I don't see what needs to be moderated. Sure there are a lot of unpopular opinions and attitudes but, honestly, what will be gained by revoking these people of their voices? Is that really ethical?
I'm all for free speech, but I'm also a big fan of "time and place" and if folks can't be reasonable about choosing time and place, mods are there to choose it for them. For example, I'd rather not browse the forum at work and find very NSFW pics of a newly-bitcoin-tattooed woman on my screen. Not that I'm against nudity or anything, there are plenty of NSFW pics on my hard drive at home, but NSFW without a warning is NOT cool. Isn't it too soon to reach out to the general public? C'mon, most miners still treat bitcoin as a commodity, destined for $billions. Oh, I get it... We're witnessing a speculation play here. Buy, Buy, Buy! LOL Perhaps the coverage of bitcoin by CNN Money had something to do with the decision? |
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I don't see what needs to be moderated. Sure there are a lot of unpopular opinions and attitudes but, honestly, what will be gained by revoking these people of their voices? Is that really ethical?
I'm all for free speech, but I'm also a big fan of "time and place" and if folks can't be reasonable about choosing time and place, mods are there to choose it for them. For example, I'd rather not browse the forum at work and find very NSFW pics of a newly-bitcoin-tattooed woman on my screen. Not that I'm against nudity or anything, there are plenty of NSFW pics on my hard drive at home, but NSFW without a warning is NOT cool. Isn't it too soon to reach out to the general public? C'mon, most miners still treat bitcoin as a commodity, destined for $billions. |
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I think the idea of the main page is to inform newbies that don't know anything about bitcoin - we used to be part of that. Between the "RALLY!!!" vs "CRASH!!!" spam and the draconian newbie whitelisting rules we don't really fulfill that obligation any more...
Then who/what does fulfill that obligation?... Clearly not a search engine. Why not just remove the newbie restrictions and create a new category (call it "For first time visitors") that's heavily moderated by seasoned bitcoiners to make sure that newbies receive a proper introduction to bitcoin. Problem solved. |
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If you have been around stocks and currency trading you will know these things come in waves. Things go way way up and they peak, they then sell at that peak and the wave goes down. Right now, people are selling and it will stay like this for a month or less and then it will pick backup. People who don't understand get scared and sell and those smart kiddies wait and hold on to it and the price will spike back up. The world is not ending, bitcoin is following the norm, stop worrying.
i'll start picking backup at about 6 or 7. The only time this would all fail is if people sell and then walk away and not come back.
Apparently, you've missed my point: the bitcoin network is a state-of-the-art general ledger (one giant, digital bookkeeping notebook with 2,100,000,000,000,000 potential credit/debit rows). Bitcoins (and their fractions) are those very rows, and nothing more. So, it does not matter whether one uses 1BTC or 0.00000001BTC to move around $100 worth of value between the parties involved, a bitcoin, in and of itself, has no inherent price other than what we pay miners for processing every credit/debit entry. Now, it's up to the bitcoin miners and users to decide how many of those credit/debit rows to make available for all transactions. The sooner everyone realizes that little fact, the faster we can put "bitcoin is a commodity" idea behind us. But we won't, it's traded as such and most people here treat it as such. We are human and we like to put a value on it. I never said you were wrong, I'm just stating that there is no reason to panic or flip out over a sale. A game is a game, right? Well, enjoy the swings then... CNN Money to the rescue! |
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If you have been around stocks and currency trading you will know these things come in waves. Things go way way up and they peak, they then sell at that peak and the wave goes down. Right now, people are selling and it will stay like this for a month or less and then it will pick backup. People who don't understand get scared and sell and those smart kiddies wait and hold on to it and the price will spike back up. The world is not ending, bitcoin is following the norm, stop worrying.
i'll start picking backup at about 6 or 7. The only time this would all fail is if people sell and then walk away and not come back.
Apparently, you've missed my point: the bitcoin network is a state-of-the-art general ledger (one giant, digital bookkeeping notebook with 2,100,000,000,000,000 potential credit/debit rows). Bitcoins (and their fractions) are those very rows, and nothing more. So, it does not matter whether one uses 1BTC or 0.00000001BTC to move around $100 worth of value between the parties involved, a bitcoin, in and of itself, has no inherent price other than what we pay miners for processing every credit/debit entry. Now, it's up to the bitcoin miners and users to decide how many of those credit/debit rows to make available for all transactions. The sooner everyone realizes that little fact, the faster we can put "bitcoin is a commodity" idea behind us. |
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the more chances bitcoin has of becoming the de facto global currency.
Cows jumping over the moon will happen before bitcoin becomes the "de facto world currency". Not "world currency" -- only a "global currency". I wasn't saying that world governments would replace their currencies with bitcoin. I misquoted you and all fixed. Though I really don't see a big (if any) difference between the two words. Then what do you see as the main problem with bitcoin -- why can't you see it becoming the de facto global currency? |
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the more chances bitcoin has of becoming the de facto global currency.
Cows jumping over the moon will happen before bitcoin becomes the "de facto world currency". Not "world currency" -- only a "global currency". I wasn't saying that world governments would replace their currencies with bitcoin. |
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Not to burst anyone’s bubble or anything, may I just point out a simple fact that the bitcoin network (specifically, the block chain) is just a giant general ledger (a.k.a. a bookkeeping tool) in which bitcoins and their fractions represent credit/debit entries, and nothing more. It’s time everyone starts treating it as such. The sooner it happens, the more chances bitcoin has of becoming the de facto global currency. That's right, I said currency. So, don't run away with thinking that I don't see bitcoin's potential.
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With bitcoin, the game is different. There are no loans, just payments. Hence, if you can't convince others (right now that's mostly techies) to pay for the implementation of your idea, you will never get it off the ground. Beautiful setup, isn't it?
There's also savings, which in this context some people mistakenly call hoarding. Yes, savings (hoarding) is part of the bitcoin economy. In fact, savings is the tool with which bitcoiners regulate the rates of deflation and inflation (note: not referring to the exchange rates with fiat currencies) in the bitcoin economy. It's just too bad that hoarding is plaguing the bitcoin economy at the early days of its development. Today, everyone should be spending, not hoarding. In the absence of too-easy credit, savings is the tool with which bitcoiners come up with enough money to start large projects.  How large are we talking about? Perhaps it's best to start small, since bitcoin economy is still in its infancy? |
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First, I don't think there is anything wrong with bitcoin. However, people have brought up the idea of "backing" bitcoin with gold or otherwise controlling deflation. I'm proposing two types of coins which could be created with a modified version of bitcoin (possibly multicoin: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=24209.0). One would be based on the price of gold, Goldcoin, and the other would be stable with little to no inflation or deflation, Stablecoin. What's the point in making an accounting ledger (read: bitcoin) to be more than just an accounting ledger? Bitcoin is already backed by the computing power of good/friendly nodes. Let's just make sure that their number always exceeds the number of rouge nodes. This can be achieved simply by spending bitcoins, rather than hoarding them (as if it's a commodity). |
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With bitcoin, the game is different. There are no loans, just payments. Hence, if you can't convince others (right now that's mostly techies) to pay for the implementation of your idea, you will never get it off the ground. Beautiful setup, isn't it?
There's also savings, which in this context some people mistakenly call hoarding. Yes, savings (hoarding) is part of the bitcoin economy. In fact, savings is the tool with which bitcoiners regulate the rates of deflation and inflation (note: not referring to the exchange rates with fiat currencies) in the bitcoin economy. It's just too bad that hoarding is plaguing the bitcoin economy at the early days of its development. Today, everyone should be spending, not hoarding. |
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When we talk about Bitcoin, we're talking about a digital commodity whose value depends (just as any other commodity) on supply and demand.
What makes an accounting ledger (read: bitcoin) a commodity? Now, the bitcoin network as a whole has a market price, which will adjust based on the value and volume of things (e.g. fiat currencies, bananas, etc.) that are sold for bitcoins; but a unit of account itself (a.k.a. a bitcoin transaction) is just another credit/debit entry in that network. So, when you speculate on the value of BTC in terms of fiat currencies, you're trying to price the act of recording a transaction. Essentially, you're trying to figure out a wage that an accountant should be paid for tracking all bitcoin-denominated transactions. But don't we already have accountants for the bitcoin network? And don't we pay them in bitcoin bounties and transaction fees? |
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Of course the loss will be real in that electricity costs money and miners might just turn off their rigs to save energy if transaction fees are not high enough. That is indeed a problem, but that same problem will also arise with the current bitcoin when no more coins can be mined. Actually that sounds like a real danger for today's bitcoin, since a lot of rigs will be turned off, leaving the network so much more vulnerable to the "51% attack".
This is why bitcoin should never be confused with an investment asset, commodity or even a collector's item. It's only a currency (a medium of exchange, or an accounting ledger, if you will). It can only exist if the number/volume of transactions is high enough to compensate miners for running their rigs. Hoarding bitcoin (either by miners or users) would only lead to its demise. Measuring bitcoin in how many (or how much) fiat currencies it can buy is as useless as measuring it in how many bananas it can buy: at the end, it's all about whether the supply of those goods (services) is increasing or decreasing with time. As for a solution (under my system) maybe miners could be promised some of their returns to be delivered in the future, at what ever the rate is at that time? Like, you will get 25% of what the rate is today right now, then you will get 25% of what the rate is next month, at next months rate, then you will get 25% in two months at that times rate and finally the last 25% in three months at whatever the rate is at that time. It will take some time to get all the coins (length of time can of course be adjusted and should be decided by the miners themselves).
Miners should realize they hold the key to bitcoin's success. They are the central banks of bitcoin economy. It's time they start acting like it. Update: For more, see http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=29565.msg373207#msg373207 |
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Cost of living is kept artificially high through various means.
And one of those means are loans: the lifeline of an inflationary "by design" economy. With that kind of setup, anyone can take out a loan to finance the implementation of original/innovative or imitative ideas (regardless of their usefulness to the society). Even the law may not be able to block that implementation (like when the government itself decides to take out a loan for some stupid idea). As the result, the society creates more waste than wealth. And when a given idea doesn't materialize (i.e. brings losses, not profits), all that excessive money supply (created through loans) can disappear in the blink of an eye (like it did in the fall of 2008). With bitcoin, the game is different. There are no loans, just payments. Hence, if you can't convince others (right now that's mostly techies) to pay for the implementation of your idea, you will never get it off the ground. Beautiful setup, isn't it? |
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Would have to disagree with you on one thing...
Currency belongs to those who issue it. So, if you let others (e.g. government, central bank, etc) to issue currency on your behalf, then it belongs to them, not you. In bitcoin's case, although it is the miners who are the issuers of BTC, everyone can set up their own mining rig at any time. The biggest hurdle that must be overcome is miners believing that bitcoin is an investment asset. And that's why I'm here... to help them realize that bitcoin will die unless there are millions of transactions in the block chain daily.
Dude, being able to just flip a switch and print your own money is exactly why we have regulated monetary organization in the first place. It doesn't fucking matter that a central authority prints the money, it's still a proof-of-work instrument. I'm not suggesting that printing money is the same thing as issuing it. In bitcoin economy, the amount of money that can be printed is set at 21,000,000BTCs. Miners (a.k.a. central banks) only have the power to issue that money into the economy by putting their own bitcoin reserves into circulation; then it becomes the job of bitcoin users (a.k.a. member banks, or just banks) to circulate that money around the economy. The more the miners or users hoard their bitcoins, the harder it becomes for the producers to generate sales (hence, they will jack up their prices, and the economy will experience an inflation). As you can see, if miners/users want the economy to grow, they must keep spending.
Furthermore, inflation is a economic INCENTIVE to innovate, invent, and expand. That's why I believe people who stash away cash and bitch about inflation deserve to have their money divested from them, because I believe everyone should always be looking for ways to actively improve theirs and other's financial situations.
I'd say that inflation is more of an economic incentive to imitate than to innovate/invent. Think about it, why should one focus on coming up with something new knowing that by spending less today--in order to copy an already successful invention--one will be able to rip the benefit of higher prices down the road? Essentially, in the inflationary economy, the innovator/inventor's hand always feeds the copycats. The key driver of innovation/invention has always been and always will be a potential increase in the number of innovative competitors. |
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Well I'm sorry that I have no interest in throughly explaining myself to someone who doesn't understand what I've already written. I hope that someone else wouldn't mind "translating" or elaborating for you.
Let's me see here... It seems that in order to make OP's assertion valid, one must simply rephrase "The long term trend for bitcoin value is contraction, not expansion." as "The long term trend for fiat/bitcoin exchange rates is contraction, not expansion." See, we no longer talking about bitcoin's value--only about the ability of market makers (like MtGox crew, etc) to maintain fiat/bitcoin current exchange rates for more than a month or two. OP is right, bitcoin's true value is WAY BELOW current exchange rates due to bitcoin not having any economy to call Home. So, stop worrying about the exchange rates that market makers are feeding you every day. Instead, start offering your bitcoins to merchants... Let's see if they do value BTC more than their local fiat currencies. Absolutely. You've summarized quite accurately. Now, my OPINION is that BTC will never find a use with the wider public because it's "advantages" are really quite meaningless to your average consumer, and CERTAINLY don't outweigh the glut of inconveniences inherent to it. But what's not opinion is that the exchange rate is massively overvalued and is now headed down to a more accurate valuation as the hype continues to subside. And by "not opinion", I'm assuming you meant that "it's a fact"?... If so, then I concur: all of the shelves with fiat currencies have been emptied out; only the shelves with overripened "bananas" still remain. If only bitcoin miners could survive on bananas, we'd be fine! As far as BTC finding its use with the wider public, you and I are of a different opinion. You see, there's still hope that miners would eventually realize that without spending, there can never be a deflation in the deflationary "by design" economy. In order to get from 21,000,000BTCs (monetary base) to 2,100,000,000,000,000BTCs (expected total money supply), all of 21,000,000BTCs must be constantly exchanging hands (and the more hands the better). Miners hoarding bitcoins is equivalent to the central banks (in inflationary economies) raising the minimum reserve requirements of their member banks (or bitcoin users, in our case), thus reducing the available money supply. As for bitcoin advantages, perhaps you should try looking at the bitcoin network as the best-in-class accounting system/ledger of who owes what to whom. For example, what stops one neighbor (a computer buff) from agreeing with another neighbor (a landscaping business owner) to exchange their skills/services for bitcoins, rather than for local fiat currency? Bitcoins are perfect for that type of contracts. But the point is that fiat currencies aren't evil, serve their purpose just fine and have for many hundreds of years and likely will for a hundred years to come. Do some currencies hyper-inflate? Sure do, and then they correct and recover. And it's not the fact that a currency can be inflated that makes fiat "evil," it's that there are corrupt governments, and Bitcoin isn't going to do a single fucking thing to remedy the fact that people allow corrupt governments to exist. In fact, the motherfucking BITCOIN economy/exchange is more corrupt than the US economy and the FED right now! Fiat currencies are not evil, but their money supply is out of people's control. Bitcoin, on the other hand, is a currency of the people by the people. Wouldn't you agree that voting with money is much more effective and efficient than voting with ballots or feet? (Money is fuel, so to speak.) If you control the money supply, you get to say what goes and what doesn't for whatever type of economy you are envisioning or trying to build. Having a choice is great, no? Now, we just need to find a way to keep the market makers out of bitcoin economy... The stench is overbearing! Negative. Every currency belonging to a democratically elected government is directly beholden to the populace. The point is that democratic populations are impotent and ineffectual at managing their own government and essentially deserve everything that they get coming to them. Also, I'd much rather deal with the Dragon's Den on Wall Street and the Fat Cats in the Fed than the shithole excuses for monetary exchanges that belong to bitcoin and the Bitcoin Elite that hold the lions share of the entire currency among a tiny number of hands... Don't delude yourself. Bitcoin is not a "currency" by the people for the people. It's a Multi-level Marketing scheme run by "Oligarchs" and market shysters. Would have to disagree with you on one thing... Currency is beholden to those who issue it. So, if you let others (e.g. government, central bank, etc) to issue currency on your behalf, then it is beholden to them, not you. In bitcoin's case, although it is the miners who are the issuers of BTC, everyone can set up their own mining rig at any time. The biggest hurdle that must be overcome is miners believing that bitcoin is an investment asset. And that's why I'm here... to help them realize that bitcoin will die unless there are millions of transactions in the block chain daily. |
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It is opinion. The only thing we know for sure is that their are offers and bids in the high thirteens right now. Everything else is opinion. Value is what a willing buyer and seller agree on.
If only we knew for sure that those were the real bids/offers, and not the market makers themselves trying to maintain a certain profit level by simply massaging the numbers inside their database. Do you really have trust in the unregulated market makers? If I want to buy right now, I know what I have to pay. If I want to sell right now, I know what I have to charge. If the volumes are high, the price will move to the next best offer/bid. You are right that the market depth chart is not completely reliable, but for small amounts, it doesn't hardly matter at all. Buyers may think its overvalued and sellers think it's undervalued. They meet in the middle just the way they are supposed to if they want to transact now. otherwise they bide their time and take their chances. Both sides. Yes, it's up to the parties at each end of the exchange transaction to either accept or reject the market maker's price. However, this approach produces unrealistic expectations about the future of bitcoin. In addition, it offers nothing of value to the bitcoin network itself, as all trading activity occurs outside the bitcoin block chain, which means that there are no transaction fees to compensate miners for maintaining and protecting (from potential attacks by rogue nodes) the bitcoin network. |
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Well I'm sorry that I have no interest in throughly explaining myself to someone who doesn't understand what I've already written. I hope that someone else wouldn't mind "translating" or elaborating for you.
Let's me see here... It seems that in order to make OP's assertion valid, one must simply rephrase "The long term trend for bitcoin value is contraction, not expansion." as "The long term trend for fiat/bitcoin exchange rates is contraction, not expansion." See, we no longer talking about bitcoin's value--only about the ability of market makers (like MtGox crew, etc) to maintain fiat/bitcoin current exchange rates for more than a month or two. OP is right, bitcoin's true value is WAY BELOW current exchange rates due to bitcoin not having any economy to call Home. So, stop worrying about the exchange rates that market makers are feeding you every day. Instead, start offering your bitcoins to merchants... Let's see if they do value BTC more than their local fiat currencies. Absolutely. You've summarized quite accurately. Now, my OPINION is that BTC will never find a use with the wider public because it's "advantages" are really quite meaningless to your average consumer, and CERTAINLY don't outweigh the glut of inconveniences inherent to it. But what's not opinion is that the exchange rate is massively overvalued and is now headed down to a more accurate valuation as the hype continues to subside. And by "not opinion", I'm assuming you meant that "it's a fact"?... If so, then I concur: all of the shelves with fiat currencies have been emptied out; only the shelves with overripened "bananas" still remain. If only bitcoin miners could survive on bananas, we'd be fine! As far as BTC finding its use with the wider public, you and I are of a different opinion. You see, there's still hope that miners would eventually realize that without spending, there can never be a deflation in the deflationary "by design" economy. In order to get from 21,000,000BTCs (monetary base) to 2,100,000,000,000,000BTCs (expected total money supply), all of 21,000,000BTCs must be constantly exchanging hands (and the more hands the better). Miners hoarding bitcoins is equivalent to the central banks (in inflationary economies) raising the minimum reserve requirements of their member banks (or bitcoin users, in our case), thus reducing the available money supply. As for bitcoin advantages, perhaps you should try looking at the bitcoin network as the best-in-class accounting system/ledger of who owes what to whom. For example, what stops one neighbor (a computer buff) from agreeing with another neighbor (a landscaping business owner) to exchange their skills/services for bitcoins, rather than for local fiat currency? Bitcoins are perfect for that type of contracts. But the point is that fiat currencies aren't evil, serve their purpose just fine and have for many hundreds of years and likely will for a hundred years to come. Do some currencies hyper-inflate? Sure do, and then they correct and recover. And it's not the fact that a currency can be inflated that makes fiat "evil," it's that there are corrupt governments, and Bitcoin isn't going to do a single fucking thing to remedy the fact that people allow corrupt governments to exist. In fact, the motherfucking BITCOIN economy/exchange is more corrupt than the US economy and the FED right now! Fiat currencies are not evil, but their money supply is out of people's control. Bitcoin, on the other hand, is a currency of the people by the people. Wouldn't you agree that voting with money is much more effective and efficient than voting with ballots or feet? (Money is fuel, so to speak.) If you control the money supply, you get to say what goes and what doesn't for whatever type of economy you are envisioning or trying to build. Having a choice is great, no? Now, we just need to find a way to keep the market makers out of bitcoin economy... The stench is overbearing! |
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It is opinion. The only thing we know for sure is that their are offers and bids in the high thirteens right now. Everything else is opinion. Value is what a willing buyer and seller agree on.
If only we knew for sure that those were the real bids/offers, and not the market makers themselves trying to maintain a certain profit level by simply massaging the numbers inside their database. Do you really have trust in the unregulated market makers? |
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Well I'm sorry that I have no interest in throughly explaining myself to someone who doesn't understand what I've already written. I hope that someone else wouldn't mind "translating" or elaborating for you.
Let's me see here... It seems that in order to make OP's assertion valid, one must simply rephrase "The long term trend for bitcoin value is contraction, not expansion." as "The long term trend for fiat/bitcoin exchange rates is contraction, not expansion." See, we no longer talking about bitcoin's value--only about the ability of market makers (like MtGox crew, etc) to maintain fiat/bitcoin current exchange rates for more than a month or two. OP is right, bitcoin's true value is WAY BELOW current exchange rates due to bitcoin not having any economy to call Home. So, stop worrying about the exchange rates that market makers are feeding you every day. Instead, start offering your bitcoins to merchants... Let's see if they do value BTC more than their local fiat currencies. Absolutely. You've summarized quite accurately. Now, my OPINION is that BTC will never find a use with the wider public because it's "advantages" are really quite meaningless to your average consumer, and CERTAINLY don't outweigh the glut of inconveniences inherent to it. But what's not opinion is that the exchange rate is massively overvalued and is now headed down to a more accurate valuation as the hype continues to subside. And by "not opinion", I'm assuming you meant that "it's a fact"?... If so, then I concur: all of the shelves with fiat currencies have been emptied out; only the shelves with overripened "bananas" still remain. If only bitcoin miners could survive on bananas, we'd be fine! As far as BTC finding its use with the wider public, you and I are of a different opinion. You see, there's still hope that miners would eventually realize that without spending, there can never be a deflation in the deflationary "by design" economy. In order to get from 21,000,000BTCs (monetary base) to 2,100,000,000,000,000BTCs (expected total money supply), all of 21,000,000BTCs must be constantly exchanging hands (and the more hands the better). Miners hoarding bitcoins is equivalent to the central banks (in inflationary economies) raising the minimum reserve requirements of their member banks (or bitcoin users, in our case), thus reducing the available money supply. As for bitcoin advantages, perhaps you should try looking at the bitcoin network as the best-in-class accounting system/ledger of who owes what to whom. For example, what stops one neighbor (a computer buff) from agreeing with another neighbor (a landscaping business owner) to exchange their skills/services for bitcoins, rather than for local fiat currency? Bitcoins are perfect for that type of contracts. |
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