No, all previous open source bots don't work now. The last working public bot is closed source and for Windows only.

After the last patch came out (that uses pathfinding to eliminate easy fall-through levels) map filters became almost useless so I didn't even bother with them too much. The best filter now is just to try to actually solve the level. At least for bots. They enumerate tens or hundreds of levels per second and just try to solve them.

But I still believe that humans can filter maps much better than bots. Humans can look at the map and almost immediatelly see some good ways to solve it. For example, they can see some small hole and quickly decide if it would be possible to squeeze through it or not (I don't mean that they simply measure the size of that hole, but that they take into account many other parameters such as if there is enough space around that hole, possible trajectories to enter that hole and so on).

The problem is that they can't then ride the bike along that choosen trajectory as quickly as bots can. It would be interesting if humans could draw the rough trajectory (with desired bike orientations) or just somehow lead the bike with the mouse and the rest of the work was up to the bot. This hybrid cound possibly outperform even current bots.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=591724.msg12684680#msg12684680

There is absolutelly no difference between your solution and mine in this particular aspect (if I understand your solution correctly). If you just divide 10 moto from each block among all free solutions in last 10 blocks you will get almost the same result.


In fact, what we are trying to do is to remove any of this "10 blocks" limits.

To stop that kind of attack we can just set the limit of free levels per block to some small amount (5 for example). Then adjustment of the target time will quickly decrease this amount to 1 free level per block on average.

Also, I think there is no way to allow 60 sec maps for humans anyway. Bots are incredibly good at solving 60 sec levels. In fact, human levels should have target time smaller than real blockchain levels.

It would also be very interesting if you try to solve the level with the same target time as you did before (27 sec) but without force restarts and compare how much easier it was. You can start the level and then unplug your internet connection to disable restarts (you will not get any reward of course).

Ok, I'm happy now. We can leave that hash table behind and proceed with 24h solution.


Wow that was entertaining.

Unfortunatelly, target time would be much more severe if there were 1000 bot miners instead of 10.

P.S. You mined 12 blocks in half an hour on 08.04.2015, did you mine them with public bot?

No we can't.

If there is such level of misunderstanding between us we can't go further.

That hash table will be constructed upon wallet synchronization for PERSONAL use only. It will be just an auxiliary data structure just for searching for duplicates. Nothing more. It will not be a part of a blockchain. It will use random salt and nobody will ever show this table to anyone else.

Yes this is inconvinient and I'm not suggesting to use it in moto but I don't understand why you keep arguing that it is impossible in principle.

Oh, that's hopeless. You even don't want to try to understand.

I'm not talking about salt and hash that are used to generate levels.

I'm talking about salt and hash used for hash table itself.

Hash tables use hash functions to guarantee uniformity. That is why they called "hash tables" and not simply "tables". The fact that you want to store hashes in it doesn't automatically transform table to hash table if it does not calculate hashes of that hashes.

Every user will have different hash table. Miner will be able to spoil only his own hash table.

Ok?

Try 37.153.97.65:13107


I could check this article to ensure that it doesn't contain any serious mistakes about botting. But I'm not a native speaker and also do not know as much as HMC about target time calculation, anti-warp feature and the history of MOTO...

HMC, I've just reread your previous posts.

It seems that you completely forgot how hash table works.

Sorry, I thought you just wanted to play funny games with my brain.

Ok, if you really don't understand: all wallets will use some strong cryptographic hash to determine the index of an entry of that table. They will hash the item along with some big random salt (unique for each wallet).

They will NOT use first bits of plain item data as an entry index.

Miner will NOT be able to select specific levels for degeneracy attack cause he will in fact not know what hash function each node use for that table.

The only problem is that those hash tables will not be interchangable between different wallets. Is that a problem?

Anyway, limited time (24 hours) solution will be simpler and enough and I'm absolutely not insisting on using that hash table.

So you want to use hash table without calculating hashes at all? Of course every node will have different random salt. You can attack only if you know it (And you will be able to attack only this particular node, it can detect it easily and change the salt, but if someone have access to other's moto folder wouldn't it be more sane to steal the wallet instead of this almost useless salt).


You can tell controversial things about something that nobobody can really prove. But it is mindless to do such thing in this particular case when everybody can go to wikipedia and see that O(1). If you was able to write your bot and make patches for MOTO you obviously know how to program and I'm pretty sure that you are aware of all basic algorithms.

But first you tell us that you don't see any solution at all except checking every block. Then you tell us that there are in fact some algorithms that can be used but they will require Log(n) time.

If you are uncomfortable with that hash table or if you think that it is unnecessary waste of HDD you can simply tell us that. There is no need to invent sophisticated logical constructions with purposely embedded flaws. This flawed conversation can lasts forever. I don't like when someone tries to manipulate me that way.

Just forget about that hash table, 24 hours would be pretty enough for human to solve the level. Just check last 1440 blocks.

Where did you get that Log? You don't want to rebuild it completely and just want to make some kind of a tree? Or are you talking about collisions? Anyway you log is naturally limited by hash size so I don't see any problem.

Just rebuild it every few years and it will always give you O(1). There is no problem at all.

And your radix will have constant search time too (beware of 10 ms seek time if you want to use tree on HDD).

So time of verification will always be limited.

What is the problem? Simple hash table is not enough for this? If you affraid that it will not fit in RAM you can contruct it in some file.


LOL So increased or switched-off production will not convince you?

Ok, I will just refine this scheme slightly:

If there are any free solutions, miner can include them and get small fixed fee from each level along with his half of total reward for solving the block. The second half of the block reward will always be divided among all free solutions in last 20 blocks (If there is no free solutions in previous 20 blocks, miner could be required to add at least one in his new block).

In some cases (if previous blocks contain several free levels maked by this bot) he can decide to not include anything. But in general, previous 20 block will not contain any of his free levels, so he will just loose fees.

Now about why bots will not mine free levels (they actually will of course).

There are multiple cases, if we allow to use outdated real solutions as free solutions we will get some complicated system. I think it will work, but it's somewhat hard to analyze.

If we completely separate real and free levels, then bots will simply distribute their hash power between real and free levels to maximize the reward.

The equilibrium will be achieved (maybe I'm wrong) when bots real levels hash power will be equal to the sum of bots free levels hash power and humans free levels hash power (if we assume that humans can't mine real blocks and that target time will be adjusted to maintain one free level per block).

If accidentially human hash power will become greater than total bot hash power, there will be no reason for bots to mine free levels at all (but I will be surprised if this happens).

Of course bot can precompute tons of free levels and hold them but what's the point? He would get more reward if he just use that power to compute real levels. Moreover, target time can change and his levels can become useless. And they also can not be used to perform an attack.

I didn't think too much about all of this but I don't see any serious flaw that we cannot overcome somehow (at first sight).

Of course, it's just a draft and needs to be checked and corrected but I still think that we must give humans unlimited time somehow.



Ok, I don't want to give you my current bot (and if I would how could you be sure that I gave you really the best one I have?). I can help you to measure anything you want by varying my production. Tell me what you want me to do.

But anyway what's the point? I possibly can run it on 1 or 2 or 20 PCs. Or maybe I don't need to pay for electricity or have access to a huge supercomputer for free. How can you be sure that someone doesn't have 100X better bot right now and just waiting for convenient moment to start it.

So I can help you to measure what you want but you will never be sure that this measurements is correct.

The only measurement that can be relatively trusted is if there would be 100 more miners and they would grab 90% of moto and I would not be able to do anything for weeks. It that case you could possibly assume something about my bot power.


So one of them can easily rent 10X more hash power and get 51% at least for a short period of time?


I can explain. I spent a lot of time making this bot, then spent time and electricity to mine moto, I also have greate amount of moto right now. What is the reason for me to do anything bad to moto now? Of course if there would be a chance to get 1000000$ by performing something like that I would understand your concern.

On the other hand we would have 4 guys that didn't invest any resources into making bot, they didn't do anything except clicking the button to download it. They have nothing to loose. Any of them can just ask 3 friends or just use some additional PCs and make doublespend just for fun.

If there was 100 miners, one of them would have to find 100-200 PCs to run the bot. This would be much more problematic for him of course.


It's just some kind of black-and-white thinking.

Just answer this simple question:

Do you really believe that all guys who accidentially discovered this coin and decided to try to mine moto (I don't talk about you), so do you believe that they then made full research about how many miners there are, how many moto each miner get (they would have to put huge efforts to get this information from the blockchain), how exactly moto works and so on.

Do you believe that they really do all of this, and exactly the result of this research is the TRUE reason why they refuse to mine.

I can understand your concerns about distribution and so on, but I don't think that this is the reason that we have too few miners.

Maybe now, after you wrote about it on this forum it became a reason, but why they didn't mine before?

And I can tell you what I think the reason is:

The lack of good website where they can read information about moto, lack of the block explorer, lack of mining calculator, instructions and direct link to the bot. And, of course, low price and only one exchange.

Also, I think that everybody who tries to use moto, try to mine it by hand first, and those everlasting restarts prevent them from having fun. If they could mine without restarts, maybe then they would try to mine with bot, or just tell their friends about this cool game and they would start to mine too (manually first, and then with bot).

So, let's not overthink too much.

I can try to help you make those "measurements" somehow but don't forget about other ways to cure moto. I'm talking about good website with docs and instructions etc. And of course about eliminating level restarts.

You keep saying very strange things.

You ask me in every message to give you my current bot for testing to verify that it is really only 20 times better than public bot.

Will you ask every future bot miner to verify their bots capabilities? Will you ask every other public bot miner to give you his PC to verify that they are not 10X better than other's? Why couldn't I give you less productive bot for verification?

You tell me that we just can not distribute the hash rate until I release my current bot.


And simultaneosly you tell me that public bot "is nowhere near as capable" as YOUR bot which I presume you had all this time.

Why didn't you give YOUR bot to everybody. Wouldn't it help to distribute hash rate? Instead you have disappeared for almost a year without any notice.


All this is complete nonsense. My bot is ONLY 20X better than public. 20 mining people could overproduce me. Normal coins have thousands of miners. They wouldn't even notice my 20X more powerful bot.

Anyone who wants to try public bot can sell their MOTO immidiately if they affraid that network is insecure. And decide for their own is this profitable or not. In fact we have some amount of public bot miners (Can they write something?) We just need more of them.


Is there anyone who tried mining with public bot and decided that it is unprofitable?


I keep telling you that if I release my bot right now it would be far more dangerous. If people so inactively mine with public bot, we can expect that there will be very few miners mining with my bot too. And the risk that one of them will try to perform 51% attack will be much higher. Someone have already tried to perform 51% manually when there was no bots in september.


If you think that moto itself is OK now all you need is to increase public bot miners count. You tell me that they do not mine because it is unprofitable?

I want to hear anyone who tried to mine with public bot and came to conclusion that it is unprofitable. Besides, are you sure that it is profitable for me? And maybe people could start to mine even if it is unprofitable now (which I believe is not true) just to distribute hash rate and help moto become profitable?



I have been mining from january and mine around 60-90% depending on competing public bot count. This gives 5832000, more than 4,5 million I  have already sold (I told you that I sell). Even if we imagine that I mined 100% moto in that period and didn't sell anything where is 8 million moto that was mined from may to december? Why are they not on c-cex?
400k MOTO is even less than 450k developers premine + first human mined 800k moto. (Just some fun facts).

Again, download the public bot, launch it and you will get 1-2% of moto supply. Then convince 50 other people to do the same and you all together will have more than 50%. (You will probably outperform me and all current public bot miners). All we need is just more miners.

BTW Can anyone who mine with public bot give us some numbers how much do you mine per month and so on?


Why would they do that if they can find "real" levels more easily (target time for real levels will obviously be higher). Bots do not need time to study level, they will switch to the next level immediately. If there is no free level to include, bot will just make block without free level (and will not get small fee which we can offer for including it)


What do you mean? Level will be generated for specific receiving address. How can you steal it?


Why would it mine "free" level if it is easier to switch to "real" level immidiatelly? On "free" level bot would have to compete both bots and humans, and when mining "real" level only other bots (I believe humans can not solve 15 sec target time level in less than a minute). Bots enumerate hundreds of levels per minute with some probability of solving any of them. Humans needs time to actually solve the level so they are not competitive in solving "real" levels and bots will have less competition when solving real levels.


Half of the reward will be given to secure the chain and other half to make moto human mineable and therefore much more popular.


That is absolutely not enough. Did you ever try to play? Do you really think that one extra minute will change something? With my scheme humans can play half of an hour, explore the level, study it and then finally complete it and get their reward (and it is 100% guaranteed).



I will clarify this even more. There Possibly was a Group of whales who bought big part of moto. I speaked with one of them and he asked me if I want to cooperate with them and try to popularize moto and continue developing. I'm not even sure that he really got that moto. And my amout of moto is not too big. I could definitely just buy it on c-cex.

Hi guys.

I'm so called "bot operator".

My bot is only 20X better than current public bot.

This:


is not correct. I asked HunterMinerCrafter to confirm that I didn't tell him that.


My proposal to HMC was this:

We can keep proof-of-play algorithm for securing the blockchain, but allow everybody to add special transactions with any level solution into blocks (lets call them "free levels").

This will completely eliminate annoying level restarts. Players will be able to play one level for hours (target time will still be low, but it will be much more interesting).

Target time for blockchain and for free levels would be calculated separately. Target time for special transactions would obviosly be lower than for blockchain levels, so bots will always switch to the next level (bots do not need time to explore the level, they do it in fraction of seconds, so there is no sense for bots to try to solve outdated level with decreased target time).

But human players will be able to continue solving one level for unlimited amount of time (only target time will be altered eventually during playing). Humans need time to study the level and unlimited time will actually make humans and bots equal.


So, bots will secure the blockchain and people will have fun without level restarts. And there will be equal reward for block solution and for free level solution and target time for free level solutions will be calculated to allow only one free solution per block on average.

This is really great and I do not understand why HunterMinerCrafter do not admit this. And there is almost no security loss. But much more fun.


I want to ask your opinion about this. If more people find this solution attractive, I think HMC will make it.


And yes, I really think that we should promote moto, move to other exchanges and so on. I made a good bot and didn't get any profit from it yet (unlike previous bot owners). And the only thing HMC wants to do is to fine-tune his precious work function and write huge chuck of text about theoretical aspects of hashes and so on (no offense)


I proposed real solution to make moto more popular and I think HMC will not refuse to make it if we ask him.