Like I said, I have a huge heart for PODC and love the mission, but I still have a strong feeling that we've gone away from our core mission - and will end up primarily supporting new users and science with valuable time that could potentially be used for witnessing/gospel mission/spreading Jesus. And of course, organic growth. Anyway, moving on to your concern about 5 year olds, I strongly disagree that POG2 is as hard as PODC. Its an utter fallacy. I wrote out just some of the acronyms off the top of my head a few pages back (for PODC) and its simply the truth that a new user would not only need to delve into crypto, mining, but also into all these other things that they might not really care about. But let me get to my point, the main advantage to POG is that every single element related to block solving/mining/rewards is within the wallet in a hard and signed way - meaning that new users get a copy of the wallet, they receive 500 bbp from the faucet (or whatever), they tithe, the rewards are given within the integrated pool, and there are no third party pieces of infrastructure (no passwords, no accounts, no contracts, no magnitude, no third party helper sites, no need for support) etc, and this means a tight money supply - all emitted coins are signed and therefore there can not be any leakage or mistakes made (with pools or anything). This would satisfy Satoshi and some of the bigger investors that might be making a pause to trust that we dont leak any coins anywhere. Finally, as far as explaining it, its really a piece of cake. If you experimented with our wallet for one night with POG you would be mining. Its as simple as: 1. Download wallet. 2. Collect faucet reward. 3. Enter two settings in config file (genproclimit=1 and tithe=10) <- NOTE: We will definitely automate these things once we know how testing is working in testnet 4. Start the miner For the advanced user, they will just type getminininginfo and learn about a few new fields (how tithe_difficulty effects their ability to tithe). These are basic concepts, and people need to wake up - A 5 year old really could mine biblepay and get the money for the first purchase from Mom  . Except, if Difficulty is at about 32K, then the 500 they get from a faucet will 1) Not be 30 days old for 30 days 2) Never exceed the 12,500 BBP balance they need tithe In short, the higher the difficulty (which by logic will trend towards the 32K level which is the break even level), the less likely a new user can easily participate. This would likely cause confusion on why the PoG was not working for them, and for a neophyte computer user, would likely be enough to frustrate them out of the coin. Meanwhile, a certain faction of our users would likely create 1000 new wallets with 18K BBP in them to get extra rewards (waiting out the time limit as experienced users and selecting enough to perpetually fund the system while it was profitable to do). Except you forgot that pool payouts are daily and the pool reward is re-used as a new tithe over and over - so this is also inaccurate. If we work together this simple "problem" (which I suppose isn't a problem) can be solved. On creating new wallets, I guess you didn't read the wiki, so yes, this is also inaccurate (unless you want to waste your time and create 1000 wallets for no reason). As far as "breakeven", the entire difficulty range is 'profitable' from a mining standpoint (we pay 1-2 mil a day for rewards and collect 100k per day in tithes) - so I wouldnt assume 32767 is the breakeven, as your not taking into consideration the coin age required to push up to 32767 - it might be somewhere between 1000 and 32K but I think we are both guessing without making a simulation. The answer lies in how many users have coin-age available on a given day. I recommend trying to work with us to help the newbie get involved with potential solutions in testnet - why hurt the new users? |
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I remember Rob and Sunk were both talking with SimpleSwap a couple months ago, were we able to make a deal with them? https://simpleswap.io/I think the issue is he e-mailed you at your biblepay address and I just replied and said to give us a couple weeks to work some things out and he replied to all and said OK. He had a couple questions to you about twitter I think. |
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do you think grc pool will be creating masternodes? i dont think so, they buy stake to make coins. if it will not be posible, they just sell bbp coins and continue with only own coin
diff, min coin age, max tithe amount, min coin amount, reaper reward, sower reward etc..
i think this is too complicated, it will be same like now, new user will be lost in terms
if we need something simple, just make wallet with start/stop mining button, no setup, nothing, just click to mine
Like I said, I have a huge heart for PODC and love the mission, but I still have a strong feeling that we've gone away from our core mission - and will end up primarily supporting new users and science with valuable time that could potentially be used for witnessing/gospel mission/spreading Jesus. And of course, organic growth. Anyway, moving on to your concern about 5 year olds, I strongly disagree that POG2 is as hard as PODC. Its an utter fallacy. I wrote out just some of the acronyms off the top of my head a few pages back (for PODC) and its simply the truth that a new user would not only need to delve into crypto, mining, but also into all these other things that they might not really care about. But let me get to my point, the main advantage to POG is that every single element related to block solving/mining/rewards is within the wallet in a hard and signed way - meaning that new users get a copy of the wallet, they receive 500 bbp from the faucet (or whatever), they tithe, the rewards are given within the integrated pool, and there are no third party pieces of infrastructure (no passwords, no accounts, no contracts, no magnitude, no third party helper sites, no need for support) etc, and this means a tight money supply - all emitted coins are signed and therefore there can not be any leakage or mistakes made (with pools or anything). This would satisfy Satoshi and some of the bigger investors that might be making a pause to trust that we dont leak any coins anywhere. Finally, as far as explaining it, its really a piece of cake. If you experimented with our wallet for one night with POG you would be mining. Its as simple as: 1. Download wallet. 2. Collect faucet reward. 3. Enter two settings in config file (genproclimit=1 and tithe=10) <- NOTE: We will definitely automate these things once we know how testing is working in testnet 4. Start the miner For the advanced user, they will just type getminininginfo and learn about a few new fields (how tithe_difficulty effects their ability to tithe). These are basic concepts, and people need to wake up - A 5 year old really could mine biblepay and get the money for the first purchase from Mom . |
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hmmm maybe in this case i'll just need to know how i can tithe before others do it? if limit will be 150bbp then i'll use 2 wallets and i will have 300 etc... Its addressed in the wiki: https://wiki.biblepay.org/Proof-of-Giving-IINot possible. Please guys read the wiki first. A) You can't tithe just any coin, you must tithe a coin with coin_age > diff level B) If you split wallets you just split up your own coins, that means you have half the coins available to tithe with (see Difficulty Requirement attributes, there are 3 to the algo near bottom of page). |
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Let's give a big thanks to QIEX for donating all of 2018's trading profits to our orphan foundation! QIEX has donated: 106,490 BBP! Thanks QIEX! QIEX interview with BBP founder: http://pool.biblepay.org/docs/QIEX%20BBP%20ACCESS.pdf** NOTE ** Ricky (CEO) and Linda (Bus Development) from QIEX pledge to notify the Chinese Crypto-Whales of BiblePay over the next quarter. They will be introducing the whales to their exchange and promoting biblepay. We will keep everyone updated on this and how we are received. Rob, 106,409 is it a lot? When we sent more, you never wrote thank you. what is going on? Hmm, it's kind of a confusing question, what was given? |
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Voting with masternodes is of course technologically much better than voting on the forum, but if the poll mainly concerns miners who probably don't have masternodes, then it's not very adequate.
In another coin I follow, they have true governance without masternodes! And it's actually very simple: 1 coin = 1 vote. So literally everyone who holds the coins can vote, and their weight is precisely equal to their "skin in the game". Can't have it more fair than that. And the voting process itself is also very simple, you just sign a message from your wallet which contains "YES", "NO" or "ABSTAIN". In that particular coin, you have to copy that signed message to a website to actually vote, but if we can go a step further than that, everything could be done in the wallet with just a few clicks. Rob, what do you think?
I think that our sanctuaries represent the coin as-is and they have enough exposure to mining algorithms to guide our future in almost every situation. Especially since the spirit of the poll is "future easy adoption" (and includes elements of changing the payout mechanism from a superblock to a pool) - anything regarding the financial future of the coin will ultimately need to be a sanc poll for prod. (This poll is a pre-production proposal however). However, in relation to : User Weight vs Sanctuary weight for other polls, I do feel there will be occasions when we want input from users (based on coin-weight) - for example for a poll that has something to do with multiple choice UI experience that doesn't materially make a financial decision for biblepay. In that case, I think it would be useful to have in-wallet voting that allows multiple choice answers based on users total coin-weight. I want to have a chance to talk about this in more detail, but for now, we have the roots of something in the wallet in test now related to business objects that allow a user to vote on a gospel link or Christian Video using coin-weight. I'm thinking in the future we expand this by adding a Poll object, and allow it to be votable. |
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finaly i read all pog, pog2 and so articles
if i understand it correctly, then everyting what i need is tithe some coins - so no hashpower or many machines needed
maximum tithe is for user or for all together?
i see few problems:
tithes will go to maximum quickly - it is reasonable, if i can tithe more and gain even more, i will tithe... so tithes will hit maximum or more quickly (if max is per user, i'll just create more users if needed). it will bouncing somewhere around sum of tithes= sum of payouts. so how much i tithe, that much i get back = not interesting
if algo limit this somehow and there will be some limit for tithe, for example max tithe 10bbp, and payouts will be 100, then i'll create many accounts(10,100,1000+...), until it will be profitable for me. and of course it will end with same, what you tithe that much you get = not interesting
lets say it will be somehow... i'll tithe 1000, and get 10000. everytihing what i need is tithe from wallet = no costs for me. so to get profit i'll take any price over 0. in other words i'll invest nothing so there is no cover with runnig costs (electricity, price of cloud servers...). i'll pay 0 and sell rewards for 1$, why not? it is still profit for me, for nothing. i could not see reason why price should stay or go higher. equation is simple, coin price is cost price. if coin price is much higher, then lots of miners come or (as in bbp case) price will go down. without real expenses, coin price is 0
this will end with all coins as tithes, everybody gets nothing, exchanges will be overloaded with tithe coins, price will be 1 sat or less
and as bonus: now there is lot of big miners who mining bbp as bonus beside other coins like byteball or grc. if there will not be podc, then they switch back to their primary coin and dump bbp on exchanges (10+ milions)
I think you missed one of the elements of POG2: The difficulty algorithm (and maybe the coin-age also, and you also missed the tithe_cap). If we have a target of 100K per day tithes, and sowers have already tithed 50K of that in the first 2 hours of the day, the difficulty would have jumped to 32,767. At that level you can only tithe 150 bbp from coins you own that are older than 30 days and more valuable than 12,500. Knowing this info, I think it materially changes all of your post. (On a side note I disagree that miners with laptops have 0 electric cost; I think they might be equal to more like 3 satoshi and then you have the common-sense forward value of biblepay, so its hard to conject < 5 satoshi even with an army of 20,000 laptops, but this is all speculation. Most likely with the wider spread holdings, individuals would be Less apt to sell and more apt to hold - because of the hope element). I do believe if we unlocked 100 Million BBP we would see a 33 mil liquidation, but I think it would quickly dissapate as whales bought it up for 4 satoshi. |
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Let's give a big thanks to QIEX for donating all of 2018's trading profits to our orphan foundation! QIEX has donated: 106,490 BBP! Thanks QIEX! QIEX interview with BBP founder: http://pool.biblepay.org/docs/QIEX%20BBP%20ACCESS.pdf** NOTE ** Ricky (CEO) and Linda (Bus Development) from QIEX pledge to notify the Chinese Crypto-Whales of BiblePay over the next quarter. They will be introducing the whales to their exchange and promoting biblepay. We will keep everyone updated on this and how we are received. |
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I added a sanctuary vote for exploring POG2 as a potential replacement for PODC.
Please vote Sancs over the next 14 days~.
EDIT: I'm not against phasing POG2 in if it wins (as a temporary replacement for POBH). The issue is I'm not sure if we will go through the entire design/testnet/change/release process if the algorithm isn't supported as a replacement to PODC to begin with (as that is technically what the idea was created to address).
I'm all for safety - testnet - phasing in as POBH enhancement - and then replacing PODC if POG2 works as expected.
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Frankly, I am not even sure why these polls exist. Are we going to have a new poll as long as the result is not what is expected?
Rob was concerned PoG v1 had some holes specifically with the ability to game the donation scheme so you can get the biggest percent of payments by running hundreds of BiblePay QT wallets. PoG v2 has some of those issues addressed by utilizing concepts from an altcoin called Lynx (getlynx.io) via their HPoW (Hybrid Proof of Work) which uses some clever tricks to equitably distribute mining rewards using code and data from the blockchain. I'm in support of PoG v2 with the caveat that it replace Proof of Work (BiblePay calls it Proof of Bible Hash PoBH) as a test. I think PoG v2 can be viable, but just need to test the waters slowly. It can also replace PoDC, but needs more support before we think about removing PoDC. Correct, except the POG v2 addl features didn't come from Lynx. The single coin spend (minimum age, minimum amount, and max_tithe_amount) came from the idea of adding a POG_Difficulty_algorithm, which is an original idea. Really the credit can be given to classic POS. I was trying to avoid POS schemes in POG v1, until we realized that we needed a tithe_cap and a tithe_exploit protection mechanism then it was clear we had to have at least a UTXO spec in the proposal. I read something about coin-age so I thought you took some concepts from Lynx's Hybrid Proof of Work (HPoW). So, PoG (Proof of Giving) is tied to classic PoS with some tweaks for donations? Hope you consider replacing PoBH with PoG v2. I will support that approach. No, PoG is an original idea (not born from POS) with an internal pool (I believe that is a first) and share weight/rewards based on tithe levels to the foundation (which is also original). It would use coin_age which is an *element* of POS to limit giving - but it is not based on proof-of-stake. Lynx didn't influence it as we already have proof-of-stake in BiblePay (for our proof of concept for POL). I mentioned my thoughts on Lynx right after you posted it (and I thought you read it and replied). (On a side note I mentioned in the wiki that POG2 differs from POS in the sense that it seeks a single coin so that the smallest wallets can mine, in contrast to POS where the richest are rewarded commensurately - as I feel its important in this easy adoption scenario to attempt to spread the rewards out to every newbie by tithe amount in the pool). Just to be clear, I don't intend to create a proposal for POG to replace POBH as POG2 was born out of simplifying our infrastructure for easy adoption. So please if anyone is pushing for POG to replace POBH only, vote against it. |
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Just talking out loud,
I dont know which people made forum accounts, and how many of the forum accounts are the same person
(its easy for some to create multiple email addresses and use different IP addresses)
We also dont know how much each of these forum accounts has invested into BiblePay
I am also not sure how actively people read bitcointalk or the biblepay forum,
(a proposal at least shows up in everyones wallet)
Basically what I am trying to say is, I trust masternode votes a lot more than forum votes,
but I understand forum votes usefulness with multiple choices and quick feedback,
but masternode votes are actually based on how much money someone has invested!
I believe a more true decision on project direction should come from a masternode vote
(Though I do kind of think miners should get voting power with their staked coins)
I think your right Togo - I was excited about POG2 for a while then started to get influenced by the latest poll - thinking it's not worth writing for testnet if the supermajority don't want it. However, I think it's worth prodding the sanctuaries opinion on POG2. I'll add a Sanc proposal within 24 hours. |
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Just talking out loud,
I dont know which people made forum accounts, and how many of the forum accounts are the same person
(its easy for some to create multiple email addresses and use different IP addresses)
We also dont know how much each of these forum accounts has invested into BiblePay
I am also not sure how actively people read bitcointalk or the biblepay forum,
(a proposal at least shows up in everyones wallet)
Basically what I am trying to say is, I trust masternode votes a lot more than forum votes,
but I understand forum votes usefulness with multiple choices and quick feedback,
but masternode votes are actually based on how much money someone has invested!
I believe a more true decision on project direction should come from a masternode vote
(Though I do kind of think miners should get voting power with their staked coins)
You make it sound like forum people are untrustworthy, while those who have purchased masternodes somehow knows what's best? And the rich get richer... Well actually what he says is based in truth: Masternode (Sanctuary) votes are signed by the owners and include the democratic weight of the most invested in BiblePay, while forum votes otoh could be subject to multiple account attacks or administrator corruption of the sql server. So Sanc votes should be trusted to a very high degree (9) while Id give a forum vote a ~6 (since we were clearly attacked on one of my older polls 6 months ago - remember I witnessed 20 new accounts per minute until I suspended new accounts until the poll was over). |
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Frankly, I am not even sure why these polls exist. Are we going to have a new poll as long as the result is not what is expected?
Rob was concerned PoG v1 had some holes specifically with the ability to game the donation scheme so you can get the biggest percent of payments by running hundreds of BiblePay QT wallets. PoG v2 has some of those issues addressed by utilizing concepts from an altcoin called Lynx (getlynx.io) via their HPoW (Hybrid Proof of Work) which uses some clever tricks to equitably distribute mining rewards using code and data from the blockchain. I'm in support of PoG v2 with the caveat that it replace Proof of Work (BiblePay calls it Proof of Bible Hash PoBH) as a test. I think PoG v2 can be viable, but just need to test the waters slowly. It can also replace PoDC, but needs more support before we think about removing PoDC. I have to say this is crazy to even think about turning off PoBH and PoDC We are desperately looking for new users and the idea is cut off all current userts in the hope they will switch to something new?  Stay simple - by all means add something new - but do NOT cut off your current user base!! PM From the looks of the current poll outcome we will most likely be staying with PODC (6 days to go). But if we don't gain 1000 new users by June 2019, I think we should continue to take a hard look at features that offer easy adoption. On the bright side I see a strong uptick in PODC difficulty (see the pool.biblepay.org Reports | Difficulty History). We are finally close to surpassing the all-time high in PODC diff. |
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hmm, how can i do podcupdate with custom amount? i started few servers and rac is going up very fast, 50k per day or more. and if podcupdate from morning did 1m (110% which is max) then in the evening it is not enough and i'm going below 100%, maybe to 80% or so and also payout is then lower.
is it possible to do podcupdate manualy with custom amount?
Yes , please place this in config file: utxooverride=nnnnn |
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Frankly, I am not even sure why these polls exist. Are we going to have a new poll as long as the result is not what is expected?
Rob was concerned PoG v1 had some holes specifically with the ability to game the donation scheme so you can get the biggest percent of payments by running hundreds of BiblePay QT wallets. PoG v2 has some of those issues addressed by utilizing concepts from an altcoin called Lynx (getlynx.io) via their HPoW (Hybrid Proof of Work) which uses some clever tricks to equitably distribute mining rewards using code and data from the blockchain. I'm in support of PoG v2 with the caveat that it replace Proof of Work (BiblePay calls it Proof of Bible Hash PoBH) as a test. I think PoG v2 can be viable, but just need to test the waters slowly. It can also replace PoDC, but needs more support before we think about removing PoDC. Correct, except the POG v2 addl features didn't come from Lynx. The single coin spend (minimum age, minimum amount, and max_tithe_amount) came from the idea of adding a POG_Difficulty_algorithm, which is an original idea. Really the credit can be given to classic POS. I was trying to avoid POS schemes in POG v1, until we realized that we needed a tithe_cap and a tithe_exploit protection mechanism then it was clear we had to have at least a UTXO spec in the proposal. |
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Btw guys, I've been testing out GIN and they seem to be solid (been up for a few weeks now and they maintained the nodes).
I wanted to mention, GIN has a $4.50 per month service called "cloud". It's really the same quality as the $15 plan from what I can tell - my BiblePay sancs are doing fine on the $4.50 per month plan.
Maybe some will decide to use GIN with these lower rates.
Note to investors waiting to spin up a sanctuary: Now you can do it with GIN's turnkey service without knowing anything technical.
Will someone post a link to GIN? tia Sure: https://p.ginplatform.io/#!/ When you click the + button, you can choose "cloud node". Wow, we have over 120 Sancs at GIN already, thats great! Why is BiblePay voted down and considered for delisting? How do I get to the voted down screen? I don't know. You need to click i symbol after Tier # Tier 3 iTiers are assigned by vote of GIN masternode holders. Blockchains in Tier 3 were voted down and are considered for delisting when the number of nodes drops. Thanks, found it, so I spoke to Rattle about it, he said we have nothing to worry about. If we are increasing our node count (which we appear to be) then the GIN masternode owners will have a propensity to try to vote us out of Tier 3 into tier 2. He said we have no risk of being delisted right now (we have been in tier 3 forever). Rattle will give us his votes to move us up to tier 2 also! |
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Btw guys, I've been testing out GIN and they seem to be solid (been up for a few weeks now and they maintained the nodes).
I wanted to mention, GIN has a $4.50 per month service called "cloud". It's really the same quality as the $15 plan from what I can tell - my BiblePay sancs are doing fine on the $4.50 per month plan.
Maybe some will decide to use GIN with these lower rates.
Note to investors waiting to spin up a sanctuary: Now you can do it with GIN's turnkey service without knowing anything technical.
Will someone post a link to GIN? tia Sure: https://p.ginplatform.io/#!/ When you click the + button, you can choose "cloud node". Wow, we have over 120 Sancs at GIN already, thats great! Why is BiblePay voted down and considered for delisting? How do I get to the voted down screen? I don't know. |
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Btw guys, I've been testing out GIN and they seem to be solid (been up for a few weeks now and they maintained the nodes).
I wanted to mention, GIN has a $4.50 per month service called "cloud". It's really the same quality as the $15 plan from what I can tell - my BiblePay sancs are doing fine on the $4.50 per month plan.
Maybe some will decide to use GIN with these lower rates.
Note to investors waiting to spin up a sanctuary: Now you can do it with GIN's turnkey service without knowing anything technical.
Will someone post a link to GIN? tia Sure: https://p.ginplatform.io/#!/ When you click the + button, you can choose "cloud node". Wow, we have over 120 Sancs at GIN already, thats great! |
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