Obviously you don't know much about how IRS audits work. If you mine bitcoins and sell bitcoins for dollars and then use those dollars to pay your rent, the IRS doesn't have to know that you mined bitcoins and/or sold bitcoins for dollars. They audit you, ask you how you've been paying the rent without earning any income, and then they ask you to prove it.
If you're making $30,000 a year mining bitcoin, or if you're living like someone who makes $30,000 a year, then maybe you'll get away with it. If you're making $30,000,000 a year mining bitcoin, and living the lifestyle of someone who makes $30,000,000 a year, but you're not reporting any income on your taxes, you will get caught.
What would happen if you tried to tell them the truth, that you mined the coins yourself and then sold them paying taxes only for the real profit you made? Would they take you to court if they don't believe you? Any real life evidence or things have yet to happen somewhere in the future (given the number of new millionaires)? |
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If you had a time machine which would allow you to travel to the future (say, two-three years ahead of now) and saw the Bitcoins were universally accepted and dollar banned (Bitcoin addicts' pipe dream), would you spend your coins instead of dollars in the present?
Yes. Definitely. As soon as I got paid I'd immediately convert all my dollars into bitcoins. And when I had to buy something, I'd try to pay in bitcoins, rather than converting my bitcoins into dollars and then paying in dollars. The less time I have to hold dollars, the better. If I convert my bitcoins into dollars and then my dollars into food, I have to worry about the value of the dollar going down for the period of time I hold dollars. If I convert my bitcoins directly into food, then I eliminate this risk. That's what Gresham's Law is about. You run away from a bad money (dollars) into a good money (bitcoins). If you are paid in dollars, you would then try to get rid of them as soon as possible, either through exchange for things or for bitcoins. So with that knowledge in your head you are first of all spending all your dollars... |
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I don't get either what can be difficult to understand here. If you get an income, you should pay an income tax. If you sale something, you pay taxes from the profits you make. As far as I know, currently no government collects taxes from an income or profit obtained in bitcoins (but can be wrong here).
You are wrong. Gross income is all income from any source derived. 26 USC 61. If you have income obtained in bitcoins, it is taxable just the same as income obtained in any manner whatsoever. Unless there is an exception, income is taxable. There is no exception for income obtained in bitcoins I'm not very familiar with the US tax system, lol... It is pretty clear with buying and selling bitcoins, but what about bitcoins that you mined yourself and then sold them through an exchange? Should you calculate the profit or can get away with taxes by claiming a net loss? Will they ever come after you? |
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Опять проблемы с резервами? BL615259 сутки жду, раньше в 12 часов укладывались. Хотелось бы получить деньги до обеда завтрашнего дня  .... Прикрутите онлайн консультанта к сайту, чтоб таки вопросы можно было на месте выяснять. Скорее всего информация разошлась в народе и перестали справляться с платежами. И я вот тоже уже вторые сутки банковский перевод жду, а денег всё нет и нет, хотя закинул-то практически по минимуму. Ещё сутки платёж повисит и буду требовать скидку. Похоже, перехвалил я этот обменник на свою шею... |
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Those who will not conform in a given society would likely move, as they would find it impossible to interact with those around them. Those who aggress, on the other hand, would likely find themselves on the wrong end of a gun sooner or later. NOT just for "chewing gum" to use the previous example, but rather such things as robbery, rape, attempted murder, etcetera. Actual crimes.
So you are actually in favor of concentration camps and barbed wire. Why in the first place would those who disagree move anywhere if they are in their own right? Moving on "their own accord" when the majority makes the life of the minority unbearable is not much different from forced evictions. That is what is actually meant by "finding it impossible to interact with those around them". The law and the state behind it seem to be by far fairer here. At least they don't tell between whether you like it or not... |
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Once the IRS starts attacking, no one will accept or sell coins without knowing the identity of the counter-party.
The government is sitting back letting the wildwest go on so as to let electronic money become popular. Then they will crack their whip and it will done. There will be no difference between Bitcoin and 666. Everything is on the public ledger. Much worse than cash.
Despite what you say, they weren't able to do anything to Edward Snowden, so I think it is not too late yet. Though I agree that anonymity of Bitcoin is a myth. Was trying to explain this to one of the converts here, but to no avail... |
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And if you mined then sold bitcoin face-to-face, the IRS wouldn't know.
You guys don't think. Someone down the line of the coin's history won't be anonymous, then they are culpable for all activities on the coin unless they can provide the identities of whom they bought from and sold to. This will cascade right back to you the miner. If they don't know your wallet, the information about someone down the chain won't help them. If they do, then they won't need this information either. To track all transactions with that wallet would be enough to corner you, unless you're a miner. So it is all six of one and half a dozen of the other... |
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I think those of you, guys, who deem themselves as anarchists are terribly misusing the term...  Considering what you say here (small isolated settlements, ostracism, communal efforts and all that nonsense) I would rather call you hippies...  Or maybe an anarchist is just an age-worn hippie? Not all anarchists are hippies, but I'm not so sure the reverse is true. For the most part, anarchist support decentralization to it's logical extreme within a social context. I would probably accept the name hippie, but I doubt you'd identify me as such by my appearance. I do use the CND logo a lot - does that count? So now we have hippies in the thread... How long will it take for punks to arrive or would they rather ignore us with contempt? I think punks with their strong anti-establishment views and the promotion of personal freedom would make perfect True Anarchy zealots... Anybody? |
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To your point, I've been selling bitcoin this week and buying gold and silver (am I going to get ridiculed for admitting that on this board?) because I think the price has just gotten nuts (while gold and silver are at or near their points of maximum pessimism).
Absolutely not! I also sold some portion of my coins yesterday (just in time, not at the very top but close to it). So currently I don't care where the price will go, though I think we've topped already, at least for the nearest future... By the way, your feedback on BTC transactions was one of the most valuable in the thread |
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If government already taxes Bitcoin owners, then it was faster than I thought
There has never been a time when the growth in value on a bitcoin is not taxable in the U.S. The law is quite clear that anything you buy and sell at a higher price is taxable, bitcoin is no exception. Of course, the IRS is way behind the curve on this and may be able to do little about taxes. I think it is a good practice to pay capitol gains when converting to $USD. Failure to do so may bite you later. You might have to pay back taxes and fines later that could wipe you out. I think it is so everywhere throughout the world, but could they really trace you down, and what about the case when you mined bitcoins yourself (paid for electricity and bore other costs)? I'm not now talking about Silk Road and all that underground shit, but if you sold your coins at Coinbase, how would they even know in the first place? |
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All this has a very simple explanation without ever offsetting Gresham's Law. In fact, it actually confirms this law. Let's assume for a moment that Gresham's Law is infallible and fully applicable in this case. Really, if the principle behind it has been known since Ancient Greece, then why should it fail right now?
Simply put, Gresham's Law says that one money is better than another. If that's true, this would inevitably mean that people still think dollars (or whatever) are better than bitcoins because they prefer to pay in Bitcoin while withholding their dollars, no other way around. Why would they? Deep inside they don't believe Bitcoin will be a success in the long term and are just trying to make use of an opportunity that Bitcoin high price gives them...
And everything is in strict accordance with Gresham's Law
I guess it comes down to whether you believe bitcoin is a better money than the fiat (which was my underlying assumption - because it's inelastic ) vs what you're saying - that it's not and people are utilizing the higher prices in bitcoin to capture the value by spending it. If you had a time machine which would allow you to travel to the future (say, two-three years ahead of now) and saw the Bitcoins were universally accepted and dollar banned (Bitcoin addicts' pipe dream), would you spend your coins instead of dollars in the present? |
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You may call taxes various vile names as much as you please, but in any case this doesn't prove that government wouldn't be happy and ready to tax Bitcoin owners if there is such an opportunity. I think it is just a matter of time...
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Government already taxes Bitcoin owners. If you think the US government is going to tax Bitcoin owners directly (and not as part of an income tax or a sales tax), well then I'd like to hear how the constitutional requirement of apportionment is going to be dealt with. I don't get either what can be difficult to understand here. If you get an income, you should pay an income tax. If you sale something, you pay taxes from the profits you make. As far as I know, currently no government collects taxes from an income or profit obtained in bitcoins (but can be wrong here). But in any case, you digress from the initial claim that government is not interested in capitalizing on Bitcoin (read pulling money from Bitcoin users)... If government already taxes Bitcoin owners, then it was faster than I thought |
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даже в сбербанке онлайн, если ты выбрал томск, там не будет москвы для оплаты, значит привязано
что-то
Я плачу через ТКС Банк, там не надо вообще выбирать город или регион, просто тупо вводится либо номер телефон, либо номер лицевого счёта. Я сначала тоже не верил, потом на пробу сто рублей закинул, сейчас уже несколько месяцев без проблем оплачиваю... ты через эту ссылку платил? https://7pay.in/ipay/more/to_pay/32Я платил через интернет-банк, клиентом которого являюсь, и отвечал также на вопрос об интернет-банке. Вроде бы должно быть понятно из текста, о чём идёт речь... |
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Taxes are a way that government steals from the most productive in order to give to the least productive. That's not capitalizing, as in using to one's advantage. Just the opposite, in fact. Government is in more debt than anyone.
You may call taxes various vile names as much as you please, but in any case this doesn't prove that government wouldn't be happy and ready to tax Bitcoin owners if there is such an opportunity. I think it is just a matter of time... |
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Then why is the government in so much debt?
Because government can't tax more than people and businesses can earn. Besides that, there is an optimal level of tax rates which maximizes total tax revenues, and in most cases it is far below 50% (welcome Laffer curve)... |
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Yes, it has failed as a currency, and later as an asset backing up a currency. The said doesn't mean that its price dropped as it actually has increased over time with the dollar constantly depreciating. Gold surely didn't fail as a store of value. Personally, I would go for a tighter definition of currency that assigns more significance to it as a means of exchange before anything else...
Well, if that's failure, then hopefully Bitcoin will fail. That said, Bitcoin has a number of advantages over gold when it comes to exchange. It's much more easily divisible, down to a fraction of a penny currently and is theoretically divisible even more should one satoshi become worth more than the current value of one penny. It's much harder to counterfeit (nearly impossible unless SHA256d is seriously broken), and it's much easier to check as valid (anyone can do so on a computer with Internet access as opposed to the techniques needed to prove that your gold bar isn't filled with tungsten). And, of course, as I discussed previously, you can irrevocably transfer it over the Internet in a way which can't be double-spent. The gold now is neither currency nor an asset behind it, so enumerating Bitcoin advantages over gold as a means of exchange sounds really strange these days. Everything would change if you tried to compare Bitcoin against some well-developed fiat currency (say, dollar) or against gold as a store of value... |
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I hope I made my point clear... Not really. You can transfer title to gold over the Internet, but you have to trust that your counterparty actually has possession of the gold, hasn't double-spent the gold, won't double-spend the gold, will actually give you possession to the gold when you demand it, etc.
I don't say it is not possible, but if you buy physical this usually means that you can come and take that gold with you, and as long as you can actually do so, your objections don't make much sense. It is not very far from saying that you shouldn't buy gold because it can just be stolen... |
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даже в сбербанке онлайн, если ты выбрал томск, там не будет москвы для оплаты, значит привязано
что-то
Я плачу через ТКС Банк, там не надо вообще выбирать город или регион, просто тупо вводится либо номер телефон, либо номер лицевого счёта. Я сначала тоже не верил, потом на пробу сто рублей закинул, сейчас уже несколько месяцев без проблем оплачиваю... |
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Имхо, тема и идея глупая.
Генераторы говноидей, как правило, даже близко не представляют как это все технически и юридически реализовывать.
А еще проблема клиентов долбоебов, которые потеряют свои кошельки (или уведут их у них), а они на банки гонят потом, и возврат требуют.
Нах, нах.
Если у вас есть сомнения по поводу технической и юридической возможности реализации, то есть же обменники, например, btc-trade.ru (я с ними никак не аффилирован, если что), представители которого заявляют, что с юридической стороны у них всё безупречно. Если сомневаетесь, то можете спросить в их теме на этом форуме... Но в принципе я согласен про клиентов-недоработков, однако не обусловлена ли эта проблема больше самим Биткоином? |
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This is what you're missing: there's a difference between obeying a law willingly, and obeying a law unwillingly. The anarchist society does not require you to observe any law unwillingly; the state, however, does. This can only occur if you're not in control of law whatsoever. When you say have to obey the accepted law, you're referring to the state; otherwise, if you agreed on that law, you wouldn't have to follow it; instead, you should obey the accepted law, which infers to anarchism.
Now I have to ask you the same question that I asked here and which was left unanswered. That is, what are we going to do with those people who did not agree on the laws in the first place? Should they give in to the majority or we'd better send them to concentration camps for subsequent extermination? |
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