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when you're paid to not understand something, you won't.
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Alright bud, listen. I picked that definition from dictionary.com (you call it "a place?") to provide the definition of that term. This definition is wholly relevant to its usage in monetary economics, as a "fiat currency" is a currency "by decree" of a ruler or government.
We could go to another "place" and get another definition, this time of "fiat money," specifically. The first line from Wikipedia: "Fiat money is money that has value only because of government regulation or law."
Given these two definitions provided, we can observe your statement, "bitcoin is a fiat currency by almost all useful definitions of the word fiat" and it becomes apparent that you don't quite know of what you speak. Bitcoin is in no way a fiat currency. It is not created by any government. Its value does not come from a mandate for usage.
And on "intrinsic value"... nothing has intrinsic value, for that would mean the thing has value without a human to value it. Things have value to the extent they are useful to humans and scarce. Bitcoin is both absurdly useful and limited in quantity, thus it commands a market price. You don't have to agree with the price, but at least try to make sure your statements regarding fiat money and value are valid.
I'd disagree with that. What is a government? A group of people who hold the power. In what way is the way in which a government controls currency not functionally identical to the way in which the majority of miners control bitcoin? All you are doing is swapping the suits in a grandiose capital city building for cheetos-stained tshirts in basements spread around the world. You could argue that anyone can buy a supercomputer and sway the decisionmaking process... but in the same way anyone can get a job in government? As for intrinsic value, you know what I mean. In the sense e.g. like the dollar used to be backed by gold. Do I have to spell everything out? If you want to be pedantic about it, yes, it fails the dictionary test for fiat currency. But the dictionary was written long before anyone could concieve of such a thing as bitcoin. I think if bitcoin were to become ubiquitous it would be functionally identical to fiat currency, and hence my statement that bitcoin is fiat by all useful definitions. facepalm; i'm so tired... |
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Don't even bother trying to have an intelligent conversation on these forums. It's like the mental institution in 12-Monkeys.
Are you the guy who wrote the article? No wonder you won't/can't defend it. "Bitcoin is so fantastic, its so efficient there are no fees! Wonderful! Of course to make it actually usable and as good as normal money we'll need exchange services, payment processors to absorb the volatility, a service to protect consumers by allowing chargebacks, etc...." lol. You end up just invoking some magical future in which all these bitcoin services are super-efficient. Why can't I do that with normal banking? Why can't I invoke a magic future in which banks increase the efficiency of their wire services to the point that fees are negligible when transferring currency between countries? It's not like normal banking is static and unchanging. A few years ago someone in france would have to pay exchange fees when sending his francs to a german. Now, he can send that cash straight over at very little cost. b/c the obscene banker bonuses must be maintained at a growing level as they were in 2009-10 after the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. what they would supposedly take from one hand to give to the consumers they would take back with the other hand in the form of banker bailouts or leached taxpayer interest rates in the form of ZIRP. do you know anything about economics? |
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The fine print says 'casacius' instead of 'casascius'  lmao dude can't even spell his name right. One of the two words used on the coin and he gets it wrong. Aside from perhaps the original client, has anyone ever managed to carry out a bitcoin-related project without a staggering display of incompetence along the way? I'm thinking of buying some of these, they are oddly symbolic of the whole endeavour... It's really funny, isn't it? It's as if everything built on top of it has been given the exact opposite amount of care originally put into the bitcoin concept. Proof of work? The double-spending problem solved? A distributed P2P ledger? Brilliant! Now please tell me the quickest way I can give money to a stranger to hold them somewhere in the cloud for me... Shit, they got stolen. Well, I guess the whole point is to keep them on my _own_ machine, so that I'm in control of my own financial destiny. Fuck Bernanke! It's like I keep telling my friend Steve... Shit, they got stolen. Ooh, shiny physical Bitcoins! See, just read the number right here where it says, "Casascius"-- I mean, "Casacius"-- wait... chill out dude, they're just mementos. |
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i'll tell you whats going on. the price of BTC has skyrocketed 67% in 24 hours.
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Just because you are too simple to follow an argument, it does not mean that argument is intended to obfuscate.
The guy before picked up on one section of an irrelevant definition from a place called dictionary.com to argue that bitcoin is not fiat currency. I then posted an equally relevant section of an encylopaedia article to satirise his point.
Hint: Bitcoin has no intrinsic value, nor is it fixed to any objective standard => it is fiat currency by almost all useful definitions of the word fiat, sorry
his definition was particularly appropriate. fiat currency is imposed by gov't. bitcoin is not. bitcoin has backing. it is backed by the conscious decisions of thousands upon thousands of computer owners/citizens of the world to dedicate enormous computational and electrical power and fiat USD's to ensuring bitcoin's survival thru verification and protection of the block chain. and gov'ts and banks can do nothing about this. you're right in that bitcoin is not fixed to anything; its its own currency. we just happen to like to monitor how its doing in terms of USD's. but very soon, we will be monitoring how the USD is doing in terms of BTC. |
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Sorry, I thought we were playing the quote-websites-with-the-word-fiat-in-them-to-show-bitcoin-is-not-fiat game
distract=obfuscate |
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From Dictionary.com (bold added):
fi·at [fee-aht, -at; fahy-uht, -at] Show IPA
noun
1.
an authoritative decree, sanction, or order: a royal fiat. Synonyms: authorization, directive, ruling, mandate, diktat, ukase.
2.
a fixed form of words containing the word fiat, by which a person in authority gives sanction, or authorization.
3.
an arbitrary decree or pronouncement, especially by a person or group of persons having absolute authority to enforce it: The king ruled by fiat.
From Wikipedia.org (bold added): FIAT, an acronym for Fabbrica Italiana Automobili Torino[2] (English: Italian Automobile Factory of Turin), is an Italian automobile manufacturer, engine manufacturer, financial and industrial group based in Turin in the region of Piedmont. Fiat was founded in 1899 by a group of investors including Giovanni Agnelli. During its more than century long history, Fiat has also manufactured railway engines and carriages, military vehicles and aircraft. As of 2009, Fiat (not including Chrysler) was the world's ninth largest carmaker and the largest in Italy. [3]when one can't address the merits of the argument, distract. |
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i wouldn't mind an audit either. my whole argument is how you're going about it. the way you propose will damage mtgox and i can't understand how you can't see that. or maybe you do.
Great to hear that you agree that an audit makes sense. Given that you seem to be in close contact with the former as well as the current owner: because Jed has told me it was his acct that got hacked after the SQL injection.
still doesn't absolve Mark.
maybe you can pass along the common sentiment of this thread to Mark. its not b/c i have any special privileges at all. its b/c i take an active interest in my investments and want to know the people i'm trusting as much as possible in this type of environment. all it takes is for you to go on IRC, PM him, email him, etc. and you will get answers to all your questions. and i will mention that he publish a third party audit. you should too. |
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i wouldn't mind an audit either. my whole argument is how you're going about it. the way you propose will damage mtgox and i can't understand how you can't see that. or maybe you do.
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how would this boycott prove anything? removing your funds won't prove anything. it would not make sense for mt gox or any other large exchange to leave all funds online and accessible all the time. I don't get it.
you're not supposed to "get it". he expects you to mindlessly go along with his hair brained proposal. |
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MtGox has been great for Bitcoin. Why would I punish them by using other exchanges?
Are you serious? just look in the trading activity in the past 24 hours and think about if this is what an exchange should be doing. i hear the panic in your voice as the Bitcoin price rises. |
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In contrast a great deal of thought goes into how much USD to print each month... You may disagree with the reasoning they use, but it's stupid to call it "mindless".
99.99% of the population that isn'a banker disagrees with mindless printing of USD's which bankers get first access to at 0% interest. if you or i go to the bank for a mortgage we get to pay 6-7%. the system as it is rapes taxpayers at the expense of banker bonuses and the game is rigged. you know better. OK, even if you are right (you're not)... Whats to stop them making a decentralized, P2P, fixed amount of currency bankcoin? They could alter the protocol so (say) instead of all 50btc or whatever going to miners for each block mined, a percentage of it would go straight to their accounts. Functionally identical to bitcoin for end users, with the exception that conventional banks are holding most of the reserves instead of nerds
b/c the majority of computing nodes and power is not owned by bankers and they will NOT go along with enriching banks. their block chain won't get off the mark. the gig is up Man. get used to it. the power of the internet is going to take down your handlers once and for all. btw, its happening as we speak as the Greeks are going to f*ck all the banker debt they owe. |
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The "masses" either don't care or like money printing, because hey, free money
if they don't care or like money printing then you have nothing to worry about and shouldn't be wasting your valuable time here, right? |
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OK, let's suppose that interest in your internet funbux doesn't die off and becomes quite popular. Maybe it even starts to be a competitive alternative to conventional banking.
What's to stop the conventional banks replicating it? They could have their own blockchain set up in minutes, and they have the clout and customer base to make it instantly more popular, stable and useful than the original. With a single software update they could put their version in every ATM and payment machine in the world. This beats a bunch of nerds selling slimjims out of their garages.
Sorry, do you think the banks are just going to roll over and let a new system (in which you guys are the new major wealthholders) supercede them?
The whole bitcoin thing is blinded by greed. You desperately want to be rich and powerful, and so ignore reality to construct a vision in which that happens. Your bitcoins are not going to be thousands and thousands of dollars, sorry
b/c they will never be able to create a superior product and the mere fact that they would want to control and profit off an alt chain goes against the very concept of a decentralized, P2P, fixed amount of currency. you clearly have a vested interest in not understanding what you don't want to understand. |
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I think that's debatable, but even so, it is only because the Alternatives didn't provide any meaningful changes apart from a chance to be an early adopter. At some point, one of the corporate deep pockets - perhaps a consortium of sorts - will come along and release a version of the system with a polished UI, customer support, and nicely done branding. When given the choice between a well-crafted venture with deep backing versus an initiative with so much negative baggage surrounding it, the layman will choose the former. Despite the libertarian dream Bitcoin fed into, I truly believe the only real adoption of cryptocurrency will come at the hand of a more controlled and regulated initiative.
then you really don't understand Bitcoin. the whole pt behind its success is the uncontrolled unregulated initiatives behind its creation. the mindless USD printing to save its constituent banks is what the masses hate. the only negative baggage surrounds the peripheral aspects of Bitcoin. do you really think Bruce Wagner means anything to the source code? or the various hacks of the exchanges that just allow trading of Bitcoins? come on. be real. corporate deep pocket control of Bitcoin would be a disaster. the UI is great as far as i'm concerned. easy to use, simple. sure it needs encryption and a few additional tweaks for the advanced users like being able to choose the keys from which coins get sent or received. but it WORKS and is stable and hasn't lost anyone any coins yet. the alts failed miserably in measuring up to Bitcoin. this should really make you sit up and appreciate the virtues of what it is. you would be smart to shed your handlers and buy Bitcoin as it will pay you way more in profits and stored value than what they are paying you. |
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I don't want to harm MtGox or BitCoin; however, there is not even a public policy on Marc's website about fractional reserve banking and methods of ensuring that through audits to the public. This is an opportunity for Marc! I hope he embraces it and finds me as a friend not an enemy.
You are advocating a bank run on his company. Why in the world would he find you as a friend? If I were him I would want to punch you in the face. You come in with 14 posts and are already advocating the destruction of one of bitcoin's main pillars. Why would anyone treat you as a friend? MtGox fanboy much? MtGox troll? |
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I don't understand the reasoning behind this. Why would I do this?
MtGox has been great for Bitcoin. Why would I punish them by using other exchanges?
In my opinion, this is a stupid stunt. Unless, of course, you work for another exchange and are trying to screw your main competition. Then it's an evil stunt.
If you think it is stupid, then please do not participate. No, I do not work for another exchange. I just want honest markets. We shouldn't just assume they are honest, but test them from time to time (Hold them accountable). If I was mtGox, I would fully embrace and encourage this audit and be glad it was happening. Sure, they would loose some short-term revenue, but the long term effect would ensure that they remain #1. if you truly were just concerned about transparency and open markets instead of trying to inflict harm on the main btc exchange, you would lobby Mark to undergo an audit thru more traditional means such as mobilizing a petition or contacting him directly to move in a more constructive direction. by recommending a full on bank run withdrawal you betray your true motivation which is to try and harm mtgox irreparably and to try and harm the btc community. I don't want to harm MtGox or BitCoin; however, there is not even a public policy on Marc's website about fractional reserve banking and methods of ensuring that through audits to the public. This is an opportunity for Marc! I hope he embraces it and finds me as a friend not an enemy. well then if you're sincere, you would go about this an entirely different way. your methods betray your motives. |
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If it was such a no-brainer, Bitcoin wouldn't still be relegated to the margins. Its utility vs. current usability is far overstated. Don't kid yourself. Perhaps it was the realization Bitcoins are far too easily lost, far more so than paper money.
Yes, with the advantage of being able to send money instantaneously from Alaska to Singapore with no fee and no middle-man comes the oppressive responsibility of backing up one's wallet. do you have any clue as to what you're shilling? if you're so against the concept why do you WASTE SO MUCH TIME HERE!? are you that worthless or are they paying that much? i've worked with bit coin thru and thru and can attest firsthand to all the claims made here about its efficiency and utility. |
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Cryptocurrency is an inevitability. Not Bitcoin. it IS inevitable. just like whats happening with Linux, Firefox, BitTorrent, email, Apache, Skype, Android, OpenOffice, Wikipedia.
it will evolve with the markets being the first of its kind. its already beaten off the alt chains convincingly. |
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