...
I don't follow what you're saying.
If the hunger games argument is that proof of stake causes centralization of power,
how do you "minus that out" while still keeping proof of stake?
The '1%' have 51% of the stake. The 99% with 49% of the stake decide they don't like being ruled and fork the client. Their 49% becomes 100% in the forked platform. The 1% are left with nothing of value. The solution to the Hunger Games is getting a boyfriend that is willing to die for your love. I mean seriously, what kind of attack is this? 51% attacks in PoS will normally be anonymous double spends. They will not tell you that they have 51%. The scenario is rather simple. A few with majority vote have power to freeze accounts at will, as only they decide which transactions get into the blockchain and which don't. It means they can write laws now and have instruments in their hands to enforce it. Your account can be permanently or temporary frozen if you disobey an arbitrary law that the few in power came up with (hunger games situation). PoS is not suitable for global money system, no need to switch from PoW. |
|
|
|
I think people are forgetting one simple fact about PoS, it saturates. It means that even if all people on the planet are given equal amount of coins in a PoS system, the competition will make some of them richer and others poorer. At some point a group of wealthiest stakeholders will maintain the majority vote in the system. No one can outrun their blockchain. That's where Snake awaits them with the offer they can't refuse. The wealthiest few will be approached individually with a choice - rule with us or be ruled over. Thus inner circle of control is completed and the system becomes a private enterprise. That's when zoo cages are closed and the hunger games can begin. People are brainwashed enough to not see the cage for all the food. I mean it's not called Proof of Snake for no reason. PoW stays in PoWer  Very compelling argument. Can we end the thread now? Sure. Honey BTCadger eats $nakes for breakfast, people seem to forget: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg |
|
|
|
I think people are forgetting one simple fact about PoS, it saturates. It means that even if all people on the planet are given equal amount of coins in a PoS system, the competition will make some of them richer and others poorer. At some point a group of wealthiest stakeholders will maintain the majority vote in the system. No one can outrun their blockchain. That's where Snake awaits them with the offer they can't refuse. The wealthiest few will be approached individually with a choice - rule with us or be ruled over. Thus inner circle of control is completed and the system becomes a private enterprise. That's when zoo cages are closed and the hunger games can begin. People are brainwashed enough to not see the cage for all the food. I mean it's not called Proof of Snake for no reason. PoW stays in PoWer |
|
|
|
Allow me to introduce a new form of decentralized currency - JoyCoin! Mining: Everyone can mine JoyCoin everywhere they are by doing things that bring them joy! Spending: You can share your JoyCoins with others and teach them that they can mine it too! Demurrage: Your joy-wealth decreases if you are not following your joy, thus hoarding is prevented! Decentralization: There is no single central authority to define joy, everyone will have to figure it out on their own. System integrity: Your joy-wealth is destroyed if you prevent others from generating or sharing joy. There is no premine, the amount is unlimited and infinitely divisible. Let the mining commence now! |
|
|
|
The welfare state enables the illuminati to control and manipulate the people
Bitcoin will illuminate illuminati all the way to the bank, central bank that is |
|
|
|
That's right. And to state it further, the only way a government or state works fairly and equitably is when it is written down. This way everyone can look to see if what is being done compares with what is written. The state is a state of mind. In your body, the government is written down in your genetic code. Your immune system attempts to maintain correct operation in the state of your body.  I like it! Then blockchain becomes our DNA. Every peer has a full copy of the whole, that's what "created in the image of God" actually means! Bitcoin is then a reflection of holographic nature of existence. Proof of World system, anyone? My signature only supports the point |
|
|
|
It always puzzled me, that even though each half of the yin-yang symbol contained most of its own color, it also contained the opposite color in its purest form (circle). Think of it what you like |
|
|
|
I do enjoy the effort put into creative writing by the anti bulltard cohort here, it's all rather droll.
Me too... As Neo would have put it: "Hmm... upgrades!" |
|
|
|
We study sane people here, they are funny! Bring them on  |
|
|
|
... Like with gravity. A state is a dynamical essence in a society ...
Great analogy! Something tells me that we talked about it some years ago... Maybe just a coincidence As it is unavoidable, better be on the extortion side, no ?
The Infinity will make sure that we will all play on each side eventually. But there is a way out. With the fuel as pure and clean as Bitcoin the Star of Humanity has a good chance to go Supernova. That's when people move to live among the stars with all the good stuff that we will have produced up to that point and there is no amount of government that can hold us back. That's where we are headed, resistance is futile. |
|
|
|
If someone comes up with a coin standing on the following three pillars: Proof of Existence Proof of Economy Proof of Education It will be PoEtry to my ears, until then PoW will stay in PoWer |
|
|
|
Mining...
So you're saying this is an arms race and I need to get myself a shotgun and a hacksaw because this is serious business? This is war for freedom, son! Things are a bit rough here before they settle. You might do it on your own, or join a star alliance  |
|
|
|
...
for instance if i wanted to buy 200k coins today. i would cause coinbase's price to go from $360~ all the way above $1000. meaning if i had lets say $72million, you would think that equates to 200k coins at $360.. but no,,, as soon as i start buying some the price rises thus by the time i have bought 2000 coins the price could be in the $400 price range. by the time i get to 4000 coins it could be in the $500 price range.. and thus with 196k coins to go, its becoming more and more expensive to just buy the amount of coins i like.
however by mining them i can grab coins and never need to touch an exchange, thus getting closer to the 200k coin figure i want, than i would have simply buying them.
That's very good point, franky! This separates PoW from other systems, where all money are assigned to a group of participants and the most of it might simply be "not for sale". Mining allows to get as much of it as there is still under the digital crust and after that still get what is available in the flow of transactions. |
|
|
|
PoS isn't horrible but the cost to produce coins vs PoW coins is a lot less so the price for PoS coins will always be much much lower.
You can't get something for nothing forever.
I agree with this general observation for what is going on right now. It very accurately explains why Bitcoin is worth so much per coin and every single PoS coin is worth very little. But in the long game, I think the cost of maintaining the PoW system (because it requires so much work) will start to tax the system (especially when the subsidies expire). Where as with a different proof-of-x system in the long game, it will be cheaper to maintain the system, thus making the coins ultimately more valuable. Both provide essentially the same utility, but one has hire taxes. This of course would assume that all things being equal. When in fact they are not. Right now Bitcoin has a huge first mover advantage and a better marketing advantage. Those alone might make it very difficult to disrupt even if a different platform is technically superior. When you say "tax the system" you mean the energy supply or what? Why can't miners improve efficiency to near perfect so the current hashrate can run on a car battery? What spinoff benefits would emerge? By "tax" the system, I mean just that. The miners are charging taxes on transactions. Right now that tax is $0.04. There are about 100,000 transactions per day give or take. That is going to mean that about $4000 in fees are being paid to miners by people wanting to have transactions processed. Yet, the miners are getting paid $1,300,000 a day. So who is paying for the rest of those miners to run? They are regularly buying new hardware and electricity. Where does that money come from? It comes from the rest of the system getting taxed (existing bitcoin holders getting devalued). So when I am talking about the system being taxed, I am talking about all the money that it takes to buy new hardware, maintain it, and power it with electricity. It is taking a ton of work to maintain the Bitcoin blockchain. That money that those miners are using to pay for electricity and hardware doesn't just magically appear. Maybe the miners are not cashing in the whole $1.3 million a day, but I am guessing we can safely assume they are cashing out more than a million a day. That is a million dollar tax (minus $4000) a day to keep the system a float. If they don't get their million dollars, the whole thing falls apart. Now, to your question of "if" miners were able to mysteriously come up with hardware at a cost of near $0 and run it for a cost of near $0, then yes, there would be virtually no tax at all on the system and very small fees would cover the cost of the miners. In that case the Bitcoin blockchain could be managed and maintained for very cheap. I am guessing that would be a great thing not just for Bitcoin, but for the whole world. But if you want to talk about a system where the maintainers of the blockchain are having very little expenses for electricity and very little expenses for hardware to run nodes, then we should talk about some of the current PoS systems, not a hypothetical Bitcoin blockchain of a possible future. For instance many platforms like NXT and NEM have shown that their nodes can be run off of a $50 Raspi B+. Those in turn can be outfitted to be solar powered (though at that point it is probably just cheaper to pay for the minimum amount of electricity). You seem to be implying, that there is a way to achieve security without spending any energy/money on it. It's like going to Russia and China and saying - hey guys all your expenses on army and firearms are futile and not sustainable. It's just cheaper to give it all up already and get your orders from Washington for free |
|
|
|
PoS isn't horrible but the cost to produce coins vs PoW coins is a lot less so the price for PoS coins will always be much much lower.
You can't get something for nothing forever.
I agree with this general observation for what is going on right now. It very accurately explains why Bitcoin is worth so much per coin and every single PoS coin is worth very little. But in the long game, I think the cost of maintaining the PoW system (because it requires so much work) will start to tax the system (especially when the subsidies expire). Where as with a different proof-of-x system in the long game, it will be cheaper to maintain the system, thus making the coins ultimately more valuable. Both provide essentially the same utility, but one has hire taxes. This of course would assume that all things being equal. When in fact they are not. Right now Bitcoin has a huge first mover advantage and a better marketing advantage. Those alone might make it very difficult to disrupt even if a different platform is technically superior. I'm cross-posting again. This place is addictive Mining allows players to stay independent by funding their own security operations. It is similar to how large geo-political players fund armies to protect their share of land. Do you think their expenses are justified? |
|
|
|
|
Many people are still caught in their investment/return/profit loops.
They simply can't see beyond that, while they are at it.
The concept of mining in the long run is very simple.
It is an arms race for control of a first-of-a-kind global money system on the planet.
Large geo-political players will be competing with advances in technology and resources to dominate the mining space in the future. Think of it as expenses on army to protect your share of land. You don't normally get returns on investment in security, you get security as the end product.
EDIT:
Currently mining can be compared to hunting/fishing. Some people prefer to buy their food in stores, others like to spend their time and resources to find food on their own, while also mastering their skills. The food found in the wild, while more expensive, is often healthier than that in the stores, as it is free from taint of various E-additives. Sometimes it's not the goal of the game that is so precious but the game itself. You will see that in sports (and life).
|
|
|
|
PoS is suitable for shares in the company. It is also compatible with the idea that many PoS systems need to compete between each other to stay robust, while PoW allows competition within the system.
We already have a money system in place owned by snake err... stakeholders, you know how it turned out. We are not yet at the hunger games scenario, but that's where any unchallenged PoS system is eventually headed.
Plus what cbeast said about cloning and marketing.
why are you just cross posting this across different PoS v PoW style threads? in the hope to rise another debate out of someone with you stupid "fit for company shares" "pos leads to hunger games" argument? quit trolling... My goal is to find truth and help others see it as well. I'm interested in the long term evolution for each model, that's why I advocate for continued competition in this space instead of turning one system into another. My concerns about PoI still haven't been answered. My point is not to harm other systems, but simply point out some of their deficiencies that might lead to serious consequences in the future. This allows to better see the problem and take actions to address it. Not everybody likes trolling, but sometimes it brings nice dynamic to the conversation. In this regard, I will say that PoI might turn quite PoIsonous if not implemented well, no offense With that said, I feel that I have saturated the channel enough, so I will take some rest and let others compete with their ideas. Good luck and have fun! PS: I am defending Bitcoin on Bitcoin's own turf, so it is other players calling it proof-of-waste that are trolls here. What you put out is what you get back. Also see this thread to understand why PoW is the way it is: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=855520 |
|
|
|
|
PoS is suitable for shares in the company. It is also compatible with the idea that many PoS systems need to compete between each other to stay robust, while PoW allows competition within the system.
We already have a money system in place owned by snake err... stakeholders, you know how it turned out. We are not yet at the hunger games scenario, but that's where any unchallenged PoS system is eventually headed.
Plus what cbeast said about cloning and marketing.
|
|
|
|
|
Show Posts
