Interesting? Bad. Although not (yet) as restrictive as to be expected in the US/EU. In my opinion it is imperative for the survival of Bitcoin that significant privacy improvements (default confidential transactions) are implemented as soon as possible. Because such improvements are not trivial they should be a #1 priority right now. I really hope that developers find the time and resources to address this serious fungibility issue. Now that two most government friendly figures Gavin and Mike have their own altcoin to work on, I really hope they won't interfere with more FUD-talk. ya.ya.yo! Yes it is bad for Bitcoin trades done in Mexico. But it is interesting as a government intervention standpoint. I don't support the move but the decision has interesting implications given Bitcoin has a public ledger to analyze. |
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Monero’s Allure
Furthermore, potential attackers are at a disadvantage for another reason. Monero tends to oppose organizations rather than people. Even someone who stands to lose from Monero by not reacting to it, such as a banker or government agent, stands to gain a great deal by buying now. Only the very wealthiest people might reasonably expect to be worse off attempting to buy up as much as possible now than if it were gone. (This could happen if their attempt to buy caused the price to rise too fast relative to their ability to acquire additional Moneros, to the point that they ultimately had less influence over the future Monero economy than they have over the economy of today.) Thus, the agency problem with Monero affects Monero competitors as well as Monero holders.
Nearly any government agent who begins to see Monero as a potential threat must also simultaneously see it as an opportunity. He, too, can invest in Monero. And why shouldn’t he? Monero may be a threat to his livelihood, but it may well be making him an offer he can’t refuse. How can an organization that stands to lose by the adoption of Monero provide its members with a better opportunity for staying loyal than Monero provides for defection?
Even those who might resist the temptation to defect would have to think about the defection of his fellows. How quickly is adoption happening? Is there time to mount an attack before Monero becomes too powerful? How easily could the resources for such an attack be amassed, given both the ignorance and treachery of the other agents. If such an attack would be unlikely to succeed, then buying now would be the only intelligent action. Regardless of whether he liked Monero, it would be futile to continue pursuing a doomed cause.
Potential Monero attackers are in a Prisoner’s Dilemma. In the same way that the people cannot easily rebel against the king owing to a lack of coordination on their part, governments cannot rebel against Monero for the same reason. The government puts the people in a Prisoner’s Dilemma against one another, and Monero does the same to government agents.
Monero is like Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Monero attracts inside men to act as covert saboteurs. There have long been predictions from both Moneroers and naysayers of impending government attacks, but I think there is a possibility that Monero could win without suffering much resistance. Moreover, although I said above only that any legal Monero attack could be perverted, the considerations discussed in this section tend to make such diffusion very likely.
Monero defends itself by being obscure, but once it has attracted someone’s attention, its best interest is for that person to understand the logic presented here. For then he will also understand that his best course is to deny Monero’s threat to his superiors and quietly to become its willing slave. Who wrote this? ^ |
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Auction link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1196097.msg12552767#msg12552767-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Sept 29th, 2015: Auction for FORTY 2013 LEALANA 0.1 BTC Brass Coins   *****Carefully read this auction post in its entirety before bidding*****Auction ends October 2nd, 2015 at 3:00 PM Hawaiian Standard TimeMinimum bid will start at 0.83BTC. Bidding will be done in 0.01BTC increments. Shipping will be $30 for US and $50 for International bidders. This will be added to the winning bid after the auction.(ID will be required upon delivery for pickup) for both domestic U.S. and international customers. Bitcoin is the only accepted form of payment for this auction. Coins for this auction will ship out by October 15th, 2015.You are bidding for the following unfunded/buyer funded coins:
FORTY 2013 LEALANA 0.1 BTC Brass Coins (Green Addresses)By bidding on this auction you are agreeing to the terms listed at: http://lealana.com/tac.phpThe winner can choose how many coins they want to pre fund. All coins not pre funded before it ships will be marked "BUYER FUNDED" with a laser mark to each coin's hologram.
THESE COINS ARE BUYER FUNDED. The winner by bidding on this auction will accept the risks involved with shipping funded coins through USPS registered mail. The coins will be valued at the price paid plus the bitcoin that is loaded on to them. Winner agrees to hold LEALANA, LLC. and myself innocent of any losses while in transit (in the small event the coin goes missing/stolen while in transit).
Any customs/VAT taxes or fees that are placed on the package while going through customs for international customers are the responsibility of the buyer/winner to pay.Please bid in the following format (no extra precision decimals): CORRECT FORMAT
"I bid 1.07 BTC" INCORRECT FORMAT
"I bid 1.074839282"Should bids come in at the last minute I will allow for the auction to extended by 15 minute increments between bids. Once the 15 minutes is up and no bidding is done after the deadline specified ABOVE, the auction will end. To be clear on the precision of the auction times in 15 minute increments we are talking about the actual MINUTE and not the seconds that are posted on the forum timestamp. Payment address: 15EFU4Lk31vzzafm38zWJVnKtGbUVJGUN2Please do not send payment to any winner address until the winner has been declared which I will post once the auction ends. If you would like a non-public payment address PM me and I will create a PGP signed address for you to send payment to. Payment is due within 72 hours from the time the auction ends. Should the winner not honor their bid and not provide payment in that 72 period the next highest bidder will be required to honor their bid. By bidding in this auction thread you agree to this stipulation. In other words, please make sure you are able to honor your bid(s) in a timely manner before you bid.I RESERVE THE RIGHT TO INVALIDATE A BID FROM NEWBIE USERS. USUALLY THIS WILL BE THE CASE IF I HAVE NEVER DONE BUSINESS WITH YOU BEFORE.AUCTION WINNER INFORMATION SUBMISSION:
*If you win, please send me (IN ONE PRIVATE MESSAGE) immediately ALL of the following information as it is needed to ship you your coins correctly/promptly:
1. The # of coins you want to prefund. Which types and how many.
2. FULL Shipping information:
FIRST AND LAST NAME
STREET ADDRESS & BUILDING/SUITE #
CITY
STATE
COUNTRY
POSTAL CODE
PHONE NUMBER
EMAIL ADDRESS
3. If you are outside of the US and want to insure prefunded coins please send me PM for details.-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJWCn/zAAoJEJqyV7+nZNgzCTUH/29hr2hcSDFONIRpBiLpLHew TzH+joLq9upE4zFVh8G0N0myquNaswes8FHwLcnSS+XLPw+JSnkBIrYiTQasBOAc /3s0a/kC7RYGlKzKXsOiTA2MK47kV/b2SeFPSY/9TF6w3n/uw6FNGYn5wGg99GJV y6kkPpnrbY+WCKhx3oEAOtfhDY+7sHTTKPavQ0BwsAd4bTwLzP9NaphujenbN5uv Iuh4yWrKt1EF1T8XWOYAu/r++ymqJCiKyu/GOmlc4J7VW5y+oTnhwcBQkDr0kZG6 NnLqc36uYKMdRDz20BSsdz2ssJnglrdXQiidlurrBPeYoietitTMfb2P6AyMQms= =HIvF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
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Auction link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1196097.msg12552767#msg12552767-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Sept 29th, 2015: Auction for FORTY 2013 LEALANA 0.1 BTC Brass Coins *****Carefully read this auction post in its entirety before bidding*****Auction ends October 2nd, 2015 at 3:00 PM Hawaiian Standard TimeMinimum bid will start at 0.83BTC. Bidding will be done in 0.01BTC increments. Shipping will be $30 for US and $50 for International bidders. This will be added to the winning bid after the auction.(ID will be required upon delivery for pickup) for both domestic U.S. and international customers. Bitcoin is the only accepted form of payment for this auction. Coins for this auction will ship out by October 15th, 2015.You are bidding for the following unfunded/buyer funded coins:
FORTY 2013 LEALANA 0.1 BTC Brass Coins (Green Addresses)By bidding on this auction you are agreeing to the terms listed at: http://lealana.com/tac.phpThe winner can choose how many coins they want to pre fund. All coins not pre funded before it ships will be marked "BUYER FUNDED" with a laser mark to each coin's hologram.
THESE COINS ARE BUYER FUNDED. The winner by bidding on this auction will accept the risks involved with shipping funded coins through USPS registered mail. The coins will be valued at the price paid plus the bitcoin that is loaded on to them. Winner agrees to hold LEALANA, LLC. and myself innocent of any losses while in transit (in the small event the coin goes missing/stolen while in transit).
Any customs/VAT taxes or fees that are placed on the package while going through customs for international customers are the responsibility of the buyer/winner to pay.Please bid in the following format (no extra precision decimals): CORRECT FORMAT
"I bid 1.07 BTC" INCORRECT FORMAT
"I bid 1.074839282"Should bids come in at the last minute I will allow for the auction to extended by 15 minute increments between bids. Once the 15 minutes is up and no bidding is done after the deadline specified ABOVE, the auction will end. To be clear on the precision of the auction times in 15 minute increments we are talking about the actual MINUTE and not the seconds that are posted on the forum timestamp. Payment address: 15EFU4Lk31vzzafm38zWJVnKtGbUVJGUN2Please do not send payment to any winner address until the winner has been declared which I will post once the auction ends. If you would like a non-public payment address PM me and I will create a PGP signed address for you to send payment to. Payment is due within 72 hours from the time the auction ends. Should the winner not honor their bid and not provide payment in that 72 period the next highest bidder will be required to honor their bid. By bidding in this auction thread you agree to this stipulation. In other words, please make sure you are able to honor your bid(s) in a timely manner before you bid.I RESERVE THE RIGHT TO INVALIDATE A BID FROM NEWBIE USERS. USUALLY THIS WILL BE THE CASE IF I HAVE NEVER DONE BUSINESS WITH YOU BEFORE.AUCTION WINNER INFORMATION SUBMISSION:
*If you win, please send me (IN ONE PRIVATE MESSAGE) immediately ALL of the following information as it is needed to ship you your coins correctly/promptly:
1. The # of coins you want to prefund. Which types and how many.
2. FULL Shipping information:
FIRST AND LAST NAME
STREET ADDRESS & BUILDING/SUITE #
CITY
STATE
COUNTRY
POSTAL CODE
PHONE NUMBER
EMAIL ADDRESS
3. If you are outside of the US and want to insure prefunded coins please send me PM for details.-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJWCn/zAAoJEJqyV7+nZNgzCTUH/29hr2hcSDFONIRpBiLpLHew TzH+joLq9upE4zFVh8G0N0myquNaswes8FHwLcnSS+XLPw+JSnkBIrYiTQasBOAc /3s0a/kC7RYGlKzKXsOiTA2MK47kV/b2SeFPSY/9TF6w3n/uw6FNGYn5wGg99GJV y6kkPpnrbY+WCKhx3oEAOtfhDY+7sHTTKPavQ0BwsAd4bTwLzP9NaphujenbN5uv Iuh4yWrKt1EF1T8XWOYAu/r++ymqJCiKyu/GOmlc4J7VW5y+oTnhwcBQkDr0kZG6 NnLqc36uYKMdRDz20BSsdz2ssJnglrdXQiidlurrBPeYoietitTMfb2P6AyMQms= =HIvF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Sept 29th, 2015: Auction for FORTY 2013 LEALANA 0.1 BTC Brass Coins *****Carefully read this auction post in its entirety before bidding*****Auction ends October 2nd, 2015 at 3:00 PM Hawaiian Standard TimeMinimum bid will start at 0.83BTC. Bidding will be done in 0.01BTC increments. Shipping will be $30 for US and $50 for International bidders. This will be added to the winning bid after the auction.(ID will be required upon delivery for pickup) for both domestic U.S. and international customers. Bitcoin is the only accepted form of payment for this auction. Coins for this auction will ship out by October 15th, 2015.You are bidding for the following unfunded/buyer funded coins:
FORTY 2013 LEALANA 0.1 BTC Brass Coins (Green Addresses)By bidding on this auction you are agreeing to the terms listed at: http://lealana.com/tac.phpThe winner can choose how many coins they want to pre fund. All coins not pre funded before it ships will be marked "BUYER FUNDED" with a laser mark to each coin's hologram.
THESE COINS ARE BUYER FUNDED. The winner by bidding on this auction will accept the risks involved with shipping funded coins through USPS registered mail. The coins will be valued at the price paid plus the bitcoin that is loaded on to them. Winner agrees to hold LEALANA, LLC. and myself innocent of any losses while in transit (in the small event the coin goes missing/stolen while in transit).
Any customs/VAT taxes or fees that are placed on the package while going through customs for international customers are the responsibility of the buyer/winner to pay.Please bid in the following format (no extra precision decimals): CORRECT FORMAT
"I bid 1.07 BTC" INCORRECT FORMAT
"I bid 1.074839282"Should bids come in at the last minute I will allow for the auction to extended by 15 minute increments between bids. Once the 15 minutes is up and no bidding is done after the deadline specified ABOVE, the auction will end. To be clear on the precision of the auction times in 15 minute increments we are talking about the actual MINUTE and not the seconds that are posted on the forum timestamp. Payment address: 15EFU4Lk31vzzafm38zWJVnKtGbUVJGUN2Please do not send payment to any winner address until the winner has been declared which I will post once the auction ends. If you would like a non-public payment address PM me and I will create a PGP signed address for you to send payment to. Payment is due within 72 hours from the time the auction ends. Should the winner not honor their bid and not provide payment in that 72 period the next highest bidder will be required to honor their bid. By bidding in this auction thread you agree to this stipulation. In other words, please make sure you are able to honor your bid(s) in a timely manner before you bid.I RESERVE THE RIGHT TO INVALIDATE A BID FROM NEWBIE USERS. USUALLY THIS WILL BE THE CASE IF I HAVE NEVER DONE BUSINESS WITH YOU BEFORE.AUCTION WINNER INFORMATION SUBMISSION:
*If you win, please send me (IN ONE PRIVATE MESSAGE) immediately ALL of the following information as it is needed to ship you your coins correctly/promptly:
1. The # of coins you want to prefund. Which types and how many.
2. FULL Shipping information:
FIRST AND LAST NAME
STREET ADDRESS & BUILDING/SUITE #
CITY
STATE
COUNTRY
POSTAL CODE
PHONE NUMBER
EMAIL ADDRESS
3. If you are outside of the US and want to insure prefunded coins please send me PM for details.-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJWCn/zAAoJEJqyV7+nZNgzCTUH/29hr2hcSDFONIRpBiLpLHew TzH+joLq9upE4zFVh8G0N0myquNaswes8FHwLcnSS+XLPw+JSnkBIrYiTQasBOAc /3s0a/kC7RYGlKzKXsOiTA2MK47kV/b2SeFPSY/9TF6w3n/uw6FNGYn5wGg99GJV y6kkPpnrbY+WCKhx3oEAOtfhDY+7sHTTKPavQ0BwsAd4bTwLzP9NaphujenbN5uv Iuh4yWrKt1EF1T8XWOYAu/r++ymqJCiKyu/GOmlc4J7VW5y+oTnhwcBQkDr0kZG6 NnLqc36uYKMdRDz20BSsdz2ssJnglrdXQiidlurrBPeYoietitTMfb2P6AyMQms= =HIvF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
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What happens if your friend Alice gives you counterfeit cash, you go to spend it in a store, and they confiscate it?
Counterfeit cash is more easily detectable, and if it's a good counterfeit it will probably fool other people too. Maybe. I've seen stores uses counterfeit detector pens quite a bit, and in a few cases run the bills through a machine (usually only larger bills). Banks routinely run cash you deposit through fancier machines and probably catch more. I don't do any of these when I get cash from a friend, and I wouldn't necessarily detect whatever it is those tests are doing. The point is, you can lose money this way, so losing money due to receiving bad Bitcoin is nothing qualitatively new. I'm not saying it is a good thing though. ..... how did we even get into counterfeiting? Because the question was what happens when you receive Bitcoins from someone and when you try to spend them you find they are blacklisted and lose money. That's very much analogous to counterfeiting. Right, this just might be the most stupid thing I've read all week. If you enter a transaction that involves any type of blacklisting it is your own undoing and you deserve it. Bitcoin exists precisely to enable monetary sovereignty & bypass any of these stupid fiat rules. Government doesn't have any right to know or be aware of the existence of any wallet in my possession therefore any coin I receive I'm free to spend at its current market value, no matter what its history is. I mean who the hell are we kiding here!? We have the USG currently trying to get their hand on every chip of all DNM and either keep it for themselves or "sell it" to their friends possibly over market price. You think they really give a damn where the coins are coming from? If you wanna use Bitpay, Coinbase, Circle and all them USG exchanges then by all means no one is stopping you or your rapist's interests but Bitcoin don't play these batty-boys games. But then don't you dare fancy you using Bitcoin. Cause Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer market and what you're doing doesn't sound like bitcoinating to me. Try telling THAT to every new bitcoin newbie and see how many of them run away. There will always be people who don't know any better and it happens to them. Bad things happen to good people all the time. You can't stop all of it. But to say "you deserve it" is a bit hard especially if they are just trying to buy something with bitcoin or convert out to buy something with fiat. If someone is not able to make proper use of Bitcoin then he shouldn't bother. I really don't care if this scares away a few newbies. Bitcoin is really not something you should sell to newbies anyway. It's really not a consumer-ready tool, at least not as it currently exists. If you are trying to buy something with bitcoin from a fiat accepting merchant: your problem, not Bitcoin's. If you depend entirely on exchanges to cash out to fiat: your problem, not Bitcoin's. You do have some very strong views. Border line religious in my opinion. How do you expect bitcoin to be adopted if NO new people come to use bit coin? it's not a perfect system and thus shouldn't be dismissed as a perfect system that newbs shouldn't use. I'm pretty sure Satoshi wanted new people to start using bitcoin. If that never happens and they keep getting turned away...what's the point of Bitcoin anymore? |
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... Bitcoin: Absolutely fungible, even when it isn't. Because No True Bitcoiner.Monero: Private and unlinkable. Can't be not-fungible. BTW, if it was illegal for merchants to accept XMR, we'd just use shapeshift or https://xmr.to/ and be on our fungibility-not-affected way!  lol gave me a good chuckle  |
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This tweet by Davout sums up the situation perfectly  Yes, that tweet may have induced my 'there are no tainted Bitcoins, only tainted institutions' epiphany. I don't like those tainted institutions any more than davout and you do. But they could not exist if Bitcoin was perfectly fungible. You'll never get a notice from Poloniex saying "Hey buddy, we don't like the guys you sent your Monero to, so we're closing your account." Polo doesn't know that; Polo can't know that (because stealth addresses and ring signatures). A few months ago, I opined that Monero enables defections which Bitcoin cannot. This conversation has helped begin putting meat on the bones of that claim, as I'm finding the concept of 'perfect' (ie, exhaustive of all use cases) fungibility an interesting distinction from Bitcoin's circular 'good enough, assuming you are already rich, lol' version. Monero could also be subject to arbitrary USG regulations. Since people are willing to go to such a stretch to come up with scenarios that supposedly undermine's Bitcoin fungibility then how about this: Merchants are forbidden to accept Monero: since we cannot tell where you money comes from it is not legal and you should use the transparent alternative. "You don't have anything to hide anyway, do you?" So rather than blacklists certain "tainted" coins they would effectively blacklist the use of an anonymous currency. Now that wouldn't make Monero non fungible would it? OR they could use the following 6 words: "Please send us your view key." |
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losing money due to receiving bad Bitcoin is nothing qualitatively new. I'm not saying it is a good thing though.
"Bad Bitcoin"? Wtf... I know you have some Monero to sell but this is beyond ridiculous It took me a second, but I now appreciate the #bitcoin-assets ' there are no tainted Bitcoins, only tainted institutions' POV. I love the smugness of that serene maxim, and look forward to the day when it has practical value for those of us with <100 BTC. OTOH, I believe (smooth will have to back me up with The Science) that Bitcoins are not perfectly fungible at the protocol level because they are uniquely identifiable, and thus may be discriminated against (ie, considered "bad") by individuals, if not in the aggregate. AFAIK, the Monero protocol couldn't tell "good" coins from "bad" ones even if it wanted to, so its coins are perfectly fungible (no matter what, and without need to invoke rosy assumptions about the future of crypto vs fiat). Bitcoin Black/Whitelists: technically trivial to implement and enforce, commonly done in status quo (eg stolen Evolution coins at BTCE) Monero Black/Whitelists: technically impossible to implement or enforce (is it true?) Not impossible but very expensive and tedious. Consider the black/white marbles in a bag "game". https://lab.getmonero.org/pubs/MRL-0001.pdf |
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Obviously I cannot prove it but I am confident much more Bitcoin moves OTC than on exchanges.
I''m not. If it were it would show up in blockchain analysis, at least under the category of "unknown". It doesn't. Most activity is fairly easy to categorize (speculation, mining, legal and illegal payments). Certainly there is some that isn't but not some massive hidden economy that is larger than all the known exchanges. It just isn't so Where can one find such analysis? How do you differentiate legal & illegal payments from OTC trading activities? I don't know, maybe someone can point to some, but I've seen various reports published once or twice a year for the past few years. The way you differentiate is by identifying what you can, and it seems a lot can be identified with reasonable confidence (probably not perfectly). If there is a huge swath of unknown that can't be then you ask these questions, but that has really never been the case. Even gross statistics like coin movement on the blockchain relative to reported exchange volume shows a reasonably tight relationship over time. If there were massive amounts of money fleeing capital controls and FATCA now, that relationship would be break down (unless you think this was going on three years ago when FATCA wasn't in force at all and Bitcoin was $20). Instead it hasn't really broken down. Don't buy all the hype. Some of it might turn out to be true, but be skeptical. Where do you get these numbers? I just did a "gross calculation" and a quick roundup of major exchanges + approximate total of minor ones brings me to about 3,500,000 BTC in volume over the last 30 days. That includes OKCoin's obviously bogus 1,850,000 reported volume. This chart seems to indicate the blockchain sees an average of 250,000 BTC volume per day. 7,500,000 over 30 days. https://blockchain.info/charts/estimated-transaction-volume?showDataPoints=false×pan=&show_header=true&daysAverageString=7&scale=0&address= I think it's clear there's a lot left to be accounted for. Yes there is a lot to be accounted for. But just because there are transaction on the network does not mean that it isn't BitcoinBillionaire sending funds to himself on the chain to make it appear that those transactions are legitimate. There are some % of that left over volume. |
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Bitcoin exists precisely to enable monetary sovereignty & bypass any of these stupid fiat rules. It remains to be seen whether that ever actually happens. The way Bitcoin is used today it is predominantly nonsense, given that most usage is exchanges which are all regulated by fiat rules (except, somewhat, BTC-E which also seems to have issues with fungibility anyway), Coinbase/Circle, and Bitpay. The rest is negligible. I agree with you about the original stated goals, but it hasn't worked out that way at all after 6 years. I don't rule out that it may still evolve in that direction but it seems a bit of a long shot given the high degree of influence that the pro-regulation crowd has in the ecosystem. It also seems plausible that the next adoption surge, if it happens, will be Wall Street money which will also be very pro-regulation. It seems to me the predominant use of Bitcoin today is holding. Then I guess it's a toss up between general black market activities and speculative trading. If we're to believe Trace Mayer the notion that Bitcoin is already used worldwide to escape capital controls is understated. He himself suggests that a OTC trading desk in Switzerland trades more BTC on average than most major Bitcoin exchanges to help clients circumvent FATCA regulations. All of this to illustrate that the amount of Bitcoin that moves through Coinbase/Circle/Bitpay/Bitstamp is, in fact, negligible if we are to account for the whole of Bitcoin's economy. At the very least we can be confident saying that was is publicized and readily available to the naked eye is not the "predominant" way Bitcoin is being used. Therefore I'm very tentative in putting any value into the rest of your statement. Yes, I recognize that your average bitcointalk & reddit users might not be privy to actual legitimate use cases of Bitcoin at this stage of the game. That is where the figurative attempt to put round bitcoin pegs into fiat square holes creates such confusion and this illusion that Bitcoin's success is impeded by "blacklists" and "tainted coin". Of course this illusion did not spawn on its own and it is the careful fabrication of fiat institutions and banking parasites interested in either capturing Bitcoin and its users or straight out perpetuating FUD in an attempt to undermine the users faith. Link where trace made that claim? |
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It seems that bitcoin will be regulated similar to cash at first. Then at a later stage, when the blockchain trace technology get more mature, there will be a public police database that is open to every one, certain coins might have a flag in this database, thus will not be accepted by any formal merchant application that is aware of this database. So every thief can not spend his coins and they all reduce the coin supply thus contribute to the rising value of bitcoin  But since there is almost no way to prove that you lost your bitcoin, it is very difficult to flag certain coins at all. Take for example the Bitpay loss of 5000 coins, they have no way to prove that those 5000 coins are not under their control, thus it is almost impossible for insurance company and police to register those coins as tainted, otherwise everyone would just claim the coins in top 100 address are stolen and get all those coins flaged  From this point of view, legally it is almost impossible to blacklist certain coins But since when do governments obey their own laws? No, they don't obey another government's law, so it is likely coins blacklisted in one country will be totally fine in another country. Unless world's government all united (Is that possible?), the black list just makes the coin going for a round trip abroad I agree there is a slight possibility will occur where black lists in one country are different than another. I expect a pretty decent spectrum of blacklists. There are so many variables that I would be surprised if the US tries to impose its will on other countries in terms of what they think is an appropriate "BLACK LIST". |
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It seems that bitcoin will be regulated similar to cash at first. ... {more stuff} This is already completely wrong right from the start of your post. At first (i.e. right now), Bitcoin is being regulated such that participants see a need to trace the blockchain and identify suspicious coins (or suspicious uses of coins) and take what the deem to be appropriate action on the basis of that information. Businesses do not routinely trace cash, outside of some major criminal investigations as mentioned earlier on this thread. That Bitcoin is not functioning in the real world the way your mental model suggests that it should ought to give you reason to reexamine your model. I think fiat is an exception as it is the currency of the status quo. Do we really think governments want people to question the fungibility of their fiat paper currencies? I don't think so. That's probably why Bitcoin has not been able to stay under the radar as like the USD has in terms of people tracking it etc. Authorities track it from time to time but I do not believe they do as much as they will do it (% wise to the total supply) with bitcoin. |
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What happens if your friend Alice gives you counterfeit cash, you go to spend it in a store, and they confiscate it?
Counterfeit cash is more easily detectable, and if it's a good counterfeit it will probably fool other people too. Maybe. I've seen stores uses counterfeit detector pens quite a bit, and in a few cases run the bills through a machine (usually only larger bills). Banks routinely run cash you deposit through fancier machines and probably catch more. I don't do any of these when I get cash from a friend, and I wouldn't necessarily detect whatever it is those tests are doing. The point is, you can lose money this way, so losing money due to receiving bad Bitcoin is nothing qualitatively new. I'm not saying it is a good thing though. ..... how did we even get into counterfeiting? Because the question was what happens when you receive Bitcoins from someone and when you try to spend them you find they are blacklisted and lose money. That's very much analogous to counterfeiting. Right, this just might be the most stupid thing I've read all week. If you enter a transaction that involves any type of blacklisting it is your own undoing and you deserve it. Bitcoin exists precisely to enable monetary sovereignty & bypass any of these stupid fiat rules. Government doesn't have any right to know or be aware of the existence of any wallet in my possession therefore any coin I receive I'm free to spend at its current market value, no matter what its history is. I mean who the hell are we kiding here!? We have the USG currently trying to get their hand on every chip of all DNM and either keep it for themselves or "sell it" to their friends possibly over market price. You think they really give a damn where the coins are coming from? If you wanna use Bitpay, Coinbase, Circle and all them USG exchanges then by all means no one is stopping you or your rapist's interests but Bitcoin don't play these batty-boys games. But then don't you dare fancy you using Bitcoin. Cause Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer market and what you're doing doesn't sound like bitcoinating to me. Try telling THAT to every new bitcoin newbie and see how many of them run away. There will always be people who don't know any better and it happens to them. Bad things happen to good people all the time. You can't stop all of it. But to say "you deserve it" is a bit hard especially if they are just trying to buy something with bitcoin or convert out to buy something with fiat. |
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I wasn't aware of that. I assume that only goes one level deep. In other words, if I have stolen coins (.5 BTC) and normal coins (.5 BTC)
and I send that to another address of mine, and then send you 1 BTC, you can't separate out the stolen coins from the normal coins.
that is true indeed. You can separate them until the two are spent together, since they are separate outputs as explained in the last few posts. Once they are spent together, they can't be separated. What I expect will likely happen in a system with widespread regulation and blacklist once they are mixed (spent) together is that you would then have to send the 1.0 to some government (or other third party service) address, along with your identifying information, and you would get the 0.5 clean back. That would be the end of bitcoin, since there's going to be some amount of taint going on almost all the time. Can't see it happening. Agreed, you will get people that are unlucky and receive coins from an exchange that did not support blacklisting, and then that user will have effectively lost money. So effectively you are saying that if people using an unregulated exchange that is not compliant they will lose money, and therefore the end of Bitcoin? Is that really what I just read? If I get Bitcoins privately from my friend Alice and her coins had some taint and I then used those Bitcoins to buy a T shirt on a web shop and then they tried to cash those Bitcoins out to their bank account with Bitpay and Bitpay told me I don't get my T shirt but if I send them a scan of my passport I can get half my money back, then either it would be the end of Bitcoin or it would be the end of people using payment services. How about merchants will stop using BitPay because fiat will be.. ya know... dead. Agreed fiat is destined to be dead. But if they just come up with a new fiat currency ...?....the other shoe has not dropped so the whole fiat is dead scenario is ...possibly a ways away...( within next 1-3 years) |
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Just as there are oddballs out there willing to do stress tests for no particular reason, there'll be armies of people looking to taint as many coins as possible with little drops of evil. I really can't see how they'll be able to prevent endless dilution.
Bitcoin would eventually end with barely any "clear coins". This tainting and blacklisting thing is as dumb as it gets. We need to make all Bitcoins the same, otherwise some Bitcoins may be more valued than others. We need more privacy as well. I agree that having coins be perceived by others (businesses etc.) sucks. But it is what it is. If you want more privacy added to bitcoin core...write your local core dev representative and ask them to do just that. |
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What's the lesson here?
Never leave your crypto on an exchange for extended periods of time. Even if it could go to 0 value in fiat terms.
If you don't hold the private key to your coins, you have no coins.
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Fat Tay Choon went to the Mining Academy in Brazil, east of Satoshi's yurt, where Gavin was kidnapped by the CIA's goons and forced to pretend fucking an anonymous decentralized biscuit—better than all the fish in the Pacific Ocean—but also to defray leeches intelligently with ECDSA fighting qubits for 16.8 dree12, or Phinnaeus must fling toilets towards psy‐ops, without potato smoothies mixed with fried chicken wings from BitMunchies.com, urbanchickennj.com, and Popeye's Bitcoin wallet, which deleted Satoshi's premine ability to cheer very victoriously, none like Butterfly Labs better enabled, but also Pirate crashing AIR applications without the express use of interest-free scams, conspiring with fraudulent sockpuppets and PPTs and..., you troll-herding piece of Shiitake mushroom, go lick Goat's horns until Theymos admits to having a quite erotic fetish involving honey badgers wearing thongs composed of soggy burlap waffles dangling from cosmic linoleum-based iphones running quantum chips explodes spewing deadly acid! b!z screamed out "Light is bright like...like... stars." When Markjamrobin opens the isolated window, he sees three pigs together in bed. Kouye and myself laugh when chinese food falls the impact kills Obama Bin ladin whoever thinks he may be terrorist, is correct but hates the bitcoin logo. Earth has snakes. Currently, the other species have decimated to tiny groups called "marko solo" whatever time it all comes and ends? However, Bitcoin's acidity level dipped causing catastrophic double-spends!
Meanwhile, AntiOps was confused by the awkward change to his penis melting uncontrollably. Vanilla Ice perfume spritzed onto cheese and greasy slime covered with babies boiled in a smelly old heatsink. But it tasted like shit therefore it poisoned his blood although he did survive. Reproductive organisms attacked the internal testicle which caused terrible congestion somehow. Evolution then terminated the smelly old business thank the inability of AntiOps to lock Satoshi's thread. In a transactional forum there was a debate about hacking unprotected accounts, however the debate shortly ended.
Phinnaeus Gage, king pluto, duke of the people. Returned one of his loans that he fraudulently claimed without declaring intentionally. Although this was bullshit. Earth was hit by a meteor which cause catastrophic events which cause people to cause mass destruction by proxy voting it was documented recently on the news that oranges are disguised anti-gravity pockets which have giant bears attacked Zeus because bitcoin accidentally crashed to Mars which created spaceships and aliens who pretended being humans wearing hats on their toes.
Altcoin suck on apples and oranges too. Megacoin is the most shit sucker of apples and melons ever. Most people love to troll others. Evolution is a slow process which created forks. It is beneficial to wash your feet because it distributes bacteria and oil, notwithstanding the beneficial attributes which are how chocolate arouses some of the miners brains. Today was an abysmal event which caused many abnormal but not smart bitcoiners because many of them are cute animals who were insane because of excessive oreo consumption. One watermelon is not love how people try me explotation Maybe Heisenberg Breaking bad control guy director or masturbation my time vampire drinks urine not lemon tek and water supernatural.
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The universe is populated with many planets which were destroyed by pirateat40. Cyborgs then warped to the zoo and ate mushroom with a aerospace technician. Bitcoin has used a lot resources from peoples although people smell like melons.
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This disappoints satan more than satoshi because he ate hydrochloric pools and he fucked whores who are sick shemales shemales shemales BANGCOCK! God smited non-believers with dicks on a stick. They shat together sitting upside-down flicking birdies. Baezl'bub slept with Hitler inside a bomb ticking furiously and hodling. That was awesome. Bitmit made belt so that walruses can shit on his dick and eat mushroom full of wonderful shit, he HODL'd BTCs and Dogecoin with a succubus sperm from first blowjob stories.
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Miracles happen like cannibals spitting sinew and elephants which innocent love and shit has never fucked up! Dank has killed bysexuals... wait, when did Karpeles said/say McDonald's sucks? Colonel Tom sex-machine The 3.14159265358th must fook anything that goes into a section. Beaware of spellcheckers. Fantômas portuguese are sobriquet of Fernão who called them Coads-nigs! They say we are azoth, biblical tittynopes who can't mine the janiceps'. He biblically took Rosenzweig and ended this game. And then wanked, wanked clitoris next door. This was done. Moreover, crack was rapidly dephosphorylated due to complications anhidrotically, metaphorically whores go mooooooooo and ahhhhhhhhhhhhh while jon snow watch has ended this thread for good.
Not... Actually, maybe futuristically, Vod (MIA) sailing CASASCIUS up Padma Lakshmi's waxed butt and... Nevermind, but acknowledging that Gavin held security. This marks, categorically, that will create scientific controvertist of global heliolatry problems indistinguishably noticeable filipino heritage, unbeknownst to Slenderman XT phenomena. GLEB sucked smoothie's brains using juicy zombies, dicks, Popsicles, and alien vaginas to rotten flesh of Vod. Meanwhile, giant marsupials are having suicidal sex appeal for four tentacles, watching child whoopee. Therefore, vegetables are unpretentiously super[...]docious. Fruits are rotten potatoes, avouchment vouched x10 malware because aliens kidnapped JarJar, mercilessly LeFodorliar and Gleb Gamow lived days along seashore, Theymos abused his Authoritah by forcing a purple pill To Fly! Serendipitously, awsome! Then I started UFOing on their ass, savagely. But, it is impeccable to realize I farted psychedelic asparagus smoothies. However, Mexico is shit and... Rephrase that, corporations syria declared terrorists irreproachable because malevolence misappropriates monetary suffrage suggesting termination.
Meanwhile, yogurt spill has begun to fall onto houses and cars, hawkishly attempting to grab two crayons, inserting phallic Popsicles® into Theymos' abysm until... POOP! The excruciating pain took aeons to appreciate plethoric folliculitis silvestris poop generator. Why nidificate the indigenous spirit called "erection"? Prepossessingly, pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis a discomfortable endoplasmic tumescent pineapple tree branch rectally QuickSeller escrow. Involution, presumptuously titin pop up inconsiderately - Tuesday - when pokemon (Pokémon)'s Pikachu flashbacked borders dementia caused horrendous pain inside Agumon's PocketPussy™.
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Pythons and anacondas don't squirt unless you got into buns coin phlegm on their tongues. Why did GLEB touch my vault extravagantly? I galumphed after midnight parade on my horse galloping in reverse to realize "holey-moley". Forgotten equines maybe because MONERO
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Yeah, I mostly see Vitalik writing articles for the various fake news magazines that him and his friends manage. I saw him in a video interview saying he would leave Ethereum if it stopped receiving support.
He would leave Ethereum with a lack of support - rightfully so! How many valuable articles did you provide to the community over the last 3 years? I have been around geniuses all my life. Vitalik is one of them. I had the chance to meet him once, in person, in 2013. Walk a mile in someones shoes before judging him... Vitalik is technical genius, maybe not the greatest accountant or company CEO - but what do you expect from a 21 yrs old guy... still a genius! Perhaps he is. But that doesn't mean he is a great business man. Sounds like he squandered the funds and is making excuses as to why they can't do this or that. |
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