interested

I just updated my PoS scenario in this post from yesterday, as I realized some of my conclusions were not fully thought out. My original post now has the updated scenario. Basically, it is a little easier for the parasitic rich person to sustain himself than I originally thought, but he still can't grow his wealth as quickly as the poorest person who has a job. And it is still much easier for a parasitic rich person in the PoW scenario to grow his wealth at a faster-than-average rate than in the PoS system.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg4696161#msg4696161

Here's what the guys who'll be at the Miami conference request of those who want to help out on this thread:

And Come-from-Beyond's paraphrase of BCNext's Transparent Forging description:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=364218.msg3888740#msg3888740

Here's an explosive paragraph from Anon's excellent essay (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E_ToOMG2l1XThx6YnyXEajXaf6H1k2yjq8XkAF0ScB4/mobilebasic?pli=1) that deserves to get some attention at Miami:

"In addition to solving some of the previously mentioned problems with proof of work, NXT also offers a number of potential advantages. While it is not possible to predict who will author the block 1440 blocks from now, it may be possible to predict, one, two or maybe even ten blocks into the future. What this means is that, if a merchant trusts the next six forgers in line to author the next 6 blocks (perhaps because they have a long standing reputation for honesty), then it is equivalent to the merchant as if this transaction has 6 instantaneous confirmations. What we are talking about here is the possibility of a decentralized crypto with instant transactions. No more waiting around for confirmations, as with Bitcoin. This is the first Holy Grail of NXT. Furthermore, you could, in theory, rather than broadcasting your transactions to the whole network, send them directly to the next block author. He could, in theory, clear your transactions with other market actors before recording them in the blockchain. So as an example, imagine that a shopper is paying Walmart 10 dollars and Walmart is paying a contractor 10 dollars during the same 1 minute period. Instead of recording both transactions in the blockchain, the block author could simply record it as the shopper having paid the contractor directly. If that contractor wants to then spend 10 dollars on a new pair of shoes in the same block, then the Walmart shopper’s 10 dollars could be paid directly to the shoe salesman. This could potentially allow NXT to match or even surpass Visa’s transaction load. This is the second Holy Grail."

More posts from davethetrousers about his Cubietruck w/ solar panel:



Not only is it operational, but it's running one of the top 20 nodes on the network:

This is the best picture of the Cubietruck/solar panel:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg4666019#msg4666019

I don't know, but here is a post from NxtChoice where he says his Cubietruck (without solar panel) has been running well for the past 10 days, and gives some basic instructions for setting one up:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg4666373#msg4666373

And here is a post from davethetrousers where he shows a picture of it "running automomously" with solar panel, with the only incoming cable being the ethernet cable:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg4675599#msg4675599

I'd say that means it probably is fully operational.

Perhaps those who have been working on the collaborative white paper can send him a few digestible key points.

I'm pretty sure no one is, although NiftyNikel said he'd be willing to help field questions if he has help from a developer. At this stage the best we can do is for those with the knowledge to send him point-form notes on key topics of interest.

Who has been communicating with the Let's Talk Bitcoin organizers? Have they been informed of our status?

Kattywampus is NiftyNikel on nextcoin.org btw, for those who missed his post.

This looks like a really great idea! If it can be implemented to allow voting systems that guarantee 1 person = 1 vote it (especially if the vote can be kept anonymous) it could revolutionize the way democratic governments and elections are run.

This is why I also included an example of the richest guy's neighbor, who is a "parasite":

Let's not forget about this folks!

Anyone able to help NiftyNikel out? This is a pretty critical opportunity for the public perception of Nxt. I think it's highly worth a developer taking a break for a day or two... or someone who is generally knowledgeable about Nxt. Maybe even just to identify key topics and write out some point-form notes for Nifty.

Sure, you can use anything you want from it.

EDIT: I just updated my PoS scenario, as I realized some of my conclusions were not fully thought out. This post now has the updated scenario. Basically, it is a little easier for the parasitic rich person to sustain himself than I originally thought, but he still can't grow his wealth as quickly as the poorest person who has a job. And it is still much easier for a parasitic rich person in the PoW scenario to grow his wealth at a faster-than-average rate than in the PoS system.


Here's my take on it klee, complete with example economies.

That guy has some good thoughts, but he doesn't consider the fact that with PoW, due to economies-of-scale, it will always be easier for the rich to secure an increasingly greater percentage of the profit from mining. For example, the average joe will have to spend top dollar to buy one miner, but someone (or government/corporation) who has a lot of money can either buy them en-mass and receive a huge discount, or manufacture them directly at an even larger discount. This means that the little guy's slice of the PoW pie will get increasingly smaller because it will always cost him more to maintain his hash rate, while the rich who are already making a much higher ROI will always be able to maintain their advantage at a discounted cost.

In PoS the ROI is the same regardless of how much money you have. As a simple example, suppose we have a PoS network of 100 people, and they all have their accounts open for forging 100% of the time. The richest person has 5% of the total wealth, the poorest person has 0.01% of the total wealth, and everyone else has something in between. For simplicity's sake, let's assume this is a closed system and no new wealth enters the economy. Let's also assume the the richest person decides to be a "parasite to society and offer NOTHING back", i.e. he just sits on his 5% and collects fees from forging. Now, the poorest person doesn't have this option, so he decides to be industrious and starts a business that provides him a moderate amount of income that allows him to earn more than his cost of living/doing business. After one year in this economy the poorest person will still have no less than 0.01% of the total wealth thanks to the interest he earned on forging, and will in fact have gained extra wealth thanks to his successful business. Let's say he now owns 0.02% of the total wealth. Now let's look at the richest person. After one year of doing nothing except collect transaction fees from forging, he earns no more than 5% of the total interest from forging thanks to the way PoS forging works. However, he had living expenses, so we must subtract these from his earnings. Let's say he was wise and didn't exceed the amount that he earned from forging; however, when you subtract his expenses from his forging profits, his net income for the year is obviously less than 5% of all interest earned from forging that year. Since everyone else was also forging 100% of the time, this means his wealth has grown at a slower rate than even the person who earns just enough from his job to pay for his living expenses. Suppose this continues unchanged for the next 10 years. Each year the parasitic rich person's wealth grows at a slower rate than the basic forging interest rate, and each year the poorest person is able to increase his wealth at a greater than basic forging interest rate, thanks to his savings. This is just a little scenario to illustrate that in PoS, while the rich may be able to sustain their lifestyle by doing nothing but forge, their wealth will grow at a slower rate than anyone who has a job that can support their living expenses, so long as everyone is forging. Forging is a trivial task, so there is no reason why everyone shouldn't be able to forge. Who is rewarded the most in a PoS system? The industrious, just like in every other healthy economy.

Now let's take a look at a simple PoW economy. Again, let's suppose this is a network of 100 people, the richest person has 5% of the wealth and the poorest person has 0.01% of the wealth, and no new wealth enters the system. Lets be optimistic and assume everyone is committed to mining, and they all set aside 10% of their wealth to pay for mining hardware and electricity costs. The poorest person can only afford one of the newest ASIC miners, and since he is only buying one, he pays the full retail price. The richest person realizes that he can save a lot of money by manufacturing his own ASIC miners, and he can even sell some to the other members. So he sets up a nice little ASIC farm of 1000 miners for himself which he was able to finance for much less than full retail, and he pockets the money the poorest person and many of the other members gave him to buy one of his miners. So, at the end of the year, the richest person owns a large percentage of the 10% everyone set aside to pay for their mining costs,  and he was also able finance and operate his miners much more cheaply, giving him a much higher ROI. So the richest person has earned much more than 5% of all mining profits for the year, and the poorest person has earned much less than 0.01% of all mining profits for the year. The poorest person is a pretty industrious guy though, so he has his own business which has enabled him to earn a small profit, and he's doing okay, and he might just be able to justify upgrading to one of the new model of ASICs that the richest person is releasing for next year. His neighbor is not so industrious though, and he is thinking he won't be able to afford a new mining rig next year. Obviously, the richest person in this example is also industrious, because he set up an ASIC manufacturing business, but this is an opportunity that is only afforded to the rich. Lets say his neighbor, who is not quite as rich, and not as industrious, simply bought 800 ASIC miners from him at a 40% discount rate from full retail, and then sat back and did nothing all year except to be a "parasite to society and offer NOTHING back". Well, he is still receiving a MUCH higher ROI than the poorest person who could only afford one miner at full retail.

So, your guy was right in saying "the distribution of wealth in a bitcoin economy can be altered much more easily in comparison to a 100% PoS coin economy". It can be altered much more easily in favor of the rich than a purely PoS economy.

I think dzarmush has made a very strong case for making sure SOMEONE represents Nxt at "Let's Talk Bitcoin".

As it stands, NiftyNickel will be at the conference, and we have not yet heard from him whether he's game. My guess is he'd step up if needed, but of course I don't know him at all. Given the short timeframe we have, instead of asking "who is the most qualified to speak", we should ask "who thinks they'd be more prepared to handle this discussion than NiftyNickel". If NiftyNickel is the best person we have to represent Nxt at the moment, then let's establish that ASAP.

I should add that many also think only a general understanding of the technicalities and an ability to communicate the vision of Nxt is all that's needed.

Some good discussion on page 1184:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.23660

I'm posting this here because some of you devs might not have seen this on the main Nxt thread. We're in dire need of someone who is both technical and articulate and who understands Nxt deeply to represent Nxt on the "Let's Talk Bitcoin!" panel in Miami THIS FRIDAY. That's less than two days away. This is a HUGE opportunity!

I suggested JoeFox or Anon go, but neither feel qualified. JoeFox suggested wesley, ferment, opticalcarrier, rickyjames or ricot.

Some are suggesting that only C-f-B or BCNext could do this properly.

Any of you feel qualified enough to field the tough questions and interested in going if we can get the community to fund your trip? I think we can probably pull together enough Nxt to cover it completely, as this is a really important opportunity. I'll gladly chip in a couple hundred $-worth, and I'm sure others would too.

Ok, any of you guys willing to take a break and step into the limelight?



I think you guys (Anon and JoeFox) are too hard on yourselves. You've demonstrated a keen understanding of the key features and vision behind Nxt. Certainly more than enough to satisfy 99% of the viewers. If someone asks a question you don't feel qualified to answer I don't think it would be damaging to admit your limitations and direct them to where they can find the answer.