Received my Titan Coin today. Very nice. The coin is about 3.3 cm in diameter so it looks a bit smaller then in the photo. (The Casascius silver bitcoin is about 3.8mc in diameter) Came in a small priority mail box with a "Certificate of Authenticity" and Instructions on how to "activate" the coin. I was able to scan the qr code on the back of the coin with my mobile. On the web-form I had to enter: Delivery Confirmation Code received on the letter with the coin. Email confirmation Number received in the email they sent with shipping notification Entered My Email Entered My passwordWhen I submitted the form I received an email to a link to verify the registration and fund the coin. The coin also came in a little black pouch. Nice Job Titain. Cool unboxing! I'll have our customer service dept. send you something as a thank you.
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EDIT: This thread is intended for brainstorming about new ways to do Physical bitcoins. I've started a separate thread for questions about http://www.TitanBtc.com in the Marketplace section. -- Physical bitcoins are absolutely the BEST way to introduce people to the concept of bitcoins. I've personally recruited dozens, if not hundreds, of people to the bitcoin community and by far the most effective tool in winning someone over is simply handing them a physical coin. There's just no replacement for feeling the weight of bitcoin in your hand. However, after years of UI/UX design for web and product launches, I know that there's no such thing as "too simple". People need to be led gently down a path to understanding and the current generation of physical bitcoins isn't quite cutting it. Physical bitcoins, both paper and coin, have the potential to be much more than novelty or collectible. To realize that potential, I'm convinced that this community needs to have physical bitcoins that: 1. Look and feel like real currency 2. Have ZERO barriers to entry for newcomers 3. Require ZERO pre-existing knowledge of bitcoins to acquire, use and enjoy, and 4. Are inherently secure and impossible to counterfeit. (Physical theft is always a danger, but that's a separate conversation.) 5. Seamlessly convert to bitcoins in your wallet with a minimum of technical knowledge required. It's a tall order, but it's an important one to fill. Physical bitcoins serve as a valuable extension to cryptocurrencies and they're a vital bridge to the many people who have yet to embrace the idea of bitcoins. Effectively reaching this group may allow cryptocurrencies to cross the chasm that exists between early adopters and the mainstream user. If you have investments in bitcoin, this jump to the mainstream is what reduces risk and increases the return on your investment. If you believe in the principals behind bitcoin, this jump to the mainstream is what opens people's eyes and brings about real, revolutionary change in our financial system. Doug Feigelson, Mike Caldwell, Rob Kohr and others have shown us what is possible. Thank you sincerely. Let's build on their contributions and move forward. What's next? What does this next generation of physical bitcoins look like and how is it technically executed? I'm looking for feedback from this community and I'm also looking people that are ready to design it and build it as I'm putting my personal/business resources behind this project. How about Bitcoin stickers? Are you thinking of a sticker that has a private key built in, or something more high tech like an NFC chip? I'm interested.
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Also, what does the hologram for the PK ones look like? Is it the same?
The hologram for the PK coins looks the same, yes. The next round of holograms we buy will have the first bits as the COIN ID number as well.
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Update: Coins with private keys included (like Casascius) are now available as an option on the website. For those that ordered them via PM, your orders are shipping out today or tomorrow morning. http://www.titanbtc.com/product/titan-one/I don't recommend these if you intend to resell due to the ease of counterfeiting/hacking, but to each his own. Wait it's easy to fake the hologram or peel it and restick? Is that what you're saying? I'm confused. The casascius coins, to my knowledge, are pretty good at preventing that sort of thing. I might buy a few just for fun - thanks! http://codinginmysleep.com/casascius-physical-bitcoins-cracked-at-defcon/Very interesting - thanks for the link! Perhaps this has already been addressed, but do the Titan coins not have these issues, or is 2-factor their main solution to this? Two factor authentication of some type is the ONLY solution to the problem of sticker hacking in my opinion. We can do better in terms of protecting the hologram from hacking (and I think some members of the community are working on that) but in my opinion, even if you believe the sticker is secure and un-hackable, a hologram isn't that difficult to counterfeit anymore. You just can't know for sure if a "private key included" coin holds its value until you sweep that value into a wallet (unless you assembled the coin yourself and it has never left your sight). We're working towards a decentralized 2FA system that tracks the coin's current owner and doesn't require a central database. I'd love to hear other ideas on creative ways to leverage the network for 2FA.
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Update: For those paying direct with bitcoins, the price has dropped to 1.39BTC.
Thanks.
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Walter White would be proud.
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UPDATE: For those paying in bitcoins directly, the price has dropped to 1.39 BTC
Thanks
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Update: Coins with private keys included (like Casascius) are now available as an option on the website. For those that ordered them via PM, your orders are shipping out today or tomorrow morning. http://www.titanbtc.com/product/titan-one/I don't recommend these if you intend to resell due to the ease of counterfeiting/hacking, but to each his own.
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Couple of questions, forgive me if they are answered but I can't see it: 1. Can one pay in bitcoin?
2. Can the ownership of the physical bitcoins be transferred from owner to owner without needing to redeem the coin? I.e. can I sell my Titan Bitcoins on in a few years time to another owner? 3. Is there a list of which coins from the current batch(es) are in circulation? You've sold some on eBay but I was curious about how many have now sold... Between private sales and public ones, we have sent around 210 coins out the door. Many of the early coins went to investors that asked me to put them up on eBay (they wanted a quick exit and doubled their money by doing so). The pace of sales looks like it will be speeding up quickly though, as we roll out promotions on other sites and in a few local stores. I don't expect that the production run of 10,000 will last through the end of the year. We don't currently publish a public list of the coins in circulation, but I'll look into setting that up.
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Update: Coins with private keys included (same as Casascius) are now available for those that want them. For those that bought via PM, your coins are shipping out either today or tomorrow morning and you'll get an email when its marked as shipped in our system. http://www.titanbtc.com/product/titan-one/Thanks! P.S. I don't recommend coins with private keys if you intend to resell, due to the ease of counterfeiting/hacking, but you wanted them so here they are...
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I bought one. Received confirmation of shipment. Waiting for delivery...
I just bought as well. The price is far less than an hour of Lawyer time. Well, I think I got the better end of this deal. That's very valuable info. I'll definitely be hiring YOU if I have to defend our business model.
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If you are really worried about it. There are a number of (very small) countries that will authorize it as a currency of their country for a small fee. Then you are authorized to be making a national currency. I've contemplated this route. Many others have taken it, but I prefer to remain producing non-governmental private pieces at this time.
I am delighted when more folks enter "the business". Especially folks with good ethics, and attention to quality. I am happy to help where I can
AND, since you asked nicely....this advice cost quite a lot of legal time, so feel welcome to tip if you like. It will go into my legal defense fund. If "they" are going to be going after anyone, it will likely be me first and winning with a well funded defense will set a good precedent.
:
The origin of the prohibition against coin “of original design” is explained in the Annual Report of the Director of the Mint for 1871, reprinted in the Annual Report of the Secretary of the Treasury for 1871, Report on Finances #9 (p205-214). It provides (in brief) for the punishment of any who make or pass counterfeit coins in any metal or alloy, in the resemblance of those of the United States or of foreign countries; or who make or pass coins of "original design" for the purpose of money. ... [G]reat quantities of original design were issued more than thirty years ago... small pieces designated as “half dollars” and “quarter dollars,” with some claim to be considered gold coins, as they really contain as much of that metal as is to be found in common jewelry. The pieces which began to be issued in San Francisco, in 1859, and perhaps have been coined more recently, may not have been ... pushed into circulation, but may rather have served as playpieces or curiosities. However, they were sold at their pretended value, while in fact the half dollar, weighing six grains on an average, and about 423-thousandths fine, was worth eleven cents; the quarter dollar nearly in the same proportion, some pieces being actually worth six cents. No doubt they have been imposed upon ignorant persons as real money. Their shapes were various, some octagonal, some circular.
Case law more than a century old sustains this view:
In U.S. v Bogart, 9 Ben. 314, 24 F.Cas. 1185, 24 Int.Rev.Rec. 46, No. 14,617 (N.D.N.Y. 1878), the Court explained, “One of the Rules applicable to the offence of counterfeiting is, that the resemblance of the spurious to the genuine coin must be such as that it might deceive a person using ordinary caution, and a conviction cannot be had for uttering pieces of metal which are not in the likeness or similitude of genuine coins.” (California gold).1 (These pieces deceive no one).
Another case, U.S. v Hopkins, 26 Fed. 443 (D.C. 1885), supplemented this by saying “counterfeit coin is one made in imitation of some genuine coin. It is not necessary that the resemblance should be exact in all respects. The resemblance is sufficient if the coins are so far alike that the counterfeit coin is calculated to deceive a person exercising ordinary caution and observation in the usual transactions of business, though the counterfeit would not deceive a person who was expert or has particular experience in such matters. This rule has been more fully applied in cases of written or printed instruments which are used in ordinary business transactions, as prudent men are presumed to exercise reasonable caution in accepting instruments which are evidences of contracts and obligations.” Id., at 443-444. (Emphasis added). (They don’t look like an American coin; don’t have the feel of an American coin and don’t act as a coin does either on first use, or subsequent use).
And in yet another case, U.S. v Hargrave, 26 F.Cas. 164 (D.C. N.D. Ohio 1872), the indictment contained seven counts, four of which were framed under the act of March 3, 1825 (4 Stat. 121), and three under the act of June 8, 1864 (13 Stat. 120). The main question was whether the spurious coin in question came under either act. “It was claimed by the prosecution that it came under both, that is: First, that it was in the similitude of the genuine coin; second, that if considered of ‘original design,’ it was within the later act above cited; and, third, that the question was, not whether it would deceive a person of ordinary skill and caution, but whether it was capable of, and designed to be used for deceiving the incautious and unskillful”. These (a) deceived no one; (b) would not deceive the incautious or unskillful, and (c) would not deceive a person of ordinary skill and caution.
I'm happy to tip for that work. Was there any case history from the 20th or 21st century?
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I don't know about you guys, but the members of the wealthy elite that I know are extremely smart, socially well-connected and they aren't mired in any particular mode of thinking in terms of investments. They pay people to look for economic trends that will make them even more wealthy.
It's a nice sentiment that "the underdog" may be displacing "old wealth", but from where I'm standing, they'll be coming to join the party soon enough. Institutional investors will be happy to jump on the bitcoin bandwagon as soon as they view the risks to be acceptable. These people stay wealthy because their financial advisers (who are watching bitcoin like hawks) are paid to keep it that way.
One thing is for sure, though. This community has definitely put a dent in the world.
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"Current Money" =/= "Currency" Do your own research. "Current Money" is national, government-made coin. Titan is not violating this arcane US anti-counterfeiting law any more than the Franklin Mint is. You may go FUD yourself now. you suck beyond belief Don't be mad just because information dispels fear. Titan is looking to make something new, to be creative. Your attempt to instill fear and stifle this creativity with nonsensical laws written in the 19th century that have only a handful of cases based on them is shameful. I'm sure you were just seeking to inform and enlighten us all with this link, but it just has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this thread. wtf is wrong with you? this is your business, issuing "new liberty 'dollars'": http://newlibertydollar.com/this is someone who went to jail for "liberty 'dollars'": http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704425804576220383673608952you're either trying to make yourself belief the law doesnt exist so you can continue being a criminal without feeling guilty, or found some brilliant way to get around it. I'll bet on the 1st. Do you make a career out of being wrong? Bernard von Nothaus is not in jail. He has never been in prison. The misapplication of that law to his activities is not decided law. The law exists. It was written to prevent the gold miners in the California gold rush from making things that looked like government issued coins that were not properly adhering to the weights and measures, anti-counterfeiting. It has absolutely nothing to do with either my, nor Nothaus nor Titan's activities, despite the nonsense put forward by the political prosecution of Nothaus for his support of Ron Paul. Please keep up this line of nonsense. People might care to learn the truth and I, for one, am happy to help them out. you need to supply sources of all your claims Or do I? I am perfectly OK with not convincing you of anything. People that seek the truth may find it easily. There are enough that already know. If you are slower to learn than others, that is not my burden to bear, its yours. In the mean time we are just bumping this thread.... bumpity bump bump If our OP considers this all off-topic, am happy to take it elsewhere. well with that response i'll just close this at the same point where we started: you suck beyond belief I appreciate a good debate. This IS pertinent to the field of physical bitcoins, so I'll chip in my two cents. Hoepfully no one has hurt feelings here, as I'm sure the intention is to make the truth on this issue clear. It looks like the crux of this section of U.S. law is aimed at the act of counterfeiting, either foreign or domestic currency. The reference to foreign current money production appears to be aimed at complying with a set of global anti-counterfeiting laws. Without that sort of clause on the books, it might be difficult for a country like China to prosecute someone in the U.S. who was counterfeiting yuan. However, the phrase "except as authorized by law" is vitally important. There are a number of private mints in both the U.S. and China that produce national currency for other countries. For example, I know for certain that the Phillipines outsources some of its currency production to a mint that operates in the U.S. The point is that, it IS illegal to make currency in the U.S. UNLESS you're authorized to do so by the government that issues that currency. The question then becomes, who authorizes the issuing of a decentralized currency that is not tied to any one government? I think, for the moment, the answer is "no one". Thoughts?
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How much per coin price?
who test this coins in practic? any feedbacks please
i interest this
It's 1.45 BTC right now. You can pay with fiat from our site. http://www.titanbtc.com/product/titan-one/I know of a few members on the forums that have bought and redeemed them. Anyone want to share your experience?
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if you send me one of these i will make a video to determine if my cat prefers these over cass coins
Does the cat have good taste? You're going to have be OK with a coin that smells strongly of tuna if this is how it's going to be. yes he is an excellent cat. Smelling strongly of tuna is fine, however the other coin might also smell of tuna from last years unrelated tuna salad incident I just ordered some catnip off of Amazon to give us the edge. We'll be in touch.
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We think we've got a good method of clearing any temporary data from the cache on our printers, but I won't hesitate to say that the process can be improved and I welcome any input on how we could make it better.
don't forget to destroy the drum roller I considered burning down our offices and relocating after each production run, but after running the cost-benefit analysis...we decided against it.
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if you send me one of these i will make a video to determine if my cat prefers these over cass coins
Does the cat have good taste? You're going to have be OK with a coin that smells strongly of tuna if this is how it's going to be.
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Update: We'll be offering coins with the private key included early next week. A few of you have PM'ed me about quantity discounts. We're talking to a few resellers currently. If you want to be reseller, we'll make a discount available for you. The best way to move forward with that is to PM me or email me at Tim@titanbtc.com.
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We're pretty confident that we can keep the website open for many years, even if the company that runs it went under tomorrow. We've got redundant server systems with prepaid hosting and some other tricks.
Not good enough. Many people (like me) got into bitcoin precisely because they want to eliminate counter party risk. A coin like this is something I might give to my children some day. Assuming TitanBTC will still be around in 25+ years from now would be foolish. With that being said, I totally agree that some people aren't going to be comfortable relying on our website being around. For people that choose not to take us up on the 2-factor authentication service we're providing, we'll be rolling out coins with private keys included underneath the hologram next week. These coins will work just like any other physical bitcoin (with all the same vulnerabilities) and we'll gently recommend that people don't resell them, but I'm happy to be flexible with what this community is looking for.
That sounds good. But how do I know a copy of the private key is not stored at TitanBTC where it was created? Or if it was securely generated using a true random number generator? I'm not sure if this is possible but what I would like to see is some kind of kit. E.g. a coin where I can inject my own private key and seal it with a secure hologram. (Similar to a paper wallet kit). But I guess it wouldn't be a TitanBTC anymore at that point. It would be a coin wallet. I LOVE the spirit of a coin "kit" and I think well be able to make that happen in the near future with what we're working on. It's a more technical hurdle than we originally anticipated. We released this version of the coins to help augment the investor dollars that we're using to innovate in this space. I honestly haven't found a good way to answer the question of "how do I know TitanBTC isn't keeping a copy of the private key". A lot of people asked the same questions of Mike Caldwell early on and I think it will just take time for us to prove our competence and trustworthiness to the community. In short, the computers that generate those keys are offline. We're using a DB of random numbers generated from an atmospheric noise variable, similar to what you'll get from random.org. We purge the page files on the hard drives in those computers on a scheduled basis to make sure there's no lingering data signatures. We think we've got a good method of clearing any temporary data from the cache on our printers, but I won't hesitate to say that the process can be improved and I welcome any input on how we could make it better. I've reached out to Mike, but have yet to connect with him. He may be thinking we're competition. I hope not. The bottom line is that I don't want to rush that period of "getting to know us" because its important that the community rejects bad ideas and scammers. In fact, I really appreciate how fiercely this community defends it ideologies. This thread was meant to help my team explore new ideas as we try to perfect the system for physical bitcoins once and for all. Thank you sincerely for the feedback.
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