 Show Posts
|
|
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 »
|
But anyway I'd personally stake out the postion that you can safely call bitcoins property...
You can call anything property, the trick is getting enough people to agree. That's why I brought up intellectual property. IP only 'exists' as property because everyone concerned agrees it is rather then any physical existance of the property. I think simply calling bitcoins property is the easier leap then trying to extend those 'property rights' into other realms of law. For example the bitcoin theft debate. I think domain names can provide a good parallel in this example and have been found to be property in several cases. Have a look at this... https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=807966I'm about half way through... but I'm not sure what you're stabbing at? He seems to be just making the argument that virtual property need laws to protect them? I'll have to finish it later though. I think it really breaks down about how far you simply want to take the 'property' argument. Are bitcoins property in the eyes of webster's? Yes Are bitcoins property in the eyes of the law? I'd say in many cases yes. Are bitcoins property treated the same way your car is? Ok now you're going to run into trouble. This is where the author of the paper seems to want to take things. |
|
|
|
But anyway I'd personally stake out the postion that you can safely call bitcoins property...
You can call anything property, the trick is getting enough people to agree. That's why I brought up intellectual property. IP only 'exists' as property because everyone concerned agrees it is rather then any physical existance of the property. I think simply calling bitcoins property is the easier leap then trying to extend those 'property rights' into other realms of law. For example the bitcoin theft debate. I think domain names can provide a good parallel in this example and have been found to be property in several cases. |
|
|
|
|
I'm trying to catch up on the argument... but seem to be a bit lost.
Why is relevant how many people can 'own' a bitcoin in the determination if is or isn't property?
But anyway I'd personally stake out the postion that you can safely call bitcoins property...
I mean we have for example have intellectual property which exists only in theory because it is reconized by the some jurisdiction as being 'property'
|
|
|
|
No big secret, eBay. Sunelec.com also has good prices. http://search.ebay.com/?sass=fred480v&ht=-1Now there are some 275 watt panels for $.75/watt plus shipping, which seems to be the same no matter how many watts you buy, around $250 IIRC. So 2000w delivered for around $1750, 10,000w for $7750. Which brand are you using? I'd worry about the quality when something is suppose to last 25 years  I just saw this company on CNBC which sells a stove that can charge up iphones and stuff, looks pretty experimental so far but I thought it looked interesting, Jim Cramer was all giddy about it lmao, don't like the guy very much but he does get it right occasionally for some reason. http://biolitestove.com/That's actually pretty cute. But looks like it can supply only 2 watts.... which really is even less then usb's spec of 500ma. So neat gimmick but nothing terribly amazing. |
|
|
|
I like your new examples.
A) If someone steals paintings or baseball cards, they most certainly will be charged with theft! Same with Bitcoins... it is something of value stolen, so they will be charged with theft! I just think test answers is a bad example.
B) Fair enough, I did not realize this.
paintings and baseball cards were examples were used to illustrate something that has value but is not specifically a value carrying object... like a test. If you want better examples of bitcoin 'theft' I can make up plenty. How about I logged into your computer and download your music collection. Not theft? I think most can agree with that. What if I delete them after downloading them? Hmmm....? B)That's always been my point. 'Stealing' bitcoins is a crime, but it's not theft. It just seems most people don't seem to want to have a resonable discussion about the law and instead just want to keep shouting (in my best southpark imitation) 'THEY TOOK OUR JOBS BITCOINS' Papers are what you call "laws".
Finding something unowned is an acceptable and ethical way to obtain property. The question is only how to determine whether something is unowned. That is not a question to be resolved by looking up opinions written on holy papers, but rather by reasoning from principle and material fact.
Which is why we in fact have courts and 'holy papers' as your views of reasoning and principle is likely to be quite removed from that of most peoples. |
|
|
|
Rudd-O is the nutty one.
Congratulations! With that gratuitous insult, you've earned yourself a speedy trip to my ignore list. I recommend everyone else ignore reyals too (ignore link below his nickname). Men who initiate insults do so because they can't reason. Men who can't reason aren't worth your time. Oh no I won't get to hear responses about magic paper, men in blue costumes, and the Byzantine council However will I go on. And yet... I'm the one who can't reason??? A) Test answers have value, sure. But that isn't their normal usage, whereas the normal usage for Bitcoin is as a vehicle of value. When someone thinks of test answers, they don't think of a way to make monetary transactions with other people.
B) If someone changed the name at the top of my test, and I wasn't able to set the record straight with the professor, I'd sue whoever changed it for everything I could. I'd sue someone who stole my Bitcoins too. So, what's your point?
What does normal usage have to do with anything? A)Paintings normal usage is to be looked at... does that some how negate their value?  Baseball cards... ETC B)Because a lawsuit != being charged with theft. Which is the point I've been making since the start. |
|
|
|
|
If it came out today that every blu-ray of the dark knight had a secret file of child pornography but that it could only be accessed with a special program would everyone who bought said blu-ray suddenly be open to arrest?
No... the real question is that if after you found out there was possible illegal material in the block chain you still continued to distribute it...
But if it's not readily apparent to the user that the block chain is indeed 'illegal' then it would be hard to prove that they did so willingly.
|
|
|
|
Breaking a contract may not be a crime, but you can still certainly be sued for it. No you cannot. All contracts have to made in the legal tender of the land to be recognised by the court of the land. If you cannot pay your taxes in it, it's not legal tender. There are plenty of contracts that do not involve money at all. Agreed. "Legal tender" is a red herring. Contracts -- defensible in courts oflaw -- may be entered into by any two or more people regarding promises of performance that do not need legal tender. I don't know where these armchair lawyers appear, but they sure as fuck have no idea what the contents of their holy pieces of paper actually say. Thank you two for bring up something posted over a month ago by someone that already admitted he's wrong. I don't know where these armchair commenters appear, but they sure as fuck have no idea what the contents of this thread actually says. Theft deprives someone use of the thing. Copying test scores or an mp3 file doesn't deprive the rightful owner use of it, thus, it is not theft. Spending someone else's bitcoins does deprive them use of it, thus it is theft.
You should try reading as well ....
A)Tests do have a value. 5 seconds of google finds a story of people paying 1500-2500 to cheat at the SAT.
B)It's not a perfect example but I was just trying to illustrate the dangerous of 'theft of information'
How about if you change the names on their test? Now you've both deprived them of their test and taken something of value. Happy?
(Not sure how that would be prosecuted though... Probably fraud)
|
|
|
|
posted this in the newby section earlier, reposting here now that I have been given access. I am very new to mining, and have been at it less than a week. This was the first block I have ever found. I decided to become involved in Bitcoins, because I feel that it could be the answer to all the evils of government controlled currency. This isn't a "get rich quick scheme" for me. I believe that what we are doing can change the world. I am incredibly honored to be a part of Crypto-Currency history. Thanks to Slush's pool for letting me join, if any new miners are out there looking for a great pool https://mining.bitcoin.cz/ In case this post somehow goes down in history, I just want to say.... FUCK The Federal Reserve System. Donations gladly accepted at : 17wnLRDGD9xSzxBTte8poWJzqXqkzr7Q9G Dude, with that kind of luck you should buy just one Powerball ticket. Congrats! Meh it's only like 1 in 100,000 with a single gpu  |
|
|
|
In the matter of "what do the magical.papers say about theft and bitcoin", precedent is not necessary to prove that stealing bitcoin is forbidden by the magical papers -- showing a statute will do. Someone already showed a statute pertinent to the matter so I consider this case proven and closed.
Really? Who? I've provide the only statue that might cover it; New Jersey's definition that includes information, data... but there have been no court rulings on what that means. I mean if I look at your test in school technically I've stolen your answers... IE your information or data. Do we really want that to be handled as theft? So I'd want to see some rulings before one can really point to New Jersey and say 'AH HA!' and really that still leaves quite a few other states which don't have such specific protections in their laws. Test scores don't have value, and it doesn't cost the person anything if you look. That's a bad example compared to Bitcoin, which does have value and does cost the person something if you steal. A)Tests do have a value. 5 seconds of google finds a story of people paying 1500-2500 to cheat at the SAT. B)It's not a perfect example but I was just trying to illustrate the dangerous of 'theft of information' How about if you change the names on their test? Now you've both deprived them of their test and taken something of value. Happy? (Not sure how that would be prosecuted though... Probably fraud) |
|
|
|
yeah, I use HideMyAss. it's pretty good. fast, lots of servers, very reasonable cost.
What makes you trust HideMyAss over your ISP? Funnier name? If you really don't want people seeing your traffic (but want something faster then TOR) rent a server somewhere and do an SSH tunnel or VPN of choice. I bounce my traffic off an Amazon EC2 when I'm on a hostile network... half the time it can actually speed my traffic up with their ridiculously large pipes. |
|
|
|
In the matter of "what do the magical.papers say about theft and bitcoin", precedent is not necessary to prove that stealing bitcoin is forbidden by the magical papers -- showing a statute will do. Someone already showed a statute pertinent to the matter so I consider this case proven and closed.
Really? Who? I've provide the only statue that might cover it; New Jersey's definition that includes information, data... but there have been no court rulings on what that means. I mean if I look at your test in school technically I've stolen your answers... IE your information or data. Do we really want that to be handled as theft? So I'd want to see some rulings before one can really point to New Jersey and say 'AH HA!' and really that still leaves quite a few other states which don't have such specific protections in their laws. |
|
|
|
I've had sub 2 thousand watts orders of panels delivered to my house for under $1/watt, anybody who thinks they are going to build them cheaper than that is insane. You can get solar laminates for $.64/watt right now and I've seen $.50/w in the past, which supposedly can be used without a frame. Or frame them, and still come out ahead of DIY panels
And where are you ordering these? Please, do share. Yah I'd be interested to know as well... I got mine for a bit under $2/watt and I've seen down to about $1.5/watt retail but sub $1 delivered? I'd probably build out some capacity if I could get some of those |
|
|
|
Of course there are laws to protect bitcoins. Just not theft laws. Repeating a falsehood does not make it true. Not even if you repeat it additional times. It just looks silly. Why is it required of me to prove that something doesn't exist? I have provided several examples of why such laws would be difficult to implement under existing statues. But your camp has provided no laws that would protect digital items nor has it been able to point to a single case of prosecution of such a type of theft. As far as I'm concerned the ball is squarely in your court. 'Show me the precedent' |
|
|
|
|
Don't trust virus scanners.
In case of doubt run it in a VM. (A real one... not java's)
|
|
|
|
Feel free to ridicule the OP, but don't be such loudmouths about an illness you know nothing about. kthx.
You might want to get more familiar with RF signals, Desolator. "Humans are not made out of metal" is the poorest argument.
Why would he or anyone else need to get more familiar with RF signals when 99% of all PhDs and MDs are already in agreement on this issue? And really I don't care how many resistors and capacitors you try to put on your power supply... how exactly do you purpose to stop the 60hz that's going to be pouring off every wire no matter what you do? If it was really dangerous the only safe place is a cabin in the woods of Montana. |
|
|
|
I can't really speak for Britain, but in the U.S. there are barter laws that cover this. It's actually pretty common for people to barter trade (I'll cut your lawn if you give me some vegetables from your garden), but doing it a lot gets very difficult from an accounting perspective. This also has the effect you're describing, but I'm not sure if it's really that intentional or just a side benefit.
That's different because the guy isn't your employee. You can do a contract specified in anything you want. Now I'm not really knowledgeable on labor laws... but a plain reading of the law (m) “Wage” paid to any employee includes the reasonable cost, as determined by the Administrator, to the employer of furnishing such employee with board, lodging, or other facilities, if such board, lodging or other facilities are customarily furnished by such employer to his employees: Provided, That the cost of board, lodging, or other facilities shall not be included as a part of the wage paid to any employee to the extent it is excluded therefrom under the terms of a bona fide collective-bargaining agreement applicable to the particular employee: Provided further, That the Secretary is authorized to determine the fair value of such board, lodging, or other facilities for defined classes of employees and in defined areas, based on average cost to the employer or to groups of employers similarly situated, or average value to groups of employees, or other appropriate measures of fair value. Such evaluations, where applicable and pertinent, shall be used in lieu of actual measure of cost in determining the wage paid to any employee. In determining the wage an employer is required to pay a tipped employee, the amount paid such employee by the employee’s employer shall be an amount equal to—
(1) the cash wage paid such employee which for purposes of such determination shall be not less than the cash wage required to be paid such an employee on August 20, 1996; and
(2) an additional amount on account of the tips received by such employee which amount is equal to the difference between the wage specified in paragraph (1) and the wage in effect under section 206 (a)(1) of this title.
The additional amount on account of tips may not exceed the value of the tips actually received by an employee. The preceding 2 sentences shall not apply with respect to any tipped employee unless such employee has been informed by the employer of the provisions of this subsection, and all tips received by such employee have been retained by the employee, except that this subsection shall not be construed to prohibit the pooling of tips among employees who customarily and regularly receive tips.
says no you can't pay an employee in bitcoins. |
|
|
|
If the only excuse for the state to exist is the protection of property what is the excuse in a world where that is impossible ?
If you think the only reason the state exists is the protecting of property you're doing it wrong. Do any of you actually think a government is going to make laws to protect bitcoin users?
Many people use it to launder money, sell drugs and support terrorists. Anonymously.
Bitcoin is the governments worst nightmare.
I had the understanding that bitcoin was an underground currency void of big bank and government regulations.
If you want rules and laws stick to paypal.
The only laws that will be put in place for bitcoin will be punishment laws not protection laws.
I'm sure the laws will fall under homeland security or anti-terrorist laws.
As far as theft, how would you value the bitcoins? Tell the judge that mt.gox says they are worth $12 a piece? Who is mt.gox really?
The beauty of bitcoin is that it is unregulated and not bound by laws.
It may not be morally right to steal bitcoins but if you think laws will be made to favor bitcoin users you are sadly mistaken.
just my opinion...i have no facts.
Of course there are laws to protect bitcoins. Just not theft laws. And determining value would be the least of the problems in establishing a case. I steal baseball cards worth 12 dollars a piece? Who says; sportscards.com? Who is sportscards.com really. The court system isn't dumb if you put your uncle buck on who says he would have paid a million dollars for your bitcoins they aren't going to accept that. But mtgox.com moves like 500,000 dollars a day.... that's more then enough to establish a base value for stolen bitcoins. And of course bitcoin is bound by laws.... Just ask the IRS if you think differently; I'm sure they'd be willing to give you an offical opinion if you really want one. |
|
|
|
So just to speculate on that. Let's say we'll see massive electronics failure due to extreme solar activity.Would there be any point to make a paper backup of my wallet.dat before the ~21st of December? Can magnetic storms corrupt digitally stored binary data? Maybe it would be smart to print out the bitcoin's protocol or the source code just in case?
I'm just curious what are your thoughts on this end of the world scenario. I think it either doesn't bring us back to the stone age or if it does bitcoin would be the last thing to worry about.
Anything big enough to cause problems we will see coming and we can simply turn most things off to protect them. Anything big enough to still cause problems is likely to be devastating enough that your bitcoins aren't going to matter as cockroaches inherit the earth... |
|
|
|
I'm still a bit unclear... so it wasn' really a trojan but he was able to just walk in the front door using your remote admin software? what makes you think this? i had to run the teamviewer to access my data / computer network from outside, since i have several IT projects running (not only bitcoin mining) besides my full time job. Obviously this was a mistake. I now will pay a professional network security specialist to redo my whole IT setup. This costs a lot but will be cheaper than losing more bitcoins in the future How much you paying? |
|
|
|
|
