I'm actually seriously considering just buying hashpower via Piggyback mining. I bought a small amount already, and the cost is about the same as an antminer when you add in a power supply for a five year contract. I've been using them for two weeks as a "test" and they have paid out on time every sunday. Not a bad deal, actually. I'd prefer to have the miner physically in my possession, but this ain't a bad alternative. And the ability to buy 1 GH/s at a time is kind of cool as well.

It does, however lack the flexibility. I can't mine anything but bitcoin with it. That's not all bad, but as the diff rises, I can play arbitrage games if I have a miner in hand. So, Ant or not ant, that is the question...

Maybe I'll split the difference and try to get a cube or something. I'll have the money to pull the trigger in a few days.

Well, like you said, I got lucky. But you could try restoring the defaults, as the only time mine started that behaviour was when I fucked around with the settings without knowing what I was doing. I then put everything back to default in the cgminer setup tab, and only pushed buttons that I knew what I was doing with. Since then the only "failures" were when I was mining at an altcoin profit switching pool. My miner didn't get along with his pool. Constant problems. The guy worked with me, so I don't wanna name the pool or badmouth him. I just see it as incompatibility

There is a very good reason why "lie detectors", more correctly known as a polygraph, are not admissable evidence. They do not reliably indicate truth, they just measure changes in heart rate, breathing, and galvanic skin response. Anyone with imagination and a modicum of self control can make the operator believe/disbelieve anything they want to. A sociopath will always "beat" a lie detector. So will a practitioner or meditation, yoga, or anything else where iron self discipline is a component.

Now sodium amytal/pentothal and a competent psychologist....

I don't suppose they make one for computers, do they?

Alright, that's snarky. But I hate macs

While I don't think it was directed at me, I'd like to address the compassion issue.

While I think it is indeed necessary and right to discuss and if possible mitigate the human cost here, I also think that any "technical" solution that rolls back the blockchain or otherwise messes with the internal working of Bitcoin is NOT compassionate, even though it appears to be. Because if we do that (and the nature of bitcoin makes it so it is ALL of us if it is to be done), then instead of 6 percent loss, it's one hundred percent. I understand that the op was in fact not suggesting this, but rather trying to find a way to recover the keys. But the idea nevertheless got floated, and in more than one place.

I would suggest that all those who lost money in whatever flavor to MTGOX contact the court officers who are investigating the alleged bankruptcy and DETAIL your losses, with such details as they need to prove it. I doubt that the software and user accounts have been destroyed, and the missing coins do exist in the blockchain. I'm not a cryptographic expert. It's something I have some interest in, but my math skills are sub par. I'm good at merchant's math, but not the advanced stuff. Nevertheless, with the experts and the law all on this, it is likely that a fair amount will be recovered and disbursed to the account holders. I very much doubt that Mr. Karpeles personal fortune will be greatly impacted by this, unless he was foolish enough to keep his personal funds on the exchange and/or is found to have perpetrated or been involved. But his company is going to be either sold at auction piecemeal, or be bought out (price of which would likely include settlement of accounts to the extent possible).

While not physical, Bitcoin shares far more in common with hard monies such as gold and silver than it does with modern fiat currencies. It has to be treated as such. You, me, every bitcoin user needs to understand this. You HAVE to have sole access to your private keys at all times, and if you do have coins on an exchange, it should be a fraction of what you have, or be there no longer than it takes to effect the exchange. I think the people who got burned will learn this. I know it kind of came off like I was saying "they got what they deserved" earlier, but that was not my intent. I have personally lost a small fortune due to similar mistakes in my youth. If you learn from it, it's a painful memory. If you do it a second time, then yes, it is your fault.

I also think there is an opportunity here, and I would encourage former holders of Goxcoins to look into this, of offering insurance to the bitcoin market. One can mitigate quite a bit of risk in that manner, by risking a bit more on insurance It's a rather old economic model, and one that works. An honest insurance company (they do exist, or at least have) makes a lot of money for it's operators, and mitigate risk in a manner that encourages commerce and discourages stupidity while protecting it's clients against exactly the kind of crap that just went down with Gox.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think the most compassionate thing we as a community can do is encourage those who lost out to be more careful in the future, and to help build the value of the brand. In adversity lies opportunity. It is my belief that so long as we don't allow our feelings to overcome our logic, that bitcoin and BY EXTENSION it's holders will not only survive this, it will become stronger. Mtgox is not bitcoin, much as some of the media would like it to be. It was a corrupt and incompetent company that traded in bitcoin.

I have a standard response when some drone tells me not to be a smartass.

"Why? Just because YOU chose the alternative?"

These bastards exist for the sole purpose of oppressing the populace. Their pretensions of "protection" are belied by the very fact that they choose to disarm the law abiding. You want safe airlines? Put a dozen well trained security guards on board with submachine guns. Cheap, effective, and unintrusive. But it don't intimidate and harass the innocent, nor instill fear in an already cowed populace, thus it don't suit the purposes of the Empire. So it won't happen.

Yeah, you're right. I failed to remember my Phinneas Taylor Barnum. It is a moral obligation to part suckers from their money...

I don't do preorders. I'll only buy in hand equipment, or at the worst, build on payment from existing parts. Saves me a lot of grief, but also puts me behind the technological curve.

I know you're being tongue in cheek but I won't do that. I remember how I was treated, both in public and PM, when I was a newbie on this forum. I'm an oldschool BBS guy, so I can handle it. But this remains the most hostile forum to the new guy that I have ever encountered, and I am a libertarian anarchist!

There were a few really cool people right away. Alex, you, Greg Maxwell, Rassah and a few others. But god DAMN were some of the others horrid! I was even careful to keep my opinions low key at first, cuz nobody likes a loud mouth they haven't met yet.

The one part of this whole debacle where I can agree with AMT is that they were treated shabbily on this forum. Even before there was any reason to. The thread wasn't an hour old before the usual suspects were screaming SCAM. Where I disagree is them responding in kind. When soliciting business, it's better to take the high road.

I had more, but it got away I no like this gettin' old shit...

You already got 18X on me. I better get busy!

I have begun to read it. You write well, and that is a good beginning. I'll post an opinion later.

Edit: I've read about half of it now, and I have to bag it for tonight. Very interesting. I haven't yet read your conclusions, but you make some good points. I won't comment on the problems I see until I have finished the paper, but so far I'm seeing a pretty good framework for debate, at the very least.

I would recommend you post it up as it's own thread, where we can pick at it and hone it.

Fully agree. Right now, the manufacturers are in an arms race, and because time to market is so important, they are taking shortcuts. This in itself is not egregious, but as things slow down and sanity rears its head, things will change.

I think the next iteration of ASIC design will not be aimed so much at lower process mode, but at designing from the ground up for efficiency. It is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that most, if not all, of the current bitcoin ASICs are essentially miniaturized FPGA arrays rather than a complete ground-up design. Thus they have a lot of room for reducing redundancies, thus freeing up a lot of silicon real estate. Die shrinks make them bigger and badder fast, but they are not truly optimized. Since the ASIC essentially has one relatively simple task, I suspect that we will soon see chips with much better efficiencies and higher hashrates. But it will probably be a year or more, as that's a much more difficult proposition than what is currently being done.

I truly hope the preorder madness has run its course. Without that perverse incentive, companies will have to focus more on quality and innovation. 

Technobit is far from a builder of "piss poor products". Martin is one hell of a designer. He also got to market with a WORKING Coincraft A1 based hashing board before Bitmine was able to. Let's be a bit careful here, eh? Being a fanboi is ok. Being a dick is pushing it.

I have followed Technobit pretty much since they started. I can attest, from my rebranded AMT HEX16B's, that they make a fine piece of equipment. My problems with AMT are over how they conduct their business, not the equipment vendor they worked with. This is a rock solid miner.

Loshia, I believe, can directly attest to that with the very same boards. I also know that he has at least one of the HEX8A1 boards, which if AMT had been smart, all of you would be now hashing with.

Uh, Phinn, you're a hundred years to late. It's no longer legal to resell Americans. Only the Federal Government can own slaves.

http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_Am13.html http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_Am13.html

Actually, Ipswitch. Since you know my real name, you can probably find a lot of my ancestry there It's been a long time since I've been there, but I think Brookings is fairly close. SD is a nice state. Did my very first bit of gold mining up near Spearfish, and been to the Rally twice. Both times on a Honda, somewhat to the consternation of the other bikers.

I was basically agreeing with you.

They had originally stated that you could get a refund up to the time of shipping. I definitely saw this on their website with the last generation of devices. Can't recall on Neptune, but I think it was there too. Several members have stated (I don't speak from personal knowledge here) that they have retroactively altered their terms after a purchase has been made. This is not legal under any legal doctrine that I am aware of. I'm not a lawyer, but I am married to one. She agrees with me on that point. You can't alter a contract without the EXPLICIT consent of the other party. Any such alterations will not hold in a lawful court.

I don't think Piggyback is even tradeable. It's just a five year mining contract. I use 'em, they do pay out on time. It's a cheap way in for low volume is all. As a major investment, it's twice the cost of an antminer if you extrapolate the cost per GH out. But if you've only got a small amount and want to mine, it's a way in.

I thought you had said that earlier. Nah, I wasn't stirring the pot. I find languages fascinating, especially in how people parse from one to another.

And yes, this is totally off topic, but still.. My dad grew up in South Dakota, in a town with a lot of German and Norwegian immigrants. (Which tends to explain the white side of my heritage ). At any rate, he told me of an encounter with a German lady that illustrates my point. People tend to still speak/write their native language in the "new" language's words. The structure and idiom carry over. It's kind of cool, actually. But anyway, the lady had been asked for directions to somewhere nearby, and her reply was:

"Take me at the garden, down by the gate, turn the fence corner round, and go straight up". I always thought that both funny and lyrical, so it's stuck with me for nearly 40 years. Along with a fascination with the differences in the way we communicate. I can't respond to you in your language at all. It's a cool looking script, but it's meaningless to me without the help of a translator. That you can communicate in my language, with some difficulty from time to time, is frankly a feather in your cap.

... most of the time :p But you've always clarified when I didn't understand.

I don't get why they wouldn't take your bet either. It's free money if they're on the ball. If I were them, and they are legit, I'd definitely have taken it. Hell, I'd have taken the bet you offered me if I had the money to risk But that's the gambler in me and not relevant to the moment.

Out of pure curiousity, and feel free to ignore me if you don't want to reveal it, what is your native tongue?

Shit. I totally missed that