These are the first calculations I made about Lisk, and I immediately started a heated discussion with Max arguing pretty much the same thing.  I finally shut up because this is his show and I didn't want to distract him from doing what he thinks he needs to do to make Lisk a success.  Who is to say whether this is too much inflation...or not enough?   Time will tell.

Current plan (in round numbers):

100M Lisk in circulation at Launch
115M Lisk in circulation at End Of Year 1 (from 5 Lisk per block forging rewards)
127M Lisk in circulation at End Of Year 2 (from 4 Lisk per block forging rewards)
136M Lisk in circulation at End Of Year 3 (from 3 Lisk per block forging rewards)
142M Lisk in circulation at End Of Year 4 (from 2 Lisk per block forging rewards)
145M Lisk in circulation at End Of Year 5 (from 1 Lisk per block forging rewards)

3M Lisk added to circulation every year onward to infinity (constant 1 Lisk per block forging rewards forever)

So yes, there is an infinite supply of Lisk - and it will take an infinite amount of time to get into circulation!

You slipped a decimal place somewhere.  Your estimate is ten times too high.  First year inflation is 15% or 15M Lisk divided between 101 people.  That's 148.5K Lisk per delegate per year or 148500/365 = 407 Lisk per delegate per day.  

Math.  It's all about the  math.


It is only a testnet.  The real Lisk network with real payouts starts in April.

See the satoshi spreadsheet in post #2744 on page 138.

I'm  too lazy to post all that on every page...

Lisk holders will vote 101 people into the position of Active Delegates who will run Lisk nodes that add blocks to the Lisk blockchain every 10 seconds.  This system is called Distributed Proof of Stake (DPoS).  Any particular individual will add one block every 17 minutes and will receive 5 Lisk  every 17 minutes during year one for performing this task.   This system goes in a round-robin clockwork fashion with everybody knowing their turn will come only once per 17 minute cycle and will not be contested by the others.   Such cooperation means only one hash needs to be generated per block time.  

Contrast this with the competitive system used by Bitcoin and Ethereum, which has tens of thousands of miners simultaneously generating literally trillions of hashes that are ALL mathematically valid to add the next block to their blockchain.  These valid hashes are discarded until one randomly comes up with an agreed-upon number of leading zeros in it, which act as a "winning lottery ticket" to pick which miner makes the block and gets the reward.

Both Ethereum and Bitcoin engage in PROPAGANDA that all these trillions of hashes are "necessary to secure the blockchain".  That's bullshit.  Any single hash generated by any single miner could do that.  Instead, their trillions of hashes are a way to pick a winner in a get-rich-quick scheme and nothing more.

This difference is the main reason Lisk will be around long after Bitcoin and Ethereum have drowned in their own ever-growing hash pool.

Where do the Lisk devs get the BTC to set up a buy wall?   How do they know know who sold the Crypti at the buy wall?  How do they issue Lisk to this person?   How do they know you will take the BTC and buy Lisk with it?

How could you tie Crypti sales at BTER to Lisk ownership?

This true statement does not mean "smart contracts" are impossible in Lisk.  It depends on your definition of smart contracts.  

Can Lisk run a dapp on a sidechain that takes coin from two or more people, scans the web repeatedly via APIs or screen scraping, and then pushes all coins previously collected back to only one person's Lisk account based on some future trigger that is found?  

Yes.  And I would argue this fits the definition of a "smart contract".

As I have said repeatedly, the first person to write a sports betting dapp in Lisk using code like this will be a billionaire.

You want him to drop out before graduating so he can be like Gates, Jobs and Zuck?  


https://forum.lisk.io/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7

There's no exchange yet that has agreed to carry Lisk...but there will be soon.

Lisk is a dapp development platform that runs sidechains.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk_0TjP1gjY

LISK HOLDS THE FOLLOWING ADVANTAGES OVER ETHERIUM:

Javascript language simplicity vs Solidity language complexity
Like I said ... easy to write a Javascript compiler to Ethereum bytecode  
Let me know when it's done...or even started.  Even if an Ethereum JavaScript compiler  existed, Solidity is still a new, experimental, unstable language - why paste a compiler on top of it?  See:

https://docs.erisindustries.com/tutorials/solidity/solidity-1/

100,000+ JavaScript programmers vs. few Solidity programmers
The above argument eliminates this so called advantage of lisk
The above argument is vaporware.  JavaScript programmers can start coding Lisk dapps right now.

Single hash generated  vs. trillions of valid but discarded hashes generated to secure blockchain in one blocktime
Makes no sense at all
I've explained this several times.  Churning out trillions of wasted hashes means lots of wasted electricity - like literally a nuclear powerplant's worth for Bitcoin - and is an exponentially-growing financial overhead that will ultimately kill the coin.  See:

https://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate?timespan=all&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=

Cooperative, efficient blockchain generation vs. competitive, wasteful blockchain generation
looks like the same as above
No, it's the key reason Lisk can run its nodes on a $9 CHIP computer and Ethereum can't.  Economies of scale hugely favor Lisk over BTC/ETH.  See:

http://getchip.com/pages/chip

Stable roundtable clockwork forging vs. unsustainable, exponentially growing free-for-all mining
Forging is no different than mining ... just different ways to make the currency
It is so sad to see people that don't understand enough math to get why exponential growth is unsustainable, or why a stable system is different and better from an unstable one.

Dapps on individual sidechains vs. dapps on bloated mainchain
Ethereum dapps are also sidechains .. lol .. you seem to be uninformed
The Ethereum Guide says its dapps are deployed on the mainchain ( https://gavofyork.gitbooks.io/turboethereum/content/dapps_deployment.html ).  Practically, in Ethereum dapps are just specialized "contracts".  There's my showdown cards in this poker hand - what's your counter-reference to prove what you are saying about Ethereum sidechains?  Prove to me that each dapp in Ethereum has its own separate blockchain as they do in Lisk.

Min of 2-4 to max of 101 cheap $35 Pi2 / $9 CHIP microcomputers needed for each sidechain backbone vs. large, unlimited numbers of expensive GPU systems needed for mainchain backbone
The GPU rings will not be used once POS for eth sets in
So...PoS for ETH is vaporware, got it.  How can you know that ETH PoS will run on microcomputers like Lisk does even if ETH PoS finally shows up?  What happens to all those sad little GPU miners whose income stream will be cut off?

Sidechain dapps permanently free vs. mainchain perpetual "gas" payments required
Ah ... What can possibly be the use of the beloved LISK then ...
What part of "free" vs. "paying for ETH gas forever" is so hard to understand?  Free is better.  Lisk is still the exchange coin of choice within the dapp itself.

The best part of the Lisk ICO is that the numbers are clearly available for anybody to see.

LISK ICO OVERVIEW:

As I write this at 13:30 UTC, Lisk has a market cap of $2.157M = 5114 BTC.  This market cap can be divided into the following assets:

3199 BTC (62.5%) - Actual BTC donated, to be used as a $1.35M cash development fund for future versions of Lisk
0789 BTC (15.4%) - Equivalent BTC from Crypti transfers, effective value of Crypti Version 0.5.5 code base used to launch Lisk
0360 BTC (07.0%) - Early participation bonuses, effectively an advertising expense to organize approximately 2000 people into initial Lisk users
0360 BTC (07.0%) - Set-aside for future bounties and consulting payments
0203 BTC (04.0%) - Founder reward for Max Kordek, Lisk CEO
0203 BTC (04.0%) - Founder reward for Oliver Beddows, Lisk CTO

Note that Max and Olivier didn't have to give out early participation bonuses, which are a free giveaway of almost as much Lisk as they kept for themselves.

Here's the BTC donations by day so far:

Day 1&2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17

BTC 801.3 43.5 131.8 109.0 190.2 107.0 63.5 69.0 113.1 174.9 314.9 275.8 343.4 95.2 139.5 170.4

Follow the numbers here as they change over the rest of the Lisk ICO:

How Many Lisk You Will Receive For One Bitcoin (BTC)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iOEdaRnBmSAO5miW7xYheeYUgo5wL9l9BONw6x21nQg/edit?usp=sharing

How Many Lisk You Will Receive For One Crypti (XCR)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GwWKK7bpjYTxtQRIq_l2xiKI9rEOpTU1oTt0q3C6Mc8/edit?usp=sharing

The Satoshi Price For One Lisk

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q2MJ25_bK5Yi60FYohYCUEkujUtL5c0P1dOdlDMPMBI/edit?usp=sharing


I have written two posts on this false idea that the Lisk ICO is a "Crypti bailout".  

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1346646.msg14152101#msg14152101

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1346646.msg14154777#msg14154777

Bottom line, BTC donors are not losing any money here regardless of what the Crypti donors do. You think I'm wrong about that, show me your math-based reasoning like I've shown you mine.

The people who are using Crypti to buy Lisk agree with Max and Olivier that the Crypti Foundation was not doing a very good job of pushing this JavaScript cheap microcomputer sidechain dapp technology forward.

Crypti stopped being coins and started being voting ballots once Lisk was announced.   If you are with Crypti and you want to stay with Crypti, do nothing.  If you are with Crypti and you want to go with Lisk, you convert your Crypti to Lisk.  The Crypti transfers are about voting, they are not about money.  Crypti donors have the same holdings value in Lisk as they did at Crypti - no more, no less.

Note the Crypti ICO raised exactly 750 BTC back in mid-2014, and the effective value being split among Crypti donors to Lisk is 789 BTC above.  The effective value of Crypti in Lisk is thus currently only 5% higher than the launch funding for Crypti almost two years ago.  So the Crypti folks certainly aren't seeing some huge boost in their fortunes as a result of moving over to Lisk!

Organization gives easy access to the data.  

Currently Lisk market cap is over $2.13M, Lisk cash tech development fund is over $1.35M, Lisk price is at 5110 satoshi / 0.02 USD.

How Many Lisk You Will Receive For One Bitcoin (BTC)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iOEdaRnBmSAO5miW7xYheeYUgo5wL9l9BONw6x21nQg/edit?usp=sharing

How Many Lisk You Will Receive For One Crypti (XCR)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GwWKK7bpjYTxtQRIq_l2xiKI9rEOpTU1oTt0q3C6Mc8/edit?usp=sharing

The Satoshi Price For One Lisk

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q2MJ25_bK5Yi60FYohYCUEkujUtL5c0P1dOdlDMPMBI/edit?usp=sharing

Maybe just ask?

(Check back on this post, I'll be adding links as I find them for a while...)

OKCoin Contact Info

https://www.okcoin.cn/tcat-6-601.html

https://www.okcoin.cn/question/userSupport.do

https://twitter.com/OKcoin

Huobi Contact Info

https://www.huobi.com/about/contact_us

https://www.huobi.com/about/manage_team

https://twitter.com/huobicom?lang=en

Allen Scott of Coin Telegraph knows how to get in touch with Huobi management and has interviewed them several times, maybe he would do a referral....after writing an article on the Lisk ICO, maybe?

http://cointelegraph.com/authors/allen_scott

Absolutely!
Ethereum penetration in Chinese exchanges is effectively zero.
If Lisk can be listed on Chinese exchanges before Ethereum, Lisk could very well leapfrog Ethereum in trading volume.

Daily ETHEREUM Volume in Millions of US Dollars Ranked by Exchange  

$M_USD 19.51 6.76 3.68 2.22 1.18 0.77 0.66 0.08 0.06 0.06 0.03 0.02 0.02 0.02 0.01 0.01 0.01 0.01 0.01 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00

CURRENCY_PAIR ETH/BTC ETH/BTC ETH/BTC ETH/EUR ETH/CNY ETH/USD ETH/BTC ETH/USDT ETH/BTC ETH/EUR ETH/BTC ETH/BTC ETH/GBP ETH/BTC ETH/BTC ETH/CAD ETH/CNY ETH/BTC ETH/BTC ETH/GBP ETH/BTC ETH/USD ETH/LTC ETH/USD ETH/RUR ETH/BTC ETH/DOGE ETH/EUR ETH/BTC ETH/BTC ETH/BTS

EXCHANGE Poloniex Kraken Gatecoin Kraken Yunbi Kraken Bittrex Poloniex Livecoin Gatecoin Exmo Bleutrade Kraken Yunbi YoBit Kraken BTER HitBTC BTER Bittylicious C-CEX YoBit Bleutrade C-CEX YoBit Coinsquare Bleutrade Bittylicious Metaexchange alcurEX OpenLedger

People just don't realize how much Bitcoin has become a Chinese money laundering machine, or just how GIGANTICALLY HUGE OKCoin and Huobi are compared to what we in the West think of as "big" exchanges like Kraken.  Poloniex and BTER, where Crypti XCR found a trading home, is near the bottom at only $90K and $40K per day respectively.  That's peanuts.  As I said a few pages ago:

if we want Lisk to go to da moon, we need to get on the Chinese OKCoin and Huobi exchanges.  

Daily BITCOIN Volume in Millions of US Dollars Ranked by Exchange  

$M_USD 1330.85 805.63 61.35 15.38 13.03 5.85 5.36 4.19 3.68 3.10 3.06 2.42 2.20 1.81 1.72 1.70 1.63 1.51 1.42 1.07 0.97 0.95 0.88 0.88 0.69 0.65 0.63 0.48 0.29 0.29 0.27 0.22 0.21 0.20 0.19 0.18 0.16 0.15 0.14 0.14 0.13 0.11 0.10 0.09 0.07 0.07 0.05 0.05 0.04 0.04 0.04 0.03 0.03

CURRENCY_PAIR BTC/CNY BTC/CNY BTC/CNY BTC/CNY BTC/CNY BTC/USD BTC/USD BTC/JPY BTC/EUR BTC/JPY BTC/USD BTC/USD BTC/USD BTC/USD BTC/JPY BTC/USD BTC/EUR BTC/JPY BTC/JPY BTC/CNY BTC/USD BTC/HKD BTC/USD BTC/EUR BTC/IDR BTC/USD BTC/CNY BTC/USD BTC/IDR BTC/THB BTC/EUR BTC/JPY BTC/EUR BTC/PLN BTC/RUR BTC/USD BTC/EUR BTC/USD BTC/EUR BTC/RUB BTC/SGD BTC/USD BTC/USD BTC/USDT BTC/CAD BTC/GBP BTC/USD BTC/EUR BTC/BRL BTC/USD BTC/CNY BTC/EUR BTC/EUR

EXCHANGE OKCoin.cn Huobi BtcTrade BTC100 BTCChina Bitfinex OkCoin Intl. BTCBOX Kraken Quoine Coinbase Exchange BTC-E Bitstamp itBit Coincheck LakeBTC Gatecoin Zaif bitFlyer BTC38 Kraken Gatecoin CEX.IO itBit Quoine Gatecoin Yunbi meXBT Bitcoin Indonesia BX Thailand The Rock Trading Kraken CEX.IO BitBay BTC-E Livecoin Bitonic Quoine BTCGreece Exmo Quoine Exmo Bitex.la Poloniex Kraken Bittylicious 247exchange Livecoin BitcoinToYou Justcoin BTER CoinMate Exmo

This is correct.  This is just another way (and a simpler one) to state mathematically what I did about the number of Lisk received being less and less than the Crypti exchanged as the Lisk satoshi price goes above 1300.  Also, by using XCR there is no 15%/10%/5% bonus.  That reward is only available to BTC and Shapeshift donors.  



I agree that if Crypti XCR was not accepted at all in this ICO, then BTC donors would receive a proportionally larger share of the 85M Lisk to be distributed.  

But that larger share of Lisk would also be worth less in satoshi by a factor of the equivalent BTC from Crypti that would be excluded.  

So tell me exactly how would the BTC donors gain financially by the exclusion of Crypti exchanges for Lisk?  The BTC donors would own more of a less valuable coin, so the actual value of their holdings (large or small) remains unchanged in either case.

If BTC holders don't gain financially by the exclusion of Crypti donors, then they don't lose financially from the inclusion of Crypti donors.

If BTC donors don't lose financially from the inclusion of Crypti donors, then the BTC donors are not bailing out Crypti bag holders.

Look, I understand what you are getting at.  Crypti owners are between a rock and a hard place, and they got there by the actions and inactions of Crypti management.  That's why the Lisk fork got started.  

But it is not correct to give the impression that Crypti donors are causing BTC donors to lose money.  They are not.  What is happening is that BTC donors showing up allows building a ship that is big enough for Crypti donors to board, too, and get out of their life raft.  And Olivier and Max are organizing this rescue at sea so that it benefits everybody.

Sure, if Lisk were to exclude Crypti donors, the BTC donors would be getting use of the Version 0.5.5 sidechain/dapp software for free.  Sure, under open source rules, that's allowed.  But... is it right to stiff the Crypti donors that funded that software from vaporware to a hard-won code base?


This is why Max and Olivier are worthy of trust in this ICO and going forward as the leaders of the Lisk project.

I posted this only three pages ago, but since you missed it, here it is again....

BTC investors are NOT bailing out XCR bag holders in this ICO!

THERE IS NOT A ONE-FOR-ONE EXCHANGE OF CRYPTI XCR FOR LISK.

XCR members joining Lisk are getting their donations capped at the fair market value (at Poloniex, for example) of 1300 satoshi per XCR.    You can see that by going to the "How many Lisk will I get for my XCR" spreadsheet link in my other post above on page 129.  At present, the number is 0.274 Lisk will be issued for every Crypti XCR donated, and that number continues to drop as more BTC shows up.  A Lisk is currently worth 4759 Satoshi.  If you trade in ONE Crypti XCR, you currently get 0.274 Lisk and your new Lisk holding is worth 0.274 * 4759 = 1300 satoshi (with minor roundoff error).  

Now look at the "How many Lisk will I get for my BTC" spreadsheet.  If you trade in ONE Bitcoin, you currently get 21,100 Lisk and your new Lisk holding is worth 21,100 * 4759 = 100,000,000 satoshi (with minor roundoff error), which is exactly 1 BTC.

As noted in my post above, so far there have been 773 BTC worth of XCR donated to Lisk at the fixed fair market rate of 1300 satoshi and 2900 actual BTC donated at the adjustable fair market rate of 4759 satoshi per Lisk and rising.   The 773 BTC donated by Crypti holders is the fair market value of all the currently existing Version 0.5.5 sidechain / dapp software that Lisk will use at launch.  The Version 0.5.5 sidechain / dapp software used to launch Lisk is NOT VAPORWARE and its use does not come to the new BTC donors for free.  Utilization of that software as a starting point is currently priced fairly at 773 BTC.  The BTC donations of 2900+ will be used as a cash development fund to IMPROVE THIS CODE BASE and create Lisk Version 0.5.6 and beyond.

To summarize, the value of XCR donations are are capped at 1300 satoshi per coin; the value of BTC donations are continuously adjusted upward to get the current Lisk satoshi value (currently 4759 and rising).  That capped vs. continuous adjustment factor is what keeps the XCR folks from being "bailed out" by the BTC donors!

XCR donators have created a solid sidechain / dapp code base foundation and the new BTC donators are providing funding to improve it.   XCR and BTC donors are not opponents here.  We are all members of the new Lisk team!

Yeah, the NXT ICO was totally crazy.  21 BTC cap with 1 BTC max back when BTC was under $200.   Absolutely insane.  A whale was a guy who spent $200, had 5% ownership of the coin, and had holdings worth $4M when NXT popped to its highest market cap of $80M.  

I came in too late to be a whale, still did very very well in NXT, then rode it all the way into the dirt when it crashed.  Those were the days.  

I explain it as a shortage of available Crypti for sale at the exchange.   When something becomes more scarce, its price goes up.  The Lisk ICO is taking large amounts of Crypti out of circulation.  The remaining Crypti becomes more valuable.  Crypti is still an ongoing coin with 101 delegate servers running and over 2 million blocks on its blockchain.


No.  It doesn't matter how high the exchange price of XCR goes.  The XCR price at an exchange (Poloniex) could go to 2000 satoshis and the Lisk exchange price is still gonna be fixed at 1300 satoshi per Crypti XCR.   If somebody can find a buyer of Crypti XCR above 1300 satoshi, they should take the deal and buy into Lisk with the Bitcoin they made on the trade.  They will get more Lisk that way than if they trade raw Crypti XCR into Lisk directly at the fixed 1300 satoshi exchange price.