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I thought it has always been the case where the person with cash wanting to buy bitcoins hand over the money first, then seller transfers the btcs right in front of buyer (with a couple of minutes of waiting time) and when it's done, shake hands(optional) and part ways?
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what's this? another scam? too little details
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Announcement of Commencement of Bankruptcy Proceedings: https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20140424_announce_qa_en.pdfQ. What is expected to happen under the bankruptcy proceedings?
A. The bankruptcy trustee will implement the bankruptcy proceedings, in which the assets of
the bankrupt entity will be managed and converted into cash, the investigation of the claims,
etc. will be conducted, and if funds for a distribution are secured, the liquidating distribution
will be made.
BTC will be sold for Cash, possibly via Auction or Tender, in lots. Abundance of cheap coins, I welcome you wholeheartedly  YOU BOLDED THE WRONG WORDS. If the 200k coins are Gox assets, then Gox is not insolvent but actually +$40mil over liabilities. If the 200k coins are actually CUSTOMER assets, then they cannot be liquidated to pay Goxs debts, because they still belong to the customers. Gox is holding them for their customers, but does not OWN the coins. This is like saying the money you put in the bank does not belong to the bank but belongs to you. Ethically this is right and is what we're led to believe, but when banks can freeze your money, or you need to tell them a reason why you're withdrawing such amount it doesn't really feel like you own that money, know I mean? |
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it's stabilizing. the next event trigger could be the liquidation of gox's 200k bitcoins. i'd say down, then slowly crawling up
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If you believe that 99% would not buy bitcoin when they receive their disbursement from the liquidation, then do you also believe that 99% would have sold the bitcoins had they received the disbursement in bitcoin rather than fiat? Selling your bitcoins is another thing. But once gain buying Bitcoins for the cash is entirely different. I know 3-4 people who have lost money in Mt Gox (I myself lost BTC0.001). All of them are distraught and have lost their interest in Bitcoins. Bad for them, they decided to keep all their coins in an exchange. Most of them were active in the crypto-scene for almost 2 years. But now, they have quit. I have tried to persuade them to collect BTCs once again. Know what? They are asking me, Bitcoin scams are happening every now and then. Most of the Bitcoiners refuse to do anything against it (freezing the stolen coins.etc), then why should they trust in crypto anymore? I myself has lost 80% of my coins in BTCT.co. If I lose my remaining 20%, then I'll also quit dealing with BTCs.  The question of whether or not they trust cryptos is irrelevant. Like it or not, cryptos, like the internet, once invented, is here to stay. Cryptos in itself is a trustless system after all, so it's kinda an oxymoron as well. Look, all of these so called 'scams' are due to human actions. By blaming Bitcoin it's like, you're not careful with your money you blame the money scamming you, that's just how ridiculous it sounds. |
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its gh/s , and its not rippoff its dirrectly from the company price, from china. and i buyd from them befor.
but is it good investemnt ? when i do bitcoin calculator it says i will get
per Month 10.95336209 BTC $5,619.95
so afther one month i should earn back my invest ?
Link to miner? Who's the seller and what's the company? No 5TH/s miner costs just $6000. Post the info here, so we can call out the scammer. By the way 5TH/s will not get you 11 BTC in one month, closer to 2 months depending on network hashrate and difficulty increases: https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/calculatorEven that is a damned good roi rate, 2 months is. But as per last post he got the pricing wrong, so the old mantra still stands "if it's too good to be true, it probably is" |
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Keep in mind that without miners - crypto dies.
We NEED miners.
I say spend your money ALL on mining gear.
Just buy the right stuff.
SO MUCH out there is over priced and ridiculous.
If you find the RIGHT gear (and know when to move it and upgrade) then you will be fine.
Don't listen to this guy. He has a limited amount of knowledge and understanding. Investing everything in mining will likely never even ROI. Yes, don't listen to the people telling you to mine. Listen to the people telling you NOT to mine *checks to see those ants are running* Seriously, leave the mining to those already invested. We miners don't need difficulty to go up anymore than it already is, every newcomer miner that joins in further decrease the amount of bitcoins mined, it's a lose-lose scenario |
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It will be here to stay IMHO. There's too much invested plus it having the 'first mover' advantage. Rather than dying, it will be improved. In the world of cryptos, everything is based pretty much on Bitcoin, so if it dies so would the others.
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Miners will continue to mine, even at a loss. It's hard to explain, it's like once you start you can't stop, at least, not before making back roi. I myself am still looking to at least another 3-4 months on before I can breakeven, only then whatever I mine after is profit. Fat chance that I'm shutting down my miners until I get my roi, but what else can I do, already bought into it.
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Just like before GUI existed, or before companies like Apple that made computers user-friendly, Bitcoin now is like the first few years of personal computing where everything was run in command line. You NEEDED to be technically savvy to use computers, but today even grandmas and toddlers can use a computer, but in a form today that is unrecognizable from when they first came out. It will happen to Bitoin as well, given time. The problem is, we can't force people to understand how bitcoin works if they just don't get it. Majority of normal everyday people don't even know how to setup the internet, let alone understanding how a peer-to-peer trustless encryption-based system which can and does have value to be used as money, works. And sometimes, people don't need to know all the underlying technical mumbo-jumbo how a thing works, they just need to be taught how to use it.
You know, from my personal experience, the more enthusiastic I am when talking about Bitcoin, explaining why it so revolutionary and all that, the more people are skeptical of Bitcoin, or maybe just of me. I think we shouldn't be too concerned with getting people on board but instead keep pushing the agenda of Bitcoin in our own capacity, those who can do the infrastructure, build it, those who can provide services or goods for bitcoins, do it. We need to cater to Bitcoiners first, then, the masses will slowly follow.
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Using money to make more money?
This is a left over notion from the credit based economy in which the presence of inflation biases every aspect of our economic decision making. With fiat, one must use money because it will certainly be worth less in the future. Notably, you can lend it out and gain both principal and interest back. One could buy an income producing asset and realize a stream of income that will likely sum to more than the original cost.
In the Bitcoin Economy, these biases are the opposite of what one should do. Deflation is weird and we must wrap our minds around what it means. For starters, lending and credit do not work in the Bitcoin Economy. The rate of deflation for the near future is greater than the investment return that one could gain. This is obvious when examining the repeated failure of bitcoin-denominated securities.
Forget about the idea of you making money. In the Bitcoin economy, only mining pools make money. Rather, you earn money. Your currency increases in value simply by holding on to it.
Bitcoin is for saving and prudent spending upon necessities. This guideline applies to enterprises as well as individuals. Let me recast a common economic activity in Bitcoin terms to illustrate the point.
Bitcoin Household Mortgages - Not.
There are no mortgages nor long term lending in the Bitcoin Economy. Not now, probably not ever. Buy now and pay later has never really been a good idea. In the economy we are working towards, a substantial asset, whether a necessity or income-producing, is purchased on installments. You get the title for your home in exchange for a good faith promise to make periodic payments for a contracted duration of time. The amount of the payments decreases with the deflation rate, or is otherwise linked with your ability to pay. If you miss your payments, the property or collateral reverts to the seller, less the adjusted equity you have paid in.
No debt, no banks, no problems.
We must discard what we previously know about currency when it comes to Bitcoin. Any currency right now has inflationary elements, simply because the supply is not limited. With Bitcoin however, the supply is limited hence it's deflationary. We've never had any sort of currency that is deflationary in nature. Gold perhaps was once currency, but now no longer, so we're so used to a currency that's inflationary in nature, that we really do not know how's a currency like if it's deflationary. Imagine if our currency is deflationary, that every dollar would be worth more tomorrow than today, how would we manage our money? The very opposite of what we're doing today: spend |
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Really, I don't know what's the intended purpose of the U1. The S1 though, is actually the best ASIC out there. They're affordable, scalable, efficient for 55nm, durable and in stock.
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has anybody sent opec an email and asked them if they're willing to accept bitcoins for oil? i can just imagine the all the excitement this would cause if they said yes.
I hope to see that one day. that will concretely mark end of fiat and the recognition of crytptocurrency |
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Thanks for your responses. I still fear that the Japanese Bankruptcy Court can do whatever it wants to do with the 200,000 BTC it controls. In other words, they could sell them and return the proceeds to creditors or return the BTC to its creditors, pro rata. If the Court succeeded in selling the 200,000 coins, it would brutalize BTC's price. Why is this not a real possibility? I'm not trolling for cheap coins, (I'm already all in at a average cost of approx. $495! Plus, I can't control the Court's decision!) I'm just very curious about pressing BTC matters that could impact us all.
You seriously think the bankruptcy court is going to dump 200,000 coins on the open market to achieve a best sale price? Perhaps you should apply for a job at the CFTC. And what makes you so sure they won't? Look, as far as the Japanese are concerned, they might just look at Bitcoin like any other asset, they ask 'what do I do with this', then the reply goes 'sell it' then they said "ok do it for me" and some person in charge just make sure he gets to convert those 'assets' to fiat and his job is done, maybe with "ok i'll take those bitcoins for a 100 yen" John.... |
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No one will get any btc back.
Since the btc can't be separately identified (Similar to oil in an oil tanker owned by many 'customers' etc Google 'retention of title'), any btc held will be classed as an asset and auctioned off.
The 1st hand to get paid is that of the liquidator. They will spend thousands of man hours investigating and reporting etc etc at high hourly rates and eat up most/all of the assets.
You guys need to remember the theory of an insolvency case and the actual practice are two very different things.
The theory goes an independent qualified person takes over to secure any assets, realize those assets, and pay out creditors under a prescribed priority scale.
In practice, any assets realized are taken by the insolvency practitioner as the 1st one on that priority scale. They do work to eat up those funds. They stop work once there is no more funds. Funds are rarely paid back to unsecured creditors.
Well then, that's the worst possible outcome - being business as usual, following usual protocol to just liquidate everything and the liquidators get a fair chunk, the buyers of below-market-price btcs getting a great deal, the users get nothing. I do hope the Japanese government is not that naive |
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A liquidator cannot buy BTC since his job is to pay all fiat debts. BTC isn't a currency in many countries.
So a BTC debt possibly has a lower (or zero) priority when liquidating.
Owning a BTC in Gox would be like having bought a product and payed upfront, you simply will never receive the product or your money.
Except that this 'product' also has the same characteristics that of a currency. It's fungible, has a price value and accepted by vendors in exchange for services and goods. They (the liquidators) will still need to find a way to deal with these 'product' that's worth about a hundred million dollars at least. The fact that BTC is not officially recognized as a currency may be the big stumbling block for the legislators. Because it's not recognized as a currency, they can't redistribute those btc back as btc, they need to liquidate those btc to fiat, and only then can compensation take place, in the form of fiat as defined in bankruptcy laws. You always get a fire sale whenever a company goes down, the liquidators would want to as quickly as possible liquidate any assets they're able to get their hands on to pay back creditors. This whole fiasco is unprecedented where there hasn't been any legal provision written yet to tell legislators what to do with this 'product'. What follows should be interesting, how the Japanese will handle this. |
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It's a common mistake to calculate mining based on the current price. When I was mining a few btcs a day, the price then was still about the same as I am mining at 0.01% of a btc now. Difficulty goes linearly with hashing power. If it's more difficult to mine now it's because there are more people mining than before, not because of the design of Bitcoin trying to make it more difficult. It's either you're in this race to keep up or win, or you opt out and buy instead, and now it's never been a better time compared to a few months back.
oh and please, stay away from butterfly labs.
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The reason the hash rate increases like that is because of moors law, which is constant and exponential
.
Precisely, and I don't understand the constant part. Why would it be constant? There need to be people/entities whom will buy and install miner hardware regardless of the current price. So therefore my question. Do the miners know something the rest don't know? Why would they mine bitcoin if the price is decreasing? Miners are a magnanimous lot that they don't mind paying for the expenses to make it possible for people who don't/can't/won't mine to be able to acquire Bitcoins for fiat. Miners are what keeps Bitcoin going, without miners, there'd be no Bitcoin. Respect the miners. |
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can't agree more my dear freedom fighters and intellectual elite friends. but one day, that's my promise, these bastards who dare to question bitcoin and our savior satoshi fuckimoto, i promise they will pay the bill. we'll hunt them down one by one and i swear to satoshi fukushima, auschwitz will look like a summer camp to them once we are finished with them.
best, we start already now by collecting names and documenting these cases of anti-bitcoinism. as our savior satoshi ayuhara once said: "war is peace. freedom is slavery. ignorance is strength."
I love Bitcoin detractors. I know, I know, it's a bit sadistic of me to take glee in people on the losing end, but what can you do, there are always more dumb people than intelligent ones |
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Everybody says same thing. " We know bitcoin system. "
If you know the system of bitcoin why don't you fix mtgox problem? Where is 850.000 bitcoins?
Why bitcoin value depens on buy and sell orders? Was bitcoin depends on difficulty? Why bitcoin need buyers?
Come on guys face to real!
“If you don’t believe me or don’t get it, I don’t have time to try to convince you, sorry.” - Satoshi Nakamoto https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=532.msg6306#msg6306 |
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