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1561  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [ANN] A public company will build a huge Bitcoin Mining Operation (ASIC). on: April 11, 2012, 02:28:12 PM
don't forget that to gain x% of the network hashing power, you can't look at the current hashrate, and do a straight percentage.

for example, to gain 50% of the network hash power, someone would have to have a hashrate equal to the current entire network.
This isn't right either. The answer is somewhere in between. Take an extreme case...

If 50% of the network is on the borderline of dropping out (at the threshold of profitability), then you can look at the current hashing power and do a straight percentage. i.e. if there are 10 TH of miners to start out with and at least 5 TH of miners cannot tolerate any difficulty increase without dropping out, then you will only need 5 TH to 51% the network.

In reality, it is not reasonable to assume that 50% of the network is just at the threshold of quitting. It is also not reasonable to assume that difficulty can double without leading to any exit from incumbent miners. To 51% a 10 TH network, you need to add an amount of hashing power somewhere between 5 and 10 TH.
1562  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [ANN] A public company will build a huge Bitcoin Mining Operation (ASIC). on: April 11, 2012, 02:25:01 PM
and then difficulty will drop again, and lots of miners will start mining, and then...
No, they wouldn't. We've already seen such a drop, and the difficulty is still well below what it was about 7 months ago. It will fall sharply and then level out before it starts going up again very slowly (unless it kills bitcoin completely).

point is, you said 'difficulty will double' causing lots of miners to drop out, but failed to mention this would cause difficulty to drop again.


He is describing an equilibrium effect which significantly decreases the amount of hashing power needed to carry out an attack. For example,  if there are 10 TH currently, you won't need to add another 10 TH to carry out a 51% attack. 7 TH could be enough if increasing difficulty to 14 TH level causes 3 TH of miners (30% of the starting amount) to drop out. That is what he is saying.

The actual numbers are hard to estimate, however it is certain that you won't need to create a full new 10 TH to 51% an existing 10 TH network. True attack costs are less than people naively assume.
1563  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [ANN] A public company will build a huge Bitcoin Mining Operation (ASIC). on: April 11, 2012, 12:29:34 PM
Cornering 100% of the market is highly improbable because to do so you would have to drive everyone else out.  Even cornering 70% of the market is very difficult.
100% is very unlikely if he doesn't use the >50% to invalidate everybody else's blocks. 70% is probably fairly easy, though. If he adds the same as the current amount of hashing power the difficulty will double, and that will make a lot of mining operations unprofitable. Lots of miners will stop mining, and then his market share will increase to 60 or 70% without him needing to add more hardware.

This will probably also lead to fear about the future of Bitcoin. The price will fall, and then it will become unprofitable for even more miners, and his market share will be even larger. On short, I think anything more than 15-20% will put the future of Bitcoin in great danger.

Wow, some economic reasoning. I likey!
1564  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [ANN] A public company will build a huge Bitcoin Mining Operation (ASIC). on: April 11, 2012, 03:50:52 AM
Cornering 100% of the market is highly improbable because to do so you would have to drive everyone else out.  Even cornering 70% of the market is very difficult.

The only way a monopoly can survive and make monopolistic (above-average) profits is to have barriers to entry in the market.  In this case the barrier to entry is the development cost for an ASIC.  

51%-ing the network to capture 100% of profit is a barrier to entry that would produce monopolistic profits. You don't need ASICs, 5970s will do. Txn fees would also be increased under the 51% monopoly. The monopolist is a price-maker and has the luxury of choosing appropriate fees for the user base.

And the customer gets to choose the currency in a free market. With fiat currency that isn't always as straightforward, but with a community based open currency the user can choose to evade the tyranny of the monopolist by exercising their right to choose a competitive currency. Right now there's no viable alternative to bitcoin, but if there's an opportunity and demand for it (like if the terms of the monopolist become unacceptable) there will be another crypo-currency. The new currency would be able to build on existing bitcoin infrastructure; if a merchant already accepts bitcoin, it's easy to add yet another crypto-currency and capture a greater market share.

So I'd think one has to be careful to assess these risks when building a monopoly.


If the other currency also uses proof-of-work, like bitcoin. It would be a dead letter. Monopolist could control both simultaneously with negligible additional cost.
1565  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: MAVE: Digital Signature Protocol for Massive bulk verifications on: April 10, 2012, 05:52:55 PM
Yes, MAVE adapts well to the proof-of-stake model (but implementation really matters).

Note: MAVE REQUIRES checkpoints (or user defined limits in transaction amounts) in order to reduce the incentive to revert payments accumulated from the last checkpoint.

 
Bye!



In that case I will read your paper carefully and try to comment on economic aspects (the technical details are largely beyond me, but security involves economics as well).
1566  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Encourage George Zimmerman (Florida self-defense shooting victim) to accept BTC on: April 10, 2012, 05:45:00 PM
The currency of drugs and now lynching! Hmmm. Are there bitcoin lynching services that might boom as a result of this publicity? If not, then I suggest you shelve your marketing idea.
1567  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: A proposed solution to adjust for lost Bitcoins: wallet 'heartbeats' on: April 10, 2012, 05:39:04 PM

Let's consider a scenario. Let's assume that FBI/CIA/Other US govt agencies start a new supercomputer, and gain 60% in one day.
But there is no action without reaction. China & other countries who don't like USA immediately assume, that Bitcoin is probably a danger to US dollar and because China really wants to get rid of dollar, they put one of their newly built supercomputers into mining Bitcoins, so dollar will fall even more quickly.
Also, other "wild" miners join the game - some (ideological) to protect Bitcoin, but most because USA admitting that Bitcoin is dangerous confirms that is it valuable. So not only the attacker's network share drops below 40 or even 30%, but Bitcoin value skyrockets.

Now that I read your cogent argument, I'm convinced that China will step in to save the network. The network is not in danger at all and never will be. Hats off.
1568  Economy / Economics / Re: Current Bitcoin inflation rate = 35%. Price = stable on: April 10, 2012, 05:32:29 PM


Also, @cunicula, fuck you for suggesting I send you 1/4 of my monthly income for you to answer a simple fucking question in a discussion you jumped into.  If you don't want to be here, find another thread to troll.  It would have taken less of your precious time to answer it than to spew your childish "I'm so important" speech.

I am sorry. Asshats put me in a very sour mood. It was wrong of me to involve you when you hadn't shown any signs of asshattery. I sincerely apologize. It is true that I am extremely arrogant.
1569  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Unregulated Corporation Cryptocurrency on: April 10, 2012, 05:26:21 PM

Maybe it is naive top imaging that part of the usefulness of having an early adopter phase where a few people rake in vast numbers of coins is precisely to create a bunch of people who ought to be highly motivated to try to ensure the coins become valuable?


The problem here is that no one has enough coins to have a strong incentive. If an extremely wealthy person owned say 30% of the coins, then they would have an adequate incentive (though still much weaker than all coin holders collectively). Note also that they would have to be wealthy enough to not only own 30% of coins, but also to be able to gamble with them without facing risk of substantial personal loss. In short, they would need to be a billionaire. We would also have to hope that very wealthy person had ambitious plans to develop the currency. These are rather unlikely conditions.
1570  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Unregulated Corporation Cryptocurrency on: April 10, 2012, 05:22:30 PM
You keep saying bitcoin, instead of some newfangled coin.


Bitcoin is just for convenience. Insert whatever term you like.


However, in general I do not see how a collective having a certain size of stake / income of coins differs from an individual who owns just as large a stake / income. If an organisation could be put together that controls as many coins as Satoshi does, why would it be more likely than Satoshi is to do something calculated to increase the value of the coins?

Standard argument about why the corporate model facilitates large-scale, risky, entrepreneurial activity.

One individual owning 100% is clearly impractical [not really a currency anymore], so let's say 90%. If the individual owns 90% of all coins, then he would reap almost all the return from increasing coin value. So far so good. However, he would also face all the risk associated with funding the operation. Unless this individual is extremely wealthy (or the coin is worthless), he will not want to throw coins at risky, entrepreneurial activity. He could lose his shirt. However, throwing coins at risky, entrepreneurial activity is just what is needed to developed bitcoin businesses.

If ownership is divided amongst a large number of people, then each individual does not face significant personal risk. Security from personal risk encourages them to channel funds to high risk - high return activities such as large-scale, professional, semi-legal bitcoin poker. This is the basis for entrepreneurial development.

Finally, people seem to prefer a decentralized model of currency operation. Periodic, decentralized election of a representative could satisfy this desire in my view. Centralized ownership and control could not.
1571  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [ANN] A public company will build a huge Bitcoin Mining Operation (ASIC). on: April 10, 2012, 04:58:17 PM
Cornering 100% of the market is highly improbable because to do so you would have to drive everyone else out.  Even cornering 70% of the market is very difficult.

The only way a monopoly can survive and make monopolistic (above-average) profits is to have barriers to entry in the market.  In this case the barrier to entry is the development cost for an ASIC. 

51%-ing the network to capture 100% of profit is a barrier to entry that would produce monopolistic profits. You don't need ASICs, 5970s will do. Txn fees would also be increased under the 51% monopoly. The monopolist is a price-maker and has the luxury of choosing appropriate fees for the user base.
1572  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: What happens when the coins dry up? on: April 10, 2012, 04:49:15 PM
How much is the typical transaction fee awarded when a block is found right now?

Currently, cost per txn is about US$4-5. Of that, about US$0.000571428571 is txn fees [4 BTC per day in total fees/8000 txns per day; source blockchain.info]. The rest is block reward. That is txn fees make up about 0.01% of the funds supporting network security.

Currently, it would cost roughly $7-8 million to 51% the network. If the network was supported solely by these tiny fees, the cost of 51%-ing the network could be expected to drop to about US$700-800. A couple of 5970s would do the job nicely.

1573  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: MAVE: Digital Signature Protocol for Massive bulk verifications on: April 10, 2012, 02:28:57 PM
Can you use a proof-of-stake element as a source of txn verification security? Many people, not just me, view stake as a more secure and lower cost method of achieving consensus on txn validity than proof-of-work.
1574  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: A proposed solution to adjust for lost Bitcoins: wallet 'heartbeats' on: April 10, 2012, 01:45:50 PM

 There's just not a whole lot of damage you can actually do with 51% of the hashpower. Block other people's transactions? The transactions will get through the instant you lose your 51%.

Why would the attacker stop the 51% attack? Say you are Paypal or VISA or a government agency. Destroying the network is like squashing a bug. You built up 51% to destroy the network. It is a pretty fucking trivial investment from your perspective. Maintenance cost of the attack is trivial. There is just the upfront capital cost. In addition, by selling on the way up or postponing the attack date, the investment partially pays for itself.  Why would the attacker allow someone else to recapture 51%?  Why would anyone invest the resources necessary to recapture the network from a determined attacker? It is not likely to work since the attacker can invest resources too. Even if the martyr is successful, then he will still have wasted a large amount of money. I am skeptical that anyone will fuck themselves royally to save the currency.

The network's days are numbered.
1575  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: MAVE: Digital Signature Protocol for Massive bulk verifications on: April 10, 2012, 01:27:34 PM
I'll bump this because I am eager to hear about it. Can you provide a short summary in the OP of 1) what the issue with the current bitcoin protocol is 2) how your protocol might help resolve this issue.

I think this might help attract more interest.
1576  Economy / Economics / Re: That Which is Seen, and That Which is Not Seen on: April 10, 2012, 10:04:21 AM
Well, since everyone is reading antiquated economics... you might try Alfred Marshall, principles of economics (1890). Most modern economists say that it is only useful for the several page mathematical appendix at the end, but I would disagree. The main text provides a nice language-based introduction to microeconomics.

It doesn't really contain much ideology, though. This might make it less interesting to you folks.
1577  Economy / Economics / Re: Current Bitcoin inflation rate = 35%. Price = stable on: April 10, 2012, 06:40:06 AM
The amount earned by "bankers" depends on the spread between the interest rate the bank borrows money from the central bank at and the interest rate given to household depositors. This depends on competition between banks and the regulatory environment. In some countries like China, where banks are state-owned and gov't controlled, the spread is very large. This can legitimately be viewed as expropriation of household savings. This is clearly bad. We do not want the spread to be too high. In other countries, where entry into banking is less stringently controlled (e.g. the US), the spread is much smaller. We do not want the spread to go to zero through complete deregulation and excessive competition. A falling spread decreases bank profitability and increases the risk of bank failure / financial crisis.

Risk of failure is part of competition. Asshat.

P.S. Algebra.

I expect some compensation if asked to provide further education for idiots like these that populate the thread.

1578  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: What happens when the coins dry up? on: April 10, 2012, 05:32:35 AM
Been wondering. What happens when all the coins have been released? Does everyone just stop mining? Would that leave just people who want to contribute to the cause hashing to verify transactions? That seems like it would make it quite easy for someone to gather a modest amount of hardware and hit that 51% mark.

OR will there still be rewards for hasing? Such as the transaction fees being distributed?

Yes, bitcoin will get killed by attacks or alternatively by high fees when this happens unless the protocol is changed. Actually, death due to decreasing rewards will likely happen much sooner than when rewards drop to zero. Even with the current maximal reward we are already getting botnets and lone individuals who aspire or have some share of hashing power in the 10-30% range. This is known as the tragedy of the commons problem. Proof-of-stake is the solution.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proof_of_Stake

Note that there is a strong desire among many of the bitcoin community to wish this problem away. Demand a logical argument providing an answer to your question. Don't let them get away with hand-waving.

 Ask what will happen to txn fees as well. Will the network be secure? Will txn fees be competitive with paypal? In my view, the current protocol can potentially give a yes answer to only one out of two of these questions (that is pick one). It is impossible to obtain yes answers to both under the current protocol.
1579  Economy / Economics / Re: Current Bitcoin inflation rate = 35%. Price = stable on: April 10, 2012, 04:46:48 AM

I have sent you 1 BTC for your time and educational prowess. But meh... what do I know about making money. I'll leave it to you experts.

Thanks for the tip. In recognition of this, I will point out that this statement written by D&T is wrong:

"Scarcity can drive prices up irregardless of inflation"

Inflation is a change in the price level by definition (the commonly accepted economics textbook version). A oil price shock, for example due to war in the Middle East, will cause inflation.
1580  Economy / Economics / Re: Current Bitcoin inflation rate = 35%. Price = stable on: April 10, 2012, 03:43:18 AM
Ok. Inflation experts. Correct me if wrong.

Inflation is the rise in prices of products. This occurs two ways. The scarcity of the resource wanted increases with the demand for said resource. And/Or increase the money supply. (i.e. print more money)

Inflation can be one, either, or a combination of both.

Just how I see it. I maybe wrong though.


Scarcity driven price increases isn't inflation.  If a war with Iran broke out and oil spiked to $400 per barrel we wouldn't say we have 400% inflation.  Scarcity can drive prices up irregardless of inflation just as a lack of demand for a particular product can drive prices down.


FYI. The above is asshattery. Consult a macroeconomics textbook like a normal student. Don't
"learn" from poorly informed morons.
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