[07:09] <csshih> you want bitcoin dev to fail, and solidcoin to take over?
[07:09] <Phoebus> I've given BTC a good try, made a few hundred trades -- even bought services in btc. But overall, the project needs to mature....
[07:09] <gavinandresen> Ok, I've said what I came to say, I'll catch y'all later.
[07:09] <shadders> gavinandresen: give it up.. yr dealing with a child
[07:10] <csshih> take care gavin
[07:10] * gavinandresen has left #solidcoin
[07:10] <Phoebus> gfinn, more fair based on how much the coin is actually worth - if you're paying more fees than using paypal or a cc, it's just wrong, especially when pp is instant.
[07:10] <@RealSolid> csshih: sure, the better system should succeed in the end
[07:10] <@RealSolid> gavin is just delaying it

[06:35] <gavinandresen> Hey everybody.  Is RealSolid here?
[06:35] <@RealSolid> in my lucid moments
[06:36] <gavinandresen> So you asked in private message on the forums why you should report denial-of-service vulnerabilities to Jeff or me....
[06:36] <gavinandresen> ... and I thought that would be obvious.
[06:36] <gavinandresen> You seem to be upset with us for some reason-- did I say something somewhere to offend you or solidcoin?
[06:37] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: no not you but your other developers
[06:37] <gavinandresen> Well, I can't speak for the other developers, but I personally would appreciate it if you let me know of any vulnerabilities or deficiencies in bitcoin.
[06:38] <gavinandresen> No software is perfect, and bitcoin is way-very-far from perfect.
[06:38] <@RealSolid> i know that, having changed a lot of it
[06:39] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: the SC network was attacked by one of your supporters/developers
[06:39] <@RealSolid> in artforz
[06:39] <@RealSolid> now someone is doing the same attack to btc
[06:40] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: but the issue i found is more relating to being able to potentially crash clients and run them out of memory
[06:41] <gavinandresen> ArtForz isn't a bitcoin developer.  He is very smart, though, and you should listen to him (he helped find a couple of nasty bitcoin bugs last year)
[06:42] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: so youre promoting his attack on the network
[06:42] <gavinandresen> No.  He should have done what he did on the solidcoin test network.
[06:42] <gavinandresen> (you do have a test network, right?)
[06:42] <@RealSolid> sure if anyone runs it
[06:43] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: but he didnt do it
[06:43] <@RealSolid> and your support of a hacker is interesting
[06:43] <@RealSolid> "no he shouldnt have done it , but boys will be boys come on"
[06:44] <gavinandresen> Hackers and script-kiddies are a fact of life, which is exactly why I'm asking you to let me know when you find potential issues.  So we have a chance to fix them before the hackers take advantage of them.
[06:44] <@RealSolid> csshih: hes essentially supporting a known hacker who has caused chaos for thousands of people
[06:45] <@RealSolid> artforz did it mainly just to piss of solidcoin users
[06:45] <@RealSolid> and i find the developer of bitcoin semi-supporting him by telling me to "listen to him
[06:45] <@RealSolid> as rather offensive
[06:45] <gavinandresen> You should listen to ArtForz, as I said he's very smart.
[06:46] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: ok you should listen to him too then, get him to fix your bugs
[06:47] <@RealSolid> if gavin wants to come here to tell me to listen to a blackhat hacker
[06:47] <@RealSolid> he is trying to be offensive
[06:47] <gavinandresen> Ok, this is silly, I don't want to get dragged into "you're supporting a KNOWN TERRORIST!"
[06:48] <gavinandresen> I came here to ask RealSolid to be responsible and report problems or vulnerabilities to the core bitcoin dev team before releasing code that fixes the exploit (because releasing code tells the hackers what to attack).  RealSolid, I'll ask again:  are you willing to do that?
[06:49] <@RealSolid> you ask me to be responsible when your team and supporters are hacking the SC network
[06:49] <gavinandresen> They aren't "my" supporters.  It is not even really "my" team
[06:49] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: if they arent, then i dont understand your tone, maybe youre ignorant about the situation
[06:49] <gavinandresen> (and did Pieter or Jeff or Nils do somethign to solidcoin?)
[06:51] <@RealSolid> we're drama queens
[06:52] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: we've had 2 weeks of many of your developers trashing solidcoin
[06:52] <@RealSolid> and then weve had some of your biggest supporters hacking/exploiting/spamming the networtk
[06:52] <@RealSolid> for you to come in completely ignorant and tell me to listen to the main hacker
[06:52] <@RealSolid> annoys me
[06:53] <@RealSolid> so either you pull the people in line who are supporting you and your project or i dont help your project
[06:53] <@RealSolid> i dont appreciate your people attacking us
[06:53] <gavinandresen> If you watch the talk I gave at the bitcoin conference a couple of weeks ago, I say my #1 qualification for being the project lead is having a thick skin
[06:54] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: i dont understand how you can come here completely ignorant about the last 2 weeks
[06:54] <gavinandresen> My advice to you if you want solidcoin to be a success is to step away from the keyboard when you're annoyed.
[06:54] <@RealSolid> its like you were living in cave
[06:54] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: SC will be a success because i know how to develop successful products
[06:55] <@RealSolid> am i the one asking bitcoin developers for help?
[06:55] <@RealSolid> gavin is here asking me for help
[06:55] <@RealSolid> and he is being offensive in the process
[06:56] <@RealSolid> csshih: artforz is the known hacker, there are others
[06:56] <@RealSolid> gavin came here and told me to listen to the hacker
[06:57] <@RealSolid> csshih: i didnt realize he was a hacker
[06:57] <@RealSolid> until the attack
[06:57] <@RealSolid> he is writing utter bs on the forums about "Warning me"
[06:57] <@RealSolid> he talked to me about 51% attacks
[06:58] <@RealSolid> then he just spams the chain using low fees
[06:58] <@RealSolid> csshih: it doesnt matter if gavin has nothing to do with it, him not knowing the situation and telling me to listen to a hacker is offensive
[06:59] <gavinandresen> So RealSolid, I want to make sure I understand why you decided to create solidcoin-- you think core bitcoin development is going way too slow, and we're not open to new features that will make it better.  Do I have that right?
[07:00] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: that is correct
[07:00] <@RealSolid> i already discussed many of the improvements i wanted in bitcoin prior to starting it
[07:00] <@RealSolid> and no one thought they were needed
[07:01] <@RealSolid> the only option is to create what i thought was the better design
[07:01] <gavinandresen> Well, it is all about risk/reward.  And with core bitcoin, the risks are very high, partly because Satoshi isn't around and he is the only person who really truly deeply understands all of the code.  But mostly because we're talking real money here.
[07:02] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: i understand your hesitance with touching working code
[07:02] <@RealSolid> however the code is a big mess
[07:02] <@RealSolid> and theres so many issues with it and i havent even finished
[07:02] <gavinandresen> ... and several groups are working on re-implementing it, which I support.
[07:02] <@RealSolid> oh?
[07:02] <gavinandresen> What I don't understand is if you want bitcoin to get better, why would you prohibit changes from flowing back upstream?
[07:03] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: because of the morons in your dvelopment team, and other supporters trolling us
[07:03] <gavinandresen> Okey doke.  Like I said, if you want to lead an open source project you'd better have a really thick skin.  That's just the nature of the beast.
[07:04] <@RealSolid> its open source, ask before you use
[07:04] <@RealSolid> simple
[07:04] <Snapman> if you need permisson, that means you allow some, disallow others, that isnt open source..
[07:04] <shadders> ask before you use but don't bother if you're a bitcoin dev coz the answer's no...
[07:04] <Snapman> more liek selective source
[07:04] <@RealSolid> shadders: i never said no to him using source
[07:05] <@RealSolid> hes asking me to pinpoint one of the vulns i know about
[07:05] <@RealSolid> even though the source is there
[07:05] <@RealSolid> ie he wants a short cut
[07:06] <gavinandresen> I would like you to send me private email about vulnerabilities BEFORE releasing source.
[07:06] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: id like you to tell your supporters to not attack SC
[07:07] <@RealSolid> quid pro quo
[07:07] <gavinandresen> Again, they are not "my" supporters, and if I start trying to tell them what to do they'll just laugh at me.
[07:07] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: thats not the impression i get
[07:08] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: you apparently know artforz and think good things about him
[07:08] <Phoebus> What's the big idea? We want a project like bitcoin to really make it, or bitcoin itself. Are we on the same side? The rest is just group dynamics, us vs them BS.
[07:08] <@RealSolid> its not like you have no say to people like him
[07:08] <gavinandresen> Phoebus: +1
[07:08] <@RealSolid> shadders: i dont waste my time with such things, id rather write working code
[07:09] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: i think you should step down from bitcoin development and let it fail
[07:09] <@RealSolid> because its going to fail soon enough
[07:09] <gavinandresen> Ok, I've said what I came to say, I'll catch y'all later.
[07:10] * gavinandresen has left #solidcoin