Thank you for the technical post. Hope this answers some.
Thanks for your productive response. I actually own both DRK and CLOAK, so want to understand the systems better. Obfuscation. You have to think about PoSA like tor.
1. We can black list malicious nodes and rely on the fact that there will be so many nodes on the network (unlike centralized masternodes) that the majority will not be spy nodes and to find any relevant data will be next to impossible. Nothing is 100% approaching limits is the best way to handle things.
You can only black list nodes if you can detect that they are doing something bad. There is no way to detect which nodes are the malicious nodes that are spying because other than recording transactions, they perform their duties perfectly and are upstanding citizens according to the protocol. However, they secretly record the links between transactions and publish them publicly elsewhere (example, their own de-anonomised block explorer). 2. Same question as 1
Indeed. 3. 2 levels out of a random selection. powers of two magnify probabilities of not being interfered with exponentially.
The problem is that 2^1 is only 2. To leverage the power of two, you need to add more layers of anonymity. For example, 8 or 10 steps, so you get 2^10 = 1024. However, the problem is that would slow down transactions too much. 4. Again the same questions
No. It's quite different. My 4th question is about someone stealing funds, not anonymity. Blacklisting is only a first defense and I have no idea if it is even going to be implemented, just a thought and it is a weak one. About layers of anon.. you forget that you have as many nodes as you have on the network to randomly be assigned to. We have already been thinking about ways of prevent nodes from knowing when a posa tx is incoming. Packet sniffing is an issue we are combating. |
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Also whats to stop a bad actor from creating as many wallets/nodes as he/she wishes and capturing the data / stealing incoming transactions. This was done with XC rev 1.0 and the same applies to Cloak's design.
A system we have put in place to require a small investment to be a node thus stopping unlimited bad nodes by investment deterrence. small investment...isnt that the same as masternodes for DRK??? additionally, how will you blacklist - XC had its dynamic learning trust system which went down the drain....any black listing system is easily flawed and centralized. Obviously black listing will not be enough. No you will not have to have 1000 CLOAK like a masternode. But if you want 1000 nodes on the network spying it will cost you. You have not thought this through. Coin quantity is not the factor as it moves dynamically with price...1000 drk coin cost $10 back in the day. If cloak even had 10 coins to become a node, in 5 years that price might be unobtainable for most....get my point??? so essentially it is the SAME as DRK masternodes. You must be a day trader. Our code is not static and there is no node price setting. This is a network |
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Is there no other way around it without having to buy nodes like darkcoin? seriously this will just get cloak labeled as darkcoin light  This is POS remember. This is not buying or being taxed by nodes like DRK. |
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Also whats to stop a bad actor from creating as many wallets/nodes as he/she wishes and capturing the data / stealing incoming transactions. This was done with XC rev 1.0 and the same applies to Cloak's design.
A system we have put in place to require a small investment to be a node thus stopping unlimited bad nodes by investment deterrence. small investment...isnt that the same as masternodes for DRK??? additionally, how will you blacklist - XC had its dynamic learning trust system which went down the drain....any black listing system is easily flawed and centralized. Obviously black listing will not be enough. No you will not have to have 1000 CLOAK like a masternode. But if you want 1000 nodes on the network spying it will cost you. The confusion of the network is not worth the cost. |
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Also whats to stop a bad actor from creating as many wallets/nodes as he/she wishes and capturing the data / stealing incoming transactions. This was done with XC rev 1.0 and the same applies to Cloak's design.
A system we have put in place to require a small investment to be a node thus stopping unlimited bad nodes by investment deterrence. |
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Just reviewing the cloak coin anonymity claims. This is interesting quote from the Whitepaper: "Again in the Phase 2 pass the originator and recipient are not recorded, instead the transaction occurs between the Phase 1 and Phase 2 nodes."
My problem with this is:
1) the transaction are broadcast and, thus, propagated to all nodes. A malicious node could simply record all these transactions and easily publish the records linking the transactions.
2) the elected node could itself be a spy and publish records of these transactions for all transactions it pretends to anonymise.
Further, there are a few other serious problems:
3) there are only two levels of mixing, which is hardly enough to provide any real guarantees
4) no mechanism is described that would prevent an anonymising node from stealing outputs
Hopefully my concerns and questions can help put the discussion back on to a productive track.
Thanks.
Obfuscation. You have to think about PoSA like tor. 1. We can black list malicious nodes and rely on the fact that there will be so many nodes on the network (unlike centralized masternodes) that the majority will not be spy nodes and to find any relevant data will be next to impossible. Nothing is 100% approaching limits is the best way to handle things. 2. Same question as 1 3. 2 levels out of a random selection. powers of two magnify probabilities of not being interfered with exponentially. 4. Again the same questions Thank you for the technical post. Hope this answers some. |
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Supercoin propaganda. I can tell you that we have been thinking about and developing systems to stop attack vectors from bad nodes. I don't need to explain more. You will see. |
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I have to admit, the CloakSend/PoSA looks promising, but I have not seen any proof that it's really working already. Closed tests and youtube videos rather make me suspicious. And no, I'm not attacking CLOAK, I just want to get hands-on features first.
It seems nobody of the CLOAK-fans knows an answer to my question. Or is no answer the answer I was looking for? didn't chaeplin decloak cloakcoins posa yesterday? Decloak cloak? Never going to happen! Wait till PoSA rolls out! well it looks like he did decloak cloakcoins anon just like he did xc. xc is now being redesigned as a result of chaeplin test. is there a bounty for decloaking the posa? https://darkcointalk.org/threads/cloaksend-2-0-posa-fake-or-legit.1868/#post-13186He "decloaked" cloak from a video. I am a current... and non-anonymous tester that will release a new video of working PoSA if I have to. Although I don't feel I need to justify anything. It is good that you are looking out for scams but you must look another way. |
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After listening to Cloakcoin community members LazyCoins have decided to offer 0% fee on all trades.
Thank you for helping us improve our services.
Very cool. I wish you guys the best of luck and will have to take some cloak over there and give you a shot. |
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Cloak ofcourse and not DARK. This is pretty simple, because DRK uses the nodes and since nodes can be manipulated it is NOT 100% decentral, hence not completely anonymous.
CLOAK PoSA however is the first coin that is completely decentral anonymous.
You seem like a real expert. Could you explain this PoSA with your own words, and also how it combats Sybil attacks, eavesdropping, and blockchain bloat, thanks! You got me  i am not the expert you are looking for. But nodes.. Nodes? The holy grail is decentral. And nodes are not. What if nodes are in the wrong hands? Besides this; darkcoin is great, but currently way overpriced. Cloak however is still pretty young and cheap! PoSA is an evolving project and there are plenty of sources to read about how it works on a macro level. You can always come chat in the IRC if you have questions. sybil attacks - The devs have implemented a function that will prevent bad actors from flooding the network. eavesdropping - Packet sniffing is not going to release information that the blockchain does not know. You need to be able to draw a correlation between traffic flow and address holder to weaken anonymity and the devs are hard at work making sure you can't. Remember we are not using "masternodes" so traffic is obfuscated and too hard to read. If you could read all of the traffic you still can not draw a link to address owner. "blockchain bloat" - Cloak is implementing OneLedger to significantly reduce the necessary amount of blocks that need to be stored as well as prevent timing attacks and other PoS vulnerabilities by eliminating the need to use a time stamp server to prove block validity. Hope this answers some of your questions. |
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Panic dump on Mintpal, da fuck is going on?
You call that a panic dump?  It is is less than 5 BTC, just some dude cashing in or perhaps a couple of dudes, it is not a dump. My fault cashed about 14 BTC over the past hour. Perfect timing... I'll take those cloak ty very much You're welcome. Needed the cash. Good Luck!! Hopefully we will see you back when funds allow! Good luck to you as well my friend. |
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Panic dump on Mintpal, da fuck is going on?
You call that a panic dump? It is is less than 5 BTC, just some dude cashing in or perhaps a couple of dudes, it is not a dump. My fault cashed about 14 BTC over the past hour. Perfect timing... I'll take those cloak ty very much |
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You're in early now. Enjoy the ride. I'm with you in regard to the fact that I'm probably high print on any of the last upward spikes in cloak. Hold with conviction. There are 18 BTC between 'last price' and 150k on cryptsy. That is 18x612=11016K. It's not gonna take much to move the market and besides that, there is not more supply available. We may see a mini-bubble in prices, it just happens sometimes.
Bravo to you all with those 12-18K prints.
OK this means nothing, it also does not take much to tank the price back to 18K. In fact, this is true of many altcoins, and the less liquid they are, the easier it is to move the price, but it still means nothing. You will have to pry the cloak you need to dump our price down from my cold dead hands =) |
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Voxelot is now even a tester for the BETA PoSA wallet!!! so there is another person from the community added Thanks for the warm welcome. Happy to test. I can report that I have received my first two PoSA transactions and I am having a hell of time figuring out where they came from =) |
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I did a week ago when the testers where feeding back the TXID's on the end outputs into the IRC channel. My mind was totally blown. You simply can not just try to follow the stream of inputs/outputs via the explorer and figure out the source. They also did some in real time in the channel. It was simply amazing to watch. edit: not a week ago, my bad, it was Sunday night I think. That is awesome. It is really easy to get that "too good to be true" feeling from all of the dev and testing that is going on behind closed doors but they keep releasing evidence that this code is running and is being perfected in a professional manor. Just want to say thanks to all the testers and devs. I have even offered to put my name on the line and test and confirm that all the testing is legit if needed. Nathan Ginnever here. Honest Computer Science graduate student at Cal State LA. Nice to meet all of you! |
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Wondering how responsive, passive or lazy Cloakers are. Did anyone contact coindesk or is working on something? Someone that has a good understanding of the original features of Cloak would be best. They will need to be impressed. I think the only problem with getting a coindesk article is that CLOAK is not finished yet. Once PoSA and the market are up and running there will no doubt be an article written. |
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711+ dark masternodes. http://drk.poolhash.org/darksend.htmlBut really it just added feature to tax their own users/miners, and promote buying 1000coin chunks. Heh, a tax on your own users for "anon" participation. I can think of a piece of software that can burst data to 711 servers.. cough nmap... cough.. not saying I would if I had the list. CLOAK really is a more elegant solution if they can pull it off like the testers say they can. |
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All staking wallets will be nodes, I like that concept.
Question, since drkcoin has only a few master nodes, wouldnt it be easy for an attacker to just DDOS those nodes and bring a halt to payments?
Technically I think you're right. If an attacker was able to DDOS all of the master nodes then they would be screwed. http://wiki.darkcoin.eu/wiki/FAQ#What_happens_if_a_Masternode_is_DDOS.27ed.3FDoes anyone know how many master node dark has? Anyone with 1000 DRK and the technical know how to secure a server can start a masternode so there could be a lot in theory. In practice it is hard to secure systems and there is money on the line so I bet there are not too many nodes. I'm not sure what it would take to find all of them. |
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All staking wallets will be nodes, I like that concept.
Question, since drkcoin has only a few master nodes, wouldnt it be easy for an attacker to just DDOS those nodes and bring a halt to payments?
Technically I think you're right. If an attacker was able to DDOS all of the master nodes then they would be screwed. Simply if a node goes down you move to the next available so if you get a list of all the nodes then poof. There goes DRK. http://wiki.darkcoin.eu/wiki/FAQ#What_happens_if_a_Masternode_is_DDOS.27ed.3F |
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