I really don't get all this your hatred for Bitcoin but what I don't understand is how do you understand Fiat currency and not Bitcoin? So back in the years when there was no paper money and people would do trade by bather and later cowries and eventually paper money, how did all this method got accepted? because the people accepted them. So some ink can be printed on paper and because the government told you that is it's worth you accepted it and if that same value is transmitted digitally for transactions you still accept it even without the physical nature and Bitcoin is difficult for you to understand?

You're coming off as desperate Snowshow.  

You should have stopped while you were ahead... (presuming that at some point you might have been ahead, which is a pretty BIG presumption)..

 

I don't know if I need to push anything.

A somewhat funny thing about bitcoin continues to be that it does not really have any kind of a marketing team.. even though there are various bitcoin evangelists.. and people who do promote bitcoin. sometimes for free and sometimes they get paid, but bitcoin does not have any kind of marketing budget.

Some folks from within bitcoin do want to give back in various ways.. so maybe sometimes to the uneducated, it might seem like there is some kind of marketing team... so yes.. there is some subtlety within the ideas of benefiting in regards to spreading positive information about bitcoin....

There are also quite a few examples of bitcoin pumpers who end up deviating in their message and they start to pump shitcoins or they seem to get disenchanted with bitcoin.. so it is not always clear in regards to whether someone is speaking in the promotion of bitcoin or if they have gone into some other direction.. none of those kinds of supposed bitcoin promotional matters are as straight-forward as you seem to be suggesting them to be.


Even though I disagree with your characterization of newbies as if they were gullible suckers or that bitcoin HODLers are in any kind of desperate need to convince them to come into bitcoin, Bitcoin still has a pretty tiny level of adoption, so even though we cannot be sure in the short term about price fluctuations and even that some folks might get discouraged, overall the adoption and network effects continue to expand even in spite of various negative campaigns (like yours) or the actual material attempts to directly dump upon bitcoin.. so some of those folks who are engaging in naked-shorting bitcoin could end up getting their asses handed to them in pretty severe ways if they do not have the bitcoin that they claim to have or they are betting against bitcoin but they do not have adequate exposure and bitcoin prices go up rather than their DOWNity hopiums.. some of them could end up getting royally reckt (even if some people perceive them to have an infinite amount of printing power in regards to dollars to throw at trying to keep king daddy down).  

Extremely strange argumentation. Let's say that the OS does not exist on your computer, because it is an abstract code that is somewhere out there, you don't see it and don't notice it.

For example, I cannot see the author of this topic and see only words folded into sentences. Should I assume that the author of this topic doesn't exist in reality?

And I strongly advise everyone reports that new topic to the moderators as a duplicate.  Because this spamming shitheap blatantly just wants to sweep all the arguments against him aside and post more of the same nonsense.

They should already be banned due to ban-evasion, so don't allow them to make a further mockery of the forums.

Please don’t tell this secrete to my bank because they just credited me with real fiat money for the bitcoins which I sold on exchanger. Lolz.

If they did not exist then such transactions would never happen. Remember it’s inter and intra connected economical system which is in loop. Miners mine it using electricity, they pay the bills, they generate revenue, we use minted coins and use them to buy products and services.

In the process fiat is also moving and making sure that bitcoin has a value.

No need for bolding of your whole post... diptwat.

One of the great things about an asymmetric bet like bitcoin is that you do not need to lose leverage, and sure you could lose everything. .but the value that is being created by having bitcoin as a system.. causes for so much more upside potential than has already come to this asset class.. whether it takes 2-6 years before our next upwards price run.. or maybe it could take longer (such as 8-12 years) for those who can ONLY invest small amounts to start to feel meaningful impacts on their overall financial well-being from merely responsible investing small amounts on a regular basis (something like dollar cost averaging).

Another thing is that the various systems built around bitcoin and the knowledge space has already created value (and brought value to society) above and beyond the price appreciation that
BTC accumulators and HODLers have felt on a more personal level...

Maybe it is true with all paradigm shifting technologies, whether we are talking about more recent inventions like the internet or the automobile or airplane or even the invention of the wheel.. Other things in societies  ended up getting built on such systems that had not previously been possible..   the refrigerator, radio and telephone too... oh and of course, there were other things like that, too... but bitcoin has a kind of invention of a second internet, but one that allows for value to be transmitted on top of it without anyone being able to stop the transmission of such value... It is already BIG and likely to continue to be BIG.... a part of the greatest wealth transfer ever..even if it might take 20, 50, 100, or more years to play out...  

Better if you jump onto bitcoin sooner rather than later Snowshow... #justsaying.

Bitcoin is a phenomenon. Something which holds potential to transform the international  economy, something which is slowly but steadily expanding its space and applications in market. Each day one or other country or institution is embracing bitcoin and this transformation will greatly help people to achieve a truly liberal economy, when we wont need currency exchanges, when international business will become as simple as retail store purchases.
The poor will be able to have higher access to funds, not only by local or national market but by international investors. The efficiency of economy will increase significantly.
So if you believe this could be enough reason to be a part of the bitcoin economy, embrace it or keep questioning the myths

In general, this can be said about all cryptocurrencies. And in general - isn't the market mythical? After all, in fact, everyone is selling just papers.

If you don't want to buy bitcoins then don't do it. There are many goods that people buy especially in the investing field that you can not eat, that does not make them a scam. Alone for this statement you are now on my ignore list.

It's not surprising someone as morally bankrupt as yourself is attempting to move the goalposts, but that's not what it means to "benefit from the system", unless you are merely a speculator.  Granted, for some that is the primary motivation for getting involved with Bitcoin.  And I feel sorry for those people.  Nothing in the whitepaper says the purpose of Bitcoin is to buy it cheap for fiat and then sell it high for fiat.  But you, like many in the shallow and uncomprehending media, are only capable of seeing that side of things.  Which is why you parrot the weak and flawed arguments posed in crappy articles from worthless gutter rags with no journalistic integrity.  You don't have an original thought in your empty little head.  

The real benefits of Bitcoin are the tamper-proof sending of funds without interference from, or reliance upon, any middlemen, the transparent and open nature of the network allowing anyone to validate that a transaction has taken place and all the other things that have been repeatedly explained to you.  All the things fiat cannot offer us.  You are willfully blind to that side of the argument.  You won't acknowledge it because you are fundamentally dishonest.  A putrid little shitweasel with no decency.

OP: 
When one does not have the ability to understand, one wanders and consequently reaches conclusions based on the "LCD".

The situation with bitcoin is simple, hundreds of years ago the words was the payment currency that was represented in a good or barter, there was what It is known (knew) as a verbal commitment, nothing more was needed, but it was obvious that bad boys no pay and cheats have always existed in the history of mankind.

Then came paper (papyrus), coins, etc. so bitcoin is not different this is reference from the historical past confirms that forms of payment evolve, my idea is very simple and brief and without referencing dates, etc. in consequence "The Point/OP" is already ridiculous to say that bitcoin is not based on anything. (It's song song  overcome)

And yet, it's been told to you, thousands of times. Here are a few for emphasis:

That is not the case since bitcoin is an anonymous store of wealth that can be send worldwide and transported written on a paper. With the rest what you wrote I agree, the only difference is that I understand that the user case that I described as a anonymous payment system results in the value of bitcoin. Other then that there is no value stored in bitcoin that is true, but that is obvious to everyone since bitcoin only consist of numbers (like your online banking also at least in germany, since onlinebanking does not store money but is a written duty for the bank to give you money if you want it)

Why would it matter what you asked me to write?  First of all you seem to have a pretty fucked up view of the topic, and surely some folks, including yours truly, was willing to entertain some of your ways of presenting your case.. but in the end, there ends up being hardly any (if any) there there..,. Your ideas of supposed lack of value in bitcoin end up being quite vacuous, even if you attempt to present them in ways to attempt to suggest that you have some kind of profound viewpoint on the matter.



Why do we need to wait until the future?  People are already doing quite well with bitcoin.  Bitcoin is already a success in a large number of ways.  Sure, there are future considerations too, yet there seems to be no need to be projecting some indefinite point into the future in which supposedly we are all going to be fucked, but in the meantime, we have ended up suffering worst costs if we attempt to follow your nocoiner approach - that really has already proven to not be a good one.. and even if we were to hypothesize that you have gotten into bitcoin and you are currently in the red, then at that point there might be some need to figure out what your approach might be from there.. including maybe continuing to dollar cost average or buy on dips or just HODL through the whole matter.  Hopefully people are not failing/refusing to sufficiently and adequately account for their own cashflow situations and to make sure that they have their expenses sufficiently covered including maintaining some decent level of emergency expenses too.. and surely with an investment like bitcoin, the first several years could take some time to get into profits - and of course, there are not guarantees either, so in that regard, no one should be investing more than they can afford to lose - even if the investment thesis these  days seems to be quite stronger than it was in 2014 or even 2018 - so even if there are way fewer folks projecting bitcoin to go to zero, I still believe that there are a lot of benefits towards planning, strategizing and employing a somewhat prudent investment style while building ones bitcoin portfolio that might even take 4-10 years to build.. depending upon individual circumstances that should also be accounted for.


For sure, you seem to be creating an artificial construct and then wanting to me to jump into your artificial construct.  I have already address the value question in regards to bitcoin, and you can keep fighting it all you like but I see no need to accept your framework, even though you continue to insist that I am not sufficiently/adequately playing ball with you.

It seems to me that I already sufficiently tried to play ball with you, and you fail to play ball back with me and you continue to insist on your way of framing value which ends up putting us into dumb hypotheticals that are detached from reality.. Furthermore, it seems to me that bitcoin has a strong enough fundamental case in terms of network effects that anybody should be able to initially allocate anywhere between 1% and 25% of his/her investment portfolio into bitcoin and then go from there.  Of course, if there is a lot of skepticism about bitcoin, then the level should be lower.. perhaps closer to 1%.  If you want to remain a nocoiner then that is your choice, but 1% seems to be a more prudent  approach, even for a bitcoin skeptic... and sure, some people might even take 3-12 months to get their bitcoin allocation up to 1%, and for sure, individual circumstances are going to vary in terms of whether they have other investments and how they decide to get into bitcoin, whether it would be DCA, buying on dips, lump sum investing or some combination of the three in order to establish their initial stake - and hopefully, researching into bitcoin at the same time in order that they are going to become more comfortable with whatever strategy that they have established and maybe even tweaking their strategy once they are more informed about what brings value to bitcoin.

Let us stop here for a moment. In your fictional scenario, why do you think people would "invest their value in your system"? I think that is an important part.

However, once people invested their value in my system I said to them: you are unable to return even a dime worth of value from my system, and if you want to return your investment, you have to wait for new investors to bring value into my system. Would you call me a scammer, and would you say that my system is worthless?

Yes. By luring investors with false promises about your "system," and later changing your terms, you would be considered to have deceived your investors, thus labeling you as a scammer.
However, I am not sure how this relates to Bitcoin in any way.

I don't really know how it works beyond what I have already said... so yeah, you might be correct.  We might all be fucked at some point, but I still think that it is one of the greatest asymmetric bets that normies (regular people) have been able to have in front of them including that it seems to be facilitating the greatest wealth transfer in history.. so hopefully your .001% (or whatever the appropriate probability assignment?) scenario is not correct.

I don't have to do anything. I proofed you wrong many times and gave you arguments why your assumptions are not correct. If you keep asking the same questions without accepting the answers this will lead to nothing. The problem is that you read something about the USD and are not able to adapt this system to the bitcoin. Because you are not able to adapt it you say that bitcoin is not existent and a scam. Only you don't understand that the problem is on your side and not on the side of bitcoin.

One of the great things here is that no one has to prove anything to anybody else.

If we were trying to change some kind of practice or procedure or to decide who is correct about a dispute, then there would be burdens of proof for the person trying to make the change or to convince that a change is necessary or even to show which side is correct within a dispute.

But here we do not have that... there is no need for a resolution.

You seem to be trying to argue why bitcoin is not valuable relative to other systems (such as existing fiat systems that you seem to believe are valuable or even more valuable), and you might be correct or you might not be, and in the end, it does not matter too much because you can make your choices about how you want to go forward in the world - how you want to spend your time and your money and whether or not you want to invest in bitcoin as compared with investing in other assets.

To the extent that you are being genuine, it is difficult to believe that you are, because you are claiming to have some kind of unique and educated perspective, but ONLY you seem to agree with your own points to the extent that you have anything that means anything.

So, sure it is possible that you might be the ONLY one that is correct, but it seems that the overwhelming number of folks who have been studying bitcoin have come to recognize and appreciate value within the bitcoin system that causes some gravitation of further value into bitcoin, and so with the passage of time, it seems that more and more people are going to continue value bitcoin, and they might not even know why they are valuing bitcoin except for the fact that other people are valuing bitcoin.. so in that regard, it seems that Gresham's law principles are going to cause more and more value to gravitate into bitcoin - especially since bitcoin seems to be the soundest of monies that have ever been created - so the various inefficiencies of other monies will likely continue to flow into bitcoin, and the monetization of other goods will likely continue to gravitate into bitcoin.

Even though much of the monetary value is likely to continue to flow into bitcoin and it could take 20, 50, 100 or more years for a lot of the current inefficient monetizations to flow into bitcoin, there are still going to be ways that assets, property, goods and services are going to retain some value that is not monetary value but other ways that they are valued.... such as your earlier apple example.  I cannot eat a bitcoin, so if I want an apple, I am going to need to exchange something for that apple, which may well end up being bitcoin - if I end up having nothing else that I am able to exchange for it and in a world in which all of the monetary systems have flowed into bitcoin.

In the end, you can choose where to hold your value Snowshow, and surely each of our choices have the potential to have quite differing consequences, and I am not even saying that you are going to be wrong if you choose to remain a no coiner.. even if 20 years down the road, you might realize that you could have done better by having had chosen to take a more aggressive approach towards accumulating bitcoin, which I already mentioned is not necessarily an all or nothing proposition.. and anywhere between 1% and 25% allocation would be a good place to start if you are still currently on zero.. the rest of your balancing of individual considerations should also be accounted, and you are not interested in those kinds of matters anyhow, and so why should I repeat things that I already mentioned?




You are correct that there are a variety of ways that people get benefits, and if bitcoin has value (which we seem to have establish that it does and that the value of bitcoin has grown through the years), then bitcoin can be exchanged for those other various goods and services that you mentioned above.  People can choose how much bitcoin to exchange, and if they do not value bitcoin, then another medium of exchange will need to be found, so surely bitcoin is not going to work in every transaction - and especially bitcoin is not going to work if the counter party does not recognize it as valuable...

It seems to me that the longer bitcoin has been around, the more places and people and institutions that seem to recognize bitcoin as having value so may well be agreeable to entering into a direct exchange; however, there may well be some cases in which I want to buy that piece of property, and they only recognize dollars as valuable, so then I have to exchange my bitcoin for dollars before I am going to be able to acquire that piece of property.


Well.. if bitcoin loses its value, then I will need more of it to be able to buy any of the goods and services that I want to purchase with it.  You are proclaiming that some shenanigans are going on that appear to be like a pyramid scheme going on in bitcoin, which you seem to not know what the fuck you are talking about.. but of course, you can believe what you like.  In any event, history seems to show us that the longer that you have been into bitcoin, the more likely that bitcoin is either going to have a similar or a higher relative value than it had earlier... so of course, if you have not been into bitcoin long enough then you might not have been able to realize an appreciation of the value of your bitcoin, and your forum registration is ONLY two months, so it could be possible that you have not been in bitcoin for long enough..

So maybe we have to go back to a longer example, such as myself.  Let's say hypothetically if between 2013 and 2017, I ended up acquiring a total 10 bitcoin, and it cost me around $10k to accumulate those 10 BTC.. so that is a cost of $1k per BTC.

Right now, I am not in any kind of desperate state regarding the BTC price because my profits are quite extensive (in the area of 30x on average if we are considering the current price of $30k per BTC).  so I have options with those 10 BTC in terms of how to spend them, and if some folks do not want to accept my BTC, then I could incur some extra costs in order to be able to get dollars or whatever it is that they would like to exchange with me for me to get what I want to get with those 10 BTC or some fraction of a BTC.. for example, if I want to spend 0.0001 BTC on a cup of coffee.. or an apple.

Another hypothetical person might not have gotten into bitcoin until the 2018 to 2020 time period, and that person might have ended up ONLY being able to acquire around 1 BTC for the similar amount of $10k investment, so that person ends up having a $10k per BTC cost per BTC.. and currently with our BTC prices at $30k, such an investor might not really be in the mood to spend  his/her bitcoin yet because s/he would just like to continue to stack sats and to keep building his/her BTC stash because s/he believes bitcoin will continue to go up in price, and maybe through the next 5 to 10 years s/he might be able to acquire another 0.2 BTC or maybe another 0.5 BTC depending on how much s/he is able to continue to invest into BTC with the passage of time and how much the BTC prices change during that ongoing investment period - whether the BTC prices go up or not (and many of us here seem to presume that on a longer timeframe BTC prices continue to have decently strongly likely chances to continue to go up with the passage of time, even though in the shorter time periods, it might not be so clear about how much BTC prices might go up or down).

Of course, you Snowshow sound as if you have been possibly studying bitcoin for longer than your forum registration date (which is only two months ago), but I can still appreciate how you may well feel confused or even not appreciating bitcoin's price going up with the passage of time if you have gotten into bitcoin in the past 2 years, it is possible that your BTC holdings could be under water at the moment.  

Surely, bitcoin has already had a history of showing that it can take a decent amount of time to appreciate in value, and I have many times mentioned in the forum that I had portions of my bitcoin (the ones purchased at $1.2k) that were under water for nearly 3.5 years from November 2013 to March 2017 before they started to come above water, and surely part of the saving grace could be ongoing buying that ends up bringing down the average price per BTC and maybe even raising the cost per BTC with other mistakes that are made along the way, too.  And, so maybe part of the point is that it can take a while for investment conviction to pay off and even to start to feel either decently large BTC compounding value or just have been able to accumulate enough with the passage of time and to have had enough time pass that the price has actually risen.. again getting back to timeline considerations which is also ONLY just one of the factors to consider regarding both getting into bitcoin and how much and how to allocate into it.

You can continue to speculate that bitcoin has no value and you can continue to not buy any bitcoin, or you can get the fuck started with some level of investment.  I would imagine that in 5-10 years, history is not going to look kindly upon folks who knew about bitcoin in these times, and failed/refused to at least not take some kind of initial meaningful stake within their means rather than just ongoingly blinding themselves (and naysaying) to what seems to actually be happening in the world and that bitcoin should at least serve as some kind of hedge to other current systems, even if you may well continue to retain some skepticisms in regards to how bitcoin is retaining its value relative to other possible investments that you could make in these here seemingly ongoing trying times.

If you think you are smarter than everyone else then I can't help you. These are official definitions and you can fight them as you want, it will still not change that you are wrong.

Yes, exactly. If Bitcoin did not benefit people, it would not be where it is today. Get it?