@mczarnek - the biggest problem I see with your proposal as that each forger is being asked for a "random" number - how are you going to be sure of that?
I think that for the "ticket" (which currently is looking to be the forging hash of the block 1440 in the future) could have extra entropy by something more simple like the sum of the number of bytes in each of the 1440 blocks together with the # of transactions (and maybe several other such things so that trying to "construct a block" to benefit becomes so difficult it wouldn't be attempted).
I think also adding this amount of entropy helps because your ticket "isn't" just the forging hash (which could lead to people calling out *rigged* if a forger skips its turn).
I'm not understanding why this would make it difficult to construct a exploitative block. |
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It's ok. Perhaps the way it's wasted is not ok, but non the less it's ok. If income tax were removed, then you probably would have a lower paycheck anyway.
Rofl. It reminds me of the first few minutes of this. |
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so here is a serious issue that i want to get out there and get people thinking about and that is bid orders stored locally rather than on the blokchain. these orders would be present but invisible to anyone except the person placing them (in their client). what do you guys think would be the net effect of these? it seems like they would hold significant advantages to the users so would there be any point at all in publicly displaying your bids? wouldnt this be a sort of market failure where its in the individuals interest to hide his bids and asks but in the communities interest for them to be public? what would cause some people (preferably most people) to display their bids publicly?
Some times people place bids and asks for psych. effects. Would it be possible to offer a choice of hidden/not hidden. i don't think its possible not to offer that choice. |
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invest 1.02 BTC to (Anon136), through escrow
the transaction ID is b86b96b1002be0911e06cc9fad5d371d5238a2cafb584e390eab6f3bc3709b75
thanks
the beautiful thing about using digital signatures is that i don't actually have to know who sent what  and yep you have 30 confirmations |
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No escrow,don't Believe IPO
i promise there is escrow |
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so here is a serious issue that i want to get out there and get people thinking about and that is bid orders stored locally rather than on the blokchain. these orders would be present but invisible to anyone except the person placing them (in their client). what do you guys think would be the net effect of these? it seems like they would hold significant advantages to the users so would there be any point at all in publicly displaying your bids? wouldnt this be a sort of market failure where its in the individuals interest to hide his bids and asks but in the communities interest for them to be public? what would cause some people (preferably most people) to display their bids publicly?
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OK, everybody, your favorite dictator rickyjames here, flapping my gums wildly once more.We've coming up on 2500 pages on this Bitcointalk thread. What an accomplishment!!! Woo Hoo!!! We have a new forum that is Our Very Own at nxtforum.org . Go ahead, enter it into your address bar of your browser, it works and it's a Simple Machine forum just like this one at Bitcointalk. You'll feel right at home. I've created a thread there called NXT Pub Thread - 2500 More Pages Here Or Bust http://107.170.117.237/index.php/topic,91.0.htmlI propose that 2Kool lock this thread at page 2500 and we do a mass migration over there. It would be nice, neat, poetic closure. And a new beginning. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUQbLz7AoYcC'mon, everybody. Think Nike. Just do it. I don't agree about closing this thread thats the beautiful thing about having an authority. no need to bicker and argue over it for a fortnight. its up to 2kool4skewl to decide. incidentally i agree that he probably shouldn't close the thread but either decision is better than arguing about it.  |
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Why does predicting who will be the author of the block help you? Because you can change around your nxt in order to make sure that the hash of the account balances leads to you being the author?
precisely Also not sure why it's 0.1 nxt per guess? Why actually move around the funds? Why not just do it all offchain, use your own hashing function and when you find one that works, then you do the actual transaction?
because you have to move your nxt to the account that you believe will be the one to win 1440 blocks in the future. transaction fees are 0.1 NXT
And you do have to predict what the account balances 1440 steps into the future will be because it's a hash of those account balances that determines who will forge and small changes to those account balances should lead to big changes in the hash output, right?
no its a hash of the public key used to author the block + the generation signature of the previous block. account balances only multiply the threshold for acceptable block submission. if you were able to accurately guess every single one of the nxt 1440 block authors than you would only need 1 nxt in the account to forge with that account because you could calculate the most efficient private key and so wouldnt need the stake multiplier. Something obviously hasn't clicked yet.. heading to bed hopefully it will tonight, thanks Anon 136.
its not easy to wrap ones head around, keep asking questions, its clear from the sorts of questions you are asking that you are capable of understanding. |
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As I understand it, the way Nxt currently picks the next person to forge a block is that it hashes the account balances of the accounts that forged 1440 blocks ago, right? Somehow this hash is weighted based upon the amount in people's accounts, right?
It has nothing to do with 1440 blocks ago - the next "best" forging account is according to the hash of the last forged block (which is weighted by the account balance). Ok, so the reason for making someone wait for 1440 blocks before adding new coins to their forging power is because in that way a superpowerful machines can't shift their balance to make sure that they will be forging during the next block, right? Because there is no way that you can predict that far into the future what the account balances will be, because you'd have to know how everyone else will be shifting around their money within the system, right? Why wait 1440 blocks? Wouldn't 100 be sufficient? Also I thought there was a propagation delay before everyone else saw the next block and all the updated balances right? Otherwise, why wait 10 blocks for confirmation? Why am I not confirmed next block? no 100 wouldn't be nearly enough. (im skeptical that 1440 is enough if i had my way it would have been 10080 because there is so much at stake) there wouldn't be enough permutation in that space. You have to understand the incentives at work here. if you can front run like that you gain control of the blockchain for ever until we notice and roll back the chain to before it happened. so there would be incentives to guess over and over and over. you could even analyze the network to see what stake forged and how often, what times of day certain stake forged. all sorts of novel ways can be imagined to analyze that data to make your guesses better. I thought the whole idea behind a hash was that small changes now make wild changes in the future, right? So one person moves his account balance and the forging power assigned to that machine changes 1440 blocks later, so unless you predicted every single block correctly for the next 1440 blocks and you can't change your account balance fast enough to change this 1440 blocks into the future, right? Because in order to change when you forge, you have to know what all the account balances are going to look like 1440 blocks into the future and move your balance to make sure that hash works out to be your machine, right? Or is the idea that you can selectively not include transactions into the current block in order to change who forges next block? The only thing you have to predict correctly is who will be the author every single one of the next 1440 blocks. (a difficult task no doubt considering you need to pay 0.1 nxt for each guess) You dont have to predict correctly what transactions will be in those blocks. This is important because it protects against gaming from transactions to be specifically tailored to allow you to author future blocks. |
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If direct investments pick up again (they've stagnated) we'll most definitely implement a 1.2-1.3x multiplier to earnings. We're not closing off stage 1 or splitting it up.
Specifically promoting direct investments now that escrow is available is shady to say the least. Obviously this plays off of peoples greed and fears. "I could make more money if I pay him directly!" and "He's offering escrow now so that must mean he is legit". Rewarding people for taking unnecessary risks is foolish as it perpetuates the mentality that leads to many people being scammed. If anything the people that payed into escrow should be rewarded more for making smart decisions. This is how real life works. Smart decisions are more rewarding than stupid ones. yes this bears repeating. JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE OFFERS ESCROW DOES NOT MEAN HES LEGITplease make smart decisions guys |
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But you need more than soundbytes, you need speakers who breath NXT. Don't look to existing Bitcoin people, everybody I know is crazy overwhelmed with projects right now, you need to self-organize and make this happen.
Speaking in public is not impossible or even difficult, and I'm sure many of your stakeholders do it for work all the time. Time to pull them out, rip the masks off a few of you and put your name on the line because if you aren't willing to, nobody else is going to do it for you.
My name is Ricky Roberson and I'm ready to put my name on the line and speak out for NXT anytime. I already have. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1oqFRROW7MI thought you did really well, watched it last week. Thank you. I am working on a rather lengthy essay that I am going to put up in the next 48 hours on the new NXT Simple Machine forum site that I will PM you a link to when posted. This is on an aspect of the NXT / Bitcoin dynamic I haven't seen discussed anywhere else that I believe you will be extremely interested in. Please let me know what you think of it when you read it, possibly it might be of interest to cover in your podcast. Best wishes. My one critique is when you're at a bitcoin conference, it would be better to say that NXT does many of the same things as Bitcoin, plus more, so Bitcoin is like a Toyota and NXT is like a Benz (or something) - You want to imply they are seperate but equal, each with its own advantages (bitcoins primary is that it was first and is biggest). I sorta feel like you came off as saying NXT is better than Bitcoin and right now thats hard to argue objectively. Also consider your audience. Your job is education, which is best without attitude. I agree I came off too strongly and must moderate that in the future. My public speaking skills are a little rusty and haven't been used for a while but I am willing to get them out of the closet and get back into the saddle and start a continuous improvement process. I also probably came off a bit too strong in the ad copy I wrote up for the conference brochure : http://nxt.sx/images/resources/NXT-Brochure-4.pdfThe Texas Bitcoin Conference was my initial plunge into real-world involvement with cryptocurrencies and it was a HUGE eye-opener to me. In any event, I am a great believer in trying to improve and follow good advice such as yours, and I will. This is the right attitude to have, it's a learning experiance - people like you and I self select to represent these technologies who have no trustworthy representatives, and it's something you get better at over time. I'm happy to help you guys so long as you're receptive to my guidance, I think I have a pretty valuable perspective as a pioneer user who is working on all the platforms, as well as being a giant complainer about user experience issues. i for one value your input very highly. thanks for taking the time to stop by our dank dark little corner of the web here. |
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As I understand it, the way Nxt currently picks the next person to forge a block is that it hashes the account balances of the accounts that forged 1440 blocks ago, right? Somehow this hash is weighted based upon the amount in people's accounts, right?
It has nothing to do with 1440 blocks ago - the next "best" forging account is according to the hash of the last forged block (which is weighted by the account balance). Ok, so the reason for making someone wait for 1440 blocks before adding new coins to their forging power is because in that way a superpowerful machines can't shift their balance to make sure that they will be forging during the next block, right? Because there is no way that you can predict that far into the future what the account balances will be, because you'd have to know how everyone else will be shifting around their money within the system, right? Why wait 1440 blocks? Wouldn't 100 be sufficient? Also I thought there was a propagation delay before everyone else saw the next block and all the updated balances right? Otherwise, why wait 10 blocks for confirmation? Why am I not confirmed next block? no 100 wouldn't be nearly enough. (im skeptical that 1440 is enough if i had my way it would have been 10080 because there is so much at stake) there wouldn't be enough permutation in that space. You have to understand the incentives at work here. if you can front run like that you gain control of the blockchain for ever until we notice and roll back the chain to before it happened. so there would be incentives to guess over and over and over. you could even analyze the network to see what stake forged and how often, what times of day certain stake forged. all sorts of novel ways can be imagined to analyze that data to make your guesses better. |
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Who are you trying to appeal to? Maybe people on this forum but few others would stay past the first few clips. You guys need to create your own content. I have loved what Kris has done with the NXT Minute, I think its the perfect mix of update and invitation. It's obvious you guys are doing stuff and making decisions, the community is active and growing and you're one of the leading players in the 2.0 game. But you need more than soundbytes, you need speakers who breath NXT. Don't look to existing Bitcoin people, everybody I know is crazy overwhelmed with projects right now, you need to self-organize and make this happen. Speaking in public is not impossible or even difficult, and I'm sure many of your stakeholders do it for work all the time. Time to pull them out, rip the masks off a few of you and put your name on the line because if you aren't willing to, nobody else is going to do it for you. My name is Ricky Roberson and I'm ready to put my name on the line and speak out for NXT anytime. I already have. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1oqFRROW7Mgood to put a face to the name! |
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a long time ago there was actually a HUGE miner, something like >10% of the total network who never included transactions in his block. the suspicion was that it was a botnet.
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If you'd rather, I can interview the guy who is representing you at Coinsummit, or Kris. I don't think it was a very good interview, were you talking to people on chat between answers, or typing our your response before speaking? I was trying to figure that out lol.
yea i was just trying to organize my thoughts. stepheny said it was fine because it would just be cut out anyway. sorry about making more work for you. by the guy at coin summit you mean tai zen? No. I think Tai Zen is trying to help but his presentation (prison or freedom) comes off a bit salesy since he is a sales guy. You guys need evangelists like Ethereum has who can paint the big picture and help people see the ways they could use NXT to make their lives better. Pursue any use-cases you can like crazy, those are what will make your platform actually matter - early interesting and successful usecases. did you ever see my interviews with tai zen? I did. I don't think it helped that he kept the same intro and outtro in unpolished form for all the segments of the interview. I did that once got tons of complaints and it was way shorter, much more edited and audio only  It's interesting watching your progress, you focus on very unimportant features like the power of the computer needed to mine. That's totally irrelevant since your system can't give the forging reward to more than a single person, so you have all the same problematic incentives towards centralization and pooling of forging as Bitcoin does, just lacking the reward to actually make people bother with it. If you had a dividend solution where mining rewards were given to ALL holders who were mining during that period (replacing mining with forging), then everyone would be incentivized to mine whether or not they were the individual node that achieved consensus and stake would just dictate your proportional share of the payout. So the raspberry pi stuff is basically a gimmick because someone actually mining with a raspberry pi, unless they have a very large amount of NXT statistically isn't going to be rewarded, and you can't even pool effectively since the secret (which gives control of the entire account) must be sent to the pool operator for them to be able to forge on your behalf which is the same as giving them to the pool operator and hoping that they give them back along with your share of what was earned. I would really like to see a focus on solving problems, setting long term bounties to bring about specific outcomes in the ecosystem (like "A wallet that achieves more than 200,000 concurrent users before March 2016". Take the problem "There aren't enough people using NXT and our wallets need to be better", look ahead and see what the solution looks like "somebody who designed a wallet that is being widely adopted and used" and then take a big pile of NXT, stick it in a fund marked THIS 200,000NXT CAN ONLY BE RELEASED WHEN THE FOLLOWING CONDITION IS MET: REWARDED TO THE TEAM THAT CREATES THE WALLET THAT HAS 200,000 CONCURRENT USERS BEFORE MARCH 2016, and then you put this up on a big page and announce it as broadly as possible. Over time, the reward will become more valuable because people will be building towards those bounty/goals, so the 200,000NXT becomes a bigger magnet for ecosystem growth the more people work towards it. Towards the end it will become obvious who the frontrunners are, so this is why it's important to have a long term bounty system that extends say, 5 years with defined-outcome goals. The power of the computer needed to mine is not an unimportant thing. The difference in price between the computers used to forge nxt and the price of the asics used to mine bitcoin is savings for the user. So lets say its 1/100th the cost but 1/100th as secure than you would be right in that we arnt really getting anything out of that on net. However if the security is even similar than thats a huge benefit. As for the issue of there being incentive to pool, its not clear that there is anyway to do pools. You can have your coins held by a castodian but thats a huge counteracting incentive pushing away from pooling. And if there were a way to do trustless pools than that is probably a problem that would be solved by DAC's which would mean that they would have open source code and we could know that that they would not work against the interest of the network. So then the last question is, if we arnt pooling why would people forge at all, and the answer to that will come from technology devises like trezors that sign transactions and blocks without displaying the private key. Devices like these will make it so that there is 0 cost to forging. Meaning that even though the chance is slim that you will win that "lottery" there will be no reason at all not to play. Also i like the idea about a bounty for a wallet. that may fall into the bailiwick of the techdev committee. thanks for the idea. |
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If you'd rather, I can interview the guy who is representing you at Coinsummit, or Kris. I don't think it was a very good interview, were you talking to people on chat between answers, or typing our your response before speaking? I was trying to figure that out lol.
yea i was just trying to organize my thoughts. stepheny said it was fine because it would just be cut out anyway. sorry about making more work for you. by the guy at coin summit you mean tai zen? No. I think Tai Zen is trying to help but his presentation (prison or freedom) comes off a bit salesy since he is a sales guy. You guys need evangelists like Ethereum has who can paint the big picture and help people see the ways they could use NXT to make their lives better. Pursue any use-cases you can like crazy, those are what will make your platform actually matter - early interesting and successful usecases. did you ever see my interviews with tai zen? |
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I think more than anything NXT suffers from lack of people who have both a deep knowledge of the project and who have strong presentation skills. You have some people in your group who have good presentation skills (like Kris) but who feel out of depth when it comes to technical stuff.
Anybody I talk to needs to be able to explain to my why it's not an insanely bad tradeoff to not have a wallet.dat and to require a very difficult to remember, unique brainwallet to be entered for every action. That is by far the biggest barrier to actual use, and I've yet to hear a good solution.
haha im afraid i cant explain that to you because i personally feel that it is infact an insanely bad trade off. its ok though this is something client developers can (and should) address by just going back to the good old fashioned bitcoin model of a secure password stored in the brain in addition to a local component used to protect against brute force. still yes if you concur with me that it was not a very good interview than you should probably just interview nxtminnow |
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If you'd rather, I can interview the guy who is representing you at Coinsummit, or Kris. I don't think it was a very good interview, were you talking to people on chat between answers, or typing our your response before speaking? I was trying to figure that out lol.
yea i was just trying to organize my thoughts. stepheny said it was fine because it would just be cut out anyway. sorry about making more work for you. by the guy at coin summit you mean tai zen? |
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I'm on the latest version of solaris, I issued an asset, markets look neat, sales interface is nicer than Counterparty but you have many fewer features.
Any plans for info pages for assets? what can an asset owner do with an asset besides sell it, any dividends or recovery options like callable assets?
Right now I can see using what you have for company stock but really nothing else since you don't do dividends.
are you really the "Editor-in-Chief of Let's Talk Bitcoin!"? Yes, I was just editing your interview with Stephanie the other day - It's going on Saturdays show. i hope you left out the bit about recording cops on the blockchain. it was a very bad example. embarrassingly bad. i could have just mentioned the asset exchange but i was nervous. |
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I'm on the latest version of solaris, I issued an asset, markets look neat, sales interface is nicer than Counterparty but you have many fewer features.
Any plans for info pages for assets? what can an asset owner do with an asset besides sell it, any dividends or recovery options like callable assets?
Right now I can see using what you have for company stock but really nothing else since you don't do dividends.
are you really the "Editor-in-Chief of Let's Talk Bitcoin!"? Yes, I was just editing your interview with Stephanie the other day - It's going on Saturdays show. odear  do you think it was as bad as i think it was? |
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