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1281  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Please do not change MAX_BLOCK_SIZE on: June 03, 2013, 09:30:09 AM
I actually meant it does not change the "core principles of Bitcoin" like block reward.
But it does change the "core principles of Bitcoin" like decentralization of mining nodes.
1282  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Please do not change MAX_BLOCK_SIZE on: June 03, 2013, 09:14:38 AM
You can keep only the UTXO set rather than the full blockchain.

Also, I may turn off my miner for profitability reasons, but it doesn't imply that I would not turn it back on at my own loss just to protect my freedom, if it is in real danger.
Yes, but it is not the storage that we are concerned of.

It's the bandwidth and the computing power - keeping only the UTXO does not change much here.
1283  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Please do not change MAX_BLOCK_SIZE on: June 03, 2013, 09:08:27 AM
I think everyone who is shouting today that we should just increase blocks size, or even allow micro transactions, should commit himself to run a full bitcoin node continuously, for the next 10 years, paying all the costs of it by himself.

Maybe then he would have understood Smiley
1284  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Unspent outputs on: June 03, 2013, 08:34:27 AM
I didn't study a lot about what happen but I don't see how two different transactions with same hash can be spent, because of the uniqueness of txids
It's very simple. If it has the same ID, then it must have everything else also the same - pk_script(s), the value(s)...  whatever
So it doesn't matter which one of the two gets into an actual input while being spent, since they are both identical.

You have an index of unspent outputs, where each key consists of 36 bytes (TXID+Vout).
Now when you have a database that allows you to have duplicate indexes - then you just don't need to do anything. When you see the same TXID being mined, you just append it to the table. When you spend it, just make sure to delete only one record from it.

But if one day you switch to a database engine that enforces you to use a unique indexes - then you have a problem. Not a big one, you can work around it by adding a count filed to the unspent record, but nobody bothered.
It's OK that nobody bothered, it wasn't worth it, but my point is that blaming your (a developer's) problem on "broken miners" is just not fair, since they were not broken, but 100% protocol compliant at that time.

So yeah, since you used this word already, IMO you did steal that coins, and that is why when this, as you call him, "broken miner" would realize it one day, he should be entitled to a refund Smiley
1285  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Unspent outputs on: June 03, 2013, 08:05:06 AM
There were two instances of broken miners which created the same coins twice. Because of the way the software was written, with an implicit assumption that txids were unique, the second coins overwrote the first. The creator of those coins destroyed them, not anyone else.
Are you sure?
My understanding was that the previous Berkeley DB could handle no-unique keys and up to that moment all those transactions were spendable.
Moreover it was a well known fact that coinbase transactions could have the same ID and it was just openly allowed by the protocol, though not used too often. I believe there was even an explicit comment in the source code saying that same TXID is allowed for coinbase transactions.
So that could had been a design or implementation flaw, but it definitely was not considered as a "broken miner", neither "the same coins twice" - at least like two years ago, but I understand that history books can adopt quickly to a new reality Wink

After switching to LevelDB the same keys (representing TXID) just merged into each other, became undistinguished in the DB, and only since that very moment coinbase with same ID have not been spendable anymore.
But before, with Berkeley DB you could spend them, as many times as they had been mined - at least that was my understanding, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
1286  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Please do not change MAX_BLOCK_SIZE on: June 02, 2013, 07:52:04 PM
I think it's more likely that the community would let a fork go, rather than trying to beat governments on hashing power, resources, or (lack of) anonymity in order to run a node, or a miner...

People can adopt easily and they can easily switch to another branch, if they find an actual need to do so.
In fact, knowing life, I wish they didn't, but they probably will.
But I don't think it will be the end of the world.
If we managed to gather so much power to build this net, we can as well manage to move this money into the right branch, after a potential fork.
When the chain splits, the hashing power must also split - so the risk of a 50+% attack gets actually lower for you, because you get to choose to go with a branch that you personally consider less vulnerable.
1287  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Unspent outputs on: June 02, 2013, 07:10:02 PM
(plus 2 that had been abandoned because of non-unique TXID)

Didn't know this has happened! Could you tell me more or point me to a relevant source?
I dont know. Maybe something like: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0034
I think it happened in the code, when they switched to LevelDB.

It doesn't matter - whoever had that coins didn't bother to spend them on time, or more likely, nobody had them anyway.
And besides, he can always go to Gavin for a refund Smiley
1288  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: higher difficulty acceptance from the node on: June 02, 2013, 07:04:39 PM
If one artificially raises the difficulty of the block and finds a valid hash for the higher difficulty, would it get accepted by the node?
No.
It's in AcceptBlock function, in main.cpp
1289  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Unspent outputs on: June 02, 2013, 06:10:55 PM
I saw once that there are about 6 millions of unspent outputs
Is it true? How can I check that?
At block #239314 there are 6187163 unspent outputs (plus 2 that had been abandoned because of non-unique TXID)

There is an RPC command in the official client that can print it, after awhile.
I don't remember the exact word, but I'm almost sure that is starts with "get" and does not take any parameters - see "help" and you should find it easily.
1290  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Please do not change MAX_BLOCK_SIZE on: June 01, 2013, 07:52:51 PM
If we scale up to the limits of a beefy desktop PC with a RAID array and >1Mbps network connection, we wouldn't be pushing anyone out from actually using the network.
Except from the ones who don't know what RAID array and >1Mbps network connection is. Smiley

It just has to run on any PC than can play youtube - then I'm fine with it.
If a PC plays youtube, but cannot keep up with the chain - then the chain is broken.
1291  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Please do not change MAX_BLOCK_SIZE on: June 01, 2013, 07:40:09 PM
It does, however, greatly alleviate the network, storage, and processing requirements for non-mining full nodes, allowing for modest devices (a 3G phone, for example) to operate with some assurance of security. This discussion isn't just about miners.

Absolutely, and I'm glad to hear you are working on it. But essentially it lets us scale down, not up.
sometimes I get these feelings like all the people know what they are talking about, except me.
1292  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Please do not change MAX_BLOCK_SIZE on: June 01, 2013, 06:55:52 PM
I put the possibility of world governments coming together to force bitcoin mining nodes to direct their hashing power to attack a parallel blockchain as pretty close to zero and way down on the list of things to worry about.
I, at the other hand, think that this is the most important thing that we should actually worry about Smiley
1293  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Please do not change MAX_BLOCK_SIZE on: June 01, 2013, 05:50:23 PM
well it's sort of rude to talk about what he means while he's reading it, so can answer himself.
but I started - I know, sorry Smiley
1294  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Please do not change MAX_BLOCK_SIZE on: June 01, 2013, 05:47:56 PM
I think he means we should stay together and join our power to protect the net Smiley
1295  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Please do not change MAX_BLOCK_SIZE on: June 01, 2013, 05:46:14 PM
We've got one shot at getting a decentralized PoW-based consensus system implemented. Don't screw it up.
Sounds like a word of a wise man Smiley
1296  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Please do not change MAX_BLOCK_SIZE on: June 01, 2013, 05:30:20 PM
Quote
OK, so now I see some bitcoin war having a chance to pop up in a near future. People vs corporations?
It's not good, and I surely hope to stand on the right side.
It's actually quite interesting topic to consider.
Splitting the coinbase into forks, where one stays at the limit, while the other one goes unlimited in size, or there are more branches, with different limits...

I think technically that could be done quite easily. Almost naturally - you just let a fork go and see how the market acts upon it.
BTC would split into BTC1 and BTC2 and from that moment each of them would have a different exchange rate. At the beginning, probably both below the last common price, but later - obviously either of them is still better than any other concurrency..
Maybe that could actually work Smiley
1297  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Please do not change MAX_BLOCK_SIZE on: June 01, 2013, 05:17:19 PM
OK, so now I see some bitcoin war having a chance to pop up in a near future. People vs corporations?
It's not good, and I surely hope to stand on the right side.
Though, I don't think it's likely for me to move to the enemy camp, unless they just force me. But I will surely try to fight, FWIW, because I want to have a bitcoin node in my home 10 years from now. I mean, without a need to have also an A/C to cool it Smiley
1298  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Please do not change MAX_BLOCK_SIZE on: June 01, 2013, 04:55:28 PM
In any case what matters is how we can make Bitcoin scale now while remaining decentralized and censorship resistant, not what Satoshi thought Bitcoin should be four years ago.
Exactly.
So my idea is: leave the limit as is, and let the fee market to work. This will naturally create incentives for payment processors to appear and compete with each other. Just like mining pools do ATM. It even makes a lot of sense that the mining pools would become payment processors.
1299  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Please do not change MAX_BLOCK_SIZE on: June 01, 2013, 04:44:29 PM
The difference between a mistake and a lie is that people correct factual mistakes when they are pointed out. Continuing to say that the 1 MB block limit was part of Bitcoin's original design is a lie.
It's not a lie, man.
1 MB block limit - it's there and has been there for years, whether you like it or not.
Was it Satoshi himself who added it - who cares? Who is Satoshi, anyway?
The only thing that matters is that some people don't want it to grow bigger, and they have an actual valid reasons. Very important reasons.
And you accusing me of "making up facts" - it's just silly Smiley
1300  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Please do not change MAX_BLOCK_SIZE on: June 01, 2013, 04:11:45 PM
If only rich and powerful can run a bitcoin node - then it will become very easy for a government to shut it down.
You're setting up a false choice by presenting a scenario in which only the rich and powerful being able to run a Bitcoin node, and then you propose a solution (limited block size) which results in only the rich and powerful being able to transact on the blockchain and call this a solution.

Then there's the making up facts in order to support your position.

So why not to just keep this point at the 1MB, as Satoshi originally designed?
That Satoshi originally designed a 1 MB limit is wholly false, and this has been pointed out to you, and you have yet to acknowledge it. The odds that you're arguing in good faith is low at this point.

People who are genuinely interested in solving the problem of full node resource usage, instead of just using it as a red herring to further some ulterior motive, can contribute bitcoins and/or code towards actually fixing the problem.
I don't like the way you're talking to me, but out of the respect for other people reading this thread, I'm not going to reply on your void accusations.
But you are wrong - all the way.
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