Thank you for your answer. I also expect Coinlab to be able to answer this. There is one further question to you regarding 2). Yes of course it depends on Canada's tax laws, but it also depends on the tax treaty with the country where the entity I am dealing with is located. The first question my accountant or lawyer will ask me is: Is it Japan or the United States? So I must ask you this question again.
That's complex, because while you are currently dealing with MtGox Co. Ltd, a Japanese company, according to Japanese laws the trades do not happen in Japan. If you're in Canada, you're hitting our San Jose intermediate datacenter, which means that based on Japanese laws, trades happen there. |
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It is not that simple. Canada and the United States are very different countries with very different laws. In fact when it comes to opening an account with a Canadian financial institution I would not be surprised at all if a Japanese citizen or entity would have have a way less problems than a US citizen or entity. The reason, which I suspect is the same reason behind this deal, FACTA. In any event here is a list of questions I placed in another thread on the Canadian issue.
Actually for a Japanese citizen or company, it is impossible to open a bank account in Canada, except if holding a Canadian visa or creating a Canadian subsidiary, while a US company can ask its bank to have a deposit method available in Canada and route transfers to Canada domestically. Some questions from the perspective of a Canadian MtGox customer.
1 ) What is the location of the assets held BTC and fiat held by MtGox on behalf of the customer Japan or the United States?
2 ) What is the location for tax purposes where the trades take place Japan or the United States. Furthermore which tax treaty will apply to the business relationship that between Canada and Japan or that between Canada and the United States?
3 ) Which country's privacy laws apply to personal information of the customer Japan or the United States?
4 ) Will the customer be required to change banking information for withdrawals already on file with MtGox?
5 ) Will a Canadian customer be able to continue to receive funds in US dollars into a US Dollar account with a Canadian bank?
6 ) Will the customer be required to provide an IRS form W-8?
7 ) Will withdrawal limits change as a result of this for Trusted and Verified customers?
8 ) Will there be any restrictions as a result of this for logging into MtGox by Trusted or Verified customers from outside of Canada and the United States for example while travelling?
9 ) Will USD on deposit benefit from FDIC pass through insurance?
and some more that I thought about later.
10) How will the Canadian dollar denominated MtGox accounts be impacted by this?
11) What measures if any has Coinlab to comply with Canadian financial laws and regulations. Has Coinlab completed any of the registrations required in Canada?
12) How familiar are the principals of Coinlab with Canada and its laws and regulations. Have any of them visited Canada?
13) How will Coinlab deal with the Canadian GST/HST?
14) Will Coinlab be providing service in French? This is a requirement in many parts of Canada
Welcome to Canada / Bienvenue au Canada
1) For now all BTC assets are still held by MtGox Co. Ltd. in Japan. Already explained this earlier, but basically we are waiting for CoinLab to have a deposit handling system secure enough first. 2) It depends in which country you are located (ie. on you own country's tax laws). For more details please contact an accountant or lawyer in your own country. 3) For Canadian customers who accepted CoinLab's ToS, privacy policies will be those specified in there. 4) Customer withdrawal data will be ported, however customer has the option to ask for his banking information to be removed (by contacting the support) prior to transfer. 5) Of course 6) No idea, it depends on US and CA laws. I believe CoinLab will be able to answer that. 7) It depends on US implementation of FATF rules, which I believe are mostly similar to Japan. I believe CoinLab will be able to answer that. 8 ) Shouldn't. 9) I guess it should since CoinLab is registered as MSB, however I'll let CoinLab reply to this. 10) No impact unless the holder is either Canadian or American. Canadian and american customers will see their balance in USD and CAD ported over to CoinLab upon accepting the CoinLab ToS. Any balance in other currency will have to be closed and converted to one of CAD/USD/BTC. 11~14) I'll let CoinLab reply to this. |
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Both Canada and Japan have way stricter privacy laws than the United States so I would not be surprised if a Japanese company denying service to Canadian customers because the latter choose not to waive their privacy rights to a level below that of both Canada and Japan is against the law in both Canada and Japan.
You realise a private company can refuse to do business with you for pretty much any reason which doesn't violate human rights agreements? They're well within their rights to stop servicing North American (or any other) customers, to change their ToS, to make all sorts of other changes you might not like. Your remedy is not longer dealing with them if you don't agree to those changes. Actually, US and Canada have many banking agreements and similar system, making it easy for a US entity to open an account in Canada or the other way around. It makes sense to handle both countries at the same time in order to reduce deposit/withdrawal fees at the same time. |
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So will my bitcoins be held in Japan or USA in a months time if I do nothing?
If you do nothing (ie. do not accept CoinLab's ToS on MtGox), then your funds are still held by MtGox Co. Ltd. in Japan (bitcoins and currencies). How do I know if my account is considered a US/CA account or not? Is this determination based on the IP address used when you opened the account, the source of funding or something else?
We base this on various information, including source of funds and IP address. If you used Dwolla (which is only available to US customers) or if your bank reported you as a US citizen when sending funds to our bank, then you are automatically considered a US citizen. If you ever connected only from the US, you are also considered a US citizen. If you believe there was a mistake (ie. when we go live the site asks you to accept CoinLab's ToS), you will be provided an option to specify that you are not a US or CA citizen. Such cases will be reviewed case by case afterward so we can find out what went wrong. Will the US government have the potential ability to immediately seize any of Mt Gox/Coinlab/Customers cash and/or bitcoins after this transition?
I take it that currently the US would have no jurisdiction to seize assets from a Japanese company, in Japan, but if those assets are now held in the US, by a US company does that not open up that kind of situation?
If the US government were to seize assets from Coinlab in the US, would Mt Gox still cover all customers' balances/deposits (including US customers)?
I do not believe having the funds held in the US would make any easier or more difficult for the US government to seize funds should it find a good reason to do it. Please note that as you accept CoinLab's ToS, you are in direct contract with CoinLab and no longer with us. In even something would happen with CoinLab (which is unlikely), we would be unable to interfere directly. |
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Handing over 80% of the bitcoin users details certainly makes network analysis a whole lot easier. When combined with access to the bitcoin foundation database thats a massive data goldmine.
You're over-estimating the number of US customers, or under-estimating the rest of the world. |
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The general trend in the US is toward having the security apparatus hoover up more and more information, and keep it for longer periods of time. Of this I am fairly confident.
I also expect that at some point involvement with Bitcoin in any way could well be considered 'fraudulent activity' for the purposes of obtaining data acquisition authorizations.
If Bitcoin involvement is ever considered "fraudulent activity", it'd mean we have failed (not only MtGox, but Bitcoin as a whole). I have faith in Bitcoin (and our legal advisers do too) and that's why I'm still here pushing for things to move in the right direction. If you believe you are doing something wrong just by the fact of using Bitcoin then let me know. |
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Can't see this obviously spelled out elsewhere...
What about non-US, non-Canadian Mt.Gox customers, do their records and day-to-day interaction with MtG stay in Japan, or is everything moving to California...?
Non-US/CA customers have no change at all. All data remains here. Since your statement is a little bit vague, I'm going to continue to assume that Mt. Gox complies with most or all subpoenas, court orders, and search warrants and honors all gag orders which might accompany them. Particularly if they come from Japan or a government with friendly relations to them. Please feel free to disabuse me of this misconception if you feel inclined.
Assuming that the conversation is supposed to be taken to mean transfer of information except those outlined above, it's not the protection of my identity information while Mt. Gox remains a viable entity which bothers me so much as what happens should Mt. Gox shutter it's doors.
Japanese privacy laws are actually stronger than the one you may find in other countries (for example USA). If you want to know more about our privacy policies, you may want to read them. Either way there is no way a company, no matter where it is located, would be able to go against an order from a court of its own country. This said, unless you are involved in some kind of fraudulent activity, there is little to no chances that your data would be ever the subject of a court order. |
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i'm not sure what country you live in, but since this new entity is going to be located in the USA, there are privacy laws in the USA that would prevent such information from being handed over w/o person's acknowledgement
Oh that's good to know  . Joe Actually we have the same kind of laws in Japan, and no data will be handed over without approval. |
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Hang on a second. Where in the MtGox TOS does it say MtGox has the authority to sell sensitive identity information to third parties without the express written permission of the account holder. Last time I checked with wasn't a merger. I gave my identity documents to MtGox not Coinlabs.
Did it even occur to you that you have right to that information? I guess not. Client's identities are just something to be bought and sold to the highest bidder. When you grow tired of playing Bitcoins I am sure you will sell off financial and identity information to anyone who will throw a few dollars your way.
MtGox did not sell users identities, and acted in the best interest of its users to ensure CoinLab had no access to said data. None of users private information will be shared with CoinLab until the user accepts CoinLab's ToS on the site. If you choose to never accept CoinLab's ToS, then your data will never be shared with CoinLab. |
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The killer app for a Bitcoin exchange would be... The killer app for a Bitcoin exchange would be to always show the correct "Last price" on their home page, a feature that I would like to see come to MtGox soon:  Will the Gox / CoinLab integration also include this "feature?" Already explained this a bunch of times, but I will again. The last price shown on MtGox is the price for the last trade, no matter which currency. If someone buys a lot in another currency than USD, he'll end paying more (in his own currency) than the highest price in USD, but will not cause the highest USD price to move up. I explained this quite a lot already, and the ticker API provides various varieties of last price. |
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Will US and CAN customers be paying higher fees than customers in other countries?
No. |
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Will their be any changes in fees?
No change at first, however we will work with Coinlab to release a new fee schedule for everyone (with the increasing bitcoin price, our current fee schedule is not adapted anymore as many pointed out). |
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Americans are by far the largest buyers on Mt.Gox. If they are taken out and have to trade with a third party, who sets the price of Bitcoin then?
Take a minute to think about this!
American/Canadian traders still trade on the same market as before, and will continue to be able to use MtGox.com. What changes is the ToS that will no longer be between you and MtGox Co. Ltd., but between you and CoinLab. |
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if they are bringing over accounts automatically, i am presuming this will include the account history.
i wonder how many people will be filing amended tax returns as a result.
For your account to be brought over to CoinLab, you'll first need to accept CoinLab's ToS. Is there some way in which users whom do not wish to be clients of CoinLab, and also no longer your client could have all account information and history removed from your systems? You can opt to have your account deleted. Once deletion request is made, nominative data is kept for another 30 days before being freed. No nominative data is kept with MtGox in this case, but some other data may stay around: deposits and withdrawal data is kept at least 15 years by our bank (we only keep transaction numbers on a long term), history data is kept 7 years by MtGox (required by law), and trades you caused are kept forever (it's part of the public data feed and likely replicated over many many people). |
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if they are bringing over accounts automatically, i am presuming this will include the account history.
i wonder how many people will be filing amended tax returns as a result.
For your account to be brought over to CoinLab, you'll first need to accept CoinLab's ToS. |
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Even just offering the option to assign one pre-determined bitcoin address would provide an equivalent level of security, even if you did no PGP automation whatsoever. The pre-determined bitcoin address could either be a) withdrawn to directly, or b) for those who know how to sign messages, it could be used to sign a message that permits withdrawal to some other address. All of this could be evaluated in any environment already accustomed to working with bitcoin keypairs.
We could easily add the "limit to one bitcoin address" thing, but there is a problem with the bitcoin message signature process that makes it difficult to implement (last time I checked the bitcoin message signature uses a different way of signing compared to transactions to make shorter signatures, but it's been an issue). |
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On the subject of Yubikeys, why doesn't MtGox allow plain Yubikeys to be registered with their service?
Mostly a security reason. Anyone could create a bitcoin-related site that claims to accept yubikeys and actually log the used codes to try these later on other related websites. It would also make us dependend on Yubico's server, making these an even greater target than they already are. Yubikey allows security by decentralization, allowing each operator to run their own auth servers. We will still eventually allow people who understand the risks to add their yubikey on MtGox eventually, but this has lower priority. If MtGox could make it so that you could add your PGP public key and then configure your account such that bitcoin withdrawals require PGP signature of a pre-generated message that contained the destination bitcoin address, MtGox would have undisputable conclusive proof in the event of a disagreement as to whether a withdrawal was authorized.
We considered this, but the lack of proper PGP lib (the only few libs around will try to create stuff in $HOME and doesn't allow us to store/provide the public keys easily) or appropriate technical documentation on the signature format (it mostly says "read the source") forced us to delay this. |
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As we could see thanks to this ticket number, the hacker gained access to the account on first try (ie. already had the correct password on hand). We also confirmed there was no Yubikey linked to this account nor was one ever registered. * Yes I did have a Yubikey and *thought* I registered it
I wonder if JMcGrath is not talking about a Yubikey he bought himself separately, in which case there is no way to "link it" to a MtGox account (only Yubikeys delivered by MtGox work on MtGox). Either way there was no order for a MtGox Yubikey on the account's history. I would rather suspect phishing or hacked computer (key logger/etc). As usual, having a Yubikey or TOTP device linked to the account and enabled would have helped a lot. |
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Can you create a support ticket with your account login details and post the ticket number here ?
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Both entries are actually the same trade, as seen from different currencies. This happens when an order hits an open order in another currency. Those trades have the "mixed_currency" flag set.
You can use the "primary" field to differentiate them.
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