Secondly, states evolved naturally from the initial condition very close to what you call here anarchy. Because of the universal character of this phenomenon throughout the world, I find it very dubious that anything like anarchy has even a remote chance of materialization or persistence in reality
You have a point here, but you do realize that there is such a thing as "progress" exhibited by human history? The argument that something can not be, because it hasn't been before is a weak one. I think bitcoiners are more liable than most to understand If you are referring here to human nature, I don't think it can be changed or will change any time soon. Neither do I think that it's worth trying to change it because what we already have by now (in regard to our nature) isn't that bad really. I'd rather go for a step-by-step change of the existing system and evolving it into something else than total demolition or dismatling. And this most likely wouldn't be anarchy as it is drawn here..
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Could I expect you throwing some light on what you meant by the state being involuntary and anarchism being voluntary?
There is no academic consensus on the most appropriate definition of the state...
The most commonly used definition is Max Weber's, which describes the state as a compulsory political organization with a centralized government that maintains a monopoly of the legitimate use of force within a certain territory. Anarchism is a political philosophy that advocates stateless societies often defined as self-governed voluntary institutions, but that several authors have defined as more specific institutions based on non-hierarchical free associations. I never said that state would not be engaging in compulsion and coercion. These "features" are inherent to it, that's what makes such an institution a state. My point, actually, boils down to two things which I expand on in detail below Firstly, state is just a somewhat embellished form of exploitation and expropriation that one small group of people promotes towards the rest of population. Why that group of people would ultimately have to restrain themselves from looting the population, I had explained in my posts before Secondly, states evolved naturally from the initial condition very close to what you call here anarchy. Because of the universal character of this phenomenon throughout the world, I find it very dubious that anything like anarchy has even a remote chance of materialization or persistence in reality
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Нипонятно про налоги. По логике некоторых отписавшихся тут получается, что если я куплю в банке доллары и буду держать их у себя на счету в этом же банке, то если курс доллара поднимется, то с этого я тоже получу доход в рублях и должен буду заплатить налог? Кого-то вообще за все время хоть раз штрафовали за неуплату налога за подобное?) Если мне не изменяет память, то всё зависит от того, по какому курсу вы покупаете-продаёте валюту. Если курс при покупке выше курса ЦБ, действующего на тот момент времени, а при продаже, соответственно, ниже, то никаких налогов с курсовой разницы платить не надо (даже какая-то статья вроде есть в НК). Очевидно, что ни один обменник или банк в здравом уме не будет продавать валюту ниже текущего курса, а покупать выше, поэтому вопрос в подавляющем большинстве случаев отпадает сам собой. Даже если курс резко меняется, то менялы, как правило, тупо раздвигают ноги спред в свою пользу...
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Yes, but bitcoin is not legal tender unlike money in the monetary systems you described in your post, so its life may actually turn out to be very short.
Or its life may actually turn out to be very long. Gold was around before the phrase "legal tender" had meaning. How long has mankind used gold? Very long, since ancient times indeed. But gold has qualities that are valued by most people throughout the world. Does bitcoin have that level of appeal, glamor and magnetism that would attract to it as many people even without being a legal tender?
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Another form of socialism is planned economy, which is only one sustainable model for some nations that for the unknown reason cannot successfully live in the market conditions. It may be some genetic traits, mentality etc but always when you try to establish laissez-faire policies here, these countries return to the pre-modern level. Before USSR collapse some African countries had a planned economy and rather high quality life, but now they are fully impoverished. Without oil and gas revenues Russia also would be at the level of Sierra Leone now.
Though I agree with what your post on the whole, just a warning. When making comparisons, check what you are comparing against. Sierra Leone is among the top ten diamond producing nations and a major producer of gem-quality diamonds, also rich in other minerals. Thus being rich in natural resources doesn't guarantee the country can't be impoverished...
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Aren't we still using 80s technology for bank wires? Haven't we had "dollars" since 1792?
The lifecycle of each new credible monetary system is looooonnnngggg. Congress passed the Gold Reserve Act on 30 January 1934, nationalizing all the US citizens' gold. (The next day F. D. Roosevelt changed the value of the dollar from $20.67 to the troy ounce to $35 to the troy ounce.) We lasted on this monetary system for 37.5 years! It wasn't until August 15, 1971, that R. Nixon ended convertibility of the dollar to gold. Our new "unbacked" dollar has lasted 42 more years, bringing us to today. After excessive money printing and debt accumulation, there is now incredible pressure to adopt a new monetary system!
In 15 years, bitcoin will still be young. If bitcoin grows to become a dominant currency, it will last for generations.
Yes, but bitcoin is not legal tender unlike money in the monetary systems you described in your post, so its life may actually turn out to be very short. Why should a government which money system lasted for more than a century give in?
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For example I could say that one ocean front villa is worth 10 Ferrari. Now that is obviously my judgement and therefore is subjective. However everybody will have an opinion on this price. Some will say it is to high (villa is worth less Ferrari) and some will say it is to low (villa is worth more Ferrari).
Now what is clear from the above example is that I can only measure value by something which is itself valuable. This should be obvious: something has value can not be measured by something that has no value!
Bitcoin itself has no value. Now you might say that Bitcoin can be transferred cheaply. Well that does not give the unit Bitcoin any value whatsoever. If "dadljf" could be transferred cheaply does that make "dadljf" valuable? Of course not!
As far as economics is concerned, nothing has value in itself and by itself. Value is not established by some inherent quality of the good (intrinsic theory of value, abandoned) or amount of labor required to produce it (labor theory of value, abandoned), but is determined by the importance an individual places on it for the achievement of his ends. The latter refers to the subjective theory of value accepted by most economic schools of today And stop cross-posting...
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Those small islands are almost 1/4 of Japan. According to wikipedia: "Sakhalin is a classic "primary sector of the economy" relying on oil and gas exports, coal mining, forestry, and fishing. Limited quantities of rye, wheat, oats, barley and vegetables are grown, although the growing season averages less than 100 days.[17] Following the collapse of the Soviet Union and economic liberalization, Sakhalin has experienced an oil boom with extensive petroleum exploration and mining by most large oil multinational corporations. The oil and natural gas reserves contain an estimated 14 billion barrels (2.2 km³) of oil and 96 trillion cubic feet (2,700 km³) of gas and are being developed under production-sharing agreement contracts involving international oil companies like ExxonMobil and Shell." Those small islands may be completely worthless as such but he who controls them also controls the La Pérouse Strait which divides the southern part of Sakhalin from the northern part of the Japanese island of Hokkaido...
Both of you got it wrong. Japan has "defacto" agreed that the Sakhalin is a part of Russia. The ongoing dispute is regarding the Southern Kuril islands (on the North-east of Japan, far away from Sakhalin). These islands consists of three main islands (Iturup - 313,900 hectares, Kunashir - 149,000 ha, Shikotan - 22,500 ha) and a few rocks. So what's incorrect about my point exactly? It has been pretty well known (or rather obvious) since the end of the war that Russia grabbed these small islands in order to establish their control over the strait. In fact, Stalin at first was planning to occupy the whole island of Hokkaido Please clarify what I got wrong...
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I don't quite understand what you mean here by the state being involuntary and anarchism being voluntary. If you point is that the minority would walk away somewhere if they disagree with the majority, I don't think this relocation will be by their free will and accord. Actually, they will be coerced to do so by the majority. It happens daily in life even without state and its laws. But exactly the introduction of state in the form of the law allows to break this otherwise circular argument...
Coercion Threat of kidnapping, extortion, force or violence to be performed immediately or in the future Lets say you're at a friend's party, and you don't like the party but you also don't want to leave. Are the party-goers now coercing you to leave? At a friend's party I won't be in my own right by definition, so this example is not worth considering at all in the first place. Whatever answer I may give, I will be either logically wrong (correct answer with false reasoning) or factually wrong (correct logic based on false premises). Choose a better example... Could I expect you throwing some light on what you meant by the state being involuntary and anarchism being voluntary?
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I don't quite understand what you mean here by the state being involuntary and anarchism being voluntary. If you point is that the minority would walk away somewhere if they disagree with the majority, I don't think this relocation will be by their free will and accord. Actually, they will be coerced to do so by the majority. It happens daily in life even without state and its laws. But exactly the introduction of state in the form of the law allows to break this otherwise circular argument...
You are describing panarchism not anarchism. Also most anarchists are pro law, we imagine a society that has plenty of laws. We just imagine that those laws are provided in a competitive marketplace so that they can improve with time for the same reason that microprocessors get faster every year and cars get better gas mileage every year. So if you dont like the laws that you are presently governed by than you dont have to move away, you just change service providers. I just paraphrase what others are saying here. But what you say has also been described somewhere earlier in the thread. What if I just don't want to pick up any of the "law providers"? If I don't choose any, would I be outlawed? If not, then it simply doesn't make any sense to choose any "law provider"...
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Why should I adjust, or rather, why minority should adjust in the first place? If we have to, then it is not much different what state actually does. Are you still missing my point?
No, I understand your point: both anarchism and the state are forms of government. I think we've established this point already. Can you address the point about the state being involuntary and anarchism being voluntary, please? I don't quite understand what you mean here by the state being involuntary and anarchism being voluntary. If you point is that the minority would walk away somewhere if they disagree with the majority, I don't think this relocation will be by their free will and on their accord. Actually, they will be coerced to do so by the majority. It happens daily in life even without state and its laws. But exactly the introduction of state in the form of the law allows to break this otherwise circular argument...
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None of those things have objective value. Water and food have objective value to life. Things with objective value can be phased as a fact. For example I can say that mankind values water, I can not say that mankind values baseball cards or bitcoins.
Actually, read that article from which you quoted, the subjective theory of value does explain it in a simple and coherent way. Or, if you have time, read Carl Menger's Principles of Economics (it is not big), the book which gave rise to that theory... Water as well as air (and anything for that matter), they all have subjective value (if you're drowning the subjective value of water will be negative to you), that book explains such things pretty well...
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Now you seem to be contradicting yourself. At first you said that "either they or I must adjust". Maybe, now you are going to argue that anything you do against your will, you do voluntarily? I always thought it is called coercion. Should I quote the definition of the word you posted earlier or you take a look yourself?
No; if you want to participate in that society, you must adjust. If you must understand programming to create a program, are the developers of programming languages coercing you into learning them? Why should I adjust, or rather, why minority should adjust in the first place? If we have to, then it is not much different from what state actually does. Are you still missing my point?
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I have already explained everything in one of my earlier posts. Also you said it yourself that if my beliefs clash with other people's, either they or I must adjust, so there is still no room for voluntary change if that was your point...
Of course that's voluntary; you don't have to conform if you don't want to, you just gotta figure out how to survive without other people. Nobody is forcing you to do that. What do you believe is a voluntary interaction? And don't tell me there are none; you're participating in one right now. Look, you seem to be contradicting yourself here. At first you said that "either they or you must adjust". Maybe, now you are going to argue that anything you do against your will, you do voluntarily? I always thought it is called coercion when you have to do something without your own accord. Should I quote the definition of the word you posted earlier or you can take a look yourself?
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There is an objective theory of value and it has not been abandoned also there is a reason it is called a theory and not a law. http://mises.org/daily/4907/"The actual process through which subjective valuations lead to objective market prices is complicated. The average person doesn't need to understand it. However, everyone should be aware of the basic principles of modern value theory, as sketched in this article. Precisely because value is subjective, voluntary trades are win-win situations. At the same time, market prices are objective measures of wealth, and they allow firms to calculate whether they are using resources efficiently or not." The theory you are referring to here is correctly called subjective theory of value. And it is accepted by most mainstream schools of economics. Actually, I meant exactly this theory when I wrote that there is no objective value in modern economics... You obviously didnt read the article. Value is subjective to the individual... but objective to the market. What you (they) name here as objective value is called price... I intentionally asked you what you meant by objective value. Your answer was that objective value is "the unit of measure is objectively valuable. Like gold, or joules of work"...
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I mean that the unit of measure is objectively valuable. Like gold, or joules of work.
There is no place for objective value in modern economics in the sense you mean here. The theories claiming otherwise (for example, labor theory of value or intrinsic theory of value) have been abandoned by most economists for not being able to correctly describe real life economic phenomena... There is an objective theory of value and it has not been abandoned also there is a reason it is called a theory and not a law. http://mises.org/daily/4907/"The actual process through which subjective valuations lead to objective market prices is complicated. The average person doesn't need to understand it. However, everyone should be aware of the basic principles of modern value theory, as sketched in this article. Precisely because value is subjective, voluntary trades are win-win situations. At the same time, market prices are objective measures of wealth, and they allow firms to calculate whether they are using resources efficiently or not." The theory you are referring to here is correctly called subjective theory of value. And nowadays it is accepted by most mainstream schools of economics. Actually, I meant exactly this theory when I wrote in reply to your post that there is no objective value in modern economics...
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разметка под закладку фундамента
Так вроде ж договорились, что на обратной стороне Луны будут строить... Я что-то упустил?
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I'm running out of ideas on how to help you understand this fundamental difference. If people hate you enough to not want to interact with you, you have no right to force yourself on them. That's just how society works; you play by the rules or you get shut out.
I have already explained everything in one of my earlier posts. Also, you said it yourself that if my beliefs clash with other people's, either they or I must adjust, so there is still no room for voluntary change if that was your point. When you have to adjust to something against your will, this is coercion under any name...
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I mean that the unit of measure is objectively valuable. Like gold, or joules of work.
There is no place for objective value in modern economics in the sense you mean here. The theories claiming otherwise (for example, labor theory of value or intrinsic theory of value) have been abandoned by most economists for not being able to correctly describe real life economic phenomena...
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Impaler was absolutely wrong about security of Bitcoin adding nothing to its strength as a store of value for rather evident reasons which I have shown (it works the same way as taxes and legalization of money do), but this doesn't make your argument more valid. What you say here is a consequence of the factors that back up Bitcoin, but this is not what gives it strength or backs it up by itself. In fact, I have already explained this in one of my previous posts in this thread...
I've said that an asset needs BOTH security and backing to be a good store-of-value, and BTC has security (of a sort) but no Backing. I'm arguing that no amount of security can compensate for the lack of backing, the relationship is Multiplicative not Additive, a Million x Zero = Zero, you seem to be arguing that if something is just Secure enough that Backing is unnecessary. If we reverse the relationship and hypothesize an asset that's backing is perfect but is impossible to secure from theft, no one would call that asset a good store-of-value. Ok, let's start again. A currency in the gold standard is backed up by gold, right? Gold has some value, but this value is subjective in nature as well as for all other goods. This means that it is not determined by some property of gold (or amount of labor required to produce it, for that matter), but is determined by the importance an individual places on it for the achievement of his aims. Without this subjective valuation shared by the majority of people gold would be worth next to nothing. Now, if you agree that security of Bitcoin has value in the eyes of the individual as it does, you inevitably come with logical necessity to the conclusion that security IS backing up Bitcoin. Actually, anything inherent to a store of value that has subjective value will be backing it up, and the more people share this attitude, the more strength the store of value gets It's a pity really that you went on a path of obfuscating and confusing matters here...
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