Rules and protocols for sending and receiving numbers. I can set up rules and protocols for sending and receiving numbers via SMS, email or Viber systems. And then claim that a person that recieved "5" owns 5 Porsches. Does that mean Porsches magically emerged in that person's garage?
What happens, when i go to porsches/ some car dealers website pick 5 porsches and leave my garages address and a payment method(that could be Bitcoin) there? They will magically get delivered to my garage(if i had one), but the whole process just went trough databases that collected numbers and letters. What happens is that you and dealership registered in Nakamoto's communication system, you exchanged some numbers via it, and the dealership gave you the Porsches. But still, that doesn't answer my question: have anyone saw bitcoin(BTC)? You and dealership doing something cannot make an asset called BTC magically appear. Stupid question. Have you seen any electronic money ever? Everything in the Digital world is just a number. Like you have a balance in the back, do you see paper money in your account when checking on your smartphone? But you can take our paper money. Why you won't consider this way? Bitcoin you can't see expect a number online, but you can convert it to money. You forgot Bitcoin had a value that had been backed by a large community. Although it's volatile, you may cash out it.
Yes I did. Electric money is representation of an already existing money, such as fiat. And fiat is representation of debt. And debt is an asset because actual entities have liability to settle it. Now you. Have you ever saw money called BTC or bitcoin? If yes, where is it? |
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btc is not SMS
YOU ARE IGNORING ALL THE SECURITY FEATURES
learn about signature proofs. learn about cryptography
then instead of making another topic to ask the same ignorant questions. try to actually learn
How do you know what bitcon is not if you have never ever saw it? And this is not topic about my knowledge but about my question: "have anyone saw bitcoin?" Why do you think that you own bitcoins when someone put numbers into some database?
Its not some database, there is only one valid most worked chain, that follows the rules of the protocol. Bitcoins only exist in this one, thats how you know youre owning Bitcoin and not something else, like an altcoin. You cant just arbitrarily put numbers somewhere and claim its Bitcoin, thats not how it works, even tho people tried it before. Rules and protocols for sending and receiving numbers. I can set up rules and protocols for sending and receiving numbers via SMS, email or Viber communication system. And then claim that a person that recieved "5" owns 5 Porsches. Does that mean Porsches magically emerged in that person's garage? Why do you think that asset emerges when someone sets up rules and protocols for sending and receiving numbers in some communication system like Nakamoto's one? |
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the numbers come to existence in a very secure way that actually costs people money to secure its creation.
the security ensure random numbers cannot just be added or come to existence via any other method or for free.
the transfer of the numbers can only be done in a secure way by the acquirer moving them to a recipient in a secure way only the current owner can move.
this then is the bases of ownership of value.
Suppose I say to you: "do 10,000 push-up, and after that I will sent you an SMS with this: "5 BTC". Do 50,000 and I'll send you this: "25 BTC". In such deal, the numbers would come to existence in a very secure way that actually costs you energy to secure their creation. But... does that mean an asset called BTC magically appeared? |
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Fiat has its monetary value because the government gave it a value and kept a structure to ensure it doesn't get double spent and printed by any random individual. As for the idea of Bitcoin existence, it emanates from user in the same peer network transacting through addresses and having a public ledger to prove the existence of those transactions. If Bitcoin were to be in a physical form it would have been manipulated, banned or destroyed long ago. The existence of its digital form gave every user their privacy and full control to their funds which Op should be grateful for
Fiat is evidence of liability. Liability of one is asset of another. But that's not the topic. I am asking, where did you people get the idea that you own BTC? |
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Where did people get the idea that bitcoin exists, given all we see are numbers send to their addresses via Nakamoto's communication system? If someone sent "5" to me via SMS, and write "Porsche" next to it, that doesn't mean I now own 5 spot cars. By what logic did people conclude that just because they received numbers, and see "BTC" in their wallet apps, they own BTC or bitcoin?
You are also trying to say the E-currency some government are adopting does not exist, this E-currency of some government are just trying to imitate bitcoin. You don't need to see bitcoin without the physical eye or feel it with thy hand, bitcoin is a digital currency that is why it is different from the fiat currency. I am trying nothing except getting an answer to my question. You people claim to transact with bitcoins but get only numbers send to your address via Nakamoto's communication system. Sending and receiving numbers is not making transactions. I could sent “5” to you via SMS and then claim that you now own 5 pieces of some revolutionary asset. Claiming in some text (Bitcoin Whitepaper) that people own xx BTC when a system sends numbers to their addresses after they invested electricity to keep the system alive, doesn't magically create an asset called BTC. Nor it creates it when electricity investors send numbers further. So, where did you get the idea of bitcoin being real? |
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Can you please answer the question, instead of repeating some random answers? I see people claiming to buy or own BTC. But all they can show me is number send to them, and "BTC" in their wallet apps. I can come up with a communication system that would have "Porsche" written next to the number I would send to people who would register to that system. But that doesn't mean they would own Porsches. So, why do you think that you own BTC, when you receive some number via Nakamoto's communication system and see "BTC" next to it?
You example is highly flawed, porches are an existing product, you cannot create a system to duplicate that. Bitcoin is not trying to imitate any existing asset or technology. Are you aware of how a digital commodity works? There are digital gift cards which have a certain value, there are assets which are represented physically which have a value as well, Bitcoin is one of such assets. It exists on the blockchain technology. If you believe a thing has to be physical to be real, then you're about 30 years behind. If you can come up with a digital system which is immutable, transparent, fungible, decentralized etc, that would equally be valuable. A gift card is the record of liability of the card issuer to give you a specified cash value of goods or services. Liability of one is asset of another. So, a gift card is simply an evidence of an asset. When number is send to you via Nakamoto's communication system no entity has liability towards you. So you own no asset with the name BTC. You claim you do own it. So, where is it? Blockchain only has info on that number that was sent to you. But no BTC, no asset exists there. |
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Well, it's not about me being right on something. I am just asking you people, given you say that you own bitcoins, where did you get the idea that you actually own them?
Private keys. I see no bitcons. Do you see them?
Yes. Where are they?
On a globally distributed public ledger. If I download wallet app I get private key. But I see no bitcoin except "0" and "BTC". I could put this: "5 Porsche" on a globally distributed public ledger. But that doesn't mean Porsches are there. So, just because someone put numbers on a globally distributed public ledger, that doesn't mean bitcoins are there. People can put numbers wherever they want. Why do you think that you own bitcoins when someone put numbers into some database? |
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So you want physical money? Great, go to printedfiatforum.gov.
I want an answer to my question. Nothing else. If it is real, where is it? Have you seen the internet? Why do you ask? |
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Nothing has value in life unless people accepted it to have value. Where did people get the idea that bitcoin exists, given all we see are numbers send to their addresses via Nakamoto's communication system?
People accepted what Satoshi Invented and it becomes valuable. If someone sent "5" to me via SMS, and write "Porsche" next to it, that doesn't mean I now own 5 spot cars. By what logic did people conclude that just because they received numbers, and see "BTC" in their wallet apps, they own BTC or bitcoin?
Someone sent you number 5 in a text message, if you want to use it to buy something, they will think you are mad, but if someone send your 1 BTC, you can use it to buy house, car or anything that has value and still have change to collect. Well, it's not about me being right on something. I am just asking you people, given you say that you own bitcoins, where did you get the idea that you actually own them? The fact is you have nothing except numbers sent to you via Nakamoto's communication system? I see no bitcons. Do you see them? Where are they?
Stop being a fool. Can you please answer the question, instead of repeating some random answers? I see people claiming to buy or own BTC. But all they can show me is number send to them, and "BTC" in their wallet apps. I can come up with a communication system that would have "Porsche" written next to the number I would send to people who would register to that system. But that doesn't mean they would own Porsches. So, why do you think that you own BTC, when you receive some number via Nakamoto's communication system and see "BTC" next to it? If you can receive them and send them and no one else have access to them, then they are real and they are yours. Once you understand the logic behind bitcoin and why people trust it, then you will realize how real they are and all the things you can do with it. If you want to believe that bitcoin isn't real then good luck with than and enjoy your bubble.  If it is real, where is it? |
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You're a funny troll. If Bitcoin wouldn't exist, you wouldn't have created an account here. Good luck with that  Well, it's not about me being right on something. I am just asking you people, given you say that you own bitcoins, where did you get the idea that you actually own them? The fact is you have nothing except numbers sent to you via Nakamoto's communication system? I see no bitcons. Do you see them? Where are they? |
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Where did people get the idea that bitcoin exists, given all we see are numbers send to their addresses via Nakamoto's communication system? If someone sent "5" to me via SMS, and write "Porsche" next to it, that doesn't mean I now own 5 spot cars. By what logic did people conclude that just because they received numbers, and see "BTC" in their wallet apps, they own BTC or bitcoin?
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i dont understand why bitcoin has to be just base on people perceive value of it. and for someone to just artrarily fix the supply of them at 21 million doesn't make any sense. it should be able to contract and expand the # of bitcoins in existence. but because bitcoin is design very simplistically it is kind of like monopoly money. not backed up by anything. It's a common myth. Bitcoin’s price is not directly caused by subjective perceptions: It is a result of the market, based on supply and demand. Perceptions are one factor in the “demand” side of that. There are other factors to demand; and perceptions do not alter supply.
Ultimately, Bitcoin’s fundamental value derives from its facilitation of productive economic activity, which would be costlier, infeasible, or impossible without Bitcoin. I know that I have done productive non-Bitcoin, non-market business with Bitcoin, which I could not have done without Bitcoin. That’s not extraordinary: It is being an ordinary Bitcoiner who uses Bitcoin as money, rather than a purely speculative buyer who just wants “number go up”. The more such people they are, the higher the organic, non-speculative demand for BTC.
i'm not saying bitcoin doesn't do that. but bitcoin has weaknesses. you can't deny that. the main weakness being that it is not backed up by something like gold. gold could then be used to measure the value of bitcoin. and gold has real world use. people wear it. it gets used in all kinds of electronics. bitcoin doesn't get used anywhere for any purpose. it's just imaginary. This discussion of economics is far off-topic for the development forum. I feel obliged to answer something that is more usually nocoiner FUD or newbie confusion. If you have further questions about this, I refer you to Bitcoin Discussion or Economics.
ok well, the topic belongs somewhere. You question presupposes that bitcoin exists. How did you even came to an idea that bitcoin is real? Have you ever saw bitcoin? I never did. When I ask people where are bitcoins that they supposedly bought, they show me just their applications that say: "xx BTC". Then I say back: if I send you, electronically, via some communication system that I came up with, the following text: "5 Porsche", does that mean that you own 5 spot cars made by German automobile manufacturer? They respond: no. I conclude with this question: so, why do you think that you own xx bitcoins, just because someone electronically send you this text: "xx BTC", via communication system of an anonymous Nakamoto person or group? They say nothing back. |
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There's nothing to discuss, but someone might want me to clarify some points from the OP. So, there's no need to lock anything. Hahaha, that sounds like you are just an attention-seeking whore! What are you even doing here? Are you aware that this is an online discussion forum about Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies? What do you mean by Bitcoin? An imaginary asset or a system for accessing a pyramid scheme? |
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Like I said. There's nothing to discuss here anymore.
Good. You have your opinion, the rest of us have ours, and the future will decide which one is right. Obviously, nothing we say can make you change your mind, and you have already said that your opinion is the only one that counts. Since we have nothing more to discuss, do you mind locking this topic now? There's nothing to discuss, but someone might want me to clarify some points from the OP. So, there's no need to lock anything. |
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You see how nicely have you ignored my claim, again. That's all you do.
I would love to have a discussion about your claim, but you’re not here to discuss in the first place. So either show me you’re able to do it or i won’t waste my time. There's nothing to discuss here. Experiment proved that no digital resource called bitcoin exists in the system. You cannot show it. No one can. Numbers are fake. No real amount is represented with them. Just admit the fact that the system is Ponzi scheme and that's it. No need to beat a dead horse. You are retarded, aren't you? I already told you that Bitcoin is real and exists in the system. We can show it. Every one that owns it, can show it. The amount is what is represented by the quantity of Bitcoin you own in an address. You are the one to have to admit that Bitcoin is real, way better than fiat (no comparison possible, otherwise you would be comparing onions with garlic) and that numbers are real, regardless your unfunded claims. Admit it and put an end to your non-sense. BITCOIN IS REAL. BITCOIN EXISTS. BITCOIN HAS VALUE. FIAT IS SHIT. FIAT IS PONZI. FIAT IS SCAM. FIAT HAS NO VALUE OTHER THAN THE IMAGINATION OF A MIGHTY TRUST IN YOUR GOVERNMENT AND POLITICIANS! If I write down your name, and next to it: "10 Porsches", that's all you can show to people. You can show a number and letters. Not a resource. Not actual cars. In the same way, that person Nakamoto, that is, their software can write "10 BTC" next to your online addresses. And that's what you can show: a number and letters. Nothing else. There's no resource called bitcoin in the bitcoin system. Neither digital nor tangible. Bitcoin is an imaginary resource. You can scream all day long, but that won't make bitcoin to appear. Like I said. There's nothing to discuss here anymore. |
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You see how nicely have you ignored my claim, again. That's all you do.
I would love to have a discussion about your claim, but you’re not here to discuss in the first place. So either show me you’re able to do it or i won’t waste my time. There's nothing to discuss here. Experiment proved that no digital resource called bitcoin exists in the system. You cannot show it. No one can. Numbers are fake. No real amount is represented with them. Just admit the fact that the system is Ponzi scheme and that's it. No need to beat a dead horse. Then how did you type your comment just now, so that others can read it across a "fake" internet. Or, numbers really are fake and this whole universe is fake, and it's all just happening inside your head for your benefit, and only you are real. Read the OP. You're talking nonsense. |
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You see how nicely have you ignored my claim, again. That's all you do.
I would love to have a discussion about your claim, but you’re not here to discuss in the first place. So either show me you’re able to do it or i won’t waste my time. There's nothing to discuss here. Experiment proved that no digital resource called bitcoin exists in the system. You cannot show it. No one can. Numbers are fake. No real amount is represented with them. Just admit the fact that the system is Ponzi scheme and that's it. No need to beat a dead horse. |
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Stop editing your OP you dipshit twat. If you feel that there are some points that you want to revise or to bring into the conversation or to highlight, then make those highlights and repetitions within the context of the thread... As I have already mentioned to you a few times, there is no obligation for guys (whether yours truly or anyone else) to have to go back and read your OP and to see what they latest upgrade in your changing a "the" to an "a" or whatever other dumb changes that you might have made in the supposed "latest and greatest" update.. .. .. especially if you are continuously revising it.. as you seem to be saying every few pages of this thread.. "oh by the way, I revised the OP again.. blah blah blah".. Grow the fuck up, Snowshow.. if that is possible? I have my doubts.. hahahhaha.. that leads me to imagining running into you in person.. and oh my god, what an image that presents..  .. it's not a pretty one, at least in my head.. . #justsaying Can you wipe those crumbs off your beard by the way? You should not be eating those crumbs again later, anyhow... and tuck your shirt in too.. It looks better.. brushing your teeth wouldn't kill anyone, would it? hahahahahaha You're also an expert for ignoring the topic at hand. Keep up the good work. |
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Those are your fantasies, not my claims. My claim is pretty simple: there's no digital resource or asset called bitcoin in the bitcoin system. I gave pretty simple experiment in the OP to demonstrate that. You all completely ignore the topic at hand and just engage in ad hominem attacks. The most common is this" "You don't understand bitcoin...".
So, there's nothing for me to address. Your opinions on me are not the topic here.
You changed your claims multiple times, you tried everything you can, but all of it got disproven. And then you just come up with another claim. And now your last resort is calling people cultists again, but if you understood how decentralized Bitcoin is this doesn’t even make sense and just shows that you indeed have no clue what’s going on. And nah people don’t read from the same book, they verify individually, people here are not even linked to each other. We don’t even know each other or have ever talked with each other before. Just verify everything individually, that is the only way to get it. You won’t get around education to understand Bitcoin, that’s the real problem here for the haters. Because they’re unable or lazy to do it. But it’s positive for Bitcoin as it keeps the people out, that just won’t take the time study it, naturally. So we will reach higher quality results in the end, as you can’t fake your way in. You see how nicely have you ignored my claim, again. That's all you do. You're fantasizing about me and ignoring the topic at hand. Majority of your bitcoiners do exactly the same. There's nothing for me to respond. I'm just editing my OP towards simplicity because I see you're unable to comprehend generic economic concepts. |
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I don't agree with Twain, and I think that even an idiot can be persuaded with good evidence.
In the OP I explicitly addressed this comical and nonsensical comparision of numbers in the bitcoin system and numbers in the banking system. Because I learned that all bitcoiners repeat that nonsense. It is like they all read from the same book. Whenever an evidence is given that exposes the Nakamoto's scheme as Ponzi, the bitcoiners will, without any explanations or facts just repeat the mantra: "Fiat the same...", "Fiat the same...", "Fiat the same...", "Fiat the same...", "Fiat the same...", "Fiat the same...". Crazy stuff. They act like some cult of brainless preachers.
Waiting for the good evidence. You call the people that just compare two competing systems cultists, frauds, ponzi advocates etc. Just because they didn’t come to the conclusion that the current system is better. You never even respond to anyones answer or are willing to any discussion, the only thing you do is to make claims, it’s not a discussion. What you’re doing is actually cultist like, you don’t even have dynamic thoughts. „Bitcoin is ….[useless, worthless, not backed by anything, has no value, volatile, no intrinsic value, needs fools to work, wastes energy, manipulated, a ponzi, will be banned, a tulip bubble, a pyramid, a risk stock, is controlled by the …]“ - everytime the same bs that anti bitcoin shills are mindlessly repeating, and no matter what arguments are being brought up, the same bs will be repeated again and again, and counter arguments will just be ignored. Everything has been explained to you 1000 times, your evidence is disproven. Stop the hypocrisy now. Actually discuss or stop it. Those are your fantasies, not my claims. My claim is pretty simple: there's no digital resource or asset called bitcoin in the bitcoin system. I gave pretty simple experiment in the OP to demonstrate that. You all completely ignore the topic at hand and just engage in ad hominem attacks. The most common is this" "You don't understand bitcoin...". So, there's nothing for me to address. Your opinions on me are not the topic here. |
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