Bitcoin Forum

In the whole Bitcoinica fiasco, it seems that the angry mobs are directing their ire at genjix and zhoutong, while the other Intersango guys (the CEO & CTO, no less!!!) haven't even made any attempt to communicate professionally with their customers.

On the other hand, neither genjix nor zhoutong apparently had a major role in Bitcoinica in the last few months of its existence, yet they have been the most reponsive to customers.

To my knowledge, no evidence exists to support the theory that genjix had any malicious intent. I'm sure anyone who has met him in person can vouch for his openness and dedication to Bitcoin projects.

Don't know about you guys, but to me it seems that the youngest two kids in the bunch have been thrown to the wolves.
 
Let's act and think rationally, not based on emotions.

+1

genjix is one of the coolest guys in the community. He has been involved in open source projects and has been an activist before and outside of Bitcoin, which is pretty much proof of his character. None of the developments had any direct ties with him, other than him being part of the organization. He's been the only person who's been open, and I'm sure he would've been even more open out of principle if not restrained by other obligations. I wish he had been more vigilant about the affairs others were dealing with, which might have prevented most of the fiasco, but I'm sure the organizational structure prevented him from being so, and hindsight is always 20/20.

I met genjix before, so I might be biased. However, I also have not gotten any of my money back from Bitcoinica, so hopefully that would counteract the bias.

Based on the postings genjix made regarding Bitcoinica, he did not have access to the funds. Please consider that if not anything else.

On a somewhat lighter note, kindly note that genjix, unlike someone else, did not demand "fucking respect" from complaining customers.

Of course I dont think he had any malicious intent, however..

In my opinion, as long as he is not working on the priority (which is involving himself on the bitcoinica mess) he can do better.

For example, compiling & saving and checking / finishing the claims ? Forcing his intersango mates to act ?

That doesnt mean of course that Donald and Patrick are doing any better, far from it.

I wont even comment on the fact that he leaked the sources.

As long as this issue is not solved in a satisfactory manner for the creditors, I would say that he deserves the heat.

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If I am thinking rationnaly any person involved with the bitcoinica fiasco should work actively towards helping the creditors. Thats a matter of both personnal image, responsability and professionnalism.

That doesnt mean that you cant take a few days off, but all others major projects should be put aside.

I see the whole thing as BitcoinConsultancy being handed a bomb that exploded in their hands, and then every prick doing nothing but shitting on them endlessly (in the hope that will get them their money back) while they try to clean up a mess someone else made, and then they get fucked again (by an insider).

I'm only surprised they haven't come out and told everyone to go and fuck themselves. I'm not surprised that they have not come forward to take what was stolen bitcoin as that would only implicate them in handling stolen goods, and really after the shit they have gotten do you blame them for throwing in the towel?

Really the way everyone, their mother and their dog has been hurling shit (and threats) at them (specifically at genjix, simply because he's engaged with people about it, and this is what he gets) makes me sick.

I genuinely think genjix would rather starve than steal or use stolen funds if it came to it, he is honest to a fault.

And this ... fucking mob, they turn on anyone who isn't behind them (started making accusations about me being colluding with the Intersango guys), it's disgusting.

Now prepare for the mob to descend upon this thread.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/24381994.jpg

Are you refering to the creditors as "prick" ?

Do you know how many very polite unanswered mails some of us have sent ?

Do you really think telling creditors to fuck themselves is a good idea ?

+1

+1

Wow, you lost all my respect with this post.

I hope you learn from this.

Show me where I'm wrong bro.

It's not that you're wrong, but the clusterfuck is Bitcoinica's responsibility, not the creditors. Even if they were innocent of malice, in my humble opinion they should have hired a professional to deal with the PR and with the claims. Instead, they apparently were overwhelmed, screwed up both the PR and the claims and then just gave up.

Tihan claims the trio had operational responsiblity when the fails happened. Hiring other professionals who can fix the mess would have then been fully up to the trio. That would have been a proper, mature and responsible course of action. I'm sure there are accountants and IT specialists in the community who would have helped if asked.

I think they're being made scapegoats, and they've tried to deal with it as best they could. You also assume they had the kinds of funds available to them at the time to be able to hire someone else to do PR and claims; unless they use funds from users this is not the case.

Use your analogy, if someone give you a bomb and you take it, who is it to blame?

Not only you're wrong, but you make bunch of assumptions.

I'm not even gonna bother why you call Bitcoinica a "bomb".

Tihan has said it clearly himself that Intersango guys are exclusively responsible for Bitcoinica. I dont care what is the deal between them. Its in their best interest.

You dont call Bitcoinica customers ... pricks. Is that your attitude to your clients? No one from Bitcoinica  did what they promise (refunding customers money). Instead they point fingers between themselves. Throwing a towel shows they cant keep their words with Tihan either. Ever have a contractor working on your home? Most of crooks accept the job then walk out based on the very same reason .... they got themselves a "bomb". Who the fck is to blame but themselves? Can any rational person defend their action?

Whats your personal opinion/experience with Genjix is irrelevant. You called ppl hurling mobs but you present a bandwagon to jump on. "genjix would rather starve than steal or use stolen funds if it came to it, he is honest to a fault"

Again, you can believe what you want. But calling other ppl ...pricks for believing otherwise is fcking childish.

Why did they take it over in the first place ?

Trying your best isn't good enough for bitcoinica customers.

Either you perform to the satisfaction of the customers or you don't.

But the intersango guys gave up so they get a big fat 0.

I don't think people are taking it personal against any of them, or at least they shouldn't be.  Especially genjix as the responses I received from genjix in the beginning of this mess seemed to be fast and courteous, I have also observed this in the forums.

As for intersango being handed a ticking time bomb,  they are to the best of my knowledge all grown men, who agreed to a legal obligation to assume operational control of a company.  The state that company was in is pretty much irrelevant, as they had their chance to do their DD and accept or pass on the deal.

Then phantomcircuit goes and starts demanding respect and defending their actions.  Saying silly things like,  the site is being exploited and that's the most important thing on their plates.  Well in this case, the data they were trying to protect was not only compromised, it was lost completely.  In light of the data being lost completely, a compromise doesn't sound so bad.

Personally i don't know any of them,  don't personally wish them any ill will.  As operators of bitcoinica though, they were / are complete fail.   I think they would save more face at this point by admitting they were wrong and being as helpful as possible to return people their funds, but they choose to be defensive and seem to no longer be facilitating the return of customer funds.

I personally have several hundred coins mixed up in this mess so I know first hand how aggravating this can be, and why at this point, the mob is the mob.  I didn't even say a peep for a month or more, they really did have their chance, I believe a lot of other people also gave them the same courtesy.  


teek

If they couldn't handle it, they should not have taken any responsibility in the first place. They must have been aware of the absence of backups and so on. If it turned out later that it's worse, it just means they have a poor judgement.

First of all, I'm sure there are community members who would have offered help even for free.

Edit: also, using opportunity costs, if it helped them to get Bitcoinica operate earlier, that might have been a more profitable course of action even if the hired personnel was not free. If Bitcoinica cannot operate, it cannot generate revenue. If the foregone profit exceeds the salary of the hired person, hiring is preferable.

Furthermore, even if they didn't find assistance with available funds, the more sound course of action would have been receivership (which we now have anyway) rather than doing a crappy job. Just dragging it while the situation deteriorates is irresponsible.

If you take on more responsibility than you can handle, it's your problem. Your customers don't judge you on your intentions but on your performance.

Let's stick with the Bomb analogy:

1) They knew it was a bomb. (By doing the security audit and from IRC chatlogs, etc.)
2) They accepted the bomb. (By signing the Bitcoinica limited partnership agreement.)
3) They announced they owned it. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77975.0)
4) They pretended it was not a bomb to the outside world to attract capital (http://bitcoinmedia.com/first-licensed-advanced-trading-platform-for-bitcoin/)
5) They did not defuse the bomb. (We were in a transition phase. We were planning to redevelop the platform at some point in the future. What could possibly go wrong!?)
6) The bomb blew up in their faces and wiped out all their customers. (Surprise!)
7) They pretended it was not their bomb. (We didn't finish the paperwork...)
8) They did not clean up the mess. In fact they made it worse.
9) Welcome to now.

I give up.

Better learn to be diplomatic next time.

Assumption and biased opinions are not how you persuade ppl.

Says the newbie, registered on the very day of the hack. Just saying.

Interesting, I didn't know how the events happened until now, thanks. We could be dealing with a rogue "bomb squad" here.

yes i'm a paid shilling..... better yet THE hacker.

Make valid points and dont make yourself a fool

Most people owed were pretty calm for the first month or so.  I have some sympathy for the Consultancy people because they were in a tight spot legally. If they officially wind up the company in NZ, as Tihan is attempting to do, the partners of the company will be the focus of attention. But they also helped get themselves into this unenviable position, they "took the bait" so to speak.

There are some upsides though, thanks to this whole fiasco I will always keep in the back of my mind "Insist on offline physical copies of all information and code before accepting legal responsibility."

The angry mob mentality does get out of hand I'm sure these guys wouldn't risk their bitcoin street rep. over a failed project.

shut up dude it's people like you attacking Nefario that gets us into this mess  take your beef elsewhere.

You got comprehension issue?

What a irony in your post.

You aren't capable of having a discussion so you should be treated as such.

Nice. That's one of the main faults I give the consultancy: they "took the bait". It was made so appealing! I can understand how they got suckered into to it.
They were trying to be very cautious on the deal, but at the same time didn't want to loose out. I'm sure they regret it.

On the "bomb analogy". What lit the fuse? In my opinion, it was Zhou's inability to be a team player. It just irked him to the extreme that he had to "see his baby" in their hands.
If Zhou was the hacker that cooked the books (rack space) and stole the money the second time (MT GOX), it would make perfect sense regarding his personality. He would rather see his baby burn consuming his "enemy" and gratifying his pride and ego at the same time. I know that type of personality all too well.

Genjix has been around a long time, and his real identity and location are not exactly secret. I have never seen him be anything but nice and professional. I see every indication of trustworthiness, and I think people picking on him are hoping that he will reimburse them for their foolish losses (I never trust ANY website with more than a modicum of bitcoins at a time. Anyone who does so is being extremely foolish.)

A fool and his money are soon parted, and if you want to watch it happen, there is no better place than these forums. I tried to stem the bleeding somewhat by creating a "Trust no One" post (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=33835.0) and getting it stickied in the newbie section, but there still seems to be no shortage of suckers.

So you are saying... He is very trustworthy and professionnal AND at the same time we were foolish trusting him with the security ?????

There is no contradiction in what he is saying. Basically his point is: "Don't accept counter party risk. ever. not even your mother." - fair enough. Personally I wanted to put my bitcoins to productive use and earn a small return. That is a risk/reward proposition. Clearly the risk was bigger than the reward in Bitcoinica's case.

EDIT: Sorry didn't read his linked post fully until now - A trusted indivdual can quality as counter party risk. But not an online service.

Well if we should trust noone but ourselves, how can a bitcoin business ever exist ? They has to be admin, security operators, managers, support etc.

Even the idea of an exchange should not exist with this logic.

Basically at some point responsability and trust in business have to exist else bitcoin is useless.

Yeah anyone who blames victims is really off the mark.

So you are saying bitcoins ONLY useful if we never have to trust anyone ever during a transaction? Impossible, and thus bitcoin becomes useless.

Reality does not care if you are the victim. If you are stupid and careless, your money WILL be stolen.

I would say OP brought up a very reasonable point. I see both Zhou and Amir (whether they are guilty of something or not) as someone who at least have tried to do something to put things right. The other two personages I see as the ones who are actually the most responsible for the matter but who, however, have negligently abandoned their customers and depositors, who have completely ignored their fiduciary duties,  who wisely and egoistically followed "silence is golden" motto and demanded "respect".

I think this is a valid conclusion based on publicly available information.


And here is another absolutely valid point which is kind of undeniable.

Let me talk in your capability then..

I know what you are but what am i.

Truly refresh my memory.

Personally, I believe everyone involved with Bitcoinica was in over their head and that combined to produce a perfect storm which could only end in disaster.

The only person whose actions actually appear to malicious (as opposed to naive, irresponsible, inadequate or incompetent) are the hacker's.  Bitcoinica may have failed even without the hacks but the multiple losses of funds at such a vulnerable stage of its development made failure almost certain.  Every single Bitcoin business which holds user funds needs a disaster plan.  I hope this calamity has caused more Bitcoin businesses to think about the mistakes which have been made in managing Bitcoinica both pre- and post- hacks and considered how they might manage critical incidents affecting their own services.

Lucky you to see the whole thing, unfortunate that you ain't trying to help.What ?? It's pretty much what Patrick said a few time indirectly So according to you they deserved none at all ? That last 40kbtc "robbery" was the rough equivalent of leaving 500k$ of charity fund in a bag in a parking lots.For your information, the biggest creditors are in no way acting as a "mob" and it's in their best interest not to.   The mobs acting people, while sometime helpful to the cause, have very little to no fund tied to this mess and are mostly in for the drama (please stop feeding them).Do you have any better ?  They aren't accused of steeling funds, by their inaction or by wasting their time on the conference and other venture, they *involuntarily ?* make creditors lose any hope left to get funds back each and every days. The only thing we,(biggest creditors), got back in 85days, apart from 0%, is an impressive build-up of rage and wasted time/$, (that IMO has grown to relatively the same size as any anticipation of positive outcome from a London conference). Where did you get that "accusation of colluding" ? does it stem from your 6 posts exchange to have you explained that "could be argued" can not, even in an alternate, dimension be interpreted as "accusing you of thief" https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97272.msg1073399#msg1073399The mob is more likely to come upon you, (and I'll have little to do with it)
....

In all event,  I had very early suggested they use ~3btc off my fund to pay someone to update bitcoinica.com website, then later on offered them to use ~1000$ owed BTC to help them work on the claim. Process. (since they were complaining they couldn't afford good food, had poor hardware, )
I also did "maintaining a helpful thread detailing all Bitcoinica posts" ... That could be seen as PR help.
see :
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=84042.msg1005871#msg1005871
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=84042.msg1006325#msg1006325
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=84042.msg1006356#msg1006356


I wrote my reply as a new thread in an atempt to avoid more crap than was already generated by Nefario's incendiary comment.
Unfortunately it was deemed off-topic by a mod so I posted here too.

He're his reply :
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=98326.msg1075904#msg1075904

Stop trolling. If you want to start a flame war take it to a  different thread.

"If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen!"

 :)