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We all must draw our conclusions from what has happened to bASIC "customers". I was quite active recently on this forum and I think I've spotted quite a large number of problems. Let me try to help you avoid future troubles following step by step considerations below:
1. There is nothing wrong with investing in ASIC startups as soon as you understand that you are investor, not customer!
2. There will be a lot of companies manufacturing ASICs, including bitcoin ASICs, by the end of 2013. It is just another question how successful their products will be and to what extend their specification will correspond to what was originally announced. Most of products will be complete failures.
3. Don't be greedy. Greed is the worst possible advisor of inexperienced investors.
4. Get rid of all your unprotected investments! Risk/reward ratio for unprotected investments is very unreasonable at this stage. Unprotected investments are all payments you made to an ASIC startup other than with a credit card not older than the 3 months chargeback window.
5. You should contact your credit card issuing bank and find out what is the maximum period of a payment you can request chargeback for! Be absolutely confident about that! About three months is the standard but your might be different.
6. You can get rid of an unprotected investment either by selling it or by requesting a refund from the ASIC startup company. I'm not aware of a third method.
7. Of all the unprotected investments the worst possible one is paying with bitcoins. I understand that this a bad advertisement for bitcoins but those are the merchants that refuse full bitcoin refunds that make it to appear that way! This should not be allowed by the bitcoin community if we want bitcoin to be addopted as a commercially viable currency!
8. ASIC startups strongly oppose full bitcoin refunds as they are a big profit source. Firstly, because bitcoin is still unregulated as a currency and as a method of payment and secondly, because receiving bitcoins and later refunding in $, gives those companies free option call to profit from BTC /$ exchange rates differences between payment and refund dates. Of course, what is profit for them is a loss for you!
9. If the chargeback window is about to close ask for a refund. If refund is not honored by the merchant within 48 hours then contact credit card issuer and request a chargeback!
10. If you successfully got your money back you might want consider paying for a pre-order again.
11. Don't be fooled by someone yelling at you that you'll lose your spot on the queue!
12. Maximum time loss might be couple of weeks. On the other hand, you can win big. If your ASIC is finally delivered you might find out that it does not match the announced specifications. If you are lucky you may have couple of month for finding such discrepancies and still be under the protection of chargeback window!
Good Luck
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Every well respected CEO makes bets... yeah right..  Yeah, right. Good luck waiting until the end of 2013!? |
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especially as we get closer to dispatch of ASICs.
Uh... Quite on the contrary. After the last announcement we are back to square 1! BFL strategy is simple. They started as a scam, no doubt about that. In the middle of the distance of scam life cycle they tried hard to become gray but they failed several times. If they'll end as a scam depends entirely on how many customers will request refunds. That situation, my friend, is a classic ponzi scheme! The only difference is that they do not pay interest on the funds they've attracted from their creditors (pardon me, customers). |
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It's taking forever now. When is BFL going to deliver, in 2013? No one can tell. Only sure thing is that their CEO (Inaba) is willing to take bets now that BFL will deliver something by the end of 2013! |
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Companies don't like to show off their failures, so they would (understandably) want to be light on details. Not if they burn other peoples money! |
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Other players must also bet all their money or surrender.
Both players are not in the same weight category. One of them has succeeded in collecting tenths of millions from greedy monkeys and can easily "Va-bank" every opposition now. He has nothing to lose except his customers' money. But hey... This is a risk his customers have accepted right? |
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I dont understand why so many peoples are fighting against BFL ! Really? It shouldn't be so difficult! "Give us your money now and we shall deliver something whenever we have something to deliver"... Well, you say this is not a scam?! |
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Ah nice, I found the bet I was thinking of. You'd better find a way how to design ASIC chips, Inaba? Or your customers will have to wait another year while you are trying to find a bet you're thinking of! |
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You do realise that if BFL is legit, you're going to look the biggest clown in the whole Bitcoin community for a very long time...
What if BFL is a scam? A scam worth 1/4 of the total bitcoin market cap? Wow... That may easily become the end of bitcoin?! |
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BitPay is the processor, so if you really have a qualm about it you should take it up with them... Why? I have no contract with BitPay. BFL have! My contract is with BFL. BFL have FULL control how BitPay handles BTC payments BFL gets, including the % of BTC => $ conversions. |
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.. Now i want my BTC back because ----? Because ---- you didn't deliver what I paid you for! Month after month after month after month nothing but baloney! |
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So you get the same ammount BTC back from BFL.... What then will happen is that you will exchange them at current market price?! You seem to forget that I had THE SAME BTC amount in my pocket BEFORE sending them to BFL. Since this SAME amount in BTC is my money I can do whatever I want whenever I want BEFORE or AFTER the BFL episode! |
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Good grief. The BFL website clearly puts the *price* in USD - and lists Bitcoin as one of the payment *methods*. No, julz. Wrong assumption. If I use credit card, paypal, or bank wire to pay USD I'd use different methods to transfer same currency. What you fail to understand is that BTC is a different story. In addition to being a different payment "method" BTC is also a different currency. I have clearly shown, placing a screenshot above, that the BFL invoice is DENOMINATED both in $ and BTC! |
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By your logic anyone with a BFL order paid in BTC can ask for a refund of the BTC and then instantly replace (if desired) the order at a lower BTC cost pocketing the BTC.[/quote] 1. Let me use the favorite argument of BFL cheerleaders - If I ask for a refund I lose my spot in the queue. 2. How do I pocket the BTC if I get a refund of the same amount in BTC what I've originally paid? Everyone gets a free OPTION call!! [/quote] You don't have idea what an OPTION call is, do you? What is the strike price of such an option for me as a customer if I pay BTC and then get refund for the EXACTLY same amount in BTC? There is free OPTION call only for FBL if they are allowed to refund USD for purchases made in BTC! |
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BFL never saw even one bitcoin from a customer. This is fully under BFL control and how do they setup their account with Bitpay. BFL creates an invoice for a price in USD This statement does not correspond to actual situation:  |
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Assume that buying stuff with your BTC was like selling your BTC for USD. I can not assume something that is incorrect. I didn't sell my BTC for USD. BFL did. I don't have any contract with BitPay. BFL have. This is why only BFL can sell BTC to BitPay! I don't know how you are reasonning, but for me, it was clear that it was refundable in USD. Read, read, read... I thought you have read all my reasoning so far and this is why you are annoyed?! For me, it was clear that I'm paying in BTC and it was refundable in the currency and amount that was originally paid. |
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Please just assume and stop whinning here, it's kinda anoying ! Assume what? |
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You didn't know where the BTC price was going to be 6 months ago. Neither did BFL. Simple. If they can't control currency exchange risk, they shouldn't have accepted payments in BTC in the first place! BFL converted their BTC to USD as soon as they received each order to protect themselves against a BTC price drop. Well, they should have protected themselves against a BTC price rise as well? It is not my fault if they've speculated and didn't do that! |
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