Bitcoin Forum
June 25, 2024, 07:51:52 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
  Home Help Search Login Register More  
  Show Posts
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 »
161  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Which Proof of Stake System is the Most Viable on: May 26, 2014, 12:40:03 PM
Of course PoS isn't free either.  If Peercoin was worth as much as BTC (value of money supply) then its 1% inflation rate would be about $70M a year.
PoS does not intrinsically need inflation. Nxt is a PoS coin that has no inflation. There's no block reward, just fees, so the number of coins is constant.

The cost of mining from the perspective of the bitcoin network is the block reward provided to miners. None of the costs or efficiencies within the process of mining matter because the network is incapable of taking those variables into account. The cost of security increases with value of bitcoin. If the value of bitcoin increases proportionately more than given decreases in block reward then there is a net increase in the cost of securing the network.
That's true while the block reward dominates. As the block reward reduces, and transaction volume increases, transaction fees will come to dominate in Bitcoin. The cost of security will be equal to the sum of fees, and the community will get greater or lesser security by paying higher or lower fees.

This is why I care about Proof of Stake. It seems to me that either Bitcoin fees will end up very high, to pay the miners for the work they do securing the network; or else the fees will end up comparatively low, and the network will be insecure. If PoS works (a big "if", I concede), then it's inherently more efficient and will require lower fees for the same security, and that could lead users to shift over to it in the long run. (Much as lower fees is often cited as a reason for merchants to prefer Bitcoin over credit cards.)
162  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Which Proof of Stake System is the Most Viable on: May 25, 2014, 02:35:38 PM
Isn't another issue is you need your wallet open to "forge/mint"...
That seems bad for security.  Not sure if that's an issue
with just NXT, or applies to Peercoin and DPOS as well.
Nxt doesn't require you have to your wallet open to forge.

Website says this

Quote
What do I need to start forging?
A client and some NXT. Once you have unlocked your wallet with your passphrase you are able to forge.
That's one way to forge, but there are others. Specifically, you can lease your forging power to a pool, then it will forge on your behalf and you don't need to keep your wallet open.
163  Bitcoin / Armory / Re: Auditing an offline wallet on: May 25, 2014, 02:12:19 PM
You can get the cold wallet to display its addresses. Type those addresses into a block-chain explorer via a browser on a machine that isn't compromised. Probably a random cyber-cafe machine would do. This is more practical if you are willing to reuse the same address, so you only have one to check.
164  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Early bitcoin mining and unique addresses on: May 25, 2014, 01:54:38 PM
why cant they force to use that design in QT ?
Another reason is that there are legitimate reasons to reuse addresses. For example, I have an address in my signature on this forum. That's only practical if I have an address that is stable and reusable. I don't much care about privacy for that address. If anything, I think it might be useful to have an address I am publicly associated with. (I keep it in a separate wallet so it's less likely to get confounded with addresses I do care about). You'll notice I made it begin with the first few letters of my name; that's how lacking in anonymity it is.

Note that the security issue only arises for reusing addresses that have been spent from. You can send coins to the same address any number of times without revealing its public key. Also note that, provided you don't have a bug in your wallet software, the loss of security from reusing an address that has been spent from is academic.
165  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What are the chances BTC is replaced by something better soon? on: May 25, 2014, 01:28:58 PM
last time I checked nxt was still closed source, what's the point ?
The source code for core Nxt is at https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/src. (That may not include all the services that run on top of Nxt.)
166  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Which Proof of Stake System is the Most Viable on: May 25, 2014, 01:05:35 PM
Isn't another issue is you need your wallet open to "forge/mint"...
That seems bad for security.  Not sure if that's an issue
with just NXT, or applies to Peercoin and DPOS as well.
Nxt doesn't require you have to your wallet open to forge.
167  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of stake instead of proof of work on: May 25, 2014, 12:42:55 PM
Why only about 20% are forging then?
I don't know. I suspect because leased forging is a new feature and not everyone has caught on yet. Also, I suspect some whales are not forging because they want to give everyone else a chance. Either way, it should improve over time. Nxt is 6 months old; it's achieved a lot in that time, but some things mature slowly. When it's as old as Bitcoin is now, we'll have a better idea if this is working.

Quote
The downside is centralization of power. If at any point of stake history anyone had 50+% of current stake rate (i.e. current is 20% means that lending to a pool more than 10% at any point) it will haunt the coin forever.[/b]
I gather the Nxt devs have a solution for that.
168  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of stake instead of proof of work on: May 21, 2014, 09:00:54 PM
Where do you get these 99% stake stuff?
PoS coins use 10% of stake and dropping as economic activity goes up. Let alone that their profits are tiny to justify such big stake in minting (Just early adopters minting to support their system). If a real economy exists many will put their coins in more productive uses than minting and will not even care.
Again, this doesn't apply to Nxt because in Nxt minting with coins does not preclude them being available for other uses.

Quote
Why do you assume all these nodes will be online at the time of the attack?
People who don't want to be online 24/7 can lease to those that do. So a high proportion of coins should be online at any given time. (It's not like that now, partly because leased forging is new, and partly because I think some whales are keeping out of it to let other people gain forging revenue.)

Quote
Why do you assume that lending will be something everybody will do?
If you have sufficient coins that leasing pays for itself, it's the rational thing to do, with no downsides, so most people will do it. (Except the ones that have enough to justify running their own node.)

Quote
Why do you assume that it will not backfire giving one person extreme stake history who might not care about the coin at the present?
It's something we need to be vigilant about, in the same way the Bitcoin community needs to be vigilant about mining pools becoming too powerful. However, because Nxt forging doesn't have the same economies of scale as Bitcoin mining, there is less pressure towards centralisation.

Quote
Why do you say lend your coins to a person you can trust if you want to build a trustless system?
Because trusting a forging pool is no worse than trusting a mining pool (except you have a choice about which pool you trust, in Nxt.)

Quote
Why do you assume that the rest honest stakers (those not having their coins reversed) will not mint both chains?
They can only mint blocks when the algorithm picks them as the current forger. Minting blocks when you aren't current is pointless.

Quote
All PoS coins are very centralized in their stake distribution and dont forget that when you say they are decentralized.
Initial distribution is orthogonal to PoS. It's a problem for Nxt, partly because it's so new. It improves over time.

Total Forgers Revenue: 5500 NXT
 
So in a perfect liquid market of stake, I would want to wait about a day before accepting 350 mBTC worth of NXT.
I don't understand why you think there is a connection between mining revenue per block and the number of blocks to wait before considering they are confirmed.
169  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of stake instead of proof of work on: May 19, 2014, 12:25:15 PM
This makes the situation worse does it not ? Now NXT owners will lease their coins to a handful of operators to earn fees.

These operators would be perfectly placed to mount an attack. They would have a % of the POS coins and they can mount a double spend attack with pretty much zero risk as identified by DaT.
It's similar to the situation with Bitcoin hashing pools. A few hashing pools together control over 51% of the hashing power, so that becomes a vulnerability for Bitcoin. The difference is that it's easier to set up a forging pool than a hashing pool, so hopefully we will have more of them, and the power will be less centralised. But yes, leased forging makes it feasible to gain a large fraction of forging power for little financial outlay, and that's something the community needs to be vigilant about (much as how the Bitcoin needs to be vigilant about hashing pools).

(Nxt has the additional danger that forging power is effectively moved around by transactions, and the node that forges a block gets to choose which transactions they include, so they could reject transactions that transfer forging power away from themselves. That is why forging leases are temporary, so they will eventually expire even if no transactions get processed. I'm not sure that's enough. In this regard a hashing pool is more responsive, because nothing can stop an individual hasher from withdrawing from a rogue pool immediately.)

I don't think most of DaT's comments apply to Nxt, because it's such a different algorithm not based on coin-days destroyed. For example, it doesn't use checkpoints so all the discussion of those is irrelevant. Unfortunately I don't understand Nxt's algorithm too well myself; and even if I did, they plan to change it to something called "transparent forging" in a few months, and the details of that are being kept secret for fear of clones.
170  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Scarcity, Value, and CPUs on: May 18, 2014, 01:05:25 PM
I know BTC is released at a near-constant rate -- I'm a big fan of BTC, don't get me wrong -- and the difficulty helps to keep this in check, but I don't want to get off topic.
But that near-constant rate renders your topic moot. It means the hardware used for mining doesn't affect scarcity. It only affects distribution.
171  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: How to minimize risk when accepting zero confirmation payments? on: May 18, 2014, 12:39:15 PM
There was a paper about a system for vending machines.  They connected to something like 100 other nodes, sent the transaction out to 50 of them and listened for potential double spends on the other 50.  This was required because once you send a node the original transaction it will never forward the double spend.
Is there any interest in having a way for nodes to broadcast alerts about the double-spends they detect? Is there a concern doing so could be exploited for denial of service?
172  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of stake instead of proof of work on: May 18, 2014, 12:20:34 PM
The network stake will never be more than a fraction of the total money supply as coins used for staking are essentially locked capital.  A coin with 100% of the money supply being used as a stake would require 100% of the coins to be in hot wallets not being used for anything else (no cold storage, no transactions, no economic activity).
I don't believe that is true for Nxt. Especially with leased forging. ("Forging" is what Nxt calls mining.) Leased forging delegates the forging power of one node to another, leave the source address unable to forge. However, the source address still owns the coins and they can still be spent - spending them reduces the effective forging power of the other node. There's a transaction that sets this up, and then the network remembers the lease and takes it into account when calculating forging powers.

Once leased, the source address no longer needs to be online. Your stake isn't locked capital. You can still spend it and be economically active. You can keep your stake in cold storage and still use it for forging.
173  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin & PoW is a waste of energy & destroys nature on: May 18, 2014, 11:12:53 AM
Once I did the calculations on how much roughly the ATMs, in the USA alone, use more power 24/7 then the entire Bitcoin network. It was nearly 2x the amount of power.

Talk about a wasteful infrastructure!
Bitcoin wins that comparison only because it doesn't have a significant number of ATMs. Eventually Bitcoin ATMs will be as common as fiat ones, and then we'll have that cost in addition to the costs of mining.
174  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [NXT] Nxt - Official Thread on: May 18, 2014, 11:00:06 AM
What I'm wondering is, assume you have 1000 NXT and you solo -forge; what would be the average numbers of transactions you would get and how many NXT you would actually earn?
Rough numbers would do more then enough.

Thanks in advance :-)

Edit: Forging for a day, I mean.
Whatever the answer is today, it's likely to be different in a few months. The rate depends on (a) the number of transactions; (b) the average fee for each transaction; (c) the fraction of NXT used for forging. We can expect all three change over that timescale. Hopefully the number of transactions will increase as Nxt gets used. The average fee may increase from new kinds of transactions, but there is also a community desire to see the base fee reduced. The fraction of NXT used for forging may increase because leasing pools make forging easier, or it may decrease as the stake of whales gets gradually distributed to smaller holders who don't bother to forge.

Currently the return is insignificant. I have leased around 20k to a pool for a couple of weeks, and have apparently earned 0.5 NXT. So that's about 0.007%/year. It's probably not going to be enough to pay the transaction fees leasing involves. It's wiped out by changes in the NXT:BTC exchange rate.
175  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Giveaway Thread for Silver Bullion Warehouse Receipts (pls share this link) on: May 18, 2014, 10:34:39 AM
Yes please. I would like to receive some of your silver asset. My Nxt address should be below.
176  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [NXT] Nxt - Official Thread on: May 12, 2014, 03:26:23 PM
how to produce new format add?
In the client, Settings/Use Reed Solomon Format. Also, when you click on your account number, the second option is Copy Account RS.
177  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [NXT] Nxt - Official Thread on: May 11, 2014, 05:23:29 PM
Thanks! Actually I was hoping for a little more detail Smiley
The address is something like sha256(curve25519(sha256(key))). It is presumably as easy or hard to bruteforce this regardless of whether an account has been verified. If you know the key, you have access to the account.
You must be talking about an intermediate step - a way of sending funds from an account without using its private key?
I don't think this got replied to. As I understand it, that's not what an account is in Nxt. In Nxt an account is only the first 64 bits of the hash. That's why it's relatively weak. It's also why it can be expressed in 21 digits, where Bitcoin needs 34 alphnumeric characters. So account collisions are much more likely in Nxt. When you first send from a Nxt account, your public key is registered to the account, and that brings the security back up to 256 bits.

Thanks - that's helpful. I think I understand it now.
It rules out conventional cold storage, unfortunately.
You can create an account on an offline computer, send some coins to it, then create a transaction signed on the offline computer, move that transaction to an online computer, and broadcast it. That gets your account associated with a public key without the private key ever being exposed an online computer. I say "you can" but I don't know if the wallet software to do this exists yet; if it doesn't it could (and should!) be written. It'd work pretty much the same as Armory, except with the need to create that initial (offline) transaction.
178  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: re-use of addresses on: May 11, 2014, 05:15:51 PM
Imagine an alternate universe where NxT suddenly had the same market-cap and usage as bitcoin.  All sorts of problems would start to emerge.  And because NxT isn't a bitcoin clone, it would be a completely new set of problems that we would not be prepared for.
True. On the other hand, the issues around key length and exposing public keys are well-known. If Nxt has problems, it probably isn't there.

Quote
We were forced to take that risk with bitcoin because it was the first, but why would we want to debug another cryptocurrency payment system if it wasn't necessary?
It is necessary if there's to be progress and innovation in the space of core crypto-currency protocols. Bitcoin itself innovates slowly, if at all, because its devs are rightly very conservative. I think coins that are very different to Bitcoin, like Nxt, are more worthy of our time than the clones, even if we're more confident the clones are technically secure.
179  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [NXT] Nxt - Official Thread on: May 11, 2014, 04:31:06 PM
Thanks! Actually I was hoping for a little more detail Smiley
The address is something like sha256(curve25519(sha256(key))). It is presumably as easy or hard to bruteforce this regardless of whether an account has been verified. If you know the key, you have access to the account.
You must be talking about an intermediate step - a way of sending funds from an account without using its private key?
I don't think this got replied to. As I understand it, that's not what an account is in Nxt. In Nxt an account is only the first 64 bits of the hash. That's why it's relatively weak. It's also why it can be expressed in 21 digits, where Bitcoin needs 34 alphnumeric characters. So account collisions are much more likely in Nxt. When you first send from a Nxt account, your public key is registered to the account, and that brings the security back up to 256 bits.
180  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: re-use of addresses on: May 11, 2014, 02:12:18 PM
I would never say address re-use should never occur.  Also for a small amount of funds the risk (and potential loss) is minimal.  Sometimes accepting lower security is an acceptable option.  The important part is making an informed decision.
I've been learning about Nxt recently. That protocol always exposes public keys (and reuse addresses). They just didn't think it was worth worrying about at all.
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 »
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!