3.5million BTC stuck in mempool. All spam  |
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I think this is a borderline no brainer and probably a response to the juicy DDos Classic fans received recently. You don't get cloggage out of nowhere of that magnitude unless it's very exceedingly deliberate. Many Classic supporters are actually indicating this isn't an attack from some posts, and out of respect for them we have to consider the possibility of a surge in growth due to new users or higher activity. Anyone would have to be monumentally dim to buy that. There are arseholes from every shade of the debate and it only takes a couple. If they had half a brain they could've done a subtle buildup at least. I'm a Hero Member now. Everything I do is monumental. |
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^This was just the first guttural war-cry, probably.
Probably, maybe, perhaps. Let's hang 'em.  Poor Picard |
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Bitcoin is under attack, and I'm not sure you see it as your salary probably is dependent on this very state. it startes with this PR war. Correct. The sudden influx of transactions today means that somebody is trying 'to make' Gavin look like his prediction was accurate when it fact it wasn't. There is a claim from 'experts' (albeit exact information not available I think) from the roundtable that only 40% of the blocks are actually full (if you exclude the spam). The mempool was ~1.5k 2 days ago (this says a lot). However, it also seems like the price doesn't really care. Interesting ... and there is indeed evidence to back up your claim - https://twitter.com/lopp/status/703769346921930757How is this related? It's dated 6PM 27.feb txs didn't start to grow until midday 28.feb. |
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Somewhere along the way he turned from funny to bitchy.
Someone's gonna give him a walloping with their handbag or scratch his eyes out at the next roundtable if he doesn't shape up. Meehh..... Let me see Gavin and Peter Todd duke it out covered in oil with only their glasses and some sumo nappies on. |
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Technically speaking, he is right although all that has happened have created a spin on the events that if we don't include cheap spam in the blockchain then ...bitcoin won't grow... Like bitcoin needs spam growth and not legit tx growth.
I'm not referring to technicalities. I'm referring to the distinctly trollish, catty and defensive edge of his communiques. Somewhere along the way he turned from funny to bitchy. Who cares, it's not like the default value is a network consensus parameter. Anyone can set it to whatever they like, whether 0kb / 0 txs mined or 1000kb. I doubt that people are running huge server farms and can't pull a cli parameter on their own. I think your brain is glitching.  |
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Technically speaking, he is right although all that has happened have created a spin on the events that if we don't include cheap spam in the blockchain then ...bitcoin won't grow... Like bitcoin needs spam growth and not legit tx growth.
I'm not referring to technicalities. I'm referring to the distinctly trollish, catty and defensive edge of his communiques. Somewhere along the way he turned from funny to bitchy. |
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where are the TAs ?
Stuck in the mempool |
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... Let me ask you this: If I take bitcoin-qt source, change a few lines of code regarding the suggested fees in order to hardwire it to pay a fixed 0.1$ fee (~100 satoshi / byte) for a 250byte tx, compile it and market it as an alternative client that works every single time, then what would you say? That now bitcoin works predictably and that the network is fine?  ... Let me cut in. Yes, soon you & hdbuck/brg444/ice will be the only 2 people transacting on Bitcoin. Caveat: this will make your bitcoins worth less, as in "virtually nothing, because no one uses Bitcoin because useless. So may not be the utopia you've been dreaming about. Have you ever played the game Postal? I mean the original Postal? In the intro there's a view of a normal street with normal people, but it flickers into a parallel inferno where everything is burning and where all the people are killers shooting at you. This thread kind of reminds me of that game. |
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Because fees add capacity. Got it!
Fees don't add capacity. They introduce antispamming disincentives to make use of existing capacity in a rational way. Bitcoin is a p2p protocol that can be subject to numerous p2p attacks, including blockchain bloat attacks, mempool bloat etc - provided the fees are low and that there are co-operating miners that accept near-zero-cost txs for inclusion. However, my point was that I thought a situation where large numbers of genuine transactions got stuck in the mempool was a situation we wanted to avoid.
First: Why? What will happen if the mempool is full? We've seen stress scenarios, we've seen what happened when private key lists were handed out - the network managed it pretty well. In the pre-0.12 scenario, let's say some nodes crashed due to lack of memory or something. Now this is fixed with mempool management parameters so you don't need to worry about that. Second: If you can get txs relayed for near-zero-cost, then what's to say that you won't fill the mempool easily, even with 10mb blocks, by broadcasting 10 times the volume of current spam txs? But as Mike Hearn predicted, users aren't just magically using the correct fee. Almost every fee is 0.0001. Which used to be a very good fee, but today it will get you stuck.
0.0001 (fixed) is 0.04$ per tx and it almost certainly will get you in within the first few blocks. 0.0001 per kb is in reality 0.000025 / 0.01$ for a 250byte tx so you'll wait until you bump it up. There is nothing "very good" about it. It's way too low. Near zero cost fees attract near zero cost abuse. Plus it is not futureproof (the network will not be secure at this level, even if you have 2-10-30mb blocks). Plus it does not replace mining subsidy as it should be doing. Plus it does not give any serious motive to miners to mine the txs when the fees of 1mb block don't even get them 1% of the block reward. Edit: So basically the situation is like this: the fee market doesn't work because users are insufficiently aware of the issue, and even if it did "work" it seems there are much more than 1MB per block worth of genuine txs at times.
The fee market works. If someone's wallet is crap in dealing with fees, then they should use external sites to determine what to pay. If they made a mistake, they should bump their fee up with RBF. AlexGR: Who should decide what the fair price of a tx is?
In the presence of a rational mining market, the miners. [sry, was away for awhile so I didn't see this] Why it is bad that genuine txs are stuck in the mempool? Because people tend to want txs to arrive confirmed and ready in a timely manner. It's sort of part of the point with Bitcoin. What you somehow seem unable to grasp is that this shouldn't be about how much fee you can collect to miners. It's about making sure the network works. That was the problem Hearn was worried about. People don't use the correct txs because they don't know how or because they don't know it's an issue. That's why the fee market doesn't work. So maybe a feature should be implemented into wallets where fees are automatically calculated for you. Well, that's not here. And if it were to matter it should have been in all wallets for a couple of years now so that someone who opened their wallet for the first time in six months or a year to send thousands of dollars worth of BTC doesn't get a nail biting experience. Bitcoin is getting shittier, not better. That's a problem. |
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  Ahh... The Wonder And Beauty of a planned economy. |
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I'm banning all 'classic' and XT nodes as transactions sent by those spammers are not valid transactions. They are altcoin promoters.
What is it in the tx data that makes them invalid? I'm not obliged to explain again and again why free block space to every bitcoin spammer will ruin bitcoin. I've made enough efforts. I'm the owner of the node I run. I decide which tx are valid and which are not! Time to end futile discussions with big blocktards. It is time to act. Certainly, it is within your power and within your right to refrain from forwarding any transactions as you desire. But that does not really answer the question. If you have no criteria for objectively determining whether a given transaction was originated by a Classic or an XT node, you'll still be forwarding these that were forwarded to you by intervening Core nodes. Accordingly, how is it that you believe your action to be anything other than impotent? It slows down tx propagation, so I guess it's detrimental to the network as well as impotent. |
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Are you one of the devs?
Is this the hubris that allows them to act this way?
I am a developer, but have not contributed much to Core besides some testing and comments. Your question is somewhat nonsensical as core is an open source process where any developer can participate(yes, some odd pull requests will be ignored... but I have witnessed new contributors have pull requests accepted. ) As a developer the whole concept of Eth is an act of supererogation and unnecessarily dangerous. Rather than attack me, Please explain to me a hypothetical use case for Eth that wouldn't be better executed with Bitcoin and oracles besides exciting investors because they hear words like "Turing Complete" and "Blockchain 2.0". I am genuinely open to listening to any hypothetical use cases. RIght now? Just about anything, because the blocks are full. |
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Regarding fees and blocksize:
People use the best option they have until a better option materializes. This should be obvious. What is going to prevent people from using an altcoin when one becomes a better option, other than censorship and DDoS attacks?
I watch Shark Tank and it has given me a good idea how successful investors think. Is the idea proprietary? What is the barrier to entry for competition? Is management skilled and motivated?
If you are not investing in a proprietary idea, You have to be investing in the skills/motivation/track record of management. If you aren't investing in at least one of those two things, you are throwing money away.
So knowing that, is Bitcoin a good investment?
All other altcoins are primarily used for speculation alone and have little if not any utility. One has to take a "shapeshift" exchange cut to even spend them. This could change in 5-10 years, no doubt, but it is unwise for people to recommend others to gamble into a testnet scam rather than simply offloading to fiat if they are unhappy with bitcoin. If someone wants to invest in an altcoin because they really believe in it and understand it than so be it... but those threatening to divest into ETH* are mainly doing so as a scare tactic. No matter how big the blocksize is won't solve our problems. We can still easily doublespend 0 conf txs (without RBF), and waiting 2-3 conf (min recommended) isn't fast enough and will never allow bitcoin to go mainstream. We need Segwit ASAP and multiple payment channel solutions to allow for secure instant tx's and scalability. Allowing spam to drop off and go offchain temporarily is a good thing and will motivate our community to use payment channels instead of simply stuffing everything in a block in a sloppy manner. * I would love to hear of a hypothetical use case of Ethereum that wouldn't be better done through Bitcoin or Oracles. Are you one of the devs? Is this the hubris that allows them to act this way? |
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Who should decide what the fair price of a tx is?
Competition between miners. So, Bitcoin Unlimited then? |
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But, that's irrelevant.
The problem is that genuine transactions aren't getting through.
You can stick various types of stamps on an envelope and depending the accumulated value of the stamps you can ask for first priority, second priority, express, etc. If, on the other hand, you don't buy stamps that add up to the proper value of even the basic service, your mail will be rejected. The legitimacy of the intent of the sender is not in question in that case but his level of intelligence is in question - if he expects to conduct his business by not paying what he should. In bitcoin it's actually better because you have hope that even at 0.4cents or 1 cents, you can get confirmed after a long wait - or you might even get added for free (!). Now, if people don't know how to set fees, or what fees are appropriate, that may be related to ignoring how BTC is used, or some design failure of the user-interface which is inadequate in warning the user about whether he needs 1c-2c-5c etc and how long it will take for his confirmation. Still, I think with 0.12 you can RBF and bump up your fee and be on your way even if you got it wrong the first time. What it definitely isn't: a block-size issue. Because fees add capacity. Got it!  However, my point was that I thought a situation where large numbers of genuine transactions got stuck in the mempool was a situation we wanted to avoid. But as Mike Hearn predicted, users aren't just magically using the correct fee. Almost every fee is 0.0001. Which used to be a very good fee, but today it will get you stuck. Edit: So basically the situation is like this: the fee market doesn't work because users are insufficiently aware of the issue, and even if it did "work" it seems there are much more than 1MB per block worth of genuine txs at times. |
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Gimme a break: 1,900,982.81 XBT (x440 = 836mn USD) Total fees 4.8090 XBT (x 440 = 2115 USD) "We want to move around 836mn USD but are only willing to pay 2k in fees so we will wait a few hours or days".Makes sense, doesn't it? [I'm beginning to suspect that you're a bit dim.] No, it doesn't. Which sort of shows that the fee market doesn't work. Maybe we should invite Mike Hearn back so he can sort this out. The fee market works great: https://bitcoinfees.21.coCan you see who are waiting? Oh yes, those who pay the least. Do you mind if I copy paste this into a thread I'll make on technical so we can get some proper debate about this? Sure, why not... but you've already made your mind that block size is all that matters - irregardless of the fact that people are paying near-zero cost fees (whether the low priority 0-1-2 cents guys or the higher priority 3-4-5-6 cents guys), so what difference does it make anyway? My mind is made up to the extent that I think I'm right and no one has managed to convince me otherwise. My problem with you argument here is that the justification for the 1MB limit was to limit spam and dust, not to milk rich people. The thing is you don't want to be convinced, or change your mind. That's ok - most people are inflexible regarding their belief systems. The other day I got 250$ in paypal. From sender to recipient's bank account (=my bank account) I lost 20$ in various fees and conversions - and it took 4 days btw because there was a weekend in-between and a "random security check" by paypal that got me +1 day delay. How is a 3-5 cents fee for an almost instant tx, or 1-2 cents for a few hours tx, "milking the rich" when bitcoin is probably the cheapest payment method compared to banks, visas and paypals? But, that's irrelevant. The problem is that genuine transactions aren't getting through. |
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Gimme a break: 1,900,982.81 XBT (x440 = 836mn USD) Total fees 4.8090 XBT (x 440 = 2115 USD) "We want to move around 836mn USD but are only willing to pay 2k in fees so we will wait a few hours or days".Makes sense, doesn't it? [I'm beginning to suspect that you're a bit dim.] No, it doesn't. Which sort of shows that the fee market doesn't work. Maybe we should invite Mike Hearn back so he can sort this out. The fee market works great: https://bitcoinfees.21.coCan you see who are waiting? Oh yes, those who pay the least. Do you mind if I copy paste this into a thread I'll make on technical so we can get some proper debate about this? Sure, why not... but you've already made your mind that block size is all that matters - irregardless of the fact that people are paying near-zero cost fees (whether the low priority 0-1-2 cents guys or the higher priority 3-4-5-6 cents guys), so what difference does it make anyway? My mind is made up to the extent that I think I'm right and no one has managed to convince me otherwise. My problem with you argument here is that the justification for the 1MB limit was to limit spam and dust, not to milk rich people. |
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