Quote from: erono on February 28, 2014, 05:52:00 AM If I win I am not sure how I can transfer the $10 to my account though. 1) after you receive the scan go to Apple customer service: http://www.apple.com/support/itunes/contact/2) click on itunes store support https://getsupport.apple.com/Issues.action3) click on itunes codes and cards 4) click on itunes card code is not readable 5) depending on how busy they are you will have various options, I suggest you used the email or chat option. 6) complete their information checklist as best you can a) Your contact information b) this is for USA itunes only c) Activation code (enter as much of the code as possible): d) iTunes Card serial number: e) How do I find my serial number? Purchased from: [I will give you that info with the purchase] f) Briefly provide any other details you think we need to know: |
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That is the very definition of the word prejudice - making a determination on a matter without having reasonably sufficient info to draw a rational conclusion. Frankly, the proposal is antithetical to everything the Bitcoin community values. It is like suggesting a synagogue raise money by holding an all you can eat pork BBQ. It doesn't take long to reject it. First, even if there were a way to impose a top-down solution on Bitcoin (how would this happen), nobody has even presented a proposal detailed enough to judge it. The moment we're trusting some dictatorial authority instead of the protocol itself, we might as well just be trading Linden dollars or some wholly imaginary currency. I think some consensus-based best practices might be in order, but you simply can't expect that everyone will accept even those, and as long as people insist on doing dumb things like leaving money on exchanges and "investing" in Ponzis, there's not much a central authority can do. How are you going to stop Bitcoiners from doing whatever they please? Guys with guns? Let's leave that kind of thing to governments. It doesn't matter if Mt Gox was run by scammers working with viruses infected computers and the stupidest customers on earth, the btc protocol via the blockchain MUST enable us to find all of the funds that entered and left Mt Gox. As such, this emergency isn't about Mt Gox, they were just the ones who pulled the alarm, this emergency is about the btc protocol working for the benefit of the btc society. If you can't find the "missing" money what is to stop all other exchanges from duplicating the disappearing btc trick over and over again? If the protocol allows for this sort of thing, evidently it does, then the protocol must be changed, if the protocol cannot be changed then the service providers must change their ways of operation to make up for the short coming of the protocol. However the protocol can be changed, major security upgrades can be instituted and other responsible measure can be taken to secure accountable operation of the system. But in addition to that, which might take lots of time, exchanges must now step-up and show themselves worth by proving solvency via blockchain, becoming community certified, subscribe to high ethical standards, upgrade security features, and be bonded, insured and able to provide performance guarantees. Otherwise the market value of btc will continue to sink to the level at which the market feels the btc experiment is worth, in less than a month it will be less than $100. Now before you think that would be a great buying opportunity, THAT VALUE WILL NOT INCREASE ABOVE THE $100. Without the trust the system cannot scale. I've estimated that we have until the beginning of the summer, approx 1 mos to make something meaningful happen. The markets lost 30% because of Mt Gox, but it has lost another 30% because the missing money issue is real and can EASILY happen again. It doesn't matter if your money is in cold storage, it will devalue where ever it stands $0 is $0 in all temperatures. |
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The bitcoin foundation should have been doing this already...
The point of a foundation, is that they actually have access and rules for joining, other than paying for ad-space and filling the foundations pockets for doing nothing.
That's centralization and/or regulation. I don't think anyone is calling out for Centralization and regulation but I do think the community is looking for openness and transparency (and isn't that the basic premise of bilcoin). If that requires an external body and maybe this is the foundation or maybe it is NewCo an (independent community elected team) but I think this can be accomplished very easily through self disclosure. This may not even need to be a body or group and simply the community migration to exchanges that are open. Centralization and regulation are not bad words just like needle and surgery are not bad when your system needs them urgently anyone that talk with an idealized view of bitcoin has not lost tons of money in the space, via Mt Gox, hacking, scams, or any other way, the simple fact is the space it far too dangerous to operate in any reasonably ordinary way. I'm not just calling for what you have provided for in the OP but also improvements to the btc protocol so security is written in; also for exchanges to be certified by community organizations, and for exchanges to be far more responsive to customer needs. The space is too small for pervasive nonsense it's time for responsible players to emerge, be recognized, and duplicated. |
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hahahahahaaaa the name says it all |
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So, what's the safest future for MrGox? Indictment and immediate remand on LI to protect from possible assassins? Three months in lockup while it's sorted out would keep him safe. But he might then need a phalanx of massive bodyguards surrounding him for his next what 60 years?
Keeping him safe from not only irate investors but how about obscure kill-for-hire that might turn up in the bitcoin investigation. Or other criminal enterprises that turned to bitcoin for its crypto-id only to find they've had a light focused on their business. Those unhappy customers won't be very forgiving.
If you could buy murder for dollars it's probably been done for bitcoin.
right now nobody is investigating......he is free to excute every possible obfuscation together with his laywers how to tranfer as much assets possible offshore and pay those ticks from our money --- wouldn´t everybody do it like this, knowing that the big fail encourages him to cover the shit up ?? are you sleeping under a rock? there are many investigations of all sorts taking place: from individuals, to groups, to academia, right up to and govt agencies |
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I'm unfamiliar with reddit, so I got confused both at the facts of the matter as well as who was saying what to whom. |
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... to trace where the GOX coins are. They already compiled a nice list of addresses and institutions. The institutions have the ID's of the users. http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~smeiklejohn/files/imc13.pdfGiven the size of these thefts, it shouldn't be hard to start placing some names to thefts. We need Gox to release some internal transaction info or at least contract with these folks to find who has it. My bet is the US government has already been working with this group in tracing silk road transactions, perhaps sheep marketplace as well. Never rest until these folks are caught, nor allow bitcoin to grow without showing there is some self policing going on, or deep regulations. "With these thefts, our ability to track the stolen money provides evidence that even the most motivated Bitcoin users (i.e., crimi- nals) are engaging in idioms of use that allow us to erode their anonymity. While one might argue that thieves could easily thwart our analysis, as Heuristic 2 is admittedly not robust in the face of adversarial behavior, our observation is that — at least at present — none of the criminals we studied seem to have taken such precautions. We further argue that the fairly direct flow of bitcoins from the point of theft to the deposit with an exchange provides some evidence that using exchanges to cash out at scale is inevitable, and thus that — again, at present — Bitcoin does not provide a particularly easy or effective way to transact large volumes of illicitly- obtained money." |
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sadly, the lawyer who prepared the document choose to ignore the fact that Mt Gox had a history of such unscrupulous actions, it was not more than 9 month prior to the most recent debacle that Mt Gox orchestrate another debacle. According to some industry pros Mt Gox goxxed the cryptocurrency community upwards of 7 times.
I read the MG Terms of Service agreement today and was shocked at what I saw.
The lawyer also spoke of "industry standards" which made me laugh, because I know there are no industry standards, and if there were MG would have been the one to create it considering he was the first to have a CC exchange.
This class action case is totally dependent on a criminal case, if you can't show that MG has the money then there is no money to be had.
My position on this matter is simple, FOLLOW THE MONEY, unlike all fiat btc has a "paper" trail -- the block chain. ALL of the proof is there for you to find, just do the pain staking homework to find it. Either you will find Mark on the other end of it or not, given how he ran things, I'm guessing you will find mark on the other end of it.
One thing I don't entirely understand is that usually you would name as many potential defendants as possible and leave it up to them to try to get themselves dismissed from the case. On page 2 of the filing, the Business Plan MtGox 2014-2017 is referred to in the footnotes. On page 4 of that Business plan, Jed McCaleb is named as one of the principals of MtGox (12%), the other being Tibanne (88%). And yet Jed McCaleb isn't named as a defendant in the lawsuit as an individual while Mark Karpeles is. That seems very...sloppy to me, especially in a case where it's extremely likely that attempts would be made to pierce the corporate veil and attach personal liability to MtGox principals. the lawyer either sees this for what it is -- 'a won case for a lost cause' as such take what he can get in legal fees from the client and hope for the best, ORRR as you said he needs to cross many more 't's, and dot many more 'i's. Don't forget he could amend his complaint. Given that the class is 1000 strong it was probably the right choice to be the first in. The case is still a lost cause, because either the money is not found and everyone gets $.10, or the money is found and they get 80% of it's value 3 years from now. |
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I must admit that I didn't even bother reading the OP.
Just the title was enough to say: NO
Let me say that again: NO
That is completely against the entire Bitcoin movement.
That is the very definition of the word prejudice - making a determination on a matter without having reasonably sufficient info to draw a rational conclusion. If the bitcoin movement is unsafe for worldwide consumption and only for a niche community then keep it to yourself, but if you want worldwide acceptance it must be safe. |
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Let me put this a different way for you pie-in-the-sky folk, it doesn't matter if the socalled protocol for btc is perfect, right now a REAL security issue has been identified, not the problem that MT Gox pointed us to, but the ability to trace 800K btc once controlled by MG, if the cryptocurrency community is unable to find the money then the system cannot and should not be trusted.
If that many Bitcoins could be stolen, missing, or untraced the protocol is unsafe for mass acceptance. If we don't find the funds before the summer radical change must occur in the system to make up for the failings or weaknesses of the protocol.
Wrong.The "safety" of the protocol has nothing to do with the Gox situation, as much as they might have wanted the public to think that. Nor was there an unknown weakness, the transaction malleability issue was known since 2011. The failing here as we are given to understand was they they didn't adjust their software to work around it and as a result got robbed blind. That is as inexcusable as if someone intentionally left their antivirus definitions 3 years out of date and then blame the antivirus software for having a fault when they get infected. Is it a fault in Bitcoin if you logged onto an exchange website and your account there says the 1000 BTC you deposited is currently in your account with them? Because unless you hold the private keys yourself to those coins then the aren't yours. If your account is telling you that the exchange has your coins but you can't withdraw them, and then it turns out they were long gone then isn't that misrepresentation at best, fraud as worst? I do agree with what you said about finding out where the BTC went, but we also need to find out what was going on behind the scenes at Gox. Hopefully there will be further leaks of documents from them so a proper autopsy can be performed here. My driving point was: 'don't get distracted by the malleability issue, or the ridiculous notion that the btc protocol is perfect, the focus should be on finding the money. Let me put this another way it doesn't matter if Mt Gox was operated in prison by the incarcerated hackers using computers littered with viruses of all sorts, and everyone could do anything they wanted with the funds, the btc protocol must allow us to find, trace, or track all of the 800K btc that once existed in MT Gox. It doesn't matter if it was stolen, got stuck in a hole, was put in cold storage, used to pay rent, etc ... we must be able to track it, trace it, and follow the money, that is the NUMBER 1 purpose of the block chain, and the blockchain is the core of the btc protocol. If you don't find the money, then every exchange has a recipe for doing the same thing on purpose, over and over again. That's why if the problem isn't solved via the btc protocol very soon (before the summer), then a "work around" will be necessary -- exchanges will have to adopt very serious changes to INSURE safety, accountability, transparency, solvency, etc ... As the title of the thread suggests it's either secure the system with code or with self-regulation at this moment we have neither, but only now did we realize that the king had no clothes we have until the beginning of the summer to fix this or else its back to single digits for btc with no hope for a rise without the safeguards. |
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Doing this will make more people think it's a Ponzi. Let the technology mature over time with integrity.
Given what happen at Mt Gox and the cryptocurrency community's inability to find, or follow the money, it IS A PONZI scheme -- everyone puts in, everyone is making great profits over time, then suddenly all of the money vanishes. CURRENTLY, as things sit, there is NOTHING to stop any other exchange form doing the exact same thing again. - what is the solvency status of each one of the exchanges (assets via block chain) - how much was stolen, or missing from each one of the exchanges - how secure are the exchange sites - what is the public security protocol - what is the guarantees, assurances, and insurances - what is the quality of customer service The "technology" will age in with time, it will only MATURE with experience the Mt Gox experience is changing the 5yr btc infant into an adult real fast. |
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Self-regulaton is not a promise that some representative can make. To be self-regulative would mean that it is a function of the network itself. The problem is that gox&childporn aren't the problems of currency but problems of specific markets and should be solved as such; we need an open market network with somekind of internal regulation (trust/voting) system implemented.
Don't solve problems with politics like the uncivilized non-crypto barbarians, solve it with technology.
Also: Isn't the point of bitcoin precisely to destroy the need for trusted third parties, as we have seen in history that there really aren't any third parties that can be trusted.
Let me put this a different way for you pie-in-the-sky folk, it doesn't matter if the socalled protocol for btc is perfect, right now a REAL security issue has been identified, not the problem that MT Gox pointed us to, but the ability to trace 800K btc once controlled by MG, if the cryptocurrency community is unable to find the money then the system cannot and should not be trusted. If that many Bitcoins could be stolen, missing, or untraced the protocol is unsafe for mass acceptance. If we don't find the funds before the summer radical change must occur in the system to make up for the failings or weaknesses of the protocol. |
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Wondering if i should buy in at $620 Canadian (560 USD) or if should wait to see if it goes back down?
funny you should mention that here's an indicator that should show your 560usd to be a safe bet Coinbase is a very conservative exchanges, usually their rates are generally below the market for selling and above the market for buying, in addition to that their fee is 1% (100 - 150% higher than the rest of the market). Right now their buy and sell rates are both higher than the market, $575. To me that is a great indication that rates are very much expected to rise, I just don't know why. If you had a Coinbase account (I'll send you an invite if you like they give us both $5 if you do a trade of $100 or more) you could buy at wherever you now shop $560 btc then immediately sell it on Coinbase for 574 right now (assuming you can still it it at the rate you mentioned). Thanks for the offer, but I have my money in VirtEx and i think that I'll keep it on there. Moving it around just sounds expensive with fee's. Right now the sells are running from $620 to $630 or so. There fee's are 1.5%, I guess thats high? I'm completely new to this portion of Bitcoin. I'm just trying to figure out what the right move is. Pretty sure I'm just over thinking this. I just have the drop to $400ish still in the back of my head. Wondering if it could drop to that again or worse? Would rather buy in as low as possible. I don't see $400 anytime soon, you will need some pretty bad news to justify further negative movement below the current floor of $550. the 1.5% is very high but it scales down dramatically so it's cool for the avg investor and good for the heavy traffic guy. All of those other fees are kinda crazy. I was really shocked at all of what you must give them in terms of financial and personal info to have a verified account. I saw a btc ATM located in toronto which took your palm print to get btc have you had the opportunity to use a btc atm? |
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I keep hearing Andreas Antonopoulos talking about this, and have seen a few others say it too.
Even if you do storage offline, on paper wallets, they recommend moving the coins every so often.
If that paper wallet never sees the light of day, why would you have to move the coins? Talk about a hassle and a half, trying to import these things, not to mention the stress of something going wrong.
I prefer to just leave things as they are.
Why do people make this suggestion?
-B-
most of the time when you are listening to Andreas it's extemporaneous, and most of the time he is simply repeating what he has said over and over again. so sometimes he leaves out bits that he was suppose to say or goes off on familiar tangents and forgets to circle back to tie it up neatly. The answer to your question is once you have your paper wallet properly hashed with an offline address generated from your virgin computer your coins are safe from the net If you listen to many of what Andreas you remove many of the weeds from his pearls of wisdom, you'll get used to it. these should help you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP9-lAYngi4&list=PLEUe0yAulQTtJp-KuUVxx_acD0B4cOh7ohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd9C9TQ3pWY&list=PLEUe0yAulQTtJp-KuUVxx_acD0B4cOh7oand the best of the three is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0cGvUFBNEQ&list=PLEUe0yAulQTtJp-KuUVxx_acD0B4cOh7o |
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Wondering if i should buy in at $620 Canadian (560 USD) or if should wait to see if it goes back down?
funny you should mention that here's an indicator that should show your 560usd to be a safe bet Coinbase is a very conservative exchanges, usually their rates are generally below the market for selling and above the market for buying, in addition to that their fee is 1% (100 - 150% higher than the rest of the market). Right now their buy and sell rates are both higher than the market, $575. To me that is a great indication that rates are very much expected to rise, I just don't know why. If you had a Coinbase account (I'll send you an invite if you like they give us both $5 if you do a trade of $100 or more) you could buy at wherever you now shop $560 btc then immediately sell it on Coinbase for 574 right now (assuming you can still it it at the rate you mentioned). |
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theymos could just as easily spend money for this. God knows he has funds at his disposal and he doesn't have to worry about pesky things like by-laws.
theymos couldn't have helped - not enough money! It looks like what happened at Gox was agreed between the market maker and Gox / forced by the market maker upon Gox (Gox got goxed). Here is a story told from a trader's perspective (this of course does not tell how on earth Gox cannot account for BTC 850k!): We now know that Gox charting data was very likely inaccurate and more than likely very doctored. In other words, only unreliable conclusions can made based on Mt Gox generated info. |
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yes the bitcoin foundation who is calling for regulation would be more than happy to find whatever they want to make that happen. so glad we have TBF for our own protection  anyone dumb enough to trust mark with btc should not have btc. And the outside majority community is saying pretty much the same thing about all of us, 'anyone dumb encough to invest in invisible currency with real money should not be trusted with real money bashing the victim is only normal for bullies and if i left a lambo on the mexican boarder with the keys in it and running it would not be my fault if it git stolen. id the call the govt of mexico and demand an investigation. any one whi gave their btc for mark to hold really did not care too much about their btc to look at the 10,000 threads telling people not to use gox so the question is, do you own any btc? is for you too are opperating in an environment which is riddled with uncertainty, major problems, etc, yada, yada, whodo, ... but there's a reason you have chooses to invest in the position, it's because you think you know what you are doing and you trust the players that you have chooses to play with. If you want the 10,000 reasons to not invest in btc ask 1000 people who don't own btc |
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hmmm the gox problem. 0) figure out the exact amount of missing coins and figure out where they went 1) verify which balance include part of the stolen ones 2) Contact persons in possession by finding actual Identities without infringing on rights....for which said agency is opening it'self wide for a class privacy lawsuit 3) prove that they actually are in my possession 4) gain access to my wallet 5) try to break my password, 215 characters 6) separate stolen from legitimate inputs 7) figure out which gox customer exactly owned those particular coins  manage to distribute each and every coin to its owner quite frankly without trying to confuse each other with technical stuff....it's a non starter. this all assumes i am in the U.S, now, in my country the U.S has no power, no say in legal matters and definitely not on illegitimate currency. So, what if 45% of the coins are in countries that do not care what Americans do? This exercise (theoretically) would only be useful if it were a national crypto currrecy, not one that is spread over the world, and certainly not in one whose tx are irreversible. it doesn't matter if the USA can find the money, and they can, what's important is that the cryptocurrency community find the money for the sanity and security of the cc industry especially btc. right now the current true value of btc is about $400, add it the hype it's about $1000, subtract the FUD it's about $600, remove the uncertainty it's down to $500. when the uncertainty turns to certain and that certainty isn't positive then the $500 goes to $300. If you are unable to trust anyone further that you can throw them you are not going to work with very many people. |
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Sorry if this was discussed, but in USA if you buy stolen property and you are caught with it you have to return it to the original owner at your loss.
Now, lets say someone did steal the Mt Gox. Bitcoins, and then you bought some of them unknowingly.
If they could trace back through the blockchain that those bitcoins were indeed stolen Mt. Gox. coins, wouldn't they be able to take them back from you?
I doubt that this would happen. The Bitcoins would not have the same address. They are not the same Bitcoins. Maybe Bitcoins obtained straight from a stolen source are one thing, but Bitcoins that have transferred MANY times with differing amounts over a year? What basis would that be? They do not do that with cash or currency. sure they do, the OP is correct if you are able to track, trace, or connect the dots then you are obligated to return the money. Jewish organizations are collecting gold, money, and many other valuable things that they were able to convince a judge, and or jury that was stolen from their people during their stay at auschwitz concentration camps. the blockchain provides a perfect vehicle for that connecting of the dots. Now let's look at it in a bit of a different way, if I sold my car to you and you gave me counterfeit money which I took to the bank, who subsequently confiscated said fakes funds. Do you think you are off the hook for my money? Of course not, regardless of the law, but in this case the law is on my side. You would also need to do some 'spaning to the coppers. The very definition of money laundering is taking ill gotten gains and introducing it into legal commerce. So if you purchased a btc for $40 when the going rate was $80 or $800 there is likely a good reason for it. The block chain might not be able to tell us the market rate for the coin at that time but you can put together perfect valuations for what the coin was worth at the time of the transfer simply be average all of the coins sold in that block or perhaps the chain of blocks for that hour surrounding that transaction. being uncooperative only serves to distance yourself from the good of the community, as the community matures it will tend to remember the bad guy with perfect recall |
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What about individual regulation? If you don't want to lose your BTC don't deposit it anywhere you don't own the private keys, simple. If one prefer a different regulation, one may just deposit it anywhere even not owning the private keys.
Just make your own set of rules whatever it be and take the responsability for what you do.
without intergrity you could loose your btc BEFORE you get it, there have been many miners burned by mining pools there are developers who have devised wallets that steal your coins once it reaches a certain level there are developers who create websites that offer you free coins but place viruses on your computer that raid your wallets at every turn you could lose your coins, your coins are vulnerable as long as they are connected to the internet and useless as long as they are not connected to the internet, so at some point in order to used them you must expose them to many risks. There are tons of on and offline p2p scams. if you think there is any safe point in the btc system you need to remove your money from it |
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