So you are telling me that the entire Bitcoin network doesn't even use a much power as a single Nimitz class aircraft carrier traveling at full speed.
And for that we get monetary freedom?
What a bargain.
Yes, the military and their various War Pigs use much more power than the Bitcoin network. Three cheers for monetary freedom!  Monetary freedom followed by bankruptcy once a 51% attack occurs. 51% seems like an issue we shouldn't worry too much about. The whole network is pretty spread apart now, sure some are pretty large but not 50% large. You are correct. They are not. The 51% shouldn't be an issue unless any one miner company creates an extremely efficient miner, which knc claims to have done. They literally state on their website 1/10th the energy consumption of today's hardware. Again when the block reward halves, some companies will deem that the time to get out is now. When they do that they will sell there power slowly, or they will simply shut down. That open hashrate will distribute back to the network. That is more likely the time when we are going to see a majority share. A company buy out.. or a company that creates state of the art technology that gives them the hardware edge. |
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Again you are all making a classical mistake under the assumption that added hashrate equals more network security. It DOES NOT. Individual nodes do. You know the individual miners that started this whole thing with GPU's.
Consider Farms will expand until they can no longer. Large mining farms start buying out other mining farms (Free market you keep raving about). A monopoly is possible. Don't you dare say its not. The second its not profitable some people wont mine at all. Others will for fun but their hashrate will be outweighed by the large farms that will consolidate over time.
What happens when the majority of network hashrate is owned by one farm? Your security is fucking gone and the largest farm really is the central bank now isn't it? They can manipulate the network at will REGARDLESS of overall hashrate. What matters is who owns what % of OVERALL hashrate. More hashrate does not equal more security. It means nothing.
How are you guys blind to this.
It's called a 51% attack. Yes, its possible. What's your proposal? Mine less?? huh? I'm aware. As should everyone here who's ever joined a pool. I see it on the horizon than I see it just possible. But that me man. My proposal? I don't have one. I'm looking to the people on this one. We probably have the least amount of nodes we ever did. At least in the past we had every person in the usa with an ATI video card running nodes. Now its down to who can afford asic's for basically fun, and large farms. Gavin blogged about some ideas on stopping 51% attacks but I think his ideas were far from water tight. This was an interesting read. Not sure how legit it is but a good read. What matters here is the probability that an attacker will eventually exceed the main chain if he starts from $N$ blocks back. There is a 'magic threshold' at 50% in the sense that at 50% hashpower, this probability is 100% regardless of $N$. You're correct that for every $N$, the probability approaches 100% as hashpower approaches 50%, so an attacker with even 40% of hashpower is extremely dangerous. But below 50%, the probability drops off exponentially with $N$, so in the presence of a sub-50%-attacker you can be safe by simply requiring many (perhaps tens of thousands) confirmations. |
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Again you are all making a classical mistake under the assumption that added hashrate equals more network security. It DOES NOT. Individual nodes do. You know the individual miners that started this whole thing with GPU's.
Consider Farms will expand until they can no longer. Large mining farms start buying out other mining farms (Free market you keep raving about). A monopoly is possible. Don't you dare say its not. The second its not profitable some people wont mine at all. Others will for fun but their hashrate will be outweighed by the large farms that will consolidate over time.
What happens when the majority of network hashrate is owned by one farm? Your security is fucking gone and the largest farm really is the central bank now isn't it? They can manipulate the network at will REGARDLESS of overall hashrate. What matters is who owns what % of OVERALL hashrate. More hashrate does not equal more security. It means nothing.
How are you guys blind to this.
It's called a 51% attack. Yes, its possible. What's your proposal? Mine less?? huh? I'm aware. As should everyone here who's ever joined a pool. I see it on the horizon than I see it just possible. But that me man. My proposal? I don't have one. I'm looking to the people on this one. We probably have the least amount of nodes we ever did. At least in the past we had every person in the usa with an ATI video card running nodes. Now its down to who can afford asic's for basically fun, and large farms. Gavin blogged about some ideas on stopping 51% attacks but I think his ideas were far from water tight. I do recall this! But its been a while. |
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So you are telling me that the entire Bitcoin network doesn't even use a much power as a single Nimitz class aircraft carrier traveling at full speed.
And for that we get monetary freedom?
What a bargain.
Yes, the military and their various War Pigs use much more power than the Bitcoin network. Three cheers for monetary freedom! Monetary freedom followed by bankruptcy once a 51% attack occurs. |
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Again you are all making a classical mistake under the assumption that added hashrate equals more network security. It DOES NOT. Individual nodes do. You know the individual miners that started this whole thing with GPU's.
Consider Farms will expand until they can no longer. Large mining farms start buying out other mining farms (Free market you keep raving about). A monopoly is possible. Don't you dare say its not. The second its not profitable some people wont mine at all. Others will for fun but their hashrate will be outweighed by the large farms that will consolidate over time.
What happens when the majority of network hashrate is owned by one farm? Your security is fucking gone and the largest farm really is the central bank now isn't it? They can manipulate the network at will REGARDLESS of overall hashrate. What matters is who owns what % of OVERALL hashrate. More hashrate does not equal more security. It means nothing.
How are you guys blind to this.
It's called a 51% attack. Yes, its possible. What's your proposal? Mine less?? huh? I'm aware. As should everyone here who's ever joined a pool. I see it on the horizon than I see it just possible. But that me man. My proposal? I don't have one. I'm looking to the people on this one. We probably have the least amount of nodes we ever did. At least in the past we had every person in the usa with an ATI video card running nodes. Now its down to who can afford asic's for basically fun, and large farms. |
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I rarely see discussion on the impact of bitcoin. No, not financially, not from an economic standpoint.
How about the eco-system?
Our network hashrate for bitcoin alone (there are also many alts out there) is 177,943,954.
-snip-
Where did you get this number from?  This might seem like a lot of power to you, but it actually isn't. Couldn't you say the same for everyone wasting power playing games or contributing to projects online? There are a lot of projects out there that work similarly to Bitcoin (e.g. you can donate processing power). Can you really say that energy is being wasted when it is used for operating the network? At least hardware is becoming more and more efficient, especially compared to the first ASICs. You are correct. I got mine off of the same place. No idea why i pulled that number though. So 88MW is more along the lines of 160MW. |
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Again you are all making a classical mistake under the assumption that added hashrate equals more network security. It DOES NOT. Individual nodes do. You know the individual miners that started this whole thing with GPU's.
Consider Farms will expand until they can no longer. Large mining farms start buying out other mining farms (Free market you keep raving about). A monopoly is possible. Don't you dare say its not. The second its not profitable some people wont mine at all. Others will for fun but their hashrate will be outweighed by the large farms that will consolidate over time.
What happens when the majority of network hashrate is owned by one farm? Your security is fucking gone and the largest farm really is the central bank now isn't it? They can manipulate the network at will REGARDLESS of overall hashrate. What matters is who owns what % of OVERALL hashrate. More hashrate does not equal more security. It means nothing.
How are you guys blind to this.
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WE ARE NOT COMPARING CURRENT BANKING SYSTEMS TO BITCOIN. FOR THE FOURTH TIME. READ COMMENTS IF YOU PLAN ON CONTRIBUTING TO THIS DISCUSSION.
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The government will not shutdown a company for polluting, they just regulate it. I have worked with oil/chemical companies for many years. The government allows so much pollution and if you have a spill or go over that it is usually just a small fine. Of course disaster like Exxon Valdez are a different story, but the extra pollution on a day to day is easily allowed. I can tell you 1 chemical plant can easily use well over 88.9MW of power just 1, some of the large data centers have 100MW. 88.9MW for an entire planet of BTC mining is nothing in comparison to other industries or even a single facility. I would say by your math you just proved BTC is more eco friendly then stuff we use everyday. Edit: I found this after the fact. Chemical Companies alone back in 2002 use 3.7 Quadriillion BTUs of energy or converted 1,172,284,280 MW. http://www.eia.gov/consumption/manufacturing/briefs/chemical/Your taking an entire community and comparing it to one company. A government can hold a company liable for pollution it creates. They have absolutely NO way of holding a community liable for the pollution it creates. All of your rational is very logical but its applied in the wrong way. I would for the second time state and agree that it creates less pollution than current systems. Again this argument is not about gold vs btc. Nor current banking vs btc. Its about solely the pollution created by mining. Lets stay OT. That been said I think we could all agree that bitcoin is not nearly evolved enough to maintain an entire world of banking systems. Its ready to make an appearance but its not owning the show any time soon. People just like with bitcoin, make lots of money on international banking. Like petrol.. don't expect it to go anywhere anytime soon. Not until bitcoin is a MASSIVE competitor and even then probably not. There is the 16nm 3D chip KNC claims to have developed. Don't expect to get your hands on one without a group buy. They plan on self-mining the shit out of that hardware. The claims for that are 1/10th the power usage. Maybe. Probably not. That would revolutionize computation in general much less bitcoin. |
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So you are telling me that the entire Bitcoin network doesn't even use a much power as a single Nimitz class aircraft carrier traveling at full speed.
And for that we get monetary freedom?
What a bargain.
Hey.. HEY OP W T F B B Q S A U C E P W N E D You're an idiot. Everyone else's reply was a contribution. You just look dumb. I just want to clarify, in no way do i think the way our economies work today is sensible. Everyone plays a middle man part and tacks on their percentage to make it worth while which only drives up overall cost and work through-put. This is not an argument of gold vs bitcoin. Please don't turn it into that. I created this thread for real-future-speculation.
The miners' motives do not matter. As long as they aren't using hash rate to attack the network, they are using hash rate to secure the network. Bitcoin's design turns greed into security.
I'm glad you know where the network hash rate "needs" to be in order to keep it secure. Sounds like you could design a competitive, environmentally friendly altcoin and take the cryptocurrency throne from Bitcoin!
I totally considered this. Until i found this... http://solarcoin.org/en/front-page/I haven't looked into it much but it appears you are rewarded coins for mining using solar energy exclusively. |
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does using proof of work to secure a decentralized currency seem responsible, even if it costs a lot of energy?
I say yes.
Besides, it's a free market. Who are you to tell others where and how to spend their money?
Okay I myself mine. So just hush. I'm not here telling anyone what they should or shouldn't be doing. I'm just saying think about it. Be mindful. Instead of not giving shits like you clearly do. To the gentleman who cited a Nimitz class aircraft carrier traveling at full speed.... You do realize that's a nuclear ship right? And nuclear carbon footprint is non-existent until it goes boom? Most of the world is running oil or coal for power buddy. Even the nuclear reactors we've put in america we realized were a huge mistake. Try apples to apples. You would have to be a complete moron to assume that monetary freedom isn't worth a lot. But even a moron can tell you there's a limitation to whats acceptable. I love bitcoin. I love mining. Again i'm not putting bitcoin in the spotlight. I'm putting all of our competitive mining in the spotlight. Mining farms. People driving the net-hash beyond where it needs to be in the act of greed. Don't even try to tell me KNC is in it for the monetary freedom. They are located in one of the most private countries in the world... They are in it for the $$$. Do you think they are paying there power bill with BTC? No. Its being converted into fiat to cover overhead probably along with their salaries. I'm sure they are banking lots of btc. But they aren't in it for the love of btc. A fool could tell you this. |
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I rarely see discussion on the impact of bitcoin. No, not financially, not from an economic standpoint.
How about the eco-system?
Our network hashrate for bitcoin alone (there are also many alts out there) is 177,943,954.
Now lets assume that everyone mining right now is rocking the best of the best hardware (they aren't) grabbing 0.5w/ghs. FYI electricity cost in washington is cheap. REALLY CHEAP. Due to all the hydroelectric power. That been said its about .04$ on an industrial tier. Which means they can run really inefficient hardware by our standards and still be profitable so this is a lot worse than iv'e calculated. I should note EVERYONE is flocking to washington right now with their miners. That means with bitcoins total hash-rate of 177,943,954 GH/s that its energy consumption would be around 88,971,977 Watts or 88.9 Megawatts of power.
Again these numbers are likely far below actual. I would tack on an additional 30% even for people running older hardware.
88.9 MEGAWATTS OF POWER PEOPLE
We can only assume that with the reward drop coming up that either hashrate will double or the price of bitcoin will have to rise. Maybe a bit of both as im speculating but regardless.
Does this seem responsible? We are basically polluting on a massive scale to make pennies on the dollar.
You have to assume at some point governments will come together to put this to an end?
EDIT****
WE ARE NOT COMPARING CURRENT BANKING SYSTEMS TO BITCOIN. FOR THE FOURTH TIME. READ COMMENTS IF YOU PLAN ON CONTRIBUTING TO THIS DISCUSSION.
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How much are you willing to pay, op? State your prices and I'm sure you'll get some interest but accounts with higher quality posts/history will go quite a bit higher than others.
1. Quality posts - I will be checking the account posts precisely and thoroughly.
ps: not trolling or increasing my post count. this is a serious, self moderated thread (anti bullcrap)
Not looking to sell , but I doubt people here advertise accounts that they wish to sell before the trade. You could use an escrow to check the quality of posts beforehand. I'd trust someone like Quickseller to do this. See no that's called shady business practices. You don't buy something and use and escrow to test the product with intent to lie to the escrow handler and get your money back. Remind me never to buy anything or sell anything to you. |
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Hey guys! Looking to sell a few items for btc!
-Razor Deathadder ($40) BTC0.16
-Astro A40 ($120- pretty much new, all original packaging) BTC0.5
-CX850M Power supply ($100) (used for 2 months) BTC0.41
-19" Flat panel display 720p+ ($40-old as piss but works fine) BTC0.16
+ Others I will list later!
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1. Quality posts - I will be checking the account posts precisely and thoroughly.
ps: not trolling or increasing my post count. this is a serious, self moderated thread (anti bullcrap)
Not looking to sell , but I doubt people here advertise accounts that they wish to sell before the trade . Also currently the thread isn't self moderated. I concur. Good-luck with 1 & 3. Completely negates selling an account lmao. |
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Euro my friend euro
How many of them are you selling for 2000 euro? |
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Some nice stuff but the "Warning: Trade with extreme caution!" is turning me away too bad  Just chiming in here because i saw this. Look at the feedback and make your own judgement call. Just some things i noticed. 1) Everyone who left him - feedback currently has negative trader ratings except two people. 2) The two people that left him neg feedback who have positive feedback were all involved in loaning btc or gambling. A stupid ass idea in the first place. I would give the seller a shot, of course using a trusted escrow which he said hes willing to do. I don't see much risk factor when using a trusted escrow. |
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Bump!
Dude i'm going to throw an offer of BTC0.8 in there for one card. Doable? Don't kill me for the low ball its just what i can afford currently. Can't knock ya for an offer, but 0.8 BTC is pretty low. Did you have anything to trade in addition to that amount? Hmm I have Razor Deathadder barely used. They go for $70-80ish depending where you grab them. Also have a astro a40 headset that i used for 10 minutes before i put that away. I have the original packaging for the A40's but not the adder. Also check out my thread over here: -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1091571.msg11695012#msg11695012I sell that software for BTC0.02 in a readable version. I sell the full version for BTC0.2. I'd be willing to get you a full version copy plus my BTC0.8? Lmk i put up a few options there You don't by chance have an LED flat screen tv to trade for the whole card, do you? Unfortunately, I'm pretty limited to needing what I can easily convert to cash, or what will directly help me finish my home remodeling project. My living room needs an LED tv. Hmm I do have some TV's. I'm not sure its in the realm of what you're looking for but ill shoot ya what i have! - 40" Westinghouse LED 1080P. It's about a year old. Only thing with this is it needs to be wall mounted or you'll need to get my tv stand because i don't have the original base/stand for the tv itself. Here's the stand http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/z-line-designs-z-line-designs-jaguar-tv-stand-for-tvs-up-to-65-fs3179-42m29u-fs3179-42m29u/10265211.aspx-28" Samsung LCD 720P. I don't think this is an LED but i'm not sure. Has original stand and everything, i need to check into this though because i believe its a 32". |
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Bump!
Dude i'm going to throw an offer of BTC0.8 in there for one card. Doable? Don't kill me for the low ball its just what i can afford currently. Can't knock ya for an offer, but 0.8 BTC is pretty low. Did you have anything to trade in addition to that amount? Hmm I have Razor Deathadder barely used. They go for $70-80ish depending where you grab them. Also have a astro a40 headset that i used for 10 minutes before i put that away. I have the original packaging for the A40's but not the adder. Also check out my thread over here: -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1091571.msg11695012#msg11695012I sell that software for BTC0.02 in a readable version. I sell the full version for BTC0.2. I'd be willing to get you a full version copy plus my BTC0.8? Lmk i put up a few options there edit** Also I have a 5 digit steam account i'm also selling. That's worth a bit more BTC. Also have another 7 or 8 digit account with a good amount of games on im also selling. If either of those interest you just let me know. |
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