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So does anyone think that maybe BFL isn't being quite honest?
...lol...You think? To be honest, I'm waiting for the class action to be brought against them. They would certainly lose and it would bring down their house of cards once and for all (lots of people I'm sure would be pissed, but just as many would be happy I'm sure--maybe more). They have done irreparable damage to the community unfortunately. Curious. What is the irreparable damage? A lot of people heard about BTC because of their claims, and then heard of their "failures". All in all with BFL's known tactics, as well as its favorite customer base makes everyone involved look depraved. What could have happened several months ago did not, and the great amount of disappointment reeks up the entire room. What could have happened yesterday, would have led to a completely different today. But tomorrow I will still remember yesterday, and what it could have been. Oh yeah, you are luke-jr, right? You settled for less than right, because you are still better off than others.. In that case, of course it's not pompous to question everyone else's lack of fulfillment. /sarcasm Sorry, no I'm not luke-jr. I'm lucasjkr. Back in early 90's I could have my screen name on many sites just be "lucas". But lots of other Lucas' started using the internet. So then I had to be LucasK (but apparently there are other people named Lucas with that last initial as well) then LucasJK (but again, lots of people with those initials). But "LucasJKr is rare (if i try to sign up on a site and the user name is taken, it's usually because I already registered there before). So, no relation to luke-jr and I certainly didn't choose my screen name to cause confusion. I still don't see any irreparable harm that they caused. Sure, they caused a sting and some disappointment, but such is life. The community itself seems to be operating just fine, Asic miner and Avalon are doing their things, and lots of rumors of future devices on the horizon (KNC Miner, for instance). Hardly irreparably harm. I also don't get the constant complaint of the bitcoin denominated returns. People who paid in BTC rather than dollars in mid 2012 complaining that their 2013 investment won't return as many bitcoins. Nevermind that Bitcoin is worth 10x more today as it was then, and never mind that nobody but nobody knew what the future held. Sure, bitcoin was at $6 in June and higher ever since. that was hardly pre-ordained - it could have just as easily did what it did from June 2011 to June 2012 (ie, lost another 80% of its value). And if anyone thinks they really did "know", why pay in BTC at all? Why not just have used dollars? BFL was a pioneer in the ASIC community for bitcoin miners. They absorbed a very large portion of the wealth among early adopters and the general bitcoin community. People who believe in bitcoins and invested in this company with the expectation that they would come good on their promises to deliver an Asic machine in Oct 2012. After many many promises later, fast forward to Jul 2013 and still very few people have had that promise fulfilled and the backorder log is so substantial that at the current shipping rates the company has almost no hope of delivering goods to all customer hands. This is irreparable damage. It's called opportunity cost. You take funds from one bucket of people that could have continued to invest in other areas of the community. Invested in a different manner they could have continued to further benefit the community and general bitcoin population instead of being tied up in a company that has provided almost ZERO real world value comparative to the money invested in them. Drum up the PR nightmare for fraud and misrepresentation that Butterfly and guys like Josh have created and the pile grows. There is the possibility it only continues to get worse as well. We can assume the company delivers all units tomorrow from its backlog and the damage is constricted only to the opportunity cost. If the alternative ensues, the company continues to fail to deliver and worse files for bankruptcy and ends up fighting litigation for failure to deliver products and refund customers then the stain on the community is egregious. |
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I believe you when you say my logic escapes you. You are apparently unable to understand simple concepts, even though I've tried to use simple methods to explain them. Something as advanced as logic would be difficult for someone to follow if they can't grasp the language they are trying to use.
Here, let me try to be even more direct with you, try to follow along:
This is false, also known as a lie, since you a) have no way of knowing if we can or can not fulfill preorders. Also a lie since you are unaware of the actual laws surrounding the FTC. However, I will grant you a pass on the "lie" portion of the FTC regulation. Lots of people think they are lawyers on the internet, but have absolutely no idea what they are talking about when it comes to legal matters. This is you.
Another false statement, also known as a lie. You, again, have no way of knowing whether or not we are barely fulfilling preorders. You know exactly zero information about our orderbook.
For all intents and purposes, this is a restatement of your first point. So again, it's either a lie or you are yet another clueless internet lawyer. You may THINK you know what the laws are, but you obviously don't.
Lets go over this, shall we? Why do you think the customer is always first? Let me guess, you've heard the tired old saw 'the customer is always right!' correct? Guess what? Not true! It's a false business methodology that has been proven to be detrimental to business. It's a hold over from the 70's and 80's that has wrecked many a-business.
Here, let me help you out:
It's called "fire your customer", there's lots of articles books on it. Read up. Customers who post lies and misinformation for no particular reason other than to troll or prevent others from purchasing (thereby believing they are enhancing their purchase value) are not the kind of customers we want.
Again, grow up and accept responsibility for your actions instead of throwing a tantrum on an internet forum and blaming others for your mistakes.
Josh, why don't you reread exactly what you said. I took out my quotes and left you with just your own words. How does that read to you? I'm pretty sure that is the least concerted effort I have ever seen to communicate with a customer in a professional manner! You couldn't have used much more inflammatory language there. If you can fire me, why won't can't I fire you? By the way, the customer is in fact always first. I didn't say the customer was always right, but you would probably attribute that to my reading comprehension skills. You're in business to serve the customer bud. I really was trying to help you out there with the Small Business Article. You could really benefit from some positive customer service skills. My favorite quote though is this one. "Again, grow up and accept responsibility for your actions instead of throwing a tantrum on an internet forum and blaming others for your mistakes." |
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Not a question mark to be had. Just a bunch of misinformation and outright lies. Gosh, I wonder why you got the response you did? Especially after I pointed out your whacky, unrealistic "hindsight investment strategy" you seem so proud of, then where you then proceeded to throw a tantrum because you were unable to understand "all sales are final" which is plastered on nearly every page of your order process.
Josh, let me help you out a bit. "How to Handle Online Reputation" for Small Business. This is a good start. Tip for July 19, 2013 Overcome Negative Publicity Combat negative publicity with an honest and professional response. If due to a mistake or error, acknowledge it and offer to make amends. Engaging dissatisfied customers can demonstrate your commitment to delivering good service. Go a step further by using the experience to teach others how to avoid their own mistakes. http://www.manta.com/small-business/handle-online-reputation?referid=16216 |
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That's the hard part about this. You make an investment with a company on good faith that they will deliver a product, and sure enough they fail. Butterfly doesn't even do it gracefully, you come asking questions and they tell you that "you don't understand english" and "go whine somewhere else". Meanwhile, they've taken your money and are now refusing to give it back even when they have no reasonable expectation to ship something to you! What if? As that's never happened, it's are you trying to imply that it is? You didn't "come asking questions" as innocently as you are trying to make it out to be. Here, let me quote you: Look, Butterfly Labs is a scam. There is no other way to put it, unless you were one of the first few who received their orders. Let's be clear on a few points.
- Butterfly continued to accept preorders when they could not fulfill them or have a reasonable basis for delivery (this violates all FTC regulations)
- Butterfly is continuing to ship units at whatever rate they can. Realistically, they are barely fulfilling preorders that are up to a year or older
- Butterfly is now refusing refunds. That's right, if you placed an order you cannot get a refund. The reasoning that Butterfly uses is that "all sales are final" and "orders are shipping". Let's get something straight. If an order isn't in your hands or actually in the process of assembly and shipping, the sale is no where near "final" and every customer is entitled to a refund. If you ordered in May, you will not receive your unit until sometime near December. There is no excuse as to why that order can't be refunded, end of story.
Last but not least, no respectable company, especially one looking to make a name for themselves in a virgin industry, would conduct business like Butterfly. Being represented by folks like Josh is disgraceful, if one of my employees acted in that capacity he would be fired on the spot. The customer is always first. Not a question mark to be had. Just a bunch of misinformation and outright lies. Gosh, I wonder why you got the response you did? Especially after I pointed out your whacky, unrealistic "hindsight investment strategy" you seem so proud of, then where you then proceeded to throw a tantrum because you were unable to understand "all sales are final" which is plastered on nearly every page of your order process. Josh, your logic makes no sense to me. You literally quote facts that disprove your own argument and call it misinformation and lies? Everything I said was accurate, the day you were called out on selling preorders it changed to "order now" on your website. Your company IS NOT shipping units fast enough to catch up on backlogs, which also means you do not have the manpower or production to meet the sales that you have taken from customers. Further, you cannot withold funds from a sale if there is no product to back it up. "All sales are final" does not apply when you do not have the product being prepped for shipping. Guess what, ordering parts doesn't make the product built, packed, or ready to be shipped either. You just can't withhold those funds, end of story. Go back to my quote, the customer is always first. I am in fact a customer. Why don't you move to the back of the line and find some way to make it right for the rest of us? That's your job. |
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Guys just let this one go. BFL will be burned to the ground at a later date. Trust me.
That's the hard part about this. You make an investment with a company on good faith that they will deliver a product, and sure enough they fail. Butterfly doesn't even do it gracefully, you come asking questions and they tell you that "you don't understand english" and "go whine somewhere else". Meanwhile, they've taken your money and are now refusing to give it back even when they have no reasonable expectation to ship something to you! Fast forward 6 months and you still haven't received that single you ordered... and Butterfly took your money and refused to refund it... Hard to let it go... |
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ThomasV has it mostly right and volatility is decreasing. Following the April pop I had pegged BTC around 75 and it will settle somewhere in that range. You don't need to adjust anything yet. As Bitcoin gets adopted by more individuals, processed in more transactions, and finds it's way into everyday life you will see stabilization and continued growth.
You can't stop inflation. Yes it's built it, but even if it wasn't, economies don't grow without any inflation. No inflation means no growth. The same concepts that apply to basic public finance and economics will apply to bitcoin. Bitcoin might be an online currency, but it is a currency just like all FIAT and will obey the same principles. Currency allows for economy and economy will also always behave according to basic fundamentals. In fact, it's behavior will closely resemble other modern day economies purely by association in this day and age.
All I'm saying is, don't go messing with code and mining just yet. The process has gotten it this far, you would be tweaking something that isn't broken yet.
It's worth pointing out that in every economy, early adopters are taking the most risk thus reap the most reward. Another basic fundamental. There would no incentive without it.
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The statement was that we did not refund preorders. We did. We are no longer taking pre-orders and we are not refunding orders that are currently in the queue, that's correct.
It was stated multiple times that all sales are final when you ordered. What part of that were you unable to understand? We can't be responsible for your lack of reading comprehension or ability to understand simple English sentences. Sorry for your reading disability, perhaps next time you should get someone to explain what terms and conditions mean to you before placing and order. Now put on your big boy pants and accept responsibility for your actions instead of whining to me why you are unable to function in normal society and you should be a special case.
You have no business skills. This is absurd, I've had more logical conversations with my 4 year old. Look Inaba, all sales are final doesn't apply when a product hasn't even been built. At best you could make the claim it is on backorder, but that isn't accurate either. Fact is you are hiding behind terrible customer service. It's a violation of FTC regulations. You had your chance to come clean. The truth is right there and instead you came back with more bloated responses. Stop bashing your customers. "Reading Disability", I'm sure every customer wants to hear that from the company they ordered from. And then you pour salt in the wound by refusing to refund that customer? Get some business sense, take some courses at a community college even. That should at least give you a basic understanding of how to treat customers and make logical business arguments. Good luck. |
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Nope, only those that make up falsehoods and outright lies. You are welcome to disagree as long as you stick to the truth. Try it - stick to the truth when disagreeing with me and see if you get bashed. Hasn't happened yet. (You've already failed this round, looks like, see if you can make your next post contain nothing but factual information.)
Now that we've got some truth out there--how about this? Refund my order, I will stop telling people that BFL is refusing to refund orders. It would show that you guys aren't completely ignoring customers, and I will even post back here saying you've refunded it. Will I forget it took me nearly a month to get a refund, multiple emails and all the crap I've gone through to get it? Probably not. Now with your next response we'll get to see how logical, ethical, and prudent your business's actions truly are. Inaba, put your money where your mouth is. I'll take greenbtc up on this too. If you prove publicly you are willing to refund his order, that would prove good customer service. This is a solid option, thumbs up. What's it going to be? |
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Yes, we refunded preorders when asked, is your implication that we didn't?
You can't handle the truth.  Your company is and has been refusing refunds. For product that has not been built yet and you cannot provide anticipated delivery time on... AMD and Intel would never conduct business like that. The best part is you fully understand what I'm saying, you are just in outright denial of the "truth". Don't ask for something you don't want to hear. Every word you say and everything you do represents your company. It is damn near impossible to find posts where you conducted great customer service. Posts where you act unprofessional and disregard the opinions of your customers are in abundance. The way you handle yourself says alot about Butterfly and frankly, as I said before, I wouldn't recommend your company to anyone. |
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Hey, hindsight is a great way to invest. Since you're so good at hindsight investing BBazaar, can you tell me how many billions of dollars you have made? Oh, what's that? You're just a poor slob without any sort of connection to reality? Sorry... from the way you were talking, it sounded like you had cracked the secret of predicting the market with 100% accuracy.
If you knew the bitcoin price was going to go up last year, why didn't you put hundreds of thousands of dollars into bitcoin at that time? That's right, because you didn't know... no one *knew*. So unless you've perfected time travel, you should probably move along.
Amazing to me that you are even trying to defend your position. What position Inaba? So you think you're company has conducted business in the most ethical and prudent of manners? You took preorders when you knew they could be filled in a timely manner? You refunded preorders when asked? Maintained transparency? Under promised and over delivered? I tell you what hindsight is good for, correcting all your company's blatant mistakes. You don't come back at customers and slander them with insults when they have been wronged by your company's practices. I'm interested in knowing what the vision is for Butterfly, what type of company are you trying to build? Here is a suggestion. Do some damage control. What you have done to your customers is a disservice, why not come to terms with it and make some amends? In this world every mistake you make will be amplified to the tenth degree and the best thing you can do is mitigate the damage. You parade about like a child bashing everyone who disagrees with your almighty opinion. Time to get humble. Oh and you know what else hindsight is good for? Regretting ever having purchased a product from your company. I've waited two months and I'll be waiting another 6 months or more. Butterfly has refused refunds before the product I ordered even shipped 1 unit, and none since. The truth is, I wouldn't recommend Butterfly to anyone I know. |
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i ordered my product from butterflylabs like 2months ago sitll nothing i agree this company is nothing but a scam
Ha! Think two months is long? I ordered an SC on June 26th, 2012 and just received it last Friday. 381 days. It will likely NEVER make me back the 120 BTC it cost me. Congrats on receiving your order at least. Once you take into account the currency growth you could have had as well as the missed time mining... definitely a painful transaction. Now the flipside? If Bfly took your 120BTC on June 26th, and assume they didn't order the parts for the unit you received recently until April when they finally cashed in your coins, then they were worth $24,000. I'd say it's pretty obvious they benefited from the delays while you suffered. |
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Look, Butterfly Labs is a scam. There is no other way to put it, unless you were one of the first few who received their orders. Let's be clear on a few points.
- Butterfly continued to accept preorders when they could not fulfill them or have a reasonable basis for delivery (this violates all FTC regulations)
- Butterfly is continuing to ship units at whatever rate they can. Realistically, they are barely fulfilling preorders that are up to a year or older
- Butterfly is now refusing refunds. That's right, if you placed an order you cannot get a refund. The reasoning that Butterfly uses is that "all sales are final" and "orders are shipping". Let's get something straight. If an order isn't in your hands or actually in the process of assembly and shipping, the sale is no where near "final" and every customer is entitled to a refund. If you ordered in May, you will not receive your unit until sometime near December. There is no excuse as to why that order can't be refunded, end of story.
Last but not least, no respectable company, especially one looking to make a name for themselves in a virgin industry, would conduct business like Butterfly. Being represented by folks like Josh is disgraceful, if one of my employees acted in that capacity he would be fired on the spot. The customer is always first.
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I might consider a bitcoin T-shirt, but this just isn't appealing. Something a troll/dwarfy looking fello with money in his eyes... Not sure I'd want my kids to see me wearing that  |
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