if there's one thing we've learned about these doom and gloom papers is that talk is cheap.
We have a lot of "experts"willing to throw around theories but not willing to put up the money, time, our effort to actually demonstrate their hypotheses.
If there was anything to what they have to say then they'd just take those millions and run
What the hell are you talking about? What would you have the experts do to demonstrate their hypothesis? ok, let me spell it out for you. if i were smart enough to develop a way exploit Bitcoin's code, i would either sell it for millions to someone who had the resources to implement the exploit or i would do it myself. anyone can talk but the only way to prove it would be to do it. You could also try to patch the exploit, would attempting to do that indicate stupidity? Moreover, how is this relevant to the article? They are not even talking about an exploit. Moreover, why would an exploit be worth millions? How could you extract that much of bitcoin's value before the bitcoin price collapsed. The most straightforward way of extracting value would be shorting on bitcoinica. It would be difficult to recover millions doing this. Do you picture Bitcoinica/Mt.Gox releasing money to people who place million dollar short bets right before an attack? Even if they were willing, do they even have that much liquidity lying around? I don't agree with these guys, but your comments seem to be off in lala land. you're right in the sense that its impractical to extracts millions from the chain or exchanges. but i do think there are entities out there that would pay millions to destroy Bitcoin. |
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pocket change? how so? the network is multiples in terms of hashing power of the largest supercomputer on earth. how much does one of those supercomputers cost?
you have 3,500 posts on this board and run some financial site. your "feign stupid" shtick is getting old. hey, i'm just asking you to define pocket change. |
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um I did say why in the post. to take down the network. if bitcoin starts becoming a real threat to the established financial institution, it would be pocket change to them and by far in their best interest
pocket change? how so? the network is multiples in terms of hashing power of the largest supercomputer on earth. how much does one of those supercomputers cost? |
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Would some enlightened individuals please explain how having more hashing power than 51% will affect an attack?
Will the speed with which they can rewrite blocks increase?
Will having 50.001% effectively be the same as having 60%?
Could a 45% attack work if the attacker gets lucky by finding the correct hash before the other 55%?
don't forget that nothing can be rewritten with this type of attack prior to block 140,700 as that is the last checkpoint. this will be moved up soon. |
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let me make one recommendation that might help in marketing Armory.
add vanitygen.
it may sound simplistic but i think vanitygen is way too sexy of an add on to ignore. just look at the size of samr's thread. people like having an identity and when its tied into something as cool and mathematical like a Bitcoin address, that is seductive. you've added just about every other tool in Armory so why not this?
coding morons like me can't be bothered with command lines and downloading obscure binaries from unknown websites.
implementing vanitygen into Armory as a point and click would be simply awesome!
edit: just imagine; 1GoldmanSachs923kmdi39lJtIOL976fRFVHdliwl08d
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if there's one thing we've learned about these doom and gloom papers is that talk is cheap.
We have a lot of "experts"willing to throw around theories but not willing to put up the money, time, our effort to actually demonstrate their hypotheses.
If there was anything to what they have to say then they'd just take those millions and run
What the hell are you talking about? What would you have the experts do to demonstrate their hypothesis? ok, let me spell it out for you. if i were smart enough to develop a way exploit Bitcoin's code, i would either sell it for millions to someone who had the resources to implement the exploit or i would do it myself. anyone can talk but the only way to prove it would be to do it. |
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i thought the seminar was excellent altho the math was over my head. it also clarified several principles of cryptography and quantum computing that i had been confused about. you have a very clear way of writing and expressing your thoughts which i admire and its coming thru in your implementation of Armory. i've been experimenting with some of the other wallets compared to yours and its becoming clear to me that this offline wallet feature is truly the ONLY way to 99.99999% secure your wallet (% for illustrative purposes only!). eto please provide the actual probability of inserting malware into the usb key!  the alternative wallets either are not encrypted or offer a server based solution which quite frankly i'm not comfortable with. i'm sure the Blockchain.info and Electrum guys are totally honest but what if they get kidnapped or knocked over the head a few times and forced to corrupt their servers? MultiBit looks good too but even with its USB stick solution one still has to bring their keys into RAM at the point of signing tx's which exposes them to malware in waiting. this was helpful for me and was written by piuk himself concerning server based solutions: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/2240/what-are-the-risks-of-using-strongcoin-com-as-an-online-walletthe various splitting of keys solution also bothers me but i won't get too much into that since i probably don't understand it well. perhaps i am being unfair to the other wallet services and suffer from a lack of knowledge. i'm sure their services will satisfy a majority of people. however, personally, i prefer to be in total control with my keys locked away in my safe with no one to blame but myself if i lose some coins. the other thing thats very important here is that when one chooses a product one also chooses the person/people behind it. i have followed eto's writings ever since he's joined the Forums and his knowledge is astounding. its helpful to watch the discussions between him and other developers and you will get a sense of where he stands. another very telling sign is when another developer (Jim618) from a competing wallet (Multibit) campaigns for eto to get crowdfunding; that says alot. the fact that Armory's beta version is already functional and operational w/o any bugs that i can identify is impressive as well. these 2 posts by eto were instrumental to me in investing further into Bitcoin last year even tho many of the concepts were over my head: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3008.msg565787#msg565787 and https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=29416.0tl;dr short version: eto's one bad boy! |
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Isnt there restore points saved? So a restore of the network to before the attack is possible?
Making such an attack somewhat meaningless?
You will temporarily crash the market, but when its restored people will get even stronger confidence?
yes, good point. there are checkpoints put up along the block chain as it gets longer where the blockchain history becomes hardcoded. the last one was at 140,700. that means that even with 51% of the hashing power of the network, the attacker would NOT be able to overwrite any tx's prior to that point. also, Gavin said he will be moving that checkpoint forward very soon. |
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If the market drops, mining difficulty decreases (correlation verified) and I resume mining.
My stake in bitcoin is not money.
Bitcoin is a movement for freedom.
Yes this is true. I began mining as the price went from 32 to 2. Actually I began when the price was in the 3's. Some people will always move counter intuitively and this is hard to predict. And I could make an economic argument that it makes sense to start mining when the price is low. Those mined coins could appreciate more so over time and they would have been mined when the difficulty was low. It just depends on your viewpoint. I too would mine at a loss to protect the market. Its about a principle. and my investment. |
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if there's one thing we've learned about these doom and gloom papers is that talk is cheap.
We have a lot of "experts"willing to throw around theories but not willing to put up the money, time, our effort to actually demonstrate their hypotheses.
If there was anything to what they have to say then they'd just take those millions and run
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I may have to start a new thread to clarify what I'm trying to relay. We live in a look-at-me society, and what I'm thinking about is that the blockchain would be a perfect place for people to show others what they've paid for--on purpose. I can easily and quickly come up with a couple dozen nice examples, and given just a bit of more time, I could provide thousands, albeit only about 500 or so would be viable.
~Bruno~
this is fine if any individual chooses to reveal that info. but in general, each Bitcoin address is appropriately viewed as a bank acct to which the owner has the right to privacy/anonymity. |
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I feel we are missing out on major markets if we keep the anonymity aspect alive. If we simply rid the anonymous aspect, and embrace the transparency features, we're apt to go a lot further and quicker. And yes, we could have both, but I feel by pushing the latter, we'll be golden. Anonymity is necessary because all transaction can be seen by everyone. Would you use a bank that allows anyone to log on to their web site and see any account by user name and everyone that user has received or sent money to. +1 and this is why we should test the system to determine its resilience in providing that anonymity. |
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I have just cancelled my order of 20 single units so this should be good news for all of you guys waiting in line.
Kudos to BFL for providing my refunds (PayPal) within 5 minutes of me sending an email. One of the refunds may take a while since I used T/T for payment.
I had 20 singles + 1 Rig Box on order but I decided to wait for a few months until they solved all the problems (extra fans, manually cutting holes in the bottom of the boxes) and I see more units out there. I'd hate to see my Rig Box arrive with an extra fan and a huge hole at the bottom of the case.
thats some serious money... |
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At last I can post! Thank you fizzisist! Here is a shot of the "Deep Cool Nbridge 8 Northbridge Chipset Cooler" set. I have a 5 lbs weight to hold them down on the rev 2 board at the moment. The fan in the photo is a Delta screamer and not the Panaflo I use daily. Obviously the Delta puts out a lot more CFM then the 40 CFM Panaflo, but the invalid rate (<0.3 @200Mhz) is the same between the two fans from my testing.  CYA Disclaimer: this is a rev 2 board that I push to the edge. Until the rev 3 boards arrive with proper heatsink mounts, I can’t recommend ANYONE else try the unconventional tests I’ve been running. I have thermal sensors, voltage monitors and additional inline fuses that are not standard to protect the rev 2 board (100% automatic cutoff if anything is out-of-range). - M2KT Actually, someone (mike2kt) has already tested that cooler and shared his results by email. Here's what he says: I would post a reply, but my stupid account is still locked from posting.
The cooler he is linking to is the one I’ve been using full time for the past few weeks.
The answer is YES, they will work passively on the 200Mhz bitstream given clearance around and above the board.
However, I personally still run a small 80mm, 40 CFM fan (Panaflo H1A) blowing across the board just to keep the other components cool. The fan is silent for all intents and purposes.
LOL, that is some crazy sh*t! |
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jim,
so i started off by making that multibit.wallet on my c drive by mistake. i would like to relocate it to my usb key. is it as simple as moving it over? will the *.exe be able to find it?
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One of those people claims to have seen their operator with "tons" of singles all over the place. If they can really produce 20-40-80 a week, they're going to sell like hot cakes. The fact Icarus uses 50% less power isn't going to win a lot of people over. Power is cheap, power for FPGAs is very minor. Unless you're spending $15k-$50k the power savings isn't worth the farm being 50% slower. No one is going to pay the same amount of money to get something half as fast. People are running 500-800-1200 watt monsters, some people multiple gpu rigs, 80watts a pop per butterfly single is a fraction of what they likely use right now. So I'd argue $600 for 832mhash for 80 watts does blow the other FPGAs out of the water. Now that we know they're at least shipping units, we're more pictures/proof coming over the next week I'm sure, they're going to get a lot of orders. But it's likely they won't be able to keep up with demand and the other FPGAs will get bought and supported. But there's going to be quite a few disappearing because they just can't match the price/performance. Hopefully they keep pushing the improve but these butterfly singles are really impressive. If the butterfly, X6500, ztex, icarus are all available to order, people are going to buy the butterfly single. The saving grace is the butterfly singles likely aren't available in a timely manner, but that can change. The other guys aren't likely to get twice as fast in the same time span it takes butterfly to get up to speed. -has all the FPGA competition been wiped out with this weapon ?
Yeah, now that there are 2 whole units out there everyone else should pack it up and go home. how is BFL getting roughly 2.1x MH that the others are getting? is it purely a fx of the higher wattage and this on supposedly an older chip? or are they doing something fundametally different? |
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Define "outperforming". Bitforce boards currently use roughly double the power per megahash that spartan-6 boards get.
for example:
1 x bitforce = 80W @832MH
2 x x6500 = 40W @800MH
understood but you neglected to add at roughly the same price; the Mh/s is also slightly more than double. do we know for sure that the chips for the Bitforce are older generation? and does that matter in the end? |
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if these terms are as you state i would agree 100% with you.
TH should take all the losses since it was their fault they went under.
if they don't return everyone's money then don't do business with them when they come back online in any form.
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The thing is, we've been below the 30 day average for a long time. Now it spiked above that which means that this rally could be far from over.
yes; has anyone around here ever heard of waves? |
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IMO, and i'm looking at it as an investor, financial analyzer, is that these fpga's are a huge game changer for the positive.
as you say, it now allows the average joe shmoe non geek to get involved. any 'ol executive at a big business can now plug this in at the side of his desk and call it an "accessory".
the hashing rate is going to blossom upwards and the rewards will come in the form of a higher btc price as this will rise all boats.
you're actually already seeing the positive signs being manifested in the last coupla days rising price.
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