdrawals, beyond the promised two days. But they always received their coins. So I suggest waiting a few days more, and recalling that this time is the last time you'll have encounter their delays.


It's what i'm hoping, i am however weary of the limit date of 15th november and what may happen if they decide to go offline before processing the withdrawal, hence my question.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: redfish64 on November 16, 2015, 01:01:18 AM
I had a dream about the regression theory in reverse.

In the dream, a sheep befriended me and magically teleported us to the end of universe. It was dark and empty.

“Heat death, baaa,” it bleated, “is the end of the universe. Your money is no good here. There is no energy to expend.. nothing can be accomplished no matter how much you want to give. Baaaa….”

The sheep then pulled out a watch it carried in its fur, looked at it for an instance and snapped it shut. The scene subtly changed, just slightly. “A moment before the last. Your money is no good here. In a moment it will be useless… if I take it now, I cannot spend it in the future, therefore it is useless now. Baaaaa.”

The sheep took out its watch, and again we went back a moment, and it repeated, “Baaaa, in moment your money will be useless. I won’t be able to spend your money in the future, therefore its useless now.”

And again and again, we did so, going back one moment in time, each time the sheep repeated the line. I was getting dizzy, so I said “Enough!”

It transported me back to the present, and said “All your kinds of money is useless one moment in the future, therefore it useless now!”

--

Is it possible that one day when there are automated agents in Tau, if I can prove something like "All money is worthless" to one of them, then I would be able to trade it a tiny sliver of computation time for all the wealth that it controls?

Could other bugs of logic similar to this exist in Tau?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: BitcoinForumator on November 16, 2015, 07:46:15 AM
I have no idea how to value these coins. What do you people think about the current price?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: tobeaj2mer01 on November 16, 2015, 10:21:21 AM
I have no idea how to value these coins. What do you people think about the current price?

It's pretty low, when the beta launches, the price will go to moon.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: BitcoinForumator on November 16, 2015, 10:29:43 AM
I have no idea how to value these coins. What do you people think about the current price?

It's pretty low, when the beta launches, the price will go to moon.

What is moon in your opinion? Man, I have a hard time understanding even what Bitcoin is capable of. But TauChain, that's a whole different world. If Bitcoin is chinese to an english speaking man, then TauChain is alien language.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on November 17, 2015, 05:20:12 AM
I had a dream about the regression theory in reverse.

In the dream, a sheep befriended me and magically teleported us to the end of universe. It was dark and empty.

“Heat death, baaa,” it bleated, “is the end of the universe. Your money is no good here. There is no energy to expend.. nothing can be accomplished no matter how much you want to give. Baaaa….”

The sheep then pulled out a watch it carried in its fur, looked at it for an instance and snapped it shut. The scene subtly changed, just slightly. “A moment before the last. Your money is no good here. In a moment it will be useless… if I take it now, I cannot spend it in the future, therefore it is useless now. Baaaaa.”

The sheep took out its watch, and again we went back a moment, and it repeated, “Baaaa, in moment your money will be useless. I won’t be able to spend your money in the future, therefore its useless now.”

And again and again, we did so, going back one moment in time, each time the sheep repeated the line. I was getting dizzy, so I said “Enough!”

It transported me back to the present, and said “All your kinds of money is useless one moment in the future, therefore it useless now!”

--

Is it possible that one day when there are automated agents in Tau, if I can prove something like "All money is worthless" to one of them, then I would be able to trade it a tiny sliver of computation time for all the wealth that it controls?

Could other bugs of logic similar to this exist in Tau?

:) tau can help people make software meet their formal requirements. selecting the requirements themselves is an ethical question already ;)


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on November 17, 2015, 10:52:14 AM
@HMC
Thanks for the excellent answer, that clears pretty much all my questions so far. I guess next step to understand better Tau is to get familiar with Idris and read Per Martin Lof's Type Theory (BTW for anyone else interested, there is a copy online there (https://intuitionistic.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/martin-lof-tt.pdf). AFAICT this book is out of print, so you will likely not find it in the normal distribution circuit). That's going to keep me busy for a while. I'll come back with more questions once I have digested the underlying theory.

@Ohad
I've been playing a bit with CWM lately, and I'm underwhelmed by how the negation as failure under a closed world assumption is being handled. Unless I've missed something, it seems that the only way to express a negation using basic CWM builtin semantics is to parse a N3 document into a formula with log:semantics and test for the absence of a specific clause in that formula using log:notIncludes. That seems to be confirmed by a few sources: Norman Walsh's blog (http://norman.walsh.name/2004/04/02/notinrdf) and some chat (http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/rdfig/2004-03-26#T20-58-44) he had with Dan Connolly (one of the authors of CWM). These sources are old but CWM hasn't evolved much since and I haven't been able to find any other way by looking at the documentation and test files. If that's still the case, it means that in CWM negation as failure can only be achieved on static documents included in a file and cannot be done on the general context of the reasoner which is always considered to be open world. So much for the so called "Closed World" machine Huh...

Anyway, since your code examples so far have been compatible with CWM, I was wondering how you planned to handle the negation as failure in Tau from a syntactic perspective. If you already have some idea of what the syntax will be, can you please give an example? I'm thinking of a simple case: build a rdf:List of all objects that do NOT have a specific property set. Let's say for instance all objects that are not a fish to continue the example in your (btw very convincing, congrats!) LetsTalkBitcoin interview.

I'm starting to build an application that I will port to Tau as soon as it's functional, and I need a way to express a negation in a closed world. I could move up the food chain to something like OWL and use set semantics to get my way but I'm concerned that this is like going in the wrong direction on the completeness-vs-consistency spectrum and is going to make it more painful to backport the application to Tau in the future. Can you recommand some existing RDF-flavored language that is close to the target in Tau, and that allows to derive negation as failure in a closed world kb without having to rely on static files to do so?

Of the course the ideal would be to start directly with Tau if the reasoner is already functional. But it would also need builtins.. Maybe I can help you with that if you already have a clear idea of what builtins will be available. If you are planning to adopt a subset of the CWM builtins among other things, that could be a good start.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on November 17, 2015, 12:49:51 PM
@HMC
Thanks for the excellent answer, that clears pretty much all my questions so far. I guess next step to understand better Tau is to get familiar with Idris and read Per Martin Lof's Type Theory (BTW for anyone else interested, there is a copy online there (https://intuitionistic.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/martin-lof-tt.pdf). AFAICT this book is out of print, so you will likely not find it in the normal distribution circuit). That's going to keep me busy for a while. I'll come back with more questions once I have digested the underlying theory.

@Ohad
I've been playing a bit with CWM lately, and I'm underwhelmed by how the negation as failure under a closed world assumption is being handled. Unless I've missed something, it seems that the only way to express a negation using basic CWM builtin semantics is to parse a N3 document into a formula with log:semantics and test for the absence of a specific clause in that formula using log:notIncludes. That seems to be confirmed by a few sources: Norman Walsh's blog (http://norman.walsh.name/2004/04/02/notinrdf) and some chat (http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/rdfig/2004-03-26#T20-58-44) he had with Dan Connolly (one of the authors of CWM). These sources are old but CWM hasn't evolved much since and I haven't been able to find any other way by looking at the documentation and test files. If that's still the case, it means that in CWM negation as failure can only be achieved on static documents included in a file and cannot be done on the general context of the reasoner which is always considered to be open world. So much for the so called "Closed World" machine Huh...

Anyway, since your code examples so far have been compatible with CWM, I was wondering how you planned to handle the negation as failure in Tau from a syntactic perspective. If you already have some idea of what the syntax will be, can you please give an example? I'm thinking of a simple case: build a rdf:List of all objects that do NOT have a specific property set. Let's say for instance all objects that are not a fish to continue the example in your (btw very convincing, congrats!) LetsTalkBitcoin interview.

I'm starting to build an application that I will port to Tau as soon as it's functional, and I need a way to express a negation in a closed world. I could move up the food chain to something like OWL and use set semantics to get my way but I'm concerned that this is like going in the wrong direction on the completeness-vs-consistency spectrum and is going to make it more painful to backport the application to Tau in the future. Can you recommand some existing RDF-flavored language that is close to the target in Tau, and that allows to derive negation as failure in a closed world kb without having to rely on static files to do so?

Of the course the ideal would be to start directly with Tau if the reasoner is already functional. But it would also need builtins.. Maybe I can help you with that if you already have a clear idea of what builtins will be available. If you are planning to adopt a subset of the CWM builtins among other things, that could be a good start.

Thanks,
Later on I'll dig further, but for now I'll mention negation in tau in Martin-Lof's fashion:
Aside implication (=>) as rules, we can also imply false: "{ x y z } => false." When tau loads a kb, it first tries to see if it can prove "false" from it. If so, it rejects the kb as inconsistent. So if a program contains "{ ?x a cat. ?x a fish } => false", the reasoner will assert that cats aren't fish indeed, otherwise reject. Moreover, it can be used as a condition, something of the form "{ ?x a animal. { ?x a cat. ?x a fish } => false } => { x y z }" though I don't know yet how it will syntactically look on tau.

About builtins, yes we'd like to have cwm/eye builtins, at least string/int etc. We tend to mimic eye more than we tend to mimic cwm.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: HunterMinerCrafter on November 18, 2015, 06:50:33 PM
I'd just like to jump in and add some more precise and technical detail to Ohad's answer.  I get the impression that you have the background for an appreciation of these details, and you've raised an excellent question that speaks to the very heart of tau's design.

The short answer is that tau provides for both open world reasoning under standard RDF semantics, as well as a fully closed reasoning under an extended type-system.  The tau inference is a staged, cyclical reasoning process that alternates between what we refer to as "open reasoning" (which is OWA and polymorphic) and "closed reasoning" (which is CWA and dependently typed) in rounds, per block of a chain.

@Ohad
I've been playing a bit with CWM lately, and I'm underwhelmed by how the negation as failure under a closed world assumption is being handled. Unless I've missed something, it seems that the only way to express a negation using basic CWM builtin semantics is to parse a N3 document into a formula with log:semantics and test for the absence of a specific clause in that formula using log:notIncludes. That seems to be confirmed by a few sources: Norman Walsh's blog (http://norman.walsh.name/2004/04/02/notinrdf) and some chat (http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/rdfig/2004-03-26#T20-58-44) he had with Dan Connolly (one of the authors of CWM). These sources are old but CWM hasn't evolved much since and I haven't been able to find any other way by looking at the documentation and test files. If that's still the case, it means that in CWM negation as failure can only be achieved on static documents included in a file and cannot be done on the general context of the reasoner which is always considered to be open world. So much for the so called "Closed World" machine Huh...

Yes, the name is something of a (confusing) joke.  The CWM reasoner employs an open world assumption in general reasoning, as is standard for RDF inference.  It provides this limited facility of scoped negation as failure as a nonstandard extension in it's built-ins.  Unfortunately, as you discovered, this limited ability to reason over a closure often ends up being less than convenient, due to these sorts of interplay with other cwm semantics. (In this case, it's consideration of the whole of the file:// and http:// uri spaces as being subsumed by the kb.)

I'm starting to build an application that I will port to Tau as soon as it's functional, and I need a way to express a negation in a closed world. I could move up the food chain to something like OWL and use set semantics to get my way but I'm concerned that this is like going in the wrong direction on the completeness-vs-consistency spectrum and is going to make it more painful to backport the application to Tau in the future. Can you recommand some existing RDF-flavored language that is close to the target in Tau, and that allows to derive negation as failure in a closed world kb without having to rely on static files to do so?

As Ohad pointed out, we support the slightly more general (but still scoped) negation-as-failure in the style introduced in Eulersharp.  Unlike CWM, this does allow a complement to be calculated all the way up to the background graph, so you can constrain over a whole KB.  (Here tau considers a KB as a parent root context in the typesystem's universe hierarchy, which basically means either the root chain or a sub-context of it.  Tau considers only a specific, finite subset of the uri space as being in the KB scope at any given time, unlike cwm/euler.)

Of the course the ideal would be to start directly with Tau if the reasoner is already functional. But it would also need builtins.. Maybe I can help you with that if you already have a clear idea of what builtins will be available. If you are planning to adopt a subset of the CWM builtins among other things, that could be a good start.

The reasoner is largely functional and already passing much of the cwm/euler swap test suite, but we are still working on testing, debugging, and verification.  We are also currently working on implementing built-ins.  We plan to support most CWM builtin-ins, as well as some of rif, and possibly including some prolog predicates as eulersharp does.  We will also have quite a few tau-specific, of course.

Thanks,
Later on I'll dig further, but for now I'll mention negation in tau in Martin-Lof's fashion:
Aside implication (=>) as rules, we can also imply false: "{ x y z } => false." When tau loads a kb, it first tries to see if it can prove "false" from it. If so, it rejects the kb as inconsistent. So if a program contains "{ ?x a cat. ?x a fish } => false", the reasoner will assert that cats aren't fish indeed, otherwise reject. Moreover, it can be used as a condition, something of the form "{ ?x a animal. { ?x a cat. ?x a fish } => false } => { x y z }" though I don't know yet how it will syntactically look on tau.

About builtins, yes we'd like to have cwm/eye builtins, at least string/int etc. We tend to mimic eye more than we tend to mimic cwm.

OK, to get down to some real details... what Ohad describes initially in his first example is negation constraint at the most primitive level, scoped negation as failure in the open reasoning representation.  This is, as he points out, generally used to assert a consistency constraint on the KB.  When a reasoning context is assembled, the reasoner first queries to see if "false" can be proved directly, and rejects the kb as inconsistent if it can.

This is a rather *critical* aspect of tau to understand, as it is central to both how tau is able to "reject things" as they are coming in to the system, as well as how it is able to retract or "delete" knowledge that it has previously accepted.  When a new block arrives at a node, potentially containing some new facts/rules, it is run through a series of checks.  The block and it's contents are first speculatively added to the KB, and then the reasoner performs a consistency check.  If the block itself is found to be invalid then it is rejected and ignored, and the speculative addition is rolled back.  If the block itself is consistent, then it's contents are each checked for consistency in turn.  If some rule in the incoming block is contradictory to what is in the KB (meaning some rule addition allows the KB to derive false) then the offending fact/rule that was already existing in the KB is considered deleted (retracted) and is removed from the kb for any subsequent reasoning.

For (a trivial and contrived) example, let's say in block 5 it is asserted (by whatever established means in the existing rules, this is unimportant detail) that {<HMC> a tau:SuperAdmin; social:likes food:cheese.} asserting that I am a dairy loving user in a special role, and then in block 10 we decide that this special role is no good, and assert the rule {?x a tau:SuperAdmin}=>false.  During processing of block 10, when it is accepted as a valid next block, the conflict between the new rule and the existing fact is discovered.  The source of the conflict from the KB side is traced to the offending fact from block 5, and this fact is removed from the kb.  The fact that I like cheese remains, block 5 is still considered otherwise valid, and the new rule from block 10 is inserted into the kb.  If block 11 tries to re-assert that I am a super admin, it will fail it's initial consistency check, and will not be accepted.  Now if in another block we later come in and introduce a rule of {{?x a tau:SuperAdmin}=>false}=>false we could then re-assert me as a super admin.  (These could even happen both within the same block, as long as the rule was in an earlier transaction in the block than the fact.)

This is a very low level view of our constraint system, however, as it applies "directly" at the "base" RDF open reasoning semantics.  In tau, we additionally define (within the open logic) a more constrained type-system by representing dependent type signatures (to be exact, we will use dependent record types) over top of the rdfs semantics.  Further, we will implement a type-check pass by a set of constraint rules in the open logic that derive false from ill-formed expressions in this type theory.  As such, any KB formed from a context during these "closed" reasoning passes must entirely fit this structuring, and must be total in it's rule definitions.  (Any well formed closed-reasoning expressions are implicitly also well formed in the open RDF semantics, btw.)  By this mechanism, we establish reasoning over a full closure, and "deny" at run-time the open world assumption during this higher level type check.  This allows for the underlying and "open" scoped negation as failure to sit "hidden" under this extended type theory in the form of an uninhabitable Bottom type arising out of the taking of the full closure of a type-checked theory kb.

This still brings us only to a "mid-level" view of complement within the tau design!  Going a step further, we intend to implement over this closed and typed logic (which in turn is implemented over the open and polymorphic logic) the logic of a tractable OWL-DL subset.  (Unlike the closed reasoning logic, which is enforced during any "on chain" reasoning, this OWL layer is an optional extension for the user to choose to employ, or not, at any level.)  This OWL implementation will "hide" the Bottom type of the closed logic in the same way that the closed logic "hides" the SNAF of the underlying open logic.  This allows for a very natural and high level constraint system over acceptable values, cardinality, equivalences, etc for the user without needing much thought on their part about the mechanical details of the complement reasoning that actually occurs at the lower layers.

Whew, that was a lot of information to burn through so quickly!  Long story short, tau will provide any level of closure that you are looking for, with some caveats with regards to network operation and state change over time depending upon which level of closure we are talking about.  (For example, fully open world reasoning cannot also be "authed" on chain...)  Further, don't fear a jump to a consistent OWL-DL ontology too much, as we do intend to support it.

(EDIT: It seems worth noting here that something like OWL-Full is, of course, "right out."  HEH.)

Of course I have only scratched the surface of these details.  I highly suggest checking out some of the reading materials (a couple of them in particular hit directly on these topics) linked from the #zennet IRC channel's topic.  Also, you should feel encouraged to jump into the discussions there, as this will be the best way to learn about these design decisions and implementation details of the system.  Never hesitate to ask us such questions, we actually love re-discussing this stuff.  (It helps to cement our own understanding, as well!)



Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: NILIcoin on November 18, 2015, 09:51:23 PM



This is a rather *critical* aspect of tau to understand, as it is central to both how tau is able to "reject things" as they are coming in to the system, as well as how it is able to retract or "delete" knowledge that it has previously accepted.  When a new block arrives at a node, potentially containing some new facts/rules, it is run through a series of checks.  The block and it's contents are first speculatively added to the KB, and then the reasoner performs a consistency check.  If the block itself is found to be invalid then it is rejected and ignored, and the speculative addition is rolled back.  If the block itself is consistent, then it's contents are each checked for consistency in turn.  If some rule in the incoming block is contradictory to what is in the KB (meaning some rule addition allows the KB to derive false) then the offending fact/rule that was already existing in the KB is considered deleted (retracted) and is removed from the kb for any subsequent reasoning.

For (a trivial and contrived) example, let's say in block 5 it is asserted (by whatever established means in the existing rules, this is unimportant detail) that {<HMC> a tau:SuperAdmin; social:likes food:cheese.} asserting that I am a dairy loving user in a special role, and then in block 10 we decide that this special role is no good, and assert the rule {?x a tau:SuperAdmin}=>false.  During processing of block 10, when it is accepted as a valid next block, the conflict between the new rule and the existing fact is discovered.  The source of the conflict from the KB side is traced to the offending fact from block 5, and this fact is removed from the kb.  The fact that I like cheese remains, block 5 is still considered otherwise valid, and the new rule from block 10 is inserted into the kb.  If block 11 tries to re-assert that I am a super admin, it will fail it's initial consistency check, and will not be accepted.  Now if in another block we later come in and introduce a rule of {{?x a tau:SuperAdmin}=>false}=>false we could then re-assert me as a super admin.  (These could even happen both within the same block, as long as the rule was in an earlier transaction in the block than the fact.)

I am not a computer person but this specific issue is so central on a most fundamental level (I actualy spent an hour arguing with Ohad on this point, having him disagree with me but yet I got up the next day more convinced that I am right,  :o so Im trying to argue it again  ;D) I insisting that tau by its design as a clean slate is thus  an ever changing rule machine and as such it will be able to revers any rule to the beginning to the first rule that was established. and.... that is eventually all up to computing power and not just logic.!!!! Logic will enforce removing one or the other contradicting fact once it arise, but what will ditemrani which rule is computing power not seniority. if more power is choosing to run the code with one contradicting rule over the of the other contradicting rule, the next rule is set by the "stronger" not the "earlier".

As long as rules are not contradicting  its all go smooth, also if a change only contradict the logic it will be fix on the next block, but if my interest is one and it contradicts another party interest then the computing power become a voting power. and this is where the tau begin to be really interesting.

In a way the tau is designed for "attacks" its design give the answer to any attack since one will need to invest power in keeping a rule from changing at each block if there is a contradicting interest. Thus if most users will be offended by a new rule they will reject it on the next block and the attacker will have to spend again the same power as in the previews block to maintain the change from being revers. basically such a system is immune to attacks.

But far greater then this, such system is the key to an evolution of a true intelligence. Intelligence is not the ability to learn new rules but to change and exchange existing rules. It is also the most essential character to allow the most economic system of life itself, which is the freedom to make mistakes. Assume a rule according to prediction and change it according to feedback on the results.

So I am yet to understand if the tau is such but again, having the tau start as clean slate in must be such. and that is because the building blocks are not rules, but rather logic carried on by computing power.  

And if I am wrong and the tau rules can not be reversed based on computing power, then is will dry off very fast. and will have to restart every time since it will never be able to fix it self or adjust to meet the best possible results for all participants (game theory style) and will never have the incentives to put computing power into maintaining a voting power.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: NILIcoin on November 19, 2015, 09:25:06 AM



This is a rather *critical* aspect of tau to understand, as it is central to both how tau is able to "reject things" as they are coming in to the system, as well as how it is able to retract or "delete" knowledge that it has previously accepted.  When a new block arrives at a node, potentially containing some new facts/rules, it is run through a series of checks.  The block and it's contents are first speculatively added to the KB, and then the reasoner performs a consistency check.  If the block itself is found to be invalid then it is rejected and ignored, and the speculative addition is rolled back.  If the block itself is consistent, then it's contents are each checked for consistency in turn.  If some rule in the incoming block is contradictory to what is in the KB (meaning some rule addition allows the KB to derive false) then the offending fact/rule that was already existing in the KB is considered deleted (retracted) and is removed from the kb for any subsequent reasoning.

For (a trivial and contrived) example, let's say in block 5 it is asserted (by whatever established means in the existing rules, this is unimportant detail) that {<HMC> a tau:SuperAdmin; social:likes food:cheese.} asserting that I am a dairy loving user in a special role, and then in block 10 we decide that this special role is no good, and assert the rule {?x a tau:SuperAdmin}=>false.  During processing of block 10, when it is accepted as a valid next block, the conflict between the new rule and the existing fact is discovered.  The source of the conflict from the KB side is traced to the offending fact from block 5, and this fact is removed from the kb.  The fact that I like cheese remains, block 5 is still considered otherwise valid, and the new rule from block 10 is inserted into the kb.  If block 11 tries to re-assert that I am a super admin, it will fail it's initial consistency check, and will not be accepted.  Now if in another block we later come in and introduce a rule of {{?x a tau:SuperAdmin}=>false}=>false we could then re-assert me as a super admin.  (These could even happen both within the same block, as long as the rule was in an earlier transaction in the block than the fact.)

I am not a computer person but this specific issue is so central on a most fundamental level (I actualy spent an hour arguing with Ohad on this point, having him disagree with me but yet I got up the next day more convinced that I am right,  :o so Im trying to argue it again  ;D) I insisting that tau by its design as a clean slate is thus  an ever changing rule machine and as such it will be able to revers any rule to the beginning to the first rule that was established. and.... that is eventually all up to computing power and not just logic.!!!! Logic will enforce removing one or the other contradicting fact once it arise, but what will ditemrani which rule is computing power not seniority. if more power is choosing to run the code with one contradicting rule over the of the other contradicting rule, the next rule is set by the "stronger" not the "earlier".

As long as rules are not contradicting  its all go smooth, also if a change only contradict the logic it will be fix on the next block, but if my interest is one and it contradicts another party interest then the computing power become a voting power. and this is where the tau begin to be really interesting.

In a way the tau is designed for "attacks" its design give the answer to any attack since one will need to invest power in keeping a rule from changing at each block if there is a contradicting interest. Thus if most users will be offended by a new rule they will reject it on the next block and the attacker will have to spend again the same power as in the previews block to maintain the change from being revers. basically such a system is immune to attacks.

But far greater then this, such system is the key to an evolution of a true intelligence. Intelligence is not the ability to learn new rules but to change and exchange existing rules. It is also the most essential character to allow the most economic system of life itself, which is the freedom to make mistakes. Assume a rule according to prediction and change it according to feedback on the results.

So I am yet to understand if the tau is such but again, having the tau start as clean slate in must be such. and that is because the building blocks are not rules, but rather logic carried on by computing power.  

And if I am wrong and the tau rules can not be reversed based on computing power, then is will dry off very fast. and will have to restart every time since it will never be able to fix it self or adjust to meet the best possible results for all participants (game theory style) and will never have the incentives to put computing power into maintaining a voting power.

Lets for example take a rule of making rule, which most likely will be one of the  first rules to be tested. the rule is : "In order to change a rule, over 70% have to vote for it" . Now lets take it step by step.This voting process itself have many layers but the most fundamental layer will be for someone who run the code to submit a change. thus only if 70% submit the change to the code, it can be changed.  Now that is all nice an dandy and from now on even  to change the 70% constituting rule we will need 70%. Well....wrong!!! our intuition assert that but it is not true. If the 70% rule would have been a part of the genesis code of tauchain, then to overrule it you would have to rewrite the tau code. however since it is a rule that is not part of the tau code it can be changed withing the framework of the chain which constituted it!!!!
If anything,  this is the most important feature of the tau, the fact that the code itself is not bound to any rule but to logic framework and the computing power that runs it only.
The 70% rule can be overruled by an offer , say a 35%. by a 51% computing power "attack". but unlike in bitcoin such an "attack" is part of the fair game. It is in actual the most important factor of the game. Unlike bitcoin it is not devastating to the entire ecosystem but rather the incentive itself that prop up the entire ecosystem..
So to recap, just like in life itself the tau will end up running on the verge of the 50% agreement at all times. while power will tend to concentrate to reach that benchmark, it will be decentralized up to the last user. but more so.......

This brings us the the business model of the tauchain  - The Agora tokens of the decentralized super computer!!!!
This Agora fueled mechanism actualy allow each user on the tauchain to put his/her voting power into computing power.
as explained before, Computing power is eventually the ruling power. Thus by using the Agora platform I, as a user, will be able to direct all me power to support my vote.


Yes there is one concern here. a concern that all my resources will go to "fight" for my voice, but I believe that this will happened only at times of chaos. At most times the entire ecosystem will operate on some balance and most users will be able to allocate their resources to different tasks on the network, tasks which meets their broader goals. However at time of need they will be able to pull it out in order to support an essential change in the network constituting rules. The simplicity of  reallocation of power on the tauchain network thru the Agora layer will make the use of the of that supercomputer most appealing to all tau chain participants, thus a good investment in the token.   


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: HunterMinerCrafter on November 19, 2015, 05:25:28 PM
The 70% rule can be overruled by an offer , say a 35%. by a 51% computing power "attack". but unlike in bitcoin such an "attack" is part of the fair game. It is in actual the most important factor of the game. Unlike bitcoin it is not devastating to the entire ecosystem but rather the incentive itself that prop up the entire ecosystem..
So to recap, just like in life itself the tau will end up running on the verge of the 50% agreement at all times. while power will tend to concentrate to reach that benchmark, it will be decentralized up to the last user. but more so.......

I'll keep my reply to this brief(ish) here.  Ultimately this is part of the (much bigger) discussion from the channel about the "implicit vote" aspect of the system.  You are not exactly wrong in anything that you've put, but these are a bit "deeper" details than what Klosure was really looking for, I think.

We generally like to keep the discussion "simple" in our hypothetical scenarios about post-genesis operation, by assuming that consensus proceeds normally by only "on chain mechanics."  You are correct in that such mechanics are not really the totality of the story - it is not actually as simple as "vote per the rules" alone.  There are, of course, actually two additional ways besides "per the rules" that rules can be manipulated!

First, a sufficient number of users simply choosing to diverge their rule selection from that of the rest of the network.  In other words, if a majority of users decide to stray from protocols as decided upon mechanically, and instead follow protocol as decided upon personally, then the network will "follow" the users, despite the new protocol direction being in contradiction with the systematically accepted rules.  This is the scenario that you describe, and it is what we call the "implicit vote" mechanism.  Technically this same mechanism exists, verbatim, in bitcoin.  If suddenly a majority of users decided to block the addresses of a dominant miner, it wouldn't matter how much hash-rate that miner ramped up, they could not continue to produce btc blocks.  This is a form of soft fork.

Second, there is a (quite related) aspect of tau which we refer to as "going mao."  This is where the structuring of the rules (at some context) reaches a point at which the semantics of that context become such that it is no longer the case that all participants in that context are allowed to know (have divulged to them) all rules within the context.  By this mechanism, also, the system can be structured such that rule selection decisions are not longer necessarily entirely "on chain" and per protocol.  This one does not exactly have a direct parallel in bitcoin, except as a loose comparison to a special sort of hard fork.  For tau, this is generally considered something of an "ultimate fail-safe" mechanism for controlling contexts, but is usually seen as something of a "nuclear devastation" option.  It allows for the ability to "revert" a contexts control no matter what scenario has occurred within the rules, but also leaves the knowledgebase of that context (after the event) in a state in which the system can no longer offer all of the same level of assurances to it's users about safety and security of their operation within the network.  This is generally regarded as something of a last resort option for context survival, and the general consensus among our team is that users should generally be quite wary of participating in contexts which have gone this route.

(Of course, as in bitcoin, there is also always the third option of straight up hard forks of the core!  This would also be the only way to change *genesis* rules, and starting from an alternate genesis hash is considered a fork of the core.  However, this is a bit different from what we are really talking about here... which is rule manipulation "on chain.")

However, it is much easier to conceptualize and discuss the basic mechanics of tau without going into the details of these two "context panic button" related aspects, particularly for new people who do not have the same background/exposure to our discussions.  It is generally assumed that these two aspects of the mechanics will only rarely be of concern, and will not be the normal course of operation for tau contexts.  (We might be wrong.  It might turn out, somehow, that users decide that in their post-genesis world it is actually better, for some unknown-to-us-now reason, to leverage the implicit vote and/or changing from nomic to mao as a common matter of course.  I can't possibly imagine that this will be the outcome, as there are  lot of caveats and potential "dangers" to users that arise out of both of these mechanisms, so personally I suspect that these will always be regarded as nothing more than "fail-safes" reserved for only the most extreme circumstances within a context, and will rarely be employed.)

Yes there is one concern here. a concern that all my resources will go to "fight" for my voice, but I believe that this will happened only at times of chaos. At most times the entire ecosystem will operate on some balance and most users will be able to allocate their resources to different tasks on the network, tasks which meets their broader goals. However at time of need they will be able to pull it out in order to support an essential change in the network constituting rules. The simplicity of  reallocation of power on the tauchain network thru the Agora layer will make the use of the of that supercomputer most appealing to all tau chain participants, thus a good investment in the token.   

This speaks quite directly to another point that comes up in the IRC from time to time: allocation of resource.  Unlike in btc, where mining is "easy" in that there is only one task to direct all resource toward so mining rigs are basically "set it and forget it," on tau there will always be a decision point when volunteering resources to the network.  The contributor always has to make some choice of "where and how" to apply their contributed resource.  The canonical example is whether to put work toward deepening the root chain with your context pegged, versus work toward deepening your context's chain itself.  Indeed, as you point out, it will be the balance of these trade-offs in resource contribution selections that will keep tau well stabilized and "directed" over time. (At least that is the hope!)

However, I am not sure that I agree entirely with your analysis of how this affects the Agoras token.  Specifically, I don't think there is ever a realistic circumstance (assuming all actors are rational) where the agoras resources could be meaningfully "redirected" as resource contribution back into tau itself in order to influence root rules.  The problem that I see, here, is that if there is some decision point to be made on root, the *original* contributors of the resource into Agoras will divert all of this resource toward operation on root themselves, in hopes of influencing this root chain decision point toward *their* favored outcome, when possible.  This means that such resource will not be available to Agoras users at that time, for them to leverage toward directing root.  In other words, the person providing the resource into Agoras will have to decide if it is ultimately better for them to continue to rent that resource into agoras, effectively "selling" their influence over the rule direction, or if it is better to divert that resource themselves and ensure that any influence it can have is directed in the way that they desire.  I would imagine that for any really meaningful change to tau, itself, at root (which we expect will be an extremely rare event anyway) the decision would almost always be to direct that resource at root themselves instead of continuing to rent.  As such, I'm not sure that it is safe to assume any direct impact from such occurrences on the Agoras token's market value at all.

But then again, I could be entirely wrong on this point.  This is not investment advice, and everyone should do their own considerations of this, and make their own decisions about such a matter!

Trying to speculate heavily, now, on the post-genesis nature of tau is, IMO, likely a fool's errand.  It is very difficult to say what the dynamics will actually end up being in any longer term, and what a post-tau-genesis world will actually begin to look like, beyond simply "different."  ;D

(Woops, that did not end up as being very brief at all...)


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: tobeaj2mer01 on November 22, 2015, 03:31:11 AM
What about the status of Venture Investment?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lujunqing7890 on November 22, 2015, 02:14:09 PM
I do not understand Agoras token, why in bittrex sell, start trading. I do not know how many total IPO BTC, it is not already closed, it sent out so many Agoras token, how much money are ready to tau-chain on those tokens become, there is the hands of the team or the community ready to take the number of credits, we do not know, so you start trading, the grass is not too handsome bar.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: sulfurtank on November 23, 2015, 11:09:35 PM

Fair enough you can add far more to a Turing complete system like user I/o to make it useful. But I think it does behave more like a Turing machine than most computers because presumably in verifying the blockchain you run it in order.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on November 23, 2015, 11:33:49 PM
What about the status of Venture Investment?

VCs typically aren't interested on such type of projects and business models. I think this is obvious, but if you want we can speak more about it.

I do not understand Agoras token, why in bittrex sell, start trading. I do not know how many total IPO BTC, it is not already closed, it sent out so many Agoras token, how much money are ready to tau-chain on those tokens become, there is the hands of the team or the community ready to take the number of credits, we do not know, so you start trading, the grass is not too handsome bar.

All presale information is rooted at http://www.idni.org/pre-sale, but I agree that summarizing it in OT is a good idea.

Fair enough you can add far more to a Turing complete system like user I/o to make it useful. But I think it does behave more like a Turing machine than most computers because presumably in verifying the blockchain you run it in order.

The problem with Turing completeness is that it allows too much - we don't want to add it abilities but rather remove abilities, though in a nontrivial way. For more information please visit the links at tauchain.org that speak about this subject (specifically, "Tau-Chain Primer" and the Let's Talk Bitcoin show).


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on November 26, 2015, 03:23:46 PM
Yesterday I gave a talk on a Bitcoin conference in Tel-Aviv, will go up to youtube soon.

I encountered a common question which I'd like to dedicate a post here: do tau really speak about efficient autoproving? Do we have a P-time algo for NPC problems?
Unfortunately, no. Proof is a hard problem, exponential time, no matter which logic we pick, let it be Turing or Martin-Lof or Euclidean geometry.

Yet, tau is not about such uses. It is not about software being able to prove everything automatically. Proof in general is indeed unfeasible. Indeed, we do not expect the autoprover to fully automatically prove that, for example, that any given code meets or not any given requirements, at least not in a lifetime (though theoretically it's always possible with long enough time). Otherwise we could just solve all unsolved math problems.

Nevertheless, the program has to "lead" the prover to the proof, and "miss" only "small enough" details. If you know that your code meets the requirements, you can write it in a way that the prover will find the proof quickly. One cannot expect to write code that depends on very deep insights (like Goldbach conjecture) while hiding it from the prover. At one extreme, code can be as explicit as in Turing machine languages, leaving almost no room for inference. In practice, automatic proving is meant to be used in a way computers can handle, still they're very useful even while proof being a hard task.
Conversely, you can write a proof yourself, or, add some lemmas to make life easier to the autoprover.

The writer of the code should check how many steps it takes to prove the claimed assertions about it, and to keep in mind that users won't use that code if their autoprover is exhausted after some iterations.

Verification of the proof, though, is linear. It is exactly the length of the proof.

The difference between consistent and inconsistent logic is: given a proof, can I trust that the proved statement is true indeed? Under Turing machine logic, both true and false claims can be proved.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: synechist on November 26, 2015, 09:21:43 PM
Just thought I'd check in to thank you folks for the great conversation in this thread. Fascinating stuff. I love this project!

Cheers

Arlyn


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: oryeger on November 28, 2015, 10:51:55 AM
hello Ohad,

What is the current state of the project and the pre-sale?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on November 28, 2015, 11:02:48 AM
hello Ohad,

What is the current state of the project and the pre-sale?

Hi Or,
In short and in general, presale is ongoing, still (much) less than 10% were sold, development is ongoing and we're now at the last and hard stage from moving from interpreter to compiler. We're on this stage for quite a while, but we don't want to give up performance, and far to mention - correctness.
Any more specific questions are welcome.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Laamadeus on December 04, 2015, 08:34:30 PM
hello Ohad,

What is the current state of the project and the pre-sale?

Hi Or,
In short and in general, presale is ongoing, still (much) less than 10% were sold, development is ongoing and we're now at the last and hard stage from moving from interpreter to compiler. We're on this stage for quite a while, but we don't want to give up performance, and far to mention - correctness.
Any more specific questions are welcome.

Are you the owner of biggest wallet on bittrex?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on December 04, 2015, 08:46:34 PM
hello Ohad,

What is the current state of the project and the pre-sale?

Hi Or,
In short and in general, presale is ongoing, still (much) less than 10% were sold, development is ongoing and we're now at the last and hard stage from moving from interpreter to compiler. We're on this stage for quite a while, but we don't want to give up performance, and far to mention - correctness.
Any more specific questions are welcome.

Are you the owner of biggest wallet on bittrex?

yes


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on December 04, 2015, 10:13:06 PM
I wrote a summary of the current presale status http://www.idni.org/blog/presale-update
Also I updated the description of Agoras http://www.idni.org/agoras


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: rocanonz on December 05, 2015, 05:23:32 PM
I wrote a summary of the current presale status http://www.idni.org/blog/presale-update
Also I updated the description of Agoras http://www.idni.org/agoras
Hi ohad,
When do you intend to stop the presale, and burn the remaining premied Agoras coins?
A development calendar for tauchain?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on December 05, 2015, 05:47:38 PM
I wrote a summary of the current presale status http://www.idni.org/blog/presale-update
Also I updated the description of Agoras http://www.idni.org/agoras
Hi ohad,
When do you intend to stop the presale, and burn the remaining premied Agoras coins?
A development calendar for tauchain?

Hi,
The coins will be destroyed at the final step - when Agoras is ready, which is several months (4?) after Tau is ready, which will take another such order of magnitude of time from now, by pessimistic estimation. Only when we deliver an actually working economy as we promised, the intermediate tokens will be destroyed, still a moment before the real coins are usable. Nevertheless I must stress that even though the technical feasibility of the project is unquestionable - we don't do anything that didn't already prove itself working out there - the development time is extremely difficult to estimate. This is because we cannot give up quality. We can't deliver tau/agoras with one bug and fix it later. The network must be correct=secure from genesis (unlike the standards of other players, but mostly because it may be technically impossible to change certain things after genesis, mainly the underlying logic). This also regards performance bugs.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: rocanonz on December 05, 2015, 09:25:07 PM
I wrote a summary of the current presale status http://www.idni.org/blog/presale-update
Also I updated the description of Agoras http://www.idni.org/agoras
Hi ohad,
When do you intend to stop the presale, and burn the remaining premied Agoras coins?
A development calendar for tauchain?

Hi,
The coins will be destroyed at the final step - when Agoras is ready, which is several months (4?) after Tau is ready, which will take another such order of magnitude of time from now, by pessimistic estimation. Only when we deliver an actually working economy as we promised, the intermediate tokens will be destroyed, still a moment before the real coins are usable. Nevertheless I must stress that even though the technical feasibility of the project is unquestionable - we don't do anything that didn't already prove itself working out there - the development time is extremely difficult to estimate. This is because we cannot give up quality. We can't deliver tau/agoras with one bug and fix it later. The network must be correct=secure from genesis (unlike the standards of other players, but mostly because it may be technically impossible to change certain things after genesis, mainly the underlying logic). This also regards performance bugs.
Your project is revolutionary and it's product the tauchain, can have a big impact. Thank you for clarification.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: tobeaj2mer01 on December 18, 2015, 08:28:39 AM
Is there any update, there is no update of the code in Github for a long time.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on December 18, 2015, 08:31:29 AM
Is there any update, there is no update of the code in Github for a long time.

There are updates on github just on another branch so you don't see it on master branch. Also I work mainly locally lately.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on December 23, 2015, 07:55:09 PM
High-level interview about Tau https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ORpi2MMJrA


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on January 08, 2016, 05:14:46 PM
Price of the intermediate tokens will stop going up (the weekly 2%) until further notice. For now the price will remain 0.000634 btc per token

due to bitcoin price change, price per token updated to 0.000465


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on January 08, 2016, 05:15:00 PM
New video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SXfYgQxsOA


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: e1ghtSpace on January 20, 2016, 11:56:56 AM
New video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SXfYgQxsOA
Wow, great video!
Finally I managed to buy 400 tokens, looking forward to the release!


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on January 20, 2016, 09:32:39 PM
Price of the intermediate tokens will stop going up (the weekly 2%) until further notice. For now the price will remain 0.000634 btc per token

due to bitcoin price change, price per token updated to 0.000465

When will be the end of selling? Still 4 months?
I am feeling a little fooled. It didn't seem to me that the selling will be over several months and marketing campaigns...
and reducing the price is not fair for early buyers as well... greedy?
I mean, hello.. I was spending my bitcoins here, and if i kept them I would have get more?
Sorry, but its getting suspicious...


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on January 20, 2016, 09:45:23 PM
Price of the intermediate tokens will stop going up (the weekly 2%) until further notice. For now the price will remain 0.000634 btc per token

due to bitcoin price change, price per token updated to 0.000465

When will be the end of selling? Still 4 months?
I am feeling a little fooled. It didn't seem to me that the selling will be over several months and marketing campaigns...
and reducing the price is not fair for early buyers as well... greedy?
I mean, hello.. I was spending my bitcoins here, and if i kept them I would have get more?
Sorry, but its getting suspicious...


Hi,
Reducing the price is only to adopt the BTC price -- the price isn't reduced in USD terms and in fact always only went up. BTC went almost x2 on this period of time and the price update wasn't as high. From since the beginning we informed that the prices would be rated in USD rather BTC. Moreover, the early buyers are always taken heavily into consideration and indeed price never went down in USD terms even once, but went up a lot.
I don't think it was ever said or clued that the sale will be over after a few months - in fact it will be ended significant period of time after tauchain will be ready. The sale will be ended when the Agoras network begins (with its true coins rather intermediate tokens as exist now), and at that point of time all unsold coins would be destroyed.
The price will go up again, but after 2% weekly for almost a year, I think it's ok to hold for a period of time, also because after all it's not that we've seen extremely high exchange volumes so to speak. Also I think that the biggest public interest on the tokens will be after tau is ready and before agoras is ready.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on January 20, 2016, 09:56:00 PM
Hi,
Reducing the price is only to adopt the BTC price -- the price isn't reduced in USD terms and in fact always only went up. BTC went almost x2 on this period of time and the price update wasn't as high. From since the beginning we informed that the prices would be rated in USD rather BTC. Moreover, the early buyers are always taken heavily into consideration and indeed price never went down in USD terms even once, but went up a lot.
I don't think it was ever said or clued that the sale will be over after a few months - in fact it will be ended significant period of time after tauchain will be ready. The sale will be ended when the Agoras network begins (with its true coins rather intermediate tokens as exist now), and at that point of time all unsold coins would be destroyed.
The price will go up again, but after 2% weekly for almost a year, I think it's ok to hold for a period of time, also because after all it's not that we've seen extremely high exchange volumes so to speak. Also I think that the biggest public interest on the tokens will be after tau is ready and before agoras is ready.

The bitcoin price will probably raise further. So will you further reduce agoras price in bitcoin terms then? If bitcoin 10folds tau crashes in bitcoin? Did I invest in fiat?
We are in crypto space, dollar means nothing...


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on January 20, 2016, 09:59:14 PM
Hi,
Reducing the price is only to adopt the BTC price -- the price isn't reduced in USD terms and in fact always only went up. BTC went almost x2 on this period of time and the price update wasn't as high. From since the beginning we informed that the prices would be rated in USD rather BTC. Moreover, the early buyers are always taken heavily into consideration and indeed price never went down in USD terms even once, but went up a lot.
I don't think it was ever said or clued that the sale will be over after a few months - in fact it will be ended significant period of time after tauchain will be ready. The sale will be ended when the Agoras network begins (with its true coins rather intermediate tokens as exist now), and at that point of time all unsold coins would be destroyed.
The price will go up again, but after 2% weekly for almost a year, I think it's ok to hold for a period of time, also because after all it's not that we've seen extremely high exchange volumes so to speak. Also I think that the biggest public interest on the tokens will be after tau is ready and before agoras is ready.

The bitcoin price will probably raise further. So will you further reduce agoras price in bitcoin terms then? If bitcoin 10folds tau crashes in bitcoin? Did I invest in fiat?
We are in crypto space, dollar means nothing...

The price-in-fiat way was announced from the beginning and mentioned all along. And I think this is the responsible thing to do. We cannot put the project's funds at the risk of BTC fluctuations. Did you see how much Ethereum lost due to BTC price change?..


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on January 20, 2016, 10:05:59 PM
The price-in-fiat way was announced from the beginning and mentioned all along. And I think this is the responsible thing to do. We cannot put the project's funds at the risk of BTC fluctuations. Did you see how much Ethereum lost due to BTC price change?..

Ethereum lost nothing. They just have to keep the funds until price goes higher again. Dumping is not helping here. We crypto guys are responsible for the adaption.
If even we can't live 50% rollercoasters, how can we ever get this whole shit public adapted?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on January 20, 2016, 10:09:29 PM
The price-in-fiat way was announced from the beginning and mentioned all along. And I think this is the responsible thing to do. We cannot put the project's funds at the risk of BTC fluctuations. Did you see how much Ethereum lost due to BTC price change?..

Ethereum lost nothing. They just have to keep the funds until price goes higher again. Dumping is not helping here. We crypto guys are responsible for the adaption.
If even we can't live 50% rollercoasters, how can we ever get this whole shit public adapted?

Ok I respect your opinion though majority of the buyers rather support the fiat paradigm for the same reasons. We all want the same thing.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: freedomfighter on February 01, 2016, 06:21:52 PM
It seems that once Tau goes online, and a few exchanges pick up the temporary AGRS, or even after the AGRS genesis comes through, that all denominations will be based on BTC. So this is really a mute point to argue about, as this approach is relevant only for the early pre-genesis pre-trade mode.   


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Pofick on February 03, 2016, 09:18:02 PM
Any news on the project?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 04, 2016, 02:19:58 AM
Any news on the project?
I'm still wrapping my head around converging to the best compilation architecture for tau. It is a delicate and hard task.
BTW this is from today: http://bitcoinist.net/six-ethereum-projects-and-its-five-competitors/


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: redfish64 on February 05, 2016, 12:35:23 AM
Any news on the project?
I'm still wrapping my head around converging to the best compilation architecture for tau. It is a delicate and hard task.
BTW this is from today: http://bitcoinist.net/six-ethereum-projects-and-its-five-competitors/
You've been working on that for a long time. Have you considered working on the actual code to bootstrap Tau first, and come back to this later?

I know that when building something as complex as a new language, and pieces have to work together, but once you have the code that the Tau engine will compile, it will be a lot easier to create an efficient compiler, "A plan never survives first contact with the enemy", "Make it work, make it right, make it fast" and all that...

Also, having something to show, as slow and imperfect as it may be, would do well for getting the message out and help you raise funds. This as well as the effect on the community and helping draw smart people to be involved in the product, which I would expect to be invaluable...


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 05, 2016, 08:07:07 AM
Any news on the project?
I'm still wrapping my head around converging to the best compilation architecture for tau. It is a delicate and hard task.
BTW this is from today: http://bitcoinist.net/six-ethereum-projects-and-its-five-competitors/
You've been working on that for a long time. Have you considered working on the actual code to bootstrap Tau first, and come back to this later?

I know that when building something as complex as a new language, and pieces have to work together, but once you have the code that the Tau engine will compile, it will be a lot easier to create an efficient compiler, "A plan never survives first contact with the enemy", "Make it work, make it right, make it fast" and all that...

Also, having something to show, as slow and imperfect as it may be, would do well for getting the message out and help you raise funds. This as well as the effect on the community and helping draw smart people to be involved in the product, which I would expect to be invaluable...

I agree...


I really wish it was possible (beginning tau network without the 'best' compiler and finishing it later), and since the beginning we gave a decent thought to 'what is the bare minimum'. Obviously that'd make 'life much easier' for me.
But the execution path must be predetermined at genesis and beyond, so given a proof by one client, it can be verified by another client - at the very same proof flow. If we would give up rigid and predetermined proof flow, we won't be able to implement lambda-auth (hashing the proof tree in a way that leaves a short 'proof of correct proof' or 'proof of execution', relying on the fact that all clients have exact same flow).
So this underlying flow cannot be changed and must be finalized at the best possible performance. Which is nothing but the compilation architecture.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: redfish64 on February 12, 2016, 04:32:01 PM
Any news on the project?
I'm still wrapping my head around converging to the best compilation architecture for tau. It is a delicate and hard task.
BTW this is from today: http://bitcoinist.net/six-ethereum-projects-and-its-five-competitors/
You've been working on that for a long time. Have you considered working on the actual code to bootstrap Tau first, and come back to this later?

I know that when building something as complex as a new language, and pieces have to work together, but once you have the code that the Tau engine will compile, it will be a lot easier to create an efficient compiler, "A plan never survives first contact with the enemy", "Make it work, make it right, make it fast" and all that...

Also, having something to show, as slow and imperfect as it may be, would do well for getting the message out and help you raise funds. This as well as the effect on the community and helping draw smart people to be involved in the product, which I would expect to be invaluable...

I agree...


I really wish it was possible (beginning tau network without the 'best' compiler and finishing it later), and since the beginning we gave a decent thought to 'what is the bare minimum'. Obviously that'd make 'life much easier' for me.
But the execution path must be predetermined at genesis and beyond, so given a proof by one client, it can be verified by another client - at the very same proof flow. If we would give up rigid and predetermined proof flow, we won't be able to implement lambda-auth (hashing the proof tree in a way that leaves a short 'proof of correct proof' or 'proof of execution', relying on the fact that all clients have exact same flow).
So this underlying flow cannot be changed and must be finalized at the best possible performance. Which is nothing but the compilation architecture.

But wouldn't that leave room for a test network? A test network wouldn't require the best possible performance, and the code (logic? I'm not sure what to call the stuff that makes up the Tau network) should run as is on production once you get there, right? And that way, you could assign the creation of the code running on Tau off to some other people, because it would be mostly orthogonal, isn't it? And also, people could independently try and improve your engine/create their own, since they'd have a baseline to run theirs against.



Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 12, 2016, 05:49:24 PM
Any news on the project?
I'm still wrapping my head around converging to the best compilation architecture for tau. It is a delicate and hard task.
BTW this is from today: http://bitcoinist.net/six-ethereum-projects-and-its-five-competitors/
You've been working on that for a long time. Have you considered working on the actual code to bootstrap Tau first, and come back to this later?

I know that when building something as complex as a new language, and pieces have to work together, but once you have the code that the Tau engine will compile, it will be a lot easier to create an efficient compiler, "A plan never survives first contact with the enemy", "Make it work, make it right, make it fast" and all that...

Also, having something to show, as slow and imperfect as it may be, would do well for getting the message out and help you raise funds. This as well as the effect on the community and helping draw smart people to be involved in the product, which I would expect to be invaluable...

I agree...


I really wish it was possible (beginning tau network without the 'best' compiler and finishing it later), and since the beginning we gave a decent thought to 'what is the bare minimum'. Obviously that'd make 'life much easier' for me.
But the execution path must be predetermined at genesis and beyond, so given a proof by one client, it can be verified by another client - at the very same proof flow. If we would give up rigid and predetermined proof flow, we won't be able to implement lambda-auth (hashing the proof tree in a way that leaves a short 'proof of correct proof' or 'proof of execution', relying on the fact that all clients have exact same flow).
So this underlying flow cannot be changed and must be finalized at the best possible performance. Which is nothing but the compilation architecture.

But wouldn't that leave room for a test network? A test network wouldn't require the best possible performance, and the code (logic? I'm not sure what to call the stuff that makes up the Tau network) should run as is on production once you get there, right? And that way, you could assign the creation of the code running on Tau off to some other people, because it would be mostly orthogonal, isn't it? And also, people could independently try and improve your engine/create their own, since they'd have a baseline to run theirs against.



That's true. But we don't have enough resources for that, and it's not only (or mainly) a money issue. I think that in the bottom line it'll take more time, less quality, more risk, and know-hows evaporating from the shared knowledge. Nevertheless from time to time we think about fast-implementing what we call 'naive tau' - simply tau connected to eye/cwm. It is also very interesting to do it as an experiment and see how it fails and why decidable logic is  crucial. If someone wants to get into this adventure - you have our full tech and spirit support.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: yarikss on February 19, 2016, 08:39:29 PM
how to open the wallet for this cryptocurrency


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 19, 2016, 10:15:25 PM
how to open the wallet for this cryptocurrency

Every OmniCoin wallet would do. E.g. omniwallet.org or offline wallet https://github.com/OmniLayer/omnicore
Recall that this is only an intermediate token, and will be converted to the real Agoras coins over their own (tau) chain once Agoras is ready.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: risinhigher on February 21, 2016, 01:05:16 AM
What does the presale snapshot look like now ?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 21, 2016, 06:08:05 AM
What does the presale snapshot look like now ?

Less than 2% were sold since the presale snapshot was published.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: risinhigher on February 21, 2016, 08:02:45 PM
Sorry have to ask. You said you are 4 months away about a year ago. How close are you really?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 21, 2016, 09:44:05 PM
Sorry have to ask. You said you are 4 months away about a year ago. How close are you really?


When I said 4 months a year ago was under different assumptions, but that's correct I said 'few months' several times and few months passed. The truth (that I emphasize every time) is that I really don't know. But it never looks like more than a few months of work. Reaching the desired quality is nontrivial. I can repeat in more details but please see previous comments here.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: BoscoMurray on February 21, 2016, 10:12:46 PM
When does pre-sale end?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 21, 2016, 10:19:03 PM
When does pre-sale end?

When the real coins will be ready. Means, when Agoras network begins to run with its own coins. Agoras is an application over tau, and we will begin developing it after tau is ready and stable.
Note that once the presale ends, all unsold intermediate tokens will be destroyed.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: SouthernBTC on February 23, 2016, 11:40:50 PM
What will the total supply of agoras be?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Counterfiat on February 24, 2016, 07:09:43 AM
What will the total supply of agoras be?
See here
http://www.idni.org/pre-sale

Can anyone explain how AGRS is stored/works on the omni wallet.
I have bought a Ledger HW.1 and hoping it will work with this.
Yes I am new.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on February 24, 2016, 08:17:27 AM
What will the total supply of agoras be?
See here
http://www.idni.org/pre-sale

Can anyone explain how AGRS is stored/works on the omni wallet.
I have bought a Ledger HW.1 and hoping it will work with this.
Yes I am new.

Omni works exactly like XCP (more correctly, XCP is an exact clone of mastercoin's design, now called omni).
Specifically, one can create virtual assets/coins over bitcoin's blockchain using omni's protocol.
So to accept coins all one needs is a bitcoin address, even though the coins aren't btc but omni/agrs/etc.
But to send coins or see them correctly in your wallet, you should use an omni-aware wallet that parses the btc chain according to the omni protocol.
Note that the current tokens are merely temporary and the true Agoras coins will need their own (tau) chain.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jasemoney on March 01, 2016, 11:55:58 AM
I see volume on bittrex, and action on twitter. But funding must not be coming in if the bittrex open market is trading below the offer price? also the sell wall is only 9 BTC. is that the remainder of the crowdsale? or would it be restocked if people bought through it.

also, the 3% premine. is that 3% of 42,000,000 or 3% of whatever is sold of the presale.

blog post mentions 3,000,000 sold as of mid December. 3% of 3 mil is 90k. vs 3% of 42 mil being 1.26mil.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 01, 2016, 01:48:43 PM
I see volume on bittrex, and action on twitter. But funding must not be coming in if the bittrex open market is trading below the offer price? also the sell wall is only 9 BTC. is that the remainder of the crowdsale? or would it be restocked if people bought through it.

also, the 3% premine. is that 3% of 42,000,000 or 3% of whatever is sold of the presale.

blog post mentions 3,000,000 sold as of mid December. 3% of 3 mil is 90k. vs 3% of 42 mil being 1.26mil.

The sale has began +1y ago while bittrex only a few months. Still also today most of the buyers buy directly from me (in almost all cases: since they want large amounts or to use paypal).
Indeed only ~4M tokens were sold so far.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jasemoney on March 01, 2016, 05:37:29 PM
I see volume on bittrex, and action on twitter. But funding must not be coming in if the bittrex open market is trading below the offer price? also the sell wall is only 9 BTC. is that the remainder of the crowdsale? or would it be restocked if people bought through it.

also, the 3% premine. is that 3% of 42,000,000 or 3% of whatever is sold of the presale.

blog post mentions 3,000,000 sold as of mid December. 3% of 3 mil is 90k. vs 3% of 42 mil being 1.26mil.

The sale has began +1y ago while bittrex only a few months. Still also today most of the buyers buy directly from me (in almost all cases: since they want large amounts or to use paypal).
Indeed only ~4M tokens were sold so far.
Sale goes until a network is ready correct? And would you be taking 3% of 42 million tokens or 3% of whatever is sold?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 01, 2016, 05:40:39 PM
I see volume on bittrex, and action on twitter. But funding must not be coming in if the bittrex open market is trading below the offer price? also the sell wall is only 9 BTC. is that the remainder of the crowdsale? or would it be restocked if people bought through it.

also, the 3% premine. is that 3% of 42,000,000 or 3% of whatever is sold of the presale.

blog post mentions 3,000,000 sold as of mid December. 3% of 3 mil is 90k. vs 3% of 42 mil being 1.26mil.

The sale has began +1y ago while bittrex only a few months. Still also today most of the buyers buy directly from me (in almost all cases: since they want large amounts or to use paypal).
Indeed only ~4M tokens were sold so far.
Sale goes until a network is ready correct? And would you be taking 3% of 42 million tokens or 3% of whatever is sold?

right


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: BoscoMurray on March 01, 2016, 07:10:16 PM
I see volume on bittrex, and action on twitter. But funding must not be coming in if the bittrex open market is trading below the offer price? also the sell wall is only 9 BTC. is that the remainder of the crowdsale? or would it be restocked if people bought through it.

also, the 3% premine. is that 3% of 42,000,000 or 3% of whatever is sold of the presale.

blog post mentions 3,000,000 sold as of mid December. 3% of 3 mil is 90k. vs 3% of 42 mil being 1.26mil.

The sale has began +1y ago while bittrex only a few months. Still also today most of the buyers buy directly from me (in almost all cases: since they want large amounts or to use paypal).
Indeed only ~4M tokens were sold so far.
Sale goes until a network is ready correct? And would you be taking 3% of 42 million tokens or 3% of whatever is sold?

right

:)
which is it?
3% of 42 million tokens?
or 3% of whatever is sold?

Interesting project by the way. I expect this will do well.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 01, 2016, 07:15:20 PM
I see volume on bittrex, and action on twitter. But funding must not be coming in if the bittrex open market is trading below the offer price? also the sell wall is only 9 BTC. is that the remainder of the crowdsale? or would it be restocked if people bought through it.

also, the 3% premine. is that 3% of 42,000,000 or 3% of whatever is sold of the presale.

blog post mentions 3,000,000 sold as of mid December. 3% of 3 mil is 90k. vs 3% of 42 mil being 1.26mil.

The sale has began +1y ago while bittrex only a few months. Still also today most of the buyers buy directly from me (in almost all cases: since they want large amounts or to use paypal).
Indeed only ~4M tokens were sold so far.
Sale goes until a network is ready correct? And would you be taking 3% of 42 million tokens or 3% of whatever is sold?

right

:)
which is it?
3% of 42 million tokens?
or 3% of whatever is sold?

Interesting project by the way. I expect this will do well.

oh sorry i misread: currently it's 3% out of 42M


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jasemoney on March 01, 2016, 07:57:41 PM
I see volume on bittrex, and action on twitter. But funding must not be coming in if the bittrex open market is trading below the offer price? also the sell wall is only 9 BTC. is that the remainder of the crowdsale? or would it be restocked if people bought through it.

also, the 3% premine. is that 3% of 42,000,000 or 3% of whatever is sold of the presale.

blog post mentions 3,000,000 sold as of mid December. 3% of 3 mil is 90k. vs 3% of 42 mil being 1.26mil.

The sale has began +1y ago while bittrex only a few months. Still also today most of the buyers buy directly from me (in almost all cases: since they want large amounts or to use paypal).
Indeed only ~4M tokens were sold so far.
Sale goes until a network is ready correct? And would you be taking 3% of 42 million tokens or 3% of whatever is sold?

right

:)
which is it?
3% of 42 million tokens?
or 3% of whatever is sold?

Interesting project by the way. I expect this will do well.

oh sorry i misread: currently it's 3% out of 42M
And if you sold 10mil tokens. Would be be 300,000 (3% of 10mil) or stay at 3% of 42 mil


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 01, 2016, 07:58:33 PM
I see volume on bittrex, and action on twitter. But funding must not be coming in if the bittrex open market is trading below the offer price? also the sell wall is only 9 BTC. is that the remainder of the crowdsale? or would it be restocked if people bought through it.

also, the 3% premine. is that 3% of 42,000,000 or 3% of whatever is sold of the presale.

blog post mentions 3,000,000 sold as of mid December. 3% of 3 mil is 90k. vs 3% of 42 mil being 1.26mil.

The sale has began +1y ago while bittrex only a few months. Still also today most of the buyers buy directly from me (in almost all cases: since they want large amounts or to use paypal).
Indeed only ~4M tokens were sold so far.
Sale goes until a network is ready correct? And would you be taking 3% of 42 million tokens or 3% of whatever is sold?

right

:)
which is it?
3% of 42 million tokens?
or 3% of whatever is sold?

Interesting project by the way. I expect this will do well.

oh sorry i misread: currently it's 3% out of 42M
And if you sold 10mil tokens. Would be be 300,000 (3% of 10mil) or stay at 3% of 42 mil

yes, 3% out of 42M. currently. things can be changed though but that's the max amount


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jasemoney on March 01, 2016, 10:30:29 PM
Just thinking out loud but Im sure most people would be happy to support the notion of a static 3% of whatever is sold to be given to the dev team upon completion.
ex.
1 million tokens sold = 30,000 for dev team, supply to be 1.03 million
20 million tokens sold = 600,000 for dev team, supply to be 20.6 million
etc.

;)


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 01, 2016, 10:31:46 PM
Just thinking out loud but Im sure most people would be happy to support the notion of a static 3% of whatever is sold to be given to the dev team upon completion.
ex.
1 million tokens sold = 30,000 for dev team, supply to be 1.03 million
20 million tokens sold = 600,000 for dev team, supply to be 20.6 million
etc.

;)

if the final amout sold will be low, then this will happen for sure


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jasemoney on March 01, 2016, 10:41:53 PM
thanks for the quick responses.
I used to idle in #zennet because i liked the concept. I still do though its evolution and its been a long road already. would you say theres months of work left or another year?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 01, 2016, 10:43:23 PM
thanks for the quick responses.
I used to idle in #zennet because i liked the concept. I still do though its evolution and its been a long road already. would you say theres months of work left or another year?

for tau, we're getting closer and i'd say it's months. for the final coins, i.e. agoras ready, can take a year.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: kjn311 on March 02, 2016, 11:02:13 PM
How did AGRS reach #14 market cap?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: YNWA2806 on March 03, 2016, 06:27:39 AM
I keep hearing the phrase "if not all tokens were to be sold"..where exactly one can buy Agora for money/btc other than bittrex??


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 03, 2016, 06:28:39 AM
I keep hearing the phrase "if not all tokens were to be sold"..where exactly one can buy Agora for money/btc other than bittrex??

from me directly by email ohad at idni.org


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jasemoney on March 03, 2016, 12:52:34 PM
I keep hearing the phrase "if not all tokens were to be sold"..where exactly one can buy Agora for money/btc other than bittrex??

from me directly by email ohad at idni.org
This is written up on indi.org on the presale page.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: zeca pagodinho on March 03, 2016, 01:26:14 PM

Hello Ohad!
After taking a look at the information about your project I got some doubts:
This is a super decentralized computer?
Artificial intelligence?
A new network of decentralized internet?
Or is it all together and mixed?
I'm sorry, the question is that I am a layman, and the information is in a very complex level.
Thanks in advance for your attention and success in this endeavor!  :D


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 03, 2016, 02:56:21 PM

Hello Ohad!
After taking a look at the information about your project I got some doubts:
This is a super decentralized computer?
Artificial intelligence?
A new network of decentralized internet?
Or is it all together and mixed?
I'm sorry, the question is that I am a layman, and the information is in a very complex level.
Thanks in advance for your attention and success in this endeavor!  :D

It can be all of them. Tau is a general-purpose programming language, enabled with built-in blockchain and using a special kind of logic.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Pofick on March 07, 2016, 12:29:53 PM
Where can I find a rich list of AGRS token holders? I mean distribution of tokens among wallets. I want to see how much it is centralized in that terms.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Perancho on March 07, 2016, 01:12:48 PM
Hello,

How is it possible to write code into Tau chain?
What language would it be? is it JS?
Is there any documentation where I can find that info?
I am really interested in programming into this chain,
Please let me know how to do so,

Thanks!


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: kjn311 on March 07, 2016, 06:46:12 PM
What was the reason for Tau-Chain not having a coin? How will it be decentralized?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2016, 12:52:38 AM
Where can I find a rich list of AGRS token holders? I mean distribution of tokens among wallets. I want to see how much it is centralized in that terms.

on every omni block explorer (e.g. omnichest), asset id is 35.
also on bittrex it shows distribution among their account owners.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2016, 12:54:08 AM
Hello,

How is it possible to write code into Tau chain?
What language would it be? is it JS?
Is there any documentation where I can find that info?
I am really interested in programming into this chain,
Please let me know how to do so,

Thanks!

the language is RDF language family. a good intro is https://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/Primer.html
but those languages, as well as js, are Turing complete, which is bad at the scope of decentralized apps (and even beyond).
we give them a different type-system (logic) that makes it consistent, which is good, and enables tau's far-reaching abilities.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2016, 12:55:14 AM
What was the reason for Tau-Chain not having a coin? How will it be decentralized?

Tau as for itself doesn't need a coin. it is a programming language having a built-in root blockchain, so coins can be created over it.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 08, 2016, 10:40:21 AM
Somehow I didn't get it.
So far you comunicate this, correct me, if I am wrong:
You are selling the 42000000 coins to a certain point and then the rest of it will "burned".

But when is that point? How much percentage will an investor get? This feels so insecure...

No offense, but we are in a "decentralized" environment, where you don't just trust.
And to help you see it suspect:
If you didn't release for years you could sell and sell forever without delivering. This is comparable with a IPO of 5+ Million atm. With only a promise...


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2016, 11:09:49 AM
Somehow I didn't get it.
So far you comunicate this, correct me, if I am wrong:
You are selling the 42000000 coins to a certain point and then the rest of it will "burned".

But when is that point? How much percentage will an investor get? This feels so insecure...

No offense, but we are in a "decentralized" environment, where you don't just trust.
And to help you see it suspect:
If you didn't release for years you could sell and sell forever without delivering. This is comparable with a IPO of 5+ Million atm. With only a promise...


I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to.
If someone bought 1% out of 42M tokens, and we sell only half of the tokens and destroy the other half, then that buyer will hold 2% of total coins after the destruction. So investors know how much they get. The only 'bad' part is that they can get even more.
Predicting when exactly the product will be ready is beyond my abilities. Some scammers, though, are very good in naming dates ;)
How else can we do it better? Please tell.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 08, 2016, 11:40:17 AM
I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to.
If someone bought 1% out of 42M tokens, and we sell only half of the tokens and destroy the other half, then that buyer will hold 2% of total coins after the destruction. So investors know how much they get. The only 'bad' part is that they can get even more.
Predicting when exactly the product will be ready is beyond my abilities. Some scammers, though, are very good in naming dates ;)
How else can we do it better? Please tell.

If you want to talk about scamming: What exactly proofs, that you are not scamming? No date is definitely worse than miscalculating and postponing...

First: There is no need to predict precise release dates, but at least a deadline, where you can be sure, you can deliver "something". And you can set the deadline with a worst case prediction as well.
But even, if you can't make ANY estimate:
There is absolutely no need for the IPO deadline to be at release. Trading the tokens is still possible, so anyone can jump in later.

In the current constellation you have all the cards in your hand (up to 5 million dollar and then still 3%), have no need to do good, no need to hurry, no need even to deliver at all, no need to ... whatever.
We can just sit and wait. And before release our funds are locked with no (or a ridiculous) ROI.

If you ended the IPO and got your percentage, we could be sure, you have to do something and do it good, because your percentage is depending on what you do. The market can choose its own market cap. (Now you choose it more or less, because its too high for a promise).

And just to make you understand, that I really like to grant you a lot of money for your work:
I think 3% is way to less. Maintenance and marketing has to be done by you also after release. Otherwise everything will just die...
But your amount should depend on your doings, not on your promises...


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lujunqing7890 on March 08, 2016, 12:11:49 PM
I think the team of 3% is too little, if IPO issued 420,000 hands team should take 420 000, the total number of 840,000. There must be a long-term development.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2016, 12:25:55 PM
I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to.
If someone bought 1% out of 42M tokens, and we sell only half of the tokens and destroy the other half, then that buyer will hold 2% of total coins after the destruction. So investors know how much they get. The only 'bad' part is that they can get even more.
Predicting when exactly the product will be ready is beyond my abilities. Some scammers, though, are very good in naming dates ;)
How else can we do it better? Please tell.

If you want to talk about scamming: What exactly proofs, that you are not scamming? No date is definitely worse than miscalculating and postponing...

First: There is no need to predict precise release dates, but at least a deadline, where you can be sure, you can deliver "something". And you can set the deadline with a worst case prediction as well.
But even, if you can't make ANY estimate:
There is absolutely no need for the IPO deadline to be at release. Trading the tokens is still possible, so anyone can jump in later.

In the current constellation you have all the cards in your hand (up to 5 million dollar and then still 3%), have no need to do good, no need to hurry, no need even to deliver at all, no need to ... whatever.
We can just sit and wait. And before release our funds are locked with no (or a ridiculous) ROI.

If you ended the IPO and got your percentage, we could be sure, you have to do something and do it good, because your percentage is depending on what you do. The market can choose its own market cap. (Now you choose it more or less, because its too high for a promise).

And just to make you understand, that I really like to grant you a lot of money for your work:
I think 3% is way to less. Maintenance and marketing has to be done by you also after release. Otherwise everything will just die...
But your amount should depend on your doings, not on your promises...

I did give rough estimations several times ("few months" for tau and ~1y for end of presale and agoras ready).
Also consider that a rigid deadline for the sale, as well as finishing the product as quickly as possible, isn't necessarily good for buyers. Tau's success depends not only in doing a perfect dev before genesis, but also in the dev after genesis, which will be done by the first users (cf. http://www.idni.org/blog/decentralized-democracy) and as more aware participants we'll have there, the more the probability to get better rules of the network to the long run (taking into account that tau will help us to "do order" among all opinions etc. as it is a platform for collaborative dev).
I did give a legal promise to deliver the promised products no matter what, so "not delivering at all" as you mentioned is not an option that I left opened.
Buyer's funds aren't locked by any means. People can liquidate on bittrex (poloniex too soon), indeed low volumes for now, but I guess it'll get more attention with time. We're working on a new website and another new videos, and obviously the crowd out there only begins to understand what it's all about, but there's still a way.
My need to "do good, hurry, deliver" etc. is way beyond even what I promised: my whole reputation as a dev is on that. I can't allow myself to publicly turn into the worst dev ever..
I have a clear incentive to give things the best possible timing. I want the network and its value to grow exactly as the buyers want.
As for proofs I'm not scamming, name it. Which additional proofs can I bring?
As for IPO deadlines, we do want people to have some kind of incentive to buy early, don't we? After Agoras will be ready, it will have the value of the real goods it offers (programmers, servers etc) and not only "value of belief" as in btc for example.

As for 3% being too little, see a few comments above, if we won't sell all coins then we'll practically have more than 3%. Of course it all has to make sense, and we'll reassess the situation in a later stage (later than when tau is ready, still before agoras is ready). Nevertheless, offering a currency with an intrinsic value of markets with skyrocketing demand and size of trillions (as two examples: code-for-money and rent hw) and offering the best alternative by far than any existing alternative, 3% might be a terribly high number.
All in all, those considerations also has to take into account the specific nature of developing tau&agoras after their first version. We develop them altogether and we'll have the code reuse and code-for-money abilities, to mention only two. Also adding/modifying rules is so much easier than with other languages. So I really think that when looking at the big picture, things aren't tuned so bad.

Will be glad for more thoughts/questions.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2016, 12:27:54 PM
by the way, as many can testify, if you raise an idea which I find good, I never hesitate changing the plans right away in order to do the right thing.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 08, 2016, 12:33:04 PM
I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to.
If someone bought 1% out of 42M tokens, and we sell only half of the tokens and destroy the other half, then that buyer will hold 2% of total coins after the destruction. So investors know how much they get. The only 'bad' part is that they can get even more.
Predicting when exactly the product will be ready is beyond my abilities. Some scammers, though, are very good in naming dates ;)
How else can we do it better? Please tell.

If you want to talk about scamming: What exactly proofs, that you are not scamming? No date is definitely worse than miscalculating and postponing...

First: There is no need to predict precise release dates, but at least a deadline, where you can be sure, you can deliver "something". And you can set the deadline with a worst case prediction as well.
But even, if you can't make ANY estimate:
There is absolutely no need for the IPO deadline to be at release. Trading the tokens is still possible, so anyone can jump in later.

In the current constellation you have all the cards in your hand (up to 5 million dollar and then still 3%), have no need to do good, no need to hurry, no need even to deliver at all, no need to ... whatever.
We can just sit and wait. And before release our funds are locked with no (or a ridiculous) ROI.

If you ended the IPO and got your percentage, we could be sure, you have to do something and do it good, because your percentage is depending on what you do. The market can choose its own market cap. (Now you choose it more or less, because its too high for a promise).

And just to make you understand, that I really like to grant you a lot of money for your work:
I think 3% is way to less. Maintenance and marketing has to be done by you also after release. Otherwise everything will just die...
But your amount should depend on your doings, not on your promises...

I did give rough estimations several times ("few months" for tau and ~1y for end of presale and agoras ready).
Also consider that a rigid deadline for the sale, as well as finishing the product as quickly as possible, isn't necessarily good for buyers. Tau's success depends not only in doing a perfect dev before genesis, but also in the dev after genesis, which will be done by the first users (cf. http://www.idni.org/blog/decentralized-democracy) and as more aware participants we'll have there, the more the probability to get better rules of the network to the long run (taking into account that tau will help us to "do order" among all opinions etc. as it is a platform for collaborative dev).
I did give a legal promise to deliver the promised products no matter what, so "not delivering at all" as you mentioned is not an option that I left opened.
Buyer's funds aren't locked by any means. People can liquidate on bittrex (poloniex too soon), indeed low volumes for now, but I guess it'll get more attention with time. We're working on a new website and another new videos, and obviously the crowd out there only begins to understand what it's all about, but there's still a way.
My need to "do good, hurry, deliver" etc. is way beyond even what I promised: my whole reputation as a dev is on that. I can't allow myself to publicly turn into the worst dev ever..
I have a clear incentive to give things the best possible timing. I want the network and its value to grow exactly as the buyers want.
As for proofs I'm not scamming, name it. Which additional proofs can I bring?
As for IPO deadlines, we do want people to have some kind of incentive to buy early, don't we? After Agoras will be ready, it will have the value of the real goods it offers (programmers, servers etc) and not only "value of belief" as in btc for example.

As for 3% being too little, see a few comments above, if we won't sell all coins then we'll practically have more than 3%. Of course it all has to make sense, and we'll reassess the situation in a later stage (later than when tau is ready, still before agoras is ready). Nevertheless, offering a currency with an intrinsic value of markets with skyrocketing demand and size of trillions (as two examples: code-for-money and rent hw) and offering the best alternative by far than any existing alternative, 3% might be a terribly high number.
All in all, those considerations also has to take into account the specific nature of developing tau&agoras after their first version. We develop them altogether and we'll have the code reuse and code-for-money abilities, to mention only two. Also adding/modifying rules is so much easier than with other languages. So I really think that when looking at the big picture, things aren't tuned so bad.

Will be glad for more thoughts/questions.

1 year IPO? I am out...


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2016, 12:34:42 PM
1 year IPO? I am out...

only now one can buy in ridiculous prices. the current price won't stay for long. especially after tau is ready


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 08, 2016, 12:39:00 PM
1 year IPO? I am out...

only now one can buy in ridiculous prices. the current price won't stay for long. especially after tau is ready

These "ridculous prices" have a 5 million market cap for a theory. The prices stayed like this for months already. If any interest in the project came, you would flood the market with your coins, that you still have. There is no, i repeat NO use, to invest now.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2016, 12:40:24 PM
1 year IPO? I am out...

only now one can buy in ridiculous prices. the current price won't stay for long. especially after tau is ready

These "ridculous prices" have a 5 million market cap for a theory. The prices stayed like this for months already. If any interest in the project would come, you would flood the market with your coins, that you still have. There is no, i repeat NO use, to invest now.

the price went up 70% since the public sale began.
and when tau will be ready, things will be very different.
and, 5M is indeed a ridiculous pricing for 100% of future coins.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 08, 2016, 12:45:29 PM
... 5M is indeed a ridiculous pricing for 100% of future coins.

100%? Do you think others will sleep the next year? you can be glad, if you can catch up with others then...

and. the 70% raise comes from BTC raise. It means nothing...


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2016, 12:47:21 PM
... 5M is indeed a ridiculous pricing for 100% of future coins.

100%? Do you think others will sleep the next year? you can be glad, if you can catch up with others then...

and. the 70% raise comes from BTC raise. It means nothing...

why do you keep saying things without checking?
the price was always in USD and not in BTC. began in 10 cent, now 17


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 08, 2016, 12:53:20 PM
... 5M is indeed a ridiculous pricing for 100% of future coins.

100%? Do you think others will sleep the next year? you can be glad, if you can catch up with others then...

and. the 70% raise comes from BTC raise. It means nothing...

why do you keep saying things without checking?
the price was always in USD and not in BTC. began in 10 cent, now 17

The whole Crypto market gained the last months. There is nothing you can be proud of. If the market went down, your asset also would crash. Maybe you should research a little about markets in general... if stocks go up, nearly all go up...


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2016, 12:55:45 PM
The whole Crypto market gained the last months. There is nothing you can be proud of. If the market went down, your asset also would crash. Maybe you should research a little about markets in general... if stocks go up, nearly all go up...

I'm not speaking about the price that the market has set. I'm speaking of the price that we sell the tokens at. Which is of course the main supply.
And indeed I'll raise the price again soon. Significantly. With prior notice.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 08, 2016, 12:58:05 PM
The whole Crypto market gained the last months. There is nothing you can be proud of. If the market went down, your asset also would crash. Maybe you should research a little about markets in general... if stocks go up, nearly all go up...

I'm not speaking about the price that the market has set. I'm speaking of the price that we sell the tokens at. Which is of course the main supply.
And indeed I'll raise the price again soon. Significantly. With prior notice.

That doesn't matter, how much you raise the price. If the crypto market gets in trouble, the prices of your asset will drop, unless you don't want to set a up a buy wall...


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2016, 12:58:50 PM
The whole Crypto market gained the last months. There is nothing you can be proud of. If the market went down, your asset also would crash. Maybe you should research a little about markets in general... if stocks go up, nearly all go up...

I'm not speaking about the price that the market has set. I'm speaking of the price that we sell the tokens at. Which is of course the main supply.
And indeed I'll raise the price again soon. Significantly. With prior notice.

That doesn't matter, how much you raise the price. If the crypto market gets in trouble, the prices of your asset will drop, unless you don't want to set a up a buy wall...

last +1.5y our assets never dropped. price always went up. and it has to do with being a ridiculous price


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 08, 2016, 01:10:37 PM

last +1.5y our assets never dropped. price always went up. and it has to do with being a ridiculous price

First period noone was able to sell at all. And since its on an exchange all other prices rose way more, so it came along very easily.
If you don't come out with any product or marketing campaign, it will drop at some point. And you are not able to prevent that without setting a buy wall.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2016, 01:11:52 PM

last +1.5y our assets never dropped. price always went up. and it has to do with being a ridiculous price

First period noone was able to sell at all. And since its on an exchange all other prices rose way more, so it came along very easily.
If you don't come out with any product or marketing campaign, it will drop at some point. And you are not able to prevent that without setting a buy wall.

very little coins were sold on the exchange. the exchange is mainly for buyers to have some liquidity (and as you can see, they HODL). people still prefer to buy directly from me.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 08, 2016, 01:29:16 PM

last +1.5y our assets never dropped. price always went up. and it has to do with being a ridiculous price

First period noone was able to sell at all. And since its on an exchange all other prices rose way more, so it came along very easily.
If you don't come out with any product or marketing campaign, it will drop at some point. And you are not able to prevent that without setting a buy wall.

very little coins were sold on the exchange. the exchange is mainly for buyers to have some liquidity (and as you can see, they HODL). people still prefer to buy directly from me.

yes, thats exactly, why the price can still be at that range, because you did't sell much yet.
If you want to raise it, that means, the the market cap has to raise. And it won't, if there is no buy support. And buy support can come only until a certain point with promises. At some point people have enough...
And if the price on bittrex is lower, than your "private" selling price, that doesn't mean, that you don't sell cheaper on bittrex. This is again a trust force.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2016, 01:35:25 PM

yes, thats exactly, why the price can still be at that range, because you did't sell much yet.
If you want to raise it, that means, the the market cap has to raise. And it won't, if there is no buy support. And buy support can come only until a certain point with promises. At some point people have enough...
And if the price on bittrex is lower, than your "private" selling price, that doesn't mean, that you don't sell cheaper on bittrex. This is again a trust force.


there is a buy support. people don't buy on bittrex main because they want large quantities that they can't get on bittrex. you have to take into account the extremely small volumes on bittrex so they really say nothing. obviously things will be different with more and better public materials, and especially after tau is ready.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 08, 2016, 01:50:41 PM
Why don't you understand. This is crypto land and you need proofs. I am a person, that trusts really easily (until some point).
But I can show you, how this normally looks like:

there is a buy support. people don't buy on bittrex main because they want large quantities that they can't get on bittrex. you have to take into account the extremely small volumes on bittrex so they really say nothing.
Is there anything to proof that? Who proofs, that you don't say someone bought, but actually you "bought" it yourself? Do you have an overview?

obviously things will be different with more and better public materials, and especially after tau is ready.
You use the future quite often the last year. Maybe I should pray instead?

http://rlv.zcache.com/everything_will_be_alright_dont_worry_god_canvas_print-r9b01cd33698b410a9825322606ac89c3_wty_8byvr_324.jpg


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2016, 01:55:01 PM
Why don't you understand. This is crypto land and you need proofs. I am a person, that trusts really easily (until some point).
But I can show you, how this normally looks like:

there is a buy support. people don't buy on bittrex main because they want large quantities that they can't get on bittrex. you have to take into account the extremely small volumes on bittrex so they really say nothing.
Is there anything to proof that? Who proofs, that you don't say someone bought, but actually you "bought" it yourself? Do you have an overview?

obviously things will be different with more and better public materials, and especially after tau is ready.
You use the future quite often the last year. Maybe I should pray instead?

on the last year we had great advancements both in dev and in pr.
and tell me how can one prove they're not "buying from themselves". I didn't do it, but I don't see how it can be proved.
of course buyers need to have trust, but no more than any other common tech start-up, and much less than almost-all of other projects on the crypto world.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 08, 2016, 02:11:57 PM
...
But I can show you, how this normally looks like:
...

on the last year we had great advancements both in dev and in pr.
I can only see a couple of blog posts. I don't see any dev improvements and the pr is more or less poor.
But that information is fine from an investor point of view als long as there is still the IPO going on... the less the better, you understand?
But if you wan't to tell me, that you did your best already, I have to think, if you can do better, if my investment could grow (after ipo, while IPO there is no chance anyway)

and tell me how can one prove they're not "buying from themselves". I didn't do it, but I don't see how it can be proved.
of course buyers need to have trust, but no more than any other common tech start-up, and much less than almost-all of other projects on the crypto world.
The best trust you can give is a fixed amount of coins, where the investor knows, that it can gain. You talk about a premine of 3%? I tell you, you have a premine of 3% + 97%, because you sell ALL coins anyway.
You do an ipo with 5 million! How many people are working on that project? You can hire 10 high class programmers for a 5 years with that!


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2016, 02:17:03 PM
...
But I can show you, how this normally looks like:
...

on the last year we had great advancements both in dev and in pr.
I can only see a couple of blog posts. I don't see any dev improvements and the pr is more or less poor.

there is much more than blog posts. see tauchain.org for quick links. a new website is under development.
the dev can be seen on github.

Quote
But that information is fine from an investor point of view als long as there is still the IPO going on... the less the better, you understand?
But if you wan't to tell me, that you did your best already, I have to think, if you can do better, if my investment could grow (after ipo, while IPO there is no chance anyway)

and tell me how can one prove they're not "buying from themselves". I didn't do it, but I don't see how it can be proved.
of course buyers need to have trust, but no more than any other common tech start-up, and much less than almost-all of other projects on the crypto world.
The best trust you can give is a fixed amount of coins, where the investor knows, that it can gain. You talk about a premine of 3%? I tell you, you have a premine of 3% + 97%, because you sell ALL coins anyway.
You do an ipo with 5 million! How many people are working on that project? You can hire 10 high class programmers for a 5 years with that!


5 million is only a maximal amount. i don't expect to sell the whole amount but that we'll have coins to destroy.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 08, 2016, 02:20:49 PM
....

5 million is only a maximal amount. i don't expect to sell the whole amount but that we'll have coins to destroy.

From an investor point of view we are looking on an asset with a market cap of 5+ million. (just look at coinmarketcap.com)


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2016, 02:21:19 PM
....

5 million is only a maximal amount. i don't expect to sell the whole amount but that we'll have coins to destroy.

From an investor point of view we are looking on an asset with a market cap of 5+ million. (just look at coinmarketcap.com)

which is still a tiny amount!


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 08, 2016, 02:24:09 PM
....

5 million is only a maximal amount. i don't expect to sell the whole amount but that we'll have coins to destroy.

From an investor point of view we are looking on an asset with a market cap of 5+ million. (just look at coinmarketcap.com)

which is still a tiny amount!

OK, but again. How many people work on this? Even with a nobel price you don't get that amount...


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2016, 02:25:30 PM
....

5 million is only a maximal amount. i don't expect to sell the whole amount but that we'll have coins to destroy.

From an investor point of view we are looking on an asset with a market cap of 5+ million. (just look at coinmarketcap.com)

which is still a tiny amount!

OK, but again. How many people work on this? Even with a nobel price you don't get that amount...

depends how you count, say ~10


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 08, 2016, 02:30:18 PM
....

5 million is only a maximal amount. i don't expect to sell the whole amount but that we'll have coins to destroy.

From an investor point of view we are looking on an asset with a market cap of 5+ million. (just look at coinmarketcap.com)

which is still a tiny amount!

OK, but again. How many people work on this? Even with a nobel price you don't get that amount...

depends how you count, say ~10
Very concrete... and trustful
To sum it up. It looks just too greedy.
Only solution: End the IPO. Soon.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2016, 02:34:51 PM
Very concrete... and trustful
To sum it up. It looks just too greedy.
Only solution: End the IPO. Soon.

ok, I hear you (yet disagree). I'll see what others think too.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Perancho on March 08, 2016, 07:19:05 PM
Hello Ohad,

When can we see the Agoras token being traded in higher amounts than just 1 btc a day on the Bittrex exchange?

info taken from CMC (24h vol)
http://coinmarketcap.com/assets/agoras-tokens/#charts

I believe this coin *that is not a coin but more of an asset* would be way more valuable if you could just release some more quantities out there to be exchanged and not only the IPO // I think I have to agree with the guys before me when they say that the IPO should be ended soon enough,

I understand you have some targets already set up for the end of the IPO - but can't you just release some more out there?

Also - if the supply of AGRS increases, more chances would have of being included in a bigger exchange like Poloniex for example.

What if you take an amount of them and put them yourself in Bittrex at the same price that you already have set when people buy directly from you? maybe like this you can make a bigger volume of transactions per day and make the token more exposed to "the real world"

I believe this is a very good project - I want to see the TAU CHAIN up and running and start programming in it, but in the meanwhile the Agoras Tokens need more exposure to the exchanges and the market of cryptocurrencies.

That is just my point of view,
I hope my opinon helps,

BR


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 08, 2016, 07:30:47 PM
Hello Ohad,

When can we see the Agoras token being traded in higher amounts than just 1 btc a day on the Bittrex exchange?

info taken from CMC (24h vol)
http://coinmarketcap.com/assets/agoras-tokens/#charts

I believe this coin *that is not a coin but more of an asset* would be way more valuable if you could just release some more quantities out there to be exchanged and not only the IPO // I think I have to agree with the guys before me when they say that the IPO should be ended soon enough,

I understand you have some targets already set up for the end of the IPO - but can't you just release some more out there?

Also - if the supply of AGRS increases, more chances would have of being included in a bigger exchange like Poloniex for example.

What if you take an amount of them and put them yourself in Bittrex at the same price that you already have set when people buy directly from you? maybe like this you can make a bigger volume of transactions per day and make the token more exposed to "the real world"

I believe this is a very good project - I want to see the TAU CHAIN up and running and start programming in it, but in the meanwhile the Agoras Tokens need more exposure to the exchanges and the market of cryptocurrencies.

That is just my point of view,
I hope my opinon helps,

BR

Hi, the address where buyers send to is still the address published at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.msg10403838#msg10403838
As for ending the sale, it's not about a target sum, but the main time for marketing and sales and acknowledgement would be after tau is ready.
Poloniex will put our token soon, that's what they said.
As for putting our own bids on bittrex - we already do (as I said here a few times). People simply want to hold and buy in large amounts directly from me, and that's why volumes are low.




Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jasemoney on March 09, 2016, 12:30:58 AM
address is https://blockchain.info/address/1BzwxgzrdiW5Gdc3kfoUgxeHAhRjnMmrVs per http://tauchain.org/TOS.pdf for anyone looking

just wanted to add. if you wanted to raise some at a better rate than 1btc at bittrex where the daily 1btc volume isnt even hitting your selling price.. then do what MAID did with their MVP (they didnt fundraise like this but do have their systems demo out since a week ago). when codings done enough be shown off as useable make some announcement and put any unsold ico coins for sale, all of them on bittrex for a set period of time. burn anything unsold and release shortly after.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: zerowing on March 09, 2016, 12:35:30 AM
looking interesting, keep up good work!


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr.coinzy on March 09, 2016, 10:03:59 PM

I have been watching and following this project since the beginning and at NO point did I have any doubt about the future to come - this will be one of the biggest and most important projects around. a game changing project.

To the one's who have trust issues I say - do your research into this project and make your decision. If you can't trust the people behind the project (mainly Ohad) you are better off investing in something else and spare the ones who trust, the noise you produce. All you do is Fud and that is useless noise.
Is the sale taking a long time? yes (probably more than usual). Is it problematic for the buyers who invest? I don't think so, and it depends on how you view it. The fact the price is related to $ is actually a good thing in some regards.

I completely agree with Ohad that good serious dev work and honesty, is better than bullshit PR and empty promises like so many make.
 Never invest in something you are not comfortable with. this is a good general rule. another rule is - be wise and open enough to spot opportunities for the next BIG thing, as is in this case.   

By the way, current marketcap is very low to what this project offers (even at this point of progress). Some projects take less time and some take more, but only a few give something really new to the world.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: redfish64 on March 09, 2016, 11:25:06 PM
It would be nice if the dev team would consider uploading their progress to the github repository, https://github.com/naturalog/tauchain . It's been nearly four months since the source has been updated.

Also, could someone explain why the coding is being done privately now? For anyone thinking of helping out,  it makes it difficult to evaluate whether he/she the skills to do so.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 09, 2016, 11:26:18 PM
It would be nice if the dev team would consider uploading their progress to github. It's been nearly four months since the source has been updated.

Also, could someone explain why the coding is being done privately now? For anyone thinking of helping out,  it makes it difficult to evaluate whether he/she the skills to do so.


there are uploads, but not to master branch. see other branches. in fact there's a first version of a working compiler. but im working on a design which i currently believe will turn out much faster.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: redfish64 on March 09, 2016, 11:29:59 PM
It would be nice if the dev team would consider uploading their progress to github. It's been nearly four months since the source has been updated.

Also, could someone explain why the coding is being done privately now? For anyone thinking of helping out,  it makes it difficult to evaluate whether he/she the skills to do so.


there are uploads, but not to master branch. see other branches. in fact there's a first version of a working compiler. but im working on a design which i currently believe will turn out much faster.

Ah, great. Thanks


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jasemoney on March 11, 2016, 05:41:02 AM
looks like its time to resupply the ipo on bittrex sell side


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Kartaba on March 12, 2016, 12:16:03 PM
Jeezzzzz ive been waiting for Zenneth for almost 2 years now..... And now its called Agora... I knew of this but i forgot all about it. Toootally forgot jeeezzz.. i missed presale?Shit Shit....

Only at bittrex?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Foerster on March 12, 2016, 04:06:02 PM
I have been monitoring this thread almost from the beginning. First I need to apologize to Ohad for not having believed in the project.
It now looks like it's getting to places.

I would like to bring to attention the incentives that are associated with the pre-sale.
From a utility perspective, people have actually few incentives to buy tokens today, since supply is almost unlimited relative to demand (less than 4 million sold from 42 million) and they will be sold "up to Agoras' genesis" which is probably more than year away. This would make this the longest ICO ever.

People minimize their uncertainty by not buying now, since the genesis block is very far away and it's better to wait until shortly before launch. They lose nothing by this behavior since token price has been frozen and is no longer rising 2% per week. The people who have already bought tokens have no explicit incentive to spread word about the project, since this would dilute their own stake (maybe there is an incentive for people who are extremely rational and come to the conclusion that better capitalization and distribution increases the value of the project, but I would not count on this one.)

Project marketing and institutionalization are also still in their infancy and currently add not much yet in terms of reaching critical mass of awareness and the network effects associated with it. Nothing is known about other contributors than Ohad. I like the Youtube videos about Tau chain /Agoras /Zennet which did much to my understanding of the project, but they are not as professional as the videos that Ethereum did for their pre-sale (and even they did not convince me to buy into ETH ICO ;) ). The good thing is that this project has definitely more substance than semblance.

I think it's not so good to introduce a trading market (Bittrex) to the tokens while the pre-sale is still going on. There will be a equilibrium market price that has to be below the pre-sale price and  the pre-sale price itself acts as absorbing upward barrier while coins are still being sold. As more coins get available on the market, almost all transactions will take place below the barrier and fewer and fewer coins will be sold though the pre-sale. So the market results in less tokens sold though the pre-sale. I think it's better to first bring out an appealing website and marketing material to create enough awareness and only introduce a market once the pre-sale is over. Of course this is not an option now, but what can be done is publication of sufficient marketing materials and introduction of a definite time limit to the pre-sale.
 


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: freedomfighter on March 12, 2016, 06:57:25 PM
I agree with the above. Declare a final presale for 30-60 days with increased price points. Increase devs share and also use (multi sig or escrow) a share of AGRS exclusively for a marketing fund.

So say you'll have for example 10M final coins, of which 1M for devs and 0.5M for marketing. then the market will determine the rest. I believe that just like the ETH foundation that now has x64 of the pre sale value so here the 1M will be worth a lot and enough to push the projects as more independent developers come on board.

This way what ever trading in bitterx and polo will be with existing post sale coins and the market will be built with the advancement of the project to serious value in which the 1.5M dev and marketing fund will become significant even if actual agoras take another year.

see eth that took a year from presale to launch and now augur that will also take almost a year (post beta in september or so).


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: nihilnegativum on March 12, 2016, 08:21:09 PM
Guys have you been reading too much Wolfram? This is awsome.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr.coinzy on March 12, 2016, 09:48:57 PM
I think the project is going great considering the fact that it never halted and was always on a forward motion.
This is a BIG project, not something small and marginal like so many shameless examples - try to understand that and aim your expectations accordingly! It does not and should not take little time to build a grand innovative instrument!
Patience is needed and rewards will surely follow to those who are willing to wait.



Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Pofick on March 12, 2016, 11:28:54 PM
Can I withdraw my Agoras Tokens from the bittrex somehow? Just in case it would be shut down. What wallet app do I need for that?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jibble on March 12, 2016, 11:32:30 PM
Can I withdraw my Agoras Tokens from the bittrex somehow? Just in case it would be shut down. What wallet app do I need for that?

omniwallet .

it's basically a token on omni(formerly mastercoin) currently


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Pofick on March 12, 2016, 11:38:33 PM
omniwallet .
it's basically a token on omni(formerly mastercoin) currently
Thanks! Could someone give a link to a blockexplorer page with distribution of these tokens among addresses?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Foerster on March 13, 2016, 12:03:25 AM
Ohad recommended this one: http://omnichest.info/lookupsp.aspx?sp=35
However, I have not yet figured out how to view the token distribution.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 13, 2016, 09:36:36 AM
Soon I'll upload a blog post discussing the raised subjects in length (and put a link here when ready)


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Relaxedsense on March 14, 2016, 01:23:38 AM
Where can I buy coins via IPO?

Cheers


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jasemoney on March 14, 2016, 02:17:58 AM
Where can I buy coins via IPO?

Cheers

If you want to invest you should read the 1st post in the thread...


Presale
AgorasTokens (AGRS) are being traded on Bittrex https://bittrex.com/Market/Index?MarketName=BTC-AGRS
More information: http://www.idni.org/pre-sale



Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 14, 2016, 01:30:29 PM
New blogpost (including modification of sale details) http://www.idni.org/blog/projectroadmap


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr001 on March 14, 2016, 04:07:56 PM
Hi,
and what is the price now, till April 1?
But the market can overwrite this prices.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 14, 2016, 04:15:11 PM
Hi,
and what is the price now, till April 1?
But the market can overwrite this prices.

The price we sell at now is 17 cents (USD) per token


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr001 on March 14, 2016, 05:24:41 PM
Hi,
and what is the price now, till April 1?
But the market can overwrite this prices.

The price we sell at now is 17 cents (USD) per token
Do you accept BTC or Euro?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 14, 2016, 05:25:45 PM
Hi,
and what is the price now, till April 1?
But the market can overwrite this prices.

The price we sell at now is 17 cents (USD) per token
Do you accept BTC or Euro?

BTC but the price is set in USD since the beginning


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Pofick on March 14, 2016, 06:11:15 PM
omniwallet .

it's basically a token on omni(formerly mastercoin) currently

Omniwalet (https://www.omniwallet.org/about) is a browser wallet. Is there a local wallet?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 14, 2016, 06:12:09 PM
omniwallet .

it's basically a token on omni(formerly mastercoin) currently

Omniwalet (https://www.omniwallet.org/about) is a browser wallet. Is there a local wallet?

yes, omnicore http://www.omnilayer.org/


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Pofick on March 14, 2016, 06:13:30 PM
Thanks!


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: nexus20001 on March 15, 2016, 12:12:49 AM
What will be final amount of Agoras tokens 42 or 147 million (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.msg10403838#msg10403838)?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Pofick on March 15, 2016, 12:41:32 AM
What will be final amount of Agoras tokens 42 or 147 million (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.msg10403838#msg10403838)?
On the link the amount is 147 billions


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 15, 2016, 12:44:13 AM
What will be final amount of Agoras tokens 42 or 147 million (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.msg10403838#msg10403838)?
On the link the amount is 147 billions

42M is the amount of the intermediate tokens that represent 100% of future coins. 147B is the planned amount of future coins.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Hueristic on March 15, 2016, 02:38:17 AM
What will be final amount of Agoras tokens 42 or 147 million (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.msg10403838#msg10403838)?
On the link the amount is 147 billions

42M is the amount of the intermediate tokens that represent 100% of future coins. 147B is the planned amount of future coins.

So 1 of the Tokens will be worth 3500 coins correct?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 15, 2016, 02:38:56 AM
What will be final amount of Agoras tokens 42 or 147 million (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.msg10403838#msg10403838)?
On the link the amount is 147 billions

42M is the amount of the intermediate tokens that represent 100% of future coins. 147B is the planned amount of future coins.

So 1 of the Tokens will be worth 3500 coins correct?

right


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on March 15, 2016, 05:19:14 AM
@ the recent wave of posters bickering about the fund raiser:
Not every human endeavor is driven by greed.
Although it's in short supply nowadays, what you are seeing here is the footprint of purpose.
Do yourself a favor and go read carefully the Zennet thread and this thread, and in particular the dialogue between HMC and Ohad.
Once you really understand what is at stake, your only concern will be that Ohad doesn't get hit by a bus before he delivers Tau.
Everything else will come in time.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 15, 2016, 05:38:27 AM
happy to hear from you klosure


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Pofick on March 15, 2016, 08:53:39 AM
This picture increases FUD for me:

http://i9.pixs.ru/storage/2/8/8/DevTempjpg_9023840_21110288.jpg (http://pixs.ru/showimage/DevTempjpg_9023840_21110288.jpg)

Sorry for complaining :'( .


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on March 15, 2016, 09:17:14 AM
This picture increases FUD for me:
The graph on your screenshot is commit activity on master (see caption).
At the moment, most of the work is being commited to another branch.
Look at the commit history on branch univar4 and you'll see plenty of activity.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Hueristic on March 15, 2016, 06:29:21 PM
@ the recent wave of posters bickering about the fund raiser:
Not every human endeavor is driven by greed.
Although it's in short supply nowadays, what you are seeing here is the footprint of purpose.
Do yourself a favor and go read carefully the Zennet thread and this thread, and in particular the dialogue between HMC and Ohad.
Once you really understand what is at stake, your only concern will be that Ohad doesn't get hit by a bus before he delivers Tau.
Everything else will come in time.


My post was that sentiment only a bit more tactfully stated. :P


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: maco144 on March 15, 2016, 07:12:56 PM
Who else is working on this other than Ohad and HMC? This project really seems like it needs more developers. If you look at the comments throughout the thread dating back 1+ year the big work is 'only few months away from being done'.

How do you plan to beat out these projects? They arent all trying to achieve the same thing as Tau but why invest in Tau over them?
https://github.com/odipar/spread/
https://github.com/unisonweb/unison
http://ceptr.org/

Id like to put a lot of money into this as I believe in the idea but there really needs to be a team on this. I almost feel guilty writing asking for response because this is valuable time that should be used to develop.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Pofick on March 15, 2016, 07:36:09 PM
Who else is working on this other than Ohad and HMC? This project really seems like it needs more developers. If you look at the comments throughout the thread dating back 1+ year the big work is 'only few months away from being done'.

How do you plan to beat out these projects? They arent all trying to achieve the same thing as Tau but why invest in Tau over them?
https://github.com/odipar/spread/
https://github.com/unisonweb/unison
http://ceptr.org/

Id like to put a lot of money into this as I believe in the idea but there really needs to be a team on this. I almost feel guilty writing asking for response because this is valuable time that should be used to develop.

Totally agreed.
BTW, where I can find info about amount of coins which is already sold?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr001 on March 15, 2016, 09:04:36 PM
Who else is working on this other than Ohad and HMC? This project really seems like it needs more developers. If you look at the comments throughout the thread dating back 1+ year the big work is 'only few months away from being done'.

How do you plan to beat out these projects? They arent all trying to achieve the same thing as Tau but why invest in Tau over them?
https://github.com/odipar/spread/
https://github.com/unisonweb/unison
http://ceptr.org/

Id like to put a lot of money into this as I believe in the idea but there really needs to be a team on this. I almost feel guilty writing asking for response because this is valuable time that should be used to develop.
With 7 mill market cap it should be possible to get more devs.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 15, 2016, 09:24:46 PM
there are more developers, but the project will need much more developers after tau is ready. moreover, i have to write the code myself in order to fully understand it and support it over time.
maco144: the projects you mentioned doesn't seem to need someone external to beat them ;)
and yes, i thought i'd finish the compiler sooner, and it didn't happen. still, the compiler isn't really a large or too complex project. every cs student writes a compiler to a more complicated language. the difficulty on tau is that it must be perfect for genesis (can't fix bugs later as proof of execution depends on the execution path).
for the total amount sold, see "presale snapshot" in the blog. we'll have a more accurate count on the new website.
and the project doesn't have $8M or even $100K.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: maco144 on March 15, 2016, 10:44:14 PM
there are more developers, but the project will need much more developers after tau is ready. moreover, i have to write the code myself in order to fully understand it and support it over time.
maco144: the projects you mentioned doesn't seem to need someone external to beat them ;)
and yes, i thought i'll finish the compiler sooner, and it didn't happen. still, the compiler isn't really a large or too complex project. every cs student writes a compiler to a more complicated language. the difficulty on tau is that it must be perfect for genesis (can't fix bugs later as proof of execution depends on the execution path).
for the total amount sold, see "presale snapshot" in the blog. we'll have a more accurate count on the new website.
and the project doesn't have $8M or even $100K.

Thanks for responding. I understand that once Tau is completed that is the real accomplishment (and that it can be done by yourself/small team). My concern extends to two things. The first is to how critical you state the setting up of rules by the foundation users once genesis block is available, without a PR team bringing in a lot of intellectual talent, is it possible that genesis rules can be corrupted by selfish parties? I think cultivating a lot of deep thought on what you expect good genesis rules to be and fostering that discussion needs to be on the road map soon. Also, I see the time gap between Tau launch and Agoras implementation is where the team is really necessary. You have said this time period may be as long as year which seems like a huge hindrance to both development and to the investors interests. Do you have more specific ideas with what you'd do with the 2%/1% that the foundation will keep?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 15, 2016, 10:51:44 PM
there are more developers, but the project will need much more developers after tau is ready. moreover, i have to write the code myself in order to fully understand it and support it over time.
maco144: the projects you mentioned doesn't seem to need someone external to beat them ;)
and yes, i thought i'll finish the compiler sooner, and it didn't happen. still, the compiler isn't really a large or too complex project. every cs student writes a compiler to a more complicated language. the difficulty on tau is that it must be perfect for genesis (can't fix bugs later as proof of execution depends on the execution path).
for the total amount sold, see "presale snapshot" in the blog. we'll have a more accurate count on the new website.
and the project doesn't have $8M or even $100K.

Thanks for responding. I understand that once Tau is completed that is the real accomplishment (and that it can be done by yourself/small team). My concern extends to two things. The first is to how critical you state the setting up of rules by the foundation users once genesis block is available, without a PR team bringing in a lot of intellectual talent, is it possible that genesis rules can be corrupted by selfish parties? I think cultivating a lot of deep thought on what you expect good genesis rules to be and fostering that discussion needs to be on the road map soon. Also, I see the time gap between Tau launch and Agoras implementation is where the team is really necessary. You have said this time period may be as long as year which seems like a huge hindrance to both development and to the investors interests. Do you have more specific ideas with what you'd do with the 2%/1% that the foundation will keep?

there is a PR team working hard right now on new materials.
and indeed the initial tau rules may fail and we may need to restart the network. this can happen. though no loss in such case, since tau doesn't have any coin.
about publishing thoughts for what to be done after genesis - we have a principle not to do it now, as we don't want to affect or bias in any way what will happen post-genesis.
regarding specific long term dev plans, i guess replacing google, amazon, traditional dev hiring, the QA methodology, and some more published ideas are specific, long, and significant enough. besides anyone who knows me knows that we have more no-less-big plans for agoras that weren't published yet.
about the time between tau and agoras, the truth is that tau offers such a big change in how to develop software, that we don't know how things will look afterwards, but we do know that dev will get much easier over tau comparing to the traditional way.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Pofick on March 18, 2016, 07:39:43 PM
Agoras marketplace is close to Elastic project, isn't it?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1396233.0


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 18, 2016, 07:59:51 PM
Agoras marketplace is close to Elastic project, isn't it?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1396233.0

elastic is unsuccessfully trying to fulfill zennet's vision, in which we understood a year ago that ends up as a small feature in agoras


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: allwelder on March 19, 2016, 05:34:12 AM
Agoras marketplace is close to Elastic project, isn't it?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1396233.0

elastic is unsuccessfully trying to fulfill zennet's vision, in which we understood a year ago that ends up as a small feature in agoras
What about this one,seems like elastic and zennet.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1401477.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1401477.0)


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 19, 2016, 05:36:55 AM
Agoras marketplace is close to Elastic project, isn't it?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1396233.0

elastic is unsuccessfully trying to fulfill zennet's vision, in which we understood a year ago that ends up as a small feature in agoras
What about this one,seems like elastic and zennet.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1401477.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1401477.0)

looks even worse than elastic


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: allwelder on March 19, 2016, 05:48:33 AM
Agoras marketplace is close to Elastic project, isn't it?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1396233.0

elastic is unsuccessfully trying to fulfill zennet's vision, in which we understood a year ago that ends up as a small feature in agoras
What about this one,seems like elastic and zennet.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1401477.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1401477.0)

looks even worse than elastic
Another,why do you think they are just unsuccessfully trying?
They tried to realize it with a NXT style POS.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 19, 2016, 05:52:10 AM
Agoras marketplace is close to Elastic project, isn't it?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1396233.0

elastic is unsuccessfully trying to fulfill zennet's vision, in which we understood a year ago that ends up as a small feature in agoras
What about this one,seems like elastic and zennet.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1401477.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1401477.0)

looks even worse than elastic
Another,why you think unsuccessfully trying?
They tried to realize it with a NXT style POS.

elastic's under-construction design doesnt seem to converge to something that makes sense
scn doesnt seem to even have that


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: allwelder on March 19, 2016, 05:55:47 AM
Agoras marketplace is close to Elastic project, isn't it?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1396233.0

elastic is unsuccessfully trying to fulfill zennet's vision, in which we understood a year ago that ends up as a small feature in agoras
What about this one,seems like elastic and zennet.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1401477.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1401477.0)

looks even worse than elastic
Another,why you think unsuccessfully trying?
They tried to realize it with a NXT style POS.


elastic's under-construction design doesnt seem to converge to something that makes sense
scn doesnt seem to even have that
Thanks for reply.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: James_H on March 19, 2016, 02:44:16 PM
whether the currently available android wallet ?

Thanks before


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 19, 2016, 03:18:29 PM
whether the currently available android wallet ?

Thanks before

there exists this one https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.meshcollision.wallet.omnicoin
but i have no experience nor knowledge regarding it so don't take this as a recommendation


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: James_H on March 19, 2016, 05:03:48 PM
whether the currently available android wallet ?

Thanks before

there exists this one https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.meshcollision.wallet.omnicoin
but i have no experience nor knowledge regarding it so don't take this as a recommendation

Oh...thanks mate!  :)


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr001 on March 22, 2016, 08:52:17 AM
What about this project? It is similar to Ta-Chain?

https://www.bigchaindb.com/


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 22, 2016, 09:01:02 AM
What about this project? It is similar to Ta-Chain?

https://www.bigchaindb.com/

it's similar to tau's dht layer.
can be viewed as some upgraded design of storj.
yet tau is mainly about running code, rather storing and reasoning over it which are important parts as well.
tau's code is written in rdf (facts and rules) which is "the new sql", and tau's reasoner is basically querying a database. so-called "rule engine". just existing rdf rule engines don't have MLTT logic, as they're Turing complete.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 22, 2016, 09:08:19 AM
English translation of a Hebrew talk I gave on a Bitcoin conference recently https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utggm7cuGbo (enable subtitles)


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr.coinzy on March 22, 2016, 10:57:47 AM
Great lecture!


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: maco144 on March 24, 2016, 01:03:49 AM
That was indeed a fantastic lecture, thanks for posting.

Please excuse my lack of knowledge of semantic web at this point but will there be a way for developers who are familiar with other OO languages to write code into the tauchain? It seems like it would be a huge mainstream adoption hurdle to overcome if all people have to write/find in the RDF family. I understand that having provable code is the whole point of Tau and RDF allows that, I just see limitations if anyone who wants to adopt has to understand RDF to write it or create the requirements to check if it is already in the chain.

Other than dogma, is there a reason to make this a public project? What is stopping Ohad from going private with this once it gets close and keeping this incredible technology to a business of his own? I generally don't understand why this needs to have a public element to it at all other than having strong ideals.

I think Im going to gamble and invest a lot in this, the payoff is huge.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 24, 2016, 02:13:36 AM
That was indeed a fantastic lecture, thanks for posting.

Please excuse my lack of knowledge of semantic web at this point but will there be a way for developers who are familiar with other OO languages to write code into the tauchain? It seems like it would be a huge mainstream adoption hurdle to overcome if all people have to write/find in the RDF family. I understand that having provable code is the whole point of Tau and RDF allows that, I just see limitations if anyone who wants to adopt has to understand RDF to write it or create the requirements to check if it is already in the chain.

Other than dogma, is there a reason to make this a public project? What is stopping Ohad from going private with this once it gets close and keeping this incredible technology to a business of his own? I generally don't understand why this needs to have a public element to it at all other than having strong ideals.

I think Im going to gamble and invest a lot in this, the payoff is huge.

thanks, RDF doesn't have a decidable logic! it's tau's innovation to combine MLTT with RDF, which will allow provable code.
RDF is a family of languages, well known and one of the most widely used.
Tau is built in a way that it can have additional frontends, namely, every language will work as long as it is translated to triples/quads or equivalent.
the reason the project is public is that it is exactly what the project is about. it has nothing new to offer otherwise. more info is all around, but to name two posts: http://www.idni.org/blog/decentralized-democracy and www.idni.org/blog/projectroadmap


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: BoscoMurray on March 24, 2016, 08:33:40 AM
Ohad, when it comes time to create the Agoras token, would/could you consider CryptoNote? Perhaps a fork of Monero?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Pofick on March 24, 2016, 12:13:06 PM
In Ethereum they have ConseSys group which consists of startups using smart contracts to build useful Dapps (decentralized applications). It is much more easier way to show the potential of the system to ordinary users or programmers. Are there any plans to create such start-ups which will use tau?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 24, 2016, 12:15:22 PM
Ohad, when it comes time to create the Agoras token, would/could you consider CryptoNote? Perhaps a fork of Monero?

first we have to know the mining scheme on tau that will be determined by the first users. this will reflect agoras' mining scheme

why not distribute coin in ICO?


what do you mean? the coin distribution is via bittrex or email

In Ethereum they have ConseSys group which consists of startups using smart contracts to build useful Dapps (decentralized applications). It is much more easier way to show the potential of the system to ordinary users or programmers. Are there any plans to create such start-ups which will use tau?

tau is here to revolutionize the world of software development, indeed


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: BoscoMurray on March 24, 2016, 12:42:46 PM
Ohad, when it comes time to create the Agoras token, would/could you consider CryptoNote? Perhaps a fork of Monero?

first we have to know the mining scheme on tau that will be determined by the first users. this will reflect agoras' mining scheme

I might not be understanding correctly, but I did not mean the mining algorithm. I was meaning, could you use the CryptoNote protocol to provide transaction privacy? Bitcoin is transparent, and this is not good. Sorry if I am mistaken.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 24, 2016, 12:45:18 PM
Ohad, when it comes time to create the Agoras token, would/could you consider CryptoNote? Perhaps a fork of Monero?

first we have to know the mining scheme on tau that will be determined by the first users. this will reflect agoras' mining scheme

I might not be understanding correctly, but I did not mean the mining algorithm. I was meaning, could you use the CryptoNote protocol to provide transaction privacy? Bitcoin is transparent, and this is not good. Sorry if I am mistaken.

we do not plan to explicitly write this feature ourselves (though recently we had some interest in employing homomorphic encryption to the compiler's low level) but every such method could easily be implemented by the users, while fork is not necessary


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: maco144 on March 25, 2016, 04:16:57 PM
Will it be possible to use tauchain to determine when and where something on the internet was first posted? And more advance then that, the source of all new content published to the internet could essentially be indexed / found? When you say that this will complete create the next generation of search engines, I am a little unclear on what it is about this project that allows it to do so. I like to dream big, but I dont understand the mechanics behind what is possible yet.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 25, 2016, 04:24:07 PM
Will it be possible to use tauchain to determine when and where something on the internet was first posted? And more advance then that, the source of all new content published to the internet could essentially be indexed / found? When you say that this will complete create the next generation of search engines, I am a little unclear on what it is about this project that allows it to do so. I like to dream big, but I dont understand the mechanics behind what is possible yet.

indeed, storing huge amounts of data is possible on tau's dht, while it can be timestamped securely and compactly on the blockchain. this is part of how we plan to replace google. the main bottleneck in competing with google is to have 1M computers like google has. a decentralized network may grow way beyond that.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: yufu571 on March 27, 2016, 08:01:35 AM
@ohad
I have bought some Agoras Token. some questions:
1) When and how can we get real coins?
2) What is the initial price of Agoras tokens? 0.0006+BTC?
3) How many Agoras tokens were sold?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 27, 2016, 09:52:06 AM
@ohad
I have bought some Agoras Token. some questions:
1) When and how can we get real coins?
2) What is the initial price of Agoras tokens? 0.0006+BTC?
3) How many Agoras tokens were sold?

hi,

1. the real coins are (by definition) only when agoras is ready. can take ~1y. we'll make an automated process of depositing the tokens and receiving the coins.
2. the sale began with 10 cents per token (prices in USD all along)
3. about 5M


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 27, 2016, 10:44:02 AM
im removing the ask at .000465 from bittrex for a while (till Apr 1 or a few days later) in order to see how the market behaves without it


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: yufu571 on March 27, 2016, 11:43:04 AM
im removing the ask at .000465 from bittrex for a while (till Apr 1 or a few days later) in order to see how the market behaves without it
It is not wise to manipulate the price in this way. Why not sell all the tokens in ICO way before traded at exchanges?
What you are doing is leading us suspect you just want to get more BTC in a bad way. You should focus on the project more than price.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 27, 2016, 11:53:18 AM
im removing the ask at .000465 from bittrex for a while (till Apr 1 or a few days later) in order to see how the market behaves without it
It is not wise to manipulate the price in this way. Why not sell all the tokens in ICO way before traded at exchanges?
What you are doing is leading us suspect you just want to get more BTC in a bad way. You should focus on the project more than price.

such a thing has never been done before, and is done now not for manipulation purposes but since several buyers thought it'll be better this way, i agreed to make this experiment for a short while to see where the market settles. i don't believe it'll change much


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: NILIcoin on March 27, 2016, 01:32:50 PM
For all of you who may be invested in Ethereum , you should pay  close attention to what is said in this lecture while keep in mind that Etherume is Turing complete.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utggm7cuGbo&feature=youtu.be


Quote
Let us assume that we have a contract and I wish to ask – what will happen.
 Do I need to live through this contract to see what happens with it, or, can I know in advance, what will be it's outcomes.

Godel proved that if a language is rich enough to describe the arithmetics, it is complete, and can prove all the correct statements, and it can also prove all the incorrect statements, as we have just shown. If we have a language that is consistent, and can not prove statements that are incorrect, then it can not prove all statements, it is incomplete, can describe only part of the realities, not all of them.
And so, the world of mathematics, logics and philosophy where in crisis and did not know what to do in order not to be self contradictive. In the 70's till mid 80's came Martin Löf. He formalized a system for the foundations of mathematics. A logical system, that can not be called logics, because it is different. This system is consistent. I can not contradict myself with this system, and therefore, when I have a proof, I can rely on it. If I have a proof for a statement, it means that is it correct, because we can not prove incorrect statements in a consistent language.

And so, Martin Löf presented logics that is today viewed as the new basis for mathematics. It went that far as to be called the new foundation of mathematics. With this logic we can determine if a statement is true or false, including by a computer. Of course, it took time since the 80's to understand what it is all about, and until they verified Martin Löf is indeed correct. Slowly, programming languages were developed to use this trick. For example, we can mention Agda, or Idris.

In these languages we can write code, and ask what the code does, and even receive a mathematically proven answer with all the steps that led to the result. I can rely on that proof and know that it is impossible to prove an incorrect statement.
On the other hand, in Turing complete languages, which are most of the languages that are used today for programming, people do not know the concept of proof on code because it is simply not possible. In order to know if a code works, it is needed to run it. to live through it and see if it works.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr001 on March 27, 2016, 01:38:52 PM
im removing the ask at .000465 from bittrex for a while (till Apr 1 or a few days later) in order to see how the market behaves without it
It is not wise to manipulate the price in this way. Why not sell all the tokens in ICO way before traded at exchanges?
What you are doing is leading us suspect you just want to get more BTC in a bad way. You should focus on the project more than price.

such a thing has never been done before, and is done now not for manipulation purposes but since several buyers thought it'll be better this way, i agreed to make this experiment for a short while to see where the market settles. i don't believe it'll change much

hmm... it seams it will be a long time (sereral years) and risky investment for us.  :-\


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Foerster on March 28, 2016, 12:43:12 AM
Quote
it seams it will be a long time (sereral years) and risky investment for us.
This is why you might get paid big bucks at the end.

Big asymmetric payoffs were what gave people the incentive to finance the ventures of the Henry Fords, the Thomas Alva Edisons, the Christian Barnards, who produced the miracles that have benefited us all.
Of course, there were lots of losers along the way. We don't remember their names, but they went in with their eyes open, they knew what they were doing, and win or lose, we as society benefited from their willingness to take a chance.

I wouldn't worry to much about exchange price at the moment. The market isn't even close to rationalizing this thing, let alone pricing it. This is nothing more than a idea and some code on github (both of which few people are able to understand).
Also should Tau become a success it doesn't automatically mean that Agoras will.

Something different:
In one video Ohad spoke about the "rules of rule making" for the Tau chain. I think initially these rules could be kept relatively simple to ensure flexibility and fast progress and only later should interest and importance of Tau increase, more sophisticated rules of mixed government type (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_government#Modern_views) should be introduced. (I favor a mix of oligarchic, democratic and aristocratic elements).


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jasemoney on March 28, 2016, 04:29:54 AM
offtopic but:
how hard would it be to get a running tally of agoras sold vs btc raised and maybe an average buy-in price.
coinmarketcap shows 42 million (=147billion/3500)but that cant be the number of coins out in the wild. i think its skewing the marketcap is like 5 million. but the btc address from the presale shows like 200BTC this likely + whatever sold on bittrex would give an accurate marketcap


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Sam123 on March 28, 2016, 05:11:03 AM
Hi Ohad,

What is the current Price please of Agora coin when we buy it from you: Is it 17 cents or 10 Cents (US) ?
Thanks


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: caramelisedbanknote on March 28, 2016, 05:15:41 AM
when is this being created?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: maco144 on March 28, 2016, 02:43:19 PM
Hi Ohad,

What is the current Price please of Agora coin when we buy it from you: Is it 17 cents or 10 Cents (US) ?
Thanks

Current price is 17c


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: maco144 on March 28, 2016, 03:06:31 PM
when is this being created?
Its being created right now, no one other than Ohad is really sure when the first part of it (the tau chain) will be released.
http://www.idni.org/blog/projectroadmap


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: bytemuma on March 28, 2016, 04:59:12 PM
Hi Ohad,

What is the current Price please of Agora coin when we buy it from you: Is it 17 cents or 10 Cents (US) ?
Thanks

Current price is 17c

Update price is 13c

It seems that the price is falling, I think that only when we can see something of the project in particular is that the price will increase.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 29, 2016, 05:18:33 PM
Something different:
In one video Ohad spoke about the "rules of rule making" for the Tau chain. I think initially these rules could be kept relatively simple to ensure flexibility and fast progress and only later should interest and importance of Tau increase, more sophisticated rules of mixed government type (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_government#Modern_views) should be introduced. (I favor a mix of oligarchic, democratic and aristocratic elements).

this is a possibility, and is left to the first users to decide. hope to see you there! ;)

offtopic but:
how hard would it be to get a running tally of agoras sold vs btc raised and maybe an average buy-in price.
coinmarketcap shows 42 million (=147billion/3500)but that cant be the number of coins out in the wild. i think its skewing the marketcap is like 5 million. but the btc address from the presale shows like 200BTC this likely + whatever sold on bittrex would give an accurate marketcap

will be done with the new website

when is this being created?
Its being created right now, no one other than Ohad is really sure when the first part of it (the tau chain) will be released.
http://www.idni.org/blog/projectroadmap

well i wish i knew :) i can only estimate very (too) roughly

Hi Ohad,

What is the current Price please of Agora coin when we buy it from you: Is it 17 cents or 10 Cents (US) ?
Thanks

Current price is 17c

Update price is 13c

It seems that the price is falling, I think that only when we can see something of the project in particular is that the price will increase.

the price we sell at now is 17 cents. the deals on the exchange were done by previous buyers, obviously, in prices lower than the official price. indeed when people ask me how to buy i refer them to bittrex if they want to buy in low amounts, as they'll get a better price there.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Deanero on March 29, 2016, 11:14:44 PM
Hi Ohad,

I've been following this project for a while now and plan on buying some. I heard the price will increase soon. Can you specify when?

Also you say that having the coins available on bitterex is an experiment, but the price is lower than what you are selling them for. I don't think this experiment is working well for you as 1. It appears you are charging more than the market rate and 2. People who buy in large quantities should be the ones getting a better price.

I think it's in your and the projects interest to cease the bitrerex experiment as it confuses potential buyers and puts into question the pricing strategy.

Just suggestions from a potential investor.

Best of luck with the project.

I'll be investing.

Cheers :)



Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Counterfiat on March 30, 2016, 04:12:22 AM
Look at the liquidity on bittrex, and judge how relevant the 'price' of this market is atm.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 30, 2016, 06:19:34 AM
Hi Ohad,

I've been following this project for a while now and plan on buying some. I heard the price will increase soon. Can you specify when?

Also you say that having the coins available on bitterex is an experiment, but the price is lower than what you are selling them for. I don't think this experiment is working well for you as 1. It appears you are charging more than the market rate and 2. People who buy in large quantities should be the ones getting a better price.

I think it's in your and the projects interest to cease the bitrerex experiment as it confuses potential buyers and puts into question the pricing strategy.

Just suggestions from a potential investor.

Best of luck with the project.

I'll be investing.

Cheers :)



please have a look at the last blogpost www.idni.org/blog/projectroadmap
it refers to some of your points


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 30, 2016, 01:48:13 PM
most chances that the token will enter into Poloniex today, as we began speaking about it today and agreed very quickly. i'll keep posting here with progress. the number of tokens to be transferred there is 21M, while they'll destroy all unsold tokens.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: bytemuma on March 30, 2016, 02:45:08 PM
most chances that the token will enter into Poloniex today, as we began speaking about it today and agreed very quickly. i'll keep posting here with progress. the number of tokens to be transferred there is 21M, while they'll destroy all unsold tokens.

What is gonna be the price that they sell the tokens, is the 17 cents or some other way /price?

Thanks.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 30, 2016, 02:46:03 PM
most chances that the token will enter into Poloniex today, as we began speaking about it today and agreed very quickly. i'll keep posting here with progress. the number of tokens to be transferred there is 21M, while they'll destroy all unsold tokens.

What is gonna be the price that they sell the tokens, is the 17 cents or some other way /price?

Thanks.

yes, and 20 cent in Apr 1, with +5% monthly, as planned.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: bytemuma on March 30, 2016, 02:54:20 PM
most chances that the token will enter into Poloniex today, as we began speaking about it today and agreed very quickly. i'll keep posting here with progress. the number of tokens to be transferred there is 21M, while they'll destroy all unsold tokens.

What is gonna be the price that they sell the tokens, is the 17 cents or some other way /price?

Thanks.

yes, and 20 cent in Apr 1, with +5% monthly, as planned.

I own a small amount of AGRS, I think this project is very interesting and i follow this topic since the beginning, but for now, its only one idea. I have no doubt if you can build TAU to do what you say it's going to change a lot of things.

I wish you the best.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 30, 2016, 02:57:32 PM
most chances that the token will enter into Poloniex today, as we began speaking about it today and agreed very quickly. i'll keep posting here with progress. the number of tokens to be transferred there is 21M, while they'll destroy all unsold tokens.

What is gonna be the price that they sell the tokens, is the 17 cents or some other way /price?

Thanks.

yes, and 20 cent in Apr 1, with +5% monthly, as planned.

I own a small amount of AGRS, I think this project is very interesting and i follow this topic since the beginning, but for now, its only one idea. I have no doubt if you can build TAU to do what you say it's going to change a lot of things.

I wish you the best.

thanks you very much.
just i have to mention that it's not only an idea but a lot of working code is ready. but offers basically nothing beyond existing rdf reasoners for now.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: EuZeN on March 30, 2016, 08:37:30 PM
rising nicely lot of volume coming in :)


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 30, 2016, 09:08:41 PM
the poloniex thing was a scam :(
someone impostered to Tristan.
i just found out about it.
we're now discussing what to do.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 30, 2016, 09:10:38 PM
i sent the scammer 21M tokens. can track them via the explorer. the scammer's address is 18iQ48Fnr8NMDLZHSem5UXXoCPXg1RAq2x


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 30, 2016, 09:12:18 PM
i will ask bittrex to suspend the trade for now


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 30, 2016, 09:14:27 PM
they did it. took then 1 sec. amazing. thanks bittrex!
now we know which tokens are fraudent.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 30, 2016, 09:18:59 PM
ok we can do the foillowing:
create a new token and send it automatically to all addresses, exactly same amount, except the scammer's address.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: smaragda on March 30, 2016, 09:23:36 PM
ok we can do the foillowing:
create a new token and send it automatically to all addresses, exactly same amount, except the scammer's address.

Sounds good!   :)

...what a bunch of scamming fuckers...


Edit:  Did the scammer move, sell, etc. 500k?   :-\


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ?chooseusername on March 30, 2016, 09:30:32 PM
Now it makes sense... the scammer wiped bittrex bids book

Edit: which is 70.83151993 BTC


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: CrimBit on March 30, 2016, 09:34:59 PM
i cant close buy order  :-\


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 30, 2016, 09:37:14 PM
ok we can do the foillowing:
create a new token and send it automatically to all addresses, exactly same amount, except the scammer's address.

Sounds good!   :)

...what a bunch of scamming fuckers...


Edit:  Did the scammer move, sell, etc. 500k?   :-\

yes, 500K moved to bittrex (confirmed with bittrex)


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 30, 2016, 09:38:17 PM
im now online with omni devs to distribute a new token asap and get things back as usual
the blocked address will be the one with the 20.5M, as the buyers on bittrex did nothing wrong


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: smaragda on March 30, 2016, 09:38:25 PM
Now it makes sense... the scammer wiped bittrex bids book

Edit: which is 70.83151993 BTC

I wonder if Bittrex was notified before or after the dreaded withdrawal...   oh boy...   >:(


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ?chooseusername on March 30, 2016, 09:48:53 PM
im now online with omni devs to distribute a new token asap and get things back as usual
the blocked address will be the one with the 20.5M, as the buyers on bittrex did nothing wrong
Is it posible to check the IP address of the buyers that got the tokens really cheap? how do we know it wasn't the same person? having 2 bittrex accounts is no rocket science. If he used a vpn I'm not sure if there is anything else to do.
I was watching the bids book and it was changing very quickly with bids below 400 satoshis... that's not normal

Edit: In this case, TAU's low volume helped... 500k is better than 20M


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 30, 2016, 10:22:22 PM
will be glad for suggestions for a new token name, so people will distinguish it from the old token as easily as possible


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jasemoney on March 30, 2016, 10:27:08 PM
this is nutty. sorry you got swindled, i remember the irc scammer last year got a lot of people. 500k tokens is a lot added to the existing supply thats tradeable. im guessing people who had walls under 10k will likely move out quickly once the new coin with these balances is released. great solution though and quick action.

im all for the balances staying form the 500k, assuming the scammer didnt self buy a few hundred k at 200 satoshi.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Elokane on March 30, 2016, 10:35:53 PM
Hey all! I'm the lucky buyer of the vast majority of the 500k. I just caught it on my AGRS Bittrex tab and immediately sent a happy message to Ohad. :)

03/30/2016 23:47:00   03/14/2016 17:25:40   Limit Buy   0.00011581   14860.70417639   14860.70417639   0.00011580   -1.72532069
03/30/2016 23:46:59   03/17/2016 20:05:02   Limit Buy   0.00020140   14858.49056604   14858.49056604   0.00020139   -2.99998125

03/30/2016 11:46:37 PM   
SELL
0.00000212   406759.55205231   0.86233025 [this one is incomplete.]

I'm an early investor and a friend of Ohad's. I've been holding my coins for well over a year now, and I can assure you these new coins in my possession aren't going to leave my hands any time soon. So this is a nice gift for me, and you can rest assured that once Ohad solves this by issuing the new token, the market will be unaffected.

This is all un-provable, of course. I suppose I can take a video of me taking out the rest of the bid at 212 once trading resumes while a few witnesses are watching. Let me know if ya'll care for me to do that.

Cheers


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr.coinzy on March 30, 2016, 10:46:53 PM
Hey all! I'm the lucky buyer of the vast majority of the 500k. I just caught it on my AGRS Bittrex tab and immediately sent a happy message to Ohad. :)

03/30/2016 23:47:00   03/14/2016 17:25:40   Limit Buy   0.00011581   14860.70417639   14860.70417639   0.00011580   -1.72532069
03/30/2016 23:46:59   03/17/2016 20:05:02   Limit Buy   0.00020140   14858.49056604   14858.49056604   0.00020139   -2.99998125

03/30/2016 11:46:37 PM   
SELL
0.00000212   406759.55205231   0.86233025 [this one is incomplete.]

I'm an early investor and a friend of Ohad's. I've been holding my coins for well over a year now, and I can assure you these new coins in my possession aren't going to leave my hands any time soon. So this is a nice gift for me, and you can rest assured that once Ohad solves this by issuing the new token, the market will be unaffected.

This is all un-provable, of course. I suppose I can take a video of me taking out the rest of the bid at 212 once trading resumes while a few witnesses are watching. Let me know if ya'll care for me to do that.

Cheers




It is a good thing you contacted Ohad and it is much appreciated.
Nevertheless, I do have to say that the most honorable and decent thing to do would be to return the stolen coins you purchased for a full refund of your money. That is what I would do anyway (but that's only me...).


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: smaragda on March 30, 2016, 10:47:06 PM
03/30/2016 23:47:00   03/14/2016 17:25:40   Limit Buy   0.00011581   14860.70417639   14860.70417639   0.00011580   -1.72532069
03/30/2016 23:46:59   03/17/2016 20:05:02   Limit Buy   0.00020140   14858.49056604   14858.49056604   0.00020139   -2.99998125

03/30/2016 11:46:37 PM   
SELL
0.00000212   406759.55205231   0.86233025 [this one is incomplete.]

Isn't that only ~30k out of the 500k?  Or am I reading your post wrong?   :-\

I guess incomplete means that most of it actually went through; I read it wrong the first time around.


Edit:  Sorry to say, but you probably didn't do your friend a favor by coming forward; this might end bad.  We're talking about an astronomical amount of tokens & price difference here while the presale is ongoing.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr.coinzy on March 30, 2016, 11:09:18 PM
When you know (and you know) that you purchased something that was stolen, and you even know who it was stolen from (he is your friend?), the ONLY honorable thing would be to return it. In this case, it would even be without you losing a thing, because you would get your money back in full.
Doesn't matter how you twist it, that is the ONLY way to show you are not just taking advantage of this whole criminal ordeal.

 


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: raithe on March 31, 2016, 12:16:03 AM
most chances that the token will enter into Poloniex today, as we began speaking about it today and agreed very quickly. i'll keep posting here with progress. the number of tokens to be transferred there is 21M, while they'll destroy all unsold tokens.

http://i.imgur.com/zapkl8y.png


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Xaltotun on March 31, 2016, 12:30:06 AM
Wow, wtf happened here?  :o


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Foerster on March 31, 2016, 12:38:23 AM
Imho all transactions with the stolen tokens should be voided.
Bittrex is definitely able to provide a detailed trade history.
It's like a thief stole bunch of limited collectors watches from a watch store, hastily selling them for cheap and the buyer says: "I can assure these new watches in my possession aren't going to leave my hands any time soon. So this is a nice gift for me, and you can rest assured that the collectors market will be unaffected."
The only problem is that the watches (Tokens) are still property of the watch store (Agoras devs).

I am also disappointed that they fell for such a scam. It highlights once more the weaknesses of the current organisational setup and business end of Agoras. The good thing is that the scam was early in the lifetime of Agoras, so it's impact can be unscrambled relatively easy. There's no telling what would have happened if such a thing took place later with actual trade volume and thousands of transactions outside the exchanges. One should keep in mind that scams and security breaches are the number one killer for crypto currency projects.

As part of my due diligence on Agoras, I wrote to Poloniex two weeks ago asking them if there had been any communication whatsoever taken place between Poloniex and the developers of Agoras or any other affiliated person.
Quote
Mar 21
Thank you for contacting us about your request and do apologize for the delayed reply. You can request a coin to be added to trading at https://poloniex.com/coinRequest. Fill that out there and it will be reviewed; coins are reviewed on an ongoing basis once added to the request page. It is not voting so multiple requests will be ignored, there would not be any contact to the poster nor the dev team if the coin would be added or not. We thank you for your submission.

Best regards,
Maurice
Poloniex Support
This was actually the only red flag coming up and I didn't pay much attention to it, since all the other stuff I checked turned out to be true and made sense.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: NILIcoin on March 31, 2016, 12:51:23 AM
Imho all transactions with the stolen tokens should be voided.
Bittrex is definitely able to provide a detailed trade history.
It's like some thief stole bunch of rare collectors watches, hastily selling them for cheap and the buyer says: "I can assure these new watches in my possession aren't going to leave my hands any time soon. So this is a nice gift for me, and you can rest assured that the collectors market will be unaffected."


Actually since we are talking about tokens that are going to be replaced, and not a stolen product with a market value all that need to be done is give the legal owner of the stolen coins (those who got it on bitrex)  only the numbers of new tokens which match the market price before the scam.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: NILIcoin on March 31, 2016, 01:00:06 AM
Hey all! I'm the lucky buyer of the vast majority of the 500k. I just caught it on my AGRS Bittrex tab and immediately sent a happy message to Ohad. :)

03/30/2016 23:47:00   03/14/2016 17:25:40   Limit Buy   0.00011581   14860.70417639   14860.70417639   0.00011580   -1.72532069
03/30/2016 23:46:59   03/17/2016 20:05:02   Limit Buy   0.00020140   14858.49056604   14858.49056604   0.00020139   -2.99998125

03/30/2016 11:46:37 PM   
SELL
0.00000212   406759.55205231   0.86233025 [this one is incomplete.]

I'm an early investor and a friend of Ohad's. I've been holding my coins for well over a year now, and I can assure you these new coins in my possession aren't going to leave my hands any time soon. So this is a nice gift for me, and you can rest assured that once Ohad solves this by issuing the new token, the market will be unaffected.

This is all un-provable, of course. I suppose I can take a video of me taking out the rest of the bid at 212 once trading resumes while a few witnesses are watching. Let me know if ya'll care for me to do that.

Cheers


As an early investor you should realize that it is not fair to all other investor that you will get new tokens 1:1 for all the stolen ones even if you have purchased them legally . You should only get for the stolen tokens the number of new tokens that match the market price before the stolen token hit the market.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 31, 2016, 01:01:01 AM
I am also disappointed that they fell for such a scam. It highlights once more the weaknesses of the current organisational setup and business end of Agoras. The good thing is that the scam was early in the lifetime of Agoras, so it's impact can be unscrambled relatively easy. There's no telling what would have happened if such a thing took place later with actual trade volume and thousands of transactions outside the exchanges. One should keep in mind that security and compliance breaches are the number one killer for crypto currency projects.

the only one fell into this scam is me, no other people involved. hopefully such things won't happen on agoras as it will be a much more secured market, and of course does not have any central entity.

As part of my due diligence on Agoras, I wrote to Poloniex two weeks ago asking them if there had been any communication whatsoever taken place between Poloniex and the developers of Agoras or any other affiliated person.
Quote
Mar 21
Thank you for contacting us about your request and do apologize for the delayed reply. You can request a coin to be added to trading at https://poloniex.com/coinRequest. Fill that out there and it will be reviewed; coins are reviewed on an ongoing basis once added to the request page. It is not voting so multiple requests will be ignored, there would not be any contact to the poster nor the dev team if the coin would be added or not. We thank you for your submission.

Best regards,
Maurice
Poloniex Support
This was actually the only red flag coming up and I didn't pay much attention to it, since all the other stuff I checked turned out to be true and made sense.

there is a long term communication and promises between poloniex and omni to list all omni tokens.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: tobeaj2mer01 on March 31, 2016, 02:34:51 AM
Please write a detailed guide when new tokens are issued, I suppose we should replace our old tokens in Omni wallet and in Bittrex.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: DecentralizeEconomics on March 31, 2016, 04:15:12 AM
Hey all! I'm the lucky buyer of the vast majority of the 500k. I just caught it on my AGRS Bittrex tab and immediately sent a happy message to Ohad. :)

03/30/2016 23:47:00   03/14/2016 17:25:40   Limit Buy   0.00011581   14860.70417639   14860.70417639   0.00011580   -1.72532069
03/30/2016 23:46:59   03/17/2016 20:05:02   Limit Buy   0.00020140   14858.49056604   14858.49056604   0.00020139   -2.99998125

03/30/2016 11:46:37 PM   
SELL
0.00000212   406759.55205231   0.86233025 [this one is incomplete.]

I'm an early investor and a friend of Ohad's. I've been holding my coins for well over a year now, and I can assure you these new coins in my possession aren't going to leave my hands any time soon. So this is a nice gift for me, and you can rest assured that once Ohad solves this by issuing the new token, the market will be unaffected.

This is all un-provable, of course. I suppose I can take a video of me taking out the rest of the bid at 212 once trading resumes while a few witnesses are watching. Let me know if ya'll care for me to do that.

Cheers


When you know (and you know) that you purchased something that was stolen, and you even know who it was stolen from (he is your friend?), the ONLY honorable thing would be to return it. In this case, it would even be without you losing a thing, because you would get your money back in full.
Doesn't matter how you twist it, that is the ONLY way to show you are not just taking advantage of this whole criminal ordeal.

 

Dor, I have to agree with Mr.Coinzy.  If you keep the stolen tokens that were sold to you, it will leave a bad taste in peoples' mouths.  Do the right thing here.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jasemoney on March 31, 2016, 04:28:30 AM
Hey all! I'm the lucky buyer of the vast majority of the 500k. I just caught it on my AGRS Bittrex tab and immediately sent a happy message to Ohad. :)

03/30/2016 23:47:00   03/14/2016 17:25:40   Limit Buy   0.00011581   14860.70417639   14860.70417639   0.00011580   -1.72532069
03/30/2016 23:46:59   03/17/2016 20:05:02   Limit Buy   0.00020140   14858.49056604   14858.49056604   0.00020139   -2.99998125

03/30/2016 11:46:37 PM   
SELL
0.00000212   406759.55205231   0.86233025 [this one is incomplete.]

I'm an early investor and a friend of Ohad's. I've been holding my coins for well over a year now, and I can assure you these new coins in my possession aren't going to leave my hands any time soon. So this is a nice gift for me, and you can rest assured that once Ohad solves this by issuing the new token, the market will be unaffected.

This is all un-provable, of course. I suppose I can take a video of me taking out the rest of the bid at 212 once trading resumes while a few witnesses are watching. Let me know if ya'll care for me to do that.

Cheers


When you know (and you know) that you purchased something that was stolen, and you even know who it was stolen from (he is your friend?), the ONLY honorable thing would be to return it. In this case, it would even be without you losing a thing, because you would get your money back in full.
Doesn't matter how you twist it, that is the ONLY way to show you are not just taking advantage of this whole criminal ordeal.

 

Dor, I have to agree with Mr.Coinzy.  If you keep the stolen tokens that were sold to you, it will leave a bad taste in peoples' mouths.  Do the right thing here.
its not on Elokane to decide to give it back and let others on the buy side keep theirs just because Elokane had a super low buy order.

Option A: Anyone on the Bittrex buyside who got dumped on keeps their coins as Dev said.
Option B: Bittrex rolls back all trades to the second before the dump happened.

I dont care either way though I stand to benefit slightly if there is no roll back. Along with anyone else on the buyside today that got dumped into.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: DecentralizeEconomics on March 31, 2016, 04:50:27 AM
Hey all! I'm the lucky buyer of the vast majority of the 500k. I just caught it on my AGRS Bittrex tab and immediately sent a happy message to Ohad. :)

03/30/2016 23:47:00   03/14/2016 17:25:40   Limit Buy   0.00011581   14860.70417639   14860.70417639   0.00011580   -1.72532069
03/30/2016 23:46:59   03/17/2016 20:05:02   Limit Buy   0.00020140   14858.49056604   14858.49056604   0.00020139   -2.99998125

03/30/2016 11:46:37 PM   
SELL
0.00000212   406759.55205231   0.86233025 [this one is incomplete.]

I'm an early investor and a friend of Ohad's. I've been holding my coins for well over a year now, and I can assure you these new coins in my possession aren't going to leave my hands any time soon. So this is a nice gift for me, and you can rest assured that once Ohad solves this by issuing the new token, the market will be unaffected.

This is all un-provable, of course. I suppose I can take a video of me taking out the rest of the bid at 212 once trading resumes while a few witnesses are watching. Let me know if ya'll care for me to do that.

Cheers


When you know (and you know) that you purchased something that was stolen, and you even know who it was stolen from (he is your friend?), the ONLY honorable thing would be to return it. In this case, it would even be without you losing a thing, because you would get your money back in full.
Doesn't matter how you twist it, that is the ONLY way to show you are not just taking advantage of this whole criminal ordeal.

 

Dor, I have to agree with Mr.Coinzy.  If you keep the stolen tokens that were sold to you, it will leave a bad taste in peoples' mouths.  Do the right thing here.
its not on Elokane to decide to give it back and let others on the buy side keep theirs just because Elokane had a super low buy order.

Option A: Anyone on the Bittrex buyside who got dumped on keeps their coins as Dev said.
Option B: Bittrex rolls back all trades to the second before the dump happened.

I dont care either way though I stand to benefit slightly if there is no roll back. Along with anyone else on the buyside today that got dumped into.


I agree that Dor shouldn't be the only one to give up the stolen tokens, but if I was him, I'd be pushing Bittrex to do a rollback on all the trades.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 31, 2016, 07:12:31 AM
Please write a detailed guide when new tokens are issued, I suppose we should replace our old tokens in Omni wallet and in Bittrex.

buyers should do absolutely nothing. it's all automatic. both for holders in wallet or in bittrex


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: smaragda on March 31, 2016, 07:31:22 AM
Option B: Bittrex rolls back all trades to the second before the dump happened.

Hmmm...   I guess Bittrex should have done this^ immediately...   assuming no withdrawals (by buyers and/or low-life scammer) had taken place in the meantime.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: rocanonz on March 31, 2016, 08:22:54 AM
Since the undo button still works, ethically correct is to restore the previous state of the presale.
None is the rightful owner to benefit from the fraud. Seller or buyer.
If the case is not solved ethically correct, the thief has not only manage to stole coins but also our confidence.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 31, 2016, 09:12:34 AM
I just spoke with Dor, the person who bought most of the 500K.
He wasn't aware at all to the discussion here as he's getting ready for a travel. Once I told him that there is some criticism here etc., he presented a *great* will to resolve everything. He will do whatever takes.
We have to bear in mind that after all, he's not the only buyer at that low prices, and it's not fair that other buyers will profit and he wouldn't.
Let's raise some ideas how to resolve it in a fair peaceful way, and let's give it a day or two.

Giving the BTC back to the buyers isn't an issue: if decided, I'll pay it fully, as it is all my fault.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: smaragda on March 31, 2016, 09:34:14 AM
We have to bear in mind that after all, he's not the only buyer at that low prices, and it's not fair that other buyers will profit and he wouldn't.

If no withdrawals took place and/or no further trades with the stolen BTC, Bittrex can resolve the situation without having to go down that route.  

Does Bittrex still have the BTC?  Please provide additional info.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 31, 2016, 09:36:54 AM
We have to bear in mind that after all, he's not the only buyer at that low prices, and it's not fair that other buyers will profit and he wouldn't.

If no withdrawals took place and/or no further trades with the stolen BTC, Bittrex can resolve the situation without having to go down that route.  

Does Bittrex still have the BTC?  Please provide additional info.

Let's wait for the west hemisphere to wake up and I'll ask Richie or Bill from bittrex to address the questions here.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr001 on March 31, 2016, 10:06:09 AM
Please explain, how was possible to steal 500k tokens?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 31, 2016, 10:16:51 AM
story begins at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg14368311#msg14368311


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: numismatist on March 31, 2016, 10:23:13 AM
will be glad for suggestions for a new token name, so people will distinguish it from the old token as easily as possible


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: numismatist on March 31, 2016, 10:30:16 AM
will be glad for suggestions for a new token name, so people will distinguish it from the old token as easily as possible



Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: monopolist on March 31, 2016, 10:40:14 AM
We need to return BTC, and "hacked tokens" to remove.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 31, 2016, 11:13:13 AM
some issue prevents creating a new token now (can do it on omni test network only). omni team will fix that tomorrow, they said


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on March 31, 2016, 12:01:48 PM
It's not fair that other buyers will profit and he wouldn't.
At the same time, it wouldn't be fair to other Agora holders to let the issue unresolved.
Here are the constraints I can see:
1. Dor should keep at least as much profit as other buyers who didn't step up
2. Other Agora holders should be made whole for the accidental dilution of their stake
3. No funding money / sales proceeds should be taken from Tau/Agora project to resolve the matter as this would be counter-productive to everyone.
4. Ideally, Dor should get some reward for his transparency and willingness to arrange the situation,

Here are a few ways we can do that without much drama:

Proposal 1: prorated holding increase
With the help of Dor (log of his trades) and the trade history on Bittrex, we can calculate the average price (let's call it P) of all the trades of other buyers (other than Dor) and the total quantity of these trades (let's call it Q). We don't know how many actual buyers these trades correspond to, so we have to assume that all other trades belong to a single buyer.
(1) can be satisfied by allowing Dor to buy Q tokens at price P per token (minus what he already paid) and return the rest of the tokens to Ohad. If there is a single other buyer, they are even. If there are more (which is very likely the case) Dor gets the best deal of everybody in terms of total notional profit.
(2) following (1) the total dilution is 2*Q. Say the total amount of Tau already sold to investors under the crowdsale is T. The new money mass following accidental dilution is T+2Q. The increase rate of the accidental dilution was therefore R=(T+2Q)/T. Holders can be made whole by multiplying their holdings by R when you issue the new token. It may seem that increasing every buyer's holding equally is the same as doing nothing as it doesn't change the relative holding of every buyer with respect to the current float. But since there is a fixed cap of 42M to the max supply, and later buyers won't have this scaling applied, this still helps compensating earlier buyers in the longer term.
(3) Since only tokens (that would have been destroyed at the end of the crowdsale anyway) are spent by Ohad from the crowdsale fund, this doesn't affect the funding of the project.
(4) IDNI / Agora foundation's own pool of tokens can be used to pay a discretionary reward to Dor for helping. Since these funds would have been issued anyway at the launch of Agora, this doesn't affect the money supply long term for crowdsale buyers.

Proposal 2: prorated sale
Another approach would be to give to everybody the same opportunity to buy tokens at a lower price prorata of their current holdings so that what started as an outage endup being a firesale that will benefit everyone including the project's finances.
We calculate the average price of the transaction. If Dor is keen to cooperate and buy his tokens, P is the average price at which other buyers got their tokens. If Dor is less or not at all keen to cooperate, P is the average price at which every buyer including Dor got their tokens. Now, to calculate cap on how much each holder can buy, we take R = Dor's Recent Purchased Quantity / Dor's total holdings (I understand that Dor holds a lot already, so this ratio shouldn't be that high). If T is the total current supply of tokens sold in the crowdsale, you start a sale for maximum R * T tokens. Each agora holder can buy up to R * balance of his address at price P. You will need to make a snapshot at a specific date and use balances in the snapshot. Holders must move their funds to a Omni wallet before the snapshot. Additional tokens are to be sent at the same address as the one used to calculate the cap to avoid cheating.  You should put a time limit on the offer, long enough for people who care to have the time to take notice.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: e1ghtSpace on March 31, 2016, 01:18:12 PM
Can someone please explain to me in a nice concise paragraph what just happened? I have read the last few pages and I don't understand what's happening. Who scammed ohad?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: smaragda on March 31, 2016, 01:20:41 PM
Here are a few ways we can do that without much drama:

Proposal 1: prorated holding increase

Proposal 2: prorated sale

Barring the possibility of Bittrex resolving this unfortunate predicament (within the Terms of Service, of course), I believe Proposal 1 is more adequate because it doesn't allow for anyone being left behind.



Can someone please explain to me in a nice concise paragraph what just happened? I have read the last few pages and I don't understand what's happening. Who scammed ohad?

Some low-life scammer impersonated Tristan from Poloniex...   Ohad sent 21M AGRS thinking the token would be listed on Poloniex...   500k AGRS were sent to Bittrex and dumped hard...   Bittrex froze the orderbooks, but we're still waiting to find out whether they also managed to lock the account before any withdrawals and/or further trading happened with the stolen BTC...   AGRS tokens are officially void and Ohad will create a new token first chance to match everyone's holdings...   Bittrex will do the switch automatically for its customers...   the rest of the discussion revolves around resolving that some folks ended up with an astronomical amount of tokens at extremely low rates while the presale is ongoing.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: rocanonz on March 31, 2016, 03:05:41 PM
Again, if the trade has been done on illegitimate terms and has been done so. The trade becomes null.
IF the trade is reversible, buyers must be refunded 1:1. Nothing less, nothing more.
IF the trade is not reversible then ... But let's see.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 31, 2016, 03:25:20 PM
Again, if the trade has been done on illegitimate terms and has been done so. The trade becomes null.
IF the trade is reversible, buyers must be refunded 1:1. Nothing less, nothing more.
IF the trade is not reversible then ... But let's see.

Sorry I don't understand it. Everyone here is screaming for decentralization but not even we here are able to handle it. There has to be a insurance for those things, that will buy the tokens back. That is the only legitimate way. If I steal something from your house the insurance will pay as well, if you have one. Of course the police will try to find it. But in a completely decentralized system there is no tracking possible. It is simply gone. So you have to pay more attention or have an insurance. If not, you are fucked!
It is simply luck, that you could hold back the selling of all.

BTW: in this case its really ridiculous. Just picture a scenario, where the "scammer" dumped all. Who is fucked more? We or ohad?
Repeatedly: This presale is taking way too long and it should have ended already.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: richiela on March 31, 2016, 03:45:53 PM
There is no way to reverse the trades.  By the time we were notified, the coins were dumped and the BTC had been withdrawn

thanks,
richie@bittrex


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 31, 2016, 03:51:50 PM
I just created a new token called "IDNI Agoras" (asset id 58). Same amount. The IDNI prefix should indicate that these are the formal tokens.
The new tokens aren't distributed yet, we'll begin distribute it once the discussion converges. The issuer address is the same: 14gF3Up7wdRdkxAL4GgQLdnM8CThgDUSHR

So, on omni wallets, people would see both tokens: Agoras and IDNI Agoras. Only "IDNI Agoras" will take place, while "Agoras Tokens" (asset id 35) becomes defunct.

That all said for omni wallets only. Be careful when you send or receive tokens, to use only the new ones. Bittrex will do the substitution automatically.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on March 31, 2016, 03:56:38 PM

Proposal 1: prorated holding increase
With the help of Dor (log of his trades) and the trade history on Bittrex, we can calculate the average price (let's call it P) of all the trades of other buyers (other than Dor) and the total quantity of these trades (let's call it Q). We don't know how many actual buyers these trades correspond to, so we have to assume that all other trades belong to a single buyer.
(1) can be satisfied by allowing Dor to buy Q tokens at price P per token (minus what he already paid) and return the rest of the tokens to Ohad. If there is a single other buyer, they are even. If there are more (which is very likely the case) Dor gets the best deal of everybody in terms of total notional profit.
(2) following (1) the total dilution is 2*Q. Say the total amount of Tau already sold to investors under the crowdsale is T. The new money mass following accidental dilution is T+2Q. The increase rate of the accidental dilution was therefore R=(T+2Q)/T. Holders can be made whole by multiplying their holdings by R when you issue the new token. It may seem that increasing every buyer's holding equally is the same as doing nothing as it doesn't change the relative holding of every buyer with respect to the current float. But since there is a fixed cap of 42M to the max supply, and later buyers won't have this scaling applied, this still helps compensating earlier buyers in the longer term.
(3) Since only tokens (that would have been destroyed at the end of the crowdsale anyway) are spent by Ohad from the crowdsale fund, this doesn't affect the funding of the project.
(4) IDNI / Agora foundation's own pool of tokens can be used to pay a discretionary reward to Dor for helping. Since these funds would have been issued anyway at the launch of Agora, this doesn't affect the money supply long term for crowdsale buyers.


Answering to myself. An even simpler way to compensate for the dilution is simply to decrease the max supply.
So in (2) instead of multiplying everyone's holding by R=(T+2Q)/T, Ohad can simply divide the max supply down to S = 42M / R.
The huge advantage of that is that the new token can be distributed 1:1, which will avoid having to ask (and trust) the exchange to dispatch properly the extra funds to its users. From an economoic perspective, the result in terms of relative weight of each holder is exactly the same.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on March 31, 2016, 03:59:09 PM
I just created a new token called "IDNI Agoras" (asset id 58). Same amount.
Hmmm. I was just proposing that you issue less to offset for the dilution.
Nevermind, you can always destroy some of the funds once we decide what's the best way to proceed.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 31, 2016, 04:02:53 PM
I just created a new token called "IDNI Agoras" (asset id 58). Same amount.
Hmmm. I was just proposing that you issue less to offset for the dilution.
Nevermind, you can always destroy some of the funds once we decide what's the best way to proceed.

sure, that's no problem.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Kartaba on March 31, 2016, 04:03:29 PM
How much is this prank gonna cost us?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 31, 2016, 04:19:04 PM
How much is this prank gonna cost us?

500000*17cent = 85000$ multiplied by the percentage of shares you own.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 31, 2016, 04:23:45 PM
500K out of 42M is roughly 1.2%.
if the 500K would be destroyed, then this will increase the worth of all holders in 1.2%.
we can simply give all current holders 1.2% more than they have now, without destroying the 500K.
this proposal doesn't answer all concerns raised but only to demonstrate another direction of thought.

conversely we can do the calculation not according to 42M but according to the amount of coins sold, which is about 1/8 of it, so it's about 10%.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 31, 2016, 04:30:16 PM
500K out of 42M is roughly 1.2%.
if the 500K would be destroyed, then this will increase the worth of all holders in 1.2%.
we can simply give all current holders 1.2% more than they have now, without destroying the 500K.
this proposal doesn't answer all concerns raised but only to demonstrate another direction of thought.

We have still all the same percentage, because the scammer will also get more. In your offer stands, that at the beginning the leftover coins will be destroyed. So its equal to say: "I will only sell 41.5M" now.
This implies, that you want to sell all tokens in any way. Whats with the not sold coins being destroyed then?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 31, 2016, 04:32:43 PM
We have still all the same percentage, because the scammer will also get more. In your offer stands, that at the beginning the leftover coins will be destroyed. So its equal to say: "I will only sell 41.5M" now.
This implies, that you want to sell all tokens in any way. Whats with the not sold coins being destroyed then?

of course i speak about the scammer not getting more (but about the new tokens), and the 500K holders also won't get that addition.
so it fits even with coin destruction, which is still planned as usual.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 31, 2016, 04:40:33 PM
We have still all the same percentage, because the scammer will also get more. In your offer stands, that at the beginning the leftover coins will be destroyed. So its equal to say: "I will only sell 41.5M" now.
This implies, that you want to sell all tokens in any way. Whats with the not sold coins being destroyed then?

of course i speak about the scammer not getting more (but about the new tokens), and the 500K holders also won't get that addition.
so it fits even with coin destruction, which is still planned as usual.

Lets see, if you can let bittrex manage that. Probably not that easy, but maybe possible.
But the calculation is wrong. You can't calculate 500K out of 42M but 500k out of the sold coins...


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 31, 2016, 04:42:18 PM
We have still all the same percentage, because the scammer will also get more. In your offer stands, that at the beginning the leftover coins will be destroyed. So its equal to say: "I will only sell 41.5M" now.
This implies, that you want to sell all tokens in any way. Whats with the not sold coins being destroyed then?

of course i speak about the scammer not getting more (but about the new tokens), and the 500K holders also won't get that addition.
so it fits even with coin destruction, which is still planned as usual.

Lets see, if you can let bittrex manage that. Probably not that easy, but maybe possible.

nothing to do with bittrex. omni dev writing a script for automatic distribution of the new token


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: smaragda on March 31, 2016, 04:46:48 PM

I'll leave the floor to you folks...   I respect Ohad's willingness to accommodate existing token holders and I am positive that the final decision will be good in my book.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 31, 2016, 04:49:30 PM
nothing to do with bittrex. omni dev writing a script for automatic distribution of the new token

how does omni dev know, which of the bittrex coins were sold of the scammer?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 31, 2016, 04:53:04 PM

But the calculation is somehow wrong. You can't calculate 500K out of 42M but 500k out of the sold coins...
How much are sold actually? Lets say 10M, then we are already at 5%...


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Kartaba on March 31, 2016, 04:53:12 PM
Those numbers dont scare me, thanx for elaborating. Waiting for further info regarding this unfortunate incident.      


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 31, 2016, 04:56:55 PM
nothing to do with bittrex. omni dev writing a script for automatic distribution of the new token

how does omni dev know, which of the bittrex coins were sold of the scammer?

all the scammer got is known, and he transferred 500K to bittrex


But the calculation is somehow wrong. You can't calculate 500K out of 42M but 500k out of the sold coins...
How much are sold actually? Lets say 10M, then we are already at 5%...

see my demo proposal again, i edited it a minute later


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on March 31, 2016, 05:02:39 PM
nothing to do with bittrex. omni dev writing a script for automatic distribution of the new token

how does omni dev know, which of the bittrex coins were sold of the scammer?
all the scammer got is known, and he transferred 500K to bittrex
yes and they are mixed up with others on bittrex. Only bittrex knows, which coins were the scammers, and which were there already before or did I miss something?



But the calculation is somehow wrong. You can't calculate 500K out of 42M but 500k out of the sold coins...
How much are sold actually? Lets say 10M, then we are already at 5%...

see my demo proposal again, i edited it a minute later

ah ok sorry. So coins are 10% cheaper then. You could decrease the selling price by 10% as well for now. But not necessarily from my side ;)


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 31, 2016, 05:13:46 PM
nothing to do with bittrex. omni dev writing a script for automatic distribution of the new token

how does omni dev know, which of the bittrex coins were sold of the scammer?
all the scammer got is known, and he transferred 500K to bittrex
yes and they are mixed up with others on bittrex. Only bittrex knows, which coins were the scammers, and which were there already before or did I miss something?

right, bittrex can tell if there were bid-sales then other than the scammer


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on March 31, 2016, 06:01:15 PM
Here are two screenshot of the trade history of Bittrex that show the two largest dumps for a total of 493773.96452308 tokens.
Aside from these two dumps that occured over a 1-second timeframes, there are other sell orders that could account for the missing 6k but it's more difficult to be sure which belong to the scammer.
Red frames correspond to the dump.
The 3 lines circled in blue are Elokane/Dor's orders as mentionned below.

03/30/2016 23:47:00   03/14/2016 17:25:40   Limit Buy   0.00011581    14860.70417639   14860.70417639   0.00011580   -1.72532069
03/30/2016 23:46:59   03/17/2016 20:05:02   Limit Buy   0.00020140    14858.49056604   14858.49056604   0.00020139   -2.99998125
03/30/2016 11:46:37                                                             0.00000212   406759.55205231   0.86233025 [this one is incomplete.]

First dump at 03:47:13
http://i.imgur.com/DKcPJjv.jpg

Second dump at 04:46:37
http://i.imgur.com/nsl87YE.jpg


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on March 31, 2016, 06:12:35 PM
I run the data through a spreadsheet. Here are the results:

Elokane/Dor's purchased quantity = 436478.75 AGRS
Elokane/Dor's total spend              = 5.58 BTC
Elokane/Dor's price per AGRS     = 0.00001278
 
Others purchase quantity = 57295.22 AGRS
Others purchase spend    = 9.50 BTC
Others price per AGRS    = 0.0001658


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 31, 2016, 06:17:00 PM
I run the data through a spreadsheet. Here are the results:

Elokane/Dor's purchased quantity = 436478.75 AGRS
Elokane/Dor's total spend              = 5.58 BTC
Elokane/Dor's price per AGRS     = 0.00001278
 
Others purchase quantity = 57295.22 AGRS
Others purchase spend    = 9.50 BTC
Others price per AGRS    = 0.0001658

thanks!

by the way i talked with Dor again and he stressed the point that he'll do everything i tell him to do. i didn't really raise proposals here and trying to keep it neutral so far because i want the final decision to be accepted (or better, also offered) by the coin holders. i guess this is the project's best interest, as any resolution won't really change the course of anything.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on March 31, 2016, 06:46:16 PM
Makes sense. I'm confident that we'll converge to a solution that satisfies everyone.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: yuyu123 on March 31, 2016, 09:05:10 PM
Bittrex should roll back all trades with stolen coins. Ohad should recompense them for the amount withdrawn by the scammer and for their fees earned from those trades. 



There is no way to reverse the trades.  By the time we were notified, the coins were dumped and the BTC had been withdrawn

thanks,
richie@bittrex




Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr.coinzy on March 31, 2016, 09:13:40 PM
Bittrex should roll back all trades with stolen coins. Ohad should recompense them for the amount withdrawn by the scammer and for their fees earned from those trades. 



There is no way to reverse the trades.  By the time we were notified, the coins were dumped and the BTC had been withdrawn

thanks,
richie@bittrex






I second that. If possible, bittrex should make a roll back and get compensated for any financial damage caused by withdrawals and such.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 31, 2016, 09:43:24 PM
btw as i said above, compensation from my side is not an issue.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: DecentralizeEconomics on March 31, 2016, 09:53:41 PM
Bittrex should roll back all trades with stolen coins. Ohad should recompense them for the amount withdrawn by the scammer and for their fees earned from those trades. 



There is no way to reverse the trades.  By the time we were notified, the coins were dumped and the BTC had been withdrawn

thanks,
richie@bittrex






I second that. If possible, bittrex should make a roll back and get compensated for any financial damage caused by withdrawals and such.


I too agree that this is the best and simplest way to handle this matter.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: bytemuma on March 31, 2016, 09:56:50 PM
Wow man, this is like a mexican novel, no offense to mexicans. :o :o :o :o :o

Bittrex should roll back all trades with stolen coins. Ohad should recompense them for the amount withdrawn by the scammer and for their fees earned from those trades. 



There is no way to reverse the trades.  By the time we were notified, the coins were dumped and the BTC had been withdrawn

thanks,
richie@bittrex






I second that. If possible, bittrex should make a roll back and get compensated for any financial damage caused by withdrawals and such.


I too agree that this is the best and simplest way to handle this matter.
I second that.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: bytemuma on March 31, 2016, 10:17:57 PM
hello ohad, i feel sorry for what happened here, it only reveals that you are a person that trusts the others. How did the scammer played you and you didn't suspect?

Unfortunately this only brings confusion and delay for you and the project.

From my point of view all this mess increases my confidence in you. You are a good human being.

The scammers always scam good people. >:(


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on March 31, 2016, 10:20:07 PM
hello ohad, i feel sorry for what happened here, it only reveals that you are a person that trusts the others. How did the scammer played you and you didn't suspect?

Unfortunately this only brings confusion and delay for you and the project.

From my point of view all this mess increases my confidence in you. You are a good human being.

The scammers always scam good people. >:(

thanks. that was a good social engineering. the scammer impersonated Tristan from Poloniex both in front of me and in front of Judith (who has no fault or blame at all on this story), both on skype and in email.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: yuyu123 on March 31, 2016, 10:57:55 PM
Wow man, this is like a mexican novel, no offense to mexicans. :o :o :o :o :o

Bittrex should roll back all trades with stolen coins. Ohad should recompense them for the amount withdrawn by the scammer and for their fees earned from those trades. 



There is no way to reverse the trades.  By the time we were notified, the coins were dumped and the BTC had been withdrawn

thanks,
richie@bittrex






I second that. If possible, bittrex should make a roll back and get compensated for any financial damage caused by withdrawals and such.


I too agree that this is the best and simplest way to handle this matter.
I second that.


Bittrex has the technical capability to do this roll-back and as Ohad can fully compensate them, they'll lose nothing. I wrote them an e-mail to suggest this solution, with a copy to Ohad. I hope bittrex would cooperate with us to resolve this issue, but if not – I'll withdraw all my funds from my account there. 


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: iknowwhoitwas on March 31, 2016, 11:01:32 PM
I have info on the scmmer and i heard from a source of him. he was contacted him to give back all coins and he saids he is will return the coins if he keeps 3m token ... i tink fuck himmm     ??? ??? ???


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: e1ghtSpace on March 31, 2016, 11:09:05 PM
Bittrex should roll back all trades with stolen coins. Ohad should recompense them for the amount withdrawn by the scammer and for their fees earned from those trades. 
There is no way to reverse the trades.  By the time we were notified, the coins were dumped and the BTC had been withdrawn

thanks,
richie@bittrex
I second that. If possible, bittrex should make a roll back and get compensated for any financial damage caused by withdrawals and such.
I too agree that this is the best and simplest way to handle this matter.

So is it possible for bittrex to roll back trades, ohad compensates lost BTC, then he also rolls back the blockchain before the stolen 21m?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: richiela on April 01, 2016, 12:19:25 AM
Wow man, this is like a mexican novel, no offense to mexicans. :o :o :o :o :o

Bittrex should roll back all trades with stolen coins. Ohad should recompense them for the amount withdrawn by the scammer and for their fees earned from those trades. 



There is no way to reverse the trades.  By the time we were notified, the coins were dumped and the BTC had been withdrawn

thanks,
richie@bittrex






I second that. If possible, bittrex should make a roll back and get compensated for any financial damage caused by withdrawals and such.


I too agree that this is the best and simplest way to handle this matter.
I second that.

What is the goal?  Reversing the trades is a big task and i don't it's worth it given what I think you are trying to accomplish.  If the goal is to get the 500k back, why not just arrange an off exchange purchase where ohad buys the coins back from the members that purchased them?  It seems like all the majority of the coins ended up at buyers are known on this thread already and are willing to cooperate.

thanks,
Richie


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 01, 2016, 01:02:43 AM
http://i.imgur.com/Q7Gs2TB.png


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 01, 2016, 01:19:33 AM
http://i.imgur.com/F9Hs09y.png


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: e1ghtSpace on April 01, 2016, 01:27:53 AM
Wait so he is giving them back? Great. Let's hope he actually does.

Edit:
Wow 4am, early or late? Either way you're very committed. Good job ohad.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 01, 2016, 01:57:36 AM
http://i.imgur.com/DF6q8Wj.png


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: e1ghtSpace on April 01, 2016, 02:02:37 AM
So is it possible to roll everything back before you sent the 21m?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 01, 2016, 02:03:48 AM
So is it possible to roll everything back before you sent the 21m?

no rollback is possible. we just create new tokens and give them automatically to all current holders


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: e1ghtSpace on April 01, 2016, 02:04:50 AM
So is it possible to roll everything back before you sent the 21m?

no rollback is possible. we just create new tokens and give them automatically to all current holders
Ok, will this now make the scammers holdings worthless? Apart from the BTC gained from the dump that is.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 01, 2016, 02:05:28 AM
So is it possible to roll everything back before you sent the 21m?

no rollback is possible. we just create new tokens and give them automatically to all current holders
Ok, will this now make the scammers holdings worthless? Apart from the BTC gained from the dump that is.

exactly


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr.coinzy on April 01, 2016, 02:10:55 AM
The important thing is that the thief wanted to be nice and just asked to receive something small for his kindness...
what a miserable impotent douchebag...
oh well, in any case, it's good there are solutions to all this unpleasant affair.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on April 01, 2016, 02:31:57 AM
Poloneix ;D?
Someone else in nxtforum reported a similar phishing attempt one year ago.
https://nxtforum.org/trading-exchanges/phishing-email-coming-from-poloneix-exchange-note-it-is-misspelled (https://nxtforum.org/trading-exchanges/phishing-email-coming-from-poloneix-exchange-note-it-is-misspelled)

Ohad, can you confirm the scammer's email address?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 01, 2016, 02:36:20 AM
Poloneix ;D?
Someone else in nxtforum reported a similar phishing attempt one year ago.
https://nxtforum.org/trading-exchanges/phishing-email-coming-from-poloneix-exchange-note-it-is-misspelled (https://nxtforum.org/trading-exchanges/phishing-email-coming-from-poloneix-exchange-note-it-is-misspelled)

Ohad, can you confirm the scammer's email address?


yes, same scammer, that's how i found out..


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 01, 2016, 02:49:52 AM
im not going to waste my time answering
http://i.imgur.com/OtagtIs.png


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on April 01, 2016, 03:16:16 AM
Same scammer tried to scam another developer on the same day.
See conversation between the Xquadron dev and Polo moderator in the Polo trollbox log below (archives there (http://www.polonibox.com/))

Quote
54 Tournmaster 2016-03-30 00:54:57  GeezUp, how many time its gone take to add Xquadron?
M 2086 GeezUp  2016-03-30 00:55:16  Tournmaster, https://poloniex.com/coinRequest
54 Tournmaster 2016-03-30 00:55:39  GeezUp, already done im talking with tristan now
54 Tournmaster 2016-03-30 00:56:26  GeezUp, so how long it will take?
M 2086 GeezUp  2016-03-30 00:56:31  Tournmaster, are you sure?
M 2086 GeezUp  2016-03-30 00:56:41  Tournmaster, who are you talking too?
M 2086 GeezUp  2016-03-30 00:56:52  Tournmaster, did they ask you for funds?
54 Tournmaster 2016-03-30 00:57:10  GeezUp, Busoni
M 2086 GeezUp  2016-03-30 00:57:32  Tournmaster, and how are you talking to him right now?
54 Tournmaster 2016-03-30 00:57:49  GeezUp, gmail
54 Tournmaster 2016-03-30 00:58:48  GeezUp, do i send the fund?
M 2086 GeezUp  2016-03-30 00:58:58  Tournmaster, They are a scammer
M 2086 GeezUp  2016-03-30 00:59:05  Tournmaster, if they are asking you for money
M 2086 GeezUp  2016-03-30 00:59:14  Tournmaster, what is the email address for them?
54 Tournmaster 2016-03-30 00:59:20  GeezUp, really grrrr i hate this kind of peolpe
M 2086 GeezUp  2016-03-30 00:59:35  Tournmaster, did you send them any money?
54 Tournmaster 2016-03-30 00:59:46  GeezUp, not yet
54 Tournmaster 2016-03-30 00:59:58  GeezUp, poloneix@gmail.com
M 2086 GeezUp  2016-03-30 01:00:25  Tournmaster, ok please do not
M 2086 GeezUp  2016-03-30 01:00:30  that is an impostor
54 Tournmaster 2016-03-30 01:00:41  GeezUp, so xquadron is not gone be add today if i understand....
91 Blockcodes  2016-03-30 01:00:46  GeezUp, you guys didnt reserve your own gmail :(
91 Blockcodes  2016-03-30 01:01:10  its a made up word
M 2086 GeezUp  2016-03-30 01:01:23  Tournmaster, no
54 Tournmaster 2016-03-30 01:01:33  *bleep*t
M 2086 GeezUp  2016-03-30 01:01:42  Blockcodes, we have poloniex but not poloneix
M 2086 GeezUp  2016-03-30 01:01:47  check the spelling
54 Tournmaster 2016-03-30 01:01:47  GeezUp, can you do something
M 2086 GeezUp  2016-03-30 01:01:56  Tournmaster, there is nothing i can do
91 Blockcodes  2016-03-30 01:02:03  GeezUp, ahhh I did not catch it first time tricky phishes
54 Tournmaster 2016-03-30 01:02:13  GeezUp, what can i do?
M 2086 GeezUp  2016-03-30 01:03:49  Tournmaster, to have the coin added?
M 2086 GeezUp  2016-03-30 01:04:21  Blockcodes, yes very tricky
54 Tournmaster 2016-03-30 01:04:57  GeezUp, yes to add Xquadron to polo
M 2086 GeezUp  2016-03-30 01:05:44  Tournmaster, if you requested, we will review
54 Tournmaster 2016-03-30 01:07:11  GeezUp, i already did it but send me a link i will try again
M 2086 GeezUp  2016-03-30 01:07:19  Tournmaster, https://poloniex.com/coinRequest


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on April 01, 2016, 03:31:01 AM
Ohad, let's look at the SMTP headers.
Can you make a pastebin with all the raw emails he sent together with the headers?
(In gmail: click on the inverted triangle beside Reply. Select Show Original)


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 01, 2016, 03:32:20 AM
sure http://pastebin.com/RevjcQiU


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on April 01, 2016, 03:54:44 AM
Can you make a paste bins for all other emails as well?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 01, 2016, 04:00:51 AM
Can you make a paste bins for all other emails as well?

you mean including the headers of each?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on April 01, 2016, 04:01:56 AM
Can you make a paste bins for all other emails as well?

you mean including the headers of each?
yes


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 01, 2016, 04:10:55 AM
Can you make a paste bins for all other emails as well?

you mean including the headers of each?
yes

tauchain.org/emails.tar.gz


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: elliwilli on April 01, 2016, 06:23:34 AM
the coin is no good to him/her/them so it us just stupid to keep it

EDIT, the guy who said he got dumped on what happens his coins?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on April 01, 2016, 07:05:11 AM
tauchain.org/emails.tar.gz
Thanks Ohad.
I've sent you a private msg.
Let me know how you want to proceed.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: yuyu123 on April 01, 2016, 09:51:12 AM
Wow man, this is like a mexican novel, no offense to mexicans. :o :o :o :o :o

Bittrex should roll back all trades with stolen coins. Ohad should recompense them for the amount withdrawn by the scammer and for their fees earned from those trades. 



There is no way to reverse the trades.  By the time we were notified, the coins were dumped and the BTC had been withdrawn

thanks,
richie@bittrex






I second that. If possible, bittrex should make a roll back and get compensated for any financial damage caused by withdrawals and such.


I too agree that this is the best and simplest way to handle this matter.
I second that.

What is the goal?  Reversing the trades is a big task and i don't it's worth it given what I think you are trying to accomplish.  If the goal is to get the 500k back, why not just arrange an off exchange purchase where ohad buys the coins back from the members that purchased them?  It seems like all the majority of the coins ended up at buyers are known on this thread already and are willing to cooperate.

thanks,
Richie

There are only few trades involved with stolen tokens. Why reversing them is a big issue?

There are still 57295.22 token which are in unknown hands.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg14378761#msg14378761

Another solution:
Does all the 500,000 stolen AGRS tokens are still in Bittrex? Can you distinguish them from the other (legitimate) AGRS tokens in Bittrex accounts? If true, Ohad can send you replacemnt IDNI tokens only for the legitimate tokens + the amount in bitcoin paid for the stolen tokens. Users that hold stolen tokens will receive the amount they spent in bitcoin, instead of replacement IDNI tokens.   


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Counterfiat on April 01, 2016, 01:52:29 PM
Hi everyone,

I would like to put forward an idea to see what everyone thinks.

We know that Ohad, HMC and co devTeam are working very hard on this groundbreaking project.
It has been announced that Tau will be ready in a few months.
Agoras coin will then take 12months to launch.

My suggestion is that all test coins be allocated to Agoras investors (less scam purchases) as a bonus altcoin.
A two-for-one deal if you like.

Let's say the low utility BetaAgoras (can be renamed) blazes a path (for the 12 month in the future) premier Algoras coin.
It would be sad for investors to see other alt-coins compete on Tau platform with rising mkt caps in this 12 month waiting period.
Ofcourse various other altCoins can be developed on Tau by random individuals, BUT through this strategy we get a head start in  building brand recognition and value that otherwise would be forfeit. Or give unnecessary ground to an Agoras competitor, however inferior and unlikely that may be. Also we gain greater cryptocoin market share overall by existing in BOTH the altcoin space, AND the premier high-utility space.

So in summary holders of Agoras could also receive a second coin BetaAgoras as a free bonus that launch from the genesis of Tau.
I believe that this initiative will help to maximise the creation of wealth from the Tau enabled cryptocurrencies, going to the primary investors associated with the Tau project - the Agoras token holders.

I also believe that for many potential investors the concerns of the 12 month delay will be allayed. Creating a positive and proactive investment platform for a successful pre-sale.

Thoughts?



Note: I am JackPeasant on freenode irc.

freenode#zennet
7:09 PM <JackPeasant>   <HMC_a> at least two coins will come first:
7:11 PM <JackPeasant> If there was a couple of test coins, a betaAgoras - low utility, and deltaAgoras high utility test
7:13 PM <JackPeasant> coins. Could these be issued to agoras token holders (but not those who benefited from scam) ?
7:23 PM <JackPeasant> Their continuation may have residual value as an alt coin in the Tau space. 
7:24 PM <JackPeasant> They would assist in the agoras  presale, countering the concern of having to wait 12months.
7:25 PM <JackPeasant> And tangibly establish the pre-eminent  status of the agoras coin as a shield against quick-start competitors.
7:30 PM <JackPeasant> This in term will create a greater mkt share in the Tau Crypto-currency alt space rewarding Agoras investors.
7:32 PM <JackPeasant> A bonus residual alt coin or two, on top of the Agoras coin.
7:46 PM <JackPeasant> This would regain a very positive footing, generating substantial goodwill, and sales momentum.



Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr.coinzy on April 01, 2016, 02:20:52 PM
Hi everyone,

I would like to put forward an idea to see what everyone thinks.

We know that Ohad, HMC and co devTeam are working very hard on this groundbreaking project.
It has been announced that Tau will be ready in a few months.
Agoras coin will then take 12months to launch.

My suggestion is that all test coins be allocated to Agoras investors (less scam purchases) as a bonus altcoin.
A two-for-one deal if you like.

Let's say the low utility BetaAgoras (can be renamed) blazes a path (for the 12 month in the future) premier Algoras coin.
It would be sad for investors to see other alt-coins compete on Tau platform with rising mkt caps in this 12 month waiting period.
Ofcourse various other altCoins can be developed on Tau by random individuals, BUT through this strategy we get a head start in  building brand recognition and value that otherwise would be forfeit. Or give unnecessary ground to an Agoras competitor, however inferior and unlikely that may be. Also we gain greater cryptocoin market share overall by existing in BOTH the altcoin space, AND the premier high-utility space.

So in summary holders of Agoras could also receive a second coin BetaAgoras as a free bonus that launch from the genesis of Tau.
I believe that this initiative will help to maximise the creation of wealth from the Tau enabled cryptocurrencies, going to the primary investors associated with the Tau project - the Agoras token holders.

I also believe that for many potential investors the concerns of the 12 month delay will be allayed. Creating a positive and proactive investment platform for a successful pre-sale.

Thoughts?



Note: I am JackPeasant on freenode irc.

freenode#zennet
7:09 PM <JackPeasant>   <HMC_a> at least two coins will come first:
7:11 PM <JackPeasant> If there was a couple of test coins, a betaAgoras - low utility, and deltaAgoras high utility test
7:13 PM <JackPeasant> coins. Could these be issued to agoras token holders (but not those who benefited from scam) ?
7:23 PM <JackPeasant> Their continuation may have residual value as an alt coin in the Tau space. 
7:24 PM <JackPeasant> They would assist in the agoras  presale, countering the concern of having to wait 12months.
7:25 PM <JackPeasant> And tangibly establish the pre-eminent  status of the agoras coin as a shield against quick-start competitors.
7:30 PM <JackPeasant> This in term will create a greater mkt share in the Tau Crypto-currency alt space rewarding Agoras investors.
7:32 PM <JackPeasant> A bonus residual alt coin or two, on top of the Agoras coin.
7:46 PM <JackPeasant> This would regain a very positive footing, generating substantial goodwill, and sales momentum.





I support the original plan without making such alterations as offered here.
Those who will prefer not to wait for 12 months will just purchase later on and for a higher price.
 


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 01, 2016, 02:26:22 PM
Hi everyone,

I would like to put forward an idea to see what everyone thinks.

We know that Ohad, HMC and co devTeam are working very hard on this groundbreaking project.
It has been announced that Tau will be ready in a few months.
Agoras coin will then take 12months to launch.

My suggestion is that all test coins be allocated to Agoras investors (less scam purchases) as a bonus altcoin.
A two-for-one deal if you like.

Let's say the low utility BetaAgoras (can be renamed) blazes a path (for the 12 month in the future) premier Algoras coin.
It would be sad for investors to see other alt-coins compete on Tau platform with rising mkt caps in this 12 month waiting period.
Ofcourse various other altCoins can be developed on Tau by random individuals, BUT through this strategy we get a head start in  building brand recognition and value that otherwise would be forfeit. Or give unnecessary ground to an Agoras competitor, however inferior and unlikely that may be. Also we gain greater cryptocoin market share overall by existing in BOTH the altcoin space, AND the premier high-utility space.

So in summary holders of Agoras could also receive a second coin BetaAgoras as a free bonus that launch from the genesis of Tau.
I believe that this initiative will help to maximise the creation of wealth from the Tau enabled cryptocurrencies, going to the primary investors associated with the Tau project - the Agoras token holders.

I also believe that for many potential investors the concerns of the 12 month delay will be allayed. Creating a positive and proactive investment platform for a successful pre-sale.

Thoughts?



Note: I am JackPeasant on freenode irc.

freenode#zennet
7:09 PM <JackPeasant>   <HMC_a> at least two coins will come first:
7:11 PM <JackPeasant> If there was a couple of test coins, a betaAgoras - low utility, and deltaAgoras high utility test
7:13 PM <JackPeasant> coins. Could these be issued to agoras token holders (but not those who benefited from scam) ?
7:23 PM <JackPeasant> Their continuation may have residual value as an alt coin in the Tau space. 
7:24 PM <JackPeasant> They would assist in the agoras  presale, countering the concern of having to wait 12months.
7:25 PM <JackPeasant> And tangibly establish the pre-eminent  status of the agoras coin as a shield against quick-start competitors.
7:30 PM <JackPeasant> This in term will create a greater mkt share in the Tau Crypto-currency alt space rewarding Agoras investors.
7:32 PM <JackPeasant> A bonus residual alt coin or two, on top of the Agoras coin.
7:46 PM <JackPeasant> This would regain a very positive footing, generating substantial goodwill, and sales momentum.





I support the original plan without making such alterations as offered here.
Those who will prefer not to wait for 12 months will just purchase later on and for a higher price.
 



one of the main tau's req is to begin completely equal without any distinction between the players. then the first users will determine the rules of the network. tau's dev avoids discussing this initial post-genesis process in order not to bias the process.
so, you can raise your idea over tau when ready. on the other hand, bear in mind that tau's power comes from not giving incentive to fork it but to rather share resources and information with the root chain. therefore it'll better not prefer one context over another. but this too is also up to the rules of the network to be determined by the users


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mishax1 on April 01, 2016, 02:55:02 PM
Bittrex not willing to cooperate and rollback the trades?  Don't trade there..


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: numismatist on April 01, 2016, 04:15:04 PM
Bittrex not willing to cooperate and rollback the trades?  Don't trade there..

I will second that. And somehow the crap keeps piling up on Bittrex. Made so many bad experiences over there, I am fed up.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: richiela on April 01, 2016, 04:30:26 PM
Bittrex not willing to cooperate and rollback the trades?  Don't trade there..

I will second that. And somehow the crap keeps piling up on Bittrex. Made so many bad experiences over there, I am fed up.

Sorry, but we are an exchange and did exactly what we are designed to do.  It is not our fault that someone sold legitimate coins here that you want to invalidate.  Do as you please, but I'm not going to do things that are detrimental to our system and users.

richie@bittrex


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: elliwilli on April 01, 2016, 04:48:52 PM
+1 richie


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on April 01, 2016, 04:55:42 PM
Bittrex not willing to cooperate and rollback the trades?  Don't trade there..

I will second that. And somehow the crap keeps piling up on Bittrex. Made so many bad experiences over there, I am fed up.

Bittrex is not responsible for it. If you don't understand that go back to the banking system...


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr.coinzy on April 01, 2016, 05:52:38 PM

I think that the people over at bittrex (richie et al.) could do the roll back if they wanted, but they just chose not to because it is extra work and effort for them and as such does not justify taking further action from their part. I can understand that, even if I do not agree with them in this case (I think they should have accommodated to the special request in this case due to it's special circumstances).
If the exchange solution (best one offered to date) is not a viable option, we should proceed with an adequate alternative (a few have been offered).


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Bimmerhead on April 01, 2016, 06:02:44 PM
Bittrex not willing to cooperate and rollback the trades?  Don't trade there..

I will second that. And somehow the crap keeps piling up on Bittrex. Made so many bad experiences over there, I am fed up.

Bittrex is not responsible for it. If you don't understand that go back to the banking system...

+1

Sounds like someone looking for a bail out.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 01, 2016, 06:34:05 PM
friends, the show must go on.
let's reach a consensus or i'll have to simply send all new tokens except the 20.5M.
the exchange suspension strongly harms the project.
let's have a deadline until tomorrow in midnight GMT (~30 hours from now)


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jrpatking on April 01, 2016, 06:42:22 PM
Simply burn/devalue the stolen coins. Asking bittrex to rollback is not a good option. The team must act quickly. This is one of the nicely traded coin with great support. It should start trading soon. Many holders are trying to sell in Marketplace and face suspicion from buyers.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Shield on April 01, 2016, 07:02:16 PM
this user EuZeN recently trying to sell 500K tokens at cheap price
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=111788



as well the theif's address belongs to this wallet
https://www.walletexplorer.com/wallet/11c3fbaa1e320d19/addresses

it can help you to find who was hacker,If you need more help about this I can spend some of my free time to help you guys
A quick investigation shows he is a proven scammer and ponzi operator on bitcointalk


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Shield on April 01, 2016, 07:58:39 PM


If hacker is reading my message(I am 100% sure he is ;) )

Those tokens are useless for hacker, so better he give them back to Ohad to save time of Ohad and others.if he do refund then it can solve the issue a bit.
according to this post
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg14378761#msg14378761

436478.75 AGRS in hand of users who are ready to cooperate
so if Ohad gets those 20.5M (from hacker) and 436478.75 AGRS (from buyers) back then he get almost all of them back expect <0.15% tokens that were sold to unknown buyer.

Now its upto hacker what he want to do, keep those useless tokens or give them back to save time of developer and others

tokens can returned to original address that is used to distribute them
14gF3Up7wdRdkxAL4GgQLdnM8CThgDUSHR


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mishax1 on April 01, 2016, 08:02:29 PM
Bittrex not willing to cooperate and rollback the trades?  Don't trade there..

I will second that. And somehow the crap keeps piling up on Bittrex. Made so many bad experiences over there, I am fed up.

Sorry, but we are an exchange and did exactly what we are designed to do.  It is not our fault that someone sold legitimate coins here that you want to invalidate.  Do as you please, but I'm not going to do things that are detrimental to our system and users.

richie@bittrex

These are your users, we all trade and used to trade on your platform, get your priorities straight.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Shield on April 01, 2016, 08:33:45 PM


If hacker is reading my message(I am 100% sure he is ;) )

Those tokens are useless for hacker, so better he give them back to Ohad to save time of Ohad and others.if he do refund then it can solve the issue a bit.
according to this post
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg14378761#msg14378761

436478.75 AGRS in hand of users who are ready to cooperate
so if Ohad gets those 20.5M (from hacker) and 436478.75 AGRS (from buyers) back then he get almost all of them back expect <0.15% tokens that were sold to unknown buyer.

Now its upto hacker what he want to do, keep those useless tokens or give them back to save time of developer and others

tokens can returned to original address that is used to distribute them
14gF3Up7wdRdkxAL4GgQLdnM8CThgDUSHR

Looks like hacker read my message, I see a recent transaction on 14gF3Up7wdRdkxAL4GgQLdnM8CThgDUSHR
https://blockchain.info/tx/8d28f45701eaa4d54fd5450cfc67d0cb50049e5e6df5802b5e05b3c03290d348

lets wait Ohad for update, I hope all 20.5m coins were returned


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: yuyu123 on April 01, 2016, 08:44:16 PM
Bittrex not willing to cooperate and rollback the trades?  Don't trade there..

I will second that. And somehow the crap keeps piling up on Bittrex. Made so many bad experiences over there, I am fed up.

Sorry, but we are an exchange and did exactly what we are designed to do.  It is not our fault that someone sold legitimate coins here that you want to invalidate.  Do as you please, but I'm not going to do things that are detrimental to our system and users.

richie@bittrex

These are your users, we all trade and used to trade on your platform, get your priorities straight.


Richie,

Did you considered my second suggestion, here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg14385736#msg14385736

It is not required a roll-back, and it is very easy to implement. The stolen token are held by 10 users maximum. You can exclude them from the automatic replacement process and handle their accounts manually. I am not seeing why it is a problem to do it.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: yuyu123 on April 01, 2016, 08:53:09 PM
friends, the show must go on.
let's reach a consensus or i'll have to simply send all new tokens except the 20.5M.
the exchange suspension strongly harms the project.
let's have a deadline until tomorrow in midnight GMT (~30 hours from now)



I still hope Bittrex will cooperate with us to distinguish the stolen tokens from the legitimate one, and receive for them BTC instead of replacement IDNI tokens, but if not, Ohad can send Bittrex replacement IDNI tokens only for the legitimate tokens (not for the 500,000 stolen tokens) and the holders of the stolen tokens (I guess, less than 10 users) can contact Ohad to request him the bitcoin amount they paid for the stolen tokens.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 01, 2016, 09:16:15 PM
Looks like hacker read my message, I see a recent transaction on 14gF3Up7wdRdkxAL4GgQLdnM8CThgDUSHR
https://blockchain.info/tx/8d28f45701eaa4d54fd5450cfc67d0cb50049e5e6df5802b5e05b3c03290d348

lets wait Ohad for update, I hope all 20.5m coins were returned

only 10M http://omnichest.info/lookupadd.aspx?address=14gF3Up7wdRdkxAL4GgQLdnM8CThgDUSHR


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 01, 2016, 09:22:24 PM
i suggest we first come up with a method that prevents loss to all buyers. then, if we can do some cosmic level justice, that'd be great, and that's what tau is about. still preventing loss is more important than preventing profit.

at any case if it'll be decided to pay the bitcoins back to the buyers of the 500K, i'll pay that.
problem is we don't know who are they all, while we cannot discriminate between them.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: cryptoman77777 on April 01, 2016, 09:36:40 PM
Bittrex does not bring back stolen tokens?!
this is a disaster!


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: yournotsosmart on April 01, 2016, 10:00:28 PM
Looks like hacker read my message, I see a recent transaction on 14gF3Up7wdRdkxAL4GgQLdnM8CThgDUSHR
https://blockchain.info/tx/8d28f45701eaa4d54fd5450cfc67d0cb50049e5e6df5802b5e05b3c03290d348

lets wait Ohad for update, I hope all 20.5m coins were returned

only 10M http://omnichest.info/lookupadd.aspx?address=14gF3Up7wdRdkxAL4GgQLdnM8CThgDUSHR

i ty send more 10 mills and wont send they ask for high bitcon fee


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: kirby9058 on April 02, 2016, 02:34:45 AM
the coin is no good to him/her/them so it us just stupid to keep it

EDIT, the guy who said he got dumped on what happens his coins?
you are euzen who was selling 500k tokens below market price
i sold you this account elliwilli and now you are pretending to be a honest user
i can give proof if someone wants

shame on you man  >:(


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: DecentralizeEconomics on April 02, 2016, 07:34:52 AM
Bittrex not willing to cooperate and rollback the trades?  Don't trade there..

I will second that. And somehow the crap keeps piling up on Bittrex. Made so many bad experiences over there, I am fed up.

Sorry, but we are an exchange and did exactly what we are designed to do.  It is not our fault that someone sold legitimate coins here that you want to invalidate.  Do as you please, but I'm not going to do things that are detrimental to our system and users.

richie@bittrex

Well, I guess that's one opinion on the situation, but I'll wager to say that the majority of honest individuals don't view stolen coins as "legitimate coins".


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: honesthodler on April 02, 2016, 07:43:51 AM
the coin is no good to him/her/them so it us just stupid to keep it

EDIT, the guy who said he got dumped on what happens his coins?
you are euzen who was selling 500k tokens below market price
i sold you this account elliwilli and now you are pretending to be a honest user
i can give proof if someone wants

shame on you man  >:(


lurk of this sub for quite some time and also holder of agoras token, but have to agree with user kirby9058. His account activity looks fishy. Take some time and look at his post history;  Trying to lend 10btc with an altcoin @34006 as collateral (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1419714.0). Account was inactive from nov. 2015, that person wrote with English tongue, this guy is not.

EDIT: fixed broken link


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: smaragda on April 02, 2016, 07:55:48 AM
still preventing loss is more important than preventing profit.

I believe the discussion was on the right track when klosure was suggesting ways to level the field.  Please proceed with such resolution, preferably something resembling Proposal 1.  

The longer it takes...  the more relevant the low-life scammer remains...   >:(


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: BoscoMurray on April 02, 2016, 07:59:57 AM
i suggest we first come up with a method that prevents loss to all buyers. then, if we can do some cosmic level justice, that'd be great, and that's what tau is about. still preventing loss is more important than preventing profit.

at any case if it'll be decided to pay the bitcoins back to the buyers of the 500K, i'll pay that.
problem is we don't know who are they all, while we cannot discriminate between them.

Bittrex could give you a list of addresses that the coins are withdrawn to, and the average price those people paid.

Those users could send their Agoras to a burn address that you control. When you receive them, confirm they do actually come from said address, and pay them their BTC in return.

Maybe a little work for Bittrex and you - in fact, I don't know if this is even possible. Just an idea.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on April 02, 2016, 08:03:47 AM
I thought about it again.
I try to summarize the numbers (please correct me, if something is wrong):
42.0M Tokens
05.0M IPO sold Tokens
09.5M stolen Tokens but curently not sellable
00.5M stolen Tokens dumped at lower price and are eligible for a later dump below IPO price.

So we see that the guy sold about 10% of the IPO tokens. So ohad said he would give 10% more coins to compensate it.
But even if ohad managed to distinuish the coins and gave everyone else 10% more new tokens, it would still look like this:
42.0M Tokens
05.5M IPO sold Tokens
00.5M stolen Tokens sold at lower price and are eligible for a later dump below IPO price.

so the stolen coins selling percentage shrank 1%... there is nearly no difference...
If BITTREX does not manage to rollback the trades. The only reasonable possiblity is to buy the coins somehow back.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Pofick on April 02, 2016, 09:12:03 AM
What should I do with my coins on bittrex to be fine?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: rocanonz on April 02, 2016, 10:18:24 AM
It must be in the interest of all the legitimate buyers to come together to a common conclusion ASAP.
The bank argument vs. crypto doesn't hold up. Even in crypto-space, means to do justice must be found.

If you buy a stolen car and you are found, are you still entitled to own the car or you should return the property and be compensated?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: BoscoMurray on April 02, 2016, 10:32:25 AM
What should I do with my coins on bittrex to be fine?

Provided that you did not buy your coins from the thief who dumped them at a low price, you don't need to do anything. You will automatically be allocated your fair and correct share of new tokens (I think).

It is only those people who had low priced buy orders and inadvertently bought from the thief who need concern themselves with what might happen to their coins. Although, it is a concern to us all, since it affects the value of our legitimate holdings.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 02, 2016, 11:01:24 AM
i suggest we first come up with a method that prevents loss to all buyers. then, if we can do some cosmic level justice, that'd be great, and that's what tau is about. still preventing loss is more important than preventing profit.

at any case if it'll be decided to pay the bitcoins back to the buyers of the 500K, i'll pay that.
problem is we don't know who are they all, while we cannot discriminate between them.

Bittrex could give you a list of addresses that the coins are withdrawn to, and the average price those people paid.

Those users could send their Agoras to a burn address that you control. When you receive them, confirm they do actually come from said address, and pay them their BTC in return.

Maybe a little work for Bittrex and you - in fact, I don't know if this is even possible. Just an idea.

bittrex are regulated in the USA (toughest regulation). so they really cant do anything or even tell us what they can do.
the current situation is that bittrex won't revert the trades, and only one buyer from the buyers who bought the 500K is known.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: BoscoMurray on April 02, 2016, 11:32:20 AM
i suggest we first come up with a method that prevents loss to all buyers. then, if we can do some cosmic level justice, that'd be great, and that's what tau is about. still preventing loss is more important than preventing profit.

at any case if it'll be decided to pay the bitcoins back to the buyers of the 500K, i'll pay that.
problem is we don't know who are they all, while we cannot discriminate between them.

Bittrex could give you a list of addresses that the coins are withdrawn to, and the average price those people paid.

Those users could send their Agoras to a burn address that you control. When you receive them, confirm they do actually come from said address, and pay them their BTC in return.

Maybe a little work for Bittrex and you - in fact, I don't know if this is even possible. Just an idea.

bittrex are regulated in the USA (toughest regulation). so they really cant do anything or even tell us what they can do.
the current situation is that bittrex won't revert the trades, and only one buyer from the buyers who bought the 500K is known.

Then I think the only thing that can be done is to distribute new tokens, 1 for 1, except the 20.5M.

Buying back the 500k from honest individuals may seem like a reasonable effort too, but if you would be using BTC gained from the ICO/IPO (or whatever this is), then is that really worthwhile? Taking money out the the development pot is possibly worse than diluting the legitimate coin supply... I'm only guessing here at your source of BTC for the buy back.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 02, 2016, 11:34:50 AM
Buying back the 500k from honest individuals may seem like a reasonable effort too, but if you would be using BTC gained from the ICO/IPO (or whatever this is), then is that really worthwhile? Taking money out the the development pot is possibly worse than diluting the legitimate coin supply... I'm only guessing here at your source of BTC for the buy back.

we don't even know who the buyers are except one, so as for now buying them back is simply impossible due to lack of information. and yes this comes from the sales, no other source and it's the project's best interest to follow the buyer's decisions, and the amount is not huge.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 02, 2016, 03:29:32 PM
midnight GMT is too soon as i see people trying to schedule discussions and the time is running till then. let's postpone it in another 24 hours to the next midnight GMT


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on April 02, 2016, 04:10:41 PM
Some update on the situation.

We have been investigating the identity of the scammer over the last couple of days. Luckily, he appears to be an amateur who thinks he is safe going through Tor but doesn't know how to set up his routing table properly to have out-of-band traffic route transparently over Tor. He is also suprizingly naive and fell for the obvious click bait that Ohad put in his latest email, thanks to which we now have a full packet dump and IDS traces of his multiple failed attempts at fetching an imaginary "final_proposal_v2" file that Ohad convinced him was waiting for him on Tauchain's server, complete with misrouted DNS queries, unobfuscated http headers, and a whole bunch of system finger prints. We also have his session info at TrustWave and TrendMicro (which he doesn't know how to configure properly either it seems), and plenty of gmail endorsed email proofs of this fraud.

As if that wasn't enough, as some have already noticed he has also been careless about managing his sock puppet accounts and keeps making the same grammatical faults (are been, is been, was been...), using the same broken idioms everywhere, and having his accounts support each other's fishy claims. We have been able to correlate him with a good bunch of Bitcointalk and social media accounts with a high degree of confidence, which means that we have a lot more charges to put against him when this affair goes to court. Oh and his ledger trails are laughably easy to track and nicely matching with addresses used by his sock puppets.

At this point we are confident that we have plenty enough material to justify engaging legal action against him. We are still discussing about what course to pursue on the matter. I'll be posting on the progress.

In the mean time and until further notice, we should still assume that the funds are gone and we will need to address quickly the issue of reissuing the assets, decide how to absorb the loss, and resume trading. Let's have this discussion going and come to an agreement.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 02, 2016, 04:14:16 PM
thanks klosure!

on a different topic: i was speaking with Dor and he raised the possibility to divide all tokens among all synereo's (amp) holders, either current holders or in their upcoming crowdsale, as it will increase interest in our project. what do you people think?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jibble on April 02, 2016, 05:52:26 PM
thanks klosure!

on a different topic: i was speaking with Dor and he raised the possibility to divide all tokens among all synereo's (amp) holders, either current holders or in their upcoming crowdsale, as it will increase interest in our project. what do you people think?

I honestly think that is a terribly idea .

It will increase interest in free money and dumping , if they are being given away, a large majority wont care about the project


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on April 02, 2016, 06:05:28 PM
thanks klosure!

on a different topic: i was speaking with Dor and he raised the possibility to divide all tokens among all synereo's (amp) holders, either current holders or in their upcoming crowdsale, as it will increase interest in our project. what do you people think?
Well, if Synereo will agree to sharedrop an equivalent amount of AMP on Agora holders, I guess that could be a very workable deal as far as I'm concerned!

Actually, and although this has nothing to do with the subject at hand, I'm increasingly convinced that Tau would be an ideal plateform for Synereo. Social networks are heavily reliant on linked data, semantic models and logical inference which are core constituants of Tau's DNA. Synereo also seems to be leaning more and more toward a functional paradigm. I even had a doubt when reading this conversation (https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/31rnmh/isnt_ethereum_just_a_dsl_for_the_blockchain/) where Lucius Greg Meredith lectures Vitalik Butterin about the brokenness of Ethereum's assumption that a max gaz cost can practically be computed for random turing complete contracts that may call other contracts in a possibly infinite recursion. I was almost expecting that Greg was going to mention Tau and MLTT. But instead he mentionned Special-K and Pi-calculus. Haven't dug it, but from the outset it does seem that Special-K would be a good fit in Tau.

Now from a functional perspective, if we add Agora to the mix, the synergies are becoming mind blowing. Doing logical inference and large scale principal component analysis on a massive dataset not only is a good application of Tau, but also requires large amount of distributed computational power which Zennet is all about. The typical use case shown in Synereo's marketing materials is a social network that allows professionals to rate each other, list their services and hire other professionals. Again something that is of a troubling complementarity with Agora as a job market where the focus is on the commoditization of work as a form of provable computation, and its pricing.

I'm probably getting a bit ahead of myself, but I do get this bizarre gut feeling that Zennet, Synereo and Agora would be an explosive combination, and a perfect fit for Tau. It's also a remarkable coincidence that both projects are based in Israel and that the developers appear to know each other.

Edit: typos


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: BoscoMurray on April 02, 2016, 07:19:43 PM


Nice work dude


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: honesthodler on April 02, 2016, 07:36:08 PM
Some update on the situation.

Sir, you are a boss!


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Coinsulter on April 02, 2016, 08:28:58 PM
thanks klosure!

on a different topic: i was speaking with Dor and he raised the possibility to divide all tokens among all synereo's (amp) holders, either current holders or in their upcoming crowdsale, as it will increase interest in our project. what do you people think?

I think that's an EXCELLENT idea. Agoras holders should be included in the distribution of the stolen coins, as they were directly affected financially by the fraudulent transaction.





Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: e1ghtSpace on April 02, 2016, 11:09:21 PM
thanks klosure!

on a different topic: i was speaking with Dor and he raised the possibility to divide all tokens among all synereo's (amp) holders, either current holders or in their upcoming crowdsale, as it will increase interest in our project. what do you people think?

I honestly think that is a terribly idea .

It will increase interest in free money and dumping , if they are being given away, a large majority wont care about the project
I agree with this. Most holders will treat it as free BTC and probably dump it.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr.coinzy on April 02, 2016, 11:41:05 PM
I also think that no coins should be given freely to anyone (very bad idea), in such case the coins will be dumped as soon as possible, and hurt the project and the market.
One of the other solutions must be followed instead. I believe that the best option at the moment is to purchase the coins back at cost + giving a limited compensation to the seller returning the coins for his willingness to cooperate.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 03, 2016, 12:18:39 AM
as things stand now, preventing loss is most important.
two cases are theoretically possible to be actually called losses: dilution of existing buyers, and buyers of the 500K not getting the new token.
under the primum non nocere principle (first do no harm), the default is to fully credit the 500K holders, and give the current holders more tokens so they won't turn out diluted.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jibble on April 03, 2016, 01:35:51 AM
as things stand now, preventing loss is most important.
two cases are theoretically possible to be actually called losses: dilution of existing buyers, and buyers of the 500K not getting the new token.
under the primum non nocere principle (first do no harm), the default is to fully credit the 500K holders, and give the current holders more tokens so they won't turn out diluted.

I don't know if i am alone in this thinking but those 500k coins that were dumped, i think 1 person got the majority .

that about 400k of coins , at currently market value which would now be 20 cents a piece , is like winning the lottery , its like 80,000 dollars

that to any project so young can be extremely damaging , especially if it advances beyond 1 dollars in the future or more , not only if the coin manage to reach a complete sell out of tokens at 42 million but out of the current amount that has been sold total , it makes up a good 10-15% at least share of all coins currently in circulation to investors .

Giving away 100,000 dollars to those who bought into the scammer dumping , then having to give away even more to compensate those investors that didn't get scammed seems a bit counter productive , giving even more free coins away.

Giving the coins in smaller bundles to 10 different projects would be a much more efficient advertisement for the coin but this would still just cause dumping and effecting the price and giving away potential and actual value .

if those who bought those super cheap coins where able to keep 5-10% of the coins they managed to buy + more coins to cover the actual BTC they spent buying those scam coins , at current market value.

this would be a reward for giving back coins , while also making sure any incurred loses they would suffer from returning them are covered , this would't cause a potentially large amount of coins out in the open held by a few and wouldn't effect the price anywhere near as much, while still saying thank you and helping out those affected by the dumping


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Foerster on April 03, 2016, 02:37:42 AM
Those who bought the 500k coins should get back what they paid in BTC + 15% gain.
They get compensated a bit and nobody is hurt.

Quote
the default is to fully credit the 500K holders, and give the current holders more tokens so they won't turn out diluted.
Tau chain logical reasoning would not approve. ;)
There is zero possibility that current holders will not turn out diluted by just raising the token supply a bit.
For no dilution to take place one would have to give current holders infinitely more tokens to make the 500k infinitesimally small in relation.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 03, 2016, 02:54:11 AM
Those who bought the 500k coins should get back what they paid in BTC + 15% gain.
They get compensated a bit and nobody is hurt.

only one of them is known (though holds 90%)

Quote
the default is to fully credit the 500K holders, and give the current holders more tokens so they won't turn out diluted.
Tau chain logical reasoning would not approve. ;)
There is zero possibility that current holders will not turn out diluted by just raising the token supply a bit.
For no dilution to take place one would have to give current holders infinitely more tokens to make the 500k infinitesimally small in relation.

it's not about raising the tokens supply, but adding all buyers up till today ~10% more tokens (automatically with the distribution of the new token), except the 500K.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on April 03, 2016, 03:27:41 AM
Ok, here is a solution that I think everyone will find agreeable. As per presale terms, Ohad holds a 3% founder share which he may use as he sees fit. 3% of 42M is 1.26M which are or will anyway end up being part of the money supply. In addition, Ohad has expressed his determination to take full responsibility for the loss.

So here is what we can do: Ohad will take the 500k from the founder share and destroy it, reducing the founder share to 726k and the maximum future supply to 41.5M. From that point, the short term situation becomes exactly the same as if Ohad had decided to sell 500k of his holdings, as he is entitled to, and ended up doing a fat finger while doing so. In addition, the max supply has shrinked by 500k regardless of how many coins are effectively sold, which benefits every long term investor.

Now, you may be asking: won't the fact of taking from Ohad's stash risk reducing his amount of skin in the game and therefore affect his motivation for the project?Well in other circumstances it probably would, but remember that in that particular case the vast majority of the stolen money was picked up by Dor who is Ohad's friend. No good friend would pick your lost wallet and refuse to return it and Dor sure seems like a nice and honest guy, so I'm confident he'll push for Ohad to accept the funds back. Now as we have seen, Ohad is also conflicted by the idea that accepting the funds back would be unfair to Dor. Dor's intervention and willingness to return the funds pretty much saved the day, so Ohad owes him a bunch and will probably want to thank him for that. In the end, it's really something that only Ohad and Dor can solve together, and if I dare say, that's really none of our business.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: e1ghtSpace on April 03, 2016, 07:37:33 AM
Ok, here is a solution that I think everyone will find agreeable. As per presale terms, Ohad holds a 3% founder share which he may use as he sees fit. 3% of 42M is 1.26M which are or will anyway end up being part of the money supply. In addition, Ohad has expressed his determination to take full responsibility for the loss.

So here is what we can do: Ohad will take the 500k from the founder share and destroy it, reducing the founder share to 726k and the maximum future supply to 41.5M. From that point, the short term situation becomes exactly the same as if Ohad had decided to sell 500k of his holdings, as he is entitled to, and ended up doing a fat finger while doing so. In addition, the max supply has shrinked by 500k regardless of how many coins are effectively sold, which benefits every long term investor.

Now, you may be asking: won't the fact of taking from Ohad's stash risk reducing his amount of skin in the game and therefore affect his motivation for the project?Well in other circumstances it probably would, but remember that in that particular case the vast majority of the stolen money was picked up by Dor who is Ohad's friend. No good friend would pick your lost wallet and refuse to return it and Dor sure seems like a nice and honest guy, so I'm confident he'll push for Ohad to accept the funds back. Now as we have seen, Ohad is also conflicted by the idea that accepting the funds back would be unfair to Dor. Dor's intervention and willingness to return the funds pretty much saved the day, so Ohad owes him a bunch and will probably want to thank him for that. In the end, it's really something that only Ohad and Dor can solve together, and if I dare say, that's really none of our business.
If Dor gives back the 90% he has and ohad buys it off him, ohad only has to destroy 50k coins from his stash.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr001 on April 03, 2016, 07:55:13 AM
Ok, here is a solution that I think everyone will find agreeable. As per presale terms, Ohad holds a 3% founder share which he may use as he sees fit. 3% of 42M is 1.26M which are or will anyway end up being part of the money supply. In addition, Ohad has expressed his determination to take full responsibility for the loss.

So here is what we can do: Ohad will take the 500k from the founder share and destroy it, reducing the founder share to 726k and the maximum future supply to 41.5M. From that point, the short term situation becomes exactly the same as if Ohad had decided to sell 500k of his holdings, as he is entitled to, and ended up doing a fat finger while doing so. In addition, the max supply has shrinked by 500k regardless of how many coins are effectively sold, which benefits every long term investor.

Now, you may be asking: won't the fact of taking from Ohad's stash risk reducing his amount of skin in the game and therefore affect his motivation for the project?Well in other circumstances it probably would, but remember that in that particular case the vast majority of the stolen money was picked up by Dor who is Ohad's friend. No good friend would pick your lost wallet and refuse to return it and Dor sure seems like a nice and honest guy, so I'm confident he'll push for Ohad to accept the funds back. Now as we have seen, Ohad is also conflicted by the idea that accepting the funds back would be unfair to Dor. Dor's intervention and willingness to return the funds pretty much saved the day, so Ohad owes him a bunch and will probably want to thank him for that. In the end, it's really something that only Ohad and Dor can solve together, and if I dare say, that's really none of our business.
This seems to be a good solution.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: NILIcoin on April 03, 2016, 08:33:09 AM
Ok, here is a solution that I think everyone will find agreeable. As per presale terms, Ohad holds a 3% founder share which he may use as he sees fit. 3% of 42M is 1.26M which are or will anyway end up being part of the money supply. In addition, Ohad has expressed his determination to take full responsibility for the loss.

So here is what we can do: Ohad will take the 500k from the founder share and destroy it, reducing the founder share to 726k and the maximum future supply to 41.5M. From that point, the short term situation becomes exactly the same as if Ohad had decided to sell 500k of his holdings, as he is entitled to, and ended up doing a fat finger while doing so. In addition, the max supply has shrinked by 500k regardless of how many coins are effectively sold, which benefits every long term investor.

Now, you may be asking: won't the fact of taking from Ohad's stash risk reducing his amount of skin in the game and therefore affect his motivation for the project?Well in other circumstances it probably would, but remember that in that particular case the vast majority of the stolen money was picked up by Dor who is Ohad's friend. No good friend would pick your lost wallet and refuse to return it and Dor sure seems like a nice and honest guy, so I'm confident he'll push for Ohad to accept the funds back. Now as we have seen, Ohad is also conflicted by the idea that accepting the funds back would be unfair to Dor. Dor's intervention and willingness to return the funds pretty much saved the day, so Ohad owes him a bunch and will probably want to thank him for that. In the end, it's really something that only Ohad and Dor can solve together, and if I dare say, that's really none of our business.
This seems to be a good solution.
I think there is one more thing to consider here. Agoras coins are like shares in the future Agora platform. Now if I invest my dollars (or btc) to get the share, and some have invested their time working to create the value to  the share (as options in the regular scheme), having free-of-charge (gifted) shares floating in the market reduce the value of the initial share. A gift of an asset (token) that is traded in the market is always on the expense of all asset holders

I think that some sort of cooperation with  Dor's project can be interesting and useful and maybe profitable to both communities of coin holders but it have nothing to do with the stolen coin and these have to be taken out of the equation as of now. Whoever got the stolen coins can prove they came from that address and can be compensated by Ohad with btc or new Agora in the pre dump value .  I can see a good reasoning behind giving a little bonus for choosing new-Agora over btc  since for the project well being it is much better that the btc will stay in the hands of the developers of tau.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Counterfiat on April 03, 2016, 09:26:06 AM
The principle 'first do no harm' if applied in law gives a framework that provides for desirable long-term positive outcomes. For example the expression, 'we don't negotiate with terrorists' is not beneficial to those held captive, but removes motive for such heinous crimes into the future, saving many more lives and heartbreak. The way that common law has developed over time, is similar with respect to 'receiving stolen goods'. It takes away the ability to profit from such situations by giving the liability for the loss to the receiver of stolen goods. Therefore if we seek 'to do no harm', we seek to enact society's standards of preventing harm now and into the future.

If Ohad was to request all tokens 'received as stolen goods' be returned within seven days, there is legal precedent in the fairness of this action. If Ohad were then to say that though a receiver of stolen goods is to bear the loss in accordance with the laws of our land, however I am prepared to make a goodwill gesture by paying an amount equal to the cost in btc - This would be incredibly generous on Ohad's part. If further to this Ohad was to give a bounty, if returned in seven days, Foerster suggested 15%, then that would be way over and above what anyone could expect as a receiver of stolen goods.

To empower the receiver of stolen goods with a beneficiary interest, has been proven time and again over many centuries in the development of common law to be morally destructive.

Hence should the return of stolen property be done immediately without any further negotiation?

Ohad could choose to reserve some 500,000 tokens or more for potential legal costs, and generous bounties into the future. If these contingency coins are never used, then they are as good as destroyed in effect.

Thereby the way is now made clear to cancel all previous coins, redistributing new coins to only the deserving recipients, leaving out completely the stolen coins, except the contingency coins. This truly fits with the principle 'first do no harm' to the vast body of people involved in countless endeavours.



Disclaimer: these discussions might serve as preparatory thoughts for further discussions with a lawyer. I am in no way giving legal advice; now, beforehand or in the future with regards to any or all input I make. I suggest to seek professional legal advice and treat my comments as entertainment value only.



Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: e1ghtSpace on April 03, 2016, 10:52:02 AM
Thereby the way is now made clear to cancel all previous coins, redistributing new coins to only the deserving recipients, leaving out completely the stolen coins, except the contingency coins. This truly fits with the principle 'first do no harm' to the vast body of people involved in countless endeavours.


Disclaimer: these discussions might serve as preparatory thoughts for further discussions with a lawyer. I am in no way giving legal advice; now, beforehand or in the future with regards to any or all input I make. I suggest to seek professional legal advice and treat my comments as entertainment value only.
I like this idea, but only because it makes sure that Agoras tokens will not be valued less after this incident.
If some are given away it decreases the value of the current holders' coins because some coins are worth "nothing" due to being freely given away.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 03, 2016, 11:54:02 AM
assume we discredit the whole 21M rather only 20.5M (i.e. not sending new tokens also to the 500K holders).
you might claim that this is more justifiable (yet arguable).
but is it good from the *project's* point of view?
what is the project's best interest?

in addition, the 3% premine aren't meant to be mine personally. it is supposed to support the project for the long term (together with the presale funds).

last question: if the 500K were sold in 1% less than the market price (not 90% or so), would still reverting trades involving stolen goods was so important?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 03, 2016, 12:08:11 PM
breaking news: Dor is returning to me the 450K. he's doing it voluntarily.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Counterfiat on April 03, 2016, 12:16:47 PM
breaking news: Dor is returning to me the 450K. he's doing it voluntarily.


That is a great outcome.

Kudos to Dor!


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: rocanonz on April 03, 2016, 12:21:58 PM
Good news. We can move over now!
---
The project best interest it's to have Tau-Chain ready and inteligently crunching zeroes and ones, not today, not tommorow but yesterday, everyday :)


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr.coinzy on April 03, 2016, 12:25:53 PM
Dor is doing the right thing and i salute him for doing so.
If any of the other holders of stolen coins see this, please follow Dor's honorable example and do the right thing as well.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: martinzester on April 03, 2016, 03:00:19 PM
I bought them too and want to return
feeling sad for my loss buying them, ohad pm me plz


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 03, 2016, 03:53:23 PM
so as things stand now i think the easy thing to do is to send new tokens to all addresses except the 20.5M, and Dor will return the new tokens when he receives them. same for other bittrex buyers. this will also help us authenticate who actually bought from the dump.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: smaragda on April 03, 2016, 04:29:44 PM
breaking news: Dor is returning to me the 450K. he's doing it voluntarily.


http://oi65.tinypic.com/124ho48.jpg




Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jibble on April 03, 2016, 04:42:59 PM
so as things stand now i think the easy thing to do is to send new tokens to all addresses except the 20.5M, and Dor will return the new tokens when he receives them. same for other bittrex buyers. this will also help us authenticate who actually bought from the dump.

most buyers of the coins managed to get them for a considerably lower price than market value .

I and i don't think many other would be opposed to buyers who bought for extremely low prices to keep a small amount of their coins , to cover the cost of their bitcoin losses , at the rate of the actual coins value .

So if someone manage to buy the scammers coins for say 2 btc, but bought , 200,000, them being able to keep 2btc's worth at what the real current market value of agora is or was before the scam .



This helps those out that lost potential bitcoin from the buyer and doesn't affect the market or share of the coin drastically


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr001 on April 03, 2016, 05:36:28 PM
breaking news: Dor is returning to me the 450K. he's doing it voluntarily.
Dor is a good man! Our problems are nearly solved.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: DecentralizeEconomics on April 03, 2016, 06:27:29 PM
I think Dor, the CEO of Synereo, has proven his character and moral fiber to us by his actions.  It is nice to know that there are still people who do the right thing regardless of the monetary consequences.  I hope Ohad compensates Dor for his losses.  We all are fortunate that it was Dor who purchased the mass majority of the stolen tokens.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on April 03, 2016, 06:50:16 PM
breaking news: Dor is returning to me the 450K. he's doing it voluntarily.
A humbling example of integrity.
I'll remember it when Synereo's crowdsale starts.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: andyatcrux on April 03, 2016, 06:52:11 PM
breaking news: Dor is returning to me the 450K. he's doing it voluntarily.
A humbling example of integrity.
I'll remember it when Synereo's crowdsale starts.

Agreed. Hats off to Dor for this. Mad respect indeed. But I am not aware of any new crowdsale.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Shield on April 04, 2016, 06:10:35 AM
ohad
did martinzester returned coins  ???
if he did then how much coins he returned and how many total coins left


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 04, 2016, 11:14:31 AM
ohad
did martinzester returned coins  ???
if he did then how much coins he returned and how many total coins left

he bought directly from the scammer over the counter, not on bittrex.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: freedomfighter on April 04, 2016, 03:24:53 PM
didnt follow every word in the suddenly active thread..

BUT- isnt the simplest solution, especially when Dor returned his coins is to just issue a new coin with 42M and distribute to all current holders other to the thief's account and other than any other account that coins were transferred from the thief's account. If someone else is hurt from this he can write a private to Ohad who is honest and accomodating and will check better this time I am sure.... but the questionable coins are very few now. or maybe this was the solution already...? :-)

Also- the never ending ICO is a detriment to the project. what is the point? announce a final month, get done with it and have newly interested people buy in - in the free market.

since there will only be 10M coins for example after the burn, the value of each will eventually increase and a real market will start including an increased value for the project's funds to be able to finance marketing and maybe more dev's to expedite some issues.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 04, 2016, 03:34:19 PM
didnt follow every word in the suddenly active thread..

BUT- isnt the simplest solution, especially when Dor returned his coins is to just issue a new coin with 42M and distribute to all current holders other to the thief's account and other than any other account that coins were transferred from the thief's account. If someone else is hurt from this he can write a private to Ohad who is honest and accomodating and will check better this time I am sure.... but the questionable coins are very few now. or maybe this was the solution already...? :-)

yes, that's the solution indeed

Also- the never ending ICO is a detriment to the project. what is the point? announce a final month, get done with it and have newly interested people buy in - in the free market.

show me one decent tech startup that declared a date to end of funding ;)

since there will only be 10M coins for example after the burn, the value of each will eventually increase and a real market will start including an increased value for the project's funds to be able to finance marketing and maybe more dev's to expedite some issues.

but the project won't necessarily have the luxury of not spending the tokens before they reach the moon. we'll adjust the premine (and maybe other settings) in the future when it becomes more relevant


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: freedomfighter on April 04, 2016, 03:58:26 PM
Also- the never ending ICO is a detriment to the project. what is the point? announce a final month, get done with it and have newly interested people buy in - in the free market.

show me one decent tech startup that declared a date to end of funding ;)

Ethereum, counterparty, NXT, Maidsafe etc etc etc. I would increase the percentage of coins kept for the project (besides for the devs) and AS INTEREST grows in the project, i.e. demand, so will the price increase since the supply will be limited. Right now you basically offer unlimited supply+ some previous buyers sell (many times lower than you) and this holds down a healthy supply and demand curve. Ending the ICO will mean that supply becomes limited and since the project progresses, value should increase as not many previous holders will sell anymore + new comers will create demand that with less supply will translate to better value.

since there will only be 10M coins for example after the burn, the value of each will eventually increase and a real market will start including an increased value for the project's funds to be able to finance marketing and maybe more dev's to expedite some issues.

but the project won't necessarily have the luxury of not spending the tokens before they reach the moon. we'll adjust the premine (and maybe other settings) in the future when it becomes more relevant
[/quote]

That's why i suggest that you increase the project's share and differentiate between this and your personal coin holdings. for example if the "project" keeps 20% of the final number in an audit-able and transparent fashion it should have sufficient funding for some time and especially if the ETH like scenario plays out-:the ETH foundation now has funding for 5 years. All from the 42 days pre sale. from 14 cents to 11 dollars (no touring complete ofcourse...). If they were continue to sell for 2 years the value would still be 14 cents.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: lordoliver on April 04, 2016, 04:00:45 PM
Quote
Also- the never ending ICO is a detriment to the project. what is the point? announce a final month, get done with it and have newly interested people buy in - in the free market.

show me one decent tech startup that declared a date to end of funding ;)

Ethereum, counterparty, NXT, Maidsafe etc etc etc. I would increase the percentage of coins kept for the project (besides for the devs) and AS INTEREST grows in the project, i.e. demand, so will the price increase since the supply will be limited. Right now you basically offer unlimited supply+ some previous buyers sell (many times lower than you) and this holds down a healthy supply and demand curve. Ending the ICO will mean that supply becomes limited and since the project progresses, value should increase as not many previous holders will sell anymore + new comers will create demand that with less supply will translate to better value.

since there will only be 10M coins for example after the burn, the value of each will eventually increase and a real market will start including an increased value for the project's funds to be able to finance marketing and maybe more dev's to expedite some issues.

but the project won't necessarily have the luxury of not spending the tokens before they reach the moon. we'll adjust the premine (and maybe other settings) in the future when it becomes more relevant

That's why i suggest that you increase the project's share and differentiate between this and your personal coin holdings. for example if the "project" keeps 20% of the final number in an audit-able and transparent fashion it should have sufficient funding for some time and especially if the ETH like scenario plays out-:the ETH foundation now has funding for 5 years. All from the 42 days pre sale. from 14 cents to 11 dollars (no touring complete ofcourse...). If they were continue to sell for 2 years the value would still be 14 cents.

wasted energy. I told him many times already... stubborn..


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 04, 2016, 04:05:48 PM
Also- the never ending ICO is a detriment to the project. what is the point? announce a final month, get done with it and have newly interested people buy in - in the free market.

show me one decent tech startup that declared a date to end of funding ;)

Ethereum, counterparty, NXT, Maidsafe etc etc etc. I would increase the percentage of coins kept for the project (besides for the devs) and AS INTEREST grows in the project, i.e. demand, so will the price increase since the supply will be limited. Right now you basically offer unlimited supply+ some previous buyers sell (many times lower than you) and this holds down a healthy supply and demand curve. Ending the ICO will mean that supply becomes limited and since the project progresses, value should increase as not many previous holders will sell anymore + new comers will create demand that with less supply will translate to better value.

my question was still accurate, but let's have a look at dev startups outside the crypto world (which usually offer more complicated and more reliable developments). there are very good reasons they behave this way. long term dev and support aren't trivial to achieve or predict, aside putting more value (features) into the products which never ends.
i put some more elaboration on this point at www.idni.org/blog/projectroadmap

since there will only be 10M coins for example after the burn, the value of each will eventually increase and a real market will start including an increased value for the project's funds to be able to finance marketing and maybe more dev's to expedite some issues.

but the project won't necessarily have the luxury of not spending the tokens before they reach the moon. we'll adjust the premine (and maybe other settings) in the future when it becomes more relevant
[/quote]

That's why i suggest that you increase the project's share and differentiate between this and your personal coin holdings. for example if the "project" keeps 20% of the final number in an audit-able and transparent fashion it should have sufficient funding for some time and especially if the ETH like scenario plays out-:the ETH foundation now has funding for 5 years. All from the 42 days pre sale. from cents to 11 dollars (no touring complete ofcourse...). If they were continue to sell for 2 years the value would still be 14 cents.
[/quote]

this might make sense, but i think it's too soon. i think that after tau is ready and have a stable network we'll be much smarter, and also be able to make decisions collaboratively over tau (during the implementation of agoras).


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Kartaba on April 04, 2016, 04:11:19 PM
I think Dor, the CEO of Synereo, has proven his character and moral fiber to us by his actions.  It is nice to know that there are still people who do the right thing regardless of the monetary consequences.  I hope Ohad compensates Dor for his losses.  We all are fortunate that it was Dor who purchased the mass majority of the stolen tokens.

Agree 100%, i am glad everything worked out nicely. I would like to thank the dev of synereo for being an upstanding person, much respect.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: martinzester on April 04, 2016, 06:33:48 PM
ohad
did martinzester returned coins  ???
if he did then how much coins he returned and how many total coins left

he bought directly from the scammer over the counter, not on bittrex.
I have sent tokens to him yesterday when I found they were stolen tokens,I was getting into agoras but got scammed by someone who sold me those tokens.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: kamvreto on April 04, 2016, 07:00:57 PM
still cant close buy order at bittrex !!! >:( >:(


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 04, 2016, 08:04:20 PM
still cant close buy order at bittrex !!! >:( >:(

i'm waiting for omni dev now for the distribution script. once it'll be ready, bittrex will get back alive right away. no latter than tomorrow, i hope


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Counterfiat on April 05, 2016, 04:09:48 AM
The principle 'first do no harm' if applied in law gives a framework that provides for desirable long-term positive outcomes. For example the expression, 'we don't negotiate with terrorists' is not beneficial to those held captive, but removes motive for such heinous crimes into the future, saving many more lives and heartbreak. The way that common law has developed over time, is similar with respect to 'receiving stolen goods'. It takes away the ability to profit from such situations by giving the liability for the loss to the receiver of stolen goods. Therefore if we seek 'to do no harm', we seek to enact society's standards of preventing harm now and into the future.

If Ohad was to request all tokens 'received as stolen goods' be returned within seven days, there is legal precedent in the fairness of this action. If Ohad were then to say that though a receiver of stolen goods is to bear the loss in accordance with the laws of our land, however I am prepared to make a goodwill gesture by paying an amount equal to the cost in btc - This would be incredibly generous on Ohad's part. If further to this Ohad was to give a bounty, if returned in seven days, Foerster suggested 15%, then that would be way over and above what anyone could expect as a receiver of stolen goods.

To empower the receiver of stolen goods with a beneficiary interest, has been proven time and again over many centuries in the development of common law to be morally destructive.

Hence should the return of stolen property be done immediately without any further negotiation?

Ohad could choose to reserve some 500,000 tokens or more for potential legal costs, and generous bounties into the future. If these contingency coins are never used, then they are as good as destroyed in effect.

Thereby the way is now made clear to cancel all previous coins, redistributing new coins to only the deserving recipients, leaving out completely the stolen coins, except the contingency coins. This truly fits with the principle 'first do no harm' to the vast body of people involved in countless endeavours.



Disclaimer: these discussions might serve as preparatory thoughts for further discussions with a lawyer. I am in no way giving legal advice; now, beforehand or in the future with regards to any or all input I make. I suggest to seek professional legal advice and treat my comments as entertainment value only.




I thought it was important to outline the legal and moral stance behind asking the question -

"Hence should the return of stolen property be done immediately without any further negotiation?"

Less than three hours later the question was resolved - with announcement of ~ 95% tokens to be returned.


I hope my post was helpful in some way.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Counterfiat on April 05, 2016, 04:34:55 AM
I just spoke with Dor, the person who bought most of the 500K.
He wasn't aware at all to the discussion here as he's getting ready for a travel. Once I told him that there is some criticism here etc., he presented a *great* will to resolve everything. He will do whatever takes.
We have to bear in mind that after all, he's not the only buyer at that low prices, and it's not fair that other buyers will profit and he wouldn't.
Let's raise some ideas how to resolve it in a fair peaceful way, and let's give it a day or two.

Giving the BTC back to the buyers isn't an issue: if decided, I'll pay it fully, as it is all my fault.


But ofcourse everything was done professionally behind the scenes between Ohad and Dor themselves, one can expect.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: enhu on April 05, 2016, 06:59:14 AM
I don't see any specification of this coin why.
I cna see however the IPO is still open and anyone can still buy right?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on April 05, 2016, 12:06:48 PM
I don't see any specification of this coin why.
There is no formal specification for Agora at the moment. The spec will likely be written directly in Tau logic when Tau-chain (the distributed plateform on which Agora will be running) is live. In the mean time, you can read the Tau whitepaper (http://tauchain.org/tauchain.pdf) that covers the design of the Tau programming language and gives some hints of what the Tau-chain plateform will look like. You can also look at the Zennet thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.0) (the earlier iteration of Agora) which gives a lot of technical details on the distributed computing model that Agora will be using. You will find a lot more information on IDNI (http://www.idni.org/), Tauchain (http://tauchain.org/) and Zennet (http://zennet.sc/)'s websites as well as on this thread.

I cna see however the IPO is still open and anyone can still buy right?
The presale is momentarily suspended due to the theft of some of the presale funds.
The Agora tokens are currently being reissued as a new asset (asset id 58 on Omni)
Trading will resume some time this week or next. Follow this thread for more information.
Since the current asset tokens (asset id 35 on Omni) will soon be invalidated, do not purchase these tokens from anyone


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: andyatcrux on April 05, 2016, 09:10:38 PM
still cant close buy order at bittrex !!! >:( >:(


Ooh, double frowny. I think you conveyed your dissatisfaction with the situation,  :D.

 Seriously though if that is the case than perhaps Bittrex could be swayed to hit the reset button if enough people messaged them. I doubt anyone wants to keep their buy orders open at this point.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 06, 2016, 01:30:56 AM
new tokens sent.
waiting for bittrex to resume trade.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: tobeaj2mer01 on April 06, 2016, 06:37:54 AM
new tokens sent.
waiting for bittrex to resume trade.

What's the new token's name? It's still Agoras? How can  I distinguish it from my old one?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: smaragda on April 06, 2016, 08:03:15 AM
new tokens sent.
waiting for bittrex to resume trade.

What's the new token's name? It's still Agoras? How can  I distinguish it from my old one?

IDNI Agoras (58)

Do a Balance Check (https://www.omniwallet.org/) for your address and you should see both tokens listed; Agoras Tokens (35) is void.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: cryptoman77777 on April 06, 2016, 09:47:12 AM
I can't close a buy order on bittrex   :(

when is the problem solved and will be open bidding?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 06, 2016, 11:24:01 AM
guess it's better to destroy the old tokens (asset id 35), at least addresses with high amounts.
so either send them to me to 14gF3Up7wdRdkxAL4GgQLdnM8CThgDUSHR, and if you sent me by mistake the good asset (58), i can send back to the sending address.
or you can also burn the old asset (35) directly to 1PrevAgorasXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXYBAVyY if you're certain you won't do any mistake.
i understand that this might cost some nontrivial fees, so don't bother too much especially if you hold low amounts.
it's just better for people to see that this old token is mostly burnt.

again, this is all optional. except for the scammer, in which it's mandatory to return all tokens, unless he wants to get into deeper legal troubles.
do not follow the above instructions for coins you hold on bittrex.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: regexlove on April 06, 2016, 08:01:25 PM
Sorry,
generally: So the new token will mirror the old one until march29?  Is Bittrex still wondering to reverse and hopefully paused scammer's account or did the scammer withdraw bitcoin?   If he withdrew, will Ohad cover bitcoins spent on march 30, which would let the market resume closest to as it was.  (Or will bitcoins spend be covered through tokens converted to a a fixed rate like 0.00050 in consensus with everyone?)  (- both march30-solutions do not consider the possibility that the scammer foresaw this and bought cheap tokes from himself with other bittrex accounts)


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 06, 2016, 09:31:10 PM
Sorry,
generally: So the new token will mirror the old one until march29?  Is Bittrex still wondering to reverse and hopefully paused scammer's account or did the scammer withdraw bitcoin?   If he withdrew, will Ohad cover bitcoins spent on march 30, which would let the market resume closest to as it was.  (Or will bitcoins spend be covered through tokens converted to a a fixed rate like 0.00050 in consensus with everyone?)  (- both march30-solutions do not consider the possibility that the scammer foresaw this and bought cheap tokes from himself with other bittrex accounts)

we just credited all addresses with exactly same amounts they have, except the 20.5M address and where it sent to.
Dor volunteered to return ~450K out of the 500K sold on bittrex, which he bought unintentionally.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Coinsulter on April 06, 2016, 11:04:15 PM
Sorry,
generally: So the new token will mirror the old one until march29?  Is Bittrex still wondering to reverse and hopefully paused scammer's account or did the scammer withdraw bitcoin?   If he withdrew, will Ohad cover bitcoins spent on march 30, which would let the market resume closest to as it was.  (Or will bitcoins spend be covered through tokens converted to a a fixed rate like 0.00050 in consensus with everyone?)  (- both march30-solutions do not consider the possibility that the scammer foresaw this and bought cheap tokes from himself with other bittrex accounts)

we just credited all addresses with exactly same amounts they have, except the 20.5M address and where it sent to.
Dor volunteered to return ~450K out of the 500K sold on bittrex, which he bought unintentionally.

Dor is an extremely honest and honourable individual. Not too many people would of done that. Respect.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: kartilago on April 07, 2016, 12:13:08 PM
So is it AGRS tokens in Bittrex changed yet?
Mine not, I still have my old AGRS.
Sorry for my poor english.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 07, 2016, 12:16:18 PM
So is it AGRS tokens in Bittrex changed yet?
Mine not, I still have my old AGRS.
Sorry for my poor english.

bittrex began yesterday to put back the market. guess they'll finish today


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Pofick on April 08, 2016, 06:36:24 PM
So is it AGRS tokens in Bittrex changed yet?
Mine not, I still have my old AGRS.
Mine too. I have old AGRS Tokens.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: YNWA2806 on April 08, 2016, 09:07:46 PM
Ohad whats going on?? when will the trading start?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 08, 2016, 09:10:35 PM
Ohad whats going on?? when will the trading start?

no idea, waiting for answers from bittrex


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 09, 2016, 01:07:07 AM
market is back on bittrex. i informed them about withdrawals sending the old tokens.
EDIT: i tried to withdraw and it worked correctly (asset 58). bittrex says everything is fine.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 09, 2016, 05:29:27 AM
summary about the token replacement published on the blog http://www.idni.org/blog/replacingtheintermediatetokens


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr001 on April 09, 2016, 07:56:03 AM
market is back on bittrex. i informed them about withdrawals sending the old tokens.
EDIT: i tried to withdraw and it worked correctly (asset 58). bittrex says everything is fine.
Market is back, but my tokens was not changed on Bittrex. I have still the AgorasToken (AGRS).


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr001 on April 09, 2016, 10:50:17 AM
I see people is still trading wit the old Agoras. This ist not professional. What does Bittrex ?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ?chooseusername on April 09, 2016, 10:58:58 AM
market is back on bittrex. i informed them about withdrawals sending the old tokens.
EDIT: i tried to withdraw and it worked correctly (asset 58). bittrex says everything is fine.
Could you please specify if AGRS holders need to do anything? I always kept mines in Bittrex. Thanks


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Pofick on April 09, 2016, 01:43:16 PM
I still have old AgorasToken (AGRS) on bittrex (I've never withdraw them to omni wallet). What should I do with them?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr001 on April 09, 2016, 03:35:25 PM
Ryan von Bittrex wrote to me:
"Hi, What is the issue? You had AGRS and still have AGRS tokens. What do you expect it to change to? Ryan"
Dear Ohad,
please can you explain us what should we do?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 09, 2016, 05:36:49 PM
I see people is still trading wit the old Agoras. This ist not professional. What does Bittrex ?

where?

Ryan von Bittrex wrote to me:
"Hi, What is the issue? You had AGRS and still have AGRS tokens. What do you expect it to change to? Ryan"
Dear Ohad,
please can you explain us what should we do?

I still have old AgorasToken (AGRS) on bittrex (I've never withdraw them to omni wallet). What should I do with them?

please explain how do you know that bittrex gives you old rather new tokens



maybe the confusion is that bittrex still calls it AgorasTokens even though it's asset 58 (the new and correct one). i asked them to rename it to IDNI Agoras.

---- renaming done


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: YNWA2806 on April 09, 2016, 06:38:55 PM
So the new name is Asset 58


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: YNWA2806 on April 09, 2016, 06:39:42 PM
Are you sending new ones for every account?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 09, 2016, 06:40:16 PM
Are you sending new ones for every account?

already sent, all done


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr001 on April 09, 2016, 06:45:41 PM
Now at Bittrex it calls also IDNI Agoras.  ;D


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: YNWA2806 on April 09, 2016, 11:13:48 PM
Are you sending new ones for every account?

already sent, all done

Don't see it on bittrex


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 09, 2016, 11:26:32 PM
Are you sending new ones for every account?

already sent, all done

Don't see it on bittrex

what do you see on bittrex?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: d-trix on April 09, 2016, 11:36:21 PM
Mine were automatically swapped by bittrex without a problem.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Sam123 on April 10, 2016, 04:44:42 AM
Got Mine.
Thanks


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: YNWA2806 on April 10, 2016, 02:47:42 PM
See it now, thanx


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Sam123 on April 11, 2016, 07:40:28 PM
Ohad,

What is YOUR current price please: Is it 20 cents or still 17 cents?
Thanks


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 11, 2016, 08:22:52 PM
Ohad,

What is YOUR current price please: Is it 20 cents or still 17 cents?
Thanks

20


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: skrtel37 on April 12, 2016, 07:03:17 AM

Now with the tokens replaced to AGORA'S IDNI, when will they be converted to the real coins?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: BoscoMurray on April 12, 2016, 11:19:10 AM

Now with the tokens replaced to AGORA'S IDNI, when will they be converted to the real coins?

A page or two back in the thread I believe Ohad says it could be up to a year. The focus for now is tau-chain development.

Ohad, it might be worth adding an FAQ to the OP.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: skrtel37 on April 12, 2016, 11:46:03 AM

Now with the tokens replaced to AGORA'S IDNI, when will they be converted to the real coins?

A page or two back in the thread I believe Ohad says it could be up to a year. The focus for now is tau-chain development.

Ohad, it might be worth adding an FAQ to the OP.

More important then that IMO is to enlist some more devs so no one precedes TAU achieving its goals.....in crypto you cant relay on 1 year from now....everything could happen


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Pofick on April 12, 2016, 05:47:37 PM
In this blogpost (http://www.idni.org/blog/projectroadmap) it is said that: "...from Apr 1 the price per token will be 20 cents, going up 5% monthly".
But now it is Apr 12 and price is around 14 cents still. I do not like it.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 12, 2016, 06:19:50 PM
In this blogpost (http://www.idni.org/blog/projectroadmap) it is said that: "...from Apr 1 the price per token will be 20 cents, going up 5% monthly".
But now it is Apr 12 and price is around 14 cents still. I do not like it.

clarified there


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 12, 2016, 06:20:19 PM

Now with the tokens replaced to AGORA'S IDNI, when will they be converted to the real coins?

A page or two back in the thread I believe Ohad says it could be up to a year. The focus for now is tau-chain development.

Ohad, it might be worth adding an FAQ to the OP.

More important then that IMO is to enlist some more devs so no one precedes TAU achieving its goals.....in crypto you cant relay on 1 year from now....everything could happen

all info is well reorganized now while working on a new website


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: nexus20001 on April 12, 2016, 07:09:53 PM
Ohad, will Tau-Chain be ready in the next month?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 12, 2016, 07:18:46 PM
Ohad, will Tau-Chain be ready in the next month?

at the most optimistic case we'll then have a release candidate for the compiler


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: nexus20001 on April 12, 2016, 08:32:10 PM
Tau-Chain = compiler or something bigger?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: zeca pagodinho on April 12, 2016, 10:15:09 PM
Hello, Ohad!
Is there a place where I can study this new language?
I can test it there?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 13, 2016, 02:50:04 AM
Tau-Chain = compiler or something bigger?

tau is a language that encapsulate all its abilities, and the compiler translates it to machine code. see www.idni.org/blog/projectroadmap

Hello, Ohad!
Is there a place where I can study this new language?
I can test it there?

the syntax is rdf family, notably notation3, turtle, ntriples/nquads.
tau adds mltt typesystem over rdfs and by that recovers owl (and decidable consistency), but that has nothing to do with the syntax.
playing with cwm/euler(eye) is a great introduction.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: kartilago on April 13, 2016, 08:17:07 AM
Tau-Chain = compiler or something bigger?

tau is a language that encapsulate all its abilities, and the compiler translates it to machine code. see www.idni.org/blog/projectroadmap

Hello, Ohad!
Is there a place where I can study this new language?
I can test it there?

the syntax is rdf family, notably notation3, turtle, ntriples/nquads.
tau adds mltt typesystem over rdfs and by that recovers owl (and decidable consistency), but that has nothing to do with the syntax.
playing with cwm/euler(eye) is a great introduction.

I am very interested in tau language too. Do you think if it would be very difficult to learn for a classic background programmer?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 13, 2016, 08:27:55 AM
Tau-Chain = compiler or something bigger?

tau is a language that encapsulate all its abilities, and the compiler translates it to machine code. see www.idni.org/blog/projectroadmap

Hello, Ohad!
Is there a place where I can study this new language?
I can test it there?

the syntax is rdf family, notably notation3, turtle, ntriples/nquads.
tau adds mltt typesystem over rdfs and by that recovers owl (and decidable consistency), but that has nothing to do with the syntax.
playing with cwm/euler(eye) is a great introduction.

I am very interested in tau language too. Do you think if it would be very difficult to learn for a classic background programmer?

here's a good introductory video to the semantic web https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhgUDGtT2EM
tau language is semantic web language, featuring extra features but to get familiar with the language, the resources are vast


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 13, 2016, 08:41:14 AM
i found this on google, i have no idea who the guy is and i dont understand a single word in spanish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGUWlAxeEaA  but he definitely speaks about the same tauchain we know


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: skrtel37 on April 13, 2016, 11:15:39 AM

Hey Ohad aren't you afraid that by the time you'll finish the code someone else we greater resources will fork it?
Did you consider adding another dev?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: bitcoinpropaganda on April 13, 2016, 02:00:26 PM
i found this on google, i have no idea who the guy is and i dont understand a single word in spanish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGUWlAxeEaA  but he definitely speaks about the same tauchain we know


He sees a very promising future for your coin. In fact, I might buy some just because of him.




Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: bytemuma on April 13, 2016, 02:33:02 PM
i found this on google, i have no idea who the guy is and i dont understand a single word in spanish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGUWlAxeEaA  but he definitely speaks about the same tauchain we know


He sees a very promising future for your coin. In fact, I might buy some just because of him.




I fully understand spanish, and he compares tau chain with bitcoin in the early days, he said that had a couple of opportunities to become a millionaire, but despite he believed in that, he blew it... :(

But with Tau is going to wait to see the real thing. ;D


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: martinzester on April 13, 2016, 07:23:09 PM
I was victim of recent agoras scam and lost my money, lost my hope as well
good luck all


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Pofick on April 13, 2016, 07:43:03 PM
Would it be possible to create a decentralized collaborative organization (DCO) inside tau chain? I am pretty excited by BackFeed project despite that they haven't launched it yet. I think that DCOs have huge potential, especially being ruled by voting majority based on decentralized reputation rather just value tokens.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jasemoney on April 13, 2016, 09:35:07 PM
I was victim of recent agoras scam and lost my money, lost my hope as well
good luck all
What are you talking about? If you had agoras you still have agoras. The only person without agoras is the scammer.
They re-issued asset 58 on omni with all previous balances except the scammer and abandoned asset 35. And if u had on bittrex they migrated balances.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Xaltotun on April 13, 2016, 09:59:41 PM
I was victim of recent agoras scam and lost my money, lost my hope as well
good luck all
What are you talking about? If you had agoras you still have agoras. The only person without agoras is the scammer.
They re-issued asset 58 on omni with all previous balances except the scammer and abandoned asset 35. And if u had on bittrex they migrated balances.

He somehow got in contact with the scammer and did a personal trade with them. I feel bad for them but you might as well blame bitcoin for what is their own mistake.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: mr.coinzy on April 13, 2016, 10:33:37 PM
When making any sort of investment (in crypto and otherwise) it is the sole responsibility of the investor to make all the necessary inquiries. It is very unfortunate that some people managed to get scammed by this low life individual.
I do hope the lesson learned will prevent any further loss.
Fortunately for all (including any of the people affected), it is still early enough to make an investment and take part in a project that will make a real impact. Vast rewards will surely follow over time.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: klosure on April 14, 2016, 05:00:15 AM
More important then that IMO is to enlist some more devs so no one precedes TAU achieving its goals.....in crypto you cant relay on 1 year from now....everything could happen
Tau is an open language with no strings attached. Why would someone want to fork it if they can get what they want much faster by simply contributing to its development?
It's like worrying that someone is going to fork Python. Could happen, but then you just end up with two languages with their own merits. The more the merrier.



Title: Re: [PRE-ANN] Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Zenyoguibit on April 14, 2016, 03:48:32 PM
Code and Money: Which Comes First?
http://www.idni.org/blog/code-and-money
You guys are doing a fantastic and promising project, in my opinion it's better than Ethereum,  I am so curious why there is so less activity in this thread.
Wow!!!, I thing u r on the right, seems to possible that what you say becomes thruth?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ICOcountdown.com on April 14, 2016, 04:56:48 PM
Can someone tell me more about this project is it an ICO? Details would be welcome someone has contacted me regarding listing it on http://icocountdown.com

alex@icocountdown.com
Skype: icocountdown
Twitter: https://twitter.com/ICOcountdown


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 14, 2016, 05:17:47 PM
Can someone tell me more about this project is it an ICO? Details would be welcome someone has contacted me regarding listing it on http://icocountdown.com

alex@icocountdown.com
Skype: icocountdown
Twitter: https://twitter.com/ICOcountdown

thanks, got your message on "contact us", will get back to you soon


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 14, 2016, 10:56:25 PM
due to the recent events we postpone the raise from 17 cents to 20 cents from 1 apr to 1 may


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ICOcountdown.com on April 14, 2016, 11:40:49 PM
Agoras added to http://icocountdown.com very exciting project! Good luck on the fundraising!


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: tobeaj2mer01 on April 15, 2016, 02:06:47 AM
due to the recent events we postpone the raise from 17 cents to 20 cents from 1 apr to 1 may

When will the ICO be closed?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 15, 2016, 02:48:52 AM
due to the recent events we postpone the raise from 17 cents to 20 cents from 1 apr to 1 may

When will the ICO be closed?

no date for now


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Zenyoguibit on April 15, 2016, 04:41:56 AM
The Agoras Tokens (AGRS) on Bittrex will be final Agoras? I mean, u r on ICO rigth now n´the agrs it´s ok foy buy?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 15, 2016, 04:46:32 AM
The Agoras Tokens (AGRS) on Bittrex will be final Agoras? I mean, u r on ICO rigth now n´the agrs it´s ok foy buy?

yes, AGRS on bittrex is the right thing


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: loveyouforever on April 15, 2016, 07:11:48 AM
due to the recent events we postpone the raise from 17 cents to 20 cents from 1 apr to 1 may

When will the ICO be closed?

no date for now

No one wants to invest in a coin without ICO end date.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 15, 2016, 07:12:45 AM
due to the recent events we postpone the raise from 17 cents to 20 cents from 1 apr to 1 may

When will the ICO be closed?

no date for now

No one wants to invest in a coin without ICO end date.

a date will be somewhere in the future, they can wait till then


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: qingfengyeah on April 15, 2016, 12:56:46 PM
The Agoras Tokens (AGRS) on Bittrex will be final Agoras? I mean, u r on ICO rigth now n´the agrs it´s ok foy buy?

yes, AGRS on bittrex is the right thing

due to the recent events we postpone the raise from 17 cents to 20 cents from 1 apr to 1 may

When will the ICO be closed?

no date for now

No one wants to invest in a coin without ICO end date.

a date will be somewhere in the future, they can wait till then

You sell Agoras on bittrex is the bad thing, You have no morals. You are manipulating the price, Chinese community does not welcome you! I will write an article in Chinese about your behavior, Tau-Chain and Agoras will not succeed in the Chinese community. 中国数字货币协会志愿成员


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Xaltotun on April 15, 2016, 01:42:03 PM
Ohad, there are some of us that have actually read the terms have always known agoras ico is pegged to the dollar and that value can change. Those that can read, accept the risk and those who cannot complain.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jasemoney on April 15, 2016, 01:51:04 PM
Longer waiting is higher price to buy in. I figure at some point enough will be developed that the price catches up to ico price or there will be enough done to end the ico and move on to the agoras/tau. Until then enjoy cheaper coins on bittrex. It's unconventional ico but ohad and the team has stood by it for many many months.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Kartaba on April 15, 2016, 01:53:10 PM

You sell Agoras on bittrex is the bad thing, You have no morals. You are manipulating the price, Chinese community does not welcome you! I will write an article in Chinese about your behavior, Tau-Chain and Agoras will not succeed in the Chinese community. 中国数字货币协会志愿成员

[/quote]

I don't think that there is any price manipulation going on here. You can buy small quantities of AGRS on Bittrex, a bit cheaper then directly from Ohad. If you want to buy bigger quantities, you buy directly from Ohad.

But go right ahead and write your article. Agora/Tau-Chain will be successful with or without support from the Chinese Community. When the true value of this project emerges (which will take time), you will come running..
I'm surprised to hear you talk about 'morals', since it is the big Chinese miners that are destroying Bitcoin because of their relentless greedeness.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jibble on April 15, 2016, 02:12:24 PM


You sell Agoras on bittrex is the bad thing, You have no morals. You are manipulating the price, Chinese community does not welcome you! I will write an article in Chinese about your behavior, Tau-Chain and Agoras will not succeed in the Chinese community. 中国数字货币协会志愿成员


yeah cos the chinese are world famous for their integrity and lack of manipulation in crypto currency trading   ::)


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: qingfengyeah on April 15, 2016, 05:15:30 PM
Because http://www.idni.org/pre-sale is ERROR , the requested URL could not be retrieved. And I can't read. But a coin without ICO end date and repeatedly raise price. Investors have no Right to Know.


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 15, 2016, 05:18:43 PM
Because http://www.idni.org/pre-sale is ERROR , the requested URL could not be retrieved.

works here


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Sam123 on April 15, 2016, 05:34:54 PM
The Agoras Tokens (AGRS) on Bittrex will be final Agoras? I mean, u r on ICO rigth now n´the agrs it´s ok foy buy?

yes, AGRS on bittrex is the right thing

Are you going to start ico on bittrex (with high volume)? I believe this was you plan few weeks ago
Thanks


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: ohad on April 15, 2016, 05:38:05 PM
The Agoras Tokens (AGRS) on Bittrex will be final Agoras? I mean, u r on ICO rigth now n´the agrs it´s ok foy buy?

yes, AGRS on bittrex is the right thing

Are you going to start ico on bittrex (with high volume)? I believe this was you plan few weeks ago
Thanks

yes we still check this option too with bittrex (btw the volumes can't be controlled by us)


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jasemoney on April 15, 2016, 06:56:41 PM
The Agoras Tokens (AGRS) on Bittrex will be final Agoras? I mean, u r on ICO rigth now n´the agrs it´s ok foy buy?

yes, AGRS on bittrex is the right thing

Are you going to start ico on bittrex (with high volume)? I believe this was you plan few weeks ago
Thanks

yes we still check this option too with bittrex (btw the volumes can't be controlled by us)
I don't understand this question.
The ico is on bittrex. The sell wall is at 17 cents
Instead of a closed market it's just open for trading.
Volume depends on people buying/selling who can tell if there will be high volume.
Are you asking ohad to stop selling bulk quantities on his website (which are the same price as bittrex sell wall) and move the entire presale to bittrex?


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: Sam123 on April 15, 2016, 11:03:53 PM
The Agoras Tokens (AGRS) on Bittrex will be final Agoras? I mean, u r on ICO rigth now n´the agrs it´s ok foy buy?

yes, AGRS on bittrex is the right thing

Are you going to start ico on bittrex (with high volume)? I believe this was you plan few weeks ago
Thanks

yes we still check this option too with bittrex (btw the volumes can't be controlled by us)
I don't understand this question.
The ico is on bittrex. The sell wall is at 17 cents
Instead of a closed market it's just open for trading.
Volume depends on people buying/selling who can tell if there will be high volume.
Are you asking ohad to stop selling bulk quantities on his website (which are the same price as bittrex sell wall) and move the entire presale to bittrex?

Never mind. Sorry for the confusion.
Thanks


Title: Re: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network
Post by: jasemoney on April 16, 2016, 12:30:26 AM
The Agoras Tokens (AGRS) on Bittrex will be final Agoras? I mean, u r on ICO rigth now n´the agrs it´s ok foy buy?

yes, AGRS on bittrex is the right thing

Are you going to start ico on bittrex (with high volume)? I believe this was you plan few weeks ago
Thanks

yes we still check this option too with bittrex (btw the volumes can'