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Here's another reason:
I have a hobby OSHW (open source hardware) project. I purchase components and circuitboards from China via paypal, build/test them here and sell em. So that costs me .30 + 2.9% + "wholesale" exchange rate (whatever that is?) + 2.5% paypal conversion fee. Now I sell to someone in Europe (for example), and again someone pays .30 + 2.9% + "wholesale" exchange rate + 2.5% paypal conversion fee. So the total fee for the product "cycle" (fabrication -> sale) is .60 + 11% + 2 "wholesale" currency exchanges.
It doesn't matter whether I, my suppliers, or my customers pay these fees (the system spreads them out so the total is not obvious).
Adding it all up there is a greater then 11% finance charge to bring the product to the customer!
This isn't a case like the OP posted where something went wrong... this is the BEST possible case. No wonder the founder of paypal can now build rocket ships!!!
Now to beat a dead horse, contrast it to bitcoin: The fees for Bitcoin transfers are negligible. But even if you go from fiat to BTC back to fiat, you are looking at < .5% fee at the exchanges and that's 2 exchanges so that's a 1% total fee. Bitcoin will save me 10%!
Bitcoin may see a lot of competition in areas like mobile payments, but there is absolutely no doubt that it has a "killer app" in small to medium-sized international transfers.
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All men are demonstrably NOT created equal. Human evolution cannot keep pace with the shift from hunter/gatherer modes in which we evolved to modern capital-based modes. A slight advantage in one area can produce the ability to dominate in our modern world than was the case in hunter/gatherer times. (And other degenerate issues such as inheritance where a person who would likely be a truck driver if left to his own devices ends up as the president of the US.)
agree here too. You probably agree with the USA founding fathers, too. This quote "all men are created equal" is often misused. Put in its historical context it was meant to mean that there are no God-appointed "lords" or "serfs". Think of it like "every baby is equal" or perhaps "All men are created with equal opportunity". |
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My belief in humanity is restored...
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How did you avoid the dwolla 30 day "getting to know you before you can transfer to these sites" issue, and the $500 daily limit before KYC verification comes through? I recently sent $5k to Mt.gox via bank wire. Took 3 days. Although, it only makes sense for sending those sort of amounts, as it costs something like 60$ total in fees. Yes it basically works once you've figured it out. But read that Mt. Gox wire info from the perspective of joe average who's probably done 0 bank transfers in his life but maybe 1 or two for house/car. And note that its couched in a page with about 10 other options all of which seem totally oddball. Very few people would read about bitcoin today, read that tomorrow and then sign up to do an international bank wire costing an unknown amount (what's that intermediate bank clause?) to a country they have no hope to recover funds from if it is lost... This is what I mean by it takes a few months to actually gain understanding in the mechanics of investing in bitcoin, beyond bitinstant of course... Bitfloor cash deposits are really easy for the average Joe to understand also. Yeah but closest branch is like 3 hrs away from me! |
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campbx hit 11.33!!! Only ~150 bitcoins left for sale there.
Bitstamp has touched 12  This is the first time campbx has exceeded gox since the rally began. Normally it trades 25c lower or so. |
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It's an unfair competition, until banksters starts selling tons of BTC paper derivatives.
not really b/c they can't. They would even sell derivatives on their grandma, if they smelled profits. Just wait that they notice BTC. Paper promises are just that, and there is always plenty of suckers. Moreover they have more reasons to short gold, until BTC become mainstream at planetary level as gold is. the " unfair competition" as you call it, was " defined" by your compatriot in gold, silverbox. his definition was the beginning of this thread. so there you have it. Its not a competition, pretty much everyone here is a BTC bull. I'm still waiting for that "COLLAPSE" and "CRASH" that you called for in the general markets and PM's (Gold in particular).. Its been 6 months, how long is it going to take??  Its extremely difficult if not impossible to put a date to something like that in an environment with massive market intervention by governments. For example, the Greek default should have already happened twice, but for the decisions of a few people. I think even the Keynesians don't think you can make a model that accurately predicts a system where individuals have this much power because people are not predictable individually with today's computing power. They are ironically only predictable (maybe) in aggregate. But I think the bitcoin bull market itself could be considered a prediction of Greek default and other fiat currency troubles ahead. |
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campbx hit 11.33!!! Only ~150 bitcoins left for sale there.
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How did you avoid the dwolla 30 day "getting to know you before you can transfer to these sites" issue, and the $500 daily limit before KYC verification comes through? I recently sent $5k to Mt.gox via bank wire. Took 3 days. Although, it only makes sense for sending those sort of amounts, as it costs something like 60$ total in fees. Yes it basically works once you've figured it out. But read that Mt. Gox wire info from the perspective of joe average who's probably done 0 bank transfers in his life but maybe 1 or two for house/car. And note that its couched in a page with about 10 other options all of which seem totally oddball. Very few people would read about bitcoin today, read that tomorrow and then sign up to do an international bank wire costing an unknown amount (what's that intermediate bank clause?) to a country they have no hope to recover funds from if it is lost... This is what I mean by it takes a few months to actually gain understanding in the mechanics of investing in bitcoin, beyond bitinstant of course... |
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I am quite confused, the yesterday upward triangle after the spike should have produced some deciosion, up or down. Instead we are going sideways. If there will be some decision it is too delayed. Something like that I have never seen before, a clear triangle of significant proportion that does result in a side trend.  Are you considering the time it takes to move fiat to the exchanges, and the tendency for people to NOT leave $ there (as compared to retail stock brokerages, etc.) due to the recent hacks? |
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I want to be a trillionomillionaire. All the bitcoins wouldn't be enough for that  If I would have all of them it would be almost enough.  If you had all the BTC, they would be worthless. A fascinating property of bitcoin... |
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The theory is that it could indicate paper-wallet coins being moved into exchanges... that is, a big dump coming. |
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[reposting this because it is very relevant]
tl;dr -- it takes about a month or two to bootstrap to the point where you can and are willing to make a real investment
I also think that a lot of you old timers mis-estimate the time and effort it takes for a noobie to bootstrap. It goes something like this:
1. Read about it, overcome the negative stigma that comes with SR, gambling, etc.
2. Make a small investment using bitinstant
3. Learn a ton about the banking system, chargebacks, how FED creates $.
4. Ask all the noobie questions "why can't someone just [print more bitcoins, steal your wallet, turn off the network, make it illegal]". What's it backed by anyway? :-)
5. Read enough about it to stress about all the scammers hacked wallets and failed exchanges, etc.
6. Start the KYC process with an exchange that has about 5000 totally obscure and difficult to use ways to deposit money.
7. Tortuously move small chunks of fiat into the exchange
8. start buying
9. freak out about failed exchanges, possibility of USB stick failure, etc
10. start looking at paper/brain wallets
11. Get your head around the idea of actually holding your own money somewhere
12. Create isolated new install VM to make a paper wallet. You can't outsource this to some client-side web script (if you really want a secure wallet)!
13. TEST the paper wallet concept (requires an entire blockchain sync from scratch).
14. KYC finally comes through!
15. DAMMIT price has doubled :-)
This was my path anyway...
For HNWIs its got to happen with both them AND their advisor (who's gonna do all the work).
So people who might have gotten interested in bitcoin during the Euro financial uncertainty may just now be starting to move from a few hundred BTC trial investment to an actual acquisition strategy.
Lol, that does suck. My method: Read about bitcoin on /. Visit the forum Read the whitepaper Buy Buy Buy Buy Buy Run out of fiat Start earning coins Sell Sell How did you avoid the dwolla 30 day "getting to know you before you can transfer to these sites" issue, and the $500 daily limit before KYC verification comes through? |
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Tomorrow, or perhaps over the coming weekend, I would put a major event occurring in which the foundation of the existing financial system ruptures at a 50/50 chance. After such an event, the possibility exists that the separation in financial and real assets happens.
That's quite a prediction. I respect that What's the triggering event? |
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unlikely... been there done that. 100 or mkt cap of 1B USD will create that frenzy.
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[reposting this because it is very relevant]
tl;dr -- it takes about a month or two to bootstrap to the point where you can and are willing to make a real investment
I also think that a lot of you old timers mis-estimate the time and effort it takes for a noobie to bootstrap. It goes something like this:
1. Read about it, overcome the negative stigma that comes with SR, gambling, etc.
2. Make a small investment using bitinstant
3. Learn a ton about the banking system, chargebacks, how FED creates $.
4. Ask all the noobie questions "why can't someone just [print more bitcoins, steal your wallet, turn off the network, make it illegal]". What's it backed by anyway? :-)
5. Read enough about it to stress about all the scammers hacked wallets and failed exchanges, etc.
6. Start the KYC process with an exchange that has about 5000 totally obscure and difficult to use ways to deposit money.
7. Tortuously move small chunks of fiat into the exchange
8. start buying
9. freak out about failed exchanges, possibility of USB stick failure, etc
10. start looking at paper/brain wallets
11. Get your head around the idea of actually holding your own money somewhere
12. Create isolated new install VM to make a paper wallet. You can't outsource this to some client-side web script (if you really want a secure wallet)!
13. TEST the paper wallet concept (requires an entire blockchain sync from scratch).
14. KYC finally comes through!
15. DAMMIT price has doubled :-)
This was my path anyway...
For HNWIs its got to happen with both them AND their advisor (who's gonna do all the work).
So people who might have gotten interested in bitcoin during the Euro financial uncertainty may just now be starting to move from a few hundred BTC trial investment to an actual acquisition strategy.
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He is borrowing BTC at a huge interest rate. The argument goes: if that BTC is being put to any real-world use its implicitly being converted to fiat first. So he has loans denominated in BTC and assets in something else. Therefore if BTC goes down (relative to those other assets) he profits ergo he is "short". If he was "long" on BTC he'd be borrowing the USD (mortgage home, and so on etc) and buying BTC.
All of this assumes he's speculating in the market.
Other activities would make his "short" vs. "long" irrelevant
1. Ponzi
2. "Hard money": providing line-of-BTC-credit to places that are very unlikely to need it (gambling houses)
3. SR randomizer (or other service)
4. Some kind of money laundering (he doesn't need the BTC, he needs the individuals and loan transactions to provide cover)
I feel that it all comes down to: Why he would be continuing to use depositor's money at these rates instead of securing loans in fiat?
All the theories proposing legitimate and reasonable risk business models fail to answer that question.
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what are you guys betting is the mark where we see that mad-rush 'hockeystick' growth that leads to a crash and burn?
If the asks don't start filling in we're going to see it if we pass 10. I'm sure you're looking at the depth on gox but also check out how lean other exchanges are: https://campbx.com/depthtable.phpSo with a thousand USD you could clear the board. This situation has been developing only this week, previously there's been plenty of ask side depth. PS: Sellers, please put orders on the other exchanges! Many do not seem to have USD withdrawal issues... |
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People holding on the exchanges. Web wallets look at the blockinfo graphs. System is perceived more secure if the client isnt running. Paper wallets.
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I still don't get why people believe pirate is short in any significant way.
Remember he has to payout in BTC. Which implies a bullish price for BTC if he ever has to buy it on the open market. he said he was in control of the drop from 7 to 4 he said he would be in control of the drop from 9 to 6 i believe him i believe he believes what he says is true. Now that this post was modified, I must say that I agree. The issue I see here if that if one wishes to take on pirate as a bull, then one must be prepared to tolerate at least a drop to 6 USD. How do you guys think he could sell enough BTC to get to 6 and then somehow buy it ALL back +7% more? I know adam will be in there buying and I'll bet a lot of others would pile in as well... |
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