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181  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: [GUIDE][AMD][NVIDIA][CPU]How to Mine AEON Cryptonote-light + Miners Downloads ⛏ on: November 17, 2017, 10:57:53 PM
Many thanks to the OP for getting this thread going. I have mined many coins but AEON seemed a bit tricky to set up. I tried it a few weeks ago but couldn't get it running for some reason on any of my 4 rigs. But now I am ready to give it another try with the new STAK release and this thread.

I have already generated my AEON wallet a few weeks ago and just downloaded "XMR-AEON-SUMO-STAK 2.0".  I have unpacked it and looked at the 2 .txt config files but I have a couple of questions that Im hoping someone can help me with"

1- Since there are 2 config files included, how does the .exe know which one to reference?  Do i need to delete the "config" file and leave the "config - AEON" file intact if i want to mine AEON with this?

2- Within the config - AEON file, the only thing i need to do is replace the existing address with my own wallet address, correct?  The pool and port are already what i want them to be (pool.aeon.hashvault.pro:5555) and the currency already shows "aeon".

Is there anything else that I need to do settings wise or in the config file or is that it?

FYI... I am running four 6x RX470 rigs on W10. Still running Crimson 16.10 as i've heard of too many nightmares with the Blockchain drivers.

Thanks in advance for the advice!
The AEON config is for easy start. Miner always use config.txt. For AEON rename config.txt and use the AEON one or edit the config.txt for AEON. Change cryptocurrency to AEON, add your wallet, pool and password. Doesn't matter which of these 2 options you will do.
You can enable port for web stats. GPU and CPU config are separate in their own files. You can use same config as for Monero.

Thanks for the quick reply!  that first part makes good sense... I will just re-name my config - AEON file to Config as I've already updated those fields in it.

However, what do you mean by "GPU and CPU config are separate in their own files"?  I don't see any other files in the pack except dll's and and "nocpu.bat" but there are no parameters in the latter, seems just like a way to launch the .exe.  If i have my GPUs already setup through afterburner and watt-tool, is that sufficient? or is there something else I need to do in the miner set up?
182  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: [GUIDE][AMD][NVIDIA][CPU]How to Mine AEON Cryptonote-light + Miners Downloads ⛏ on: November 17, 2017, 10:37:34 PM
Many thanks to the OP for getting this thread going. I have mined many coins but AEON seemed a bit tricky to set up. I tried it a few weeks ago but couldn't get it running for some reason on any of my 4 rigs. But now I am ready to give it another try with the new STAK release and this thread.

I have already generated my AEON wallet a few weeks ago and just downloaded "XMR-AEON-SUMO-STAK 2.0".  I have unpacked it and looked at the 2 .txt config files but I have a couple of questions that Im hoping someone can help me with"

1- Since there are 2 config files included, how does the .exe know which one to reference?  Do i need to delete the "config" file and leave the "config - AEON" file intact if i want to mine AEON with this?

2- Within the config - AEON file, the only thing i need to do is replace the existing address with my own wallet address, correct?  The pool and port are already what i want them to be (pool.aeon.hashvault.pro:5555) and the currency already shows "aeon".

Is there anything else that I need to do settings wise or in the config file or is that it?

FYI... I am running four 6x RX470 rigs on W10. Still running Crimson 16.10 as i've heard of too many nightmares with the Blockchain drivers.

Thanks in advance for the advice!
183  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: Cryptopia Cryptocurrency Platform Services and Development on: November 17, 2017, 07:33:31 PM
Hello Lafu... really hoping you can help me with a problem I have had with your site for almost a week.

I created my acct a few months ago and moved a bit of $ in alts to test it out.  I recently got back from a long biz trip and tried to log on for the first time in probably over 1 month but I get the message that my acct is locked.  I have since sent 3-4 requests through the site ticket system but have not heard anything back yet and my acct is still locked.  Can you please help me get this unlocked?  If so, please PM me with the details you need.

Thanks!

So, i FINALLY heard from support via the 1st ticket I opened... this was 1 week ago today and the ticket was from a week before that. They said they could un-block my account but needed some details about recent transactions to validate. I sent my estimate of the few coins i moved over and have not heard back since (1 week ago today) and my acct is still blocked. So, i just sent another reply after finding the exact amounts I transferred to them. What I cannot understand is how waits of this length are acceptable.  2 weeks and counting and not even an estimate as to when I can expect to be able to use my account! This is especially frustrating since I have been mining Electroneum and would like to move some over to my Cryptopia walled.

Lafu... is there anything you can do to expedite this?

edit: got your pm Lafu, thanks. I didn't reply because very shortly afterwards, I got a response from support via email. Not sure if you had anything to do with that but if you did, thank you.

So to summarize, in the hopes that this helps someone else down the road, this is what happened.

- I am now back in my acct
- It was blocked because of a hack back in Sept
- Unfortunately, the hack successfully liquidated the $1k USD I had in 3 wallets
- There were multiple failed login attempts before they got in, and this is what has be baffled. Shouldn't all sites of this nature automatically block accounts after 2-3 failed log-in attempts?  they had to run many many attempts to get in so how on earth could my acct not have been blocked after this?
- In addition, i had security protocols in place to prohibit unauthorized withdrawals, which worked... almost! But instead, the hackers decided to just liquidate my funds by selling off some lame-as$ unknown coin at 3% of the going rate. I guess they had another account on Crypopia that bought those up and they got the $ that way, but in all honesty, they should have stop-gaps in place to curb this type of obvious fraudulent activity, because after all, nobody on this planet is going to sell something at 3% of what they just bought it for!

Bottom line is that all of this indicates logically that Crytopia should be returning my balances to my wallets on their site, but there was no mention of this in the email from their support. They just apologized for any inconvenience.

I just responded with my expectation of full restitution and will report back here when i receive a response.

184  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Sixth alt coin thread I forgot to mod last thread. on: November 17, 2017, 06:59:22 PM
Hey everyone... just wanted to get some thoughts about Vega 56. It seems they are drying up very quickly now and I've snapped up a few but wanted to get some people's thoughts about a few theories I have.

This seems like a somewhat similar situation to what happened with the 4xx series GPUs eariler this year... mining demand is outpacing supply at the moment so many places are out of stock and those who do have them are starting to charge 25-50% over retail for them.  Granted, it;s not exactly the same since 4xx's were being EOL'd, hence no more new ones entering the supply chain. But, could AMD really have under-called the demand for this by this much?

By contrast, there are plenty of Vega 64's on the market. I'm assuming this is because the 56 is a much better mining card?  Is it true that 56's can essentially be flashed to effectively be a 64 speed wise, but consume a lot let power than a 64?  If this is true, then it makes sense why the 56's are becoming scarce. Although it's true that they really only dramatically outperform Nvidia on 1 algo, but that apparently is enough for a lot of people.

Normally, you would think that there would be a soft cap on prices for 56's since there are still plenty of 64's available for around $600.  But who knows... if the Hash/$ is quite a bit better with a modded 56, I wonder how much people would be willing to pay for them... maybe even more than a 64?

And, I guess the other potential factor here is when will the fan-based versions of these start to come out. Anyone know how long it usually takes for this to happen?  I don't want to go crazy trying to get the current blower-based 56s if the fan-based versions are likely on the near horizon. 
185  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Sixth alt coin thread I forgot to mod last thread. on: November 15, 2017, 06:22:33 PM
So back to Electroneum (ETN) for a moment. The price backed off a bit since the .045 high... now at around .037 but still showing as the most profitable coin to mine (for 470s) currently.  Here's the weird thing though... last night while looking at the CoinMarketCap listings for the umpteenth time, I noticed that ETN mysteriously disappeared from the list.  I just checked again on the app and their website and it's still not there. Yes, it lost about 20% of it's value since being ranked around #25 at ~$250M but even after the drop should still be around $200M or top 40 for sure, but it is nowhere on the list at all.  Has anyone seen this happen before?  Hopefully it's not a bad omen ;-)
186  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Sixth alt coin thread I forgot to mod last thread. on: November 14, 2017, 05:50:26 AM

Yeah I tend to agree with that last statement citronik... but one new-ish wrinkle is Electroneum. Right now it is 2x more profitable to mine than XMR...

a note of caution...these are theoretical numbers because ETN is only trading on ONE exchange (Cryptopia or something-never heard about it before) PLUS it is not even fully released yet PLUS the CEO is not a technical guy, who keeps talking about hackers and how they were swooning on him.

Anyway, my biggest beef with etn is that none of the pools are able to stand straight for several days. They keep popping in and out for at least several hours at the time. The french one was out during at least part of the weekend, for example; now I don't see the hashparty, etc, etc.

yes - wasted a whole day of hash yesterday - BTG and ETN while good for miners since its GPU mine-able -- I think they need to get their act together - pools are shiatzs - dont get me started on the wallets.... go download the ETN one on Playstore or Appstore.... its non existent - LOL why launch if there is no official wallet?

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.electroneum.app



what do you mean no wallet lol?  they have an excellent paper wallet that you create by moving your mouse around then you get a bright and shiny PDF with your #s lol.  Joking of course... I do agree it certainly wasn't a seemless launch but we'll see what happens. I really just wanted to a change up to the $20/day for the last 2 months.  May get burned if ETN blows up but to me the possible upside is worth the minor risk of not mining $20 of XMR per day. Time will tell.
187  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Sixth alt coin thread I forgot to mod last thread. on: November 14, 2017, 02:29:19 AM
BTW, Suprnova has a ETN pool, with 860 workers  Grin
...and doesn't fucking pay anything. I wasted several hours trying to mine ETN on suprnova today. Got paid a fraction of the hashrate I contributed. Tweeted them, messaged ocminer, no answer. Switched to pool.electroneum.space and immediately the coins started flowing in as expected. That's where I'm staying until further notice. I'm now staying clear of Suprnova as much as possible. One day, if I feel like it, I'll run parallel hashing and I'll expose the bloody skimmer. Sad

hey dragonmike... I too have had similar issues with suprnova in the past and have avoided them like the plague since.

Good to hear you had success with pool.electroneum.space as I think i need to move off the main US pool uspool.electroneum.com.  Very soon after switching my 16Kh/s over to ETN this morning this pool showed that i had been paid 38 ETN but since then has not moved even 1. It shows my hashrate correctly and accumulated hashes (almost 200M now) but no increase in ETN and i've heard others having similar issue. I think I will point all 4 rigs over to the pool you mention and see what happens.
Look, I can't really say how that pool is in the long run, I've read some good stuff about it in the pools-subforum here, and so far, it seems to deliver. Plus, it's located in Europe (Germany) which is closer to me than the US pools. Hope it keeps delivering! Smiley

yeah i've been on it for a couple hours now and it's much quicker to update coins earned than the main dev pool.  Funny thing that the other pool updated my coins earned to 200 (seems about right for time) about 15 minutes after i switched all 4 rigs to that "space" pool.  My ping time is worse with the new pool but earnings seem to be about the same, so will stick with it a while and see how it goes. 

The price of ETN keeps going up... now at 4.5 cents, making ETN almost 2x more profitable to mine vs anything else at the moment.. at least for my 470's.  Nice to see but pretty sure this is gonna draw a ton of hashrate from elsewhere and spike the difficulty.  It's kind of a weird dynamic in that I want it to go up, but not too much lol... until I accumulate a shyt-ton of it of course Wink
188  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Sixth alt coin thread I forgot to mod last thread. on: November 13, 2017, 10:40:26 PM
BTW, Suprnova has a ETN pool, with 860 workers  Grin
...and doesn't fucking pay anything. I wasted several hours trying to mine ETN on suprnova today. Got paid a fraction of the hashrate I contributed. Tweeted them, messaged ocminer, no answer. Switched to pool.electroneum.space and immediately the coins started flowing in as expected. That's where I'm staying until further notice. I'm now staying clear of Suprnova as much as possible. One day, if I feel like it, I'll run parallel hashing and I'll expose the bloody skimmer. Sad

hey dragonmike... I too have had similar issues with suprnova in the past and have avoided them like the plague since.

Good to hear you had success with pool.electroneum.space as I think i need to move off the main US pool uspool.electroneum.com.  Very soon after switching my 16Kh/s over to ETN this morning this pool showed that i had been paid 38 ETN but since then has not moved even 1. It shows my hashrate correctly and accumulated hashes (almost 200M now) but no increase in ETN and i've heard others having similar issue. I think I will point all 4 rigs over to the pool you mention and see what happens.
189  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Sixth alt coin thread I forgot to mod last thread. on: November 13, 2017, 08:21:54 PM

All my Nanos -- 45 of them are modded with Heliox (aka Eliovp) ROMs - tamed at 100mv.
The were king during the early ETH days with R-390s but Nanos are blessed with HBM v1 thats why its a good Equihash miner.
Now VEGAs also wth HBM v2..... how do they fare in Equihash? I heard nothing but bad press.... but strong in Cryptonite algo.
That is too much money for HBM v2 only for strong Cryptonte mining....

Yeah I tend to agree with that last statement citronik... but one new-ish wrinkle is Electroneum. Right now it is 2x more profitable to mine than XMR so I switched my modest 24 rx470's over to it this morning. Obviously it is still very volatile but if it holds the momemtu it might entice me to at least build 1 rig with Vega 56.  There are also some other pretty decent coins to mine on that Algo.  Certainly I don't think I would invest even half of my miners in Vega at this point, but could certainly see converting 2 of my 6x 470 rigs: one to 4x Vega 56 and another to 4-5x 1070ti maybe?
190  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Claymore's CryptoNote Windows CPU Miner v3.5 on: November 13, 2017, 02:26:20 AM
I find this very strange that apparently the Elec team linked to Claymore CPU miner for CN but neglected to ask him to update to include their coin lol.  Clearly there is no mention of Elec on this page and this CPUU miner has been on v3.5 for a very long time.

Claymore, could you possibly update your miner to  include Elec capabities?  I am mining with the site official miner now but quite sure yours will be faster once you updated Wink  thanks!
191  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Sixth alt coin thread I forgot to mod last thread. on: November 12, 2017, 05:35:04 AM

My 3.4 bcc is now worth quite a lot

yeah, BCC now around $1,800... unfortunately BTC is taking a beating.  Luckily I am heavily diversified into many alts so not killing me too bad but still... not great to see it drop ~$1,500 in 2-3 days.

As for my BCC holdings... I held 3 BTC at the time of split. The 1 I had on Bittrex I converted to BTC right away. That move was looking great up until today lol.  I also held 1 BTC on my Ledger Nano S at the split and haven't touched it yet. I didn't really care when it was at $300 but now I need to look into how to get access to it.  The 3rd was on Coinbase. I remember hearing that they would be eventually be splitting/supporting BCC but like in Jan'18 or something. I remember thinking what a rip off that was since it would likely be worthless by then but if this holds at all, I was completely off base on that one. Wonder if that is still in the works or not.

Also really liking the huge spike in ETC at over $21 now is the #1 most profitable coin to mine now... at least for Rx 400/500 cards.

192  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Sixth alt coin thread I forgot to mod last thread. on: November 12, 2017, 12:42:10 AM
Hey everyone... I just switched over 2 of my rigs from mining MUSIC+DCR to ETC+DCR but got a dramatic drop in hashrate on both machines (about 25%)... not only with ETHash but also on DCR.  I rebooted, triple checked the settings, but everything checks out.  I am using a bit older Claymore dual miner (9.2) but since I am still running rx470's didn't think this could be the problem.  The change to the .bat file was literally just 1 digit to the port (using MiningPoolHub for both MUSIC & ETC), so I am baffled as to what could be causing this drop.

Has anyone experienced something like this?  I am still running crimson 16.10 drivers... maybe that is the problem, meaning i need to finally go to the 17.xx Blockchain drivers?  but I was trying to avoid that as I heard some horror stories about power management early on.  And also, why would that affect my hashrate on DCR?  Any suggestions would be appreciated!
193  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Anyone can suggest a DCR pool other than suprnova.cc? on: November 10, 2017, 10:34:28 PM
yup... give CoinMine.PL a try.  I've been mining DCR there without any issues for probably 4-5 months or more now.  I also mined DASH there without issues until my Baikal Mini was recently rendered useless by all of the Antminers hitting the network. Very solid performance across the board for all the coins I've used them for.
194  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: What to mine today?? on: November 09, 2017, 08:49:37 PM
I used MinerGate before and was never able to withdraw the coins I mined. Complete scam.

we all know it is a scam!!!! you have to mine with miner or nicehash not others... apart winminer which is still under testing

MinerGate is not a scam... I started out on in before I learned how to do real mining and was able to move off every single fraction of coins I earned there.  It's a decent place to start out for newbs who are learning about mining, but you will eventually need to go to Claymore or Wolf miners or Nicehash if you really want to earn the most out of your rigs. 

Also, certainly MusicCoin is still profitable and not only that, it's been right on par with or better than ETH for the past few months now. As others have mentioned, a simple check of whattomine will show this, although certainly all newer coins do not show up on there.
195  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Sixth alt coin thread I forgot to mod last thread. on: November 09, 2017, 06:40:56 PM

RX470 rigs are still difficult to upgrade, tbh, as it's impossible to get as much bang for the buck currently... And they're still chugging along nicely. I've been contemplating a Vega56 rig for a while but I just can't seem to make the step. Mostly for logistical reasons... But time to breakeven is definitely a big factor.

 Vega at this point only seems to be good with Monero - and only then on Win 10 as the bloody blockchain driver needed to get good Monero hashrate DOESN'T WORK on Win7.
 (Perhaps LINUX, as I think AMD finally got around to updating the LINUX driver).

 Thank goodness I didn't get my Vega 56 card with the intent of mining on it.




yeah... XMR is what I ran my 470 to Vega-56 ROI scenario on as it appears Vega can get close to 3x the hashrate of my 470's on Cryptonite algo.

Assuming I could get $200 each for my 470's and replaced them with 4 Vega56's, I figure my ROI at only about 60 days.  That is also assuming a total at wall wattage of 1KW for the 4x Vega's.  Anyone here know if that is close? 

I'm assuming that I cannot go any higher than 4 Vega's mainly due to lack of extra 8-pin PCIe power connectors. My 1200W PSU only has 4 x2 so if both power ports need to be filled on Vega's I think this would be limited to 4 of them. But, if those 4 will take anywhere close to 1000w then I wouldn't have enough headroom to add a 5th Vega anyway.

This isn't quite a no-brainer yet but if XMR were to have a few more good days and hold, it's probably a worthwhile endeavor... at least on 1 of my 4 rigs to start.



Eh, 3x 470's?  Not really, but at least 2.2 - 2.4 and slightly less power draw when set up right.  You do need both power ports filled on the top of the Vega, but you can get Y splitter cables that plug into a 6-pin and then branch out to (2) 8 pin connectors.  Three Vegas will mine 5,600/5,700 and draw under 600 watts from the wall, so a fourth should not take that over 1K. I personally would not add a 5th to a single 1,200w PSU though.

Thanks for the feedback.  For me at least, the 1850-1900 hash-rate of Vega-56 is almost 3x what MY 470's are running currently but I am only running them at 1825 clock speed due to having some unknown issues with this particular rig running any faster (likely 1 dicey 470). So, I am only getting about 3950 total on XMR, which is about 650/GPU... so 1900 would in reality be nearly 3x for me ;-)

Good to know about the splitters and wattage... but if you're pulling less than 600 for 3 Vega's, wouldn't it stand to reason that 5 Vegas should pull less than 1KW?  Anyway, I would very likely only start with 4 and see how that works first before even considering adding a 5th, but good to know about the splitter option if I end up having enough headroom power wise.

Does anyone happen to know if there are any Mobo/Chipset restrictions with Vega?  I read somewhere about this but couldn't validate it.  I am running an Intel G3258 on a Biostar TB85 Mobo & 8 GB RAM . Any perceived problems running 4 Vega's on this?

Finally, I wanted to ask about model/brands for Vega's. At this point only reference models available. Does this essentially mean that almost all available Vega's are the same, just branded differently? 

For instance... any difference at all between these 3?
- MSI $420  https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814137228&cm_re=vega_56-_-14-137-228-_-Product
- PowerColor $400  https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814131730&cm_re=vega_56-_-14-131-730-_-Product
- Gigabyte $390   https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814932001&cm_re=vega_56-_-14-932-001-_-Product

196  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Sixth alt coin thread I forgot to mod last thread. on: November 08, 2017, 10:12:23 PM

RX470 rigs are still difficult to upgrade, tbh, as it's impossible to get as much bang for the buck currently... And they're still chugging along nicely. I've been contemplating a Vega56 rig for a while but I just can't seem to make the step. Mostly for logistical reasons... But time to breakeven is definitely a big factor.

 Vega at this point only seems to be good with Monero - and only then on Win 10 as the bloody blockchain driver needed to get good Monero hashrate DOESN'T WORK on Win7.
 (Perhaps LINUX, as I think AMD finally got around to updating the LINUX driver).

 Thank goodness I didn't get my Vega 56 card with the intent of mining on it.




yeah... XMR is what I ran my 470 to Vega-56 ROI scenario on as it appears Vega can get close to 3x the hashrate of my 470's on Cryptonite algo.

Assuming I could get $200 each for my 470's and replaced them with 4 Vega56's, I figure my ROI at only about 60 days.  That is also assuming a total at wall wattage of 1KW for the 4x Vega's.  Anyone here know if that is close? 

I'm assuming that I cannot go any higher than 4 Vega's mainly due to lack of extra 8-pin PCIe power connectors. My 1200W PSU only has 4 x2 so if both power ports need to be filled on Vega's I think this would be limited to 4 of them. But, if those 4 will take anywhere close to 1000w then I wouldn't have enough headroom to add a 5th Vega anyway.

This isn't quite a no-brainer yet but if XMR were to have a few more good days and hold, it's probably a worthwhile endeavor... at least on 1 of my 4 rigs to start.


197  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Sixth alt coin thread I forgot to mod last thread. on: November 08, 2017, 06:33:21 PM
Ugh RIP my alts ever recovering.

Don't be too sure about that... as of now at least, most alts making a nice comeback.  BTC dropped back down to about $7500 but many alts starting to tick up at the same time... many approaching double-digit % gains!:

ETH - up to $311
XMR - up to $107
ZEC - up to $247
Dash - up to $305

if this holds/continues... it will be the incentive i need to finally start upgrading my RX 470 rigs ;-)
198  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Sixth alt coin thread I forgot to mod last thread. on: November 08, 2017, 06:01:56 PM

Ahhh! wondered what caused the +~$400-500 price bump overnight lol!  That bump aside, this alleviates a lot of worry for me.  I had read some very disturbing things about what could have happened if this was executed, which had me seriously considering liquidating a decent % of my portfolio. At least now I can rest a bit easier. Thanks for posting!
199  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: Cryptopia Cryptocurrency Platform Services and Development on: November 08, 2017, 01:41:02 AM
Hello Lafu... really hoping you can help me with a problem I have had with your site for almost a week.

I created my acct a few months ago and moved a bit of $ in alts to test it out.  I recently got back from a long biz trip and tried to log on for the first time in probably over 1 month but I get the message that my acct is locked.  I have since sent 3-4 requests through the site ticket system but have not heard anything back yet and my acct is still locked.  Can you please help me get this unlocked?  If so, please PM me with the details you need.

Thanks!
200  Economy / Exchanges / Re: Cryptopia problems - locked account & no response from support on: November 06, 2017, 06:47:11 PM
Anyone else experiencing issues with Crytopia?  I just sent my 4th message through their site in 5 days... acct still blocked for unknown reason and not even an automated response to any of my messages. Luckily I only moved a few $ in alts here as a test but this is still very disturbing.  Anyone with an alternate way of contacting them?
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