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1021  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Your options to having privacy in Bitcoin - and their tradeoffs on: August 22, 2023, 11:17:49 AM
Brilliant post. Let me just say that JoinMarket has a nice GUI (Jam) and is really easy to use. You can run it on your own node too.
1022  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Bitcoin mixing on: August 22, 2023, 10:30:49 AM
Hello everyone, I need help to clean some bitcoins. Does anyone know about some bitcoin mixer?

Hi. Are you running your own node?
1023  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Consolidating UTXOs and maintaining privacy on: August 22, 2023, 09:56:34 AM
No, not at all.

You can close down Sparrow at any point during the process, and it will pick up where it left off whenever you open it again. For example, once you select coins in the "Deposit" account to coinjoin and have broadcast the initial Tx0, you can shut down Sparrow while you wait for it to confirm if you want. When you come back, you'll have your outputs in the "Premix" account ready to be coinjoined. These will automatically be enrolled in to different coinjoins over the next few minutes, depending on the available liquidity from other users. If you shut down Sparrow, then any which have not yet had that first coinjoin will simply be enrolled when you next open it. Once an output has had its first coinjoin, it will move to the "Postmix"  account. At this point it will be enrolled in to free remixes whenever Sparrow is open, as I explained above.

There is even a button at the bottom of the Whirlpool accounts to start and stop the process as you please, so you can have Sparrow open but not mixing if you want.

Being enrolled in to free remixes is essentially a random lottery between all the liquidity in the pool. Each Samourai or Sparrow wallet will have a maximum of one output of each size chosen at random be eligible for a free remix (so you will never remix with yourself). The frequency at which free remixes happen is obviously dependent on the frequency of new liquidity entering the pool. Given all this, then the higher uptime you have on your wallet then the faster you will get free remixes, but as explained, you are free to shutdown Sparrow, even for months at a time, and then open it back up again and continue where you left off.

THANKS!
1024  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Consolidating UTXOs and maintaining privacy on: August 22, 2023, 09:07:24 AM
For what it's worth: at one point in 2017, 100k sats wasn't enough to pay for the transaction fee. It really depends on circumstances. As an example: this transaction with 33 inputs of 100k sats each resulted in only 800k sats being sent, the rest went to miners.

Oups. Great...

Here's a link to get you started: https://sparrowwallet.com/docs/mixing-whirlpool.html#mixing-with-sparrow-terminal

Note that you don't have to leave Sparrow open all the time when your coins are in Whirlpool. While Sparrow is open, your coins are available for free remixes. When you shut down Sparrow, they are not. When you open Sparrow again, it will pick right back up from where you were and they are once again made available for free remixes.

If you have a separate device already running your node, then loading Sparrow on to that would be ideal because it will be connected 24/7. But if you can't do that, then simply having Sparrow open whenever you are using your computer will still get you free remixes, just not as quickly as if it was running 24/7.

And of course make sure you are connecting to the coordinator through Tor!

I thought I had to leave my PC open all day. I mean I thought that once I close Sparrow and re-open it, it would have to restart all over again.
1025  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Consolidating UTXOs and maintaining privacy on: August 22, 2023, 08:47:28 AM
You'll want to spend those coins at some point though, no? If you are using Sparrow anyway, then why not just fire those coins in to Whirlpool? You can ignore them for months or even years if you want and get 100s of free remixes. Good luck to anyone trying to trace them through that. Wink Or as I mentioned above, if they are going to stay untouched then just sell them for fiat and then use that fiat somewhere else to buy back non-KYCed coins.

I don't want to sell, I don't really want to trust an exchange at this point.

Regarding Sparrow whirlpool, I heard a podcast lately where Craig Raw (the main dev) said that Sparrow can run without GUI, as a service in the background and stay permanently open. I will check this, since leaving my computer and the application open for such a big time period is inconvenient. If I could run whirlpool as a terminal service it would be a great idea.


The most important thing for you going forward then will be to ensure permanent separation of any unmixed KYC coins and your non-KYC coins, and make sure never to send coins directly between your two wallets.

Yes, exactly!

If you combine everything into one large UTXO of say 0.1BTC or something like that then either you're going to have to sacrifice privacy as all funds will be in one address at any given time, making tracing easier, or you're going to have to make a ton of change addresses inside the transaction which will cost a premium in transaction fees and kinda goes against the point of consolidating in the first place.

I get that, but I can't really find an "optimal" UTXO size... Some say the larger the better. Some say something around 100k sats is the best... Anyway

1026  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Consolidating UTXOs and maintaining privacy on: August 22, 2023, 07:59:46 AM
If you view the balance of that wallet via anything other than your own full node, then whichever third party node(s) or server(s) you are connecting to will be able to see all the addresses in the wallet and link them together under a common owner. If you have KYCed coins in address A, and you then send some of your non KYCed coins to address B, the third parties can link those together. They could then look to see where the address B coins from, and potentially infer that you own that wallet as well.

If you want to move any coins between KYCed and non-KYCed wallets, they should be coinjoined first, otherwise you establish a link between your two wallets.

No, I only use Sparrow which is connected to my own node. And no, I will not move coins between my wallets. Wallet A (KYC) will stay untouched (no incoming - no outgoing txs).

Thanks though, cause these things used to feel obscure, but thanks to this forum, I have learnt a lot.

A bit Tongue But how cool would it be to say: "Your money is burried at +34° 59′ 20.00″, -106° 36′ 52″"? Cheesy

Super cool! Haha

Side tip: use address labels! And create regular backups, because if you'd have to restore from seed, you'd lose all your labels.
Thanks. I have done multiple mistakes in the past. I just noticed I had reused an address 13 times. Pretty cool  Tongue
1027  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Consolidating UTXOs and maintaining privacy on: August 22, 2023, 07:28:44 AM
The only thing I can think of is burrying the cash on a certain location for the seller to pick up, and hope there are no wildlife cameras in place.

Kind of inconvenient. Don't you think?  Tongue

Gift card and cash are the most anonymous, but there is little to zero liquidity for both. Especially here in Greece. And if you find one user in this forum who wants to sell bitcoin, be prepared to pay in a very generous premium price.

Actually face-to-face seems good to me. But as Loyce said, they will know who I am.

Sure, but you must pay with a method which is not linked to your personal data in any way. The easiest way to do this is probably going to be via cash. You ca do this in person or via mail, or depending on your jurisdiction, you might be able to do an anonymous deposit in to the seller's bank account. Also depending on your jurisdiction you might have access to money orders or similar you can buy in cash without handing over personal details and giving/sending to the seller. Other options available to you may include any altcoins you have not linked to your identity, buying giftcards in cash and selling them for bitcoin, buying pre-paid debit cards which do not require personal information, or non-KYC ATMs.

Thanks for the options.



Thank you all. I have concluded that services like robosats seem to be the best and most convenient option. Otherwise, paying someone face to face would be also great. Every option has some disadvantages unfortunately.

Finally, I decided to do nothing with my KYC coins. I don't want to waste too much time and effort. So, I will create 1 seed with my seedsigner and I will a passphrase on top of it. I will send there all my KYC coins and it will be idle from now on. Then, I will create a multisig vault (a fresh new vault) and I will send all my non-kyc coins there. If I have any kind of suspicion that my UTXO may be mixed and not strictly Non-KYC, it will go straight to my KYC coins wallet. Sounds good?
1028  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Consolidating UTXOs and maintaining privacy on: August 21, 2023, 04:30:12 PM
The first thing you need to figure out is what you want to protect against.

A is KYCed. Presumably you want to remove all traces of your KYC and end up with completely fresh coins.

B and C are known to one or more RoboSats traders. What else do these individuals know? What else are you comfortable with them being able to find out?


Hi and thanks. I wanna stay on this part of the answer for a bit. People with whom I have transacted in robosats know my name. I have paid them via debit card.

This is intriguing. I haven't thought about it but it seems like my transactions aren't fully private after all.

Let's say I wanted to buy 500,000 sats. Is there really a way to do so without ANYONE know about it?

Fellow citizen!  Smiley

Legislation is barely existent here. You can reach us in the Greek board for tax-related questions.

Hey hey! Yeah I LL see you there.
1029  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Consolidating UTXOs and maintaining privacy on: August 21, 2023, 02:59:29 PM
Then, don't use KYC, as long as it isn't illegal to do. You have no obligation to give up everything about you and your bitcoin to the government, which is exactly what you're doing when buying from a KYC-ed exchange. Buying peer-to-peer isn't illegal, and I guess it's reasonable to assume that in countries where bitcoin is taxed taxable, reporting your profit will create no problems at all.

You can still save the situation if you sell your KYC-ed coins back to the exchange and buy peer-to-peer.

I am not anymore. My coins are, for the time being, separated in KYC (older coins) and non-kyc (newer coins). My question in this post was if I could combine them, after mixing them all separately, without issue.

In Greece, legislation is not so straightforward. I just don't want to have to deal with the state in the future. That's why I ask. Thanks
1030  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Consolidating UTXOs and maintaining privacy on: August 21, 2023, 01:47:19 PM
I don't expect governments to care about 0.005BTC, and I fully trust they're not capable of tracing it.

Certainly, but my question can be beneficial to anyone. Therefore it can apply to people with much larger UTXOs etc.
1031  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Consolidating UTXOs and maintaining privacy on: August 21, 2023, 01:19:08 PM
2. Do some coinjoins on A, B, C separately and then consolidate only the non-kyc UTXOs (B, C) and send them to D.
After the coinjoins, every UTXO is non-KYC by definition. So, you can spend all the inputs to D.

If you used different Robosats identities, then coinjoining the inputs separately and then consolidating them into D is your best course. If you did use the same Robosats identity for acquiring both B and C, then your best course is to make two coinjoins, A, separately, and B with C followed by consolidation afterwards.

Thanks, no I always change robosats robot (identity).

I am kind of sceptical when it comes to KYC UTXOs because I want the government to know nothing about my coins. In their mind, Bitcoin is used for illegal activities. In reality, I just exchange a small amount of Euro to buy something more valuable. But apparently it is not something they want, at least in southern Europe where I live.
1032  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Consolidating UTXOs and maintaining privacy on: August 21, 2023, 11:07:38 AM
You can coinjoin A into UTXO D
Then send all of B, C and D with the lowest fee possible to one UTXO; E.
- Jay -

Hi Jay. This seems like a good choice. Thanks
1033  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Consolidating UTXOs and maintaining privacy on: August 21, 2023, 10:14:46 AM
In that case, I wouldn't worry about it.
In this case I'd stop worrying about the "KYC exchange" knowing something about you, and just send everything to one address with the lowest possible fee.

Just out of curiousity, what do you mean? Are the amounts too small to worry about it being KYCed?
1034  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Consolidating UTXOs and maintaining privacy on: August 21, 2023, 07:39:01 AM
... but I think it is not in our best interest having too large UTXos either.

why do you say so? I also need to clarify that when I say large UTXO, I mean less than 500k sats

I don't know the fees your planning to pay. Can you share (approximate) numbers?


Not really, because it's hard to estimate. But assuming let's assume:

For each UTXO:

+ 2 rounds with 10 collabs with max collab fee: 2000 per coinjoin = 40,000 sats.
+ mining fees

1035  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Consolidating UTXOs and maintaining privacy on: August 21, 2023, 07:16:36 AM
Create a new address E.
Send B and C to E.

You mean consolidating them. Not just use address E twice. Correct?

Usually, consolidating funds is meant to reduce transaction fees in the future. If you're using coinjoin, you pay a fee that is higher than the transaction fees, so there's no gain in consolidating funds anymore.

But I want my UTXOs to be larger. Do you mean that coinjoin and consolidation mustn't be combined, or that it is not worth it in terms of fees?
1036  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Consolidating UTXOs and maintaining privacy on: August 21, 2023, 06:56:52 AM
Know that if you want privacy, you may not need to use a KYC exchange at all because all the coins you buy or received on the exchange are recorded and known even after  you withdraw the coins. Although, there may still be other reasons you feel like to consolidate coins from KYC exchanges.

2. Do some coinjoins on A, B, C separately and then consolidate only the non-kyc UTXOs (B, C) and send them to D.
I will prefer this because I will prefer to conjoin the KYC one separately and will not make it link to the non KYC ones. Although...

Q1: I reckon that action 3 is the worst since I am mixing the original UTXOs all together and therefore someone would be able to tell that the person who owns A, does own B, C too. Am I correct?
...this one is good as well.


Hello. From your response, I believe that I should treat Non-KYC and KYC coins completely separately, even after coinjoining them. That's what I thought too, but I am not certain why (1) and (2) differ. Finally, I must say I started buying Non-KYC bitcoin thanks to this forum, but I still own some UTXOs that are linked to Binance, unfortunately.
1037  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Consolidating UTXOs and maintaining privacy on: August 21, 2023, 06:38:39 AM
Hello.

Current Situation
I have 3 UTXOs (A, B, C). A is from KYC exchange, B and C are from RoboSats.

Desired Actions

1. Mix the UTXOs doing some coinjoins
2. Consolidate the UTXOs to a larger UTXO and send it to a specific address that I own (D).

Possible Actions

1. Do some coinjoins on A, B, C separately and then consolidate them into D.
2. Do some coinjoins on A, B, C separately and then consolidate only the non-kyc UTXOs (B, C) and send them to D.
3. Consolidate A, B, C in advance and then do some coinjoins and send the output to D.

Thoughts - Questions

Q1: I reckon that action 3 is the worst since I am mixing the original UTXOs all together and therefore someone would be able to tell that the person who owns A, does own B, C too. Am I correct?
Q2: I believe (1) and (2) to be the same actually. If I mix the UTXOs separately, someone would be able to know that A is linked to my Identity, but they wouldn't be able to know which coinjoin output corresponds to the input. Therefore, I should be ok. Am I correct?
Q3: Which of the possible actions should I choose?
1038  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Watch only wallet and privacy on: August 17, 2023, 06:55:59 AM
To safeguard your privacy, consider running your own node/server through Tor. This ensures greater anonymity and control over your transactions

And even that does not provide guaranteed anonymity, so just run your own node.

I do run my own node, thanks both.
1039  Bitcoin / Wallet software / Re: Sparrow vs Electrum for desktop on: August 14, 2023, 08:07:14 PM

If you are connecting to your own full node, or you own Electrum server which is built upon your own full node, then no, there is no difference. If you start adding third party servers or nodes in to the mix, then it depends on what you are comparing.

I am running a full node and electrum server upon it, so there is no difference as you said.

So the reason to connect sparrow to bitcoin core instead of electrum server is the simple fact that you don't have to run an electrum server. It only requires bitcoin core to run. Am I right?
1040  Bitcoin / Wallet software / Re: Sparrow vs Electrum for desktop on: August 14, 2023, 07:31:04 PM
Does anybody know what the difference is between connecting Sparrow straight to Bitcoin Core Vs connecting it to Electrum Server?

Is there any significant difference in terms of privacy etc?
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